Do you believe in the rapture of the church. Why or why not? If you do believe in the rapture, is it pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib. Do you have scripture to back up what you believe?

I believe Revelations and believe it is what the end will be like. These could be the beginning of those days.

I believe church is in my heart and in nature... I believe that there is positive and negative energies to any deity or deities you believe in. That if you believe in the Holy scripture of whatever religion you are apart of, go to church, go outside in nature or whatever you do - it is your connection with your deity or deities and only you can have that relationship and understanding. Faith is enrichment and finding hope in the worst of situations is what gives you strength and love is what makes you always put your best foot forward. To practice with like minded individuals always makes the connection powerful... what you believe in... whatever anyone else says is irrelevant because it's your experience. To continue to show respect and compassion to all those around you, as the divine spirit is in all things in my opinion, is the true path though not every one is plesant (they have experiences too as we all lead different paths). I think that religion has changed and continues to be re-written by past and current and future generations and it's hard to understand it's authenticy.I think our ancestors knew more about the universe as they connected themselves with nature and the cosmos - we research and are given information but it is again only what you truly believe that will be your salvation. The bible is a great example of pre, mid and post ideals and concepts... and I've discussed this topic in great detail with priests and pastors but not a straight answer could be given... we have lost a lot of information - don't stop believing and remember you can take and learn and practice what you will - what fills your heart with peace and joy. It is what will make each individual recognize or relate to what they absorb and can associate themselves to. Only a shift in the personal paradigm can be experienced by you and only you. I don't believe in the news and I don't believe everything I read... I will not live in fear but will rejoice my life every day and will live every day as a blessing and those that walk a mile with me as well. There is only one path... to finding oneself is to finding God you create your personal rapture on this plane... when the earth ceases to exist or the human race is extinguished is not of your control but how you walk out of this life is.

Hey Classy T, here is the answer for your question, Yes I believe in Rapture. Why I believe? Well, because It is written and I am a believer.
Scripture- 1st Thessalonians 4.

''13 (http://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/4-13.htm)Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 (http://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/4-14.htm)For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 (http://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/4-15.htm)According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 (http://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/4-16.htm)For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 (http://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/4-17.htm)After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 (http://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/4-18.htm)Therefore encourage one another with these words.

- Rapture comes from a latin word 'Rapturo' which is translation in the greek verb is ''Caught up''.

'Church' is a bride of the Lamb. So church probably won't have to face the God's wrath on earth, Just my thought. But still can't say Pre or post not in the position to comment on that Because I Need to research more on that area. When I will find out, I'll post. :)

The 1 Thessalonians passages indicates that there will be a "rapture." It doesn't say when. It doesn't say anything about whether it happens before, during, or after other events. It just says it'll happen. That's it.

However, we have a couple of indicators in the passage itself. The word for "meet" (the Lord in the air) was used when people would come out of a city to MEET their leader when he returned from a successful conquest, and escort him back into the city. That's how this word was used, and it's consistent. So what does it tell us?

It tells us that when Jesus returns, we will be caught up with Him, transformed, then we'll accompany Him in his triumphal return to Earth.

Some people look at Titus 2:13 and try to say that the "blessed hope" and "glorious appearing" are two different events, but the grammar of the verse says otherwise. There's a special construction there that makes it clear they are the same thing. (It's called Granville Sharp's rule for those who like little-known facts for smart alecks.)

No other passage in the entire Bible gives any further information. Over the centuries, some people have taken this simple idea and shoved a bunch of artificial theological systems on it to make it say what they want, but that's bunk. It says what it says.

There will be a "rapture," but it will happen when Jesus returns to Earth to fix everything.

dwashbur, I am not religious, but it is always nice to hear what you have to say.

As much as I believe in using the Bible as a guide book, there are many things that raise questions. Did woman come from Adam's rib? That is just one story of creation, there are 2 in Genesis. There are hundreds on "sins" in Leviticus, crops, animals, clothing of 2 materials, cutting your beards. If you say " well that's the OT", so are the 10 commandments. Look at Deuteronomy and read the story of the disobedient son. Do you expect the city council to stone your son if he doesn't listen to them? In Genesis, Cain kills Abel and GOD puts puts a mark on him so the other people won't kill him. Cain's wife and the other people-where did they come from? The " Seven deadly sins" aren't in the Bible. It doesn't say you need to go to Church, I do, it says on the seventh day " he rested". Everyone must die, according to the Bible but Elijah and Enoch didn't didn't. Using the bible to make a case for Rapture is pure speculation. The Beatitudes seems a better thing to think about rather than the Rapture.

The Beatitudes seems a better thing to think about rather than the Rapture.
I can definitely agree with this statement. The rest, not so much, but great finish.

The Beatitudes seems a better thing to think about rather than the Rapture.



Hmm? Well I disagree. Titus 2:13 says we wait for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of the great God and our savior Jesus Christ. So thinking about when the Lord Jesus will return is my HOPE! The bible doesn't say every man must die. It states it is appointed unto man, once to die and after that the judgment. Mankind has a whole has an appointed to die... not EVERY man! Otherwise if every man had an appointment with death, Elijah and Enoch wouldn't have been raptured. No... Paul is clear there is a rapture... and those that are alive and remain will be caught up to meet HIM in the air.


dwashbur, I am not religious, but it is always nice to hear what you have to say.

Joy, oh good grief, please don't encourage him. :D

Dave,

I completely disagree but you know that. Just for grins answer this, if those believers who are alive and remain go through the tribulation period or whenever you think Jesus will come back, tell me this who goes into the Millennium and populates the earth? He is reigning for 1000 years. Who are the people who will populate the earth! As those who are alive and remain will be changed in a twinkle of an eye, our bodies changed forever, incorruptible like the Lord Jesus. Dead in Christ first, then us. Jesus is clear we will be like the angels and not be given in marriage. We won't be married. So who are these people who populate the earth during his reign?


I believe church is in my heart and in nature... I believe that there is positive and negative energies to any deity or deities you believe in. That if you believe in the Holy scripture of whatever religion you are apart of, go to church, go outside in nature or whatever you do - it is your connection with your deity or deities and only you can have that relationship and understanding. Faith is enrichment and finding hope in the worst of situations is what gives you strength and love is what makes you always put your best foot forward. To practice with like minded individuals always makes the connection powerful... what you believe in... whatever anyone else says is irrelevant because it's your experience. To continue to show respect and compassion to all those around you, as the divine spirit is in all things in my opinion, is the true path though not every one is plesant (they have experiences too as we all lead different
paths). I think that religion has changed and continues to be re-written by past and current and future generations and it's hard to understand it's authenticy.I think our ancestors knew more about the universe as they connected themselves with nature and the cosmos - we research and are given information but it is again only what you truly believe that will be your salvation. The bible is a great example of pre, mid and post ideals and concepts... and I've discussed this topic in great detail with priests and pastors but not a straight answer could be given... we have lost a lot of information - don't stop believing and remember you can take and learn and practice what you will - what fills your heart with peace and joy. It is what will make each individual recognize or relate to what they absorb and can associate themselves to. Only a shift in the personal paradigm can be experienced by you and only you. I don't believe in the news and I don't believe everything I read... I will not live in fear but will rejoice my life every day and will live every day as a blessing and those that walk a mile with me as well. There is only one path... to finding oneself is to finding God you create your personal rapture on this plane... when the earth ceases to exist or the human race is extinguished is not of your control but how you walk out of this life is.


Well, I agree with you in this, we should NOT live in fear... ever. That isn't what God wants. And we should show compassion and respect to everyone, whether they agree with our views or not. So in this we agree.

Dave,

I completely disagree but you know that. Just for grins answer this, if those believers who are alive and remain go through the tribulation period or whenever you think Jesus will come back, tell me this who goes into the Millennium and populates the earth? He is reigning for 1000 years. Who are the people who will populate the earth! As those who are alive and remain will be changed in a twinkle of an eye, our bodies changed forever, incorruptible like the Lord Jesus. Dead in Christ first, then us. Jesus is clear we will be like the angels and not be given in marriage. We won't be married. So who are these people who populate the earth during his reign?
Where are you getting all this from? You've woven a tapestry from a jumble of Bible verses.

She has asked for opinions, yet chooses to disagree with those that do not conform to hers.

She has asked for opinions, yet chooses to disagree with those that do not conform to hers.

You are kidding? SHE DOES? Well, that is just horrible. I've never known this site to discuss opinions. She sounds like a horrible human being. Well in any event, it doesn't look like you tried to answer her at all. Just gave YOUR opinion. Go figure.


Where are you getting all this from? You've woven a tapestry from a jumble of Bible verses.

Not sure this can be discussed. I guess I don't understand the rules of the site anymore.

Not sure this can be discussed. I guess I don't understand the rules of the site anymore.
Like dwashbur said, "Over the centuries, some people have taken this simple idea ["rapture"] and shoved a bunch of artificial theological systems on it to make it say what they want, but that's bunk. It says what it says."

And the Book of Revelation was written to warn against Nero and the Roman Empire. Those have come and gone.

For the record, I'm an anti-millennialist, anti-trib. I agree with Robert Frost:

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

I.e., the world will end when it ends. My job is to love God and, with His help, love others. I'm blessed to be a blessing. Amen.

Can we please stick to the Main Question she asked? Instead of telling her what she should have asked or discussed. I don't think so being curious and wanting to learn more about any subjects is bad. :/ Just saying.

Can we please stick to the Main Question she asked? Instead of telling her what she should have asked or discussed. I don't think so being curious and wanting to learn more about any subjects is bad. :/ Just saying.
I did.

I did.

Thank you. :)

Can we please stick to the Main Question she asked? Instead of telling her what she should have asked or discussed. I don't think so being curious and wanting to learn more about any subjects is bad. :/ Just saying.
What's YOUR belief?

Thank you. :)
As did I.

She has asked for opinions, yet chooses to disagree with those that do not conform to hers.
SHE DID?? Well, forsooth, gadzooks, good gosh all Friday and the calves got out! How dare she disagree with opinions that are different than her own? CALL THE COPS!!

I have no idea what your point is, or if there even is one. It sounds to me like you just want to accuse someone of something. A good question would be, why.

Religion and politics - so much fun forever and a day. I happen to like a good argument, J-9. (Not at the dinner table, of course)
I stay out of religious argument because I'm not religious, and IMO, too much of it smacks of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
But this is interesting!

What's YOUR belief?

About? Ummm if you are asking about ClassyT's question, I answered what I believe above!



As did I.

Yes you did! :)

About? Ummm if you are asking about ClassyT's question, I answered what I believe above!
You're right. You did. It was so long ago, I had forgotten. :-) Sorry, Precious.

Religion and politics - so much fun forever and a day. I happen to like a good argument, J-9. (Not at the dinner table, of course)
I stay out of religious argument because I'm not religious, and IMO, too much of it smacks of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
But this is interesting!

I like good arguments too. Especially religious ones when some are so sure of what's what - often based on 2,500 year old writings. I wonder why they seem unable to see the illogic of what they promote. I have no argument for Scripture being sacred, but not in the same way they tend to see it.

Sacred are the Beatitudes, and such. Wondergirl wrote (paraphrased) Love God and love your neighbor. I think that pretty much sums it up. Even Jesus summed it up in that way when he was asked.

You're right. You did. It was so long ago, I had forgotten. :-) Sorry, Precious.

You're fine, it happens. No worries.

So you're saying that sitting around waiting for this blessed hope is more important than living out Jesus' words in the Beatitudes? I might have some difficulty with that idea.

Yes, That is what Titus 2:13 says. But it also says the two are the same event, there's no separation between them like dispensationalists try to invent.

As for your question about who goes into the Millennium, many of us don't buy a literal millennium. And considering that it's only mentioned once, in Revelation 20, and pretty much everything in Revelation is symbolic of something else, it's doubtful there's anything literal about that statement. So for those of us who read Revelation the way it's supposed to be read, the "millennium" is a non-issue.


Hmm? Well I disagree. Titus 2:13 says we wait for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of the great God and our savior Jesus Christ. So thinking about when the Lord Jesus will return is my HOPE! The bible doesn't say every man must die. It states it is appointed unto man, once to die and after that the judgment. Mankind has a whole has an appointed to die... not EVERY man! Otherwise if every man had an appointment with death, Elijah and Enoch wouldn't have been raptured. No... Paul is clear there is a rapture... and those that are alive and remain will be caught up to meet HIM in the air.



Joy, oh good grief, please don't encourage him. :D

So you're saying that sitting around waiting for this blessed hope is more important than living out Jesus' words in the Beatitudes? I might have some difficulty with that idea.

Yes, That is what Titus 2:13 says. But it also says the two are the same event, there's no separation between them like dispensationalists try to invent.

As for your question about who goes into the Millennium, many of us don't buy a literal millennium. And considering that it's only mentioned once, in Revelation 20, and pretty much everything in Revelation is symbolic of something else, it's doubtful there's anything literal about that statement. So for those of us who read Revelation the way it's supposed to be read, the "millennium" is a non-issue.

Well you would have difficulty because you do not believe in dispensations. Jesus spoke that to the Jews and it was for the Kingdom which the disciples thought was about to take place and it hasn't even today! It will though. So while the sermon on the mount is beautiful and written for me to learn, it wasn't written TO me. For instance, when the Lord says to forgive or you won't be forgiven by your Father in heaven. Do you believe that is for you? Do you believe when you struggle to forgive someone that you are no longer forgiven by the Father? If so, you believe in losing your salvation based on works. Also do you love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind and your neighbor as yourself? If not, you are not saved. Listen... John says THIS IS LOVE... not that WE loved God.. ( what? But we have to love him with our everything according to Jesus) but that HE loved us and gave His son to be a propitiation for our sins. We love HIM because he first loved us. He stretched out his arms at the cross and died for us. When he gave the sermon on the mount he was putting the Law in its proper place. He also knew no one could do it... not until he died and gave them the power to. That's my take. And if I fail to forgive, I'm still forgiven. My love for my Father sadly is up and down. My love for him is not what I focus on, it is HIS LOVE for me that is constant. I'm not looking at me, I'm looking at Christ and just for the record... FOR CHRIST. Even so come Lord Jesus!

So you're saying that sitting around waiting for this blessed hope is more important than living out Jesus' words in the Beatitudes? I might have some difficulty with that idea.

Yes, That is what Titus 2:13 says. But it also says the two are the same event, there's no separation between them like dispensationalists try to invent.

As for your question about who goes into the Millennium, many of us don't buy a literal millennium. And considering that it's only mentioned once, in Revelation 20, and pretty much everything in Revelation is symbolic of something else, it's doubtful there's anything literal about that statement. So for those of us who read Revelation the way it's supposed to be read, the "millennium" is a non-issue.




What do you mean you don't buy the Millennium? So you don't think there is a time coming when Jesus Christ will rule and reign on this earth for 1000 years? HUH? WHAT? Surely I am misunderstanding you. PLEASE say I am misunderstanding.

It's pretty simple, really. That whole business is symbolic, like the rest of the book. So many errors have been pushed by taking that book literally it's almost ridiculous. A literal millennium is one of them. No, I do not buy a literal 1000 year thingy. What kind of years? 365 day solar years? Do they include leap years? Is it exactly 1000 years to the day, or does it maybe fudge by a day or two?

The whole thing stems from reading basic Greek apocalyptic literature WRONG. That's what it boils down to.


What do you mean you don't buy the Millennium? So you don't think there is a time coming when Jesus Christ will rule and reign on this earth for 1000 years? HUH? WHAT? Surely I am misunderstanding you. PLEASE say I am misunderstanding.

Plenty of Christians who can read and understand Greek do believe in dispensations. So what is it you see happening? I know you don't believe anything in the near future but what is the next event. Do you believe in the second coming?

Plenty of Christians who can read and understand Greek do believe in dispensations. So what is it you see happening? I know you don't believe anything in the near future but what is the next event. Do you believe in the second coming?
Of course. What will it look like? Don't know, don't care. I read the end of the book. We win. That's good enough for me.

As for those "Christians who can read and understand Greek" who are dispensational, Greek isn't the issue. The issue is those phony theological systems that people overlay the Bible with and use to interpret it. That's the problem, they start with the dispensational stuff and read it into everything they read, whether in Greek, English, or Lower Slobbovian. That is exactly what I was talking about. When we throw out the theological monkey bars and let the text speak for itself, we get a very different picture. That's exactly why I rejected dispensationalism after following it for nearly 10 years.

Dave,

I honestly don't know how you can throw it out and have the bible not contradict itself. For instance, and we had this discussion on FB, when Jesus is separating the sheep from the goats. He tells them they can go enter into everlasting life because of what they did for him. Yet that isn't the gospel AT ALL. So how to you reconcile the two. Are we saved by grace? Or do we work for it? Is the work at the cross finished.. or do we STILL need to visit those in prison, give a drink of water to the thirsty, give food to the hungry in order to be saved. (of course we WANT to do those things under grace, that is not the issue) Do we HAVE to? Because if we do... it's no longer grace.

Dave,

I honestly don't know how you can throw it out and have the bible not contradict itself. For instance, and we had this discussion on FB, when Jesus is separating the sheep from the goats. He tells them they can go enter into everlasting life because of what they did for him. Yet that isn't the gospel AT ALL. So how to you reconcile the two. Are we saved by grace? Or do we work for it? Is the work at the cross finished.. or do we STILL need to visit those in prison, give a drink of water to the thirsty, give food to the hungry in order to be saved. (of course we WANT to do those things under grace, that is not the issue) Do we HAVE to? Because if we do... it's no longer grace.
I'll butt in with this: We have been saved by grace, through faith, and not because of anything we've done. It's God's gift to us. Our good works are our thank you to Him.

From http://www.gotquestions.org/parable-sheep-goats.html

In the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, we are looking at man redeemed and saved, and man condemned and lost. A casual reading seems to suggest that salvation is the result of good works. The “sheep” acted charitably, giving food, drink, and clothing to the needy. The “goats” showed no charity. This seems to result in salvation for the sheep and damnation for the goats.

However, Scripture does not contradict itself, and the Bible clearly and repeatedly teaches that salvation is by faith through the grace of God and not by our good works (see John 1:12 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/John%201.12); Acts 15:11 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Acts%2015.11); Romans 3:22-24 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rom%203.22-24);Romans 4:4-8 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rom%204.4-8); Romans 7:24-25 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rom%207.24-25); Romans 8:12 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rom%208.12); Galatians 3:6-9 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Gal%203.6-9); and Ephesians 2:8-10 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Eph%202.8-10)). In fact, Jesus Himself makes it clear in the parable that the salvation of the “sheep” is not based on their works—their inheritance was theirs “since the creation of the world” (Matthew 25:34 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Matt%2025.34)), long before they could ever do any good works!

The good works mentioned in the parable are not the cause of salvation but the effect of salvation. As Christians we become like Christ (see Romans 8:29 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rom%208.29); 2 Corinthians 3:18 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/2%20Cor%203.18); and Colossians 2:6-7 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Col%202.6-7)). Galatians 5:22 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Gal%205.22) tells us that the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control. Good works in a Christian's life are the direct overflow of these traits, and are only acceptable to God because of the relationship that exists between servant and Master, the saved and their Savior, the sheep and their Shepherd (see Ephesians 2:10 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Eph%202.10)).

The core message of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats is that God's people will love others. Good works will result from our relationship to the Shepherd. Followers of Christ will treat others with kindness, serving them as if they were serving Christ Himself. The unregenerate live in the opposite manner. While “goats” can indeed perform acts of kindness and charity, their hearts are not right with God, and their actions are not for the right purpose – to honor and worship God.

Agree with Wondergirl!

Work comes as a outcome of Grace, forgiveness, '' Those who are forgiven much, will Love more'' with the example of women with perfume. When we are being transformed glory to glory, in Christ's likeness, Displaying fruits of Holy Spirit, by showing our love as Christ said, love one another as I have loved you, if you love me you'll keep my commandments. SO, all the works, just to show God how much we respect and Love, even though we fail sometimes but not in order to get saved.

Well I agree with you both in that it is by Grace and grace ONLY... works will follow because that is what grace produces. But I disagree that the Lord is talking to the church when he is separating the sheep from the goats. I believe that once the church is raptured, the gospel of the Kingdom will be in place. It is the same thing John the baptized preached. Repent... the Kingdom of God is at hand... Jesus is coming to take his rightful place. It is NOT the same thing as the gospel of grace. The church will already be with Christ, already experience the Judgment seat and had the marriage supper of the lamb. These sheep and goat that Jesus is separating are those that are on earth when Christ returns. Plus there are plenty of people who call on the name of the Lord who do not have time to do "works", they either die ( death bed confessions like the thief), or they are ignorant of grace and understanding all that is involved and really because they do not understand the love OF the Father, they live almost as bad as the world. Yes. I believe that heaven is full of people who did NOTHING we would consider as good on this earth and simply believed that Jesus died for them. I know, I know... that's pure heresy! But I believe it. Want to know what the will of the Father is? Not doing good, not being good, not helping the poor... it is to believe on HIS SON!

That isn't to say, I believe you should live like the devil after salvation, because if one REALLY understand Grace, they won't want to! The problem is...the church today, the pulpit today, don't preach Jesus. We are changed by beholding Jesus the bible says. The pulpits preach us to be self focused. What have you done recently? Do you struggle with bitterness? Can you take lemons and make lemonade? This type of preaching in MY opinion is nothing more than trying to fix the old nature, which has to die, it cannot be cleaned up, fixed up or polished. It has to die. We are NOT changed by realizing how miserable we have failed. We are CHANGED by beholding Jesus, his GRACE, what it really means, what really took place at the cross. Now let me tell ya, THAT is some GOOD NEWS! That is life changing news! sorry for the rant...I'm struggling to find a church who can preach grace without trying to balance it with the Law. Where sin abounds ...grace MUCH more abounds. Churches are petrified if they preach THAT people will go crazy. Grace is the antidote for sin. God isn't imputing sin to us, so lets stop talking about it, focus on Christ and I promise sin will go bye bye. ( I know, I know but I am passionate about Grace and the more I understand it the passionate I get!)

Who are your "goats"?

Who are your "goats"?

I hope this doesn't come up twice. I don't know what happened to my first answer... I will try again. The goats are the people in Revelation who refused to repent, cursed God, followed the anti-Christ and or took the mark of the beast. The sheep would be all that survived without the mark and were waiting for the return of Christ after the 7 year trib. Moses and Elijah ( representing the law and the prophets) will be the two witnesses who the anti-Christ tries to kill and isn't successful until the Lord allows it. I am sure their will be plenty of people believing them during that time as well and the 144,000 Jewish remnant that the Lord protects while they evangelize and proclaim Christ's return.

I hope this doesn't come up twice. I don't know what happened to my first answer... I will try again. The goats are the people in Revelation who refused to repent, cursed God, followed the anti-Christ and or took the mark of the beast. The sheep would be all that survived without the mark and were waiting for the return of Christ after the 7 year trib. Moses and Elijah ( representing the law and the prophets) will be the two witnesses who the anti-Christ tries to kill and isn't successful until the Lord allows it. I am sure their will be plenty of people believing them during that time as well and the 144,000 Jewish remnant that the Lord protects while they evangelize and proclaim Christ's return.
Heavenly days!

Heavenly days!

Hell on earth! I feel like when I talk with people who believe Revelation is all over, that you or they think I am FOR the tribulation period. Just because I believe in a literal 7 year trib doesn't mean I relish in it. I hate the thought... it's HORRIFYING! I didn't write it, it isn't MY idea. I believe it's what the bible teaches. All the more reason to see people come the Jesus. I think it's coming and soon. No man knows the day or hour but we can know it's near.

Hell on earth! I feel like when I talk with people who believe Revelation is all over, that you or they think I am FOR the tribulation period. Just because I believe in a literal 7 year trib doesn't mean I relish in it. I hate the thought... it's HORRIFYING! I didn't write it, it isn't MY idea. I believe it's what the bible teaches. All the more reason to see people come the Jesus. I think it's coming and soon. No man knows the day or hour but we can know it's near.
Right -- the end of the world has been predicted since at least 66 A.D.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events

...a literal 7 year trib... All the more reason to see people come [to] Jesus.
THAT'S a good reason to come to Jesus? Oh, I so hope not!

...I'm struggling to find a church who can preach grace without trying to balance it with the Law. Where sin abounds ...grace MUCH more abounds. Churches are petrified if they preach THAT people will go crazy

Listen to Pstr. Joseph Prince (New Creation Church). I am 100 percent sure you are looking for him.

Listen to Pstr. Joseph Prince (New Creation Church). I am 100 percent sure you are looking for him.

Precious,

Ha ha... yes He IS my Pastor... I just can't find anyone like him near me... not even somewhat close to being a grace church. He is what I listen to all day everyday.

THAT'S a good reason to come to Jesus? Oh, I so hope not!

What does that mean? IF there is going to be a 7 year tribulation period and there will be people suffering and starving... wouldn't it stand to reason that coming to Jesus now is better? I don't get why you said that. Listen, Jesus saves... he saves us from ourselves, hell, danger, sickness, worry, and on and on and on AND a 7 year tribulation period. He is the only way to the Father! That's what HE does THAT's why he came. Why do YOU think people should come to Jesus? I don't believe in preaching hell fire to get people saved because I believe it is the goodness of God that causes a man to repent... but there is nothing wrong with being informed. If the tribulation period is coming soon as many believe... I think it's a great reason to start being interested in what Jesus has to offer. But that's just me.

What does that mean? IF there is going to be a 7 year tribulation period and there will be people suffering and starving... wouldn't it stand to reason that coming to Jesus now is better? I don't get why you said that. Listen, Jesus saves... he saves us from ourselves, hell, danger, sickness, worry, and on and on and on AND a 7 year tribulation period. He is the only way to the Father! That's what HE does THAT's why he came. Why do YOU think people should come to Jesus? I don't believe in preaching hell fire to get people saved because I believe it is the goodness of God that causes a man to repent... but there is nothing wrong with being informed. If the tribulation period is coming soon as many believe... I think it's a great reason to start being interested in what Jesus has to offer. But that's just me.
Come to Jesus because there's an ax hanging over your head? "Repent! The end is near!" Wrong approach! Wrong reason! Threats of a tribulation period is NOT good evangelizing.

Kk
Right -- the end of the world has been predicted since at least 66 A.D.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events

2 Peter 3:3-4 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this coming he promised? Ever since our ancestors died everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.

Just saying...


Come to Jesus because there's an ax hanging over your head? "Repent! The end is near!" Wrong approach! Wrong reason! Threats of a tribulation period is NOT good evangelizing.

I get it. It takes what it takes for people. I think the best approach is LOVE because most people will not respond to that. Having said that, I was saved as a little girl and one very very big reason was because I didn't want to go to hell. It took. I learned it was about far more... but there are people who are frightened of the future and they should be informed. As long as souls are coming to Jesus for salvation does it matter how they got interested?

but there are people who are frightened of the future and they should be informed. As long as souls are coming to Jesus for salvation does it matter how they got interested?
Scare the devil outta them!!!

And I've held back on commenting about Joseph Prince....

Not fair, I said LOVE and the goodness of God is the best approach. Hey, don't hold back... lol you never have before.

Not fair, I said LOVE and the goodness of God is the best approach. Hey, don't hold back... lol you never have before.
You concluded with "As long as souls are coming to Jesus for salvation does it matter how they got interested?"

Actually, yes, it does.

What are that Prince guy's credentials?

I believe that once the church is raptured, the gospel of the Kingdom will be in place. It is the same thing John the baptized preached. Repent... the Kingdom of God is at hand... Jesus is coming to take his rightful place. It is NOT the same thing as the gospel of grace.

This is exactly what I said. You will not find any of this stated in the Bible, it's an artificial system that people use to pigeonhole God. And by the way, there's one gospel, not two. Two different gospels or means or salvation borders on some very ancient heresies.

Kk

2 Peter 3:3-4 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this coming he promised? Ever since our ancestors died everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.

Just saying...



Better get your context right before you "say," then, because in context he's talking about people who deny Jesus will return at all.


I get it. It takes what it takes for people. I think the best approach is LOVE because most people will not respond to that. Having said that, I was saved as a little girl and one very very big reason was because I didn't want to go to hell. It took. I learned it was about far more... but there are people who are frightened of the future and they should be informed. As long as souls are coming to Jesus for salvation does it matter how they got interested?

Except it doesn't work. Scare tactics and the Jonathan Edwards approach simply do not work any more. People aren't afraid of the future. They're afraid of the present. Love, compassion, sincere devotion to helping people, the Church at large has lost these things. To many segments of it have become nothing but negativity. "You don't live like I say you should! You're going to hell!" IT DOESN'T WORK. All it does is drive people away. And by the way, those same people, when they hear stuff like your rapture lecture, laugh themselves into coughing fits. That stuff doesn't work, either, especially since it's not biblical.

Precious,

Ha ha... yes He IS my Pastor... I just can't find anyone like him near me... not even somewhat close to being a grace church. He is what I listen to all day everyday.

Lololol, Same here all day every day. Good to know something in common. ;)

Dave,

I don't think scare tactics are the best way to get someone saved. It worked for ME. I was petrified of going to hell. Was that the only reason I was saved. I don't know, I was 4 or under. I said the bible it is the goodness of God that causes a man to repent. However, there are cases where people realize they are sinners and are afraid they will die and go to hell and accept Jesus that way. Don't tell me it has never happened I KNOW it has.

WG... Seriously? There is no wrong way to come to Jesus, and if you don't believe me ask someone in hell. Oh yeah, I forgot, you don't believe in hell. Never mind.

Precious,

He is the BEST. I learn something every time I listen to him. Every single time. He is brilliant, he is full of the Holy Spirit. I started on this site in 2008 and the things I believed back then, are not all that I do now. I am a grace girl... all the way.

I don't believe in the same kind of hell you do, classyT.

But have they really "come to Jesus"? If I threaten and beat my kids to go to church, and they do out of fear, then what am I -- and they?

WG,

I came to Jesus because I was a little girl and the thoughts of hell scared me. I was told Jesus loved me and died for me so I didn't have to go if I accepted his free gift of salvation. I believed salvation meant saved from hell. I took it and RAN. It took. It worked. It won't on everyone. My father-in-law would have none of it, having said that he DID accept Jesus before he passed. I don't think the whole you will end up in hell otherwise was the reason. It takes what it takes unless you don't think I am a fully committed Christian. Lol I'm pretty passionate about HIM.

WG,

I worked with the sweetest most adorable, darling, sweet Hindu woman last year. I adored her. I'm telling you this because we argued whether a Hindu had to accept Jesus. She believes in so many Gods, thinks she may have one God kind of like a Jesus. Anyway, she had lumps in her breasts and I prayed with her. I said the biopsy would be completely clean in Jesus name. It was. She LOVED that I prayed with her. Every time there was any issue at work, she grabbed my hands, told me to pray and we did. I adore her. I still believe she needs to accept Jesus, I also believe she will, eventually. It was no accident I worked with her, and no accident she loved for me to pray. She said she didn't know how. I would have NEVER EVER EVER told her she was headed for hell. It would be MORE than inappropriate. Love is the answer... and God IS love. She will be in heaven one day, not a doubt in my mind.

Precious,

That is AWESOME! I tell anyone remotely interested in Jesus to watch, I pass out his books. He makes Jesus REAL! I needed his message. The Lord has used him and I believe is restoring Paul's gospel. I went to see him in Dallas one year and I remember telling my Dad, "it is almost as if the Apostle Paul is preaching"! That REALLY worried my father, a wonderful man of God who really GOT grace for everyone but himself. He is with the Lord now. I believe he is thrilled I listen to Prince now.

Dave,

Seriously? Paul even calls his gospel... "MY gospel". No! Not at ALL what John Preached. Did John preach the death, burial and resurrection? Wow if he did my bible is missing some pages? DUDE you are being deceived! John preached to repent, the Kingdom of God is at hand. He believe Jesus was there to take over with his Kingdom. He EVEN question if he had the right guy! Listen, I believe EVERYONE gets to heaven because of Jesus and his shed blood. But that was NOT what the people of the OT thought. They had a TYPE of Jesus with the animial sacrifices... for the most part ( meaning most Jewish people( they had no idea Jesus would die and redeem them. Let me be clear... Jesus is the ONLY way. It is all about FAITH and even though the OT saints didn't know who Jesus was he still redeemed them. But once the church is raptured, the message will be... REPENT... Jesus is coming back.

I don't believe in the same kind of hell you do, classyT.

But have they really "come to Jesus"? If I threaten and beat my kids to go to church, and they do out of fear, then what am I -- and they?
My daughter did the same thing; as a small child a teacher warned her about hell and told her heaven was a place where there was always candy and goodies so she should say these words so she can go to the candy place and not to the bad place.

Today she feels manipulated. That is a horrible thing to do to small children, and even though it worked on you, I find it repulsive. To this day she hasn't gotten her faith back because she feels like those teachers took advantage of a child's innocence to jerk her around and get her to do what they said.

That's another result of the tactic you're talking about. Maybe it worked for you, but I could possibly have a lost child because of it. Pardon me if I don't jump on the bandwagon.


Dave,

Seriously? Paul even calls his gospel... "MY gospel". No! Not at ALL what John Preached. Did John preach the death, burial and resurrection? Wow if he did my bible is missing some pages? DUDE you are being deceived! John preached to repent, the Kingdom of God is at hand. He believe Jesus was there to take over with his Kingdom. He EVEN question if he had the right guy! Listen, I believe EVERYONE gets to heaven because of Jesus and his shed blood. But that was NOT what the people of the OT thought. They had a TYPE of Jesus with the animial sacrifices... for the most part ( meaning most Jewish people( they had no idea Jesus would die and redeem them. Let me be clear... Jesus is the ONLY way. It is all about FAITH and even though the OT saints didn't know who Jesus was he still redeemed them. But once the church is raptured, the message will be... REPENT... Jesus is coming back.

Seriously? Even most major dispensationalists won't go that far and claim there are two gospels. John didn't preach death and resurrection because, DUH, he didn't know about it. If your knowledge of the Bible is really that superficial and based on these phony systems, I don't know what else to tell you. Until you're ready to chuck all that garbage and let the Bible speak for itself, there's no way you're going to be teachable.

And before you start trying to lecture me about dispensational stuff again, let me remind you: I started out dispensational and grew past it because I learned it's bunk. You need to start looking with a more critical eye. People who don't question their ideas and beliefs are the people who stagnate.

And before you start trying to lecture me about dispensational stuff again, let me remind you: I started out dispensational and grew past it because I learned it's bunk. You need to start looking with a more critical eye. People who don't question their ideas and beliefs are the people who stagnate.

Ok. First, I am sorry about your daughter. Listen, the gospel is NOT accept Jesus so you don't go to hell. I get that and I am NOT asking you to jump on any band wagon. My parents had just gotten saved they literally knew nothing. They did tell me that Jesus LOVED me and died for me so that I didn't have to go to hell. I'm not the least bit sad it happened that way though. I got saved! I know better and so I have done better with my own kids. But It wasn't until my 50's that I have really understood completely that I need the gospel EVERY SINGLE DAY! It wasn't a one time event and move on... It is the power of God unto salvation for me every day of my life. It's been a journey. There ain't nothing stagnate about me. No way.


As far as you saying you believed it before but debunked the entire thing means ZIP to me. I know you know it. Of course John didn't know about the Gospel of GRACE because he had no idea there was going to be a GRACE period. As far as he was concerned, Jesus was there to set up his Kingdom. As we ALL know now, that isn't what happened because Jesus had to die and redeem mankind. It's called the Grace period and it WILL end. There are different dispensations and different "present truths" as Peter said in his epistle. John the Baptize present truth is NOT the same as Paul's "present truth", which is NOT the same as Moses' "present truth", which of course is NOT the same as Abraham's "present truth", and last but not least it is NOT the same as Adam's "present truth". Same gospel? Of COURSE it is! Everyone comes to the Father through FAITH and because of Jesus! Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world. But he deals with people differently depending on the dispensation. This isn't rocket science. Surely you can see it even if you DID debunk it. Once the grace dispensation is OVER and it WILL end with the Rapture and the unveiling of the anti-Christ, what will be preached will NOT BE the gospel of GRACE. Presented to the people during the tribulation period will BE... YO! Look UP people on the EARTH the Messiah is coming back to Rule and Reign believe it, believe in HIM. It's exactly the same thing John the baptized preach. I'm not suggesting a different Gospel as much as I am saying it will be a new "present truth" Understand?

What about Hebrews 11?

I'd never heard of dispensationalism and the rapture until I saw them mentioned on this site years ago. Seems like a lot of to-do about nothing. But then we humans like to make things more complicated than they really are.

As far as you saying you believed it before but debunked the entire thing means ZIP to me. I know you know it. Of course John didn't know about the Gospel of GRACE because he had no idea there was going to be a GRACE period. As far as he was concerned, Jesus was there to set up his Kingdom. As we ALL know now, that isn't what happened because Jesus had to die and redeem mankind. It's called the Grace period and it WILL end. There are different dispensations and different "present truths" as Peter said in his epistle. John the Baptize present truth is NOT the same as Paul's "present truth", which is NOT the same as Moses' "present truth", which of course is NOT the same as Abraham's "present truth", and last but not least it is NOT the same as Adam's "present truth". Same gospel? Of COURSE it is! Everyone comes to the Father through FAITH and because of Jesus! Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world. But he deals with people differently depending on the dispensation. This isn't rocket science. Surely you can see it even if you DID debunk it. Once the grace dispensation is OVER and it WILL end with the Rapture and the unveiling of the anti-Christ, what will be preached will NOT BE the gospel of GRACE. Presented to the people during the tribulation period will BE... YO! Look UP people on the EARTH the Messiah is coming back to Rule and Reign believe it, believe in HIM. It's exactly the same thing John the baptized preach. I'm not suggesting a different Gospel as much as I am saying it will be a new "present truth" Understand?

I see a whole lot of theological rambling with nothing from the Bible to back it up. That sums up dispensationalism in a nutshell, all right.

So we nitpick the verses we may want. Do we disregard the ones that don't make sense. The bible is full of inane things. "make sure you put your daughter in a room without windows or so she can't see the front door". Sirach, I believe. Beating your slaves, stoning an adulterous woman, having your disobedient children killed. One verse says "sins of the father" another says, no sins of the father to the children". Paul says we were all formed from the dirt of the earth-didn't he read about Adams rib? The bible was never designed for justification, otherwise we would all have sinned 700 different ways according to Leviticus unless you may be a very devout Orthodox Jew. Then people say, well "that's just the OT-and the commandments are?
The past is past, the future is unknown even to Jesus, do the best you can today.
How many times have people predicted "The end is near"? Paul did, 2,000 years ago.
Last year we had the Mayan calendar worry, OOPS still around. Do unto others.

I see a whole lot of theological rambling with nothing from the Bible to back it up. That sums up dispensationalism in a nutshell, all right.

LOL yeah that's what you say, when you got nuttin. It's truth. Try to rightly divide the truth... you may wise up!

WG

What do you mean what about Hebrews 11? I don't get it... it's the faith chapter not sure what your question is...


What about Hebrews 11?

I'd never heard of dispensationalism and the rapture until I saw them mentioned on this site years ago. Seems like a lot of to-do about nothing. But then we humans like to make things more complicated than they really are.

And I had never heard that people actually didn't believe in dispensations. Wow! I don't know how you get around it. It's right there in black and white.


So we nitpick the verses we may want. Do we disregard the ones that don't make sense. The bible is full of inane things. "make sure you put your daughter in a room without windows or so she can't see the front door". Sirach, I believe. Beating your slaves, stoning an adulterous woman, having your disobedient children killed. One verse says "sins of the father" another says, no sins of the father to the children". Paul says we were all formed from the dirt of the earth-didn't he read about Adams rib? The bible was never designed for justification, otherwise we would all have sinned 700 different ways according to Leviticus unless you may be a very devout Orthodox Jew. Then people say, well "that's just the OT-and the commandments are?
The past is past, the future is unknown even to Jesus, do the best you can today.
How many times have people predicted "The end is near"? Paul did, 2,000 years ago.
Last year we had the Mayan calendar worry, OOPS still around. Do unto others.

A day with God is like a 1000 years and a 1000 years as one day. Our time in not God's time but he doesn't want us to be ignorant. Jesus may have said only God knows the day and hour but he also said we could know if we were NEAR the time... just saying

LOL yeah that's what you say, when you got nuttin. It's truth. Try to rightly divide the truth... you may wise up!

Speaking of having nuttin, you stole that line from me. I've used it many times in discussions with you. I'm glad to see you're finally learning SOMETHING from me, at least.

And you thoroughly missed my point (as usual). Your little treatise had NOT ONE SINGLE BIBLE VERSE IN IT. So there was no "word" there to divide, which was exactly my point.



WG

What do you mean what about Hebrews 11? I don't get it... it's the faith chapter not sure what your question is...



You seriously don't get what that chapter has to do with your little theological mishmash? Unbelievable. I'll leave that one for WG to explain.




And I had never heard that people actually didn't believe in dispensations. Wow! I don't know how you get around it. It's right there in black and white.


Okay, show me the word "dispensation" there in black and white. It's not there until some self-important theologian crams it in there. Get real.



A day with God is like a 1000 years and a 1000 years as one day. Our time in not God's time but he doesn't want us to be ignorant. Jesus may have said only God knows the day and hour but he also said we could know if we were NEAR the time... just saying

Nice going! You just shot yourself in the foot. Yes, He said we could know if it was NEAR. But "NEAR" could be several thousand years from now because a day with God is like 1000 years. Hello? McFly? Might be a good idea to start listening to yourself once in a while ;)

Dave, Dave, Dave,

Am I rookie? Really? You want scripture : 2 Peter 1:12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them and be established in THE PRESENT TRUTH! Hmmm? There were past truths that are no longer applicable. We are under grace, that is now the present truth!

I clearly said that everyone gets to heaven the same way... FAITH! So I really don't get why she put Hebrews 11 out there. So yes, it needs to be explained.

Ha ha ha... I liked the McFly jab. I actually use that a LOT! Sigh... well when you are so messed up that you can't even see the times... the fig tree, Israel becomes a nation in a day and THIS generations seeing the son of man coming... I can't help you out. We can KNOW it's near even at the door but when you can't read the times and the seasons and you want to be a scoffer, Hello? McFly is anything IN THERE?

Dave, Dave, Dave,

Am I rookie? Really? You want scripture : 2 Peter 1:12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them and be established in THE PRESENT TRUTH! Hmmm? There were past truths that are no longer applicable. We are under grace, that is now the present truth!
Yes, I forgot, you learned a new cliché. That phrase doesn't even remotely mean what you think it does. It has nothing to do with dispensations or any of that other phony theology. The NIV puts it much more accurately:

So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have.

Nothing in that chapter even remotely hints at any kind of "present" or "past" truth. In context, he's saying you'll do well to stick with what you have now, and when I get there I'll give you more.

Read the rest of the chapter and find out what's really going on, McFly ;)

But this is how dispensationalism works: grab a word or phrase here and another one there and put it together into a chimera that never actually existed. You are making my point for me.

And by the way, I don't know if you're a rookie or not, but you sure theology like one! :P

...he's saying you'll do well to stick with what you have now, and when I get there I'll give you more.
Like Hebrews 11 (NIV) says:

1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

39 These [aforementioned ancients] were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Like Hebrews 11 (NIV) says:

1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

39 These [aforementioned ancients] were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
Precisely. That chapter says all of the people in the BC world were reconciled to God, saved if you will, by FAITH, just like we are. No difference. No two ways of salvation. This chapter makes it as clear as it can be, and when you presented it, the response was "I don't get it."

Precisely. That chapter says all of the people in the BC world were reconciled to God, saved if you will, by FAITH, just like we are. No difference. No two ways of salvation. This chapter makes it as clear as it can be, and when you presented it, the response was "I don't get it."

Ok how many ways can I say this... I already said everyone was saved the same way!! That's why I didn't get WG post... don't make me come through this computer and smack you sideways. EVERYONE comes by Faith and by the Blood of JESUS CHRIST. The blood of bulls and goats were only a type, it only covered their sin because the Lamb of God was slain before the foundation of the world. I said it already. It is FAITH! So her post was not necessary and confusing to me. And yes I didn't get her post because I already said sit. :P :P ugh errrr and grrrrf and yowsie you are frustrating.

Ok how many ways can I say this... I already said everyone was saved the same way!! That's why I didn't get WG post...
But the "ancients" didn't KNOW exactly what God was going to do and how He was going to do it. They simply had faith He would follow through. You had said each person had "a truth."

John the Baptize present truth is NOT the same as Paul's "present truth", which is NOT the same as Moses' "present truth", which of course is NOT the same as Abraham's "present truth", and last but not least it is NOT the same as Adam's "present truth".
No, there was only one truth, and they trusted God to follow through on that truth.

WG,


Disagree. The present truth in the garden of Eden was don't eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil... they did! Their answer is the same as my answer : Jesus! ( Genesis 3:15) When Moses gave the big 10 that was the present truth for about 1500 years. The Lord visited their sins, there was generational curses, they lived UNDER THE LAW. They had to offer animal sacrifices, They couldn't eat pork, they couldn't touch the dead... etc. etc... The Holy Spirit did not indwell them, he came upon them. That is NOT my truth. My truth is Grace. Once I accepted Jesus as my savior, I was made righteous, my sins are no longer imputed to me, the Holy Spirit indwells me... different truths for different dispensations. But let me be CLEAR Jesus was always the answer.
By Jesus Christ, I no longer live with generational curses.

I tried to edit the last line shouldn't be there, it belonged up a couple sentences but I couldn't edit it.. sorry.

Oh for goodness sake, why can't you religious people just believe what you believe without trying to force others to believe the same thing?

Live and let live already! No way you're all ever going to agree so just let it go, don't give yourself an ulcer and just go on living your life the way you see fit, and believe what you want to believe even if others disagree. Why do you feel the need to have others verify and solidify what you believe unless you yourself have doubts?

This thread was going to fail from minute one. Back up your beliefs with scripture? Um..that's like asking a magician to back up his trick with actual magic. Actually, the magician would have a better chance backing it up. No two Christians, no two religions, no two people that follow the same religion, will ever agree on everything "scripture" has to say. That's just a fact, because everyone that reads the bible interprets it in their own way, picks and chooses things to solidify their opinion and beliefs.

I just really wonder why religious people always ask questions like this. It reeks of insecurity and doubt, begging people to back up what you want to believe. Why not just believe it and forget what other people think?

And before you chastise me for posting, you asked the question begging for someone to say exactly what I just said.

It is called a belief for a reason. It's not called a fact for the very same reason. Just believe and stop trying to get others to share that belief.

Good Luck.

THIS THING IS BEING WEIRD! IT PUT TWO DIFFERENT POSTS TOGETHER INTO ONE AND I CAN'T GET IT TO STOP! AND BESIDES, I'VE FALLEN AND I CAN'T GET UP - wait, that was something else...



Ok how many ways can I say this... I already said everyone was saved the same way!! That's why I didn't get WG post... don't make me come through this computer and smack you sideways. EVERYONE comes by Faith and by the Blood of JESUS CHRIST. The blood of bulls and goats were only a type, it only covered their sin because the Lamb of God was slain before the foundation of the world. I said it already. It is FAITH! So her post was not necessary and confusing to me. And yes I didn't get her post because I already said sit. :P :P ugh errrr and grrrrf and yowsie you are frustrating.
You said there are two different ways of salvation. You said we're presently under grace, but all the ages around it are under something different. If this doesn't illustrate that you have no idea WHAT you're saying, I don't know what will. Because you are going in circles, saying one thing then saying another then saying I didn't say that but you did. You said John and after the rapture and all those people are under a different system than grace, but now you say they're not. Make up your mind.

For me, it's partly intellectual exercise, and partly it's just fun to tie ClassyT in knots using her own words!


Oh for goodness sake, why can't you religious people just believe what you believe without trying to force others to believe the same thing?

Live and let live already! No way you're all ever going to agree so just let it go, don't give yourself an ulcer and just go on living your life the way you see fit, and believe what you want to believe even if others disagree. Why do you feel the need to have others verify and solidify what you believe unless you yourself have doubts?

This thread was going to fail from minute one. Back up your beliefs with scripture? Um..that's like asking a magician to back up his trick with actual magic. Actually, the magician would have a better chance backing it up. No two Christians, no two religions, no two people that follow the same religion, will ever agree on everything "scripture" has to say. That's just a fact, because everyone that reads the bible interprets it in their own way, picks and chooses things to solidify their opinion and beliefs.

I just really wonder why religious people always ask questions like this. It reeks of insecurity and doubt, begging people to back up what you want to believe. Why not just believe it and forget what other people think?

And before you chastise me for posting, you asked the question begging for someone to say exactly what I just said.

It is called a belief for a reason. It's not called a fact for the very same reason. Just believe and stop trying to get others to share that belief.

Good Luck.

For me, it's partly intellectual exercise, and partly it's just fun to tie ClassyT in knots using her own words!


Oh for goodness sake, why can't you religious people just believe what you believe without trying to force others to believe the same thing?

Live and let live already! No way you're all ever going to agree so just let it go, don't give yourself an ulcer and just go on living your life the way you see fit, and believe what you want to believe even if others disagree. Why do you feel the need to have others verify and solidify what you believe unless you yourself have doubts?

This thread was going to fail from minute one. Back up your beliefs with scripture? Um..that's like asking a magician to back up his trick with actual magic. Actually, the magician would have a better chance backing it up. No two Christians, no two religions, no two people that follow the same religion, will ever agree on everything "scripture" has to say. That's just a fact, because everyone that reads the bible interprets it in their own way, picks and chooses things to solidify their opinion and beliefs.

I just really wonder why religious people always ask questions like this. It reeks of insecurity and doubt, begging people to back up what you want to believe. Why not just believe it and forget what other people think?

And before you chastise me for posting, you asked the question begging for someone to say exactly what I just said.

It is called a belief for a reason. It's not called a fact for the very same reason. Just believe and stop trying to get others to share that belief.

Good Luck.

Oh for goodness sake, why can't you religious people just believe what you believe without trying to force others to believe the same thing?

Live and let live already! No way you're all ever going to agree so just let it go, don't give yourself an ulcer and just go on living your life the way you see fit, and believe what you want to believe even if others disagree. Why do you feel the need to have others verify and solidify what you believe unless you yourself have doubts?

This thread was going to fail from minute one. Back up your beliefs with scripture? Um..that's like asking a magician to back up his trick with actual magic. Actually, the magician would have a better chance backing it up. No two Christians, no two religions, no two people that follow the same religion, will ever agree on everything "scripture" has to say. That's just a fact, because everyone that reads the bible interprets it in their own way, picks and chooses things to solidify their opinion and beliefs.

I just really wonder why religious people always ask questions like this. It reeks of insecurity and doubt, begging people to back up what you want to believe. Why not just believe it and forget what other people think?

And before you chastise me for posting, you asked the question begging for someone to say exactly what I just said.

It is called a belief for a reason. It's not called a fact for the very same reason. Just believe and stop trying to get others to share that belief.

Good Luck.

Why do people argue politics? I argue with Dwashbur and WG because it's fun. I never knew people believed some of the things they believe. I thought all Christians believed in different dispensations. I am much more informed when I discuss Christianity with others because I now understand why people believe and interpret the bible they way they do. Believe it or not, I am much more enlightened. I'm not insecure in my beliefs and I do not doubt mine either. I don't recall begging anyone but I did ask people to site scripture because I like to see where they got their beliefs. This is MY interest, it is MY passion and I like to discuss it. I don't get your issue? I don't consider this thread a failure in any way, sorry you do. If you want to let me have it over anything, it should be that the post would have been better put in the discussion board. So for that I do apologize.

Dave,

Please show me the post where I EVER said there was two ways of salvation! I never said that. NEVER EVER. You know this and you are just having fun. I said there was only ONE way anyone gets to the Father and that was by faith and through Jesus Christ. What I said was there were TWO gospels. The gospel of Grace, which is what Paul preached and the gospel of the Kingdom which is what John the Baptized preached. I'm not looking for the second coming... did you know that? I'm looking for Jesus to come back in the clouds not on earth. I'm looking for the rapture my blessed hope! After the rapture takes place, the good news will be, Repent, Jesus Christ is coming to rule and reign.. the exact thing John the Baptized preached. John the baptized did not preach death, burial, resurrection, Jesus is the last Adam, you are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise after you believe, Faith plus NOTHING, the finished work of Christ. He didn't because he didn't know a thing about it. ALL He knew was Jesus Christ was ushering in the Kingdom, so repent and believe. That is what is going to be a preached again!

Oh for goodness sake, why can't you religious people just believe what you believe without trying to force others to believe the same thing?
No one is forcing anything.


Live and let live already! No way you're all ever going to agree
We have to agree?


so just let it go, don't give yourself an ulcer and just go on living your life the way you see fit
No one is getting an ulcer.


and believe what you want to believe even if others disagree.
We do.


Why do you feel the need to have others verify and solidify what you believe unless you yourself have doubts?
Huh? You've never played chess? Been in a debate? Your world is black and white with no shades of gray?


This thread was going to fail from minute one. Back up your beliefs with scripture? Um..that's like asking a magician to back up his trick with actual magic. Actually, the magician would have a better chance backing it up. No two Christians, no two religions, no two people that follow the same religion, will ever agree on everything "scripture" has to say. That's just a fact, because everyone that reads the bible interprets it in their own way, picks and chooses things to solidify their opinion and beliefs.
Yeah, we know that. That's why we're here discussing stuff. And learning from each other.


I just really wonder why religious people always ask questions like this. It reeks of insecurity and doubt, begging people to back up what you want to believe. Why not just believe it and forget what other people think?
You're the one who said this site is dead. So when three long-time members come to the site and eagerly and happily revive a long-dead board with a lively discussion about a subject that interests them, that's A Bad Thing?


And before you chastise me for posting, you asked the question begging for someone to say exactly what I just said.
No one has except for you.


It is called a belief for a reason. It's not called a fact for the very same reason. Just believe and stop trying to get others to share that belief.
We're not. This sort of discussion happens a lot in religion, especially in Christianity. And now you've made us go off topic. :-(


Good Luck.
We have something better than that. Plus, the angels are jumping up and down with glee.

Dave,

Please show me the post where I EVER said there was two ways of salvation! I never said that. NEVER EVER. You know this and you are just having fun. I said there was only ONE way anyone gets to the Father and that was by faith and through Jesus Christ. What I said was there were TWO gospels. The gospel of Grace, which is what Paul preached and the gospel of the Kingdom which is what John the Baptized preached. I'm not looking for the second coming... did you know that? I'm looking for Jesus to come back in the clouds not on earth. I'm looking for the rapture my blessed hope! After the rapture takes place, the good news will be, Repent, Jesus Christ is coming to rule and reign.. the exact thing John the Baptized preached. John the baptized did not preach death, burial, resurrection, Jesus is the last Adam, you are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise after you believe, Faith plus NOTHING, the finished work of Christ. He didn't because he didn't know a thing about it. ALL He knew was Jesus Christ was ushering in the Kingdom, so repent and believe. That is what is going to be a preached again!

" Paul even calls his gospel... "MY gospel". No! Not at ALL what John Preached. Did John preach the death, burial and resurrection? Wow if he did my bible is missing some pages? DUDE you are being deceived! John preached to repent, the Kingdom of God is at hand. He believe Jesus was there to take over with his Kingdom."

Two gospels = two ways of salvation. Galatians 1:8 says "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!" So if you really want to have two gospels, then everybody who preached - or will preach in some future scenario - this other gospel that you suggest for John etc. then Paul puts them under God's curse. Any way you try to slice it, if you have two gospels, then you have two ways of salvation. Because that's what the Gospel is. You are really digging yourself into a hole here.

Dave,


Exactly if anyone preaches a different gospel let him be cursed! That is for right now! You bet it is! But Dave, there is coming a time when the church is raptured, there will be no more GRACE period and the message will be look up, he is coming back. Listen if the church is raptured that means there is no more church, that period has ended, Paul's gospel of grace, will end. The millions of people who will be SAVED during the tribulation period will not be part of the bride. They will either be martyred... OR they are the people who will populate the earth when Jesus comes back. He will separate the sheep from the goats... the ones with faith waiting on his return go into the 1000 year rule and reign. That's what I believe. OK let me say this s l o w l y... I do not believe in two different ways of salvation. I believe the message changed from back in Moses day ( the Law), to our day, ( Grace) to the coming day ( the Messiah is coming back). ONE WAY TO GOD EVERRRRR - Jesus Christ. There is ONLY ONE WAY. Should I say that again? ONE WAY! The message will simply be different but you still come through Jesus Christ.

Yet again, tons of theological speculation based on an artificial grid that people lay over the Bible to pigeon-hole God and all His doings, with not a single Bible passage to back it up.

Welcome to dispensationalism.

If you would just once sit down and let the Bible speak for itself, you would realize how counter-biblical all this stuff really is. "That is for right now"? That's beyond ridiculous. I don't know any other word for it. This whole "GRACE period" business, "church age" and all that, are made-up ideas that have no actual basis in the text. I've already pointed out how your "present truth" phrase doesn't mean remotely what your theologians have told you it does. And when you add "That is for right now" to the Galatians passage, you are READING INTO the Bible, not learning from it. Try reading the whole thing from cover to cover, WITHOUT the dispensational glasses. You'll be surprised what you find.

And people in the BC days were saved by faith just like everybody else in every age, read Paul for pity's sake. He says that again and again and again. The only difference was level of knowledge about the object of their faith. But it works the same from the beginnings of human history to the present time and forever and ever Amen. FAITH THROUGH GRACE. There's no difference now than there was then, except we have more light than they did. That's it.

There is no "church age" or "age of grace." All of history is the Age Of Grace because that's always how God deals with people. There is no need to yank some out so others wind up with a different whatever. The whole thing is so convoluted and absurd I was amazed how long it took me to realize it. Clearly, it's taking you a bit longer.


Dave,


Exactly if anyone preaches a different gospel let him be cursed! That is for right now! You bet it is! But Dave, there is coming a time when the church is raptured, there will be no more GRACE period and the message will be look up, he is coming back. Listen if the church is raptured that means there is no more church, that period has ended, Paul's gospel of grace, will end. The millions of people who will be SAVED during the tribulation period will not be part of the bride. They will either be martyred... OR they are the people who will populate the earth when Jesus comes back. He will separate the sheep from the goats... the ones with faith waiting on his return go into the 1000 year rule and reign. That's what I believe. OK let me say this s l o w l y... I do not believe in two different ways of salvation. I believe the message changed from back in Moses day ( the Law), to our day, ( Grace) to the coming day ( the Messiah is coming back). ONE WAY TO GOD EVERRRRR - Jesus Christ. There is ONLY ONE WAY. Should I say that again? ONE WAY! The message will simply be different but you still come through Jesus Christ.

Wait a minute, OK. Let me see if I got this right, you believe moses lived during Grace because of his faith? I will agree that Joseph, Abraham... the ones who lived before the law, lived under God's grace.. BUT I do not think poor ol Moses did. You do? Clearly it IS taking me a bit longer... in fact, we will discuss this very thread right after the rapture. Find me. Lol

Wait a minute, OK. Let me see if I got this right, you believe moses lived during Grace because of his faith? I will agree that Joseph, Abraham... the ones who lived before the law, lived under God's grace.. BUT I do not think poor ol Moses did. You do? Clearly it IS taking me a bit longer... in fact, we will discuss this very thread right after the rapture. Find me. Lol
Hebrews 11:24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. 25 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward.

Sounds to me like Moses lived under God's Grace.

WG,

Wow. So if you have faith, you are automatically under God's Grace. I don't think you understand what Jesus died to give us.

WG,

Wow. So if you have faith, you are automatically under God's Grace. I don't think you understand what Jesus died to give us.
Huh? You're NOT under God's Grace if you have faith?

Tell me. What did Jesus die to give us?

WG,

Wow. So if you have faith, you are automatically under God's Grace. I don't think you understand what Jesus died to give us.
Well, let's see. What does that passage say again?

Hebrews 11:24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward.

"By faith Moses [did all these things]. He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ...because he was looking ahead to his reward."

Moses didn't just have faith, he had faith IN CHRIST, though he didn't understand it at the time. Still, the writer credits him with it. And the key element is faith. So yes, this does say that Moses had faith in Christ and was saved thereby.

So it would seem that if you have faith (in Christ, whether incipient or post-resurrection), you are under God's grace. Whether you're Moses or Paul. That's what it says.

Ok. I am not disputing that Moses had Faith. I know that, I get it and I get the blood of bulls and goats were a type and it only covered their sin until the true Lamb came to die. I disagree with you about Moses being under grace! The LAW was given by Moses BUT GRACE and TRUTH came trough Jesus Christ. What do you do with that verse? Moses was a man under law, the law is all about Man DOING to please God... you shall not, you shall not in order for God to bless them. But Grace supplies his blessings for free. Ephesians says we have been blessed with every spiritual blessing. Moses lived under demand, I live under supply. What Jesus did at the cross qualifies me for God to reign his grace on me, and it was NOT SO for those under the law. Moses first order of business was to turn water into blood and that brought death. Jesus turned water into wine, resulting in life and celebration. The first Pentecost when Moses came down from getting the two tablets about 3,000 men died! That was the very first Pentecost according to Jewish scholars, the first Pentecost after Christ rose from the dead 3,000 men were saved! Night and day... Also take note before the law was given, they way the Lord dealt with those children of Israel, was pure grace, the grumbled, they whined, they complained and God just supplied! No one died. There is not one recorded death until after the law was given. God changed his tuned with them and told Moses to tell them they could not draw near. I don't understand how you don't see all that? These people had to DO and WORK to please God, Jesus died and now I am accepted in the beloved just because I believe. They absolutely were not under GRACE! Oh yes, the Lord was still merciful with them, its not the same thing.

It's called the Old covenant and the New covenant. God found fault with the old. Now where sin abounds, Grace super abounds. Grace is the antidote for sin. This was not the case under the law. God visited the people under the laws sins to the third and forth generations, but ME? My sins and iniquities he remembers NO MORE. Paul clearly says God is not imputing sin to us. He did IMPUTE sin to the people under the law. Yes Moses was credited because of his faith. I know this but it is NOT the same as being under Grace. The man was under the law, he GAVE the Law for heaven sakes to the people. Remember the mount of transfiguration? Moses and Elijah were there shining like Jesus and Peter, said let's build tabernacles... what happened? God shut him up... It's not about the Law and the prophets anymore... he said This is my beloved son, HEAR HIM! It was time for the law and the prophets to go bye bye... Grace had come. It's was new and so new that poor Peter even had a hard time grasping it, Paul had to correct him.

I am so confused that you don't see this? You have to know this... right? And yes, all those people under the law and before Christ had faith and it was credited to them. BUT GOD didn't deal with those people under the law, like he does with us today. OK, I'm rambling but I don't understand how you can't see Grace is different from the Law.

I have more to reply but don't have the time right now. But I do want to address this:

"It's called the Old covenant and the New covenant. God found fault with the old."

God CREATED the "old." So I guess you're saying he goofed and had to fix it, right?


Ok. I am not disputing that Moses had Faith. I know that, I get it and I get the blood of bulls and goats were a type and it only covered their sin until the true Lamb came to die. I disagree with you about Moses being under grace! The LAW was given by Moses BUT GRACE and TRUTH came trough Jesus Christ. What do you do with that verse? Moses was a man under law, the law is all about Man DOING to please God... you shall not, you shall not in order for God to bless them. But Grace supplies his blessings for free. Ephesians says we have been blessed with every spiritual blessing. Moses lived under demand, I live under supply. What Jesus did at the cross qualifies me for God to reign his grace on me, and it was NOT SO for those under the law. Moses first order of business was to turn water into blood and that brought death. Jesus turned water into wine, resulting in life and celebration. The first Pentecost when Moses came down from getting the two tablets about 3,000 men died! That was the very first Pentecost according to Jewish scholars, the first Pentecost after Christ rose from the dead 3,000 men were saved! Night and day... Also take note before the law was given, they way the Lord dealt with those children of Israel, was pure grace, the grumbled, they whined, they complained and God just supplied! No one died. There is not one recorded death until after the law was given. God changed his tuned with them and told Moses to tell them they could not draw near. I don't understand how you don't see all that? These people had to DO and WORK to please God, Jesus died and now I am accepted in the beloved just because I believe. They absolutely were not under GRACE! Oh yes, the Lord was still merciful with them, its not the same thing.

It's called the Old covenant and the New covenant. God found fault with the old. Now where sin abounds, Grace super abounds. Grace is the antidote for sin. This was not the case under the law. God visited the people under the laws sins to the third and forth generations, but ME? My sins and iniquities he remembers NO MORE. Paul clearly says God is not imputing sin to us. He did IMPUTE sin to the people under the law. Yes Moses was credited because of his faith. I know this but it is NOT the same as being under Grace. The man was under the law, he GAVE the Law for heaven sakes to the people. Remember the mount of transfiguration? Moses and Elijah were there shining like Jesus and Peter, said let's build tabernacles... what happened? God shut him up... It's not about the Law and the prophets anymore... he said This is my beloved son, HEAR HIM! It was time for the law and the prophets to go bye bye... Grace had come. It's was new and so new that poor Peter even had a hard time grasping it, Paul had to correct him.

I am so confused that you don't see this? You have to know this... right? And yes, all those people under the law and before Christ had faith and it was credited to them. BUT GOD didn't deal with those people under the law, like he does with us today. OK, I'm rambling but I don't understand how you can't see Grace is different from the Law.

Hebrews 8:7 I didn't say it the writer of Hebrews did! For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, "behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah Not according to the covenant I made with their fathers in the days when I took them by the had to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord! He didn't goof! He knew exactly what he was doing! The Law is perfect and righteous it just had no ability to make ME perfect and righteous! All it could do for me, is condemn me. Therefore, Jesus fulfilled the law, became my perfect sacrifice and made me righteous apart from the law... it's called GRACE! This is Christianity 101... I so don't understand what it is you believe! The law demands righteousness and grace supplies it. Moses did NOT live under grace!

Hebrews 8:7 I didn't say it the writer of Hebrews did! For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, "behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah Not according to the covenant I made with their fathers in the days when I took them by the had to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord! He didn't goof! He knew exactly what he was doing! The Law is perfect and righteous it just had no ability to make ME perfect and righteous! All it could do for me, is condemn me. Therefore, Jesus fulfilled the law, became my perfect sacrifice and made me righteous apart from the law... it's called GRACE! This is Christianity 101... I so don't understand what it is you believe! The law demands righteousness and grace supplies it. Moses did NOT live under grace!




1Co 10:1 (https://www.blueletterbible.org/niv/1co/10/1/s_1072001)

For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.







1Co 10:2 (https://www.blueletterbible.org/niv/1co/10/2/s_1072002)

They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.




1Co 10:3 (https://www.blueletterbible.org/niv/1co/10/3/s_1072003)

They all ate the same spiritual food




1Co 10:4 (https://www.blueletterbible.org/niv/1co/10/4/s_1072004)

and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.




"That rock was Christ." Moses followed Christ even though he didn't know it. Grace has been the theme throughout human history, and that includes Moses.

"This is Christianity 101" No, this is dispensationalism 101. The two are anything but synonymous. Moses was saved by Grace through faith (Eph 2:8) just like everyone else who ever was saved, because that faith is in CHRIST. Even in the Old Testament. There is no separate "age of grace" as the dispensationalists say. All of human history is the "age of grace."

Wow! Dave you don't understand GRACE at all nor what Jesus has done for us. Listen, I know that it was Jesus who saved everyone from Adam until now, but you are wrong about them being under grace. They were CLEARLY under the law, when the Lord dealt with them, they were dealt with under the law! Wow! You can't see that? Every now and again he would extend mercy, like with David. These dear people who lived during the law, had to keep the law in order to please God. The law DEMANDED righteousness, Grace supplies it. They did NOT live under grace. And I bet ol Moses would smack you for saying he did! Lol While we are in total agreement about how God saved these people, he dealt with them way different than he does me. If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature, old things are passed away behold all things are become new. And you want me to believe Moses got to live as a new creation? No he didn't. The Holy Spirit didn't take up residence in him. We on this side of the cross have a much better covenant! God DID impute sin to them in the way he dealt with them. There WERE curses that visited the children and their children, and their children's children! I can't believe we haven't discussed this before. I am a little taken back that you don't know what Christ did for you. He changed everything but it means nothing if you don't know what he died to give you.

When we discussed Jesus separating the sheep from the goats, and I asked you how many times do you have to bring someone water, visit them in jail, be kind to them... ect in order to have everlasting life, you stated you didn't know. How do you reconcile the book of Romans with Jesus' teaching? For grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourself, it is a gift from God lest any man should boast? What do you do with these 2 clearly different ideas. Are you more inclined to follow the Lord Jesus words in the gospel? Or do you see these thoughts as somehow complimenting each other? I don't how but if you could explain so I could understand that would be great.

I've known you for how many years and I never knew exactly what you believed. I can see now why we argue all the time. Lol

Dave,

No answer? Come on! You have to have one...

Dave,

No answer? Come on! You have to have one...
We took a mini-vacation over the weekend. But really, there's no much to say, because there's nothing of substance there to respond to. It's all empty speculation with no scriptural backing at all. You really can't see how you pervert the Bible by tossing your theology in there first and wresting the Scriptures to fit your theology. That's more than a little backward, in case you hadn't noticed.

And really, there's not much more we can talk about, and here's the reason:

"I never knew people believed some of the things they believe. I thought all Christians believed in different dispensations."

This is the most naïve statement I have ever seen from a seasoned Christian. Guess what? You are the minority. The vast majority of Christianity doesn't buy dispensationalism. That includes virtually all Protestant denominations, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox, and a host of others. You know NOTHING about the global Christian church. Hence, you are horribly unqualified to try and teach anybody anything about the Church. Go get some education about Christianity outside that little bubble of isolation that you live in, and find out what's going on in the Christian world. Then we can discuss this.

That one statement explains pretty much all of your narrow-mindedness. It's not so much narrow-mindedness as it is ignorance. Happily, the solution is easy: just learn about the rest of your Christian brethren and sistren.

Classy T quote "I never knew people believed some of the things they believe"..... "What do you do with these 2 clearly different ideas.". Well, the Bible is full of them:

Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works."
James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

James 1:13 "Let no man say.. . I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."


Deuteronomy 6:4 "The Lord our God is one Lord."
Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image."


Isaiah 2:4 ".. . And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Joel 3:9-10 "Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong."

Ma0641,

I disagree. It would appear there are contradictions but if the word is rightly divided, ( put in context, know who it is written TO, know what covenant it is under, the bible does NOT contradict itself. That is the reason the apostle Paul specifically said to rightly DIVIDE the word of God.

Dave,

Why won't you answer me? Do you NOT have an answer? I find that hard to believe, I'm asking sincerely, I really want to know and not so I can argue either. I'm curious. Let me ask one more time. What do you do with the book of Romans when you are reading what Jesus said about the sheep and the goats. Are we saved by grace, or do you need to work?

Ma0641,

I disagree. It would appear there are contradictions but if the word is rightly divided, ( put in context, know who it is written TO, know what covenant it is under, the bible does NOT contradict itself. That is the reason the apostle Paul specifically said to rightly DIVIDE the word of God.



Actually, there are lots of apparent contradictions. 2 Samuel says God stirred up David's heart to number the people, whereas 1 Chronicles says it was Satan. In Genesis 14 we are told that Abraham pursued his enemies as far north as Dan. Except that in Abraham's time the city was called Laish. It wasn't called Dan until the time of the judges. And the list goes on.

Refusing to face and consider these things isn't helpful. It's a cop-out.


Ma0641,
Dave,

Why won't you answer me? Do you NOT have an answer? I find that hard to believe, I'm asking sincerely, I really want to know and not so I can argue either. I'm curious. Let me ask one more time. What do you do with the book of Romans when you are reading what Jesus said about the sheep and the goats. Are we saved by grace, or do you need to work?

I'm not going to answer that question because it's not germane to the discussion about dispensationalism. It's just you trying to dodge the subject again, and I'm not going to play your game. I gave you my reply and told you why. The ball is in your court to explain how you can be a Christian for so long and have no idea the rest of the Christian world exists.

Ma0641,

I disagree. It would appear there are contradictions but if the word is rightly divided, ( put in context, know who it is written TO, know what covenant it is under, the bible does NOT contradict itself. That is the reason the apostle Paul specifically said to rightly DIVIDE the word of God.

Dave,

Why won't you answer me? Do you NOT have an answer? I find that hard to believe, I'm asking sincerely, I really want to know and not so I can argue either. I'm curious. Let me ask one more time. What do you do with the book of Romans when you are reading what Jesus said about the sheep and the goats. Are we saved by grace, or do you need to work?

You disagree? Why am I not surprised? You disagree with everyone who doesn't accept your "enlightend" assessment. It's either your way or everyone else is wrong.

I looked up what "rightly divided" means. I'd never heard that term so much emphasized until it was used here on this forum. It seems from my Internet research that one has to be in a certain dispensation in order to "rightly divide" the Word. (I guess Moses was out of luck and didn't qualify....) One citation from rightlydividing.org:

http://www.rightlydividing.org/secondarypages/rightlydividing.html

You disagree? Why am I not surprised? You disagree with everyone who doesn't accept your "enlightend" assessment. It's either your way or everyone else is wrong.

You know, it's OK for me to disagree. I wasn't rude to you and I never once said I was "enlightend". I'm not sure what your problem is, but I hope you feel better now. Geesh


Actually, there are lots of apparent contradictions. 2 Samuel says God stirred up David's heart to number the people, whereas 1 Chronicles says it was Satan. In Genesis 14 we are told that Abraham pursued his enemies as far north as Dan. Except that in Abraham's time the city was called Laish. It wasn't called Dan until the time of the judges. And the list goes on.

Refusing to face and consider these things isn't helpful. It's a cop-out.


Well the scriptures he posted I do not believe they contradict one another if put in the proper context.



I'm not going to answer that question because it's not germane to the discussion about dispensationalism. It's just you trying to dodge the subject again, and I'm not going to play your game. I gave you my reply and told you why. The ball is in your court to explain how you can be a Christian for so long and have no idea the rest of the Christian world exists.

Oh good grief, I am not dodging. I asked you a question and you can't answer it. I've asked you before not here but on FB. I find it very interesting your reluctance. But whatever.

Oh good grief, I am not dodging. I asked you a question and you can't answer it. I've asked you before not here but on FB. I find it very interesting your reluctance. But whatever.
We have to stay on topic. If you want to talk about sheep and goats (and what to feed them?), please start a new thread.

We have to stay on topic. If you want to talk about sheep and goats (and what to feed them?), please start a new thread.
Thanks, WG. She doesn't seem to grasp the idea "stay on topic" when I say it. Maybe she can understand it from you.

I looked up what "rightly divided" means. I'd never heard that term so much emphasized until it was used here on this forum. It seems from my Internet research that one has to be in a certain dispensation in order to "rightly divide" the Word. (I guess Moses was out of luck and didn't qualify....) One citation from rightlydividing.org:

Welcome to Adobe GoLive 6 (http://www.rightlydividing.org/secondarypages/rightlydividing.html)

Part of the problem is that most dispensationalists worship the Bible more than they worship Jesus. There's even a word for it: bibliolatry. The Bible has stuff we don't understand. It has stuff that seems self-contradictory. It has stuff that makes us uncomfortable, like genocide. Some of us like to take that material head-on and try to sort it out. That's one of the reasons I switched from New Testament to Old Testament in grad school: there's a lot more challenge there. The anachronism "Dan" in Genesis 14. What does it tell us? Why, if Moses was the author, does it say Dan and not Laish?

Some people don't want to deal with these questions, so they just play ostrich and say "I have faith! It's perfect! We just don't understand it! I have faith!" These people are living examples of Mark Twain's definition of faith.

I trust the Bible with all its apparent flaws and issues. I trust it because I've dug into those hard questions, I've examined three and four cognate languages to try and sort out what some words mean, because there are lots of words in both Testaments that we simply don't know what they mean. Micah 6:8 - Do Justice, love mercy, and something-or-other walk with your God. We have no clue what that word means. "Humbly" is a best guess, because the word superficially resembles some possible weird form of the word "humble." But the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, the Septuagint (dazzle your friends with that $10 word) reads "be prepared to walk with your God." A far cry from our current English translations! This is what we're up against, and people who just close their eyes and scream "I have faith!" aren't helping.

The Evangelical Theological Society doctrinal statement says "The Bible alone, and the Bible in its entirety, is the word of God written and is therefore inerrant in the autographs." I can still sign that. The key phrase is "in the autographs." We don't have them. We don't even have something close to them in time. We can't even figure out when some of them were written. I spent a good 10 years learning and practicing textual criticism of both Testaments, trying to make my contribution toward sorting out what the autographs actually said.

Meanwhile, the Dispies (that's what we called them back in the day) sit in their ivory towers, oblivious to everyone else in Christendom, and say "I have faith!" I repeat: Mark Twain, tip your hat.

We took a mini-vacation over the weekend. But really, there's no much to say, because there's nothing of substance there to respond to. It's all empty speculation with no scriptural backing at all. You really can't see how you pervert the Bible by tossing your theology in there first and wresting the Scriptures to fit your theology. That's more than a little backward, in case you hadn't noticed.

And really, there's not much more we can talk about, and here's the reason:

"I never knew people believed some of the things they believe. I thought all Christians believed in different dispensations."

This is the most naïve statement I have ever seen from a seasoned Christian. Guess what? You are the minority. The vast majority of Christianity doesn't buy dispensationalism. That includes virtually all Protestant denominations, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox, and a host of others. You know NOTHING about the global Christian church. Hence, you are horribly unqualified to try and teach anybody anything about the Church. Go get some education about Christianity outside that little bubble of isolation that you live in, and find out what's going on in the Christian world. Then we can discuss this.

That one statement explains pretty much all of your narrow-mindedness. It's not so much narrow-mindedness as it is ignorance. Happily, the solution is easy: just learn about the rest of your Christian brethren and sistren.

I'm just seeing this little jewel. Really? Well you have one thing correct, I am naïve. I had the audacity to think we were friends. My mistake. I don't think anyone has ever personally attacked me this badly. I'm blown away. I didn't deserve it. I was asking questions because I really wanted to know and I was honest about what I know and don't know. You can think I'm ignorant, narrow-minded, backward, horribly unqualified and in need of education. Trust me it doesn't compare to what I think of you right now. I suggest you learn to let the Holy Spirit lead you and love through you. You may have knowledge but that's about it. Whatever you think I am, I am not mean and nasty nor do I lack the ability to love my fellow Christians who think differently than I do. I call you out if I think you are way out there, but I don't personally attack you like this. You are over the top, Dave. I mean waaaay over the top. Who do you think you are? You need a reality check cause you ain't. Smh disappointing to the hilt.

I'm sorry if you were hurt. But I was blown away by the fact that you had no idea there were other views out there. I can't tell you how distressing that is, because you've been robbed. You haven't had an adequate chance to really evaluate different views and choose for yourself. You've had dispensationalism and nothing else.

And truthfully, it doesn't surprise me because I know how dispensationalists work. They don't want you to hear any other views. They refuse to teach other views in their schools - I know this from experience - because supposedly it causes "confusion." How is knowledge a bad thing? But they are afraid of you having broader knowledge, because the fact is, over half the people I went to school with who were dispensationalists there, abandoned it in favor of other views once they got out of the dispensationalist bubble and learned just how flawed that system is.

That's what I wish for you: a good, fair, even knowledge of ALL the various ideas and choices, so you can decide for yourself which (if any) is the most "biblical." I apologize if that sounded like an attack; it wasn't. I am just amazed and saddened that these people have sold you such a bill of goods. I want better for you.


I'm just seeing this little jewel. Really? Well you have one thing correct, I am naïve. I had the audacity to think we were friends. My mistake. I don't think anyone has ever personally attacked me this badly. I'm blown away. I didn't deserve it. I was asking questions because I really wanted to know and I was honest about what I know and don't know. You can think I'm ignorant, narrow-minded, backward, horribly unqualified and in need of education. Trust me it doesn't compare to what I think of you right now. I suggest you learn to let the Holy Spirit lead you and love through you. You may have knowledge but that's about it. Whatever you think I am, I am not mean and nasty nor do I lack the ability to love my fellow Christians who think differently than I do. I call you out if I think you are way out there, but I don't personally attack you like this. You are over the top, Dave. I mean waaaay over the top. Who do you think you are? You need a reality check cause you ain't. Smh disappointing to the hilt.

Dave.

This is a quote from Carol in this thread... "I'd never heard of dispensationalism and the rapture until I saw them mentioned on this site years ago." I'm curious as to why you weren't blown away by her statement! Oh that's right, she agrees with you, never mind.

I have asked you questions like how you reconcile Romans with the Lord's parable of the sheep and goats and I can't get you to tell me. If you are so darn upset I haven't been exposed to different views, why not answer my questions? I will tell you why... you aren't sad I haven't been exposed to other points of views, you would rather use your gift of language to tear down and put down, rather than just give an explanation because you CAN'T reconcile them. It's OK to say you can't but it is easier to put me down. So you opted for easy.

That was NOT an apology, Dave. It was justification for being a rude and unkind. If that wasn't an attack, I'd hate to see one. What I would like to know is what you have that I don't? I mean it, if you are so concerned for me as you claim, explain in detail what you have that I don't. What has changing your view point about dispensation done for you that I am missing out on? What is it in lay man terms that you possess that I don't. How has changing your view point benefited you? Explain it slowly, you know how the ignorant are.

I have said it before and I will say it again. When people don't agree with you, you put them down. You make fun of them and then act completely justified. There is NOTHING of the Lord Jesus in that. I'm always amazed at the hate you spew and that's all it boils down to is utter hatred. There is nothing Christ like in that but you think if you have right on your side, it's OK in Dave's world. Sigh... You have a lot of knowledge, I give you that. But wisdom? None. Give me wisdom any day.

One last thought, "they" aren't the problem at all, YOU are. I read some of the stuff you put out there and I am so turned off I want to puke. If THAT is what being enlightened by your new view points have done for you, no thank YOU!

This is a quote from Carol in this thread... "I'd never heard of dispensationalism and the rapture until I saw them mentioned on this site years ago." I'm curious as to why you weren't blown away by her statement! Oh that's right, she agrees with you, never mind.
Dave knows I am a Missouri-Synod Lutheran pastor's daughter. The LCMS has never, ever believed in and talked about dispensationalism. That's why I had never heard about it and had no clue what it is. And I have never met and talked with anyone from Catholic churches and any Protestant denomination who mentioned it. It apparently is a teaching that is part of the beliefs of a small Protestant (???) group. I don't even know what group that would be.

I missed that one, apparently. But also, I've been a Lutheran and I know that most of them simply reject dispensationalism.

The main reason I haven't tried to answer your questions to date is because they tend to be departures from the topic at hand. I have mentioned that many times.

And now, I'm really not comfortable talking advanced theology because I'm going to feel like I'm bringing a billy club to a pillow fight. You asked what I have? I have a range of knowledge such that I can dialogue with just about any Christian tradition, in their own jargon and on their own level. I can do that because I'm intimately familiar with their views and theological distinctions.

I have never deliberately engaged in a "put down" with you. When I point out something erroneous, you seem to take it that way. I don't go after people unless I'm teasing. I go after viewpoints, because the goal is to determine what is the most consistently biblical. In this instance, I mentioned that you have a huge lack of knowledge, and now I understand why it's so difficult to dialogue with you and why we so often end up talking right past each other. I don't like that, I like being on even terms. All this time, I thought that even despite all my training etc. we were fairly close to even terms. Learning that we're not is most distressing.

I'd love to help you with this, but there's no way to do such a thing in a forum like this. You keep asking me about Romans vs. Matthew 25; there is no answer that will fit on AMHD or FB or any other such forum, because those things are bound up, defined and expanded by a vast array of other passages and factors. I haven't answered because it's impossible to do it in a few words. I've presented some things based on Kingdom theology and some other approaches, and I always wondered why you didn't respond to those.

Now I get it: much of the time I've been talking past you. I apologize for that, too. I wish I had known this a few years ago, because yes, it makes me feel like a bully. I don't like that feeling.

I can make you one promise: from here forward I will do my best to, as Walter Martin used to say, "Get the hay down out of the loft onto the barn floor where the cows can get at it." (No, I'm not calling you a cow.) In other words, I'll do my best to avoid Scholarese* and stick to English. I'll do my best to help you understand the other views. If you stay dispensational, cool. But at least you'll be doing it from a standpoint of thorough knowledge.

There is nothing shameful or "put down" about the word "ignorance." It means "lack of knowledge." Nothing more. It means someone doesn't know something. If they've never been taught it or exposed to it, then obviously they're not going to know it. Hence, they have ignorance on the subject. It's not a value judgment. It never has been, the word doesn't carry those connotations. It means "lacking knowledge." Part of my mission on Earth is to help people overcome that. Including you. I call you Sis because you're special to me. And I want to help you grow in knowledge. That's the bottom line.

*Scholarese, n. A dialect that consists entirely of multiverbal circumlocutions ane polysyllabic sentence units.



Dave.

This is a quote from Carol in this thread... "I'd never heard of dispensationalism and the rapture until I saw them mentioned on this site years ago." I'm curious as to why you weren't blown away by her statement! Oh that's right, she agrees with you, never mind.

I have asked you questions like how you reconcile Romans with the Lord's parable of the sheep and goats and I can't get you to tell me. If you are so darn upset I haven't been exposed to different views, why not answer my questions? I will tell you why... you aren't sad I haven't been exposed to other points of views, you would rather use your gift of language to tear down and put down, rather than just give an explanation because you CAN'T reconcile them. It's OK to say you can't but it is easier to put me down. So you opted for easy.

That was NOT an apology, Dave. It was justification for being a rude and unkind. If that wasn't an attack, I'd hate to see one. What I would like to know is what you have that I don't? I mean it, if you are so concerned for me as you claim, explain in detail what you have that I don't. What has changing your view point about dispensation done for you that I am missing out on? What is it in lay man terms that you possess that I don't. How has changing your view point benefited you? Explain it slowly, you know how the ignorant are.

I have said it before and I will say it again. When people don't agree with you, you put them down. You make fun of them and then act completely justified. There is NOTHING of the Lord Jesus in that. I'm always amazed at the hate you spew and that's all it boils down to is utter hatred. There is nothing Christ like in that but you think if you have right on your side, it's OK in Dave's world. Sigh... You have a lot of knowledge, I give you that. But wisdom? None. Give me wisdom any day.

One last thought, "they" aren't the problem at all, YOU are. I read some of the stuff you put out there and I am so turned off I want to puke. If THAT is what being enlightened by your new view points have done for you, no thank YOU!

This does make me curious, though; how on Earth did you miss the whole Left Behind lunacy? Or were you here before that happened?


Dave knows I am a Missouri-Synod Lutheran pastor's daughter. The LCMS has never, ever believed in and talked about dispensationalism. That's why I had never heard about it and had no clue what it is. And I have never met and talked with anyone from Catholic churches and any Protestant denomination who mentioned it. It apparently is a teaching that is part of the beliefs of a small Protestant (???) group. I don't even know what group that would be.

This does make me curious, though; how on Earth did you miss the whole Left Behind lunacy? Or were you here before that happened?
A friend challenged me to read it (and the rest of the series). I did -- read only the first book, but didn't understand some of it. I read it as fast as I could, choking it down. It's so badly written, total pulp fiction.

A friend challenged me to read it (and the rest of the series). I did -- read only the first book, but didn't understand some of it. I read it as fast as I could, choking it down. It's so badly written, total pulp fiction.
Wow, I'm sitting here praying for "pre trib" rapture. No more Hillary or Don.
Seeing how this thread has been used in a "did too - did not" scenario with someone apparently having all the right answers makes me wonder why they didn't run. Let's see, 1/144,000. Odds might not be too good! Hope the pilot on my next flight isn't raptured, at least not pre trib.

Wow, I'm sitting here praying for "pre trib" rapture. No more Hillary or Don.
Seeing how this thread has been used in a "did too - did not" scenario with someone apparently having all the right answers makes me wonder why they didn't run. Let's see, 1/144,000. Odds might not be too good! Hope the pilot on my next flight isn't raptured, at least not pre trib.
You won't be Left Behind?

I missed that one, apparently. But also, I've been a Lutheran and I know that most of them simply reject dispensationalism.

The main reason I haven't tried to answer your questions to date is because they tend to be departures from the topic at hand. I have mentioned that many times.

And now, I'm really not comfortable talking advanced theology because I'm going to feel like I'm bringing a billy club to a pillow fight. You asked what I have? I have a range of knowledge such that I can dialogue with just about any Christian tradition, in their own jargon and on their own level. I can do that because I'm intimately familiar with their views and theological distinctions.

I have never deliberately engaged in a "put down" with you. When I point out something erroneous, you seem to take it that way. I don't go after people unless I'm teasing. I go after viewpoints, because the goal is to determine what is the most consistently biblical. In this instance, I mentioned that you have a huge lack of knowledge, and now I understand why it's so difficult to dialogue with you and why we so often end up talking right past each other. I don't like that, I like being on even terms. All this time, I thought that even despite all my training etc. we were fairly close to even terms. Learning that we're not is most distressing.

I'd love to help you with this, but there's no way to do such a thing in a forum like this. You keep asking me about Romans vs. Matthew 25; there is no answer that will fit on AMHD or FB or any other such forum, because those things are bound up, defined and expanded by a vast array of other passages and factors. I haven't answered because it's impossible to do it in a few words. I've presented some things based on Kingdom theology and some other approaches, and I always wondered why you didn't respond to those.

Now I get it: much of the time I've been talking past you. I apologize for that, too. I wish I had known this a few years ago, because yes, it makes me feel like a bully. I don't like that feeling.

I can make you one promise: from here forward I will do my best to, as Walter Martin used to say, "Get the hay down out of the loft onto the barn floor where the cows can get at it." (No, I'm not calling you a cow.) In other words, I'll do my best to avoid Scholarese* and stick to English. I'll do my best to help you understand the other views. If you stay dispensational, cool. But at least you'll be doing it from a standpoint of thorough knowledge.

There is nothing shameful or "put down" about the word "ignorance." It means "lack of knowledge." Nothing more. It means someone doesn't know something. If they've never been taught it or exposed to it, then obviously they're not going to know it. Hence, they have ignorance on the subject. It's not a value judgment. It never has been, the word doesn't carry those connotations. It means "lacking knowledge." Part of my mission on Earth is to help people overcome that. Including you. I call you Sis because you're special to me. And I want to help you grow in knowledge. That's the bottom line.

*Scholarese, n. A dialect that consists entirely of multiverbal circumlocutions ane polysyllabic sentence units.



You are a condescending JackA$$ ! Your excuses for not answering my question are becoming downright embarrassing. You can't answer it, Dave. It's NOT too much for this site, it's too much for YOU. Period.

Hey if it makes you feel superior to think you talk passed me... GO FOR IT DUDE! That comment made me laugh and laugh. You WISH!

You are a condescending JackA$$ ! Your excuses for not answering my question are becoming downright embarrassing. You can't answer it, Dave. It's NOT too much for this site, it's too much for YOU. Period.

Hey if it makes you feel superior to think you talk passed me... GO FOR IT DUDE! That comment made me laugh and laugh. You WISH!

As WG already said, if you want to start a new thread with that question, I'll see what I can do.

Incidentally, another thing I learned by dumping dispensationalism is, this stuff is just not that important I read the end of the book. We win. Nothing in eschatology carries enough significance to divide Christians, yet we do it all the time. I watched a friend of mine get railroaded out of his degree because he said that pre-tribs were way behind in their research and had a lot of catching up to do. That's ALL he said, and they denied him his degree because he "went post-trib" (direct quote from the dean of students). I myself lost one of my favorite teaching jobs because I couldn't say with absolute certainty that I was pre-trib. It goes on and on. The thing is, dispensationalists are the only ones who do this. They accuse everyone else of being divisive, but they are the ones who kick people out for not holding to every little point.

They also won't let their students learn other systems. When I tried to look at a couple when in college, I was "strongly encouraged" not to, because it would cause "confusion." Translation: their material is so tenuously constructed, as quickly as people get a solid handle on something else, they take it. So the dispensational answer is to keep their people in the dark, give them ONLY what "we" want them to have, and subtly suggest that anything else is of the devil (another direct quote).

This is not stuff of my construction. I just reports 'em. 40 years ago I was you. I had it all sorted out. Thank God he smacked me across the forehead and let me know just how much I didn't know. I've had the time of my life learning new things about the Lord every day since. One of the main things I've learned: I hate theology. Let the Word speak for itself. We westerners love to pigeon-hole everything, including God. That's why I don't embrace any one theological "system." I can find various merits in all of them. But I had to know what they were and how they worked before I could do that. It's still going on and I don't have a fraction of the answers. But I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that He is able to keep what I have entrusted to him, even to the end of the world (my own translation). That's the beginning and end for me.

As WG already said, if you want to start a new thread with that question, I'll see what I can do.

Incidentally, another thing I learned by dumping dispensationalism is, this stuff is just not that important I read the end of the book. We win. Nothing in eschatology carries enough significance to divide Christians, yet we do it all the time. I watched a friend of mine get railroaded out of his degree because he said that pre-tribs were way behind in their research and had a lot of catching up to do. That's ALL he said, and they denied him his degree because he "went post-trib" (direct quote from the dean of students). I myself lost one of my favorite teaching jobs because I couldn't say with absolute certainty that I was pre-trib. It goes on and on. The thing is, dispensationalists are the only ones who do this. They accuse everyone else of being divisive, but they are the ones who kick people out for not holding to every little point.

They also won't let their students learn other systems. When I tried to look at a couple when in college, I was "strongly encouraged" not to, because it would cause "confusion." Translation: their material is so tenuously constructed, as quickly as people get a solid handle on something else, they take it. So the dispensational answer is to keep their people in the dark, give them ONLY what "we" want them to have, and subtly suggest that anything else is of the devil (another direct quote).

This is not stuff of my construction. I just reports 'em. 40 years ago I was you. I had it all sorted out. Thank God he smacked me across the forehead and let me know just how much I didn't know. I've had the time of my life learning new things about the Lord every day since. One of the main things I've learned: I hate theology. Let the Word speak for itself. We westerners love to pigeon-hole everything, including God. That's why I don't embrace any one theological "system." I can find various merits in all of them. But I had to know what they were and how they worked before I could do that. It's still going on and I don't have a fraction of the answers. But I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that He is able to keep what I have entrusted to him, even to the end of the world (my own translation). That's the beginning and end for me.

Amen, well phrased. Too many people "pigeon hole", to use your term, I'm Catholic, Anglican, Methodist etc. instead of Christian. You accept Christ as saving us, do the best you can, the world will end and hopefully we will be there with Him. Of course, this is a Christian view. An all loving God will show mercy to non Christians, I would like to believe , if I get to Heaven, to be sharing a meal with a Buddhist, Navaho Indian, Muslim, Druid, prehistoric man- Wow, heaven better be big! One thing we also need to remember is that few people ever left the village where they were raised. There were no Christians then, there were Jews and Gentiles. To think that people existed in other continents was obscure except for Egypt and Asia Minor. Yes, Peter and Paul made it to Rome, but the whole world to most people was probably 50 miles by 50 miles.

Incidentally, rather than having to resort to the dollar signs, you might try playing with the word a little to make it come out "jay sack." It's more euphemistic, but it gets the point across in an ear-catching way.

That's compliments of my dad, who had an incredible way with words. Feel free to use it.


You are a condescending JackA$$ ! Your excuses for not answering my question are becoming downright embarrassing. You can't answer it, Dave. It's NOT too much for this site, it's too much for YOU. Period.

Hey if it makes you feel superior to think you talk passed me... GO FOR IT DUDE! That comment made me laugh and laugh. You WISH!