I myself just want to ask if WHY? It is actually about GENDER.

I am not sure that we are capable of understanding that if we haven't been through what they are feeling. I don't understand why Bruce Jenner did what he did but I know he's been quite clear it's been a life long struggle.

DNA, hormones ? Mental conditioning, A combination of many things.

Some in-depth studies have shown that many people (younger ones are more likely to have thought it out) are on something of a sliding scale of gender. It's not just about sexual preference. For thousands of years we identified gender by sex organs. Yet we now know that many males have more female hormones than their fellow males, and same with females. Hermaphrodites are more common than we think too, because doctors tend to pick one to tell the parents, thinking it's for the best. That's the wrong word most of the time, and here is a starting article on the matter scientifically:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/45,X/46,XY_mosaicism

Your question is certainly my question too. Anyways! Some say that it is in DNA i.e. a person is born with the gender. Sometimes it is the surrounding that influence the thoughts and also experience and struggle in relationship can also contribute in this. As said by Bruce Jenner, he/she feels that this has been in his/her mind forever and now he/she had the strength to come out as who he/she is.

Gender is a strange thing. At birth, MOST babies are classified as either Male or Female based on a visual inspection of their genitalia. For most people that is enough. They identify as that gender for their entire lives. Some people do not identify with the gender assigned to them at birth. Some will align their body to the gender that they believe they are. It is allowing them to express themselves as they see themselves to be rather then what they've been told that they are. This is where the mystery of the brain and our own consciousness comes into play. Who can say that gender isn't on a scale like sexual orientation.

Now the cynical part of me also knows that there are plenty of people, look at tumblr for example, who are using gender roles as a way to make themselves feel special or different. A lot of people just want to be different and will do what they can to show that they're unique just like everyone else. It has to be taken seriously, but you also have to be sure.

My feelings on this subject is, you are what you is. By what is between your legs. Just because you want to change the game at the expense of others is wrong. Men in the Women's Locker Room and vice versa does more to make people very uncomfortable. So deal with what you have. PC has a way of being a PITA.

By what is between your legs.
That's the problem. When the delivering doctor says, "It's a boy!" or "It's a girl!" he's looking at only a very small part of a human's sexuality. What's going on inside that human in regard to sexual orientation may be just the opposite that involved hormones during prenatal development. What you see in the flesh is not necessarily what really is. (I won't go into what all goes on during pregnancy with establishing sexual orientation. There are several good medical websites about that.)

That's the problem. When the delivering doctor says, "It's a boy!" or "It's a girl!" he's looking at only a very small part of a human's sexuality. What's going on inside that human in regards to sexual orientation may be just the opposite that involved hormones during prenatal development. What you see in the flesh is not necessarily what really is. (I won't go into what all goes on during pregnancy with establishing sexual orientation. There are several good medical websites about that.)

For thousands of years that has been the indicator and it was good enough. Suddenly we get all these off the wall exceptions to the norm.

For thousands of years that has been the indicator and it was good enough. Suddenly we get all these off the wall exceptions to the norm.
And there were probably some very unhappy (or confused) humans who had to live inauthentic lives.

catonsville, bet you didn't open my wikipedia link. It's a bit abstruse, but bottom line, babies ARE born with 2 sets of gonads, and doctors DO like to operate at infancy to make a baby one or the other.
There are people who have sued once they reached 18, feeling cheated out of the sex they 'feel' they really are, and that is usually based on hormone levels, not gonads.


Aside from gonads showing, there are some fascinating documentaries now on young children expressing interest in being the opposite sex, and now that many parents are more accommodating, we hear more about them.

And even if there aren't two sets of gonads, what shows on the outside doesn't always match what's going on hormonally in the inside.

I'm gender queer, I often think I would rather be a woman then a man, but fear causes me to not commit to that. For me, wanting to be a woman is largely sexual... the desire often times goes beyond sex, it's more then just a kink, but it is still strongly rooted in lust. Looking back now, when I was a little boy I liked playing with barbies and watching girls TV shows, so maybe it isn't as much about sex and lust as I initially thought, but I never considered being a girl like how I do now until I discovered how uncontent I was fulfilling the male sexual role. So to sum it up its like a want to be better. To be prettier. Just like how a boy might want to go to the gym to work out and improve his physical appearance, a trans person wants to be the like the gender they most identify with. Does that make sense? I feel like I rambled a bit.

3p0L0v3sU (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/members/3p0l0v3su.html), your story is pretty typical.
I think whether or not you act on your feelings has a lot to do with what culture/country/social group you live in.

I'm going to upset a lot of people and thought long and hard before even posting this. But I feel empathy is earned and shouldn't be handed out freely. It devalues it just like anything that's handed out too often.

I have empathy for people with Cancer, or degenerative diseases...particularly young children with them, and while I may not agree with some things... I won't ostracize those that do... unless they feel a need to get up in peoples faces about it, but I won't have empathy either. Empathy and tolerance don't have to go hand in hand.

There is no right to empathy... or acceptance. There is against persecution and lynching.

When Bruce Jenner first pulled this.. my first thought was.. if it floats his boat, who cares... then he went all Kardashian (which I think the entire bunch are idiots and attention wh ores)... and needs to get in everyone's face, and that's what I can't abide.

We don't have any need for 5 bathrooms... Men, women, men who feel like women, women who feel like men, and the poor individuals that were born actual hermaphrodites.

The restroom you use should be determined by what bits you have between your legs. Because small children use them and don't always have adults supervision.

I have no issues with what people choose to do at home... or behind closed doors... and no... I don't give a pass to a lot of activities some traditional people do in front of others either. If its not appropriate in front of a child or group of children... then get a hotel room.

Fewer people will be offending other people if everyone understood the world didn't revolve around each of them. It doesn't revolve around anyone... it revolves around the sun. It actually used to be that way or at least a lot closer to it.

I'm guessing you've never experienced gender identity confusion, smoothy. :-)

I'm guessing you've never experienced gender identity confusion, smoothy. :-)

No... but I wouldn't want some 50 year old man adjusting his "junk" under his dress in the women's room with pre-teen girls present. If you get my drift.

No... but I wouldn't want some 50 year old man adjusting his "junk" under his dress in the women's room with pre-teen girls present. If you get my drift.
He'd be in a stall adjusting himself and wouldn't be in public space. No one would see him (her?).

He'd be in a stall adjusting himself and wouldn't be in public space. No one would see him (her?).
You are married and have a son... you know what guys do in the real world.

Then there is another group....pervs that don't have a fear of cross dressing to get into the womens room to do what they do. Which right now they would stand out if they tried. As weird as something might sound....someone out there gets their jollies on it.

Now on the other hand....if there was a group of people that decided it would be fun to beat up on someone in one of these groups....I'd be one of the first people standing up against them doing it. Tolerance can exist in the absence of acceptance or empathy. Its not an all or nothing situation.

Yes, in a perfect world you would be right but the world is anything but perfect Wondergirl. Once you open the door they get that inch and then they go for the mile and in your face until they get it.

A perv wouldn't have a chance in a women's washroom. And I have TWO sons, two brothers, and have worked with many males of all ages during my lifetime. And have been in a lot of women's washrooms.

A perv wouldn't have a chance in a women's washroom. And I have TWO sons, two brothers, and have worked with many males of all ages during my lifetime. And have been in a lot of women's washrooms.Right now if you had a guy in a dress in the Womens room... they stand out.. well most of them would anyway, you call the cops and let them cuff and haul them off. But if it became legal for them to do it... how would you prevent it? How would you know who was OK and who wasn't.

Now toss in having underage kids into the mix... I see a LOT of things that can go very wrong, very fast.

As far as them in the women's department shopping for clothes in full drag? Who cares....not me. Getting on TV..making a big deal of it.....now then I have an issue

You need to spend more time in a women's washroom. Plus, it would be labeled as to who may use it. Those who don't want to be faced with lustful straight men wearing dresses don't have to use it.

Yep, a "Voyeur's Delight"

Yep, a "Voyeur's Delight"
He ain't gonna see much. He could see as much sitting on a bench in a mall.

You need to spend more time in a women's washroom. Plus, it would be labeled as to who may use it. Those who don't want to be faced with lustful straight men wearing dresses don't have to use it.

You are missing the point I'm getting at.

A certain group is demanding they get to use the OTHER genders restrooms. Don't forget there are straight cross dressing men out there... that really don't have gender issues, then there are those that do...

As you pointed out. Right now its labeled and they can't... as it should be... BUT... if they get their way,, anyone can use any restroom in effect... And very few businesses have the space, and the money to build and maintain 5 separate restrooms several of which would see very little use... and there are very few women that would want a man in the women's restroom or tolerate it... period.

Remember that very important bit about guys being visual... while very few women would get a thrill out of it... there are far more men that would.

Thinking in absolutes will get you in trouble... in a perfect world everything is Black or White... in the real world there is a whole lot of shades of grey in between. Lines have to be drawn someplace. Drawing them to suit a minority against the majority...IS going to cause problems.

I'd have no problem with unisex washrooms and most of my women friends feel the same way. The cubicles give any user privacy.

At my library job in the early '80s, our college-professor crossdresser used the library's women's washroom with no problem.

He ain't gonna see much. He could see as much sitting on a bench in a mall.

Right, maybe you have forgotten how far we have come in electronics, cameras etc. Where there is a will, someone will find the way.

I'd have no problem with unisex washrooms and most of my women friends feel the same way. The cubicles give any user privacy.

At my library job in the early '80s, our college-professor crossdresser used the library's women's washroom with no problem.

You are a minority in that thinking... most restrooms that can handle multiple people at once aren't built in a manner that would lend them towards being unisex. Though any small one person at a time restroom can easily qualify as Unisex.

The newer cubicles go all the way to the floor. I'm guessing crossdressers and those with gender issues want to relieve themselves, not take photos.

Where there's a will, someone can shoot up that business or library.

The newer cubicles go all the way to the floor. I'm guessing crossdressers and those with gender issues want to relieve themselves, not take photos.

Where there's a will, someone can shoot up that business or library.

They might have those in your neck of the woods... but I've never seen even ONE of those around mine... anywhere. The ceiling to floor ones do exist in Europe...you also need a poor sense of smell or a really strong stomach using them too if they are even moderately busy. Neither of which I have. The the rough in distance...toilet to toilet is also greater than those here to accommodate it.

That type adds another risk of illicit activity the normal modesty partitions would easily reveal. Also significantly more difficult to clean and keep clean.

IF they need to relieve themselves... you have sausages and you have tacos... each has its own rest room... the exception being the sausage tacos... which aren't really common.

What do they do now? Hold it for a week? I doubt it. And they aren't all running out to the alley behind the dumpster.

If it's a free for all... who is to say or argue against... a Man, dressed as a man going into a women's restroom using the I feel more like a woman argument as an excuse against peeping Tom charges? Those shades of grey thing again.

And a guy is more likely to do that than a woman would in a Mens room. Plus I know very few women that would be OK with it. You might be the only one at this point. I can guarantee you my wife and my mother would vigorously oppose it as just two. And just about every other one I know well enough to have an idea how they think.

Like I said... I know how guys think... so I can see a lot of situations where it could go horribly wrong.

I'd worry about weirdo with a gun before I'd worry about a sexual pervert. Heaven help him if he's the latter.

Everybody worries about those... there are more of them around. More in some places than others.

No... but I wouldn't want some 50 year old man adjusting his "junk" under his dress in the women's room with pre-teen girls present. If you get my drift.

You've never seen a man in a kilt whose a little itchy with all the wool about Wee Johnny have you?

You are a minority in that thinking... most restrooms that can handle multiple people at once aren't built in a manner that would lend them towards being unisex. Though any small one person at a time restroom can easily qualify as Unisex.

As as small of a minority as you think. Having unisex wash rooms is getting more popular in society. Especially accommodating people who are in the gender minority, i.e. trans, gender neutral/flexible, etc. How many of us have used the opposite sexy's bathroom when our own was taken? Especially if it is a single person room?

The problem is, Smoothy, that you're missing the big picture and focusing on the minutia. In most, 99%+ of the case it isn't going to matter, it isn't going to matter and pervs are going to perv regardless of the situation.

To deal with the hijack: Down with Urinals! Everybody sit down! Most codes say you have to have so many holes(make that drains) per so many people in the establishment.

That does nothing for gyms and locker rooms, particularly in schools, where gender confusion and determination is at it's most intense. In part the current tendency to validate whatever weirdness an immature mind can dream up is making the process of that mind maturing much more difficult. Deciding who you are is part of growing up.

Jenner is actually to be credited for taking time to make the decision, although 69 years old with how many kids might be leaving it a bit late.

It's quite apparent that none of you actually KNOW someone who has gender identity issues.

I'm related to someone who actually suffers from it. Yes, she describes it as suffering.

You see, my niece was born a girl 21 years ago. She has never been interested in chick flicks, Barbie dolls, makeup, etc. She identifies with Marvel comics, tuxedos (she wore one to her high school prom), fade hair cuts instead of long hair in pony tails.

It's NOT about what bathroom one uses, but how comfortable or uncomfortable one feels in their own skin. She knows she was born a female, but feels more comfortable dressing as a man because that's where her interests lie. Instead of doing her nails, she prefers to rebuild a transmission. At 2 years old my niece would rather play with a tonga truck than a baby doll. This isn't something learned, but genetic.

She knows she's a female, (back on the bathroom issue), and uses the women's bathroom because she knows that is what's right, BUT she gets dirty looks when she enters because she LOOKS like a man.

It isn't only about what's "between your legs" but what makes you feel comfortable in your own skin.

I read these posts and can fully understand the increasing suicide rates.

I'm raising my kids with the same view as mine: what difference does it make to me what someone identifies with? It doesn't affect us in any way. Not buying the silly "slippery slope of washrooms" argument, it seems puerile to me.

I have no desire to take pictures of naked ladyies. Why does having a penis and dressing in girls cloths make you suspect to that kind of behavior?

I have no desire to take pictures of naked ladyies. Why does having a penis and dressing in girls cloths make you suspect to that kind of behavior?

Thankfully most people are able to accept it. There are those that can't, as you've seen on this thread, but most people understand what gender identity conflict is, and they accept those people for who they are. The world is changing for the better for everyone, but it takes time. Some of the old dogs really can't learn new tricks. They simply don't get it, and many of them never will.

It's quite apparent that none of you actually KNOW someone who has gender identity issues.

.......
It isn't only about what's "between your legs" but what makes you feel comfortable in your own skin.

I read these posts and can fully understand the increasing suicide rates.

True. A wee bit harsh, but true none the less.

It is up to us as a society to make EVERYONE feel comfortable and comfortable being who they are. Not surprisingly we're doing a piss poor job of it. It is something new, and makes us less comfortable because it is not the normal. There is more of an open dialogue now then has been in so many years, but it is still something that can be hard to accept because it is different.

I have no desire to take pictures of naked ladies. Why does having a penis and dressing in girls cloths make you suspect to that kind of behavior?

Just because you might not... there are plenty of other men that do... and would use that as a means to do what they do... that's the point that's being ignored. Who can possibly guarantee every man in a dress in the women's bathroom actually has gender Identity issues... and isn't a perv that sees wearing a dress as a way to get to what they are after.

Right now... any guy in there... dressed as a woman or not will have authorities to answer to. What a certain group is advocating and arguing for.. it to let ANYONE that wants to in... never mind 8 - 10 year old girls might be in there... and nobody could say otherwise... who's going to accept responsibility for not only the first time that happens.. but every time after that.

That is exactly like Pandora's box.

And don't the parents of every child that might need to use that rest room have the right to know their children will be reasonably safe or will they have to accompany them until they turn 18.


Because not only people like you will be there... the pervs that think nothing of slapping on a dress to get those cameras in to pear under the stalls etc... will have a free pass to do it.

You could not differentiate one from the other... and not all men with Gender identity issues would be saints either... no doubt many would, but you are going to have those that aren't.

Personally... if it floats your boat... I don't care if you dress like a girl... if its gender identity issues or you don't and it's a fetish...

But men need to be in mens rooms, and women in women's rooms. You either have guy parts or girl parts. That's the determining factor for restroom use. How did everyone manage until now... nobody can say they didn't go the bathroom. I know precious few parents that would stand for free for all rest rooms.

A Chinese person can't claim to be a black person just because they feel like they identify with them more. Nobody cares if they dress and talk like someone in the hood. But when it comes down to government forms and applications when it asks... you are what you are... not what you feel like.

And sorry... but nobody has the right to demand everyone else bends over backwards to see things THEIR way.. if they aren't going to bend over backwards to do what someone else says.

Be it political, religious, or pretty much everything else.

I'm not going to accept Kwanzaa is a real holiday and I'm not going to celebrate it just because someone says I have to for example. And incidentally, the more someone demands you think a certain way... the less accepting those people forced to are willing to be.

Funny thing... the people that try to threaten and intimidate others to do things THEIR way... are usually the same people that get the most upset when anyone does it to them. Because this is exactly what Bullies do... and I know there are people doing this now that have also been on the issue about people doing far less to "Bully" their kids.

I still like them on a personal level... but nobody has the right to impose their beliefs onto others... and thinking they can shame them only prove the point... that's what bullies do. Maybe if they sit back and give some thought to someone trying to impose their beliefs on them... such as the Islamic tradition in much of the world.. to force their 10 year old daughters to marry 50 year old men... after all... there are large segments that find that acceptable... why would that be wrong while their own ideas not be. Or arranged marriages in general where no choice is allowed.

What if people demanded the right to wear thongs in public? What about women going bare breasted everywhere ( I can hear a lot of guys being fine with this) just because guys do... just examples that came to mind...

I'm not naming names or pointing fingers because I have no personal issues with anyone on this thread... and I do mean everyone, the old timers as well as the new people... only pointing out something to ponder.

You live in a very scary world, smoothy.

You live in a very scary world, smoothy.I live in a world were MOST people are even more conservative about things than I am... and my world isn't a minority subset of any other.

And not even my uber Liberal neighbors think differently on this...in fact..they are less accepting than I am, yes we actually had a discussion a couple months ago over a couple bottles of wine that went there....and I am far from being intolerant.

I'm the last person anyone bullies into anything....the more someone tries to force me to do anything...the harder I push back. I didn't suffer being bullied in high school and I don't suffer it as an adult.

The last bully that tried to see how far I would go..was in high school....and he spent time in intensive care....despite being far larger and stronger than me....because I didn't hold anything back. Scary place to find yourself because I didn't stop....I was pulled off of him by three adult male neighbors.....luckily nobody has ever tried that again, and I hope nobody ever does.

Everyone has a sore spot...a raw nerve....that's mine.

Edit: I want to point something out the Ladies here might not be aware of....pertaining to WHY there are some guys that DON'T have gender issues might wear a dress to get into a womens bathroom of all places.

There is actually an entire category of porn that deals with filming women using the toilet without their knowledge. And you hear about people being arrested for it on the news from time to time. Nobody is claiming people with gender issues do it or are doing it or ever did it...but it opens a barrier to those that do.

They could sit a purse or anything down near the bottom of the barrier and you would never see the pinhole camera inside recording

Did, you see where South Dakota Governor vetoed bill on the gender bill that would have protected the privacy of students in gym, bath rooms etc. Hope they over ride it.
ACLU is all in for the veto, no surprise, they lack a moral compass.

Smoothly, stop with the bathroom argument already. That is NOT what gender identity crisis is about. You continue to focus on the 1% of people who are using this as an excuse to satisfy their perversions. That's NOT what gender identity crisis is about.

Unless, or until, you've sat down and cried with a family member because they are being bullied because they were born with a vagina, but would rather rebuild a transmission than go shopping with the girls, you truly cannot relate on a personal level to this issue.

Gender identity crisis is is has NOTHING to do with sexual perversions, or even homosexuality.

Smoothly, stop with the bathroom argument already. That is NOT what gender identity crisis is about. You continue to focus on the 1% of people who are using this as an excuse to satisfy their perversions. That's NOT what gender identity crisis is about.

Unless, or until, you've sat down and cried with a family member because they are being bullied because they were born with a vagina, but would rather rebuild a transmission than go shopping with the girls, you truly cannot relate on a personal level to this issue.

Gender identity crisis is is has NOTHING to do with sexual perversions, or even homosexuality.

THere is a greater percentage willing to go that route WITHOUT having gender identity issues than there are people that feel the need to force everyone else to bend over backwards to cater to their demands... no matter how much it goes against their moral codes to do it.

And apparently nobody that is trying to ram this down everyone's throats has even listened to a word I said.. or have but are willing to subject their own children grandchildren and neighbors children to these people... because its going to happen. And its going to be on their their backs when it happens.

Most cross dressing men are straight... and have no interest in gender reassignment surgery. Studies have shown that... and that topic has been discussed a number of time in another forum...

Exactly how would you plan to differentiate between them? Fact is you can't. SO how would you know if that guy in women's garb... is a cross dresser, has legitimate gender identity issues, or is simply a perv willing to go that extra distance?

It's a serious question because while one might pose no risk... one other might or might not... while the other certainly does.

You like the others are avoiding answering that specific point...

ANd tell you what... I like a lot of people start giving someone or a specific group a benefit of the doubt... until we have reason otherwise... this sort of stuff is proving its yet another group that thinks they have special rights that excede the rights of the general public.

Namely women are being told... tough.. you no longer have any right to privacy in restrooms anywhere ( and soon after locker rooms etc) because people that are currently NOT female in gender have a greater right to violate their privacy.

Once they have gone that last step and had the reasignment surgery... ok, fine... no issues. THe issue is while they are not.

THis has ZERO to do with sympathy for them... or accepting them... but one persons rights END where the next persons starts.

Nobody is advocating lynching them... or bullying them. All the bullying taking place here is by those trying to force everyone else into accepting people that are physically still men into female restrooms. And the insistence by certain parties that EVERYONE that doesn't feel exactly how they do.. is wrong and should be belittled for it...

You know I like and respect you... however MY moral code is not somehow inferior to anyone else's here. And I do take offense myself that it is even being suggested by anyone.

How about we belittle anyone that believes the age of consent should be 18. Its significantly lower in much of Europe... so people that think that's wrong should be heckled and belittled. Plenty of other examples could be given. Kids can drink in Europe UNDER the age of 18... maybe its grossly unfair they are legally adults.. could be drafted, are allowed to join the Army go off to fight, get crippled or die... but can't buy a beer. Maybe we should heckle those who believe the 21 year old drink age is the right thing?

That's another example... but I do not support, have sympathy or accept anyone that's going to be DEMANDING I have no right to my own thoughts, beliefs and free will. Because they don't have greater rights than the rest of the public.

Now again... I don't care if they cross dress or even go through their life as the opposite gender... at this point... I'm not advocating or supporting groups or individuals the might single them out for abuse or violent actions...

And I can speak for my wife on this, because she just commented on it asking what I was writing... who doesn't want anyone in the women's room who is not physically female with female body parts while she is. And so does every female OUTSIDE this forum and discussion I have any knowledge of.

And again... read what I wrote... allowing ANYONE willing to throw on women's clothes into women's restrooms and locker rooms is going to cause a LOT of problems... and its not IF but when... because its impossible to differentiate one subset from the next. And what about the rights of every OTHER women and girl out there?

I'm not picking on that group... and neither is anyone else here... but NO group is somehow better and has any right to IMPOSE their will upon others by any means. And that's exactly what yet another group is trying to do.

Who is going to pay for these separate restrooms? Someone ELSE? Who will reimburse the businesses for the upkeep and loss of revenue generating space? Commercial real-estate in much of the country is very expensive, is someone else expected to foot that cost... how many people should lose their jobs to offset the expense for something that's going to have only occasional use.

Its easy to make demands... but the people making they aren't willing to bear the costs of it. And people are getting irritated by this special interest group, or that one... or another... that gets special treatment they are expected to pay ever more for.

I'm ticket off that this year I will be paying $2,500 MORE in property taxes just to fund the education of illegals in my county that aren't paying ANY of them... because 28% of the kids enrolled on our district are illegals.

The more someone demands I do something or think a certain way and insults my intelligence and even insinuates I am ignorant or less than human because I don't bend over to yet another group... well I will see that group ever more in a less favorable light as a result.

Again... this is nothing personal... against you or anyone else participating in this thread... but nobody that isn't paying my bills or supporting me... is going to tell me how to think. I still have freedom of speech... and as yet... the thought police don't exist... and the day they do... is the day I pack my bags, sell my property and transfer all my money to another country where it doesn't and move there. I was born in the USA... not the Old East Germany. I value my right to my own opinion... and my right to free speech.

Something I'm pretty sure the rest do as well.

I'm not the one bullying them... it's the converse that is actually the case here. And I don't suffer being bullied. There is no website... or person alive worth allowing it.

I know bullies... I know what its like to be bullied... And I know it when I see it. I also know in today's PC run amok environment... pity the poor kid that ever stands up to one.. because they will get in the same trouble as the bully does. Today I would have been expelled from school for standing up to bullies... and not graduated and continued through college. And yeah... it did stop long before the end of my senior year, and not only that... I got respect from them... It might have been the hard way... but I got it, and we aren't talking One, two or three....I'm talking 11 different ones....and I earned it from every one of them but one....and he's dead now anyway....idiot attempted armed robbery the summer I graduated and was shot to death by his intended victim. In my entire life... I have not bullied anyone. I actually feel a kinship with those who were bullied...

And what was being talked about in this discussion really has nothing to do with it.

Cantonsville, smoothy ,I think we're never going to agree. Let me just say this. When your trans you can be raped, murdered, or discriminated against if people find out. Some girls (and guys, I'm just saying girls because of my own experience. I don't know a lot about the trans man community) spend their whole lives trying to hide what they were born with, not because they are diluted, but because they can't be safe otherwise. You said you had no problem with people crossdressing correct? No problem with men wanting too look or act like women? Well, If a crossdresser is in public and can't use the ladies room, they may have to go into the mens room while still in drag. Then everyone there would know that they aren't normal, even if they look completely like a woman other wise, and they could die because of that. So, as stated earlier, we don't live in a perfect world where there are no rapists, or perverts, or murderers. If you deny a trans person the opportunity to use the other genders bathroom, then they will either A: not be able to be dressed in public, (which is kind of why a lot of trans people commit suicide. Because they have to hide their real self.) or B: risk being raped. Lets stop talking about the validity of being gender queer now. That is not what this thread is about. Its about "why might someone feel they are not the gender they were born with?" you two haven't answered that question, all you have done is refuted the validity of that feeling. Although I'm mad at both of you, I know you are just people and still deserve my respect and the right to speech, just please shut up. Go start another thread about the validity of gender identity if you must. I will even take note to stay far away from it, so you all do not feel I am trying to silence or harass you, because lets face it, we will never agree.

When you are ready to talk about the question at hand, I'll be back.

The OP never asked why it's okay for a man to use a woman's bathroom or visa versa. The OP asked why some people aren't content with the gender they were born with.

Again, when you are ready to discuss the actual question posted, I'll be back. Until then I'm not going to feed your hatred.

Over the past few years, decades even, we have seen people coming out of the closet and being very open about their own sexual identity, and being more accepted by the society as a whole. Why is it so hard to wrap our heads around the fact that there are people out there who want to rectify their gender identity as well? Minority groups have a history of being misunderstood, discriminated against, bullied, enslaved and killed since the dawn of man, and sadly gender identity will be no different.

Wonder what's next?

Cantonsville, smoothy ,I think we're never going to agree. Let me just say this. When your trans you can be raped, murdered, or discriminated against if people find out. Some girls (and guys, I'm just saying girls because of my own experience. I don't know a lot about the trans man community) spend their whole lives trying to hide what they were born with, not because they are diluted, but because they can't be safe otherwise. You said you had no problem with people crossdressing correct? No problem with men wanting too look or act like women? Well, If a crossdresser is in public and can't use the ladies room, they may have to go into the mens room while still in drag. Then everyone there would know that they aren't normal, even if they look completely like a woman other wise, and they could die because of that. So, as stated earlier, we don't live in a perfect world where there are no rapists, or perverts, or murderers. If you deny a trans person the opportunity to use the other genders bathroom, then they will either A: not be able to be dressed in public, (which is kind of why a lot of trans people commit suicide. Because they have to hide their real self.) or B: risk being raped. Lets stop talking about the validity of being gender queer now. That is not what this thread is about. Its about "why might someone feel they are not the gender they were born with?" you two haven't answered that question, all you have done is refuted the validity of that feeling. Although I'm mad at both of you, I know you are just people and still deserve my respect and the right to speech, just please shut up. Go start another thread about the validity of gender identity if you must. I will even take note to stay far away from it, so you all do not feel I am trying to silence or harass you, because lets face it, we will never agree.


Please don't take what I said as me having any dislike for you or anything. Lets just say I've already had my fill of other groups making their demands and I wasn't happy with those either. And see here.. this is the key point... Most of those groups assumes their rights are greater than others. I have not told you to shut up and I'm not going to... and I won't be told to shut up either.

INSISTING there is only one right way to see this... YOUR way and saying everyone else is wrong... well Isn't going to make anyone any more receptive to your plight. In fact... it is counter productive. They end up less receptive and less sympathetic. That's something to consider, Its not what you are selling... its how you are selling it.

"INSISTING there is only one right way to see this... YOUR way and saying everyone else is wrong." you do make a good point, in the beginning I was doing that, trying to persuade you, but now all I'm saying is we both are being very stubborn and will never reach an agreement so lets stop talking about it, because the valitdy of being genderqueer is not what this disscution is about. I'm new to the sight I do not know how to properly quote your text

An important point you mentioned I never addressed. Anybody that gets suicidal thoughts should be seeking professional help immediately. Expecting other people to tiptoe around their triggers doesn't help them (whatever they might be..). And actually ends up allowing them to get worse. If you aren't happy with yourself...nothing anyone else does is going to change that.

Trans people do and should seek psychological help! Using the potty isn't abot asking people to "tip toe around peoples triggers" it is about pooping! Arrrrrrrggghhhgghghgghgghghhhhh. Good bye thread

An interesting real-life case is that of Chaz Bono, formerly Chastity Bono (Sonny and Cher's daughter). I tried to watch every interview Chaz gave as he explained his gender identity struggles. I had no clue what was going on and really learned a lot. Please read his book or at least watch the interviews that are on YouTube such as "Gender is between your ears, not between your legs" https://search.yahoo.com/search?p=chaZ+bono+youtube&fr=yset_chr_syc_oracle&type=orcl_default

Trans people do and should seek psychological help! Using the potty isn't abot asking people to "tip toe around peoples triggers" it is about pooping! Arrrrrrrggghhhgghghgghgghghhhhh. Good bye thread
Actually it is. That's exactly what is being demanded of everyone else. No matter what anyone tries to call it... that's exactly what it is.

Actually it is. That's exactly what is being demanded of everyone else. No matter what anyone tries to call it... that's exactly what it is.
What do you suggest they do?

An interesting real-life case is that of Chaz Bono, formerly Chastity Bono (Sonny and Cher's daughter). I tried to watch every interview Chaz gave as he explained his gender identity struggles. I had no clue what was going on and really learned a lot. Please read his book or at least watch the interviews that are on YouTube such as "Gender is between your ears, not between your legs" https://search.yahoo.com/search?p=chaZ+bono+youtube&fr=yset_chr_syc_oracle&type=orcl_default

And age is just a matter of how old you feel, but that argument doesn't work when an immature 18 year old is caught in bed with his mature for her age 15 year old girlfriend... I know where its common, legal and accepted for 16 year old girls to be chasing after MUCH older men..an example late 20's. With their parents permission. And its a catholic country thats not part of the third world. Its just not here.

Just because someone feels like they are Gaelic doesn't make them Gaelic... if their entire ancestry is Maori.

Chaz made the big jump... she had the surgery, I'd consider her male now... based on having external boy bits... Until Bruce Jenner makes that final leap... he's not a woman. Men have penises and women have vaginas... actual functionality of the organs as nature intended is beside the point. Clothes can be changed in minutes. The complete surgery is a permanent decision.

So it's only the visible external secondary sex characteristics that should matter? If he has a penis, he's male, no matter what his hormones tell him.

Since this thread has traveled so far away from the original question, I am closing it.

If you wish to continue the Discussion, please start a new thread on the proper board.