Well you already have a whistle blower but Trump asked another foriegn leader to get involved in american politics

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-01/donald-trump-pressed-scott-morrison-for-help-mueller-report/11562604

Apparently, he asked Scott Morrison, Australian Prime Minister, to help discredit the Meuller investigation. What help Australia could be is mote even though it was a tip from an Australian diplomat that might have led to the investigation it was the actions of Trump and others that Meuller investigated. If this is so then Trump may indeed be trying to obstruct justice and be liable to inpeachment.

For the record Downer, the diplomat involved, was formerly a conservative politician and Australian political leader and would be unlikely to side with democrats

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Downer

I told you so!

You know, it could be possible that this whole Ukraine affair could be played off by the Administration as a pursuit of criminal activity of the Bidens...whether or not that is true or nor....I could see where that angle would sell it as legitimate: You had criminal activity, or it appeared to be criminal activity, and the President simply asking the new Ukrainian President to help the U.S. with the investigation.

You know, it could be possible that this whole Ukraine affair could be played off by the Administration as a pursuit of criminal activity of the Bidens...whether or not that is true or nor....I could see where that angle would sell it as legitimate: You had criminal activity, or it appeared to be criminal activity, and the President simply asking the new Ukrainian President to help the U.S. with the investigation.

Apparently, there is an agreement between the US and the Ukraine regarding investigation of criminal activity but Trump should have had the good sense to send any requests through DOJ or State channels and what on Earth does he think Australia can contribute to the debate.

Ask yourself, why would the US be investigating the activities of a US citizen in the Ukraine. Does he think they were smuggling gas to the US and why would it be an issue at the level of President, it can only be a political issue a little tit for tat mud slingging

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trumps-ukraine-call-transcript-read-the-document

" I would like you to do us a favor though." This was the dufus response to being asked for MORE missiles. No dirt on the Biden's, No missiles? Vlad would love it as he would love the Mueller Report ripped apart and removed the blamed for Russia election interference, and laid it at the feet of the Ukraine.

Loved watching repubs twisting in knots making excuses for the dufus on TV.

There can be no excuse for this sort of behaviour, but the WH leaks like a sieve, got to be a serious security issue. I tell you that Trump is looking very insecure and these things were done before the impeachment proceedings started, what will he do now as he panics. My question is valid, how big a dill is he anyway ​these are not the actions of a smart man

Like Trump or not, security leaks at the level of the Executive Branch need to be routed-out and the perpetrators punished severely….this isn't a Demo or Repub or Libertarian thing, it is about the overall security of the U.S.: You cannot continue to extoll the virtues of "leakers" regardless of what they are leaking....a some fundamental level, this is wrong: Prosecution at the Federal level and making some examples is, unfortunately, got to happen to stop this crap.

Maybe the dufus is just as incompetent to manage his own WH as he is at everything else except lying, cheating stealing and being a big mouth dufus. I mean he puts those people around him but can't catch leakers?

Yeah he is a big fat orange DILL.

Talaniman & Paraclete: Honestly, if the White House cannot keep anything secret, I think we can forget about keeping national secrets, trade secrets, or military secrets away from the ChiComs…..with the number of leakers and the amount they leak, its just impossible to maintain confidentiality.

The WH leaks seem to revolve around scandalous bad behavior more than trade secrets and military stuff.

OP
Maybe, unlikely to side with Democrats, yes. Conservative, not so much, more like centrish.

It's funny that these articles keep popping up, Trump tries to investigate the Dems for corruption and now he's being impeached. As if asking the same people who helped provided information against him, for reasons, was a crime.

This whole thing is partisan, pick your side, I warn you though, they're both smelling like manure.

I can agree both sides both dems and repubs have agendas, nothing new there, but I think also we the public may be missing something from this impeachment thing in that the extortion of Ukraine by with holding military aid after the congress and pentagon have approved the funds and dealt with the corruption issues may be but the beginnng of a bigger problem.

Included into the released memo was the investigation on "crowdstrike", and produce a server the dufus says the Ukraine has that would undermine the entire Mueller Report in an effort to remove the reasons why sanctions have been placed on Russia by the congress. Let me remind you of the intelligence community, and Mueller himself have concluded that Russia did conduct a propaganda cyber war to help the dufus get elected (Russia if your listening), and if the dufus can clear the Russians and blame it on the Ukraine company (Crowdstrike), then he can effectively clear Vlad and his minions and free up money and businesses frozen in limbo since the election.

So not just dirt on Biden, but Russian sanctions by the US is at stake here. Would that not also justify the pardon of Paul Manafort who worked for Vlad through the Ukraine also? Of course it would and made even easier since the meme no collusion or obstruction after the Mueller Report by Barr, despite the rather obvious cover up with the rhetoric by the dufus and his sycophants to distract and fool the American people while he carries out Vlad wishes in Russia's interests. Already it's being reported that there is a deal in the works between the Ukraine and Russia that allows Vlad to claim peace and end the 5 year war, while he keeps Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, and frees his money and allows him to do business again.

So yeah you can pick whatever side you want, but be cautious of what side Vlad is on.

So yeah you can pick whatever side you want, but be cautious of what side Vlad is on.

Vlad is on the side of Vlad, and as you may have noticed, Brer Vlad, he lay low. What I say is let the ethnic russians do what ethnic russians do. Ukraine is actually two countries divided by a big river and people on each side of the river think differently.

I think Vlad is on the side which will favour Russia and if incidently that is Trump because he opposes an enemy of Russia in HC then that is the way it is

Like the south, the Soviets are trying to rise again. They both want the dufus to help.

Paraclete: It is time for the relationship between Russia and the U.S. to change....the period of time from 1945 - 1990 constituted the "Cold War" years....that time was driven by communist subversion all around the world and orchestrated, mostly, out of Moscow.....so, given these facts, anyone can understand why the U.S.-Russian relationship suffered during those years. However, Russian hasn't been Bolshevik since 1990....29 years ago....I think its about time that we stop treating Russia like WE OUGHT TO BE TREATING THE TRUE THREAT: THE CHICOMS!

Russia and the U.S. should be trading partners. Russian mineral wealth far surpasses that of any other nation and the U.S. needs to find sources of exotic minerals.

Russian attitudes towards terrorism is well noted: We have that in common with them.

Our whole foreign policy when it comes to Russia is ANTIQUATED beyond measure and it should change.

Paraclete: It is time for the relationship between Russia and the U.S. to change....the period of time from 1945 - 1990 constituted the "Cold War" years....that time was driven by communist subversion all around the world and orchestrated, mostly, out of Moscow.....so, given these facts, anyone can understand why the U.S.-Russian relationship suffered during those years. However, Russian hasn't been Bolshevik since 1990....29 years ago....I think its about time that we stop treating Russia like WE OUGHT TO BE TREATING THE TRUE THREAT: THE CHICOMS!

Russia and the U.S. should be trading partners. Russian mineral wealth far surpasses that of any other nation and the U.S. needs to find sources of exotic minerals.

Russian attitudes towards terrorism is well noted: We have that in common with them.

Our whole foreign policy when it comes to Russia is ANTIQUATED beyond measure and it should change.

There was a brief flowering of a relationship, but then the US did what the US does and started criticising and pushing their influence into places which were traditional russian sphere of influence. The Ukraine is a case in point and a contentious issue, Georgia is no doubt another as no doubt is Poland

Vlad runs one of the biggest criminal enterprises in the world and the dufus wants in. Have you read Vlads book, "How to make your opposition disappear". It's a DIY must read. When you talk corruption in the Ukraine, you're talking Vlad.

Talaniman: Vlad is getting older now.....he won't be "in charge" forever......he may be all of the things you say but he operates a huge apparatus that thirsts for improvements because even he knows that the people have a breaking point: The 29 years since the fall of Bolshevism have been glorious but also sad...glorious to have gotten out of communism but sad because their progress has been muted and mutated by the Oligarchs and the "apparatus" of, still, Central Government.

Like Trump or not (I KNOW YOU DESPISE HIM!), he did try to change the nature of the Russian-U.S. relationship...I don't know the reasons for it, but the effort was there...the Russia Investigation effectively put a monkey wrench into that effort, however.

Despite all the obstacles, people in power being the main one, the U.S.-Russia relationship needs to improve......it should be a long term goal.

For any healthy relationship between people, or nations in this case, there must be healthy people. Vlad is a criminal, and the dufus is a liar and cheater who disrespects the law and everyone else for his own gain. That's not a good combination for either nation in my estimation, so while I agree the relationship must improve, I don't see two criminals improving it. You can't build a campfire in a rainstorm.

Can't do much about Vlad, but we can deal with the dufus, and do better ourselves.

What help Australia could be is mote


I didn't read everyone comments ,but you must be kidding . The American intelligence agencies recruited Alexander Downer in their sting of Papadopoulos . You know it and I know it .

What a coincidence that he happened to meet Papadopoulos in a bar where he learned from the drunken braggart the information Joe Mifsud planted into his brain … that the Russians has "dirt " on Evita.

What did Downer do with the info ? Did he follow protocol ? Did he get authorization from Turnbull to breach accepted protocol ? From what I understand ,the FBI learned of this directly from Downer and not the usual chain of command of the 5 eyes agreement which says that

any intelligence goes through the intelligence system of the country that gathered it.

But Downer decided to directly report the info to the American Embassy in London. Why ? Don't you think that should be cleared up ? What a coincidence that Downer's report ended up in the hand of embassy’s charge d’affaires, Elizabeth Dibble, who previously served as a principal deputy assistant secretary in Evita's State Department.

When ASIO eventually got it's hands on Downers memo ,it was shelved because they thought it was nonsense . Did Downer disclose any classified information to the American embassy ? There are questions that need to be answered ;and like Ukraine ,I'm certain that the US and the Aussies have a treaty to assist each other in criminal investigations .

I didn't read everyone comments ,but you must be kidding . The American intelligence agencies recruited Alexander Downer in their sting of Papadopoulos . You know it and I know it .

What a coincidence that he happened to meet Papadopoulos in a bar where he learned from the drunken braggart the information Joe Mifsud planted into his brain … that the Russians has "dirt " on Evita.

What did Downer do with the info ? Did he follow protocol ? Did he get authorization from Turnbull to breach accepted protocol ? From what I understand ,the FBI learned of this directly from Downer and not the usual chain of command of the 5 eyes agreement which says that

any intelligence goes through the intelligence system of the country that gathered it.

But Downer decided to directly report the info to the American Embassy in London. Why ? Don't you think that should be cleared up ? What a coincidence that Downer's report ended up in the hand of embassy’s charge d’affaires, Elizabeth Dibble, who previously served as a principal deputy assistant secretary in Evita's State Department.

When ASIO eventually got it's hands on Downers memo ,it was shelved because they thought it was nonsense . Did Downer disclose any classified information to the American embassy ? There are questions that need to be answered ;and like Ukraine ,I'm certain that the US and the Aussies have a treaty to assist each other in criminal investigations .



Let us agree that Downer is not the smartest kid on the block, however, in his position information gathering, including disinformation gathering, was part of his role, however, he was our representative to the UK, so what were the US and particularly someone part of Trump's campaign, up to in the UK? No one has asked this question. Australia is party to a five part agreement on intelligence gathering so any information is fair game and reporting it to the americans a matter of course. What the americans choose to do with it is anyone's guess. Obviously the whole US intelligence network leeks like a sieve so if you want anyone to know anything you tell the americans.

Australia is party to a five part agreement on intelligence gathering so any information is fair game and reporting it to the americans a matter of course.
Not true I know that Aussie protocol does not allow anyone to report to a foreign government . The information had to be funneled through your government ;specifically your ASIO.

We really don't know the specific of how things were handled, few stand on formality in real life sometimes. No telling how these personal relationships go, but it's a small point since we know for sure election campaigns are always looking for dirt, scandals and gossip to smear an opponent with. The dufus takes dirt from anybody whether it's true or not. He said so, and has done so. Fact is he will scam, sham, bamboozle and lie to gain advantage of a buck. He has done that many documented times before. He is still doing it now.

That's the point, not minor technicalities.

Not true I know that Aussie protocol does not allow anyone to report to a foreign government . The information had to be funneled through your government ;specifically your ASIO.

Do you think Downer didn't inform ASIO

but you know what these back channels are like

Do you think Downer didn't inform ASIO

but you know what these back channels are like
yes he did ;and when they shelved the report as so much baloney ,he went to the Americans with the info. What we really need to find out is if Downer was working as a foreign agent of the American Intelligence agencies . That is why Trump is asking Morrison to investigate .

yes he did ;and when they shelved the report as so much baloney ,he went to the Americans with the info. What we really need to find out is if Downer was working as a foreign agent of the American Intelligence agencies . That is why Trump is asking Morrison to investigate .


Seriously, your conspiracy theories are getting out of hand, Downer was sent to London to party, it is what he does best, you might say it is his only ability, and to get him out of the way, which is what we do with failed politicians. Look if you would like to replace some of yours I'm sure we could persuade Rudd, Gillard and Turnbull to drop in.

Tom, Maybe Downer was fed a line of bull from the Trump campaign to see where it landed

nope ....it was just NOT a coincidence that he ended up in the same bar as Papadopoulos . A lot of this we know already . The FBI sent an "investigator " who called herself Azra Turk ,to seduce and steer Papadopoulos to have a meeting in Rome with the so called Maltese professor Joe Mifsud . Then if we are supposed to believe what we are told ;Downer just happens to waltz into The Kensington Wine Rooms and strikes up a conversation with Papadopoulos about Evita . What a coincidence !!! Downer has said “I asked him whether he thought Donald Trump would be able to defeat Hillary Clinton in the general election,”.........“He said he was confident he could. He said one of the reasons was that the Russians might release some information which could be damaging to Hillary Clinton.”

Did he follow proper channels ? Not according to this report :


The government’s defence of its decision comes after revelations in Guardian Australia on Wednesday that Alexander Downer took the then prime minister, Malcolm Turnbull, and senior colleagues by surprise when he relayed information to the American chargé d’affaires in London in July 2016 about his now infamous conversation with George Papadopoulos (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/17/alexander-downers-secret-meeting-with-fbi-led-to-trump-russia-inquiry-report), then a foreign policy adviser to Trump.
Guardian Australia understands Downer’s conversation with Papadopoulos was recorded in a diplomatic cable back to Canberra.
But the first senior players in Canberra knew of Downer’s conversation with America’s top diplomat in London about Russia obtaining damaging information about Hillary Clinton from her emails was when the Australian government was contacted subsequently by the Federal Bureau of Investigation for more information. That diplomat-to-diplomat conversation, sources insist, was unauthorised.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/oct/01/downers-relaying-of-conversation-with-trump-aide-caught-pm-and-colleagues-by-surprise

Of course it was unauthorized, that's what plausible deniability is all about. That's why taking anybody's version of the truth as gospel and drawing conclusions from them is faulty. You know that as well as I do Tomder, because people can say one thing to the media, while quite another under oath. If it's not under oath it just ain't gospel, may not be true or the complete truth. The devil is always in the details you don't know, and that's where we get speculation, opinion, and assumptions that are entirely circumstantial.

Anything that comes from the dufus as an example, or his sycophants, requires massive quantities of salt. A spoon full of sugar won't make any of this go down any easier given HISTORY. The real problem is ignoring HISTORY.

The real problem is ignoring HISTORY.

Who's history is that Tal. Are you saying there is plenty of history of interference in US elections or of Democrat disinformation campaigns?

Let's keep it simple and just focus on the dufus history Clete. A very long line of lying, cheating, stealing, bullying and bluster, many lawsuits, and underhanded dealing and covering it up.

Oh you mean someone's invented history, bull and bluster

The dufus didn't invent his history but cultivated it over the years, and is quite proud of being a crook. He said so.

But how do you know? because of what is reported or invented in the media

No he said so. "I alone can fix it" among his other utterances, though he lies all the time, and his lawsuits and antics are well right before your eyes, a matter of record. Now if you rather believe him, and not the media, then that's okay by the dufus too! What has the media INVENTED about the dufus?

No he said so. "I alone can fix it" among his other utterances, though he lies all the time, and his lawsuits and antics are well right before your eyes, a matter of record. Now if you rather believe him, and not the media, then that's okay by the dufus too! What has the media INVENTED about the dufus?

How would you know? Pilate asked what is truth? I may well ask the same. Yes Trump has trumpetted his brilliance for all to see and been found wanting, so this makes him a fool

Watch out for the feint.....the scattered Red Herrings.....Harry Reid just warned you not to underestimate Trump.....Its always the punch you don't see that knocks you out!

There once was a man of meager means who got a janitorial job at a steel mill producing exotic alloys....he barely spoke and his communication skills were lacking.....he simply came to work, on time, every day, and he always volunteered to pull overtime and work weekends....he worked at the mill for three and a half years....one day he didn't come to work....he didn't collect his last paycheck....his room that he lived in was just the way he left it, nothing taken, as if he simply dropped off the earth.....A few years later, an Engineer employed by the steel mill went to interview at a competitor steel mill halfway across the country....as he sat in the lobby, someone walked past him that he though he recognized....later in the day, during the course of the interview, as part of the interview process, he sat down for a one-on-one with a "James Smith PhD...as he came into the luxurious office3 of James Smith he finally recognized the man he saw in the lobby, it was THE JANITOR!

You can be fooled....everyone can be fooled.

You can be fooled....everyone can be fooled.


Especially you, V7.

Your example is preposterous and makes no sense. Trump is a madman and he gets worse with each criticism - a symptom of malignant narcissism. Psychiatrists across the nation are in agreement about Trump's mental disability. His public behavior says it all.

Here's the truth that you avoid as you consistently defend Trump even tho you deny supporting him.

"There is merit in mental health professionals making observations - and an evaluation would be helpful. However, 3-plus years of his tweets and unscripted rallies offer more evidence than a two day psychiatric exam ever could. Contextual psychosis alone is enough."

look we know he suffers from dillusions, such a pity he has to share them with us

Athos: I led off by say that Harry Reid (the Democrat from Nevada Harry Reid) warned not to underestimate Trump.

The story about the Janitor is true: Simply legal Industrial Espionage.....he stole everything, every process that the plant had in production.

Still, you say I SUPPORT Trump! Come on, I don't: I am pointing out the bear traps that lay all around the left....all these traps set by Trump.

You say Trump is a madman....maybe he is or maybe he is not, but you believe he is and some doctors probably believe that, too, based upon content of what he says......BUT: When did being a madman ever preclude someone from being very charismatic, very smooth, very convincing, or, even, very sneaky.....and being an educated people, a people steeped in culture, a people rich in scientific endeavors or any thing like these attributes prevent a madman from gaining control: You only have to look back to 1920's-30's Germany to see this as a real possibility! Trump being a screwball means nothing to him getting elected, AGAIN!

The story about the Janitor is true: Simply legal Industrial Espionage.....he stole everything, every process that the plant had in production.

And this fits Trump how????


I am pointing out the bear traps that lay all around the left....all these traps set by Trump.

Please name the traps set by Trump.


Trump being a screwball means nothing to him getting elected, AGAIN!

It means EVERYTHING to those doing the electing!!

Athos: The story is another example of how you can judge a person wrongly....and get surprised.

The bear traps are demonstrated by the various "predictions" of Trump's demise and the absolute arrogance of the left in thinking he is an idiot: That same idiot beat the left the last POTUS Election while the left's media was predicting he would lose....short memories are not what you want right now......sounds like the left likes to replay the same old song.

I agree about the electors: The IQ of the voters in not so swift and its getting worse....but its what we have to work with.

So the dufus is invincible and we are wasting our time and should just bend the knee, kiss his ring and let him run roughshod over our democracy. Naw, I would rather go down swinging if you don't mind. I have said we deserve what we got, and he sure surprised everybody including himself, but now that we know what we got, I hope we can do better.

All hands on deck!

The bear traps are demonstrated by the various "predictions" of Trump's demise and the absolute arrogance of the left in thinking he is an idiot: That same idiot beat the left the last POTUS Election while the left's media was predicting he would lose...


It is becoming more and more apparent that Trump won due to Russian interference. Syria is most likely payback. Time will tell if I'm right.

Anyway, the polls predicting Trump would lose the popular vote were correct! Hillary Clinton beat Trump by nearly 3,000,000 votes!

It is becoming more and more apparent that Trump won due to Russian interference. Syria is most likely payback. Time will tell if I'm right.

Anyway, the polls predicting Trump would lose the popular vote were correct! Hillary Clinton beat Trump by nearly 3,000,000 votes!

Except the election wasn't decided by who got the most votes, it was decided on who had the greatest support throughout the states. You see the election cannot be won by voters in a few populous states. Tell me if you can, how did the Russians influence so many people? there may be evidence they influenced a few people but the whole of the country? That is drawing a long bow

In addition to the Mueller Report, (https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/18/politics/full-mueller-report-pdf/index.html) which lays out very explicitly the scope and extent of Russian interference, names and indicts specific Russian military and intelligence officers, there is also the just released bipartisan Senate Report that confirms that Russia indeed did interfere on the 2016 and 2018 election, and no doubt will do it again through proxy and social media propaganda.

The dufus won the Electoral College by less than 100,000 votes in 5 key states. Yes turnout was down also, so it was a perfect storm and we have the dufus but Russian cyber interference was traced to nearly every state, and it's well documented and we have a whole thread with links on this forum. Most peoples eyes glazed over, but it was a comprehensive and detailed piece of work that sadly most people didn't read, or worse UNDERSTAND.

This is a good simplified version. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mueller_Report)

Tell me if you can, how did the Russians influence so many people? there may be evidence they influenced a few people but the whole of the country?


They only needed to influence a minimum number of voters in three key states - not "the whole of the country". This is very basic stuff. If you don't understand it by now, you're probably the only one on the planet who doesn't, and you probably never will.

Short of a Russian pointing an AK-47 at a member of my family and forcing me to "pull the lever" for Trump, there is no way in hades that I am going to read a newspaper article, a magazine article, an internet article, watch a YouTube video, watch a television new program, or any of that nonsense and be swayed to vote for Trump or any other POTUS, Congressional, or Senatorial candidate: Yes, I know the U.S. is quickly being overrun by "SHEEPLE" who are simply unthinking, non-logic driven, brain-dead drones, but we aren't quite dead, just yet: We still, some of us, possess cognitive reasoning. If the Russians could supply some of those beautiful women to every American male, hell, we might even vote for Putin, himself, as POTUS (by and large, we are pretty weak that way)!

I truly think the Democrats just ran a HORRIBLE candidate against Trump and got beat, plain and simple.

Winning the popular vote by 1% is no where near the BLOWOUT/LANDSLIDE predicted by the polls.....so, the POLLS were, still, actually, wrong.

Polls have varying degrees of margin for error. Not focusing on some midwestern states as the dufus did hurt too I think. We get another chance at this soon if they don't dump the dufus before then...or AFTER! The dufus is the incumbent now so that makes it even more of a challenge and we still have those pesky Ruskies, no doubt having gotten better at whatever they did before.

What a world!

Short of a Russian pointing an AK-47 at a member of my family and forcing me to "pull the lever" for Trump, there is no way in hades that I am going to read a newspaper article, a magazine article, an internet article, watch a YouTube video, watch a television new program, or any of that nonsense and be swayed to vote for Trump or any other POTUS, Congressional, or Senatorial candidate:

The power of persuasion via various media is well-known and those most susceptible are the ones who deny it. Why do you think advertising is so powerful? Read The Hidden Persuaders - the bible for this area.


I truly think the Democrats just ran a HORRIBLE candidate against Trump and got beat, plain and simple.

That HORRIBLE candidate beat Trump, plain and simple, by THREE MILLION votes! How do you explain that?


the POLLS were, still, actually, wrong.

The polls were, ACTUALLY, correct. Are you blind?

Turnout
55.7%[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election#cite_note-turnout-1) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/Increase2.svg/17px-Increase2.svg.png 0.8 pp (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentage_point)





https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Donald_Trump_official_portrait_%28cropped%29.jpg/217px-Donald_Trump_official_portrait_%28cropped%29.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Donald_Trump_official_portrait_(cropped).jpg)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/Hillary_Clinton_by_Gage_Skidmore_2.jpg/202px-Hillary_Clinton_by_Gage_Skidmore_2.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hillary_Clinton_by_Gage_Skidmore_2.jpg)


Nominee
Donald Trump (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump)
Hillary Clinton (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton)



Party
Republican (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Party_(United_States))
Democratic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_(United_States))


Home state
New York (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_(state))
New York (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_(state))


Running mate
Mike Pence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Pence)
Tim Kaine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Kaine)


Electoral vote
304[a] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election#cite_note-pledged-2)
227[a] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election#cite_note-pledged-2)


States carried
30 + ME-02 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election_in_Maine)
20 + DC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election_in_the_Di strict_of_Columbia)


Popular vote
62,984,828
65,853,514


Percentage
46.1%
48.2%

I think you just made my point

I think you just made my point

That Hillary won by three million votes?

Paraclete is correct: The Constitution takes care of this problem with the strength of the Electoral College....the system is set up this way so that the "Urban" populations don't run the whole Election process.....otherwise, you end up with a miserable system where the Urbanites are the UPPER CLASS and the un-Urbanites are the serfs.....If you allowed just the popular vote to control the process, you would end up with what you have in a very miserable state like New York, where N.Y. City control who gets elected Governor and Senators and the rest of the state has no say in the process, effectively....in fact, many New Yorkers I know despise N.Y. City because they control the rest of the state....its quite a divisive system in N.Y. that breed contempt.

If you are against the Electoral Process, I think it is fair to say you are against the U.S. Constitution.....The Constitution is a divine, Sacred document that should not, ever, be monkeyed with, no matter how it affects what result YOU want: The Constitution is BIGGER THAN YOUR WANTS and it needs to stay that way....its the only protection we have in place that keeps us from becoming a land of slaves to those ensconced in power!

.

If you are against the Electoral Process, I think it is fair to say you are against the U.S. Constitution.....The Constitution is a divine, Sacred document that should not, ever, be monkeyed with, no matter how it affects what result YOU want: The Constitution is BIGGER THAN YOUR WANTS and it needs to stay that way....its the only protection we have in place that keeps us from becoming a land of slaves to those ensconced in power!

Hold on a moment Vac, the Constitution is not divine or God breathed Scripture, it is a contruct of man and should not be elevated above that status. Many nations have achieved democracy without the limitations of the US Constitution and the only nation that had difficulty abolishing slavery is the one ruled by the US Constitution

Can't argue with that logic Clete, but if you read it you may find it aspires to more than the men that wrote it, and gives a young nation something to grow into. Admittedly we are slow on that path Slow is okay if you eventually get it right and make progress forward. Naw we ain't perfect, but we strive to be, and mistakes along the way can be corrected. Maybe not in the this election, but it's another one coming.

Is there another nation on Earth that's so connected to the rest of the nations? Not really, So in order to form a more perfect union, we just have to keep working at it. That doesn't mean we think we are the only great nation, but we do shoot for being the greatest nation among many great nations.

The experiment continues.

Talaniman: You stated it much better than I ever could! THANK YOU!

The Constitution takes care of this problem with the strength of the Electoral College....the system is set up this way so that the "Urban" populations don't run the whole Election process.....otherwise, you end up with a miserable system where the Urbanites are the UPPER CLASS and the un-Urbanites are the serfs

The Electoral College was established in the late 18th century when the nation was overwhelmingly agricultural, not urban.


If you are against the Electoral Process, I think it is fair to say you are against the U.S. Constitution.....The Constitution is a divine, Sacred document that should not, ever, be monkeyed with

The US Constitution has been "monkeyed with" 27 times! You really need to read some history and stop posting nonsense here. Also, it is hardly a "divine, Sacred document". More nonsense.

Madison and Hamilton expected the Electoral College to protect the nation from demagogues or those not qualified to be president by ensuring the electors were men of quality. Over the years, the rules changes so that the Electoral College actually ensured we would get the worst demagogue in American history - Donald Trump, an unhinged nutcase who needs only to be seen for his actions this week to verify his madness.

Athos: Urban residents have no more rights than do rural ones.....The Electoral College puts it all on a level playing field so that one minded, brainwashed urbanites don't take sole control of the country....that is one feature of its greatness..

Adding Amendments is ENTIRELY different than taking something away from the Constitution: "Monkeyed With" means that you aren't going to put your greasy fingers into and strip something out of it! That HAS NEVER BEEN DONE!

The Constitution is DIVINE because it is obviously written by men of divine wisdom: If you don't think so, fine....but most agree it is the MOST PERFECT PROTECTION FOR HUMAN RIGHTS EVER WRITTEN: IT IS DIVINE, by that standard! And it is SACRED in that it should not be fooled with by UNDIVINE individual LIKE YOU AND ME!

Changing the Electoral College because you don't LIKE THE POTUS that now resides in the White House is not nearly enough reason to change it: DREAM ON!

Athos: Urban residents have no more rights than do rural ones.....The Electoral College puts it all on a level playing field so that one minded, brainwashed urbanites don't take sole control of the country....that is one feature of its greatness..

So now we have one minded brainwashed rural non-urbanites taking sole control. Plus the fact that you said it was "set up" this way. Did you lie then or are you lying now? Do you know?


"Monkeyed With" means that you aren't going to put your greasy fingers into and strip something out of it!

Thank you for that technical definition. (I sometimes wonder why I bother replying to you).


The Constitution is DIVINE because it is obviously written by men of divine wisdom: If you don't think so, fine....but most agree it is the MOST PERFECT PROTECTION FOR HUMAN RIGHTS EVER WRITTEN: IT IS DIVINE, by that standard! And it is SACRED in that it should not be fooled with by UNDIVINE individual LIKE YOU AND ME!

Complete and utter rubbish!! How do people like you get computers?


Changing the Electoral College because you don't LIKE THE POTUS that now resides in the White House is not nearly enough reason to change it: DREAM ON!

It sure as hell shows the weakness of the Electoral College. But I wouldn't expect you to understand that.

Athos: Come on, get off your high horse: The likes of me and you couldn't carry the bags of our Founding Fathers.....we/us/me/you/anybody alive today would have about as much business trying to second guess what the Founding Fathers created as would a Neanderthal trying to solve a Calculus problem. We are mere mortals.....the F.F. created a living document and a legacy that will live on long after we turn to dust.

Your problem is that YOUR GAL, Mrs. Hillary, didn't win....mainly because she couldn't campaign her way out of a paper bag: SHE SUCKED AS A CANDIDATE!.....plain and simple.....and, now, you and a few others like you (and I mean that, most people are pretty tired of the endless plots being hatched) think that you can overturn the election.....you blame the election process, of which the Electoral College is part of, and you zero in on that as being "the problem".....you range from one day blaming the evil RUSSIAN-TRUMP collusion partnership to the next day blaming the Electoral College.

Yeah, the U.S. CONSTITUTION IS DIVINE: No one you or I know could have written it....it took heavenly intervention to develop this document.....it is so perfect that is to be protected, therefore it is sacred.

Got a news flash for you, Athos: Whether you like it or you don't like it, you best learn to love it: THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE IS HERE TO STAY! Do you know why its going to stay? Because it will be protected by the American People....in the end, the U.S. CONSTITUTION protects the people and the people will always return the favor and protect the Constitution from the likes of people like you.

Dill, like most herbs, can be grown pretty much anywhere and can withstand both heat and cool weather. Dill will tolerate partial shade; in light shade, the plants won't get as bushy as in full sun, so they can be closer together. It can also be grown in the greenhouse if you provide a container large enough for its roots a, at least 6-8 inches in diameter, and pot it in rich soil.

https://www.buzzmyblog.com/black-friday-dedicated-server-deals/

Dill, like most herbs, can be grown pretty much anywhere and can withstand both heat and cool weather. Dill will tolerate partial shade; in light shade, the plants won't get as bushy as in full sun, so they can be closer together. It can also be grown in the greenhouse if you provide a container large enough for its roots a, at least 6-8 inches in diameter, and pot it in rich soil.

https://www.buzzmyblog.com/black-friday-dedicated-server-deals/

Thanks for the gardening lesson, now tell us what to do when the dill becomes weed and takes over The White House

Sure there is a great dissapointment that HC lost, Vac, but for sure their was also a GREATER dissappointment that the dufus won. I mean he was a liar and cheater before the election, and the power of the presidency magnified that greatly. What's disturbing for me was the embrace of such a loud mouth bully blowhard by so many, as he did what many feared he would do, blow up the party and replace it with his own image, or run it like a family business surroundeed by yes men and sycophants and even corrupts former heroes to do his own bidding. Doing and saying the wrong things has become normal and accepted with plenty of support.

Just for a statement of fact, the founders gave the congress the responsibility and duty to balance the executive branch in policy and law making as well as OVERSIGHT, and the impeachment process is a part of the constitution. It's the law of the land, and that's the way we get DILLS out of the WH. So even if there is a landslide election of a president he can still be removed.

I was there and saw it happen.

Talaniman: Few would argue, I think not you nor Athos, or anyone else, that Richard M. Nixon was a man driven by ideology, not self-serving ambitions of enriching himself: Nixon was a tragedy because he ruined what he could have been and what he could have accomplished for the nation...Nixon certainly didn't line his pockets or, at least, do that to the magnitude other POTUS have (albeit the humble and malevolent Jimmy Carter he absolutely did not)…..Maybe Nixon was a scoundrel but a totally different kind of scoundrel than the kind of which you assert is Trump. I get the Constitutional Crisis of the Watergate Era but that was a different prism of view from what is going on now...I know you say Trump is all about self-enrichment.....Nixon was all about helping friends but, at his core, he wanted what was best for the country.....otherwise he would have stayed in Office through the Impeachment phase but he knew it wasn't good for the country: Don't you agree?

I am afraid I must disagree. If Nixon thought his landslide victory and popularity with the people and his party would get him through he may have stayed, but many repubs told him he would be impeached and better if he resigned. Maybe they all knew an impeachment trail wouldn't be good for the country, and maybe it would have been much worse for Nixon, as charging a president with crimes is disgraceful for everybody, headed off by Fords pardon. Ford was the vice after Agnew resigned in disgrace if you remember. No Nixon was caught and all his antics FAILED to keep him in power, so he really had no choice, but for the good of the country speech made him look better I suppose.

Nixon had a history of accomplishment, the dufus does not. Sure it's a different time, and different repubs, different country maybe, but the dufus is no Nixon, although after winning a second term you would have to be pretty dumb to pull the stunts he did, but he was pulling stunts before it just wasn't public. (https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21768668)

So I have to disagree he resigned for the good of the country, he was just covering his own arse after being caught.

Don't you agree?

No, I don't agree. Nixon was ego-driven, not ideology driven. His opening to China was a good thing in my opinion, but I assume you don't think so, China being CHICOM and all that.

After the tapes were revealed to the public, the world discovered Nixon was a crook. Very early on, he knew what was going in re Watergate, but relied on deniability. He was part and parcel of the cover-up. A serious crime. In an interview with David Frost, he stated "When the president does it, it's not a crime". This basic misunderstanding of law is what brought him down. It led to the cover-up, the Daniel Ellsberg break-in, the hush money payments, and ordering the FBI to stop investigating Watergate - among other crimes.

As Tal said, he didn't resign to save the country. He resigned to avoid the shame of impeachment and conviction.

Nixon also had an enemies list - a scary thing for a president to have especially when it contained good upstanding US citizens.

Athos & Talaniman: Nixon MADE a lot of enemies from the 40's and 50's with HUAC....so there were trails of Bolsheviks out to stick a dagger in him because he sure as heck nailed a lot of them, especially their hero Alger Hiss. Nixon was highly intelligent, according to Bill Clinton, who, himself, was a road scholar. I tend to give more leeway to highly intelligent people when it comes to high crimes.

Athos & Talaniman: Nixon MADE a lot of enemies from the 40's and 50's with HUAC....so there were trails of Bolsheviks out to stick a dagger in him because he sure as heck nailed a lot of them, especially their hero Alger Hiss. Nixon was highly intelligent, according to Bill Clinton, who, himself, was a road scholar. I tend to give more leeway to highly intelligent people when it comes to high crimes.

I notice you went off on a tangent and did not respond to a single thing tal or I wrote. Did you ever get your money back from Trump University where they had a course in Changing The Subject 101.

Yeah there may be a difference between a dumb crook and a smart one, but geez ain't they both crooks?

Talaniman: Yes, must admit, they are both crooks....just prefer the smart ones.:)!

Athos: I am not in you gentlemen's league when it comes to refined arguments but if you will please keep beating knots on my head, I will get better, maybe! I do appreciate the lessons, in all sincerity!