Okay, at the advice of , RubyPitbull I have started a new thread. A new discussion.

Sort of talking out what we feel is wrong with this world - or our country. What we can do to fix it or make it better.

What tops your list as the most important issue?

There are lots to choose from

How we handle our criminals - is it fair or right that a non violent criminal gets 20 years for not paying his taxes and the guy he shares his cell with killed a child, but will get out in 7 with good behavior? Am I the only one that finds that disturbing?
(I guess that is what gets me going)

Or how about the war? How much longer do our guys have to fight and die? When can they come home? What is the war really about anyway?

What makes you angry? How would you change it if you could?

So here is my post - I hope you find it thought provoking.

Okay the one thing that really upsets me is that we are spending billions over in Iraq, when we should be fighting the war here at home, Homlessness,drugs,abuse on children. Those are things that we should be focusig on. Don't get me wrong I am grateful for what the soldiers are doing, I just think that the money could be better spent.
Another thing that really irks my chain is when children are victimized and the preditor only gets a short sentence. What is this saying to our children? Arghhhhhhh Sorry I didn't mean to go off... its just I am very passionate about children being protected... thats is probably why I am in school to become a CPS worker.
Geat Topic to post NowWhat!

Ignorance, intolerance and racism top my list of annoyances!

It seems the majority of our problems (and I'm talking worldwide here!) stem from people just not 'getting' other people's culture, or refusing to accept them!

The 'lets bomb that country because they're doing something we do, but differently' or 'let's fly a plane into their buildings because it'll show them the error of their ways'

It's just so FRUSTRATING! We're all different, we look different and we believe in different things, ACCEPT IT!

The climate change thing is pretty scary too, 5 years ago when they were saying 'In 100 years the World is going to end unless we change' I though 'Sod it, I'll be dead!'

Now they're saying 'In 30 years the World is going to end, and there's nothing we can do about it' it's making me twitch a little!

And what's with all these black kids stabbing and shooting each other in London? What's so bad that you need to do that!

/rant

I think crimes against children are awful. We live in a small town and have about 6 predators around us. A few years back, a man got out of jail after serving a 2 year sentence for molesting his 2 young daughters. TWO YEARS. Where is the justice in that? A year for each. Now he is free to hurt others. And that guy in Florida that killed Jessica Lunsford. He may be to insane to get the death penalty. What does that mean?? Yeah he's insane - what sane person buries a 9 year old alive?
But, again, don't pay your taxes and your looking at 20 years? What the heck is going on?

On one hand, I think that our society is intolerant - on the other, I think we are to tolerant. Don't do this because it make this guy unhappy - even if what he is unhappy about is wrong. But, then look at us crosseyed and we are going to blow you up. There is no balance.

I agree completely with you. I can't believe that people that hurt children get away with a short sentence. They talk about how the prisons are overpopulated... well then don't put people that don't deseve to be there in there. Like your example about someone evading taxes. I think that the court system has a lot of work that needs to be done. I am so sorry for hearing about that man... that is disgusting. I kind of have a story about that. I too live in a small town and I was at the grocery store with my son who is two. This man bent down and was helping him pick out a treat. I was right there watching, well this woman informed me that this man was a sex offender. I was so upset. I keep a copy of the sex offenders so that I can keep my child away from them. But this guy didn't have to register as an offender, because he was never convicted. It just really upsets me that we let society and the court system not take child abuse of any kind seriously.

See, here in the UK they're piloting a scheme to tell people how many sex offenders live in different areas. (So you could ask how many live near you, or on a certain route) but no details like names or addresses of these people.

But I don't understand why, or how it's going to help anyone with anything?

Surely as a parent, you should always be on the guard for these sorts of people, surely teaching kids about these situations and keeping them out of harm is a much better strategy!

When I was a kid, a cartoon cat called Charlie taught me about 'Stranger Danger' and the like and I think even today that's the way to go!

Surely there can't be have been a MASSIVE increase in these offences over such a short period?

I think to help with the over population in prisons - those on death row should have their sentence carried out. They sit there for years on end - living better than some of us that are "free".
You never know who you are going to be faced with. Sometimes, my husband thinks I am over-protective of our 6 year old. Then I put it in prospective. Kids get snatched up a stores all the time and they are easy targets for predators. I don't have a problem making her hold my hand through the duration of a trip to walmart. Yeah, she is six and can walk on her own - but our rule is she has a hand AT ALL TIMES. People look at kids as second class citizens.
What do we do to change that? I have driven down the road before and saw a ugly sign in someone's window that said "My neighbor is a sex offender" with a directional arrow. Visually, it was ugly - But the message wasn't. We need to know who we are dealing with and who our kids interact with.

But there has to be... what... millions of undiscovered or unprosecuted sex offenders on this earth.

What about them?

A friend of mine got his 15 year old girlfriend pregnant (idiot!) and was put on the sex offender's register because of it.

Are you seriously suggesting that he's more dangerous than a real sex offender that no-one knows about?

I agree with you. My whole family thinks that I am overprotective... but I myself was victimized and I won't let it happen to my son. I think that those on death row sentences should be carried out also.
They are thinking of making sex offenders have different license plates... I think that is a wonderful idea... we need to start taking action to stop children from being victimized. They can't protect themselves so its our job. I think like huntersbar said that we should have children learn about stranger danger.

I was reading in another post about the Don Imus situation. And it looks as though his fate is going to be determined by money. He is starting to lose advertisers.
And someone said that is the way the U.S. works.
I have to say that makes me sad. I know it is true. We have given so much power to the "almighty dollar". Why? Yes, money is nice if you have it. It makes things easier. But, really, is it the most important thing?
The most treasured things in my life you could not buy in any store.
We spout all these things about family values and blah blah blah - but do we say that because it is the "right" thing to say?
How do we go about making things right in this world? We can talk all day long about what is wrong - but what do we DO to make it right?

You are right in the fact that money dosen't make the world go around. I am trying to make the children protection happen by becoming a CPS worker. I think that we need to start taking action on things that matter.

But there has to be ... what ... millions of undiscovered or unprosecuted sex offenders on this earth.

What about them?

A friend of mine got his 15 year old girlfriend pregnant (idiot!) and was put on the sex offender's register because of it.

Are you seriously suggesting that he's more dangerous than a real sex offender that no-one knows about?!

Yes, our system is flawed. In our state, they list the offenders on a scale. Depending on the crime - some are just listed as offenders then you have predators. They also list what the violation was - like if was against a child under a certain age.

I think that a system has to be in place. It has to! People are going to fall through the cracks, yes, but what would happen if there was nothing?

I think personal accountability should be the main thing fixed.

People should not be able to sue someone because they themselves did something stupid. Spilling hot coffee, sueing the family of a criminal for killing their child, sueing because their apartment building lost power for 2 hours, etc etc etc.

GROW UP! The world isn't always fair, it's not always nice, and take some action for yourself! Protect your kids, teach them about dangers and how to handle them (including dangers about teen sex, bouncing checks, living with credit cards, etc) rather than just trying to protect them from the big, bad world.

YES, bad things happen to good people, but people should be held accountable for their OWN actions. You have kids? Then FEED THEM YOURSELF! If you can't feed your own child (or get help from your family) then DON'T HAVE SEX! Or place your child for adoption! You can't afford food? Then you shouldn't have cable TV!

I'm tired of paying for people to have better lives that could just learn to do without such "luxuries" as cable TV, cell phones, televisions, computers, etc.

I know someone who had to go to the Salvation Army for Christmas for their kids. They had a better Christmas than I did! They got a DVD player (brand new) with 12 new movies, new clothes all around (which is great ! That's a necessity!), new blankets, pillows, pots, pans, an electric mixer, plus things to make their Christmas dinner (the turkey, trimmings, potatoes, food for 20 for a week). At my house, we had 2 gifts each, and chipped in to make the family's large meal (for extended family--$10 per adult, $4 per kid, and that got everything).

I live in a building that sponsers Section 8 housing. I think section 8 is GREAT! Way to help families do something better than hovels or scummy landlords! BUT... I live in a luxury apartment. I pay heavily for the privilege of living in this building... nearly $1000 per month (which is high, for my area). It drives me nuts that Section 8 isn't just decent housing, but LUXURY housing!

I have sympathy for my fellow man. I know that some people hit hard times, and just need a litle help to get through... but some people make it a lifestyle, and THAT is what irks me.

Accountability!

Synnen - I give you a 100% approval for that post.
Well said.

Synnen, I totally agree!

This is something I am guilty of - I am passionate about what I believe in and can pick out errors of the way we live or what is wrong in the world.
But, I honestly have no idea of how to make a difference. I have charities that I support - like Breast Cancer Awareness - and I do the Walk for a cure - I am helping. But, to change some of the big things - I do not know how to do it.
Can you imagine just me standing outside the white house with a picket sign? Not much is going to happen.

I agree that there should be a list, but only for job checks and things like that.

I don't see the point in a publicly viewable list, I think it just sparks vigilantyism!

My point is this; shouldn't you be protecting your children in general, instead of specific situations and if you are, what is the point in a list?

First off, do you have children?

Nope

Okay, Well then,
Let me tell you, I have a 6 year old daughter. She is not emotionally capable to understand what would happen to her if she was raped. She would pay a price for the loss of her innocence for the rest of her life.
I can not look in my daughters eyes and know that if I don't do EVERYTHING to protect her - I have failed.
I want to know what my dangers are. What I am fighting. If I live 2 doors down from a man that got out of jail for a sexual offense and he has a thing for very young girls - I might know better how to instruct my daughter. If I let it be a silent killer - How do I protect against that? Ignorance is not bliss.

Let me ask this - Would you knowingly buy a home next to a mass murderer? One that the only reason he is not in jail is due to a technicality?
I wouldn't. If you are informed - you can make better choices. That is why a list is in place.

Yes, but you don't seem to understand what I'm saying!

You may well have a convicted peadophile living 2 doors down from you that you know about, but what about the peadophile who's living NEXT door to you that no-one knows about?

Are you going to be more happy to let your 6 year old into certain situations with your next-door neighbour more because you don't know his past?

Surely not, surely your protection and teaching is going to be the same for both situations?

What if there's a mix-up and someone gets on the 'list' by mistake, that's a life needlessly ruined! I just think it's a very bad idea!

And I don't think I'D be emotionally capable of understanding what happened to ME if I was raped.

Would you knowingly buy a home next to a mass murderer? One that the only reason he is not in jail is due to a technicality?

Sorry, I think that's a ridiculous analagy and a loaded question, no-one would answer 'yes' to that!

For me, I don't really let my daughter play at houses that I don't know the people.
If she wants to play with friends, they typically come here.
My analogy is - would you put yourself in harms way knowingly? No you would not.
So, this list helps us protect our children more.
Have you ever watched "to catch a predator" on nbc? Week after week after week - the men just keep pouring in thinking they are going to have sex with a young teen.
A list of this nature - arms us with knowledge.
And you know the list isn't just for parents. It is for everybody. You aren't listed as an offender if your crime is just against child - you can rape an 80 year old woman and be on the list. (obviously)
I would want to know if the person that just moved in is a convicted rapist. It kind of goes back to the sentencing of our criminals. He raped someone and he is out in 5 years. Back to do it again. Wouldn't you want to know?

And you said you couldn't understand being raped - I don't think anyone could - but as adults, we have an idea of how the world works, children don't. My daughter still believes that daddy can get the monsters out from under her bed.

Well, I have a list of my very own of things that make me upset –

On a much smaller scale, but perhaps if we fix things on a smaller scale, it will have a positive effect on our bigger issues.

1) Jealousy. Really, really really really dislike jealousy. If someone has a nice house, being jealous of them IS NOT going to get you a nice house. If you want to be blond, for God sake, go and be blond, don’t be all hateful of the pretty blond (pretty red head, pretty brunette, etc etc etc) you see or have to work with. Take care of yourself and be happy with the beautiful blessings that make you, uniquely you :)

2) Why? Why is it viewed to be okay to say whatever you want about America and/or Americans and you AIN’T from here and have no intentions of coming here and for sure for sure no dreams of becoming a citizen?? Why? This really p’s me off and I feel bad about it, but it still p’s me off. Why does it p me off? Because, personally, I find it to be disrespectful. Sorry, but I do.

I agree, I don't think we americans are bad people at all. And if you don't like it, leave.

If a person has served time for their crime, should they go on being punished by society for the rest of their lives? If so, then why not just kill them straight out? Most people who are against the death penalty are ALSO against having "criminals" in their neighborhood.

How do you protect your daughter? You teach her that certain kinds of touching are BAD, no matter WHO they come from. You teach her not to talk to or go with strangers, no matter what they tell her. Statistically, children are more likely to be molested by a family member than a stranger or a neighbor, anyway.

Knowing that the guy down the street is a registered sex offender should just mean that you don't leave your kid alone with him, and you don't ask him (or her! ) to babysit. It doesn't mean that they shouldn't be able to go to church, or mow their lawn, or that you have the right to egg their house because they *gasp* have the AUDACITY to live in your neighborhood. If you don't like it, then MOVE.

As it has been stated, some of those "sex offenders" just made the bad choice to have sex with a willing 15 year old when they (the offender) were 18. Yeah... that's a HORRIBLE sex offender. My PARENTS had that age gap too. Does that make my dad a sex offender?

Common sense, people.

And no... I don't have kids. I have nieces and nephews that I love very much though, and have recently had to deal with the oldest telling me that his DAD is making him uncomfortable. Isn't that worse than the guy down the street? How do you protect a kid from his own parent? Shouldn't it just be blanket teachings about what's bad, not "that person right there is bad"?

I agree 100% that you should teach your child about what is appropriate and what is not.
Of course - you have to teach them. That way when they leave the nest, they can protect themselves.
But look at these kids that are snatched from their yard or even their beds. The safety of their own homes - what do you do? I don't think a person ever pays for his crime. Maybe in the eyes of the law. But, tell that to the person that was violated and has to deal with the effects of the other person's crime for the rest of their lives. It is never over for them. Why should the criminal get the luxury of a clean slate?

That's what I'm saying---they DON'T get a clean slate.

But... You or I don't have the right to determine who can live in our neighborhoods, or who can go to our churches, or who can shop in our stores.

If you don't like it, then move. Seriously. You have the right to KNOW that he's there, but not the right to do anything about it other than to inform your kids not to have anything to do with him.

You also have the right to change churches if you don't like who attends yours. You have the right to shop ina different store, or get a different job, or whatever.

The kind of actions you're wanting to take are the same as people did in the last century to blacks in their neighborhood, or more recently, for homosexuals living in the neighborhood or going to church or whatever.

Personal accountability means this: We don't have to like someone or something, but we only have the right determine how WE react to it. We don't have the right to hold someone else accountable for our own actions.

I agree that the knowledge that a criminal (of ANY kind) living in your neighborhood is good; I disagree that you can drive that criminal out simply because you don't like it.

I am not saying drive them out. I don't think I have said that in my posts. I am saying that we should be armed with knowledge. Armed with the knowledge of where these people are. This way we can protect ourselves and our children.

I guess the thing that bothers me is that sex offenders (some of which, remember, just chose the wrong willing person to have sex with) are treated differently than any other violent criminal.

There's no list telling me whether the guy down the street served time for manslaughter because he killed a kid when he was drunk driving. There's no list telling me that the woman upstairs has had 3 drug convictions, all for crystal meth.

I just think that if you're going to hang out ONE kind of dirty laundry, you should hang it ALL out.

I agree. Where I live, you can go to a website and find criminal records of those other offenders. It is all public record. So, essentially there is a list for all criminals.

Okay, we have been talking about sexual offenders and criminals.
What do you guys think about topics like religion, welfare, taxes, the war, immigration. How about disease research, gas prices, various charities?

How about the population and its expotential growth rate. To feed and house the coming population we will have to cut the remaining new growth forests for homes and farm land. That will cause more of the same problems that are killing us now. The Ozone is already damaged and first the frogs mutated and now the honey bees are experiancing mass die offs. Einstein said that if the honey bees died off, we would have roughly four years before we started to starve and die off. I agree with that. The only way to restore the earth or at least stop further damage is if 2/3 of the worlds population would just disappear.
We have done a poor job of keeping Mother Earth healthy because we thought the resources were infinite. That just isn't the case. You can blame certain people or you can blame greed in general but really, we are all to blame. We feel that reproduction is our most dear, basic right, so I don't see anyone curbing the population growth on their own.
No one is willing to initiate self depravation to stop the problem as I see only more cars, trucks and ATVs running about. More trees being cut to build more Hummer homes and more yards to water with our fresh drinking water.
I say we are driving ninety miles an hour into the brick wall of our destiny. I say we are on the dogs back the red indians speak of and that dog is ready for a big shake to expel the fleas. We, after all, are the biggest parasite on the planet.

I agree. If there isn't a planet anymore - we are all dead and the other stuff doesn't matter.

Where my parents/family live - they have to do water bans. Most of the summer - yards can not be watered. There is never enough rain fall and they are always in a drought. It has been that way for as long as I can remember.

So, for those of you that know about our environment and the problems, etc. What can we do to help? I have always heard about airsols. Like you should use a pump hairspray instead because of the ozone. That sounds easy enough - is there more things like that out there, that maybe the average person who does not follow global warming, might not know about?

2) Why? Why is it viewed to be okay to say whatever you want about America and/or Americans and you AIN’T from here and have no intentions of coming here and for sure for sure no dreams of becoming a citizen??? Why? This really p’s me off and I feel bad about it, but it still p’s me off. Why does it p me off? Because, personally, I find it to be disrespectful. Sorry, but I do.

Great post Allheart. I like your thinking about us all fixing the smaller issues we all face. The big ones will filter on from there hopefully.

As far as the comment above though I just have to say that all people from all countries are subjected to this. Not just America and Americans. Sure it may seem like that because you live there and I'm sure you see a lot of it, but I think that is because you are such a big and powerful nation and whether you like it or not your government has made you the focus of the world. But this happens, as I said, to all countries and all kinds of people, just on a different scale because the countries are on a different scale.

Important issues? As a parent of a child with severe disabilities - yes, I have some important issues. The government would rather my child be placed in a group home, that would cost the government at least $4000.00 dollars a month but they cannot give the parents any kind of funding to help keep the child home. They would rather burn out the parents then extend a hand. There are very limited programs for home care, long waiting periods for the those programs and inadequate hours of contracted services.

Yes, I care about the long term viability of the Earth - I just do not see the Earth being able to sustain life as we know it. Too many people using precious non-renewable resources.

The jails and prisons are full beyond belief - why is that? Are there really more criminals or are there fewer alternatives to punishments?

Politicians make a pretty darn good career out of being in Washington and coming back only when they want the voter's vote. Why do we continue to allow career politicians? Serve two terms and then come and get a job that reflects the average citizen - lose the perks and the bonuses and the PAC's.

I have many more, but I will stop here.

Great post Allheart. I like your thinking about us all fixing the smaller issues we all face. The big ones will filter on from there hopefully.

As far as the comment above though i just have to say that all people from all countries are subjected to this. Not just America and Americans. Sure it may seem like that because you live there and i'm sure you see a lot of it, but i think that is because you are such a big and powerful nation and whether you like it or not your government has made you the focus of the world. But this happens, as i said, to all countries and all kinds of people, just on a a different scale because the countries are on a different scale.


That does make sense Skell. It really does. I do try and look at it through another perspective. Sometimes it is hard though and to be honest, I don't really mind other peoples perspective, I actually welcome it, as long as I sense there is respect behind the words spoken.

Thanks Skell :D - Always great to hear from you :).

I agree Allheart. There has to be respect. Actually that would be high on the list of things I hate about this world. Respect and the lack thereof. To the elderly, to the disabled, to the young, to the black, to the white... There is a massive shortage of it. Almost as much as water...

I agree Allheart. There has to be respect. Actually that would be high on the list of things i hate about this world. Respect and the lack thereof. To the elderly, to the disabled, to the young, to the black, to the white... There is a massive shortage of it. Almost as much as water...


So true Skell so very true. And to each other. In stores, on the road, on the phone, waiting in line. That, which you just hit on, probably is at the base of many of the problems that we discuss right here at AMHD.

Health care. Coverage for all not just poor and old.

Matt - Absolutely!! I couldn't agree more.

I mean my mother has no health conditions and pays almost 1000$ a month.
I have none, yet my ex who has hardly ever held a job her whole life and has paid nothing into the system gets on average 20 to 30 thousand ayear paid for at no cost to her (well 1$ co pays) (she is diabetic and doesn't take care of it.)

Matt - why does your Mom pay so much a month??

Because she is 60 yr old. Trust me it is cheap too. Health insurance is unbelievable. She has friends with prob that pay 2 thousand a month.
It's sad because she is a widow and bt the time she retires she will be long broke.

I think when she is 65 - She will get medicare part A and then can pay for part B - and then roll that into an HMO, if that's what she wanted to do and if it still works that way.

My goodness $1000 per month. That's just awful.

I agree with protecting your children... youwill do anything for them.. actually if you go under Google and type in your hometown and state and sex offenders.. it will give you the name and an account of what they did... I found it really helpful.

I think that universal health care is very important for everyone. Sickness can wipe out your checking account and savings. And you pay an arm and leg for just going to see the doctor. Not to mention the medications. I think that the government needs to focus on this issue.

To pay devil's advocate with you...

I don't WANT socialized medicine. Absolutely not!

I like being able to choose my doctor, and being able to pay to get better care. Yes, it's expensive, but... so are lawsuits.

You want to drop the cost of medicine? Make it so that people can't sue their doctor because of simple human error. EVERYONE makes mistakes at their job. To be able to sue a doctor for malpractice because his judgement call was wrong means that they have to have higher malpractice insurance and therefore must charge more.

Once again, it goes back to personal accountability, and taking responsibility for your own life. If your doctor tells you that the mole is normal, you have the right to get a second or third or fourth opinion! You *shouldn't* have the right to sue him if he's wrong.

On the OTHER side of that coin--if doctors were not getting sued for every time they didn't save someone, then we could make the lawsuits that were left, the ones for gross negligence (like drinking before operating) MUCH more stringent, and break up the "good old boys" club of doctors that protect each other when stuff like that happens.

Let's throw this in there, too, then: If people in America took better care of themselves through diet, exercise and regular checkups, stopped smoking (because by now, who doesn't know it's bad for you?) and just generally took better care of their own bodies... wouldn't health care costs come down?

I think that a law passed by President Bush that makes suing a doctor for malpractice pretty tough. Our neighbor had his apendix out 6 years ago. Then 2 years ago, he started to get really sick. His wife took him to the dr. and they could not figure out what was wrong. The symptoms matched those of an apendix rupturing, but he had already had that removed. Well, they had to do exploritory surgery and discovered that not all of his apendix had been removed and it was rupturing. I guess he had a large apendix and the original doctor just clamped it off and never told anyone. He was out from work for months on end, their health care wasn't great and they are swamped in bills. They were just getting by to start with. When they contacted an attorney, they were told they had no case because he didn't die and eventually he will be able to go back to work. And the attorney said it was due to the new law that had just been passed.

As far as medicine - that is the drug companies. I don't think we realize just how much we do pay. Most medicines are marked up 3000%. THREE THOUSAND! That is outrageous.

We take good care of ourselves - but my daughter has asthma. And those medicines she is on cost us over $200 a month. We also just found out that she has a possible blood disorder. The blood studies they do cost a couple thousand dollars and she has to do 3 just to rule out one issue. Once that is ruled out, we have to start over.
It is crazy. And we aren't in the poor house, but we aren't rolling in it either - we have mounting dr. bills, because we haven't met the deductable for this year yet. It is a never ending cycle.

Also, I think picking your own doctor is an illusion. We have insurance with a pretty big company - it is decent.
We can go in our network and not pay as much. Or we do have the option to go outside the network, but pay more.
Yes, we have options - but we, like most people, are motivated to choose a dr. that the insurance has approved.

I understand that medical bills are what will send most people to the poor house... but most people who live in countries with socialized medicine will tell you that it's not all that it's cracked up to be. You have just as many problems with malpractice and misdiagnosing, because doctors and pharmacies are paid a flat rate, not what it actually costs them, to practice.

Look... it takes 10 years of college to become a medical doctor or pharmacist. Nursing only takes 4 years, but they are understaffed, overworked, and underpaid, with little time off or real "benefits" other than health, generally. I would expect ANYONE putting that much time and money into their career to be paid that much.

The problem is that other careers, like law, aren't pretty much required by everyone to get by. Most people don't end up needing a lawyer at least once a year--but they do need to see a doctor and a dentist that often.

I agree that pharmaceudical companies are nuts with their prices... but I haven't looked into what that money goes into, either. Wouldn't you be willing to pay a huge markup on your medicine, if that meant a cure for AIDS or cancer? Like I said though... I don't know where that money goes. And if it DOES go into the pockets of those companies, well... they're the ones spending money on the research to make the drugs, too, aren't they?

I think that this, like many other issues, is TOO regulated by the government. I think that the government is waaaaaaay too involved with way too much.

Think about it this way: you have medical insurance/benefits, even if it IS high, and your deductible almost puts you in the poorhouse. You still have a daughter who is LIVING with asthma, a computer to write about it on these forums, the education to have a decent job, enough to eat, a roof over your head, and a telephone. You probably also have a TV, car, some movies, a DVD player or VCR, electricity... you get the idea. Most people in the world do NOT. Getting medical assistance, of ANY kind, no matter HOW expensive... that's a godsend to people all around the world.

If you don't like the costs... write to your congressperson about the markup on medicine. Talk to your doctor about less expensive options. Write to pharmaceudical companies and TELL them that you think their business practices are awful and unhumanitarian.

My parents were hit head-on by a vehicle 7 years ago. The other vehicle was doing more than 100 mph, my parents saw it coming and were stopped. They racked up $750,000.00 in medical bills. The other driver was uninsured, and their insurance stopped covering them at whatever their policy covered (I think it was $250k). They were so happy to be alive afterwards, and to be able to walk, and work, and see their grandchildren... they happily make that payment every month. They'll be making payments for the rest of their lives, but at least they HAVE those lives.

I pay for my kid's medicine every month - with no problem - because she needs it. And if there were medicines out there that cured cancer or aids, I would have no problem paying for that as well. Just as I have no problem going to the dr. to make sure she is healthy. We have had to take her a lot. (I have heard way to many times "We have never seen anything like this" :) )
And I am blessed in my life. I know there are so many people out there that don't have food or housing. I just think our system could be better. There was a child recently that died outside of a hospital because he and his mother were sent away due to no insurance. I think that is horrible. No one should have to suffer or die because of their ability or lack there of, to pay for insurance.


As far as nurses being underpaid - I don't know if I agree with that. I have friends that are nurses and believe me - they get paid quite well. But, they are over worked and most are burnt out.

I have a friend who is an emergency room nurse, and she doesn't make much more than I do a year, and I don't have a degree!

I'm glad you know your blessings... and you're right, the system could be better! The problem is that there really is no punishment for those who take advantage of the system. I have no problem helping someone who is truly ill, and who is truly trying to make payments (that is, after all, part of the reason costs are high). However, there are a ton of people out there that just skip out on medical bills, leaving the rest of us to pick up the costs that THEY didn't pay for.

That goes for people taking advantage of the welfare system for medical things as well. I'm perfectly happy to pay for birth control for people who can not afford children, but why should I pay for those same people to raise kids that they could have prevented? My husband and I would dearly love to have a child, but simply can't afford it (mostly because we need a fertility specialist involved) --so naturally I'm resentful of paying the health care for people who were on welfare to begin with, eschewed birth control, and now they have 4 kids! How fair is that?

I know it's kind of heartless, but I'm almost to the point where I want people to have their children taken away from them (and believe me, I KNOW what kind of hell that is) if they can't afford the ones they already HAVE! Maybe that would make people more aware of the consequences of unprotected sex!

Unfortunately, as someone else stated... it's somehow become a RIGHT to reproduce. Never mind that you no longer have to take the consequences of having too many--the government will step in and pay for your kids if you can't afford them.

(Can you tell I'm a little bitter about it?)

Trust me I know your frustration. (on some level) My 19 yr. old uneducated niece and criminal boyfriend - now husband had a baby in September. She has never worked and for some reason he can't hold a job down. They have absoultely NO BUSINESS raising a kid. (and are now planning for #2! )
My brother and his wife desperatley want a child, but she can't have them due to some female health issues. It kills them. And it kills our family to watch.

I think the welfare system is good for those who need it and want to make a better life for themselves. My husband had to be on it when he was a kid - but his parent's plan was not to live off the system. They need it to get back on their feet and once they did - they were able to get off it. They had 4 kids - it can be done. But, I agree that, for those who abuse it - they should be ashamed.
I worked at a check cashing place once, and every month people would come in to cash their welfare check - wearing nicer clothes and jewlery than I had. And then they would drive away in a luxury car. It is FRUSTRATING!
I think a time limit should be put on welfare. You can get assistance for x amount of time. Once you have reached that - you are on your own. And give plenty of time for these people to make a change. Not a month...
When you start thinking of all the things wrong with our world - you want to scream!

Well, Nowwhat, I just finally found your post!

I believe what everyone has stated here are all very valid and vital concerns. However, I think magprob has brought up the most important concern of all. I am only taking a portion of his post due to the length.


How about the population and its expotential growth rate. We have done a poor job of keeping Mother Earth healthy because we thought the resources were infinite. we are all to blame. We feel that reproduction is our most dear, basic right, so I don't see anyone curbing the population growth on their own.
I say we are driving ninety miles an hour into the brick wall of our destiny. I say we are on the dogs back the red indians speak of and that dog is ready for a big shake to expell the fleas. We, after all, are the biggest parasite on the planet.

I do believe that we have let our population grow exponentially, and it continues to grow unchecked. As a direct result of that alone, we will be wiped out completely before we can resolve any of the other problems brought up here. Mother Nature is completely out of whack. I believe that she will correct herself to ensure her survival. I believe that it is already occurring. If we use as an example something small, such as insects. Every year, where I live, we get inundated with one type or another. Sometimes that inundation of one species will last a few years. Then, suddenly they are gone. The population has been cut back to normal proportions. Why? I have never heard any scientific satisfactory explanation of this occurrence. I do believe Mother Nature corrects the imbalance. In the scheme of things, we are not any greater than insects on this planet. This correction will happen. As to when, well, it is anybody's guess but I believe it will happen a lot sooner than people realize. Look at these drug resistant strains of diseases that seem to be rapidly occurring. Maybe the Asian Flu will wipe the majority of us out in a few years.

To pay devil's advocate with you...

I don't WANT socialized medicine. Absolutely not!

I like being able to choose my doctor, and being able to pay to get better care. Yes, it's expensive, but....so are lawsuits.

You want to drop the cost of medicine? Make it so that people can't sue their doctor because of simple human error. EVERYONE makes mistakes at their job. To be able to sue a doctor for malpractice because his judgement call was wrong means that they have to have higher malpractice insurance and therefore must charge more.

Once again, it goes back to personal accountability, and taking responsibility for your own life. If your doctor tells you that the mole is normal, you have the right to get a second or third or fourth opinion! You *shouldn't* have the right to sue him if he's wrong.

On the OTHER side of that coin--if doctors were not getting sued for every time they didn't save someone, then we could make the lawsuits that were left, the ones for gross negligence (like drinking before operating) MUCH more stringent, and break up the "good old boys" club of doctors that protect each other when stuff like that happens.

Let's throw this in there, too, then: If people in America took better care of themselves through diet, exercise and regular checkups, stopped smoking (because by now, who doesn't know it's bad for you?) and just generally took better care of their own bodies.....wouldn't health care costs come down?

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you say here. It is so true and I share the same opinion.

I just wonder if our opinion on this would be changed if it were us or one of our children who was on the receiving end of some bad advice given by a doctor that came back to hurt us. It is a common trait for us as humans to criticize others for doing something we don't agree with but when put in the same position we act in the same way as those we were critical of!

So we just don't know what we would do if our family doctor ensured us our son's mole was OK only to find out later that it was actually cancer do we??

Well, I think that part of it is the natural human reaction to "get even". The doctor ruined OUR life (or our child's life), therefore, we're going to ruin HER/HIS life. Or we feel that one bad decision means that all of the decisions made by that doctor are bad.

Again, though... I must stress that if you REALLY feel that something is wrong with you or your child, and your doctor says there isn't... then shouldn't you be getting a second opinion anyway?

If you don't, then you are just as responsible as the doctor if something is indeed wrong.

Believe it or not, most doctors are in the business because they want to help people, not so much for the money. However, the money helps when they, like all of us, become cynical about the way people try to buck the system to get something for nothing.

I am on welfare. I get medicaid for my son and foodstamps. But that is only because I am trying to better our life by getting an education. I agree that people who abuse welfare should be ashamed... but those who do not.. should not feel bad or less than others. I know that it is the most embarrassing thing having to use foodstamps.
I also agree that people should be held responsible for their own actions. I don't however think that medical should be a privliage and not a right. There are numerious times I haven't gone to the doctor and ended up in the hospital. You know what's really messed up? My caseworker told me that if I quit school I could get medical and everything... the government pushes education but dosen't help out those people that are really trying to do better? That is a concern of mine.

Absolutely!

Welfare is there for those people who need it for a helping hand, not for those people that make it a lifetyle! The very fact that you are ashamed when using food stamps is a perfect example of why you are NOT one of those people abusing the system!

I think that if we could figure out how to coexist with one another - a large part of the battle is won. Sometimes we get caught up in our own world, that we forget that millions of other people are out - maybe not forget - but don't care.
We don't have respect for each other. Most of the time - we are down right rude. What happened to saying hello or giving a smile and wave to someone? Now it's "don't make eye contact and they won't talk to me"
When we moved in our home, my husband and I would sit on the front porch and watch the cars pass. I would wave at everybody. My husband said to me to stop. (I was getting weird looks) but I said NO. If I can put a simple pleasant gesture out there and make someone feel good for even half a second - then maybe they can pass it on.
I know it is simple minded - but what is wrong with that? Don't little things count?
Shouldn't we have more random acts of KINDNESS?

I, also, feel that we live in a throw away society. If something isn't working for us - just get rid of it. We throw our marriages away, our kids etc.
And we want everything now - but aren't willing to do the work to get it.

I asked what gets you going and I have got some great responses. Now, any idea of how to fix them?
I think we doubt the power of one. But, if each person did something small everyday - would it make a difference?
If we all didn't water our lawns everyday this summer - what impact would it have? Or if we all sacrificed our beautiful hair style and stopped using airsol hairspray and went to the pump - what effect would it have on the ozone? If we started car-pooling more with our neighbor or took the bus - what would happen?
If one became millions doing little things that wouldn't "put us out" - what effect would it have?

Wow, Nothing? I hope all of you just have your thinking caps on and are coming up with something good.

Wow, Nothing? I hope all of you just have your thinking caps on and are coming up with something good.It may be the case that many of us have families and things to do on the weekend.

what's wrong with the world? Ans=people

To pay devil's advocate with you...

I don't WANT socialized medicine. Absolutely not!

I like being able to choose my doctor, and being able to pay to get better care. Yes, it's expensive, but....so are lawsuits.

You want to drop the cost of medicine? Make it so that people can't sue their doctor because of simple human error. EVERYONE makes mistakes at their job. To be able to sue a doctor for malpractice because his judgement call was wrong means that they have to have higher malpractice insurance and therefore must charge more.

Once again, it goes back to personal accountability, and taking responsibility for your own life. If your doctor tells you that the mole is normal, you have the right to get a second or third or fourth opinion! You *shouldn't* have the right to sue him if he's wrong.

On the OTHER side of that coin--if doctors were not getting sued for every time they didn't save someone, then we could make the lawsuits that were left, the ones for gross negligence (like drinking before operating) MUCH more stringent, and break up the "good old boys" club of doctors that protect each other when stuff like that happens.

Let's throw this in there, too, then: If people in America took better care of themselves through diet, exercise and regular checkups, stopped smoking (because by now, who doesn't know it's bad for you?) and just generally took better care of their own bodies.....wouldn't health care costs come down?

Remember New Orleans! Remember the VA hospitials! Very wise observation Synnen.

Having read just the first page of this thread with the stranger/pervert posts -- I find it hard to believe that you folks do not know that the majority of child abuses is committed by a family member or a guest in the home.

Important issues? As a parent of a child with severe disabilities - yes, I have some important issues. The government would rather my child be placed in a group home, that would cost the government at least $4000.00 dollars a month but they cannot give the parents any kind of funding to help keep the child home. They would rather burn out the parents then extend a hand. There are very limited programs for home care, long waiting periods for the those programs and inadequate hours of contracted services.

Yes, I care about the long term viability of the Earth - I just do not see the Earth being able to sustain life as we know it. Too many people using precious non-renewable resources.

The jails and prisons are full beyond belief - why is that? Are there really more criminals or are there fewer alternatives to punishments?

Politicians make a pretty darn good career out of being in Washington and coming back only when they want the voter's vote. Why do we continue to allow career politicans? Serve two terms and then come and get a job that reflects the average citizen - lose the perks and the bonuses and the PAC's.

I have many more, but I will stop here.
Great post and you can add elder care also. -- Savage

Having read just the first page of this thread with the stranger/pervert posts -- I find it hard to believe that you folks do not know that the majority of child abuses is committed by a family member or a guest in the home.

I think that is a known fact. But being able to arm yourself with as much knowledge of your surroundings is a good thing.

It may be the case that many of us have families and things to do on the weekend.

Touchy, Touchy!:o

Okay, I am going to give this thread a little "bump". And sense the weekend is over, needkarma, I can't wait to see what everyone has to say.

Maybe they've said all that is needed to say. Threads and subjects do not have an infinite life. People like channel surfing. :)

Wow you infinite wisdom is amazing.

Thank you. That's why I am well respected here.

I was really looking forward to read what gets you and how you would fix it.
Are you telling me that's not going to happen now? :(

Kids killing other kids with guns and nothing being done about it by the powers that be. So sad what has happened... again. Surely something has to be looked at with the gun laws in the US now?

Hello:

I think you're right. Everyone should have to carry one. How many would this nut have killed if they all had guns?

excon

Would have been like a good old fashioned shootout that John Wayne would have been proud of I imagine.

Once again... PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!

Damn right there's a gun in my house.

Damn right I'd shoot to keep the right to have it.

The right to bear arms is JUST as important as freedom of speech. Just because some people abuse one of those rights doesn't mean everyone does.

Let's not blame the gun, or the fact that he had one. Let's blame the fact that no one taught him that killing is bad.

I'm glad my kids will go to a school where it is much harder for one of their class mates to get access to a weapon to blow their brains out than it is in th US. Just my opinion though. I know the right to bear arms is one of the most fundamental aspects of your constitution and I would not be in a position to argue with you that you shouldn't. As in your country it is your right. Once again I'm just glad it isn't where I am from that isn't the case.

I'm glad that more protection is offered to us than it simply coming down to personal responsibility as we all know that doesn't exist in the current world and it isn't going to change.

Well apparently this person was from China and only came to the us in Aug. 2006. I don't even know how this became a debate on gun control, it's about who we let into our country. We learned nothing from 911. But to tell the truth this whole thing is not adding up. Something is missing. This person had to have had some kind of military training. And they are saying that it was a domestic incident that started the whole thing. If so why would he shoot all these other people. Yet another mystery our government will continue to hide from us.

So its not about how he came to have a gun capable of killing 32 people but simply about why he was ever allowed in to your country? Oh my...

I just saw Bush on Cspam and he stated that it is Governments job to protect the people. Protect us from people with guns. Oh boy, wonder how they going to do that?

So its not about how he came to have a gun capable of killing 32 people but simply about why he was ever allowed in to your country? Oh my...... Yes, he obviously had some kind of mental defect. Do you not think that the government should screen who it allows, to enter the US. I mean after 911 don't you think that someone would have been paying attention.
There are so many guns in the us, that even discussing baning them is ludicrous.
Besides, anyone can make a bomb, or stab someone etc. etc.
I honestly don't even understand, how he was able to kill all those students with the two handguns the police are saying he had.
I mean yeah it makes you wonder where did he get these guns? Since I don't know if they were bought legally or illegally, I can't really comment. Simply put you will never stop someone in the US from getting a gun illegally, there are just too many of them and too many shady people willing to sell them. There are estimates that there are up to 150 million guns in the us. (most don't wear out or break, but are made to last almost forever) But there are allot more questions than that, such as why did the police not enter the building, why was there no alert put out after the first shooting, why was the student body not even notified. Could this have been an act of terrorism? That's about it for my rant.

I just saw Bush on Cspam and he stated that it is Governments job to protect the people. Protect us from people with guns. Oh boy, wonder how they gonna do that? CSpam Very funny.

By shooting them with guns? Or by issuing everyone bulletproof armor?
Or by invading a random countries that no one really likes anyway, and getting all the nuts to go there and fight with the army? Or here is a good idea,
train them all to be assassins, and have them kill each other. Well I am all out of ideas I hope George W. sees this and likes at least one of them.

-Yes, he obviously had some kind of mental defect. Do you not think that the government should screen who it allows, to enter the US. I mean after 911 don't you think that someone would have been paying attention.

-Besides, anyone can make a bomb, or stab someone etc. etc.


These two comments contradict each other somewhat!!

These two comments contradict each other somewhat!!!!
I am not understanding how. I think my terminology may be confusing you.
:)

Wait I think I understand what you are saying, that if anyone can do these things it doesn't matter that he was a foreign student. Any way it's really not all that important, it's just my thoughts on a local subject.

Well, frankly, this incident ticks me off because it's one more reason "the government has to protect the people".

The government is too involved as it is! I don't want to be protected... I want to be able to protect myself!

GaH!

well, frankly, this incident ticks me off because it's one more reason "the government has to protect the people".

The government is too involved as it is! I don't want to be protected....I want to be able to protect myself!

GaH!
YES!! When he takes the oath of office, the President swears to protect and defend the Constitution, and take care that the laws be faithfully executed. Not a word about protecting the people.

Just piping in to say that I'm happy to be Canadian.

We have a gun in our home. I like the fact that it is here. Luckily, we have never had to use it. But, you never know. I do feel safer having it - although, if I did have to use it - I would probably be dead before I got the thing out. Having a child in the house it is put in a case on a high shelf - actually it is in two different cases - one for the gun and one for the bullets and clip.
I think that gun laws could be different. With the fact that there are so many of them in our country - I think that if you are going to own one legally that you should have to learn how to use it properly. Have a brief seminar on gun safety that would go through the basics.
When I bought mine (for my husband) there was a waiting period and they did a background check. No big deal. Then they just gave me the gun and said have a nice day. I really have no idea how to shoot it. (I know how to get it loaded) I just figured that if someone broke into our home I would point and shoot.
We plan on going to a firing range to learn - but that is just going to be for "fun".

Now, I know that none of what I just said would have ANY bearing on what happened in VA yesterday. It really sickens me that this happened. I think there was a real break down in communication with the first 2 shootings and then the rest. The college and police should be ashamed. They had information that could have saved 30 lives.

You know... no matter what the campus and police did, they would have done something wrong in the public's eye.

They very probably have laws and procedures that they have to follow in order to be able to convict a criminal.

Had they alerted campus when they didn't have an identity, how can we know that wouldn't have caused a panic? How can we know that THAT wouldn't have set the shooter off to kill in a different place?

It really irks me to see the campus and police blamed for something that was ENTIRELY the fault of some guy who went off the deep end. I am sure that the authorities handled the case the best they could with the information that they had.

If 2 people were just murdered and the police know that a gunman is possible still on campus - shouldn't someone know? If nothing else the teaching staff? They could have done something. They could have locked the campus down. Made it impossible to get into a classroom. Something.

Hello:

I hate the cops!! But, I don't think they did anything wrong here.

They found a murder. They find murders all the time. They had NO indication that this murder was anything other than any of the murders they investigate. They had no reason to think that a serial killer was on the loose. They had no reason to warn anybody.

A teacher was killed here recently ON the campus of UW, by her estranged boyfriend. They didn't know that's who he was at the time. All they knew was that they had a murder. They didn't LOCK down the entire campus. They didn't warn anybody. They were right. So were the VA cops.

excon

PS> If you ever see another post where I SUPPORT the cops, please kill me.

I guess when something like this happens, it is in our nature to ask what could have been done differently. Or maybe we just look for someone to blame.
This shooter was a student. There were 2 hours between the first shootings and the 2nd. At first they thought it was a murder-suicide. I guess there is no magic answer to make sense of it all. It is just sad.

All the politicians came on CSpam last night and had a moment of silence for the 32 killed. Bush gave a speech about how it it the duty of the gov to protect the people. They don't miss an opportunity these days to pound that into Americas head. The one thing they do know though, if they take the peoples guns, they only take them from the people that were not a threat in the first place.

Hello:

I hate the cops!!! But, I don't think they did anything wrong here.

excon

PS> If you ever see another post where I SUPPORT the cops, please kill me.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/criminal-law/police-harassing-son-82841.html
See posting #6 in the above link.

Hmm. This request has been made in writing on a public forum, so I guess I am covered. So, excon, where might I track you down with my semi-automatic?

-------------

magprob, I agree with you completely. It always comes down to the actual law abiding people vs "others". It is not just guns but with everything considered illegal.

Matt, the guy was from South Korea, not China. Major difference. Many South Koreans come here to study. Are you going to block all of them from the chance to further their education just because one guy was off his nut? I know that the government has a lot to answer for. I know that there is quite a lot here that needs change. I don't know what the answer is to these problems for the United States. For me, I am thinking...

Skell, I like what you are saying about Australia. Soooo, how easy is it to get a resident alien card or citizenship in Aussieland? Remember our agreement about Phuket? I know you aren't married. Maybe we can help each other out here... ;)


The bottom line is that I have been seeing an increasing amount of hypocrisy from the U.S. Government and our elected/unelected officials. I am growing extremely disenchanted with this great nation of ours. Over the last number of years we seem to be purposefully running full force and diving head first into quicksand. I am left feeling completely ill at ease. If an Inconvenient Truth is dead on accurate, I hope that it will come to pass before we become a complete and total "Police State" and I have to worry every time I head on out the door just to run a simple errand.

Ruby that's not what I said I said the government needs to look into the backgrounds of who they allow to enter the US.(I mean everyone in the US is obsessed with the backgrounds of everyone else) And I didn't say it was the polices fault, but whenever things like this happen it has to be examined, to see if there could have been better ways of handling it. The police are, after all, only human.

I agree with that. The problem is, until it happens, they can't come up with a solid plan to handle it. How do you plan for something like this? It is so off the charts crazy.

You made a comment earlier about it being another thing the government isn't telling us. We have so many people coming into this country to attend school. How do you know who to choose to sit down and give a "mentally unstable" test to? What kind of test would it be? How do you determine that? I am sure his background didn't show anything at first glance. He was a kid with South Korean transcripts. How long was he in this country? He might have shown up prior to 9/11 to attend college, for all we know. At the moment, the government needs to piece together all the unanswered questions. We will hear more in the coming days and weeks. I don't think they are withholding anything. I think this was a genuine, "Oh Mother of God" moment.

but whenever things like this happen it has to be examined, to see if there could have been better ways of handling it. The police are, after all, only human.
I think that looking at a tragic thing like this and see what we can do to protect ourselves from it happening again - can turn a negative into a positive.
That is what we do as individuals - we look at mistakes that we make and learn from them.

Yes, so look let's look at the Columbine effect. We now have 5 year olds being suspended in school for sexual harassment and Boy Scouts being arrested for forgetting to take their pocket knives out of their jackets after an outing. Check the news reports on those. I am not kidding.

We have kinks in the system. We can't seem to get out of our own way at times. What is it that we have learned and corrected effectively? Yes, we are only human. That is the point. This stuff is so far from the norm that it is difficult to put an workable system in place. By the time we do, the greenhouse effect will have gotten to us first.

I know, sad but true. If a little boy kisses my daughter at school - he could be expelled for sexual harassment. (she's in 1st grade and still thinks boys are gross) I think it would be extreme. Not that I want boys going around kissing my kid - but it's like balls to the wall or nothing. Is there a happy medium?
Most all schools have a "No tolerance" policy. Yet, my kid has come home having been hit with a weapon at the end of a little boys arm. And, it is blown off. Come to school with a squirt gun and you are kicked out. What gives?
I just think there are areas in our society that think they are not vulnerable to what is going on in the world. We have learned in the last several years that sending your child to a school is not guaranteed safe - so we need to learn.
There needs to be more safety plans in place.

I agree. There also needs to be a little common sense in dealing with issues. It is not as if this happens so many times a day at every single school. For most schools, each incident should be handled rationally and logically. Some of the interpretations of the No Tolerance policies have led to over reactive hysteria on the part of some school officials. Others are too lax. As long as there are people in leadership positions who lack common sense and judgement, there will always be problems.

Some actions are "kids being kids" and you deal with it. Some things need parental intervention. The problem is some parents don't always know the difference.
But with school violence on the rise - what do you do?
There was a school in the news in the last year where a gunman came in and overtook a science class - let most of the kids go with the exception of 5 girls (I think) he sexually assaulted them and then killed some of them - if not all.
Then the school in Amish country - PA, where a sicko takes over the school and kills 7 girls execution style.
So, while we are expelling our kids for bringing unappropriate toys to school - nothing is being done to protect them by uping the security in schools.

Yes, I remember the story. And, the Amish will continue as they have been because of their belief system.

If you look at the instances, they are so few and far between. Yes, the consequences are deadly. But, how do you decide where to up the security and how far do you go with it? What would it entail? Then, there is the added expense of it all.

The problem is... when you handle something with common sense and logic, you STILL have people angry (and suing half the time) when the system fails THEIR kid.

How many lawsuits will come of this VA Tech thing, even though the police and school did the best they could with the information that they had regarding the situation? How many people will say "you killed my son/daughter by keeping them ignorant!"?

Bad things happen to good people sometimes. That's a fact of life.

Here's a thought for you: Most schools have a Zero Tolerance policy on any kind of weapon. Had just ONE of those students owned a gun and had a license to carry it, they STILL would not have been able to have it in the classroom. But... if they HAD been able to carry a weapon into the classroom, wouldn't they have been able to prevent the deaths by shooting the shooter? So... let's blame the students for not having guns, and the school for not allowing them!

What kind of stupid logic is that? Yet... that's the logic people use when they're hurting. They look for anyone to blame besides themselves. Let's blame rock'n'roll! Let's blame video games! Let's blame Hitler!

Let's blame religion! Let's blame God! Let's blame marbles (because marbles are DANGEROUS!)! Let's blame guns, drugs, sex, loose morals, Don Imus, nappy headed hos, the French influence, the IRS, the CIA, Kennedy and the Beatles!

(I'm a little wound up, I think)

But the idea is... teach your kids right from wrong. Teach them that life isn't fair. Teach them that you won't always get your way in any sphere of life, but especially in the area of "love". Teach them that the world does not revolve around them, and that while they're special, they're not special enough to get on the team just because they want it.

I'm just tired of everyone wanting everything to be fair. Life isn't fair.

I like your post, Synnen, you are right. When we are hurting - we look for someone else to blame.
I guess, for me, I need to find a silver lining. What can we take from this? What can we learn?

As far uping security - I don't know. I know that if I choose to, I can walk right into my daughter's school and walk around without being noticed. Even though I am supposed to stop by the office and get a visitor tag. No one will question me. I am not a "well known" parent or anything. But, if I can go around so freely - who's to say a guy with a gun can't as well. I have to say it scares me a little.
We have taken for granted that our kids will come home safe.

My, Synnen, you are wound up! Although, I do agree with you on everything except for the Hitler comment. He was to blame for the past transgressions dealt upon the world.

But he's NOT to blame for current transgressions.

For pity's sake, the man has been DEAD for 60 years!

I was referring to the fact that the Columbine students were into the writings of Hitler and that was one of the things that they blamed for their rampage.

Back to this thing at VT, from what I understand this person, came to the US last August. And what I am trying to get at is (this is my very own paranoid opinion) this was not a normal college student this person had to have some military training. To me it mlooks like a planned terrorist event. But keep in mind I am very often wrong about most things.

You know... outside of the US, there are many countries that REQUIRE military training right out of high school, before one can attend college. Whether this person was from one of those countries is beyond me.

It's that type of paranoid thinking, though (this MUST be a terrorist attack! Oh NOES!) that let the Patriot Act pass (the scariest act in the history of America, imo), that has the general populace cowed into thinking there's not a thing they can do to protect themselves, they must turn to the government!

This was some guy who (probably) found out his girlfriend was cheatin on him with an engineering student. So he shot her, and then, because he didn't know WHO the guy was, but he KNEW that he was in THAT particular building at that particular time, went in and just started shooting everyone in that building.

Please.. if you're going plan a terrorist attack, it won't be on students at a University that ultimately has no political pull.

How we handle our criminals - is it fair or right that a non violent criminal gets 20 years for not paying his taxes and the guy he shares his cell with killed a child, but will get out in 7 with good behavior? Am I the only one that finds that disturbing?
(I guess that is what gets me going)
This without a doubt disturbs me to the point I feel sick to my stomach.

And how repeated sex offenders get a little slap on the hand and sent on their marry little way time and time again only to one day abduct a kid (or adult) and do horrible unthinkable things to them... when they should have been lock away in the first place...

But it's all about "their rights"
I say who gives a crap about about "their rights"! What about the rights of the victims!! It seems as they don't have any or that theirs is not as important as the offenders... WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT PICTURE!

Oh it just makes me sick...

I don't know about all that but I was down in the hood the other day and I saw a baby in a diaper selling weed.

Yeah Mag, that's how they get away with it these days;)

Were you buying? Or was the kid competition, Mag?

I don't know about all that but I was down in the hood the other day and I saw a baby in a diaper sellin weed.


That's lill Joe, he's got the best stuff.

Were you buying? or was the kid competition, Mag?

I isn't coppin to sh*#!

Back to this thing at VT, from what I understand this person, came to the US last August. and what I am trying to get at is (this is my very own paranoid opinion) this was not a normal college student this person had to have some millitary training. To me it mlooks like a planed terrorist event. But keep in mind I am very often wrong about most things.

From what I heard on the news just now he came to the US when he was 8 years old from South Korea. Although I'm not and American I imagine that this is a pretty common occurrence? So unless he was trained by your military I don't think that holds up here Matt. But in saying that it wouldn't be the first time someone trained by your military turned on you ;)

Skell, I like what you are saying about Australia. Soooo, how easy is it to get a resident alien card or citizenship in Aussieland? Remember our agreement about Phuket? I know you aren't married. Maybe we can help each other out here..... ;)



No problems Ruby... Ill meet you at the Banana Bar in Bangala Rd, Phuket next Tuesday. Ill put you on a boat back here to oz with 200 others immigrants and pick you up somewhere off the coast of Queensland near the Great Barrier Reef. From there it will be a life of bliss with as little guns around as possible.

I agree with what you are saying Synnen about personal responsibility. Most problems in this world come down to that. They really do. But it is a pretty simplistic view of trying to solve problems to simply say educate your children better. An ideal world would allow that. Everyone would be taught right from wrong and bad things wouldn't happen. But you and I both know that will never happen.

So surely some responsibility must be held by governments etc to provide a level of safety through laws etc.

So no ones is concerned at how simple it is to procure a gun in the US. No one see's that as an issue in this and other similar incidences. Sure they were carried out by whack jobs and maybe they would have happened still, but maybe they also could have been prevented. From an outside view looking in, and I must stress the word outside, I think you'll find most people see gun control laws in the US as a contributing factor to this.

And just so I hope I don't come across as sounding like I am American bashing I will acknowledge that Australia still holds the "record" for the most number of people killed in shooting spree in history. Please see the link below. But I will add that this was carried out in a State that at the time had very "poor" Gun Control Laws. This event was the catalyst for major Gun Control law reform in this country. And one which the majority was happy to see.

If you have time to read all the events that took place that day please do. A horrifying act carried by a complete and utter psychopath.

Port Arthur massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_Massacre)

Gun politics in Australia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia)

From what i heard on the news just now he came to the US when he was 8 years old from South Korea. Although im not and American i imagine that this is a pretty common occurrence? So unless he was trained by your military i don't think that holds up here Matt. But in saying that it wouldn't be the first time someone trained by your military turned on you ;)

Yeah well I was going on yesterdays info. And I am sure that he could have been trained by the us military.
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No problems Ruby... Ill meet you at the Banana Bar in Bangala Rd, Phuket next Tuesday. Ill put you on a boat back here to oz with 200 others immigrants and pick you up somewhere off the coast of Queensland near the Great Barrier Reef. From there it will be a life of bliss with as little guns around as possible.
LMAO! Skell, I can see a rewarding career path for you in the "Human Resources" field (similar to "Natural Resources" in the sense that both are extractive industries).

Ruby, you might want to check out his Better Business Bureau bona fides, and his Dun & Bradstreet rating before you write any big checks.

And just so i hope i dont come across as sounding like i am American bashing i will acknowledge that Australia still holds the "record" for the most number of people killed in shooting spree in history. Please see the link below. But I will add that this was carried out in a State that at the time had very "poor" Gun Control Laws. This event was the catalyst for major Gun Control law reform in this country. And one which the majority was happy to see.

If you have time to read all the events that took place that day please do. A horrifying act carried by a complete and utter psychopath.

Port Arthur massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_Massacre)

Gun politics in Australia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia)

Heeeey :D - What's all this America stuff... hee hee

Yeh, Skell, you are 100% right. I wish all guns here were completely GONE! What are we not getting here??
I just don't understand it, not one bit. It's just awful.

I put that in there especially for you Allheart because I know how proud you are and love your country and I didn't want to look like I was going after it. And you should be proud too. It is a great nation. But all great nations can do with some fine tuning can't they? However, as I have stated I'm from a different land and I know the right to bear arms is a big part of your law. There would be many that see that as a little scary but that is only there opinion which doesn't make it right. Unless it is mine ;)

LMAO! Skell, I can see a rewarding career path for you in the "Human Resources" field (similar to "Natural Resources" in the sense that both are extractive industries).

Ruby, you might want to check out his Better Business Bureau bona fides, and his Dun & Bradstreet rating before you write any big checks.

You don't need any of that stuff to carry out 'business' down under here OG. Didn't you know? We are still a convict settlement!! I have authority on behalf if Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom.

LOL. I remember that. The Aussies are very proud of that heritage.

Don't worry OG. I was planning on telling Skell that next Tuesday just doesn't work for me. Being placed on a barge with 200 other immigrants to be picked up later somewhere off the Great Barrier Reef wasn't exactly what I had in mind. Ya know Skell, if you are going to run a con, you can't tell the "con-ee" your plans upfront. You are supposed to do a little sweet talking. So, far Skell, you are not doing a very good job of carrying on that great tradition that comes with your proud heritage. I am very disappointed in you.

I put that in there especially for you Allheart because I know how proud you are and love your country and I didnt want to look like I was going after it. And you should be proud too. It is a great nation. But all great nations can do with some fine tuning can't they? However, as i have stated im from a different land and I know the right to bear arms is a big part of your law. There would be many that see that as a little scary but that is only there opinion which doesnt make it right. Unless it is mine ;)

Right again there Skell my friend ;) It is soooo scarey !

Here you go. For all of our gun control friends.

Nagasaki mayor dies after shooting - Asia-Pacific - MSNBC.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18151200/)

Here you go. For all of our gun control friends.

Nagasaki mayor dies after shooting - Asia-Pacific - MSNBC.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18151200/)

Thanks it's nice to know that people get killed in other countries too. If you listened to the media you would think it is a decidedly American condition.

And just so i hope i dont come across as sounding like i am American bashing i will acknowledge that Australia still holds the "record" for the most number of people killed in shooting spree in history. Please see the link below. But I will add that this was carried out in a State that at the time had very "poor" Gun Control Laws. This event was the catalyst for major Gun Control law reform in this country. And one which the majority was happy to see.

If you have time to read all the events that took place that day please do. A horrifying act carried by a complete and utter psychopath.

Port Arthur massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_Massacre)

Gun politics in Australia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia)


Wow that is quite, an article.

Thanks it's nice to know that people get killed in other countries too. If you listened to the media you would think it is a decidedly American condition.

Yes, but they think gun control is the fix. That is infantile thinking. In Japan, a country where handguns are outlawed, we see that the Mafia are the only people that have them. Again, in the Va. Killings, a nut walks into a "gun free" zone and has a field day on sitting ducks that have no way to protect themselves because James Bradys wife is busy working to kill our right to bare arms. Did the campus police even have guns? Do you have any idea how easy it is to build a gun in your own home with a drill press and a few other simple shop tools? Criminals know how to do it, they learn in prison. But then, 10 out of 10 Dictators agree, an unarmed people are the easiest to control.

Did you read that article magprob or just post it based on its title? It said that gin killings are rare. Gun killings in America where everyone has them are far from rare. Our infantile approach of gun control certainly seems to keep the kids in our country safer than those in yours. I'm quite happy to forgo my right to bear arms for that cause.

So let me get it clear. You're saying that if you lose your right to bear arms you become easier for your Government to control? I have heard that train of thinking before. Hard to see the logice in it, but I also find it hard to see the logic in wanting to carry a gun.

I really can't believe that you and others think the answer is for everyone to have guns to protect themselves with. It really is like a John Wayne movie isn't it, pilgrim. :)

So everything would be rosy if at the time someone else on campus with a semi automatic had of got to this lunatic first and shot him dead before he got the other 30 odd? That makes everything OK because "we got the bast@rd good? We shot him down. God Bless the Second Amendment. We saved ourselves and wiped out a nut case in the process. Wow what a days work". What about the other two who were never saved by this good gun wielding citizen that just saved the day. Is it there fault for not having a gun stuck down there trousers while on their way to class just in case they needed to blow someone's brains out in the name of self protection?

That is actually a widely held attitude over there isn't it? Thank God we are about as far away as we can get down here. But that's OK, I'm sure most of you guys are glad we are too ;)

Thanks it's nice to know that people get killed in other countries too. If you listened to the media you would think it is a decidedly American condition.

That may have something to do with you living in the USA and being subject to your own media. Believe it or not we hear when people get killed down hear too. Unfortunately Matt you live in a country that is and will forever be under a lot of scrutiny. But that isn't entirely everyone else's fault either. You're the worlds most powerful country and a lot of good and bad things happen within it. And the world finds out about it.

But I will say, that the gun violence in your country is sen as quite an issue by others around the world.

Crazy Rabbit (http://www.changar.com/archives/go.html)

10mg | interactive (http://www.worldlingo.com/S1790.5/translation?wl_srclang=nl&wl_trglang=en&wl_url=http://www.10mg.nl/)


Click on these

What kind of stupid logic is that? Yet...that's the logic people use when they're hurting. They look for anyone to blame besides themselves. Let's blame rock'n'roll! Let's blame video games! Let's blame Hitler!

Let's blame religion! Let's blame God! Let's blame marbles (because marbles are DANGEROUS!)! Let's blame guns, drugs, sex, loose morals, Don Imus, nappy headed hos, the French influence, the IRS, the CIA, Kennedy and the Beatles!

(I'm a little wound up, I think)

But the idea is...teach your kids right from wrong. Teach them that life isn't fair. Teach them that you won't always get your way in any sphere of life, but especially in the area of "love". Teach them that the world does not revolve around them, and that while they're special, they're not special enough to get on the team just because they want it.

I'm just tired of everyone wanting everything to be fair. Life isn't fair.

Synnen, you are running for President next year, right? I hope so. ;)
But anyway, I completely agree with what you have said in this discussion, especially this part. Growing up, my parents allowed my siblings and me to play whatever video games and didn't control too much of what we watched on TV (which wasn't that much anyways). I have seen people "kill" people in movies. I have "killed" people in video games. But I have never had the urge to buy and gun and shoot someone. My parents never told me directly, "Don't shoot people" but they did teach me how to control my emotions and find better options. That's the biggest problem I think America is conflicted with.
As a preschool teacher, I have seen parents that would just as well leave their kids at daycare/school until its time for bed if it was allowed. I have seen parents trying to medicate their children because they might have ADD. When in fact, their child is completely normal... kids are naturally hyper and some parents just can seem to handle redirecting this energy into something positive. I have seen parents that just sit their children in front of a TV all weekend and do nothing constructive with them. I have seen parents buy football tickets and manicures, but their child's shoes are too small. I just think a lot (but not all) of parents try to make parenting as easy as possible, when its not supposed to be. Maybe if more parents stepped up to the job that they themselves have chosen, and try to have more meaningful relationships with their children, so many teens wouldn't feel their only option is suicide or taking a gun to school.
Just my opinion.

Ashley---I'm not old enough to be president yet. Maybe in 2012 if the US gets rid of the 2 party system (I'm not holding my breath on that). You are soooooo right about the whole idea that parents just don't parent thing. I've seen so many parents that just can't be bothered, and it drives me NUTS.

Skell... you realize that the reason the 2nd Amendment is in our Constitution so that if we ever need to overthrow our government (and that day is coming---oh yes) we have the ability to get weapons to do so?

I absolutely do not want the only people in this country able to carry a weapon be the criminals and the cops. That whole idea scares the hell out of me. I have a weapon, I know how to use it---I've never even shot an ANIMAL with it, much less a person. So... having a gun is bad, huh? I think it's having crazy people that's bad. Maybe we should send them all to Australia where they can't get guns! Australia has a huge history of criminals being deported there, and since you already seem to know how to handle them... (you know I'm just playing devil's advocate here, I hope)

Hi one and all.

I don't blink an eye at the fact that someone owns a gun and has it in there home. I think it's a personal decsion.

For me, I don't want it anywhere near my house. I am so very afraid of having one in my home. I just don't like them. But that's for me and my home. I feel safer without it there.
If that makes any sense. Probably not.

I do ask though, why is it necessary? If there were stricter controls - would people still want them in their home.

I guess I just don't understand the need or desire for having one. If just law enforcemet was allowed to carry them, that would be more than okay with me.

But I do respect that my neighbors have that choice and would never try and convince them otherwise, as long as it stays out of my home. Gives me chills and not in a good way.

I often wonder how many of these guns actually come in handy during a home invasion. Hubby peridoically will bring up the fact that he wants one. That's nice... NOPE! So he just had to settle for a tattoo ( no there is not a connection). Anyway - NO. I would say to him, okay great, someone is breaking in the house... what are we going to do, ask the intruder, "Hang on a minute, let me get my gun that I have safely tucked away just in case you decided to break in my home, I'll be right back, wait there.

Sorry, not trying to be sarcastic, but having a gun in my home, scares me more than not having one.

I want us all to be safe, I want us all to have choices, hopefully someday we can have both.

Sort of talking out what we feel is wrong with this world - .

What's wrong with this world is that I'm not rich ;)

What's wrong with this world is that I'm not rich ;)


LOL - and I have to work :( :p

And no one recognizes me for the beauty queen that I am! I should be on magazine covers, dang it!

And no one recognizes me for the beauty queen that I am! I should be on magazine covers, dang it!


Girl?! Magazine covers... Darling - you oughta be in movies :) :D
Heck you!

Nah... movies is too much having to be someone else.

I want people to love me for me!

Nah...movies is too much having to be someone else.

I want people to love me for me!


Awwww right you are there Synnen.

Psst... Allheart... you don't need guns in YOUR house.

You have a heck of a skillet, and you know how to use it!

Did you read that article magprob or just post it based on its title? It said that gin killings are rare. Gun killings in America where everyone has them are far from rare. Our infantile approach of gun control certainly seems to keep the kids in our country safer than those in yours. I'm quite happy to forgo my right to bear arms for that cause.

So let me get it clear. You're saying that if you lose your right to bear arms you become easier for your Government to control? I have heard that train of thinking before. Hard to see the logice in it, but i also find it hard to see the logic in wanting to carry a gun.

I really can't believe that you and others think the answer is for everyone to have guns to protect themselves with. It really is like a John Wayne movie isnt it, pilgrim. :)

So everything would be rosy if at the time someone else on campus with a semi automatic had of got to this lunatic first and shot him dead before he got the other 30 odd? That makes everything ok because "we got the bast@rd good? We shot him down. God Bless the Second Amendment. We saved ourselves and wiped out a nut case in the process. Wow what a days work". What about the other two who were never saved by this good gun wielding citizen that just saved the day. Is it there fault for not having a gun stuck down there trousers while on their way to class just in case they needed to blow someones brains out in the name of self protection?

That is actually a widely held attitude over there isn't it? Thank God we are about as far away as we can get down here. But thats ok, i'm sure most of you guys are glad we are too ;)

Because I own handguns and shoot for sport. If people were dying from throwing shrimp on the barbie, would it be right for them to take your barbie? You believe because of the stupid actions of a very few, the majority must suffer. The majority must rule. I've heard this line of thinking before.

Hello again:

The discussion is too broad because it takes in everybody. Allheart with her fryingpan and the magdude with his .22.

I can't decide for you how to keep your family safe. I can only make those decisions for myself. I don't know who would or wouldn't be safer with a gun. I do know that I'd be safer with a gun, and I'm glad I live in a country that allows me to have one (my name notwithstanding).

excon

PS> I know the magdude is going to tell me his gun is bigger than that. Yeah, right...

Because I own handguns and shoot for sport. If people were dying from throwing shrimp on the barbie, would it be right for them to take your barbie? You believe because of the stupid actions of a very few, the majority must suffer. The majority must rule. I've heard this line of thinking before.


No, but maybe the shrimp :confused:

I don't know what the answer is - but I do not wish to force my view of guns on anyone else, but I sure would feel a whole lot safer knowing guns were not so easily accessible.

Now I ask to learn - so have some patience.

To shoot for sport - Could not someone go and check in to where the shoot - pick up there gun at the site where they shoot - and when they are done - return the gun back where it will be safely locked away until you come back again? Kind of like going to a roller rink and renting skates. Okay, now don't throw any shrimp at me, I am just asking... to learn... K ?

Now I ask to learn - so have some patience.Hello again:

Patience?? We ain't got no stinkin patience... Just kidding. I have lots of patience for you.

Here's the thing. You ask a very good question. It's a question that's been asked before, but they put drugs in the place of guns.

They asked: If we just made it illegal to sell drugs, that would work, wouldn't it? I say no. What if we put drug dealers in jail for a long time, that would work, wouldn't it? No. If we gave them the death penalty for some drug crimes, that would work, wouldn't it? No.

It SHOULD work - it really should. In fact, to some, they don't understand WHY it doesn't work. They think, well if we REALLY cracked down...

If we made guns illegal, it should work. It really should. And, in an ideal world, it would. But in the real world, it doesn't. Our lawmakers should pay attention to the way the world IS, not the way they would like it to be. You know, the Emperor and his clothes and all that stuff.

excon

My family is one of hunters. We own land in northern Wisconsin and Upper Michigan. I learned how to shoot a rifle and care for it when I was about 12 years old from my dad. I also learned a LOT of rules from my dad about how to handle a weapon, and what it should and should not be used for. I think every kid in my family goes through it.

How would they possibly check in and out weapons for hunting? And with whom? THOUSANDS of people go deer hunting up here in November... can you imagine the DNR trying to hand out guns and hunting licenses?

Plus... some of those guns have been in my family for 4-5 generations. My dad goes hunting with a muzzle-loader (in season, of course, and with a license).

Once again, it comes back to responsibility. If people taught their kids respect for others lives, and for the lives of animals, and for the law, would we really have this problem?

The problem is not guns. The problem is people. Since there are some people who use guns for the wrong reasons, and we can't get rid of all the people, the logic becomes "let's get rid of all of the guns" To me, that's as silly as saying "people are stabbed every day! Let's get rid of knives!" or "fire kills people AND destroys property! Let's get rid of fire!" or "People who use automobiles in a harmful way (like drinking and driving) kill many innocent people every year! Let's get rid of cars!"

Making guns illegal will put the guns only in the hands of criminals. Plus, it will make me a criminal, because I'll be damned if I'm giving mine up. I want to be able to fight with something other than sticks and stones when we have to overthrow our government.

Allheart, I'm not mocking you, honey. I'm trying to show you that checking guns in and out just wouldn't work.

excon *** thanks***

And it really does make sense the way you spell it out. Deal with the world the way it is... not the way we would like it to be.

Thanks again excon - pretty good for NOT drinking the koolaid :)

It really does make sense though - the way you spelled it out.

to kill our right to bare arms.

I don't know ANYONE who is trying to kill our right to "bare arms". I wear shortsleeve shirts all the time, I see plenty of men and women in short or sleeveless tops. No one complains or protests. :D

The vast majority of gun control advocates are NOT about inhibiting the (alleged) right to "bear arms". They, like me, just want to limit the ability to obtain arms. That the VT shooter was able to just walk into a store and walk out with a handgun is ridiculous and unconscionable. If the gun lobby would work towards reasonable controls that might help prevent a situation like this rather then trying to stop ANY attempt at reasonable controls, they would be doing the country a service and helping to preserve the rights they hold so dear.

Like I said before, I have a gun in my home. I really don't even think about it though. But, when I first got married, I had never lived on my own and my husband traveled a lot. So I was left alone in a new city. The fact that it was there - in it's case - beside my bed - some how made me feel safer. Now our gun and ammo are in two different cases and I can never remember if the red dot on the safety means Fire or Stop.

I think it is a personal choice. Could I actually shoot someone? I don't know. If they were heading toward my daughter's room - probably. If they were beating my husband - probably. And this is assuming that I would be cool and calm under this crazy circumstance.

For me and my family - I am glad I have the choice to have a gun. If guns aren't for you - then you have the choice not to have one.

They were saying on a show today that in VA you can only buy one gun a month. How many are to many? I mean - if you are a collector.. Or an average joe. How many is to many?
My house only needs one. But that is me.

Man, there really are some deep, intelligent people here! I guess all I am saying is don't punish me because of some poor mentally disturbed soul that went off and killed 32 people. Don't group me or profile me in with that! Don't punish the auto industry because more people die in car crashes than gun shots. In the human condition, there are no easy answers. When more good guys than bad guys have guns, the good guys usually win. That's just they way the world works. excon hit it right on, the way the world is, not the way someone wishes it to be.

At gun ranges, you can use the guns they have there. Check one out - use it then check it back in when you are done.
Hunters is a whole other story. And there are hunters that actually eat what they kill. Some don't even go to the market to buy meat. They ONLY eat what they kill. What impact would it have on them if you were to take their guns away.
Bow season would be busy.

I don't know ANYONE who is trying to kill our right to "bare arms". I wear shortsleeve shirts all the time, I see plenty of men and women in short or sleeveless tops. No one complains or protests. :D

The vast majority of gun control advocates are NOT about inhibiting the (alleged) right to "bear arms". They, like me, just want to limit the ability to obtain arms. That the VT shooter was able to just walk into a store and walk out with a handgun is ridiculous and unconscionable. If the gun lobby would work towards reasonable controls that might help prevent a situation like this rather then trying to stop ANY attempt at reasonable controls, they would be doing the country a service and helping to preserve the rights they hold so dear.

So, would the gun shop owner do a psychological test on person wanting to buy a gun? Will psychologist be the only ones allowed to sell guns? Or is it really just the best place to kill the right to bear arms, cut it off at the source?
BTW, I don't care what you bare, I just want you to know that naked clowns really, really scare me! :eek: :D

Hello again:

For what it's worth, the newly elected DEMOCRATIC senator from that very state, Va, who is very ANTIWAR, who has a son in Iraq, packs a very large gun. He got busted with it at the capitol (at least his aid did).

excon

So, would the gun shop owner do a psychological test on person wanting to buy a gun? Will psychologist be the only ones allowed to sell guns? Or is it really just the best place to kill the right to bear arms, cut it off at the source?


See that illustrates my point. You try to turn reasonable controls into an attempt to take away your rights.

Lets try this scenario. The kid walks into a store and fills out an application to purchase a gun. The store owner tells him to come back in 2 weeks. He then posts the application to a database. Now the school counselor was told by the shooter's English teacher that he needs counseling. The counselor institutes a tickler file that finds out he has applied for a handgun purchase. This sets off red flags and the kid is brought in for some heavy counseling. Maybe that counseling helps and the kid learns to channel his anger and he's alive today along with 31 other people.

But if his application doesn't set off any alarms, he comes back in 2 weeks and walks out with his handgun.

So the legitimate gun buyer can still get his weapon fix, but maybe (I think probably) the tragedy is avoided. This is what I mean by REASONABLE controls. But you don't want that. You see ANY attempt at reasonable controls an attack on your rights, rather than the protection of other people's rights that it truly is.

I want to be able to fight with something other than sticks and stones when we have to overthrow our government.
There may be some persuasive reasons for allowing guns to be widely available, but the ability to overthrow the Government is definitely not one of them. Synn honey, if you think that citizens with handguns, rifles, and shotguns are going to prevail against the military in all its gory (not a misspelling), you need to rethink your revolutionary strategy.

If there were to be added regulations to gun laws - what would you find acceptable?
I mean, after 9/11 - the security at airports has really gotten intense. Rightfully so. I don't mind waiting in the long lines, taking my shoes off and showing my ticket and i.d. a hundred times. If it means I am going to arrive to my destination safely - without the harm of a bomb or terrorist. So, if we are inconvienced a little with a waiting period, background check, etc. Wouldn't it be worth it? If our intentions are honorable? The government knows pretty much everything about every one of us - why not have a system that could check for mental instabilty?
Most of the time - those making the news like this - aren't the ones who have owned guns for years - they just picked theirs up recently.
Personally, I don't mind a little inconvience if it means that I will be safer and my family will be safer.

Because I own handguns and shoot for sport. If people were dying from throwing shrimp on the barbie, would it be right for them to take your barbie? You believe because of the stupid actions of a very few, the majority must suffer. The majority must rule. I've heard this line of thinking before.

I haven't the slightest problem with you owning guns for sport. In fact I think that is great. Any type of sport is great. Shooting is actually quite a sport down here. But I think owning a gun for sport and owning a gun for protection are two entirely different things. Unless your gun sport is picking off the neighbors kids when they get a bit too noisy playing BBQ. Why can't you keep your gun at the location where you carry out the sport? Why do you need it in your pocket or under your pillow?

We don't eat shrimp in Australia Mag. We call them prawns. That was just a sickening advertising campaign aimed at getting more of you guys to come here for holidays. It worked too!!

I haven't the slightest problem with you owning hand guns for sport. In fact i think that is great. Any type of sport is great. Shooting is actually quite a sport down here. But i think owning a gun for sport and owning a gun for protection are two entirely different things. Unless your gun sport is picking off the neighbors kids when they get a bit too noisy playing BBQ. Why can't you keep your gun at the location where you carry out the sport? Why do you need it in your pocket or under your pillow?

We don't eat shrimp in Australia Mag. We call them prawns. That was just a sickening advertising campaign aimed at getting more of you guys to come here for holidays. It worked too!!!

Skell - I agree 100%. Why do people need it under the pillow?

And what the heck is a prawn?? :)

No, but maybe the shrimp :confused:

I don't know what the answer is - but I do not wish to force my view of guns on anyone else, but I sure would feel a whole lot safer knowing guns were not so easily accessible.

Now I ask to learn - so have some patience.

To shoot for sport - Could not someone go and check in to where the shoot - pick up there gun at the site where they shoot - and when they are done - return the gun back where it will be safely locked away until you come back again? Kinda like going to a roller rink and renting skates. Okay, now don't throw any shrimp at me, I am just asking....to learn....K ?

Yes they can Allheart. At least down here they can.

Sport shooting and self protection are two completely different issues.

Skell - Do some use it for self protection in Australia?

Skell - I agree 100%. Why do people need it under the pillow?

And what the heck is a prawn??? :)

Not to put it down, but do you know this is actually a event in competitive shooting. The contestant lays down and is timed on how fast he gets up gets his gun an acquires the target. I can't remember what it's called right now though.

Skell - Do some use it for self protection in Australia?


Yes do tell? Nice pic by the way. And what's the diff between owning a gun for sport and protection does that mean you can't use one for the other.

I don't know ANYONE who is trying to kill our right to "bare arms". I wear shortsleeve shirts all the time, I see plenty of men and women in short or sleeveless tops. No one complains or protests. :D

The vast majority of gun control advocates are NOT about inhibiting the (alleged) right to "bear arms". They, like me, just want to limit the ability to obtain arms. That the VT shooter was able to just walk into a store and walk out with a handgun is ridiculous and unconscionable. If the gun lobby would work towards reasonable controls that might help prevent a situation like this rather then trying to stop ANY attempt at reasonable controls, they would be doing the country a service and helping to preserve the rights they hold so dear.

Agree hold heartedly. It isn't about banning them all together. It is about restricting those who can get hold of them.

It is the same with you Synnen. I have no doubt you are a responsible gun owner and user. And I would never want to take hunters guns away from them. Hunting is a part of life here as well. Once again that isn't the issue. The issue is the freedom of being able to walk down the street with one in your handbag. Why I ask? That isn't hunting. That isn't sport. That just leads to what we seen happen in Virginia.

It isn't gun eradication, it is gun control. Two different words.

And can I ask Synnen? Is it really believed that because you have guns and the right to bear them that it will enable you to take part in some hostile take over of your government. Is that really a possibility in the USA? Perhaps it was the case when that law was written but surely not today??

There may be some persuasive reasons for allowing guns to be widely available, but the ability to overthrow the Government is definitely not one of them. Synn honey, if you think that citizens with handguns, rifles, and shotguns are going to prevail against the military in all its gory (not a misspelling), you need to rethink your revolutionary strategy.

Thank you for saying that OG. I have heard that argument before and I would be lying if id said is didn't have more than just a snigger when I heard it. I mean come on, that is a pretty crazy notion to believe!

Skell - Do some use it for self protection in Australia?

Not legally.

Put it this way, I'm 24 and I have never laid eyes on a gun other than on a policeman's hip and my dads old pee pee shooter that he handed back when everyone else handed in their guns in the 90's. I do not know anyone that owns one other than farmers who own them legally and strictly for hunting and pest control. Wanting a gun so you keep in your closet at home in case a bad guy comes in is not a valid reason for issuing a license.

Im not saying we don't have them. And I'm not saying people don't get shot by people who shouldn't have them. There are bad guys that have them and do bad things with them. But me having a gun is not going to change that is it?? G

Gun ownership here is not something that we crave. It isn't something that we hold so dear to us that we feel our rights have been taken away because we don't have the right to bear arms.

There was a day in the 90's when that was the case. But it took the worst shooting spree killing in the history of the world to change all that. Yes there as an uproar by some but at the end of the day people just let it go. And no one would want it to go back to how it was. And it has made a difference.

And what the heck is a prawn??? :)

A prawn is like a shrimp.

Prawn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prawn)

A favorite type of seafood down here. They are magnificent eating.

Yes do tell? Nice pic by the way. And whats the diff between owning a gun for sport and protection does that mean you can't use one for the other.

Yes!

A prawn is like a shrimp.

Prawn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prawn)

A favorite type of seafood down here. They are magnificent eating.

Oh God Skell - thanks for the info. But they look like little pets... oh sorry.

I am sure they are good. How's the beer there LOL :)

Not when they are cooked Allheart.

The beer is even better. Nice and cold. Not like our English friends who drink warm beers and cold meet pies :) Weird...

Not when they are cooked Allheart.

The beer is even better. Nice and cold. Not like our English friends who drink warm beers and cold meet pies :) Weird......


Then would it be okay if I requested a cold beer - but hold the prawn :o

I didn't know the English drank warm beer? Never knew that.

That's fine Allheart but you don't know what your missing out on. Ill even peel it for you.

They do all sorts of crazy things over there Allheart. Warm beer is just the start of it. ;)

Thats fine Allheart but you dont know what your missing out on. Ill even peel it for you.


Then you have a deal!!

And warm beer is only the start :eek: :D ( I'm all brave now cause I know they are all sound asleep now having sweet dreams... hee hee )

Oh lord.

No... I *don't* think that we'd win against the government. The Homesteaders (or whatever the heck they were called) in Wyoming and the Branch Davidians in Texas are GREAT examples of uprisings (or the beginnings thereof) against the government that were smashed like bugs on a windshield.

The problem is... the people that are going to kill, are probably going to kill anyway. Would guns being harder to get REALLY have stopped someone who was obviously a bit off their rocker like the shooter in VA? Probably not. It would have been a homemade bomb (which at a tech school, I'm SURE they knew how to make. Hell, I learned how to make one in high school!), or some sort of chemical or *gasp* heaven forfend---an ILLEGAL WEAPON! Because we all know that THAT never happens!

I have no problem with gun controls... depending on how they're enforced.

Let me ask this, because I honestly don't know the answer: In Australia (or other places with strict gun control) is there or has there been the problems with crooked police? Or, which is more likely, police who stand by each other even when one of them is breaking the law? Do you have issues like Rodney King there? Do you trust your law enforcement completely, to give them basically ALL of the weapons in your country?

I'm asking because (obviously) I don't trust MY law enforcement to be on my side. I don't think that the vast majority of them are bad people. I think that I can't possibly understand the brotherhood that develops between officers of the law, because they lay their lives on the line to keep us safe daily. I respect that, and I respect the people willing to do it.

But I don't trust them. I've heard too many stories about grudges, and the good ol' boys club, and bribes, and the feeling of helplessness the law has against fighting an uphill battle with the courts (the police arrest them, and the courts let them walk sort of story).

No... I don't think that I need a gun to fight in an uprising against my government. The government is already destroying itself from the inside. And as far as protection goes... a good alarm and a large dog are better protection than a gun most of the time anyway.

Oh lord.

No...I *don't* think that we'd win against the government. The Homesteaders (or whatever the heck they were called) in Wyoming and the Branch Davidians in Texas are GREAT examples of uprisings (or the beginnings thereof) against the government that were smashed like bugs on a windshield.

The problem is...the people that are going to kill, are probably going to kill anyway. Would guns being harder to get REALLY have stopped someone who was obviously a bit off their rocker like the shooter in VA? Probably not. It would have been a homemade bomb (which at a tech school, I'm SURE they knew how to make. hell, I learned how to make one in high school!), or some sort of chemical or *gasp* heaven forfend---an ILLEGAL WEAPON!! Because we all know that THAT never happens!

I have no problem with gun controls....depending on how they're enforced.

Hi Synnen,

Yes I will agree to an extent that people that are going to kill will if they have to find a way to kill regardless. However, I feel that making it harder than it is at present for a gun to be placed in a killers hand is surely worth looking at. There has to be ways of making it harder to for lunatics such as this to get guns than it currently is. The current system is clearly not working.

Would gun control have really stopped this person from doing what he did? Maybe not. But it might have. No gun control laws whatsoever definitely didn't.


Let me ask this, because I honestly don't know the answer: In Australia (or other places with strict gun control) is there or has there been the problems with crooked police? Or, which is more likely, police who stand by each other even when one of them is breaking the law? Do you have issues like Rodney King there? Do you trust your law enforcement completely, to give them basically ALL of the weapons in your country?

I'm asking because (obviously) I don't trust MY law enforcement to be on my side. I don't think that the vast majority of them are bad people. I think that I can't possibly understand the brotherhood that develops between officers of the law, because they lay their lives on the line to keep us safe daily. I respect that, and I respect the people willing to do it.

But I don't trust them. I've heard too many stories about grudges, and the good ol' boys club, and bribes, and the feeling of helplessness the law has against fighting an uphill battle with the courts (the police arrest them, and the courts let them walk sort of story).

No...I don't think that I need a gun to fight in an uprising against my government. The government is already destroying itself from the inside. And as far as protection goes...a good alarm and a large dog are better protection than a gun most of the time anyway.

My answer to your above questions would be YES. Yes I do have enough trust in my police force and military to let them have control of our weapons. And I can say that with supreme confidence and without nativity. And I think 99% of the population would agree with me.

That's not to say that we don't have crooked police and Bureaucrats. Of course we do. Always have and always will. But as you say overall they do a good job and are to be respected.

But please explain to me because I think I am missing the point, but how on earth does you and other having a gun prevent this from happening or even help you if it ever does happen? I really don't understand. If you have crooked police and ol' boys clubs that stick together how does you having a gun change that. How does it protect you? If you get into a bit of trouble with an untrustworthy and crooked cop is your gun going to save you. I would argue that it would get you in more trouble.

And the same goes for if you come across a civilian that is causing you similar problems. What is your gun going to do? They are going to have one as well under the current laws so you have a 50% chance of not getting shot in some ways. Wouldn't it be better if they didn't have a gun, you didn't have a gun and no one got shot?

Its sad that you can't trust your police force. Really it is and I hope I never get to that point. But I understand that there must be mitigating circumstances as to why. I still just struggle to comprehend though how gun ownership fixes any of this.

Okay, at the advice of , RubyPitbull I have started a new thread. A new discussion.

Sort of talking out what we feel is wrong with this world - or our country. What we can do to fix it or make it better.

What tops your list as the most important issue?

There are lots to choose from

How we handle our criminals - is it fair or right that a non violent criminal gets 20 years for not paying his taxes and the guy he shares his cell with killed a child, but will get out in 7 with good behavior? Am I the only one that finds that disturbing?
(I guess that is what gets me going)

Or how about the war? How much longer do our guys have to fight and die? When can they come home? What is the war really about anyway?

What makes you angry? How would you change it if you could?

So here is my post - I hope you find it thought provoking.
Personally Global warming is my largest worldly concern at the moment. Are people so thick as to not forsee what is the coming consequences of our behaviour. We need to unite as one and conteract this problem by just turning off that lightswitch or switching off the TV at the powerpoint when we not using it. Why does it have to become so complicated. Don't be lazy.. Prove the government wrong when they say we are all lazy, fat and obese. Just get up and do it!

Skell

It's not so much that I think that owning a gun would help me. I do, however, think that the fact that the ordinary citizen can own a gun DOES stop it from being worse than it is. And, as I say, I'm paranoid... I fully believe that our government is heading for collapse.

The big thing, for me, is that the government already controls too much here. I don't think people are REALLY so stupid that they need the government to hold their hands on everything. Wait... actually, people probably ARE that stupid.

As it is... our freedom of speech is being threatened by people who don't know when the hell to shut up.

Our right to bear arms is being threatened by people who hold a grudge against the world because somehow or another, they didn't get what they thought they were "entitled" to.

I hate the idea that the parents of the students who died so tragically this week will sue the school for not locking down campus, even though it was the best decision they could make with the information that they had. I hate even more that they'll probably win.

I'm all for gun control... please don't get me wrong. It SHOULD be harder to purchase a weapon than it is. The problem that I have... and I'm sure it's the problem others have as well, is that once you start putting in controls, you're on a slippery slope. Our government has a habit of doing things to propagate it's own power, whether it's for the good of the people.

I'm probably getting incoherent at this point, as it's midnight and I should be in bed.

I want you all to know, though, that I'm really enjoying this conversation, and hope that my arguments are taken in that spirit, and not as a personal attack against anyone's opinion. I've had a few lightbulbs go off over my head over the last few days, and have really done a lot of thinking about what people have posted.

The problem is...the people that are going to kill, are probably going to kill anyway. Would guns being harder to get REALLY have stopped someone who was obviously a bit off their rocker like the shooter in VA? Probably not. It would have been a homemade bomb (which at a tech school, I'm SURE they knew how to make. hell, I learned how to make one in high school!), or some sort of chemical or *gasp* heaven forfend---an ILLEGAL WEAPON!! Because we all know that THAT never happens!


Please see my reply (to Magprod) earlier in this thread. I DO believe that the lax gun laws in VA contributed significantly to this event. This tragedy was very preventable.

But please explain to me because i think i am missing the point, but how on earth does you and other having a gun prevent this from happening or even help you if it ever does happen? Hello Skell:

Do you see how the insurgents in Iraq can stymie the most powerful military force in the world? They do it with small arms and very little organization. That could happen here.

The time to get a gun, is when they want you to give yours up.

excon

Please see my reply (to Magprod) earlier in this thread. I DO believe that the lax gun laws in VA contributed significantly to this event. This tragedy was very preventable.


I agree with Scott on this. More stringent gun control laws are needed. Would it have prevented the Virginia Tech tragedy? Maybe, maybe not. But the waiting period might have given the police, the university, and his family more time to help this young man. I am not saying it would have. I am saying it MIGHT have.

I agree with Scott on this. More stringent gun control laws are needed. Would it have prevented the Virginia Tech tragedy? Maybe, maybe not. But the waiting period might have given the police, the university, and his family more time to help this young man. I am not saying it would have. I am saying it MIGHT have.

Exactly! That possibility is well worth asking legitimate gun purchasers to undergo some inconvenience before be allowed to pick up their weaponry.

I totally agree, Scott, if your intentions are honorable - would the waiting period or "inconvenience" even be an issue?

I don't have a problem with a waiting period, nor do I have a problem denying a handgun to a felon.

Like I said... my problem is that it's a slippery slope. If today there's a waiting period and felons are denied (which is PERFECTLY reasonable--that SHOULD happen) then who is denied tomorrow? And even though there would be a waiting period, I don't think that would have stopped the shooter in VA, just delayed him. His background check came back clean.

So... then you add psychological profiling to getting a weapon. Well, guess what? That would probably deny me and half of the country a gun. I was committed to the psych ward at one point in my life. THEN you start adding anyone on mood altering medication, like anti-depressants.

Notice that if each previous idea were accepted, the next in line would seem reasonable in its turn. What I am afraid of is that eventually only criminals and cops will have weapons. I would never use my gun on a person. I don't think I would even be able to use it to threaten someone (I was taught that you don't point a gun at anything you're not willing to shoot). I do, however, agree with excon on this completely: the fact that they want me to give it up is the reason I don't want to.

Like I said...my problem is that it's a slippery slope. If today there's a waiting period and felons are denied (which is PERFECTLY reasonable--that SHOULD happen) then who is denied tomorrow? And even though there would be a waiting period, I don't think that would have stopped the shooter in VA, just delayed him. His background check came back clean.



This is the 'give them an inch they take a mile' argument that gun rights people use to prevent any gun control legistaltion.

Should anyone with a history of mental health problems be allowed to own a gun? In my opinion, there has to be a line drawn. If, in the opinion of a compentent analyst, the person has the potential for violence, clearly indicated in the VT shooter's case, then no, I don't think they should be allowed to own a gun.

However, even if he had been allowed to purchase the gun, if the college counselors were made aware of the fact that he was purchasing weapons, I think they would have done something more to help him, possibly avoiding this tragedy.

I agree with Scott again.

If by not allowing people with mental illness (who trained professionals feel could hurt themselves or others) to own guns will keep our society safer I say go for it. And I am a gun owner.

Hello again:

Let me ask you this, Mr. Tuscany gun owner, dude. Would you like YOUR mental health to be judged by some bureaucrat appointed by GW? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I saw that about the "trained professional", but it's going to be a bureaucrat who is the ultimate "decider".

excon

Wow Excon.
First off I am not a gun owner dude nor am I a Mr. I am a woman a Mrs. who enjoys hunting and skeet shooting. All of which I would give up if it meant that my students, my family, and my community were safe. Do I think I should have to give it up. No. But do I think guns should not be in the hands of people that could hurt someone, or themselves or have a history of violent crime.

Thanks for generalizing me though. Own a gun... must be a man. Outstanding

Tuscany - LOL

I do agree with you Tuscany - dudess (is that the female equivalent of dude :) ?
As far as tighter restrictions on guns.

Excon - I agree with you as well - who is to judge who is mentally stable enough to own, and who is not.

Are we all not one bang in the head or one tramatic event away from - "not being of our right mind".

I honestly don't get this owning a gun thing. I have never heard something happen and then someone say... yes, thankfully they owned a gun. I just hear much more negative than I ever hear positive. But I think it is more so the fact that those of you that do own, do not wish that "right" taken away?

Before you all get upset at me, I would never want your rights taken away. I never want to convice anyone that my thinking on anything is the right way.

I still don't get what you all get out of owning one. I am started to feel bad for hubby as I am adamant no guns in the home. But thankfully he has not brought it up for awhile.

I say make the regulations as tight as possible, for all of our safety.

For me and my husband, owning one gives us - if nothing else - the illusion of safety.

I have heard stories where it was a good thing that this man had a gun with him - it saved his life. He was being robbed at gun point and he - being a card carrying member of the NRA had a gun also. When a moment of hesitation came up - he took his chance - turned and shot the criminal right between the eyes. Although, not before the guy shot him in the arm. But, having a gun with him that day saved his life.
Does that happen a lot - probably not.
Moral of the story... I have no idea.

Allheart.
I like how you put the one bang in the head or tramativ event away from -Not being in our right mind.

I agree with that statement 100%.

I am a gun owning WOMAN, but I use my guns as a form of recreation, not for protection. I have a gun cabniet that is always locked, the key is in another part of the house in a safe that is always locked. And the ammo is in yet another location, also always locked. That is the only way I would ever allow guns in my home. We have far to many children running around (and we don't even have kids yet) to have guns out. I guess I have gun control in my own home.

Unfortunately that does not happen in all homes. Which is why I agree with you Allheart, regulations need to be as tight as possible.

Allheart, it's dudette.

I think when it comes to issues such as these - there aren't people in our government that are middle of the road. They either are for guns or they aren't. And that is where the water gets muddy.
You have two sides going at it and nothing gets accomplished. Will the people that want our gun rights ever concede that regulations need to be tightened? Will the people that want our rights taken away ever agree to a compromise?
Will anything ever get done? Will these people not see the forest because of the trees?

Allheart, it's dudette.


*****************************************

Thanks Cap - LROL ( Laugh really out loud :)

Tuscany - oh my I'm sorry... oh my "bang" in the head. What I meant was, if we bump our head. The probability of one keeping there senses the same is quite high from the time they are approved for a gun, but there is no lifetime guarantee that there is NO possibility that the once sane person, well, may, through no fault of their own, have something happen, and mentally unwind. Oh I don't know.

I want you all to have your hobbies and your feeling a safety -

I really don't know what the answer is, but one thing for sure each end of the spectrum needs to meet in the middle somewhere, just for all of our own good.

*****************************************

Tuscany - oh my I'm sorry...oh my "bang" in the head

I want you all to have your hobbies and your feeling a safety -

I


I did not even thing about the bang thing. Oops :)


I don't know if I feel safe, my home has been robbed, my husband has been mugged. But I do know that I take all the necessary precautions to maintain safety in my home. My guns and ammo were in my house when we were robbed. They could not get into the safe to get the guns, and they never found the ammo. So, I guess the gunsafe is doing the trick.

Tuscany -

I am so sorry to hear that. That had to be awful.

Glad it all worked out and it sounds like you couldn't have any more safety precautions in place than you already do.

I actually came home and found the guy in my house... it was kind of a frightening day.
But, I learned a lot from it.
And they got the bad guy!
I was happy that there was closure.

I don't want to take the focus off gun control - because I think it is a great discussion. But, I need to vent right now.
The topic of sex offenders has come up on this discussion. I just found out that a there are actually FOUR offenders and one predator within a mile of my home. I knew some were in the area - just not that close. That really isn't what I want to vent about. One of these guys is my neighbor's nephew. His record dates back 2 years ago. They never told us. My daughter has been over to play with their son when this guy was over their. Am I over reacting here to think that they SHOULD have given us a head's up. I, obviously, haven't checked the list in a while and heard about this guy through my daughter's 1st grade teacher. When I got home to check it out - there he was. I was shocked. They tell us everything else. When it comes to the safety of the kids playing at their house or in the yard - shouldn't we know. And what is worse - his offense was against a child!
Like I said, I am venting. I feel betrayed on a certain level. Yes, I am sure they were embarrassed - but like I said, they share everything else. I mean, I know stuff about them that is so private - I even say TMI! Please STOP sharing. But we share a drive way and our houses are pretty close- so it is hard to avoid letting our kids play together. It is inevitable that one of the two kids is going to end up in the other's yard before the day is up.
I am just sick to my stomach - I have unknowingly put my daughter in harms way. I try to make sure she is safe and right in the back yard a predator is waiting. AARGH!

Hello again, now:

Sex offenders make up, what 15% of the prison population?? And there's four living near you? That means, in all probability, you have a murderer or two on your street, along with several burglars, robbers, muggers, drug dealers and arsonists. Wouldn't you like to know where they all live?

At the rate they've been locking people up over the last decade, your neighborhood is riddled with exconvicts. You think you'll be safer if you know where the sex offenders live?? Snicker, snicker… If you really knew who was in your neighborhood, you'd move to an island.

excon

What level is he? Was he ever alone with your daughter and their son? Try to put yourself in their place for a moment.

I knew a kid who was on the sex offenders list. He was an 18 year old who had consensual sex with a 15 year old (who he believed was older). Her parents caught them and had a cow. And had him prosecuted to the full extent of the law. He spent 2 years in prison and is a listed sex offender. This kid is NOT a danger to anyone, least of all a 1st grade girl.

So before you go off the deep end and start laying guilt trips on yourself, I would suggest getting a fuller story. Its possible that your neighbor's nephew does not present a danger to your daughter. Its possible she was never in harm's way because they never left him out of their sight while she was there. Think what you would do if you had a nephew in that position.

Skell

It's not so much that I think that owning a gun would help me. I do, however, think that the fact that the ordinary citizen can own a gun DOES stop it from being worse than it is. And, as I say, I'm paranoid....I fully believe that our government is heading for collapse.

The big thing, for me, is that the government already controls too much here. I don't think people are REALLY so stupid that they need the government to hold their hands on everything. Wait...actually, people probably ARE that stupid.

As it is...our freedom of speech is being threatened by people who don't know when the hell to shut up.

Our right to bear arms is being threatened by people who hold a grudge against the world because somehow or another, they didn't get what they thought they were "entitled" to.

I hate the idea that the parents of the students who died so tragically this week will sue the school for not locking down campus, even though it was the best decision they could make with the information that they had. I hate even more that they'll probably win.

I'm all for gun control...please don't get me wrong. It SHOULD be harder to purchase a weapon than it is. The problem that I have...and I'm sure it's the problem others have as well, is that once you start putting in controls, you're on a slippery slope. Our government has a habit of doing things to propogate it's own power, whether or not it's for the good of the people.

I'm probably getting incoherent at this point, as it's midnight and I should be in bed.

I want you all to know, though, that I'm really enjoying this conversation, and hope that my arguments are taken in that spirit, and not as a personal attack against anyone's opinion. I've had a few lightbulbs go off over my head over the last few days, and have really done a lot of thinking about what people have posted.

I see your point completely Synnen and appreciate your concerns. I think your concerns are concerns that many have when any new law is passed. There will always be a group of people, whether it be the majority or minority, that are not happy about it. In this case it appears that it would be the majority. And it shouldn't be the minority that prevails. No way. But sometimes things are done that the majority don't approve of.

I also agree that your government control too much. I think ours does as well but perhaps to a lesser extent. I also think that you are subject to propaganda to a greater extent than you realise. Is it reasonable to assume that unless you actively seek it in the USA you get very very little, if any at all, news and current affairs about anywhere else in the world? Unless it is a major event like war, mass killings etc. In other words you don't really know what else is happening outside the USA because it isn't shown to you through your media outlets. Therefore all you know is all you have ever known? All you guys have known is the right to bear arms and that is all it should be. You aren't aware of other options, especially if politicians see them as unpopular options to the public opinion? It is sort of bred into you guys that the only way is the way it is now.

See down here we are fed news from all over the world. I can tell you current events taking place in the US. I can tell you what Hilary Clinton's latest policies are, I can tell you who won out of the Yankees and Red Sox, I can tell you what is happening in the UK, Germany, France etc. Where as my conversation with many Americans whilst traveling the world indicated to me that they don't really know anything outside of the cocoon they live in. I had to explain to a person from LA where Sydney was. A city that hosted the Olympic Games for pete's sake. He said he'd heard of it but never really had learnt too much about it.

Sorry to get off track but I think as you say, your governments overpower creates thinking amongst people that change is bad. And politicians are scared to change things in case people learn too much and start to form there own opinions. And that doesn't apply to everyone as just from being here at AMHD I can see that so many are highly intelligent people who know a whole lot about the world and its issues. I'm more talking the masses. It's the masses who just don't seem to know. And as we know it is the masses that will win out.

Im really enjoying this conversation too and I would never take anything to heart or as a personal attack. I would like to think the same would apply to everyone. I also get concerned that people see it as an exercise in American bashing because I am aware it does happen unjustly. This isn't the case here. It is more two different cultures (but also so alike) trying to understand each others views on somehting that are so vastly different (these days) in our respective countries.

I would like to hear what someone from the UK thinks about all this. There police don't even carry guns I don't think.

Hello Skell:

Do you see how the insurgents in Iraq can stymie the most powerful military force in the world? They do it with small arms and very little organization. That could happen here.

The time to get a gun, is when they want you to give yours up.

excon

Because they continue to let it happen. It suits their agenda.

Slightly different circumstances I think. In different country and terrain fighting an enemy unknown enemy. It has happened in previous wars as well.

I think though should civil war ever break out in the US (God forbid) there would only be one winner. And it wouldn't be the people carrying the handguns.

Not many people here own guns. I really don't think that that makes us any more vulnerable and subject to our Government, police and military power than you are in the US because you have guns. I really struggle to see the logic in what it offers you.

Now if they took your freedom of speech away, well there is another matter. But your right to bear arms, well I think it changes nothing int his day. When that law was written though, it would be a totally different story. I think it would have made a difference but that was along time ago and the world we live in today is very different, for good or for worse.

Skell,

Like Synnen I am so enjoying this discussion. To me, it's just like you have said, it is the sharing of different (and in some ways alike culture). In no way are you coming across as America bashing.

All of this is incredible insight and I actually thank you, as well as all the others, in not only sharing your view point but of your time as well.

At the rate they've been locking people up over the last decade, your neighborhood is riddled with exconvicts. You think you'll be safer if you know where the sex offenders live??? Snicker, snicker… If you really knew who was in your neighborhood, you'd move to an island.

excon

You should come live down under then. We are all ex-convicts. Or at least those of us with British backgrounds.

Sorry to make light of a serious topic.

It must be a concern Synnen as a parent and I feel for you. It would not be a nice thought. Can I ask does having your gun with you make you feel any better about this than you would if you didn't have it? Does having that gun there so you can shoot dead that old guy who talks to your daughters as he walks by the yard that you happen to think is a child molester make you feel more comfortable than if all you were armed with was your protective and guarding eye as a mother?? Just a question that interests me!

Not saying you would just shoot someone you were suspicious of but it sort of relates to the argument of having a gun as protection. When is a right time to use it? When is the threat either by a child molester or your government warrant you using your right to bear arms?

Skell,

Like Synnen I am so enjoying this discussion. To me, it's just like you have said, it is the sharing of different (and in some ways alike culture). In no way are you coming across as America bashing.

All of this is incredible insight and I actually thank you, as well as all the others, in not only sharing your view point but of your time as well.

Thanks Allheart. I'm glad that's how you feel. Would never want to offend you. Magprob on the other hand... ;)

See... the thing is, the ONLY situation that warrents using a handgun is protecting myself or someone else. And, unfortunately, the way things work here... if there were an intruder in my house, or attacking my family, etc--I'd be shooting to kill. When they live, they sue you and win.

I rely more on locks and doors and windows and the fact that I live on the second floor to keep me safe. I know that's not much.. but it's something.

The biggest problem in American isn't the guns... it's the fact that everyone feels entitled to the "good life", the life that's shown on TV and in the movies. Unfortunately, you have to work very hard and get very lucky to get that kind of life, most of the time. But... people feel like they have a right to happiness. They don't. They have a right to PURSUE happiness, but not at the expense of others, which is unfortunately what happens too often.

I'm addicted to this conversation, and keep checking it before I go to bed, when I'm too tired to put my thoughts down coherently :) If what I said doesn't make sense, I'll apologize now :)

Under your law would it be considered OK to shoot and kill an intruder in your home?

We can't still be on guns. I vote for a new topic. Hmm, how about?

What level is he? Was he ever alone with your daughter and their son? Try to put yourself in their place for a moment.

He has a gross imposition charge against a male child. I don't know what that means.
He has been around my daughter in the past. I don't know how much in the last two years though. I know that they have swam together in the neighbor's pool.
I know there are criminals everywhere. I get it. But, the reason I was "freaked out" was that it is really to close to home.
My husband is going to ask my neighbor about it today and get the story. I just think they should have told us before we found it on the offender list. I mean they tell us way too much of everything else.

And would I shot someone I was suspicous of? I don't honestly think I could take another person's life.
Now, if that person was creeping up my stairway heading to my kid's room - I think that might change.

And, I know that the town I live in has some issues. I found out about a meth. Drug ring. Little 15 year old girls doing sex acts to obtain this drug. Homes getting broken into to steal tools to pawn.
On the outside - it is a quiet, quaint village - but then there is a dark underbelly. It makes me glad I have my house on the market so I don't have to live here anymore. Will the next place be any better with the world we live in? I don't know. I hope.

I think that every town has its own dark little secrets. It does not matter where you live. This day in age drugs, robberies, and sex are everywhere. But, we have control over how we live our lives. I know in my quaint little town, we have those secrets. It is the way society is right now...

.

The biggest problem in American isn't the guns...it's the fact that everyone feels entitled to the "good life", the life that's shown on TV and in the movies. Unfortunately, you have to work very hard and get very lucky to get that kind of life, most of the time. But...people feel like they have a right to happiness. They don't. They have a right to PURSUE happiness, but not at the expense of others, which is unfortunately what happens too often.




There you have it people. That's it. BINGO Synnen. We in America are just too darn spoiled. We keep wanting more - and when we get more - we want more than that!!

That's it Synnen - you just exposed the root problem to this issue and so many that we experience here in this beautiful country.

Madam President Synnen - not sure we can afford to wait until you are of age - but it sure will be worth the wait.

Girl, you just hit the nail big time!

*blush*

See... I can't run for president. I don't have the money, the political background, and my OWN background would be strewn all over the world to knock me out of the running.

But I'm honored by the fact that I'd have YOUR vote, AH!

Well I'll be darn! Timing is everything they say. Seems Allheart stumbled upon this latest news story where an Armed Miss America, just may have saved her own life, because she had chosen to exercise her right to own a handgun. Hmmmm Allheart still incredibly leary of guns, but I could not help but share this with all of you and how about the timing of this news event, right as we are having this incredible discussion.

Armed Miss America 1944 Stops Intruder - washingtonpost.com (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/20/AR2007042001852.html)

It's funny, no matter how much I read your heartfelt stories about someone saving themselves because they owned a handgun it still doesn't make an effect on me. I guess I feel that violence begets violence. I am very happy with living in Canada where handguns are illegal. I feel so incredibly safer here than in any moderate to large american city.

The whole question of causality enters the picture. Is it safer here because handguns are illegal or is the crime rate lower because there is less poverty and despair here. I think it's a mix of both. Synnen hit the nail on the head with the sense of entitlement. I see it a little with my sister that lives in Boston and her circle of friends. I travel quite a bit and I'm happier to raise my kids here.

NK - Oh I couldn't agree more. I would much rather live in a world where handguns do not exsist.

I just try to still keep an open mind about things. I am greatly against handguns, especially in my home, but I respect those who wish to own them. I know they wish to hold on to their "entitlement" of owning one, but sometimes I think, what am my right not to have to be immersed in a community where someone owns a gun? That may be a bizarre way to twist it, but I personally at not at ease knowing just steps away, in someone's home is a deadly weapon. But I of course respect their rights.

Oh Canada sounds so nice. I was a huge hockey fan, just huge. I actually took french in high school, because back in the day most of the hockey players spoke french.

I have to tell you though, I was quite horrified at a documentary that I saw on Vancuver. I think it was Vancuver. Seems there is an awful lot of drug problems there and other difficulties. Is that right? I was shocked and saddened to say the least. Still am.

NK, I have been to Canada (Niagra Falls and Windsor) a few times and I must say what I have seen is beautiful.

Are there issues there though - other than gun control? You guys have a different health care plan than us Americans do, don't you? How is that working? Or Education or anything. I would love to hear from someone, out of this country, on topics where your country has different programs than we do in the US and how it works for you.
I know you have read the posts, so you have seen what is dominating the boards - criminals/crimes against kids, gun control, global warming, etc.
How is Canada different than the US in handling these things? Maybe we could learn something.

There you have it people. That's it. BINGO Synnen. We in America are just too darn spoiled. We keep wanting more - and when we get more - we want more than that!!!!!

That's it Synnen - you just exposed the root problem to this issue and so many that we experience here in this beautiful country.

Madam President Synnen - not sure we can afford to wait until you are of age - but it sure will be worth the wait.

Girl, you just hit the nail big time!
Is this sarcasm? LOL

Is this sarcasm? LOL

No Matt - No sarcasm.

Canada has a universal health care coverage. We do not have to pay for doctors visits or exams or tests. In Canada it is important that everybody gets treated and cared for. Does not matter whether you have insurance or not. Our coverage card is all we need.

As you well know handguns are illegal. As the torontosun story says. More guns does not necessarily mean safer communities. Check out the torontosun.com

The government that we have in office right now, was not for kyoto. They were not really keen on the global aspect of pollution and control. Or points system. They have regularly stated that Canada has higher admissions then the states. That we need to adopt our own plan and our own goals to make. Without kyoto.

The previous liberal government were so relaxed with crime and punishment it was a joke but now with the concervative government there passing bills to get tougher on crime.

Previous government wanted to legalize pot, but now the concervative government has scraped that idea.

Oh, sorry about this nowwhat but the united states does not have any health plan or coverage. All I hear about the states is people being turned away becauase they do not have insurance. People going into major debt because of medical bills. We do not have to worry about that here. All though prescription drugs on the other hand are a different story all together.

Education is different depending on what province you are in. It is important to know that some provinces are trying to introduce bills that will make it illegal to drop out of school. That you need to finish the high school.

I am not sure what else to say. Just that the united states has lots of beautiful places. I love Maine and New Hampshire. The only thing that I do not like is the government. Which as everybody knows, bush is on his last leg.

We were indifferent about the iraq war and because of it we as canada was dealt with unfavorably because the american government called us a terrorist state, but we all know the difference.

I would never ever move to the states. I feel a lot safer in Canada, always will. I believe we have a health care coverage that exceeds other countries. All though we are struggling too, but not all systems are perfect. At least I do not have to worry about insurance or being turned away, because I do not have the money.

As well as safety. Americans are targeted by different countries around the world.. You guys have a big bullseye on your backs and it is because of your government. I prefer not to be in the middle of fire.

Okay tell me to shut up, I am rambling now.

Joe

Okay, at the advice of , RubyPitbull I have started a new thread. A new discussion.

Sort of talking out what we feel is wrong with this world - or our country. What we can do to fix it or make it better.

What tops your list as the most important issue?

There are lots to choose from

How we handle our criminals - is it fair or right that a non violent criminal gets 20 years for not paying his taxes and the guy he shares his cell with killed a child, but will get out in 7 with good behavior? Am I the only one that finds that disturbing?
(I guess that is what gets me going)

Or how about the war? How much longer do our guys have to fight and die? When can they come home? What is the war really about anyway?

What makes you angry? How would you change it if you could?

So here is my post - I hope you find it thought provoking.

There is not much you can do to change a lot of what is happening in the world these days no matter how much we would love to change it, so much is beyond our means, we could make a difference by being there for others by taking more time and giving a non judgmental listening ear, be there for people that need us and just show that we care, if everyone acted this way then would we have half of the trouble we have in this world today? It would also be great if people were allowed to have their own opinions, who is to say who is right or wrong? Each to their own, it does not hurt to agree to differ, what is right for one person is not necessarily right for another, every person owns their life and should live it as peacefully as possible, so maybe all we can do to make this world a better place is to treat each other better, to treat people the way we would wish to be treated ourselves, there is too much suffering and pain in this world that can't be helped, it is so much nicer to share a smile and laughter, take care, love and peace anne x

You know health care is an issue. We have insurance and it's good. And the US has medicaid - which provides healthcare to low income families. It's the ones of us that are middle of the road. We make too much to qualify for medicaid - but have a hard time paying the bills that aren't covered under insurance.
I find it sickening when I hear stories of those turned away. - that should never happen. To me, that is someone putting a monetary value on someone else's life. And - I don't think you can do that.

I do also agree that the USA has a bullseye painted on us and it is a matter of time before war comes to our soil - that is a scary thought. I really wish our soldiers could come home - but, sadly, I don't think that is going to happen any time soon.

Some days I feel like "safety" is an illusion. Are we really safe? There are so many things to look for. That is why I don't watch the news. It is so depressing. 10 killed here, 5 killed there. All of this crime. I read most of my news on the internet and try to keep informed - but I turned off the nightly news a long time ago.

Thanks Joe for sharing - really interesting and enjoyable to read.

Now - as far as healthcare and people being turned away - I am not 100% sure, but almost positive, and those in the heathcare field can correct me, but it is illegal to turn anyone away for medical care. I am referring to if someone goes to the Emergency Room at a hospital. It is my understanding, it is illegal for them to be turned away. I have never heard of anyone being turned away for care from an ER due to no insurance.

Is this sarcasm? LOL

Matt it is not only America it is worldwide, it is a well known fact that if we get what we want then we don't want for it anymore because we have it, then we think of the next thing we need, we will never stop wanting because it is our nature, even people that are so rich that they can have anything material that they wanted, still crave for something the trouble is with this it is normally something money can't buy and is not so easy to achieve. Take care, love and peace anne x

If you want to know what it is like here in Australia just read Joe's post above and replace the word Canada with Australia. Our system is the same right down the fact that we refused to sign Kyoto too.

Gun laws credited as lifesavers - National - smh.com.au (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/gun-laws-credited-as-lifesavers/2007/04/22/1177180487704.html)

Just thought it may be of interest to the discussion.

No Matt - No sarcasm.


Sometimes, I can be somewhat dim.

There is not much you can do to change a lot of what is happening in the world these days no matter how much we would love to change it, so much is beyond our means, we could make a difference by being there for others by taking more time and giving a non judgmental listening ear, be there for people that need us and just show that we care, if everyone acted this way then would we have half of the trouble we have in this world today? It would also be great if people were allowed to have their own opinions, who is to say who is right or wrong? each to their own, it does not hurt to agree to differ, what is right for one person is not necessarily right for another, every person owns their life and should live it as peacefully as possible, so maybe all we can do to make this world a better place is to treat each other better, to treat people the way we would wish to be treated ourselves, there is too much suffering and pain in this world that can't be helped, it is so much nicer to share a smile and laughter, take care, love and peace anne x


:p Hippie

Sometimes, I can be somewhat dim.

Aww Matt not at all. I enjoy your post! And sorry, the job of being dim has been filled my friend... by me :D

Ok, now we can do something different. Does anyone actually hate Alex Baldwin any more or less than before. My opinion was not too good to begin with. Should the tape have been released? Was he at all justified in his actions, (note I say at all, because of course he was way out of line) based on the fact that he flew from NY to La to visit with the child, and the child did not want to come. It's a hot issue, (kids and courts.) What's the consensus.

I didn't really have feelings about Alec Baldwin to begin with - but listening to that tape - Boy oh boy - did he screw up. No father should talk to his kid that way. And he should have known better considering the custody issues he has with his ex. And YES, I think she should have released it. Shame on him.

Ok, now we can do something different. Does anyone actually hate Alex Baldwin any more or less than before. My opinion was not too good to begin with. Should the tape have been released? Was he at all justified in his actions, (note I say at all, because of course he was way out of line) based on the fact that he flew from NY to La to visit with the child, and the child did not want to come. It's a hot issue, (kids and courts.) Whats the consensus.

Do I live in a bubble? What is going on with Alec Baldwin?

Oh, he got mad at his 12 year old daughter and left her a nasty voice mail. Calling her a little pig several times - telling her he was going to get on a plane and come out and straighten her out or something. Called her mom something. Just an angry call.

Outstanding. I must live in a bubble... or I have missed a couple of nights of Entertainment Tonight!

I didn't really have feelings about Alec Baldwin to begin with - but listening to that tape - Boy oh boy - did he screw up. No father should talk to his kid that way. And he should of known better considering the custody issues he has with his ex. And YES, I think she should of released it. Shame on him.

While I don't condone Baldwin's actions, I do think they are understandable. Remember, this was a SCHEDULED call. Under his Visitation rights, he was entitled to this call and to talk to his daughter at that time. Apparently this was not the first time his daughter has missed their scheduled calls.

What I saw in this incident was a man trying to be a good father to his child. But that child spurning him, possibly at the insistence of a mother who clearly was trying to make things more difficult for him. Instead of trying to remain civil for the sake of the child, she's become a pawn in their battle.

So, I can't condem Baldwin for losing his cool and I do fault Basinger for releasing it. She didn't only embarrass Baldwin, but her daughter as well.

I agree with you Scott. I feel very badly for the man. This custody battle has been going on for a long time. I think he has been baited by his ex for a while. She has methodically turning his daughter against him. He finally exploded and she got what she has been waiting for. If this was typical of his behavior, we would have heard about it before. The fact that Basinger taped it, tells me that this was a set up long in the making. What he said was absolutely wrong, but understandable, when you are constantly being blocked from seeing or speaking with your child. It was the straw that broke the camel's back for him. This really should have been directed at the mother, not the child. The kid is a pawn in a game. Terribly, terribly sad.

The fact that Basinger taped it, tells me that this was a set up long in the making.

Well, I think she just took the tape from her daughter's voice mail.


What he said was absolutely wrong, but understandable, when you are constantly being blocked from seeing or speaking with your child. It was the straw that broke the camel's back for him. This really should have been directed at the mother, not the child. The kid is a pawn in a game. Terribly, terribly sad.

Yes it is sad. But I think Baldwin is actually going to come out better from this.

I agree that she taped it from voice mail. The fact is, she has been waiting for him to finally blow. From what I understand they have been in a custody battle for years. She let this "leak" on purpose. But, I think you are right about him coming out of this okay. If someone like me, who doesn't really follow this stuff, sees through this, I can't imagine a Judge won't.

What's funny to me is that it makes Basinger look bad, not Balwin, in my opinion anyway.

I think her little plan backfired :P

Hello:

In my view, the only thing he did that was improper was the name calling. Everything else was RIGHT ON. Go Alec.

excon

PS> I loved "The Hunt For Red October".

You know, I get how some one can get frustrated, especially if you are constantly getting blocked from your child - but how does blowing up at a child help? I mean, if you are angry and feel that you have been wronged - take it up with the mother.
Calling a 12 year old girl a little pig several times through out a voice message do anyone any good?
If she missed the call - she missed the call. "Hey Honey, I really miss talking to you, call me when you get this. I love you. Call me back. Dad" That is what he should have said to his daughter.
The call to his ex. Is where he lets off steam.

You are right Nowwhat. I guess we won't know what actually transpired unless we are allowed into the custody hearing. There is no excuse for calling his daughter names and cursing at her, which he did. He has acknowledged that. I think it was a culmination of many years of frustration with the mother who has been brainwashing her to hate her father. We have no idea what the kid has verbally said to her father at other times. I think the guy just finally blew a cork out of frustration that his daughter has progressively shown that she wants nothing to do with him.

You are right Nowwhat. I guess we won't know what actually transpired unless we are allowed into the custody hearing. There is no excuse for calling his daughter names and cursing at her, which he did. He has acknowledged that. I think it was a culmination of many years of frustration with the mother who has been brainwashing her to hate her father. We have no idea what the kid has verbally said to her father at other times. I think the guy just finally blew a cork out of frustration that his daughter has progressively shown that she wants nothing to do with him.

Well the phone call was likely recorded, it is very common in these situations.
I have to tape all calls I make to my daughter and when her mother calls here to speak with her. It's to protect yourself, from misunderstandings and false allegations. Yes he was wrong, and even cruel but I have seen him make a a**
Out of himself several times before. But, he's a great leading man.
This stems from the fact that he had actually flew to La from NY to see her and she didn't show up. And he probably has no way of communicating with his ex except with lawyers. Parental Alienation, and Parental alienation Syndrome
Is a very disturbing crime committed against the child. I personally have had listen to my 4 and a half year old tell me all the lies and any other thing (true and untrue) that her mother can think of simply to diminish me in her eyes. What's really sad is that it does more harm to the kids because you are basically telling them that they are stupid and wrong for thinking the way they do. It's really my own fault for I broke a very important Murphys law "never sleep with anyone crazier than yourself"


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Parental alienation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_alienation)
Parental Alienation Syndrome: How to Detect It and What to Do About It by J. Michael Bone and Michael R. Walsh (http://www.fact.on.ca/Info/pas/walsh99.htm)
parental alienation - Google Search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=iTF&q=parental+alienation&btnG=Search)



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Nobody wins in a situation like this - least of all the child. I don't understand how any parent could do this - if you aren't with the other parent anymore - you obviously don't care or like each other anymore. But - that doesn't have anything to do with you as a parent. We may stink as husband/wife but, what does that have to do with your parenting skills?

My ex. Sister-in-law told my niece and nephew for years that their dad and his side of the family were terrible and blah blah blah. They didn't want much to do with us. Then the mom couldn't handle my nephew anymore and sent him to live with his dad. It took a long time for my brother to get through to this kid and help him. It is the best thing that could have happened (coming to live with him) and I am glad she made that decision. It was made more out of convienence for herself than making a sacrifice - but whatever.
There were years of brainwashing to overcome. Now he is a protective teenager doing well in school and sports - something that would have never happened if he still lived with his mom. My niece, well that is another story. She is a teen mom and married to a real "winner". No job, living off the system and happy doing so. She only contacts us if she wants something - just like her mother.

I'm going to leave for Gliese 581 c (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliese_581_c). Anyone coming with me?

I am always game for a new adventure

I can't believe Wiki has already made an entry on that Cappy. Fast work. Pretty amazing stuff huh? We knew we couldn't be the only planet in the universe that can support life, but it is rather exciting to have this discovery happen during our lifetime.

Uh-oh, I can only imgine the new religious debates that will spark should life be found there. Xenu will be angered!

I can only imagine too. It looks like fun to me..

Evil monkey. :D

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/HPM/FM2063~Family-Guy-Evil-Monkey-Posters.jpg