Can anyone provide a quote from the Bible where it is stated that unbelievers are condemned to hell for eternal punishment?

The quote must contain the following:
1- "Unbelievers", not a word that may or not mean Unbelievers.
2- "Condemned", a euphemism meaning the exact same thing is acceptable. NOTE: "Perish", for example, does NOT have the same meaning.
3- "Hell", an equivalent word for an afterlife for unbelievers is acceptable.
4- "Eternal punishment", both words are necessary, OR an absolute equivalent.

If you believe this saying without providing proof, please explain why you believe it. Thank you.

How are "perish" and "condemned" different in meaning?

How are "perish" and "condemned" different in meaning?


"Perish" means to die, cease to exist. "Condemned" means to pronounce judgement unfavorably, to censure, to sentence (often to death or life imprisonment).

So when it says in John 3:16, "so that whoever believes and trusts in Him [as Savior] shall not perish, but have eternal life," does the word "perish" in that text have the same meaning of "to die, cease to exist", so as to mean that those who do not believe in Christ are in danger of dying and ceasing to exist?

If it does, then that means our language has changed and the meaning of "perish" has narrowed over the last couple of centuries.
But I'm not so sure "perish" carries that narrow of a meaning.

So when it says in John 3:16, "so that whoever believes and trusts in Him [as Savior] shall not perish, but have eternal life," does the word "perish" in that text have the same meaning of "to die, cease to exist", so as to mean that those who do not believe in Christ are in danger of dying and ceasing to exist?


The meaning that you refer to - "... so that those who do not believe in Christ are in danger of dying and ceasing to exist?" is not warranted by the words in context.

The simplest explanation to your question is that the quote does not address unbelievers directly so the words cannot be used to definitively describe what happens to those who do not believe. Occam's Razor.

Secondly, there are dozens of uses of the word "perish" in the Bible. Only once does it carry the connotation of eternal punishment and that usage is clearly noted as metaphorical - i.e, not to be taken literally.

The meaning that you refer to - "... so that those who do not believe in Christ are in danger of dying and ceasing to exist?" is not warranted by the words in context.

The text reads, "that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life." Plainly it is talking about people who are perishing who, through believing on Jesus, will have eternal life rather than perish. So who is it who is going to perish, and what does it mean that they "should not perish"? Does it mean they will cease to exist?

And if you go on to look at verse 18, Jesus changes the verb from "perish" to "judged". Same people, but a different verb, so is "perish" being used in the sense of someday facing judgement?

...so is "perish" being used in the sense of someday facing judgement?


You ask a question, I reply, no acknowledgment from you, you ask another question.
I reply again, no acknowledgement from you, you go on to ask yet another question.

We've already played this game on the Current Events page.

How about you just lay out what you're trying to say and then we can all proceed from there, including any Bible scholars aboard to keep us straight.

Even better, how about just answering the question that started this thread? Thank you.

Your reply was clouded in obscurity. When you say, "The simplest explanation to your question is that the quote does not address unbelievers directly so the words cannot be used to definitively describe what happens to those who do not believe," it is a ridiculous assertion and is, in fact, no explanation at all. Belief in Jesus is the entire point of John 3:16 and is presented as the solution to perishing. So the question remains, what do you believe THIS scripture is referring to when it makes the clear reference to perishing? Why are you reluctant to answer???

The original question:

Can anyone provide a quote from the Bible where it is stated that unbelievers are condemned to hell for eternal punishment?

Essentially, it was just done. "Whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish." Now if we just think about this, the very plain implication is that those who do not believe are perishing, but through faith in Christ the perishing are rescued. Even more so when verse 18 is added. "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

Now once you figure out what it means to "perish" or to be "condemned", you'll have your answer.

Might want to refer to Rev. chapter 20 for a little help.

Perish = temporal death?
Perish = eternal death?

Eternal death = oblivion?
Eternal death = hellfire?

Would a loving God condemn to eternal death those who are mentally or psychologically or emotionally ill and can't love Him in return or love others?

Your reply was clouded in obscurity. When you say, "The simplest explanation to your question is that the quote does not address unbelievers directly so the words cannot be used to definitively describe what happens to those who do not believe," it is a ridiculous assertion and is, in fact, no explanation at all. ??


I suggest you look up "Occam's Razor". That may help you understand what is meant here.

Would a loving God condemn to eternal death those who are mentally or psychologically or emotionally ill and can't love Him in return or love others?


WG, you make a very good point - the essential point. And, I would add, what about those who never heard of him?

I have never seen a rational answer to the question even after years of seeing it asked on the internet. The Catholics had something like it in a less rational time about a thousand years ago when they declared there was "no salvation outside the Catholic Church". They have long since discarded such a strange notion.

The Fundamentalists picked it up again during the late 19th century where it remains to this day believed among a handful of extreme Christians far from the mainstream.

Curiously, it is similar to fundamentalist Islamic belief in Allah where infidels are forbidden Paradise. It probably originates via a misunderstanding of the "Old Testament" Hebrew scriptures where God is portrayed as a "Jealous God".

Revealing is jlisenbe's original question on these pages where he inquires whether a woman, being a woman, is Biblically eligible for a Church position as a Sunday School leader. If a simple question like that has to be asked in the year 2018, there is not much hope that he will discard such a far stranger position as the condemnation of unbelievers to eternal punishment in hell.

I contend that the answer is to be found in the psyche of people like jlisenbe who need to strike out at a world unsatisfactory to them. This is done by assigning all others who believe differently to a horrific afterlife and, worse, to ascribe such a horrendous belief to God - in such a case, a monstrous God, hardly the loving God cited by WG.

I suggest you look up "Occam's Razor". That may help you understand what is meant here.

Already understand the concept. It actually invalidates your idea.


Revealing is jlisenbe's original question on these pages where he inquires whether a woman, being a woman, is Biblically eligible for a Church position as a Sunday School leader. If a simple question like that has to be asked in the year 2018, there is not much hope that he will discard such a far stranger position as the condemnation of unbelievers to eternal punishment in hell.

If you would trouble yourself for two seconds, you would find that I did not ask that question.

Unsurprisingly, you still are unwilling to answer the simple question of what is meant by "perish" and "condemn" in the context of the John 3 passage.

Your reply above reveals the problem. You want to understand scripture in light of modern day sensibilities. I try to never consider what this current culture might believe when attempting to understand scripture. Cultural beliefs come and go, but the truth of God's word will stand permanently. If that is not true, then why would anyone care what the Bible says?


I contend that the answer is to be found in the psyche of people like jlisenbe who need to strike out at a world unsatisfactory to them.

The only person striking out at others is you. Perhaps you are frustrated at being unable to answer simple questions, or perhaps you are plainly aware of what scripture says and simply don't like it.


Would a loving God condemn to eternal death those who are mentally or psychologically or emotionally ill and can't love Him in return or love others?

When I read your question, I immediately thought of the demon possessed man from Gadera. Still, your question is a valid one. I would think that God will judge people based upon their capabilities. None of that, of course, has any bearing on the meanings of perish and condemn.

I am convinced that the answer to many of your questions is found in the first chapter of Romans.

Why would a loving -- and omniscient -- God give mankind free will?

Will we have free will in heaven?

Why do you believe God is loving and omniscient?

Why do you believe God is loving and omniscient?
I used the article "a".

OK. So do you believe the God we are speaking of is loving and omniscient? If so, why?

OK. So do you believe the God we are speaking of is loving and omniscient? If so, why?
That's what the Bible tells us. Do I believe it? Yes. So, back to my question: Why did He give mankind free will, knowing mankind would make bad choices? Are we characters in a huge reality show? (Reminds me of the novel, New Year Island by Paul Draker.)

That's what the Bible tells us. Do I believe it? Yes.

So can we also assume you believe that those who do not believe in Christ are condemned? John 3:18.

Not trying to be a smart aleck, but just trying to see if we can establish the Bible as our source of truth as opposed to cultural beliefs.

As to your question of free will, as I'm sure you are aware it can be a thorn patch. My conviction is that unless we humans have the option of saying "no" to God, then we really don't have a true option of saying "yes". And the ability to choose is key to love, rather like a man asking for a woman's hand in marriage. If she is being forced to say yes, then her "yes" doesn't really mean anything.

And, of course, the other side of the coin bears the sovereignty of God.

So can we also assume you believe that those who do not believe in Christ are condemned? John 3:18.
But what does the Bible mean by "condemned"?


Not trying to be a smart aleck, but just trying to see if we can establish the Bible as our source of truth as opposed to cultural beliefs.
The writers were caught in their culture and time period. They had never heard of women as CEOs, public schools, cremation, or strawberry shortcake.


As to your question of free will, as I'm sure you are aware it can be a thorn patch. My conviction is that unless we humans have the option of saying "no" to God, then we really don't have a true option of saying "yes". And the ability to choose is key to love, rather like a man asking for a woman's hand in marriage. If she is being forced to say yes, then her "yes" doesn't really mean anything.
So your take on heaven is that we will still have free will. And it will all start all over again. (Hopefully, then, I will remember the bad choices I made the first time around, and make good ones instead.)


And, of course, the other side of the coin bears the sovereignty of God.
I have no idea what you mean.

The writers were caught in their culture and time period. They had never heard of women as CEOs, public schools, cremation, or strawberry shortcake.a

At some point you have to make up your mind. Either the Bible trumps the culture, or the other way around. Besides, I don't think your premise is entirely correct. Lydia had her own business and the church met in her house. Priscilla seemed to be preferred in her ministry role over her husband. The description of the "ideal woman/wife" in Proverbs 31 was given to the writer by his mother and describes a woman active in several businesses.

My comment about the sovereignty of God was meant to point out the other side of the free will/sovereignty of God debate.

At some point you have to make up your mind. Either the Bible trumps the culture, or the other way around.
"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” 2 Peter 1: 21.

Those holy men encased God's truths in what they knew - desert terrain, camels, tents, kings, sheep, warfare with bows and arrows, water obtained from a well or from an unpolluted stream. Jesus cut to the chase by crossing over cultural boundaries and time periods when He said, "Love God and each other."


Besides, I don't think your premise is entirely correct. Lydia had her own business and the church met in her house. Priscilla seemed to be preferred in her ministry role over her husband. The description of the "ideal woman/wife" in Proverbs 31 was given to the writer by his mother and describes a woman active in several businesses.
The huge majority of women stayed home. Housework and cooking were major parts of a woman's day; childcare filled in the rest. There were no modern conveniences (kitchen appliances, indoor plumbing, Wal-Mart, Hyundai Elantras) to lighten her workload. Plus, Jewish and Roman societies were patriarchies that didn't welcome women in male positions, so I'm sure those women you mention didn't have an easy time doing what they did.

Those holy men encased God's truths in what they knew - desert terrain, camels, tents, kings, sheep, warfare with bows and arrows, water obtained from a well or from an unpolluted stream. Jesus cut to the chase by crossing over cultural boundaries and time periods when He said, "Love God and each other."

1. What you say is certainly true, but the great danger is when people use that to inject their own views into scripture. In marriage, the wife is to submit to her husband and the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church. Now people will say, "That is old fashioned and reflects the culture of the day." So they invalidate the Word of God and replace its teachings with their own ideas.
2. There is an enormous difference in saying that the Bible reflected the world in which the authors lived (camels, sheep, etc.) versus saying the Bible reflected the VALUES of that world culture. We must never forget how counter-cultural the New Testament was. The Gospel was preached in a day of multiple gods, sexual carelessness, marital infidelity, widespread prostitution, neglect of the poor, and a view of humanity that was only slightly above animals. The Gospel directly confronted all of that. Jesus was crucified in large part because He confronted a wicked culture.


I'm sure those women you mention didn't have an easy time doing what they did.

90% of people lived in poverty or slavery. Life was extremely difficult for men and women both.

What does the Bible mean by "condemned"? "to pronounce to be guilty; sentence to punishment"

1. What you say is certainly true, but the great danger is when people use that to inject their own views into scripture. In marriage, the wife is to submit to her husband and the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church. Now people will say, "That is old fashioned and reflects the culture of the day." So they invalidate the Word of God and replace its teachings with their own ideas.
Wives must still submit to their husbands? (This means what?) And we aren't to wear "clothing woven of two kinds of material"?


The Gospel was preached in a day of multiple gods, sexual carelessness, marital infidelity, widespread prostitution, neglect of the poor, and a view of humanity that was only slightly above animals. The Gospel directly confronted all of that. Jesus was crucified in large part because He confronted a wicked culture.
And how is 2018 any different?

Perish = die temporally or eternally
Judged = pronounced to be either innocent or guilty
Condemned = sentenced to punishment

Wives must still submit to their husbands? (This means what?) And we aren't to wear "clothing woven of two kinds of material"?

You see what I mean? You don't think that aligns with our culture now, so of course your cultural belief overrides scripture very clearly laid out in a number of places, Ephesians 5 being the most complete. Might add that husbands no longer need to love their wives as Christ loved the church if your reasoning is correct.

I could pull up the same issue with fidelity in marriage. That was in effect during Paul's day, but we modernists know better now. We have birth control, so there is no real reason to remain faithful to your spouse.

And the list goes on forever. It has the appearance of making yourself out to be your own Bible, and you appeal to an obscure scriptural reference that was in place only for the nation of Israel.

Perish = die temporally or eternally
Judged = pronounced to be either innocent or guilty
Condemned = sentenced to punishment

So what is your conclusion? What is the outcome for unbelievers?

I didn't make a statement; I asked you a question:

Wives must still submit to their husbands? (This means what?)

What's your definition of "submit"?

If you accept the Bible as our authority and source of truth, then why ask the question? Should we still be faithful to our spouse? Should we still tell the truth? Seems silly to me.

"Submit" would mean to respect, honor, and obey.

I note you did not ask what "love as Christ loved the church" means.

If you accept the Bible as our authority and source of truth, then why ask the question? Should we still be faithful to our spouse? Should we still tell the truth? Seems silly to me.

"Submit" would mean to respect, honor, and obey.
Hmmmm, that's not what a lot of Christian fundamentalists think it means.


I note you did not ask what "love as Christ loved the church" means.
Easy-peasy. Love even to death.

Wow. You are quick today!


Hmmmm, that's not what a lot of Christian fundamentalists think it means.

You asked what I believe.

What is your idea about the fate of unbelievers?

What is your idea about the fate of unbelievers?
I was taught and believed for years that unbelievers (non-Christians, in particular the non-Missouri-Synod Lutheran flavor) will suffer eternal torment in hell. I've worked with and been friends with many Jews, Muslims, Hindus, atheists, agnostics, et al. who live more God-pleasing lives than some Christians I've worked with and been friends with. So now, as someone who will face her Maker before long, I am giving a lot of thought to death and what happens afterwards. I wish Lazarus would have filled us in with a few details.

many Jews, Muslims, Hindus, atheists, agnostics, et al. who live more God-pleasing lives than some Christians I've worked with and been friends with. So now, as someone who will face her Maker before long, I am giving a lot of thought to death and what happens afterwards. I wish Lazarus would have filled us in with a few details.

They have no faith in Christ, but they live "God-pleasing lives"? Consider this.

In Romans 3, Paul quotes several OT passages to point out that no one is "good". No one leads anything even approaching a God-pleasing life. We are all guilty. Now if we compare ourselves with ourselves, then some look better than others, but when we compare ourselves to God's standard, then we all come up pitifully short, and are all guilty. I am guilty. You are guilty. Your friends are all guilty.

We should also bear in mind that our first responsibility is to believe what God says. Above all else, that is our first job. "And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.". Before we do anything else, we must do as God says and believe in His Son. So if a person does some good things but does not believe in Jesus, that person is not living a life pleasing to God. We cannot gain God's favor on the basis of our good works.

If you and I are swept several miles out to sea in a rip tide, we both need a lifeguard to rescue us. If you say that your hair looks nicer than mine, or I believe I can stay afloat five minutes longer than you, none of that matters. If we refuse the services of the lifeguard, we perish. If we cling to the lifeguard, we are saved. If the lifeguard rescues you first, I would hope you would yell to me, "Trust in the lifeguard! He is your only hope."


in particular the non-Missouri-Synod Lutheran flavor

That was funny!

Athos,
It relates sort of indirectly to your question, so I offer this article for your consideration. I'm still evaluating it myself, but I'd like to hear your take.

https://corechristianity.com/resource-library/articles/hell-is-not-separation-from-god?utm_content=bufferbdd05&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Athos,
It relates sort of indirectly to your question, so I offer this article for your consideration. I'm still evaluating it myself, but I'd like to hear your take.

https://corechristianity.com/resource-library/articles/hell-is-not-separation-from-god?utm_content=bufferbdd05&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer


I will put Holton's quotes in bold italics and follow them with my own comments.

Whether it is vivid descriptions of Dante's Inferno or revivalist "hellfire and brimstone" sermons, the impression is too often given that we must go beyond biblical description to alert people to avoid such a dreadful place.

Agreed.


Hell is not horrible because of alleged implements of torture or its temperature. (After all, it is described variously in Scripture as "outer darkness" and a "lake of fire.")

Supports my position that "eternal punishment in hell for unbelievers" is not Biblical.


When our conscience condemns us, "We carry always a hell within us" (Gen. Epp. 167).

Similar to my contention that the false proposition originates within the believer himself, and reflects being on the social margins.


We are not entitled, much less required, in our present condition to defend the doctrine of eternal punishment in any way that either exceeds Scripture or reflects a perverse delight in damnation.

Perfectly stated, and my position in a nutshell.


Sorry for such a long response time - Christmas and all that.

Hi Athos,
I see all those descriptions - fire, darkness, chains, weeping, etc. as attempts to describe the indescribable.

And considering that Dante's Inferno was a blatantly political piece, I'm not sure how much theology we should try to get out of it.

After more than a month and nearly 700 views, there have been no answers to the original question. The conclusion is that the proposition that unbelievers are condemned to hell for eternal punishment is not Biblical.

It is hoped that this false pernicious philosophy will someday no longer be promoted by anyone.

Answers, yes. Answers that you are prepared to accept? No. Revelation 20 has the answer as does John 3:16. "Perish" has to mean to endure punishment unless a person believes, as you seem to do, that it means to simply cease to exist, which has no support in the Bible. "It is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgement."

But we must consider this. A person can be wrong about the day of judgement (and I could be that person), and yet still be alright so long as he/she is right on the subject of faith in Christ as the source of salvation. I'm sure we will all "sit around" in heaven some day discussing how we had it wrong on this or that, but no one will discuss how they had it wrong about the necessity of faith in Jesus.

Answers, yes. Answers that you are prepared to accept? No. Revelation 20 has the answer as does John 3:16. "Perish" has to mean to endure punishment unless a person believes, as you seem to do, that it means to simply cease to exist, which has no support in the Bible. "It is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgement."

But we must consider this. A person can be wrong about the day of judgement (and I could be that person), and yet still be alright so long as he/she is right on the subject of faith in Christ as the source of salvation. I'm sure we will all "sit around" in heaven some day discussing how we had it wrong on this or that, but no one will discuss how they had it wrong about the necessity of faith in Jesus.


Revelation 20 and John 3:16 are not concerned with the question starting this thread. Please read the question.

As to "perish" - there is error here, also. I won't post any links since I'm informed you don't read them, but here is a quote from one of those links - "As to any secondary meanings of perish, NONE even remotely express the theory of endless torment." Dr. Weymouth. Try Googling.

As to your "no support in the Bible", error #3. The word "perish" is found in the Bible many times where it means "die, kill, destroyed, consumed, slain, being eat up, laid waste, go to nothing, be as nothing, vanish, withereth, cut off, turn again unto dust, deceased, fade away and utterly wasted". Never your meaning of eternal punishment. Please don't quote the Bible with untruths. Googling can take you to many excellent Bible websites.


Your second paragraph posits a new question. Would you like to discuss that one, too?

If you would simply continue to read the John passage, Jesus elaborates on John 3:16 by saying, "He who believes in Him is not condemned. But he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." Now the word "condemned" has the meaning of incurring judgement, and it very plainly refers to those who are unbelievers.

The Amplified version renders the passage in this manner. "18 He who believes in Him [who clings to, trusts in, relies on Him] is not judged [he who trusts in Him never comes up for judgment; for him there is no rejection, no condemnation—he incurs no damnation]; but he who does not believe (cleave to, rely on, trust in Him) is judged already [he has already been convicted and has already received his sentence] because he has not believed in and trusted in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [He is condemned for refusing to let his trust rest in Christ’s name.]19 The [basis of the] judgment (indictment, the test by which men are judged, the ground for the sentence) lies in this: the Light has come into the world, and people have loved the darkness rather than and more than the Light, for their works (deeds) were evil."

You never have told us what you believe the outcome for unbelievers will be. What do you think "perish" refers to?

BTW, your original question was, "Can anyone provide a quote from the Bible where it is stated that unbelievers are condemned to hell for eternal punishment?". John 3:16 and Rev. 20 are both quite concerned with that question. In fact. Revelation 20 directly addresses it.

If you would simply continue to read the John passage, Jesus elaborates on John 3:16 by saying, "He who believes in Him is not condemned. But he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."


Does John 3:18 mean unbelievers go to hell?

Absolutely not!

Here is a link for those of you read such things - it's an excellent explanation why conservative Christians misread John 3:18 (and verses before and after). Too long to post it here and too long to condense it to post. If there are still some of you who are wondering about this very un-Christ-like notion, this link will be very helpful.


https://leewoof.org/2017/12/08/does-john-318-mean-that-all-non-christians-go-to-hell/


You ask what I believe the "outcome for unbelievers" will be. Other things are more important. For you, love your neighbor and the rest will take care of itself. "Perish" has been explained and defined several times now.

You ask what I believe the "outcome for unbelievers" will be.

Hmmm. You still do not have the courage to answer that question. I could ask another. If unbelievers do not go to hell, then who does?

John 3:18 does mean, without question, that unbelievers will be judged, found guilty, and condemned. There is no other sensible way to see it, so long as "condemned" means what it has meant for centuries. Now you can argue as to what they will be condemned to. Revelation 20 answers that question.

Might add that the 3:18 verse does not simply say unbelievers will be condemned, but that they already stand condemned. It's the same idea of 3:16 that unbelievers are not simply going to perish, but are perishing even now. That is their current state, and it is what Jesus came to rescue us from. Thus the old hymn titled "Rescue the Perishing".

I did read your link. Talk about a rambling discourse! He lost me very early on with this statement: "These “Christians” have strayed very far from Jesus Christ. Instead of showing love and compassion to all different types of people, healing the sick and serving the poor and needy, these “Christians” consider themselves better than everyone else." Talk about judgemental! How would he know what "These Christians" do? Does he know them? I do know many of them, and his conclusion of what we do is completely wrong.

Your author is preaching a doctrine of salvation by good works. That is plainly denied by many passages in the New Testament. For instance, the imagery Jesus used in the John 3 passage was of the bronze serpent in the days of Moses, and how anyone bitten by a serpent could be saved by the simple and faith-filled act of looking to the serpent. "14 (https://biblehub.com/john/3-14.htm)Just as Moses lifted the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted, 15 (https://biblehub.com/john/3-15.htm)that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life." He does not say that everyone who goes out and lives a "good life" will have eternal life, but rather those who look with faith (believes in) to Him. Your article arrived at completely the wrong conclusion.

Isaiah makes the same case when he states, "Look unto me and be saved, all ye ends of the earth, for I am God and there is no other."

Romans 3 is very clear on the topic. "For by works of the law no human beingc (https://biblehub.com/esv/romans/3.htm#footnotes) will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.21 (http://biblehub.com/romans/3-21.htm)But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 (http://biblehub.com/romans/3-22.htm)the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 (http://biblehub.com/romans/3-23.htm)for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 (http://biblehub.com/romans/3-24.htm)and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

So now it seems to me that you must believe your author or believe the Apostle Paul.

The Bible as our source of truth opposed to cultural beliefs".


That's just it, you're to judge for yourself. I'm not sure what truth a person would find in ancient "cultural beliefs", much less understanding them.
Even if we understood their way of thinking, we are so inundated with western thought that it takes a major paradigm shift to adjust our way of thinking to theirs.

That's why everything is going to pass away...all is going to die.
In so dying we (those in Christ Jesus, Lord and Savior) are separated from this world.
Those who love the world more than life will simply pass away...away from Gods presence. Being separated from God might be hell!

Romans 12:2 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+12%3A2&version=ESV)
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind

1 John 2:15-17 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+2%3A15-17&version=ESV)
Do not love the world or the things in the world.


Luke 12:23 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+12%3A23&version=ESV)
For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing.

The Hebrews were called out separated from all other nations, Special to God and so totally tied to the evolution of life and religious culture.
Cultural beliefs begin with God and ends 'in' Jesus.

Welcome aboard, Waltero. Always good to have another person to engage in our spirited discussions.


That's just it, you're to judge for yourself. I'm not sure what truth a person would find in ancient "cultural beliefs", much less understanding them.Even if we understood their way of thinking, we are so inundated with western thought that it takes a major paradigm shift to adjust our way of thinking to theirs.


I'm not following your logic. You say that we cannot find truth in such an ancient document as the Bible, but then you quote the Bible to support your belief. You can't have it both ways. If the Bible cannot be understood, then why wouldn't we simply throw it away?


Those who love the world more than life will simply pass away...away from Gods presence.

Where would we find a place where God is not present? In Psalm 139 we read, "7 (https://biblehub.com/psalms/139-7.htm)Where can I go to escape Your Spirit?Where can I flee from Your presence?8 (https://biblehub.com/psalms/139-8.htm)If I ascend to the heavens, You are there;if I make my bed in Sheol, You are there.9 (https://biblehub.com/psalms/139-9.htm)If I rise on the wings of the dawn,if I settle by the farthest sea,10 (https://biblehub.com/psalms/139-10.htm)even there Your hand will guide me;Your right hand will hold me fast.11 (https://biblehub.com/psalms/139-11.htm)If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me,and the light become night around me”—12 (https://biblehub.com/psalms/139-12.htm)even the darkness is not dark to You,but the night shines like the day,for darkness is as light to You."

Hello jlisenbe (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/members/jlisenbe.html), thanks for the warm welcome.

I am dyslexic combined with trying to read all the threads before I respond, I often get it wrong.


1) My mistake.
I was reading it as Bible vs Cultural Beliefs... which one should we choose as truth.


2) Who is it that loves "this world" more than life (aka. Jesus)... I was referring to unbelievers.

Right now there is a separation of God and man, we know what that feels like.
I don't think we are capable of understanding what it means to be without GOD...being outside the presence of GOD.

I understand it as just believing in Jesus, as the truth and the life. The way I understand it is I am not required to do anything, nothing, other than believe. The rest will follow...so I'm told.
Simply Believe in a man named JESUS, that is above all other names...what's so hard (other than it goes against human nature) about that?

Believe in Jesus and you shall be Saved from Death and will have eternal life...a person need do anything more than that. In fact it is said you can't do anything more than that! Just believe ;-)

I understand it as just believing in Jesus, as the truth and the life. The way I understand it is I am not required to do anything, nothing, other than believe. The rest will follow...so I'm told.
Simply Believe in a man named JESUS, that is above all other names...what's so hard (other than it goes against human nature) about that?

Well said. I would only add that it is a belief that matters and that will affect our behavior in the same way that a belief in gravity will keep us from jumping off a tall building.

I did read your link. Talk about a rambling discourse! He lost me very early on with this statement: "These “Christians” have strayed very far from Jesus Christ. Instead of showing love and compassion to all different types of people, healing the sick and serving the poor and needy, these “Christians” consider themselves better than everyone else." Talk about judgemental! How would he know what "These Christians" do? Does he know them? I do know many of them, and his conclusion of what we do is completely wrong.

Your author is preaching a doctrine of salvation by good works. That is plainly denied by many passages in the New Testament. For instance, the imagery Jesus used in the John 3 passage was of the bronze serpent in the days of Moses, and how anyone bitten by a serpent could be saved by the simple and faith-filled act of looking to the serpent. "14 (https://biblehub.com/john/3-14.htm)Just as Moses lifted the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted, 15 (https://biblehub.com/john/3-15.htm)that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life." He does not say that everyone who goes out and lives a "good life" will have eternal life, but rather those who look with faith (believes in) to Him. Your article arrived at completely the wrong conclusion.

Isaiah makes the same case when he states, "Look unto me and be saved, all ye ends of the earth, for I am God and there is no other."

Romans 3 is very clear on the topic. "For by works of the law no human beingc (https://biblehub.com/esv/romans/3.htm#footnotes) will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.21 (http://biblehub.com/romans/3-21.htm)But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 (http://biblehub.com/romans/3-22.htm)the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 (http://biblehub.com/romans/3-23.htm)for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 (http://biblehub.com/romans/3-24.htm)and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

So now it seems to me that you must believe your author or believe the Apostle Paul.


The discourse is rambling only to those who refuse to believe it.

The rest of your reply has nothing to do with the topic under discussion which is your false statement that unbelievers are condemned to hell for eternal punishment.

It is NOT about salvation. It is NOT about good works. It is NOT about Moses and bronze serpents. All of these are straw-man arguments. How many times do you have to be told this before it sinks in?

Romans, Isaiah, the Prophets - not a single reference of yours deals with the subject.

There's a limit to my patience. If you can't use words according to their accepted meaning, further discussion seems pointless.

Jesus Christ is NOT a monster.

Jesus saves... And all I know is that I don't want to be standing in the white throne of judgment... eternal damnation or not.

It is NOT about salvation. It is NOT about good works. It is NOT about Moses and bronze serpents. All of these are straw-man arguments. How many times do you have to be told this before it sinks in?

Those were in response to the article you linked to. If you did not want to discuss the article, why did you link to it?

You don't want to accept the clear testimony of Revelation 20, so I don't know what else to tell you. As Waltero stated, I don't want to be standing before the throne on that day without a saving knowledge of Jesus. Athos, do you have that saving knowledge? Is you faith in Christ?

Jesus saves... And all I know is that I don't want to be standing in the white throne of judgment... eternal damnation or not.


Walter - please see the first post for what this thread is about. Thanks.

Those were in response to the article you linked to. If you did not want to discuss the article, why did you link to it?


The title of the article in the link is "Do All Non-Christians Go To Hell?" It directly addresses the question.

You say that you "don't want to be standing before the throne on that day without a saving knowledge of Jesus". That's all well and good, but IT IS NOT THE TOPIC UNDER DISCUSSION!!!!!

I really shouldn't waste any more time with you.

The title of the article in the link is "Do All Non-Christians Go To Hell?" It directly addresses the question.

If you read the article, and I assume you did, you know it was about a great deal more than its title would have indicated. But again, if you will trouble yourself to read Rev. 20, which I suppose you have not done, you will have the answer to your question.

And I would ask you again. Is your faith in Christ, or is your faith in your goodness and good works?

@Athose.

QUOTE:
Can anyone provide a quote from the Bible where it is stated that unbelievers are condemned to hell for eternal punishment?

AND:
"If you believe this saying without providing proof, please explain why you believe it. Thank you".

You set up yourself some Guidelines that must be included in said quote?


Remember, no one will go to Hell because of their sins. We're all sinners. The only people who will be cast into hell will be those who refuse to accept the only remedy God provided for their sins, the shed blood of his son, Jesus.


Luke 16:23
"in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgement;

2 Thessolonians 1:8-9
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the Glory of his power,

Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life".


Mark 9:47-48
"If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED


Matthew 18:8
"If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.

Revelations 20:13-5
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

Revelations 21-8
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Revelations 20:15
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


I'm not sure if these follow the guidelines you have set.
One thing is sure, the Bible tells all. It is the living word...and the word became Flesh.
You asked why I might believe.
All is death, we are all doomed to perish. Christ Jesus is all that lives. If a soul is found outside the body of Jesus, it is in utter darkness, cast away from the living God. You might think of it as being permanently separated from "the living" God...our souls are so far-separated from God, cast into utter Darkness. You really Don't need to go any further than being separated from God, that would be hellish enough for me...never mind the fire and Brimstone aka hell.

I'm not sure if these follow the guidelines you have set.



No they don't, but thank you for trying. Each misses at least one of the requirements to satisfy the proposition "Unbelievers are condemned to hell for eternal punishment".

Since you came late to the discussion, I was challenging the idea that a loving God would condemn those who never heard of him and therefore didn't (couldn't) believe in him and was condemned to hell. That would include millions and millions of God's creatures who lived and died without ever hearing about the Biblical God.

Jlisen took the opposite position and based it on verses from the Bible. I examined each one and found none of them supporting his position without adding terms not originally found in the quoted verses.

And unbelievers in which version of God? The God of the Jews? The God of the Lutherans? The God of the Catholics? The God of the Baptists? The God of the Muslims? And each of those religions/denominations has sub-groups that differ about how they understand God and what He has told them.

Waltero, you listed more than a dozen scriptures for which I commend you, but that is not enough for those who simply refuse to believe or who claim not to know which God the Bible is talking about. Revelation 20 is enough by itself, but not for those who do not want to believe.

The New Testament is really very clear on the subject of faith in Christ. 1 John 5:11, for instance, states, "God has given us eternal life, this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son does not have the life." And how, you ask, do we receive the Son? John 1:11ff reads, "He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God."

Very clear.

And heaven's population will be very small....

@Wondergirl:
"And unbelievers in which version of God?"
Is this a trick question? I'd say all the above, to include the one and only living God.

Remember we only get anything from God by being immersed [baptized] in the Lord Jesus Christ, like Jacob we put on Esau’s [Jesus] skin and get His inheritance, for only one person will be saved from the earth... (Col 3:1-4).
@Athos:
"I was challenging the idea that a loving God would condemn those who never heard of him..."
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
All have seen, all have heard of him...I have another reference that tells how Creation Speaks to all...If you think said idea is still valid???
It is a Hard thing to think about; A loving God that would condemn his creatures/creation.
Unfortunatly for some, we have a Just GOD.
God's justice. Deut 32:4. Just and right is he.' Job 37:23. Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: he is excellent in plenty of justice.' God is said to dwell in justice. Psa 89:14. Justice and judgement are the habitation of thy throne.' In God, power and justice meet. Power holds the sceptre, and justice holds the balance.
God's justice is such that it is not fit for any man or angel to expostulate with him, or demand a reason of his actions. God has not only authority on his side, but equity. He lays judgement to the line, and righteousness to the plummet.' Isa 28:17. It is below him to give an account to us of his proceedings. Which of these two is more fit to take place, God's justice or man's reason? Rom 9:20. Who art thou, O man, that replies against God?' The plumb line of our reason is too short to fathom the depth of God's justice. Rom 11:33. How unsearchable are his judgements!' We are to adore God's justice, where we cannot see a reason of it. God's justice runs in two channels. It is seen in two things, the distribution of rewards and punishments.God is not bound to give an account of his actions to his creatures. If none may say to a king, What doest thou?' Eccles 8:4, much less to God. It is sufficient, God is Lord paramount; he has a sovereign power over his creatures, therefore can do no injustice. Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel to honour, and another to dishonor?' Rom 9:21I. God has liberty in his own breast, to save one, and not another; and his justice is not at all impeached or blemished. If two men owe you money, you may, without any injustice, remit the debt to one, and exact it of the other. If two malefactors be condemned to die, the king may pardon the one and not the other: he is not unjust if he lets one suffer, because he offended the law; nor if he save the other, because he will make use of his prerogative as he is king.

If God lets men prosper a while in their sin, his vial of wrath is all this while filling; his sword is all this time whetting: and though God may forbear men a while, yet long forbearance is no forgiveness. The longer God is in taking his blow, the heavier it will be at last. As long as there is eternity, God has time enough to reckon with his enemies.

@Wondergirl:
"And unbelievers in which version of God?"
Is this a trick question? I'd say all the above, to include the one and only living God.

Remember we only get anything from God by being immersed [baptized] in the Lord Jesus Christ, like Jacob we put on Esau’s [Jesus] skin and get His inheritance, for only one person will be saved from the earth... (Col 3:1-4).
@Athos:
"I was challenging the idea that a loving God would condemn those who never heard of him..."
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
All have seen, all have heard of him...I have another reference that tells how Creation Speaks to all...If you think said idea is still valid???
It is a Hard thing to think about; A loving God that would condemn his creatures/creation.
Unfortunatly for some, we have a Just GOD.
God's justice. Deut 32:4. Just and right is he.' Job 37:23. Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: he is excellent in plenty of justice.' God is said to dwell in justice. Psa 89:14. Justice and judgement are the habitation of thy throne.' In God, power and justice meet. Power holds the sceptre, and justice holds the balance.
God's justice is such that it is not fit for any man or angel to expostulate with him, or demand a reason of his actions. God has not only authority on his side, but equity. He lays judgement to the line, and righteousness to the plummet.' Isa 28:17. It is below him to give an account to us of his proceedings. Which of these two is more fit to take place, God's justice or man's reason? Rom 9:20. Who art thou, O man, that replies against God?' The plumb line of our reason is too short to fathom the depth of God's justice. Rom 11:33. How unsearchable are his judgements!' We are to adore God's justice, where we cannot see a reason of it. God's justice runs in two channels. It is seen in two things, the distribution of rewards and punishments.God is not bound to give an account of his actions to his creatures. If none may say to a king, What doest thou?' Eccles 8:4, much less to God. It is sufficient, God is Lord paramount; he has a sovereign power over his creatures, therefore can do no injustice. Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel to honour, and another to dishonor?' Rom 9:21I. God has liberty in his own breast, to save one, and not another; and his justice is not at all impeached or blemished. If two men owe you money, you may, without any injustice, remit the debt to one, and exact it of the other. If two malefactors be condemned to die, the king may pardon the one and not the other: he is not unjust if he lets one suffer, because he offended the law; nor if he save the other, because he will make use of his prerogative as he is king.

If God lets men prosper a while in their sin, his vial of wrath is all this while filling; his sword is all this time whetting: and though God may forbear men a while, yet long forbearance is no forgiveness. The longer God is in taking his blow, the heavier it will be at last. As long as there is eternity, God has time enough to reckon with his enemies.



Thanks Walter. The words you quoted from the Bible are fine and good. But Walter, please be honest, where in those fine words are unbelievers condemned to hell for eternal punishment? There is much about God's justice which has not been denied here but nothing about UNBELIEVERS BEING CONDEMNED TO HELL FOR ETERNAL PUNISHMENT.

If that is your position, please give the specific words in the Bible proving that. Not your interpretation or personal belief, but the actual specific words where God condemns unbelievers to hell and eternal punishment.

To help you, you need 4 characteristics for your proof:
1. unbelievers
2. condemnation
3. hell
4. eternal punishment
Your proof should contain all 4. Thank you.

Waltero, the answer has already been provided. It is simply a matter of some people being completely unwilling to believe. In John 3, for instance, a person can read this: "16 For God so loved the world,[i (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+3&version=ESV#fen-ESV-26126i)] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

The reply will be to nitpick the meaning of "condemned". Having established a artificial list of narrowly defined conditions, and insisting that all of the conditions must be met by one text, it will then also be argued that "perish" is not a sufficiently strong word. And on and on it will go. I think you stated it pretty well earlier. I do not want to stand at the throne of judgement on that terrible day with my confidence having been placed in my good works. I will stand on that day with my faith in Jesus and no confidence whatsoever in any goodness I might think I have. We can argue about what lies beyond that day for unbelievers, but whatever a person might want to believe it is, I do not want to become part of it and am motivated to tell others that they also should avoid it at all costs.

I'm not sure where Athos stands with his faith. I have asked him but received no reply. I have asked him what he believes will happen to unbelievers but received no reply to that either.

@Athos


QUOTE:
"I was challenging the idea that a loving God would condemn those who never heard of him and therefore didn't (couldn't) believe in him and was condemned to hell. That would include millions and millions of God's creatures who lived and died without ever hearing about the Biblical God."
END QUOTE.


Romans 1:20

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.



Simply following your own conclusions, based on the belief that there are people whom are innocent..."that a loving God would condemn those who never heard of him and therefore didn't (couldn't) believe in him and was condemned to hell."
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


Even if all your premises were true (which is itself a false premise, since your premises are *not* all true), these premises still wouldn't justify your conclusion.


The fact of the matter is that nobody is innocent, all of creation, all that has been created knows that of Jesus the Christ. All of Creation speaks out. Anything that has been Created has a creator.
Romans 1:20

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.



"Can anyone provide a quote from the Bible where it is stated that unbelievers are condemned to hell for eternal punishment?"

What has Jesus saved us from? Why would anybody want to travel to different parts of the world to Preach the name of Jesus, to those who have never gave thought of God or Salvation..."those who never heard of him and therefore didn't (couldn't) believe in him."

Would it not have been better to just let them be, rather than Subject them tto everlasting hellfire???

Those who Reject Gods love...They will be punished with everlasting destruction.

Waltero didn't provide any kind of reference for the "eternal punishment" part, even though he did for all the others. I find that rather telling.

Those who Reject Gods love...They will be punished with everlasting destruction.
Walter, if you had been born into a Muslim family/society and were a devout Muslim, believing you have God's love, would you switch to being a Christian?

Here is the eternal punishment reference. As you well know, there are others.

Matthew 25. 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’


Walter, if you had been born into a Muslim family/society and were a devout Muslim, believing you have God's love, would you switch to being a Christian?

What is your point?

Can I assume your (opposed to the Bibles) understanding of "unbelievers" to mean;
someone who has no religious beliefs, or who does not follow a particular religion?
Religious belief is distinct from religious practice and from religious behaviors- with some believers not practicing religion and some practitioners not believing religion.

Does the Bibles definition of 'unbelievers" differ from yours? What is your definition of religion?? Is a person considered an "unbeliever" if they believe in God but not in religion? Can a person believe in God and not religion???

We are never only one thing, even when that thing is religion. Religion is not just a beliefs about Salvation, it is also the everyday habits of discipline and humility those beliefs encouraged.

Finding religion in everyday life means looking wherever and however we find people invoking a sacred presence.


Quote: Jesus
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear the One who, after you have been killed, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him!…

@Wondergirl:
Quote:

Walter, if you had been born into a Muslim family/society and were a devout Muslim, believing you have God's love, would you switch to being a Christian? END QUOTE.

Probably not.

If I was involved in organized crime, If I was a murderer, if I was a simple Honest good man, if I was a Irish midget monk etc....probably not switch to being a Christian.
Nothing about me ever wanted to have anything to do with God! "Christ-in me" is what Changes me...Never had anything to do with me.


Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Is it too hard to fathom that every living creature on the face of the earth (past and present) have seen, known the living GOD. Man was created with God in our DNA. Why bother yourselves...who will suffer eternal damnation! I'm not sure what Athos is getting at. 1) Is he trying to say that only those who have knowledge of God, and by rejecting him will be thrown into the lake of fire. 2) is he trying to say that those whom have never known or haven't even had the chance to know God, (aren't classified as unbelievers, being that they had never had a God to believe in in the first place) therefore are exempt from being tossed into Hell. 3) Hell only last till the end of time, nothing eternal about it.

Anybody that has ever lived has the knowledge of Gods existence. Nobody is blameless...nobody escapes Judgment. Your either on the right (life) or the left (Hell) Either eternal Life (in Christ) or eternal Punishment (in sin)

Either way we all enter eternity to be judged, those on his right (those that are in the body of the Christ) will enter into eternal life, those on his left will be cast into eternal (we can say eternal because time has past...been done away with) Hell.



To focus on Hell is to focus on ones flesh...Hell is Gods purpose, not mine.






https://ssl.gstatic.com/ui/v1/icons/mail/no_photo.png
ReplyForward

@Athos


QUOTE:
"I was challenging the idea that a loving God would condemn those who never heard of him and therefore didn't (couldn't) believe in him and was condemned to hell. That would include millions and millions of God's creatures who lived and died without ever hearing about the Biblical God."
END QUOTE.


Romans 1:20

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.



Simply following your own conclusions, based on the belief that there are people whom are innocent..."that a loving God would condemn those who never heard of him and therefore didn't (couldn't) believe in him and was condemned to hell."
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


Even if all your premises were true (which is itself a false premise, since your premises are *not* all true), these premises still wouldn't justify your conclusion.


The fact of the matter is that nobody is innocent, all of creation, all that has been created knows that of Jesus the Christ. All of Creation speaks out. Anything that has been Created has a creator.
Romans 1:20

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.



"Can anyone provide a quote from the Bible where it is stated that unbelievers are condemned to hell for eternal punishment?"

What has Jesus saved us from? Why would anybody want to travel to different parts of the world to Preach the name of Jesus, to those who have never gave thought of God or Salvation..."those who never heard of him and therefore didn't (couldn't) believe in him."

Would it not have been better to just let them be, rather than Subject them tto everlasting hellfire???

Those who Reject Gods love...They will be punished with everlasting destruction.






Hi Waltero, Please read my original post carefully. You have not responded to the topic being discussed. I am looking for the 4 characteristics delineated in that original post which are found in a Bible quote.

What is your definition of unbeliever?





An unbeliever is defined as one who doesn't believe in Jesus. That is what I understood jls to mean when he originally made the statement we are discussing.


We are never only one thing, even when that thing is religion. Religion is not just a beliefs about Salvation, it is also the everyday habits of discipline and humility those beliefs encouraged.

Finding religion in everyday life means looking wherever and however we find people invoking a sacred presence.



All that may be true but it doesn't address the question.



Jesus. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear the One who, after you have been killed, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him!…


Non-responsive to the topic.





I'm not sure what Athos is getting at.


It couldn't be simpler what I'm getting at. I have laid it out as directly and as simply as possible. Please don't read into my post something that isn't there.



Anybody that has ever lived has the knowledge of Gods existence. Nobody is blameless...nobody escapes Judgment. Your either on the right (life) or the left (Hell) Either eternal Life (in Christ) or eternal Punishment (in sin)

This isn't bad, Waltero. Now, if you can just tweek that statement to have unbelievers being condemned to hell for eternal punishment, you can give us the location in the Bible where it is found.

Your question has been acceptably answered. You just don't accept the answer which is certainly your prerogative. I'm still interested to find out what you believe happens to those who have not accepted Christ as Savior.

Um, Athos is the one who decides if the question has been answered adequately, not any of us responders.

Uhm... actually, we all get to make that decision ourselves as to whether the question has been answered. He is certainly most welcome to his own opinion as are you.

Athos' question has yet to be answered.

Give Athos some credit. It is a cleverly worded question, and I think intentionally so, but at the bottom of the question is a much simpler one: What happens to those who do not have faith in Christ? It is hard to imagine how much clearer the answer could be than the text found in John 3:14ff. Those who do not believe in Jesus, He says, are "condemned already". Now we can argue as to what that condemnation amounts to. Is it eternity in a lake of fire? Rev. 20 certainly seems to say so, but argue against that if you want to. (I'd still like to know what Athos and WG believe on that issue.) It still comes back to the question of how to avoid being under the righteous judgement of God. Cleverly worded questions aside, it is a clearly answered question in the New Testament, and it is hard for me to imagine why we would want to "muddy the waters" by the endless parsing of words. Such evasions will not profit those who stand before His throne on that terrible day.

An unbeliever is defined as one who doesn't believe in Jesus. That is what I understood jls to mean when he originally made the statement we are discussing.




I have to think that your made up list is a distorted projection or perspective...attempting to gain
a specific vantage point in your challenge to the facts.

The Holy Bible offers ample attestation of the association between unbelievers and eternal punishment.

The gospel came not in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit.


But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.


"And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."


But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.


And the devil that deceived them was cast into the
lake
of
fire
and
brimstone
where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

if you will trouble yourself to read Rev. 20, which I suppose you have not done, you will have the answer to your question.
Have read the entire book several times. I agree with many traditional sources that place the book during the reign of Domitian. As my favorite pastor always said, "Revelation was written in a code that has never been broken" and has to do with events in the first century A.D. Revelation was the last book accepted into the biblical canon and almost didn't make it. In 1522 Martin Luther called it "neither apostolic nor prophetic."


And I would ask you again. Is your faith in Christ, or is your faith in your goodness and good works?
Mine is in my Savior, Jesus Christ.

I think your view of Revelation is very much a minority view. This, in particular, is an extremely questionable statement: "Revelation was the last book accepted into the biblical canon and almost didn't make it." Still, fair enough, and your Martin Luther reference was entirely correct. However, would you believe what Jesus said?

Matt. 10:28. " fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Matt. 25:46. “And they shall go away into eternal punishment; but the righteous into everlasting life.”

Matt. 8:12. "And many an Israelite—those for whom the Kingdom was prepared—shall be cast into outer darkness, into the place of weeping and torment.”

Luke 16:22. "Finally the beggar died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham in the place of the righteous dead.[c (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+16&version=TLB#fen-TLB-22843c)] The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and his soul went into hell.[d (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+16&version=TLB#fen-TLB-22844d)] There, in torment, he saw Lazarus in the far distance with Abraham."

Matt. 5:29. "And if your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it from you! For it is better for you that one of your members be destroyed than your whole body be thrown into hell."

Luke 10:15. " And you people of Capernaum, what shall I say about you? Will you be exalted to heaven? No, you shall be brought down to hell.”

I think your view of Revelation is very much a minority view. This, in particular, is an extremely questionable statement: "Revelation was the last book accepted into the biblical canon and almost didn't make it." Still, fair enough, and your Martin Luther reference was entirely correct.
"Revelation had the longest and hardest fight of any book to be recognized as inspired. Though numerous early authors quoted and approved of it, others argued against Revelation."
https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/13997/what-historical-reasons-resulted-in-revelation-being-included-in-most-christia

Please do some research. Revelation had a tough time being accepted into the canon mostly because is the only explicitly eschatological work in the New Testament, its date of composition is generally taken to be far later than the other books, its content is dramatic, and its author is not certain. Though a few books have apocalyptic sections, no other New Testament work is apocalyptic from the first to last verse. (same resource as linked above)

The recognition of the NT canon, as I'm sure you know, is not a clearly understood historical occurrence. It's not as though a committee met very early in the process and pondered the book of Revelation as to its inclusion and then, on some date, all agreed it was in. It was a development more than an occurrence and the early historical records are somewhat sketchy.

Your link included the following: "Even though the East had trouble with the book, the West recognized Revelation as inspired fairly early. Jerome, Ambrose, Rufinus, Augustine, and Innocent all accept it as canonical.26 The Third Council of Carthage (397) listed as canonical, and at the Third Constantinople Council officially ratified Revelation in 680."

Still, reject it if you want to. It still leaves a problem for you which is the many statements of Jesus. At least I guess it's a problem. You seem to love to make observations and yet never reach a conclusion. I sometimes think your Christian beliefs clash with your liberal leanings which makes it uncomfortable for you. Could be wrong about that.

Yep, you're wrong about that. And you painted only part of the picture about how Revelation finally ended up as part of the canon. At least, you read my link. <big grin>

Jesus was speaking to uneducated people who were a product of their times and culture. I'm betting He wouldn't say those same words to us in 2019.

Yep, you're wrong about that.

If you think the history of the recognition of the NT canon is clear and well-documented, then you need to get out more.

Jesus wouldn't use the same words today? Well, He wouldn't speak in Aramaic. Other than that, what is your point? Do you think He would now say, "Sorry guys. I got it all wrong 2,000 years ago. There really is no hell, gay marriage is the way to go, and everyone should vote democrat."

You make me laugh sometimes. I frequently think you surely must be joking.

Depends on what I meant as to your being wrong. Sorry I didn't quote you. The inclusion of Revelation wasn't a slam-dunk.


Jesus wouldn't use the same words today? Well, He wouldn't speak in Aramaic. Other than that, what is your point? Do you think He would now say, "Sorry guys. I got it all wrong 2,000 years ago. There really is no hell, gay marriage is the way to go, and everyone should vote democrat."
I'm sure Jesus wouldn't use the words He did in 30 A.D. And He very likely wouldn't vote either Dem or Repub. He'd start a new party.

His message would not change since His message was the truth. Phrased differently? Perhaps, but not a new message.

Maybe it is YOU who should listen closer to YOUR savior. On judgement day what will you tell your God when you refused to care for the weary stranger that shows up seeking shelter? Or explain why you went along with one that turned them away? I think many will have a lot of explaining to do for judging poorly their fellow men, women, and children.

His message would not change since His message was the truth. Phrased differently? Perhaps, but not a new message.
I love how you add to what I said. Grrrrr. If Jesus spoke to us today, He would use very different words and terms. Then you'd very likely raise your hand and ask for clarification and wonder why He's using different words and terms.

Yes, what Tal said!!!

God when you refused to care for the weary stranger that shows up seeking shelter? Or explain why you went along with one that turned them away? I think many will have a lot of explaining to do for judging poorly their fellow men, women, and children.

Talking about judging. How would you possibly know what I have done or refused to do? What a terribly prejudiced statement. And you want to point a finger at Trump?? Having border security is a role of the federal government. Obama did it as well.


I love how you add to what I said. Grrrrr. If Jesus spoke to us today, He would use very different words and terms.

Not real sure how I added to what you said. I also have no idea how you would know that Jesus would use "very different words and terms," other than He would speak in a different language.

Talking about judging. How would you possibly know what I have done or refused to do? What a terribly prejudiced statement. And you want to point a finger at Trump?? Having border security is a role of the federal government. Obama did it as well.

Maybe I am judging and rather harshly, but how could you possibly be threatened by tired, hungry, and afraid men, women, and children? How could anyone? Is not the characterization of them by the dufus bearing a false witness against them?

Please don't compare what Obama did, like you always try to, to what the dufus is doing, because if you're honest you would see the BIG difference in words, actions and behaviors.

You don't need security, you need food blankets and beds and since we have pictures of them coming and know why, no excuse NOT to be ready and process them humanely. It's just simple basic decency, even though some will not be able to stay. Better yet, stop threatening Mexico, and partner in dealing with this humanitarian crisis.

Yes I'm judging and harshly. If that's not okay, pray for me.

Not real sure how I added to what you said. I also have no idea how you would know that Jesus would use "very different words and terms," other than He would speak in a different language.
Different language from ours? You mean to say Jesus doesn't know English????

You implied I said His message would change in 2019. Back then, He used words and terms His listeners understood and could relate to. Today He would use words and terms WE would understand. (Didn't I say this already???)

Oh well. I was too harsh in my response, so we're even. I've told you before I value your frankness, and I still do. And I will certainly pray for you.

I don't think you can equate border security with refusing to help people in need. I don't honestly know how to help all of those people. It's a great challenge, but just letting them cross the border unchecked is a recipe for disaster.

Oh well. I was too harsh in my response, so we're even. I've told you before I value your frankness, and I still do. And I will certainly pray for you.Awwwwww! You're sweet! Like we say in NC, "bless his little heart!" (P.S. I'm thanking you.)


I don't think you can equate border security with refusing to help people in need. I don't honestly know how to help all of those people. It's a great challenge, but just letting them cross the border unchecked is a recipe for disaster.
There's border security that works and there's border security that looks like it works, but doesn't.

How to help refugees and immigrants: every Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Unitarian, agnostic, atheist group in this country should pitch in to help with food, clothing, housing, and job hunting, just like we did during the Tet Offensive.

Awwwwww! You're sweet! Like we say in NC, "bless his little heart!" (P.S. I'm thanking you.)

Aw shucks.


there's border security that looks like it works, but doesn't. Yes. That's what we are using now which is why we need a wall.


How to help refugees and immigrants: every Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Unitarian, agnostic, atheist group in this country should pitch in to help with food, clothing, housing, and job hunting, just like we did during the Tet Offensive.

You had me until you referred to the Tet Offensive. That was during the Vietnam War. I'm not sure what you are referring to if that's what you meant.

As to Jesus changing His words, if you meant that Jesus would speak in a different language and perhaps use different examples in His parables, then I'm with you on that, though that would seem to be so blindingly obvious that I don't know why it would have needed to be said, but perhaps I'm just completely missing your point.

You growled at me earlier (Grrrr). It alarmed me so much that I had to go to my safe space.

Back then, He used words and terms His listeners understood


Yet, not even the apostle's knew what he was talking about.



Today He would use words and terms WE would understand.


How do you figure?




Maybe it is YOU who should listen closer to YOUR savior.

Jesus is your savior too.



On judgement day what will you tell your God


Good reason to put ones trust in Jesus, he is interceding on our (His and mine) behalf.




Or explain why you

It's no longer about 'me' (you). Its all Jesus, Baby!



I think many will have a lot of explaining to do

Explain away...just know, it will not end good for those that do.

We agree the challenge is enormous but I think the efforts of the volunteers and the churches is the place to start and working as tirelessly as they do is a good example for the government to follow. A humane process is what I've been saying for the longest and if we can have great debts to give the rich it follows we can have great debt to the needy as well. I'm no Christian admittedly, but that in no way means I don't believe in God or the works that follow good orderly direction. That's just my idea of a secure border... helping those that need, and ask for it.

Sorry to hijack this thread, but everybody knows I'm as flawed as they come. Thank you for the prayers.

Sorry to hijack this thread, but everybody knows I'm as flawed as they come. Thank you for the prayers.

Part of our common humanity. Both of us.

Would a wall prevent people trekking towered the US-Mexico border?
Trekking to the Border is where they suffer the greatest maltreatment.

You had me until you referred to the Tet Offensive. That was during the Vietnam War. I'm not sure what you are referring to if that's what you meant.
You musta not been borned yet. During and after (and maybe even before, as things deteriorated in Viet Nam) churches of various faiths reached out to Vietnamese refugees. My congregation sponsored three families, found homes for them, helped them get settled and find jobs. They all are wonderful people and have become a vital part of Chicago and its suburbs. Many now own their own businesses and were able to send their children to college. I was a sub and volunteer at our Lutheran school and was privileged to tutor our sponsorees in English. one family invited me to their house for afternoon tea where I ate my very first banh mi sandwich.


As to Jesus changing His words, if you meant that Jesus would speak in a different language and perhaps use different examples in His parables, then I'm with you on that, though that would seem to be so blindingly obvious that I don't know why it would have needed to be said, but perhaps I'm just completely missing your point.
Yes, I thought it went right over your head because you didn't want to give up the possibility of hellfire licking at human ankles.


You growled at me earlier (Grrrr). It alarmed me so much that I had to go to my safe space.
Ha, ha, you're funny. I'm starting to like you!

Yes, I thought it went right over your head because you didn't want to give up the possibility of hellfire licking at human ankles.

You cannot claim to believe the teachings of the Bible and then ignore the parts you don't like. It's either true or it's not true. I've elected to believe it is true.

Where in the bible does it say some weary travelers are illegal so must be deported? Sorry man but curious minds want to know which are the true parts and which are the made up stuff by modern ideologues, or intentionally or accidentally misinterpreted.

You cannot claim to believe the teachings of the Bible and then ignore the parts you don't like. It's either true or it's not true. I've elected to believe it is true.
I'm not ignoring the parts I don't like. The Bible is made up of poetry, parables, allegories and many other literary devices, wisdom sayings and proverbs, etc. We know this did not really happen: Isaiah 55:12 (http://www.biblica.com/en-us/bible/online-bible/niv/isaiah/55/) "You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands." Did a great fish really swallow Jonah and then spit him out, or is that an allegory? Did Lot's wife really turn into a pillar of salt? Was the Flood worldwide or local? Are we to understand the entire Bible literally, that every word is true?

You're being evasive. " you didn't want to give up the possibility of hellfire licking at human ankles." You're the one who raised the issue.

You're being evasive. " you didn't want to give up the possibility of hellfire licking at human ankles." You're the one who raised the issue.
Nope, hadn't had my first cup of coffee yet. You and I both know that fundamentalist/conservative Christians take the hellfire verses very literally and see it as a heaven-or-hellfire situation. I'm not so sure it's that black or white, whereas from what I've read in your posts, you are sure.

The general rule is to take a verse literally unless there is a genuinely compelling reason not to. The way that Jesus spoke of hell is plainly not intended to be taken figuratively. I might as well say that his references to adultery and murder are merely figurative.

Did a great fish really swallow Jonah and then spit him out, or is that an allegory? Did Lot's wife really turn into a pillar of salt? Was the Flood worldwide or local? Are we to understand the entire Bible literally, that every word is true?


A person might want to try and read those verses in the Bible Intuitively. Try to Grasp the main flow beyond the imaginable. If you end up getting the right "sensation" out of it, I bet you would have a hard time passing it on to others. They would think you are on "something".

The general rule is to take a verse literally unless there is a genuinely compelling reason not to. The way that Jesus spoke of hell is plainly not intended to be taken figuratively. I might as well say that his references to adultery and murder are merely figurative.
Then what is hell?

I would suggest you simply read what Jesus said about hell.

I would suggest you simply read what Jesus said about hell.
I want to know your definition of it.

Jesus used words and descriptions his first-century uneducated listeners would understand.

Jesus used words and descriptions his first-century uneducated listeners would understand.

Then an educated person like you should have no problems at all.

The conclusion is that the "proposition" that unbelievers are condemned to hell for eternal punishment is not Biblical.



Even, against the weight of evidence?




Then what is hell?




The Bible describes hell as a place of outer darkness, a lake of fire, a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, a place of eternal separation from the blessings of God, a prison, a place of torment where the worm doesn’t turn or die.

The Bible describes hell as a place of outer darkness, a lake of fire, a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, a place of eternal separation from the blessings of God, a prison, a place of torment where the worm doesn’t turn or die.


Exactly the images Jesus' 1st-century listeners understood.

Almost all the biblical teaching about hell comes from the lips of Jesus.
That Jesus used the most awful symbols imaginable to describe hell is no comfort to those who see them simply as symbols. We must not think of them as being merely symbols.




If these images are indeed symbols, then we must conclude that the reality is worse than the symbol suggests.
The function of symbols is to point beyond themselves to a higher or more intense state of actuality than the symbol itself can contain.

Almost all the biblical teaching about hell comes from the lips of Jesus.
That Jesus used the most awful symbols imaginable to describe hell is no comfort to those who see them simply as symbols. We must not think of them as being merely symbols.



If these images are indeed symbols, then we must conclude that the reality is worse than the symbol suggests.
The function of symbols is to point beyond themselves to a higher or more intense state of actuality than the symbol itself can contain.







I didn't say a word about symbols.

Exactly the "images" Jesus' 1st-century listeners understood.



It is not as you think...they understood nothing of what Jesus was talking about...not only because he was talking about Hell (Jews don't believe in hell), but because he is the living God. The people who were closest to Jesus, never understood what he was saying.Human nature goes against God.


I didn't say a word about symbols.


those graphic "images" of eternal punishment provoke the question, should we take these descriptions literally or are they merely symbols?

There is a lot of difference between being uneducated and being stupid. I think we would have to be the latter in order to believe that Jesus was just kidding about hell.

A breath of relief is usually heard when someone declares, “Hell is a symbol for separation from God.” To be separated from God for eternity is no great threat to the impenitent person. The ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God. Their problem in hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire.



Where did the Jews get their understanding of Death, Hell etc.? It appears as if some Christians have come to that same understanding.
Did not Jesus elaborate on this subject? How do you suppose some people hold to the same understanding as the Pre-Jesus, Jews???



The conclusion is that the proposition that unbelievers are condemned to hell for eternal punishment is not Biblical



Soooo, Unbelievers just die, off too oblivion while Fallen Angels enter into...?



We are not entitled, much less required, in our present condition to defend the doctrine of eternal punishment in any way that
either exceeds Scripture or reflects a perverse delight in damnation.


I'll go along with you on this one. I Don't want to believe that anybody go to hell. I know that everybody is a child of God, made in the likeness of him. Preaching Hellfire never agreed with me (even though it is not about me). I would rather focus on life (not my life), love and happiness.




Death and Sin are condemned to hell for eternal punishment.

A breath of relief is usually heard when someone declares, “Hell is a symbol for separation from God.” To be separated from God for eternity is no great threat to the impenitent person. The ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God. Their problem in hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire.



Where did the Jews get their understanding of Death, Hell etc.? It appears as if some Christians have come to that same understanding.
Did not Jesus elaborate on this subject? How do you suppose some people hold to the same understanding as the Pre-Jesus, Jews???





Soooo, Unbelievers just die, off too oblivion while Fallen Angels enter into...?




I'll go along with you on this one. I Don't want to believe that anybody go to hell. I know that everybody is a child of God, made in the likeness of him. Preaching Hellfire never agreed with me (even though it is not about me). I would rather focus on life (not my life), love and happiness.




Death and Sin are condemned to hell for eternal punishment.






Nothing above responds to the issue.

IF THIS SITE IS STILL MODERATED, I'M REQUESTING THE MODERATOR TO CLOSE THIS THREAD. THE PROPOSED ANSWERS ARE BECOMING REPETITIVE (WHEN THEY ARE LEGIBLE) AND NOTHING NEW HAS BEEN OFFERED.

THANK YOU.

The set up:

The quote must contain the following:
1- "Unbelievers", not a word that may or not mean Unbelievers.
2- "Condemned", a euphemism meaning the exact same thing is acceptable. NOTE: "Perish", for example, does NOT have the same meaning.
3- "Hell", an equivalent word for an afterlife for unbelievers is acceptable.
4- "Eternal punishment", both words are necessary, OR an absolute equivalent.
Irrelevant.

This is nothing more than a distorted projection or perspective...attempting to gain a specific vantage point in your Challenge.


The Question:



Can anyone provide a quote from the Bible where it is stated that unbelievers are condemned to hell for eternal punishment?


If you believe this saying without providing proof, please explain why you believe it. Thank you.











What is Hell?
Jewish belief, Christian belief? Lets just say that Hell is not eternal.
Revelations 20:40

Then both Death and "Hell" will be cast into the Lake of Fire...I'm Guessing the lake of fire is!


Unbelievers/Believers won't be known as Unbelievers/Believers in the afterlife...it won't matter what you believe or don't believe. At the point of Death, you either enter into life (Jesus) or Death (the First death, that of the body AKA Unbeliever).

You want to watch out for dat dare second death, I'm a bettin dat is a doozy!