Once again we are being treated to the "yes you will, no we won't" negotiations over the bankrupt state of Greece and its creditors. I may be a skeptic but wasn't the previous package of measures supposed to fix the problem and yet here we are again seeing the same or additional conditions of the same type being imposed because Greece cannot meet its repayment deadlines. I would like to know, who miscalculated, or who didn't hold up their part of the bargain? If Greece were a company or a household it would have to loose some of its assets. Their debt is something like 170% of their annual income so no surprise they cannot meet their repayments, it's a wonder they can even meet the interest bill. The issue is someone has to pay and all those rich greeks on their greek islands have to pay for their place in the sun. So perhaps the german and EU banks could impose a site rental on those islands to get their money back. At the very least they should stop the flight of capital out of the country and what's this nonsense about no VAT on electricity, I have to pay a tax on electricity

EU will not let them fail. Impose restrictions that are too harsh and they default, which another bailout is basically defaulting. Turkey is probably next. People need jobs to get paid and spend money. Bailouts are bad. Just like in the USA, bailing out the big automakers prevented reform. Restructuring through bankruptcy is not a bad thing. It's also like the USA with the postal service, which loses what, 8 billion dollars each quarter? Just because something was a good idea 200 years ago doesn't make it a good idea now.

Yes socialism was a good idea a hundred years ago and it isn't a good idea now or at least the greek version which appears to be everyone is on the government payroll being paid money borrowed from other countries and the greeks expect that these countries will just accept cents on the dollar. In ancient times they had a remedy for this sort of thing, invade and take the population into slavery. But we are too enlightened to do such things today.

They want restructed loans, how about a no interest loan, now they could afford that, but it seems they can't afford the other terms which involve a lifestyle change. The answer is to set up tarriff barriers so expensive goods cannot be imported, all those lovely toys the EU makes. If they won't pay income tax, abolish income tax and use a VAT

Oliver ;right on ! Also not a great idea is 'too big to fail' . Here in the US we have codified it with Dodd Frank. The EU believes that Greece is too big to fail. Cut em loose and let them float the Drachma . It would be a devalued currency .But in the long run it would be better off if they weren't tied to the Euro.

Yes Tom but what to do about all those loans they are going to default on. In banking you either get your principle back or you get your interest or you get the collateral. There is no collateral. If you cut them loose you are just saying off you got don't do it again. Look at Argentina it has been down this road a couple of times, still a basket case economy and yet there is a powerhouse economy right next door. No, the EU needs to take equity, their power industry, their ports. It isn't they are too big to fail, it is that the ripple effect will destabilise the Euro which has already seen major adjustments in value, at a time when they may be facing a threat from Russia.

I think the whole situation has become just too hard and the only way out is extend the loans and not give Greece any more money.

Greece has conditioned the EU response. Their politicians either won't or are incapable of making good decisions. The result is Greece fails, EU bails them out. If you allow Greece to collapse you will probably be facing at least two major events. Cyprus will probably collapse because those economies are tied closely together. Second we would probably see mass exodus and a flooding into other countries by the Greeks. And you could probably add chaos as a third.

Innovation and innovative thinkers are needed while their corrupt Government needs a spanking. How about huge incentives for European businesses to relocate their manufacturing to Greece. Putting people back to work is one step. But you have to get rid of corruption.

Do you actually think there is a work ethic in Greece, if there were EU companies would already be taking advantage of lower costs. It is not only corruption, there is a problem of taxation collection and unsustainable pensions and public service. This is what happens when you have a nanny economy. I don't think the rest of EU should cop it, if greeks want to migrate for work they have that option in EU, why do the companies have to go to them. No let Greece fail, Cyprus is already a basket case, and leave the EU.

What is going on there 26% unemployment and Europe on their doorstep

I don't know that much about the Greeks or their culture. It seems both need a reboot. Economic sustainability is far from rocket science. It's when you introduce political influences and people it all falls apart. Give me the US economy. I'd lose the postal service obviously and privatize mail. I'd lose the IRS and go to the flat or fair tax. With environmental concerns I'd drill for oil. To have our economy tied to outside political groups is just really stupid. Last and not least I'd send Dennis Hastert to ISIS because I'm so disappointed in him (should the allegations be true).

Big difference between a few million people in a place without much resources and the US. What works in one place doesn't work in another. You can get away with deficit budgetting and obviously they can't but they are a caution for what could happen to you. You have an efficient IRS they don't. Don't look for radical solutions. As far a mail is concerned, it is a dying service everywhere and you just have to increase the cost and allow the market to determine whether it wants the service. And drill baby drill, be energy sufficient and go on beggering your neighbour

Based on recent history, events, and some political corruption, there are probably those who would argue the efficiency of the IRS.

I wasn't trying to compare the US economy with theirs. The economic stimulus has to fit the country. Having said that it's still not rocket science. But some political leaders have their own interests in mind and progress can't be made.

Indeed the current greek government was elected on a platform of abandoning these agreements and obviously they want to show progress on winding back austerity, however they are not realistic, there has to be a lot of pain and unfortunately in Greece, as in other places, the rich are not going to step up, so it is others who face the pain. I lived in a long time in a regime where salaries could not increase, not quite the same, but adjustments have to be made. You have options, leave or accept the change. THE GREEKS ARE IN THE SAME POSITION but they fail to realise that you cannot negotiate from a position of destitution

It is only a question of when, not if, the Europeans pull the plug on Greece . Further ,at this point at least there is no advantage to being a strategic partner with Greece. That could change if Turkey ,in it's quest to recreate the Ottoman Empire turns their gaze to the Aegean .


I'd lose the postal service obviously and privatize mail. I'd lose the IRS and go to the flat or fair tax. With environmental concerns I'd drill for oil. To have our economy tied to outside political groups is just really stupid. Last and not least I'd send Dennis Hastert to ISIS because I'm so disappointed in him (should the allegations be true).

Again right on .

About Hastert ...... the allegations against him are disgusting .However ,I do have a problem with the charges being levied against him. It really should not be criminal behavior to withdraw money from the bank .

It really should not be criminal behavior to withdraw money from the bank .

It's not. He was reported to the FBI by the banks. And an adult sexually approaching a minor is more than disgusting, it's criminal! Because he wasn't caught when he was doing it, and before the statute of limitations ran out is disgusting. That he rose to prominence, and got rich after the deed was done is disgusting.

Let the Europeans and the Middle East clean up it's own disgusting mess!

It's not. He was reported to the FBI by the banks.
again ;why is his taking money out of the bank cause for him to be reported to the FBI ? It's a very stupid requirement .

Here is more info: Yahoo! (http://news.yahoo.com/ex-us-speaker-hastert-indicted-bank-related-charges-214129927--politics.html)

He wasn't indicted just for taking money out of the bank. He's charged with "evading bank regulations by withdrawing $952,000 in increments of less than $10,000 to skirt reporting requirements. " Those requirements apply to all US citizens.

Off topic and I took us there - I had a lot of respect for Hastert as Speaker. I do remember thinking he was very quiet on the Mark Foley travesty. And now we know why. Very disappointed Mr. Hatert!

The Europeans don't need Greece, Turkey, and Cyprus to fail. It brings anarchy to the region and invites groups like ISIS to assume they can have a safe haven there.

Maybe the Europeans can treat their poor states the way we do... send 'em welfare checks. No interest. No pay back! What, you didn't know we had poor states in the US?

The 10 Poorest States In America - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/the-10-poorest-states-in-america-2014-12)

To all intents and purposes Cyprus gave us an indication of what would happen if Greece leaves the EU, but money is already fleeing Greece so there is no investment which might bring the country back. Turkey is not part of EU so if it fails its impacts are local and it wouldn't help Daesh because they have probably been helping them if for no other reason than facilitating the flow of foreign fighters. Daesh is not a threat to Turkey which has a large military and the will to use it.

The EU has to bail Greece out so that instability doesn't spread throughout the Balkans but it won't be on reduced terms

Maybe the Europeans can treat their poor states the way we do... send 'em welfare checks. No interest. No pay back! What, you didn't know we had poor states in the US?

The 10 Poorest States In America - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/the-10-poorest-states-in-america-2014-12)

That is what they have been doing Tal or as good as. Greece needs new deal program. Maybe the US should adopt Greece sort of take it off the hands of the EU in exchange for a base after all it worked for Diego Garcia.

I took a look at your poor states report Tal and I find it interesting that for the most part those who top the poverty list are the states who lost the civil war 150 years ago. I have no doubt there are other factors, such as the size of former slave populations and the vagarities of climate but this is the outcome of change in the social order and a proof that the rich keep their money and keep their job creation close to home.

You have now discovered it was cheaper to keep those slaves growing cotton than it is to have them unemployed. Let's move to your other war of liberation, Iraq, strangely unnerving that we see a scenario unfolding which will lead to generational poverty in that place also. In this case the shiia have been freed and there is an ongoing civil war. Could it be that the price of democracy is a disadvantage for a large percentage of the population

I come from the great state that Mark Foley represented. How's Florida doing?

I come from the great state that Mark Foley represented. How's Florida doing?

I don't know what it takes to get in Tal's report but on these statistics, not much better

Spotlight on Poverty and Opportunity (http://www.spotlightonpoverty.org/map-detail.aspx?state=florida)

I guess you could say things are tough all over

When we stick to old rituals and policies it's no wonder. Bailing out newspapers? What? Print media had it's day. I used to love the Sunday paper, but it's not needed now. And seriously why is mail delivered 6 days a week? I couldn't tell you how much a stamp is because I don't use them. And one last point - I love hearing politicians talking about not building more refineries and drilling because it would take 10 years to get a return. Well had we done it 30 years ago we'd be 20 years ahead.

I want a forward thinker to lead, not just in the White House but in Congress as well. Scale back Government, let the people choose how to spend their money, and everything else falls in place.

*stepping off the soap box now...

When we stick to old rituals and policies it's no wonder. Bailing out newspapers? What? Print media had it's day. I used to love the Sunday paper, but it's not needed now. And seriously why is mail delivered 6 days a week? I couldn't tell you how much a stamp is because I don't use them. And one last point - I love hearing politicians talking about not building more refineries and drilling because it would take 10 years to get a return. Well had we done it 30 years ago we'd be 20 years ahead. I want a forward thinker to lead, not just in the White House but in Congress as well. Scale back Government, let the people choose how to spend their money, and everything else falls in place. *stepping off the soap box now...Oliver you won't get forward thinkers in government. Politics is about retaining the status quo, keeping the good times rolling for those who bank roll the politicians. You can't let people choose how to spend their money, who would invest in a new road, a new aircraft carrier? No they would spend it on a swimming pool. I don't know why a business must get a return in ten years from an asset that lasts fifty, that is the kind of thinking that gets us what we have got today, lots of rich people who don't want to invest. The people who get a bailout are those who have politicians in their pocket. Industries do fail and disappear, not many saddliers about these days and farriers are no longer in vogue but these things may come again if there is no fuel for the automobile so extraction is important at least for the next hundred years. What you have to do is ease the industries into reconstruction, newspapers give way to electronics, extractive industries to nuclear power. But we need to stop dreaming because that revolutionary technology is probably not available tomorrow. Change is incremental, the car after 100 years still has four wheels and an engine powered by oil, the plane still has two wings and engine powered by oil. They are bigger, they are better and more reliable but the concept hasn't changed. The same goes for just about any everyday object. We have thousands of graduates from universities and not a fresh idea among them, the real innovators didn't wait to finish their course.

Should people who don't pay taxes (file) get a right to the decisions made in this country/right to vote? Give more than 50% free money, cell phones, etc, and the country is done. We almost fell over that cliff in the last 7 soon to be 8 years. With the flat or fair tax the Federal Government gets their monies and others do as well because everyone is paying taxes assuming you buy something and everyone gets a vote. Plus you lose the political organization that targets people, the IRS. Unfortunately those that run for office run for their legacy and not the country.

So you would like to return to the days of laise faire capitalism when only the rich had any say in the running of the country, these were days of destitution for the poor. Welfare keeps the economy going because these people spend every penny they get, unlike the rich who hoard their wealth. Without it you would have anarchy and revolution and yes such people should have a say in the running of the country after all it was built on their backs. Your view is born out of a nation that finds poverty objectional as if it is a disease, rather than a social ill created by capitalism.Every person should have employment and someone has to have the responsibility for creating it and that comes from responsible representative government not some upper class utopia. I have heard this flat rate tax argument and it always comes from the rich, those who have plenty of income and want to keep it. How flat should the rate be before it becomes a burden to be avoided. 10%? 20%? 30%? 40%. The principle of taxation in itself is a problem. When I was young the rate of tax an ordinary person might pay was 10% and the top rate was 97% imposed on the very wealthy of whom there were few. Today that same person might pay 30-40% and there are many rich who pay less than 50% but no one with a low income pays tax. Has employment increased? Have the number of poor deceased? I would abolish income tax for a consumption tax of 25% and no exemptions, so companies pay it as well as individuals, however the poor would need to be compensated for the extra cost by an increase in welfare payments otherwise it is unfair. What this does is put the tax burden where it belongs on those who have the greatest spending power and those who at the moment are able to avoid tax. I expect your flat rate tax argument just fell flat

Welfare keeps the economy going because these people spend every penny they get, unlike the rich who hoard their wealth. huh ? Around here the rich spend prolifically .They also contribute $millions on philanthropy ,advancing culture ,medical reasearch etc. Every time a JF Kerry purchases a big a$$ yacht it makes jobs . My boss is rich . He likes to make money ....lots of money . He also hires over 600 people just on the business that employees me .... and I can only guess the total number of people he employs. You are smarter than that class envy b.s.
Again ,Oliver is right on. A flat tax or a tiered flat tax is the way to go. This progressive tax system favors rent seekers . Yes the poor get their crumbs from it ;but the real beneficiary are the ones who can hire the best tax accountants.
I say make the rates as flat and low as possible ;and fire most of the IRS employees .


When I was young the rate of tax an ordinary person might pay was 10% and the top rate was 97% imposed on the very wealthy of whom there were few so of course you use taxation for social engineering instead of paying for the business of the government . Figures . You are not telling us the facts if you think the top tiered people really paid taxes at 97% or anywhere's near that . They'd all 'go Galt ' on you.

A flat tax or a tiered flat tax is the way to go..
I say make the rates as flat and low as possible ;and fire most of the IRS employees .
What do you think a tiered flat tax is other than a progressive tax system

so of course you use taxation for social engineering instead of paying for the business of the government . Figures . You are not telling us the facts if you think the top tiered people really paid taxes at 97% or anywhere's near that . They'd all 'go Galt ' on you.

Back in the day it was a conservative government who thought that way, it took a socialist government to reform the system, the result being of course that the workers paid more and the rich paid less and of course still do.

Right now we have a tax system which is inadequate to meet the needs of the country thanks to that social engineering, any of this sound familiar?

There is more than one side of the equation and someone has to pay for the aircraft carriers, the production of which enrich you know who. I don't know about you but I don't need any more aircraft carriers. We have industry that has migrated to asia thanks to low tarrifs and FTA's, our social engineering only benefited the chinese and so did yours, courtesy of our patriot capitalists

You keep raving about flat tax as if it were an economic panacea but the answer is actually to collect some tax. What is the latest statistic on how many in your nation actually pay tax? You need a tax system that actually is based in truth and not fiction because the one you have is fiction because of social engineering. Start by eliminating all deductions and allowances and then you can talk about reforming the rates and impact on various groups

An economy built on servicing rich guys and leaving crumbs where they please doesn't sound like an economic model for the WHOLE population, and yes we see rich guys spending prolifically buying politicians and lawmakers to service them also.

Nor does restricting voters to just those who qualify based on how much they pay in taxes, or if they can afford an excellent accountant. I get kissing the boss's butt though, natural if he gives you a paycheck as well as a few crumbs, but get real, if he can make a buck laying you off he sure the hell will, and then whose butt will you look to apply your lips too?

Yeah give the rich guys more money and see who pays for the bridges, roads, and schools, where YOU live.

Tal I have no illusions about my relationship . He can increase my pay ,reduce it ,lay me off . It's all his call. I on the other hand can quit and work for someone else .When I was on the assembly line ,or cleaning dishes ,or any of the other more upleasant jobs I've done I always understood the relationship. Nothing forces bosses to hire me ;and nothing forces me to remain if I don't like the terms .
What I have seen is the work the bosses do to succeed ;and that is something I would not be willing to do. That is why I don't own a business.My boss also raises a fortune every year sponsoring charitable events . He puts in the time and he fronts the money . My boss did not start out being able to purchase a big a$$ yacht . He worked his tail off to get to that point . I've also worked for bosses who put in the work and ended up losing their shirts . That's the risk I was not willing to take . So excuse me if I think they deserve what they get . I don't think he or anyone else should be paying anywheres near 50% of their income in taxes let alone 97% .


What do you think a tiered flat tax is other than a progressive tax system


Back in the day it was a conservative government who thought that way, it took a socialist government to reform the system, the result being of course that the workers paid more and the rich paid less and of course still do.

Right now we have a tax system which is inadequate to meet the needs of the country thanks to that social engineering, any of this sound familiar?

There is more than one side of the equation and someone has to pay for the aircraft carriers, the production of which enrich you know who. I don't know about you but I don't need any more aircraft carriers. We have industry that has migrated to asia thanks to low tarrifs and FTA's, our social engineering only benefited the chinese and so did yours, courtesy of our patriot capitalists

You keep raving about flat tax as if it were an economic panacea but the answer is actually to collect some tax. What is the latest statistic on how many in your nation actually pay tax? You need a tax system that actually is based in truth and not fiction because the one you have is fiction because of social engineering. Start by eliminating all deductions and allowances and then you can talk about reforming the rates and impact on various groups

Like I said ;the progessive tax system with the myriad of exclusions ,deductions ,exemptions is tailor maid for rent seekers of all income levels .

Again you avoid the point, you cannot get rid of what you have short of revolution, too many vested interests. There are some things we know do not work and tax above a certain level is one of them even if Sweden gives the lie to that. The progressive tax system works if it is not fiddled with to allow avoidance or to advantage a particular group. First principle; the poor, low paid and those receiving government payments don't pay tax. It is a waste of time having them file returns. Second principle; Truth in assessment. No loop holes. Third principle; Enforcement. Fourth principle; Fair rates with a ceiling that doesn't create disincentive. Fifth principle; collect tax at the point of income or expenditure

How many of these principles does your system ignore?

"the proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeois, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the state."(Marx and Engels ); a“heavy graduated income tax” is a salient feature of the Communist Manifesto .

WOW, 30/40% as a top rate with loopholes up the ying yang for rich guys is hardly a heavy graduated income tax.

I mean dang Tom, a rich guys can pay less than 10% income taxes and get to hide dough all over the world! Thats AFTER 10 years of Bush's tax cuts through a recession!

That doesn't sound like communism at all, JUST SAYIN'!

No roads, bridges, or schools, jobs, or living wages, but plenty of off shore and Swiss bank accounts (lets not forget the yachts and private jets). there ain't no pie left after a rich guy comes to dinner, so forget the crumbs, they ate that too!

Or are you hiding the truth?

"The rich will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the masses, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the state that he bought; a“ free market capitalism” is a salient feature of the Rich Guy Manifesto .

It is interesting that Tom should be familiar with the communist maifesto, I suspect he is a scholar of Mien Kempf too! The only manifesto I follow is the common sense manifesto. We all live in the country and we all have a responsibility to pay for the amenities that are provided for our benefit. If we live in a representative democracy and most of us do, but Tom doesn't, we accept that we have put in place a government to make decisions which include taxes and expenditure and our part of the compact is to pay taxes according to our means. Tom would have those with no means pay a disproportionally heavy levy on the basis that this is fair to him. This is the me first manifesto

WOW, 30/40% as a top rate with loopholes up the ying yang for rich guys is hardly a heavy graduated income tax.

I mean dang Tom, a rich guys can pay less than 10% income taxes and get to hide dough all over the world! Thats AFTER 10 years of Bush's tax cuts through a recession!

That doesn't sound like communism at all, JUST SAYIN'!

No roads, bridges, or schools, jobs, or living wages, but plenty of off shore and Swiss bank accounts (lets not forget the yachts and private jets). there ain't no pie left after a rich guy comes to dinner, so forget the crumbs, they ate that too!
under my tax system there would be no loop holes ...so with all due respect ;mine is the "fairer" means of taxing .


It is interesting that Tom should be familiar with the communist maifesto, I suspect he is a scholar of Mien Kempf too! The only manifesto I follow is the common sense manifesto. We all live in the country and we all have a responsibility to pay for the amenities that are provided for our benefit. If we live in a representative democracy and most of us do, but Tom doesn't, we accept that we have put in place a government to make decisions which include taxes and expenditure and our part of the compact is to pay taxes according to our means. Tom would have those with no means pay a disproportionally heavy levy on the basis that this is fair to him. This is the me first manifesto

Yes I am familiar with all the doctrine of those I oppose including your gradual Fabian destruction of liberty in favor of the decrees nanny state .

Fabian destruction of liberty in favor of the decrees nanny state .It almost sounds intelligent but means absolutely nothing.

whereas I'm sure your comment is meaningless and irrelevant .

I am not a Fabianist Tom in fact I vote for the conservative side of politics but that is not the rabid right wing approach you espouse. You cannot have the tax burden fall on those least able to pay it. Tax cannot be imposed in isolation to other factors and creating a situation where government gives with one hand and takes with the other doesn't work because many things lag behind cost increases. The answer is strong economic activity with as many in work as possible. You cannot incentivise those job creators of yours through the taxation system as has been done and giving them a low flat rate tax won't incentiveise them either because their decision making isn't based on tax. Look at your basket case economy. You have zero interest rates, a strong currency and buckets of money and they still won't invest in your country. Perhaps if you tried a two tiered tax system where you taxed the non citizen higher that excess capacity would leave your economy and the system would work

You cannot incentivise those job creators of yours through the taxation system as has been done and giving them a low flat rate tax won't incentiveise them either because their decision making isn't based on tax. Look at your basket case economy. You have zero interest rates, a strong currency and buckets of money and they still won't invest in your country.

The other factor is burdensome regulation. I'm not in favor of giving anyone favors . With my system there would be no reason to .

I go back to what I said. Just because it was a good idea 200 years ago, doesn't make it a good idea today. Grow and innovate. Term limits on politicians. Up the pay to attract business minds. Unfortunately the United States goes backwards more than forward. The welfare system doesn't work. I'm not saying do away with social programs, but let's change it. Someone much smarter than me has to come up with a plan.

That's the problem Oliver, you have an education system that turns out humogenised graduates, no one is allow to be smarter than anyone else and any head that pops up gets slapped with a PHD and winds up teaching. The smart ones don't go into politics and so you get the hacks who are there for privilege and position.

200 years ago men couldn't afford to spend their lives in politics, the distances were too great and there was money to be made. They devised a system where nothing radical could get done. Your system is 200 years old and in that 200 years the volume of legislation is immense and every bill has to be tome because some vested interest wants to staple something to it. You could stop thnt and make every provision face debate, then the politicians would have to work for a living. I notice you have stopped debating the ACA, maybe someone actually got around to reading it.

You want to up the pay, your President gets paid $400000 and found, a corporate president gets paid many times that often with a share of the business. You pays peanuts you gets monkeys. How high can you go for someone who has to sign what someoneelse thinks up when some of the best minds only make a fraction of that. The system is upside down. Yes term limits would be a great start, you limit the term of the President why not every other political appointment right down to local. Lots of shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic. No tenure in Universities another good idea. Here's an idea. Limits on campaign funding so a position can't be bought. But all of this is pie in the sky because no one wants the system to change

We all want the system to change. We just file it in the "it's too hard" pile and do nothing. Sad. As far as the Affordable Care Act if this Government runs it, it's anything but affordable. The solution to all of these issues can't be raising taxes and growing the size of the Federal Government. The President had a great idea in every high school graduate should get community college paid for. Just show me how it's done without raising taxes. Big Government kills growth. You made comments earlier how incentives don't work and the wealthy don't spend. I respectfully disagree.

If a rich guy can buy a politician to grease the wheels of his profits then he can darn well afford to contribute to roads, bridges, and schools that his workers need, all of which creates jobs for ordinary people to make money and buy stuff.

I find it fascinating those that defend the big money banks, and their rich people friends, who crashed the global economy, displaced MILLIONS, destroyed the lives of hard working people, kept us at war defending foreign interests of rich guys, and then claim how hard they worked to earn what they got but don't have to support the needs of the HARD working people who helped them get it.

Rich guys holler about taxes, regulations, and government, and turn around and buy government officials to write the rules they like and cut taxes, and the facts of history says the last 10 years they have help build NOTHING, create nothing, but suck all the cash from everyone's pockets. Still they holler!

Naw, can't listen to hungry kids, but a rich guy gets all your time and attention... and MONEY, while you barely raise a peep about the extra chapstick you buy to kiss their rich butts! Respect is one thing but do you have to slob all over them too?

You want answers and solutions to problems yet it's right in front of our face... make the rich guys work as hard as the rest of us who are trying to survive, as hard as they SAY they work, and not settle for the lip service.

If you think you can teach a guy to fish, and send him to a pond of piss with no fish in it, and expect him to be grateful, then you better think again. Or maybe that's the problem, Americans just ain't thinking anymore.

Hard to argue with class warfare babble .


who crashed the global economy no you know better . The government forced them to make home loans to folks that could not afford them . That's the root cause of the financial collapse. Even liberal Rolling Stone Magazine got that one right.

Now that's babble, since no one forced the bank to make loans they knew people couldn't afford, or forced them to forge ownership documents either.

Big Banks Fined Mega-Billions; CEOs Remain Untouched, Above the Law | NationofChange (http://www.nationofchange.org/big-banks-fined-mega-billions-ceos-remain-untouched-above-law-1410103896)


Initially the Fed's purchase of these securities was $85 billion per month, a staggering amount, and then in the spring of 2014 it was reduced to $45 billion. What a totally misguided plan that was; it has been called “one of the greatest giveaways” of taxpayer money in U.S history. Now after 5 years and $4 trillion dollars pumped into the banking industry we find that the banks largely sat on the funds instead of initiating the loans as was the intention.
Banks used the funds to nearly triple their stock prices through issuing larger dividends and stock buy-backs. And so the banks made out like bandits and the American people have been the big losers - again. You can get an idea of just how big a failure this Quantitative Easing program has become from this article (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303763804579183680751473884)by a former Federal Reserve executive who managed the program when it was instituted and then walked away after being thoroughly disillusioned by the entirely disingenuous process.

Tell me how hard rich guys work again Tom.

He can't Tal, he has swallowed the bait hook line and sinker, he truly believes his employer will put his interest first, after all he is a business man. We haven't heard much about the US debt how large is it now? How many times GDP does it represent? The analogy between Greece and the US is not lost on some of us, keep going down the path you are going, it is the path to pain and austerity

Relax Clete, the US can manipulate currency better than any country in the known world. A lesson Greece has yet to learn.

no one forced the bank to make loans they knew people couldn't afford
I'll correct myself ... it was the even more progressive 'Village Voice ' that first exposed the REAL reason. Keep in mind that this was written at the height of the melt down when il Duce Cuomo was NY Att General and not our infamous Governor with Federal prosecutors breathing down his neck.


There are as many starting points for the mortgage meltdown as there are fears about how far it has yet to go, but one decisive point of departure is the final years of the Clinton administration, when a kid from Queens without any real banking or real-estate experience was the only man in Washington with the power to regulate the giants of home finance, the Federal National Mortgage Association (FNMA) and the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation (FHLMC), better known as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.Andrew Cuomo, the youngest Housing and Urban Development secretary in history, made a series of decisions between 1997 and 2001 that gave birth to the country's current crisis.

Andrew Cuomo and Fannie and Freddie | Village Voice (http://www.villagevoice.com/news/andrew-cuomo-and-fannie-and-freddie-6395833)


He turned the Federal Housing Administration mortgage program into a sweetheart lender with sky-high loan ceilings and no money down, and he legalized what a federal judge has branded "kickbacks" to brokers that have fueled the sale of overpriced and unsupportable loans.

According to the article Cuomo used heavy handed methods to brow beat lenders into making loans for the unqualified . He did more to set these forces of unregulated expansion in motion than any other secretary and then boasted about it, presenting his initiatives as crusades for racial and social justice.


While many saw this demand for increasingly "flexible" loan terms and standards as a positive step for low-income and minority families, others warned that they could have potentially dangerous consequences. Franklin Raines, the Fannie chairman and first black CEO of a Fortune 500 company, warned that Cuomo's rules were moving Fannie into risky territory: "We have not been a major presence in the subprime market," he said, "but you can bet that under these goals, we will be." Fannie's chief financial officer, Timothy Howard, said that "making loans to people with less-than-perfect credit" is "something we should do." Cuomo wasn't shy about embracing subprime mortgages as a possible consequence of his goals. "GSE presence in the subprime market could be of significant benefit to lower-income families, minorities, and families living in underserved areas," his report on the new goals noted.

You can read the rest and weep that your progressive goals have unintended consequences that they never take blame or responsibility for .... Instead they go to their tried and true demagoguery of demonizing the rich.

Relax Clete, the US can manipulate currency better than any country in the known world. A lesson Greece has yet to learn.

Yes Tal size does matter but when that house of cards comes crashing down you take the rest of us with you as the GFC demonstrated. Greece suffers from trying to play with the big boys. Tom is back on the old line of blaming policy and not greed for the GFC, he forgets it was those worthless bonds that destroyed the system, a system based on lies

like I said .... I'm sourcing one of the most progressive publications in the world as my source.

Progressive, that's a word I never expected you to speak

I say it in the pejorative.

I notice you didn't use the word prestigious.

This is what you really need over there

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-14/human-head-transplant-pitch-receives-sceptical-welcome/6544434

The latest news is this crisis is yawn. After all we are only talking about a few billion and what does it matter in the big picture?

The first stage of default is when you close the banks and restrict access to funds

Greek debt crisis: Banks to remain shut all week - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33307263)

This is what the Greek government has reaped by defying its creditors. Political brinkmanship is not pretty when it begins to affect the general population. The calculation is that as the Greek people move to referundum they will do one of two things; rebuke the government for allowing this situation to develop or endorse a break from Europe. This is a people who want to do things their own way. They have lived on OPM so long reality just doesn't exist

Greece and its principal creditors should acknowledge that Athens will never be able to repay the $ multi-billion it owes, write down its debt and let them exit the euro gracefully. As for the people ; they want lots of government jobs, with early retirement ages, sizeable pensions, and no chance of a reduction in their cost of living....with the rest of Europe picking up the tab .
They vote for politicians who have promised them all that . The US people should take a long hard look.

What is happening there is the inevidible outcome to our progressive policies .The only difference between is that we are bigger and can manage to hang in for a little longer. But the ignorance and stupidity are about the same.

I see Puerto Rico is about to go bust as well:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/business/dealbook/puerto-ricos-governor-says-islands-debts-are-not-payable.html?_r=2

ignorance and stupidity are about the same.

Yes Tom it is in the genes, this is where your massive migration from Europe got you, so it is no surprise that the grandchildren are doing exactly the same to you. But don't worry there will soon be a mass exodus back to Greece because it is cheaper to live the good life.

The only reason the greeks should get a write down is fair war reparations from Germany, otherwise you encourage the westrels and cheats

I see Puerto Rico is about to go bust as well:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/business/dealbook/puerto-ricos-governor-says-islands-debts-are-not-payable.html?_r=2

Same issue;Puerto Rico’s biggest problem lies with the public sector. When growth was high, the public sector grew too much. They borrowed money to pay for all of that and that’s why they are in they position they are in.


Yes Tom it is in the genes, this is where your massive migration from Europe got you, so it is no surprise that the grandchildren are doing exactly the same to you. But don't worry there will soon be a mass exodus back to Greece because it is cheaper to live the good life.

The only reason the greeks should get a write down is fair war reparations from Germany, otherwise you encourage the westrels and cheats

Yes the best business minds have already gone 'Galt' on the country .

$72 Billion so Puerto Rica has been doing what any latin country does, spending money. If it is a US territory why hasn't it had the benefit of US largesse? Well the bailout has to come from the US, no one else is responsible and no one else should foot the bill

As to Greece, It is an outpost of the EU, so losing it doesn't affect anything

If it is a US territory why hasn't it been the benefactor of US largesse?
PR gets plenty US direct aid . $6.5 billion annually . 1/3 of the population gets food aid .25 percent of the monthly benefit may be redeemed for cash.”in direct cash block grants" .A 2010 USDA report said that it's widely acknowledged that 25% of the money gets spent on non-food items.

The answer for PR is either independence or becoming a US State . This territory limbo has to end.

So if it becomes a state what changes and independence sends it down the girgler. They are doing well if only 25% gets spent on non food items When I asked about US largess, I mean't development aid, investment there instead of Mexico

This is a non story Clete because in fact there are actual states in America that are in much worse economic shape than PR, and even Greece for that matter. Matter of fact there are governors running for president, even though their states are in very sad shape.

Well Tal what can I say, where I live you get no marks for failing to lead and we don't actually get state governors running for political office, since it isn't an elected office, quite the contrary a successful politician might be offered a governorship although it more often goes to those of notable achievement. Should we become a republic this will probably change. I looked up Peurto Rica and no doubt it has seen better days, but it is extraordinary that the US has this territory and hasn't exploited it for its strategic value

We have all seen better days before the global financial crisis.

PR has been a basket case for years . So was Greece . All that has happened was very predictable.

I can only agree with you Tom, but would expand that list globally to other countries, states, and towns that are no better off than the ones in the headlines.

Of course ! The economic engine of progressivism is dying ;sustained only by the deficit spending and illusions. You see it all over the world . The liberal vision is being challenged and replaced . In Europe the combination of Fascism and Islamism has social democracy on the ropes . Greece is telling the EU there is no legal basis for them being expelled .' So suck it up and bail us out '. Meanwhile Hasbro has volunteered to begin printing the new Drachma .

Greece illustrates how incredibly fragile the progressive house of cards has become.The Greek crisis has the potential to wreak major damage on the entire world economic system. Just check out the empty ATMs .

PR is equally plagued by liberal tinkering . As an example ,the minimum wage in PR is the same as the rest of the US . But their economy is so much weaker . Only 40 percent of the population has a job..or is even looking for one. That figure has plummeted in recent years. People who want to work can't because businesses that haven't fled yet can't afford the pay scale. The minimum wage is only slighty lower than the medium wage on the island .You think those businesses are a bunch of greedy bass turds too ?

It's expensive to hire and pay workers in PR. There is also a high cost of living , high cost of transportation, energy goods and services . And businesses are subject to unfriendly regulations.
Fewer tourists are planning trips to PR than they were a decade ago .The number of hotel beds is the same as it was four decades ago !
Like Maggie Thatcher said ...... eventually they run out of other people's money .

Obviously you are delighted that a socialist economy should fail, it gives you hope foryour capitalist utopia to emerge


Of course ! The economic engine of progressivism is dying ;sustained only by the deficit spending and illusions. You see it all over the world . The liberal vision is being challenged and replaced . In Europe the combination of Fascism and Islamism has social democracy on the ropes . Greece is telling the EU there is no legal basis for them being expelled .' So suck it up and bail us out '.

The Greek bailout may come from unexpected sources, China has emerged as an interested player and has much to gain from not being a bystander. I suspect they are very good at acquiring state owned assets since they understand how they should be operated. They also have strong reserves and don't want anything to restrict their markets. How will this change your view in years to come, when you realise your own country stood idly by and allowed your IMF to attempt to destroy the Greek economy with their capitalist driven austerity. As their middle class grows no doubt they can direct droves of Chinese to holiday in the greek isles

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/06/30/china-willing-to-play-a-constructive-role-in-keeping-greece-in-the-euro/

It's not progressivism that ruins the world but economic extraction. What you refer to as OPM, is an excuse for non circulation of the money. Rich guys holding onto the crumbs and basically starving everyone else, everywhere.

I find it amusing whenever austerity is mentioned it's only for the poor working class slumps, and never for the rich investor class. When things screw up it's always the middle classes fault, and never the rich guys, or their paid for political stooges. How do you expect any economy to be effective if 80% is in the pockets of less than 1%?

Damn Greeks and Ricans just refuse to be assimilated! Illogical to even think such small pockets of humanity will bring the whole world down though!

obviously you haven't been watching the China market lately . What are they going to do for the Greeks ? Build more Potemkin cities ? For what ? Cornering the feta cheese market ?


They have to worry about their own "middle class " and their aspirations . What was the deal ? Wasn't it constant expansion of the economy in return for not revolting against the corrupt cadres ? This week they started their own version of QE .

As you know their whole economy is teetering on the mother of all real estate bubbles. Countries should not ride bubbles ;especially ones with a fragile economy and a rigid political system . Turns out it's much harder to state manage a consumer society than it was to force the peasants off the farms and into the state managed factories making cheap products for export .

obviously you haven't been watching the China market lately . What are they going to do for the Greeks ? Build more Potemkin cities ? For what ? Cornering the feta cheese market ?


They have to worry about their own "middle class " and their aspirations . What was the deal ? Wasn't it constant expansion of the economy in return for not revolting against the corrupt cadres ? This week they started their own version of QE .

As you know their whole economy is teetering on the mother of all real estate bubbles. Countries should not ride bubbles ;especially ones with a fragile economy and a rigid political system . Turns out it's much harder to state manage a consumer society than it was to force the peasants off the farms and into the state managed factories making cheap products for export .

You have such a myoptic view of the world. That you talk like this indicates you have never been to China and just swallow the propaganda your government spews out. China has large currency reserves and so a few billion to ease the woes of Greece is not too hard. They understand that investment and opportunity are important because they have a long term view. They also avoid interferring in domestic politics, no doubt because they expect that this will be recipricated. They have a vested interest in keeping Europe strong, it is a big market for them and a source of investment in China. Yes they may loose a little in property values but with a huge stock of unsold dwellings some adjustment is warranted. We would certainly like to see the China property market come off the boil because it is fueling a bubble in our own property markets. Besides they are getting their own development bank going and they will expand their interests dramatically. They don't have the same beggar my neighbour policies that your multinationals and fed employ.

They have a lot of farm boys wanting the big city life and this must be managered with employment, a fact that seems to be lost in capitalist thinking, so strategic investments in markets are important. A prosperous EU is good for their economy, whereas another financial debacle is no good for anyone

you're such a Sinophile suck up. China and Greece are both experiencing debt implosions. In Greece's case there will be a sovereign collapse . China is seeing the end of their growth explosion and they do not know how to manage a decline. It was a phony expansion fueled by the single largest credit expansion in monetary history.When the Real Estate bubble burst, China pushed for a stock market bubble. Now that bubble is bursting.

Not at all Tom but I recognise the trends, You may not like it but the twentieth century was your century and the twenty first century belongs to Asia and you know why?You gave them all your industries and know how. Economies like yours flower and then slowly decline. Don't talk of stock market bubbles, how many has your nation suffered ? You should take the lessons of history, nothing lasts forever. Look back at the empires of the past and you see the basket case economies of today, the world is littered with them. Overreach has a price

Not at all Tom but I recognise the trends, You may not like it but the twentieth century was your century and the twenty first century belongs to Asia and you know why?You gave them all your industries and know how. Economies like yours flower and then slowly decline. Don't talk of stock market bubbles, how many has your nation suffered ? You should take the lessons of history, nothing lasts forever. Look back at the empires of the past and you see the basket case economies of today, the world is littered with them. Overreach has a price
I see Japan circa 1980s . It will take decades for them once the dam bursts ;and they won't have that much time. The restive people made a devils bargain with the regime ;and the regime can no longer fulfill it's promise of huge expansion.

The cheap labor they relied on has moved on to other nations in the region. It aint coming back . They tried to pump it up with real estate investment . If they don't bull doze the ghost cities there will be vegetation climbing up the walls of the unoccupied high rises.

Many of the suckers in their "middle class " invested in properties they can't afford . Some are lucky enough to rent them out while they live in people's dormitories at their work place. The rest are about to get a to the skin hair cut .

Get ready for Tiananmen Square on steroids . You want basket case economies ? History is littered with repressive regimes that fail .

of course the US is not in much better shape. PR could have a bigger impact than we imagine. Then there is the national debt that has conveniently and mysteriously been stuck just below the national legal limit for 15 weeks ! I'm thinkin they's lyin to us rubes. How convenient for the Obots in the WH and @ Treasury ,and for Congress .Keeps em from doing something about it and having to listen to those inconvenient Tea Party members of Congress .

Tom get it straight, your republic is a shambles, two hundred years and your politicians have brought you undone. Your debt is legendary but your denial is even greater. As a citizen of the world I cannot understand or agree to your continued support. Literally you are wasting my money and you don't understand this.

My nation has problems but it has debt a tenth per capita of your nation and we are a viable dynamic economy. What makes the difference, An entirely different view point. Capitalism is not dead here, it operates with some of the world's largest corporations, but in an entirely different way.

You think I should endorse your vendetta against China but you fail to realise if you succeed you sink yourselves. You are a hollow shell of what you might have been sixty years ago and all that protects you is that others don't possess your strength

We are in shambles yet the strongest country in the world? Doesn't say much for the rest of the world. Doesn't say much for your vibrant economy either.

We are the strongest country in the world?

What I say to you Tal is all we have to do is take the long term view you will exhaust yourselves fighting your wars long before we will. There have been others who could make that statement and where are they today? We don't aspire to be the strongest country in the world, but in one hundred years we are among the top twenty

You are a hollow shell of what you might have been sixty years ago and all that protects you is that others don't possess your strength

60 years is about right. I'd say 50 years because you can find specific events that lead us on the road to predition. 1955 we were the only economy standing after WWII so yes we were at our zenith economically compared to the rest of the world . It was unrealistic to think we would continue with such an advantage for long.
In fact ,our time of unrivaled prosperity was extended because JFK wisely adopted supply side tax cuts .
But he was murdered and LBJ became President . He began a period of increasing the unsustainable spending and granting entitlements that has led us to where we are today . So it's 50 years .

We don't aspire to be the strongest country in the world, but in one hundred years we are among the top twenty
You certainly don't mind the protective umbrella of the strongest country in the world . In the 19th century it was GB . Since then it's the US. Now you are trying to hide under China's skirts . You think you are immune because your island is South East of the sea lanes where commerce travels . But you are not . Being dependent on any super power brings quid pro quo with the deal. You may not like what they demand.

Whatever, the point is made and accepted. You still posses great naval power and the ability to project it but times are changing

You forgot to include the air and troop power we have while you are accepting the point. What will happen the next hundred years is a huge speculation at this point. More hopeful, wishful thinking than actual facts. Maybe China will help you achieve your goals. Have you asked them? Or maybe that's a century off too!

Be nice if you had a joint military exercise with them. Just saying.

We had both had military exercises with them but it means nothing, We understand as well as you do how wide the Pacific is

Hedging your bets huh? Not bad when you are dealing with two superpowers.

One superpower Tal I don't rate China in the same way as the US

But on who's terms. It seems the IMF who has the least to lose, is the desenting partner

Greece debt crisis: IMF attacks EU over bailout terms - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33531845)


So how did the deal get done? We also know that the IMF are an organisation that insistes on austerity and more austerity this is why the greeks wanted them out of the deal. Grinding poverty is not an answer, it is protection of some golde plated arses in Berlin and Brussles. The Greeks have lost a lot 25% of their economy and who knows what else since public assets don't sell well in a fire sale and $B50 may be hard to find

The Greeks have lost a lot 25% of their economy
They made their bed . They got a taste of what default is and they didn't like it . That's why the Greek government ,who were voted in because of their opposition to the EU terms ,are now willing to accept much harsher terms .

This scenario is coming to the US sooner than we realize if we don't put a reign on out of control spending, and entitlement unfunded liabilities .

In a passionate speech just before the vote, he told parliament: "The Greek people are fully conscious and can understand the difference between those who fight in an unfair battle and those who just hand in their weapons."

Does this sound like someone who made their own bed, The greek ministers are resigning and I expect so will the Prime Minister once the vote is taken. The greeks were dragged kicking and screaming to the conference table and now they are being dragged kicking and screaming to vote on an agreement the people have already rejected.

As to making beds you have made your own bed too, the problems has been obvious for a long time. We have all been living on the magic pudding, Growth, and we should realise, in the long term you can only expect population growth anything else is transitory

229 members of the Greek parliament approved the measures and the greeks are unhappy because the tax collector will get more if he can catch them. The measures also make changes to the way business is done. We all need to take a lesson away from greece, credit is only good if you get something lasting for it