It seems it is time this charlie hembo thing had a thread of its own

The mayor of a dutch city has said what many of us are thinking, not PC but then it is time we stopped ducking the issues and ask whose country is it anyway?

Rotterdam mayor Ahmed Aboutaleb says if you don't like freedom, pack your bags (http://www.news.com.au/world/europe/rotterdam-mayor-ahmed-aboutaleb-says-if-you-dont-like-freedom-pack-your-bags/story-fnh81p7g-1227184231741)

We have been tip toeing around muslims since 9/11 or before but it has to stop, they are offended, but they haven't stopped to realise, so are the rest of us. We are offended they don't like free speech. We are offended that our food has to be halel certified. We are offended by people who don't assimulate, who turn suburbs into ghettos, who make familiar places look like down town Beruit or Badghad, who abuse people in the streets, who fund terrorists, who tolerate terrorists in their midst

Courageous . I hope all steps are taken to protect him. I don't want to see him paying the price like Theo Van Gogh did.

Yes he is Tom and the best part he is a muslim, like some actually get the message, this place is better than where you come from

In the United States today, Christians are expected to accept that the lives of Jesus and Mary and others are the property of artists and entertainers, not just the faithful, and that they can be rewritten (and, needless to say, frequently sexualized) for the sake of bestselling potboilers, transgressive plays, pseudo-histories, literary “experiments” and Very Important Cultural Events alike. Christians are used to having our sacred scripture challenged not only by academic scholarship, but all across the popular press, where the “discovery” of new scriptures allegedly proving this or that shocking thing about Jesus is a media standby during the Christmas and Easter seasons, along with various other creative exercises in the goading of believers. Christians are expected to accept that both our holiest figures and our earthly leaders will be represented in avant-garde art, not only unflatteringly or satirically, but using prophylactics, urine or excrement. And it’s fair to say, I think, that deliberate offense-giving is considerably more common around those Christian traditions that have historically been more marginal or outsider-ish in American culture — Catholicism, Mormonism, fundamentalist churches — than it is around the Protestantism that used to define the American mainstream … though that’s partially because that mainstream Protestantism has faded in influence and verve, and nobody wants to satirize the increasingly irrelevant….
So if you want to argue that Islam’s treatment at the hands of cartoonists and other critics deserves to be condemned, you need a stronger argument than, “self-censorship around people’s deeply-held religious beliefs is the normal Western way.” It simply isn’t; what’s being invoked here is a special kind of protection for Islamic sensibilities, not a universal rule.

Blasphemy Revisited - NYTimes.com (http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/douthat/2015/01/14/blasphemy-revisited-i/)

Unlike the Christians, Islam shoots back.

Pope Francis said Thursday that there are limits to freedom of expression, especially when it insults or ridicules someone's faith.

There are several canadian papers that will not print the cartoon that caused this disaster. I wonder why ?

I-Am-Not-Hebdo

NK, you should have said that in french. You would have had them scrambling for the translator.


It seems it is time this charlie hembo thing had a thread of its own



Hedbo, I think you mean.

J'ai manqué ma chance. :-)

Terrorist win when you take the bad behavior of a small group or individual, and apply it to a whole group. It only took 4 guys in the case of France to get some of us to spout off about a whole religion. I would be with you if it was a larger number of the billion and a half muslims raising hell, but its NOT.

Further this mostly obscure artist was no Van Gogh, but all of a sudden he is a hot commodity? Give me a break. 95% of French muslims ignored his arse and still do.

We sit here in America and lament the shooting of schoolkids, and moviegoers without bringing any religious connotations into the conversation but a person of color always has his religion to blame. Any excuse to holler about what you hate for some folks. Does that and a glass of wine make you feel better?

Even elevating looney nut job criminals to terrorist status is STUPID, since its about the MONEY in the first place. But you just keep making it about another god other than yours, and feel secure in your own fake superiority.

yeah and then the Dutch have woken up and went after jihadists who returned from the battle . Tal wake up . You lefties crack me up. All this defense of free speech . But you don't really believe it . When conservatives are scheduled to talk on campus you don't like free speech so much . When some guy makes a video that parodies Mohammed ,you arrest him. I have for years pointed out how the most disgusting depictions of Christianity is defended by you lefties as art . But when the Muslims get offended then the same western artists should self censor.

There you go again, lumping me in with the ones you hate. You should know better by now. Or maybe you haven't noticed I prescribe no left or right to criminal nut jobs, or race, religion, or creed.

Actions are what speak the loudest, good or bad. The rest is just PC BS! There's really badly behaving humans, and some really good ones and all in between.

Good Luck rounding up all those Muslims, but you and Clete and the rest of the haters are free to waste your time.

Further this mostly obscure artist was no Van Gogh

The Theo Van Gogh murder - Free Speech Martyr (http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/theo_van_gogh/index.html)

Just saying .....

Your terrorists fit the same mold as any criminal organization.

Just sayin'

no they don't . They fit the mold of Islamic Jihadists . They did not murder for financial gain. They murdered in defense of their religion..... as preached to them by their clerics.

They bought guns from gun dealers, like any criminals. The clerics are criminals, as is anyone who orders hits and murders, no different than skinheads who killed prosecutors and judges in Texas or dope dealers on the corner,or Al Capone.

I have to wonder how anyone believes what comes out of the mouth of a murderer. Jihad is the rally cry for crazies, because they know it scares you sh1tless, and distracts you from the purpose of getting what they want.

I mean a few guys with guns got you hyped up and hollering where one guy with a gun shooting an elementary school up didn't. That's a darn shame!

he who must not be named.

Is there something that can be gained by realizing so many of these Jihadists doing the killing are teen and maybe 20-something males?

FBI says Bolingbrook teen hoped to join ISIS - DailyHerald.com (http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20141006/news/141008958/) (from my neck of the woods)

and

Christopher Lee Cornell: The man who allegedly plotted to attack U.S. Capitol 'fulfilling the directives of violent jihadists' - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/01/15/christopher-lee-cornell-the-man-who-allegedly-plotted-to-attack-u-s-capitol-fulfilling-the-directives-of-violent-jihadists/)

How about those Belgians, a little proactive policing of returned jihadists so this points the way. When they go they don't come back, fight a jihad and loose your passport. These are illegal combatants too, is their room at Gitmo for some more stateless persons?

How about those Belgians, a little proactive policing of returned jihadists so this points the way. When they go they don't come back, fight a jihad and loose your passport. These are illegal combatants too, is their room at Gitmo for some more stateless persons?

Thank you for proving my point! Let cops deal with these criminals.

My point Tal is we have to be proactive in dealing with jihadists, not sit back and wait for them to commit mayhem, and that takes profiling of a sort to identify them. The last few days will have seen a number of jihadists dealt with beyond being watched. First definition of a jihadists, fought or wants to fight in a jihad or religious conflict. We should declare all jihad a criminal offense and deal with participants accordingly, a murder is a murder, and intent to participate in a jihad is intent to murder.

Now you're a mind reader? Best let the cops handle it.

@ Tom
he who must not be named. What does that mean?

guessing you aren't familiar with the Harry Potter series .

Do we need to take our lead from something demonic Tom? No doubt you have heard the muslim response to "je suis charlie", "charlie is satan", pot calling the kettle black again

in this case it is appropriate because there is a comparison between the villain of the series Voldermort (he who must not be named) and Mohammed . The west is plagued by this fear of offending the followers of Mohammed . Now JK Rowling has stated she modelled Voldermort after Hitler . But the same appeasing applies today and the series is full of social commentary that makes it a worthwhile read despite your own unfair critique of it as simply being demonic stories of wizardry .

My critique is not unfair that is exactly what it is but we don't need to take our examples from fantasy we have more that enough in the real world, including more than one he who shall not be named, I'll quote you from another fantasy, he has a name it is just that the likes of you are not permitted to know it, which typifies the muslim attitude towards the kaffir.

Once again muslims around the world have demonstrated their unreasoning fear that any person should depict their prophet and the reason for this is that Mudhutmad is a dead prophet, and as they revere him as a lesser god, to make an image of him is a craven image and in their rage they will kill and maim, pillage and destroy. Extremism knows no boundries and so I expect a Fatwa declaring once again the death of charlie and all associated with it

That's an exaggeration Clete about Muslims around the world, and you know it. This is more about YOUR own fears, and hates than an uproar about the depiction of an Islamic prophet, perpetrated by a small band of dissident extremist egged on, fueled, and funded by some greedy arabs and criminals for profit (NOT prophet), and it's a simple matter to just follow the money to realize that Islam is beset by a faction manipulating and stoking the flames of fear that are way out of proportion to the true nature of this conflict.

This isn't about free speech, or religion at all, but the oldest motive in the world, GREED, and power through manipulation. I doubt you ever see the forest for the trees since your view of a tree is so skewed. Take heart though as you are not the only one that's distracted by hate therefore making you but a pawn of the ones you fear the most, and have become ignorantly complicit in furthering the ends of those greedy arabs who subvert a religion and a people for their own gain.

Your short term rants are exactly what the extremists want from you. Clearly your confusion makes the criminal terrorists successful, since you side with the chaos they seek. If you and the rest of the misguided haters didn't give in to the hate, they would lose.

Having blasted you for your hate mongering, I must also credit you for being spot on about the notion of proxy wars, since the devil will never come out and admit his own mischief, but why do you fall for it knowing thats whats happening?

Governor Bobby Jindal is going to make a major address on this subject Monday in London. He will do what Egyptian President al-Sisi has already done ;and what French intellectual Bernard-Henri Levi recently wrote ...calling out the Muslim community to unambiguously denounce radical Islam (if they really feel that jihsdism is an apostate ) ;and to take active measures to purge them from their communities.

Those whose faith is Islam must proclaim very loudly, very often and in great numbers their rejection of this corrupt and abject form of theocratic passion. Too often have we heard that France’s Muslims should be summoned to explain themselves. They don’t need to explain themselves, but they should feel called to express their tangible brotherhood with their massacred fellow citizens. In so doing, they would put to rest once and for all the lie of a spiritual commonality between their faith as they know it and that of the murderers.
They have the responsibility—the opportunity—before history and their own conscience to echo the “Not in our name!” with which Britain’s Muslims dissociated themselves last year from the Islamic State killers of journalist James Foley. But they also have the even more urgent duty to define their identity as sons and daughters of an Islam of tolerance and peace.
Islam must be freed from radical Islam. We must say and say again: To assassinate in the name of God is to make God an assassin by association. What is needed from Islamic scholars and their many followers is a courageous statement of modernization—like the aggiornamento of the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s—clearly stating that, in a democracy, forcing obeisance to the holy is an attack on the freedom of thought. They should explicitly acknowledge that in the eyes of the law, religions are systems of thought with no greater or lesser status than that of secular ideologies—and that the right to doubt them, debate them and laugh at them, like the right to join or leave them, is the inalienable right of every citizen.


Bernard-Henri Lévy: A France United Against Radical Islam - WSJ (http://www.wsj.com/articles/bernard-henri-levy-a-france-united-against-radical-islam-1420760414)

Bobby Jindal also states he no longer wants to be labelled as a hyphenated ' Indian-American '. He's an American.
Bobby Jindal disowns Indian-American label, says hyphenated America is not good - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/nri/us-canada-news/Bobby-Jindal-disowns-Indian-American-label-says-hyphenated-America-is-not-good/articleshow/45915133.cms)

Good for them, but minorities are better served standing for their own rights and not for what everyone else demands they should stand for. Doesn't seem to be enough they denounced the actions of criminals as being wrong after ignoring the actions of the dead artist for decades, and even marching with the protesters, now you demand more? That's akin to the hypocrisy of freeing the slaves and oppressing their freedom for a hundred years before they could finally exercise the freedom to vote, and move about the society as the former masters have done. And that was a hundred years after the master wrote all men are created equal.

Jindal is of course free to have his opinion and do as he pleases, but selling it to an already skeptical population is a whole different matter. I am sure that if Mr.Levy expects a united France, then he also recognizes the many reforms (economic mostly stifled by forces beyond the government control like the economy) the French have yet to make.

Even in America where unemployment among the young is still high, rallying for a cause is a lower priority than say food on the tale. These are globally and universally, conditions for rebellion, rather than solidarity. Demands for support of someone else's causes fall on deaf ears when you have all but ignored the causes of others. Fair perception,or not.

It's a good concept but implementation has problems, because talk is cheap.

Tal why do you ignore what happens in places remote from a incident to say that the arabs are behind it, the wahabbist sect of Islam is behind it and that has taken root in many countries where there isn't an arab in sight. Calls to remove jihadism from islam are actually calls to remove the wahabbists and the many sunni and shiite who want to push forward their sects view. The place for these people and these views is back in their home country and even in those places they cannot be controlled. The fact is Islam is an arabian religion born out of jihad, it will not change because that fight is at the very root of the foundation of the religion. They raise the black flag for a reason, we should remember the significance of the black flag and act accordingly

so you think poverty is the only relevant issue ? Sorry ,poverty does not cause terrorism . Why aren't Haitians blowing up US sky scrapers and randomly attacking non-Haitians ?
The root cause is the ideology of the "religion" .

But you will never be able to convince lefties of that ,where in the dialectic, the divide of the material world is the sole root of all conflict . All that Islamists need to be peaceful is multicultural laws and a generous welfare state.... right ?

To the Islamist ,it's an issue of power . That's why bin Laden was able to recruit some of the smartest jihadists to sacrifice their lives on 9-11. Their grievance was not about material possessions. However ,I do admit that they do know the audience they are playing to ...... so often they cater to what the lefties want to hear about the 'root causes' of their 'extremism' .

All that Islamists need to be peaceful is multicultural laws and a generous welfare state.... right ?

We wish that that is right Tom but it isn't our experernce. Our experience is that such laws just allow entrenched attitudes to remain entrenched and not be dealt with. If multiculturism breeds out jihad then we would have no young Australian muslims fighting in Syria, instead we have the deadliest muslim death cult being led by an Australian. Such people also want to use multiculturism to subvert the laws and introduce sharia law. I would just like these liberal bleeding hearts to crawl back into their hole and enjoy the fruits of their liberalism in a dank, dark, place because if islam gains the ascendency that is what they will be doing

Why don't you two Skype each other and discuss this. Your 'discussion' is getting old. This is already 'gone down the drain' and you both go off topic!!

Why don't you contribute to the discussion so that the topic will not "grow" old. Perhaps it is that you fail to understand there is an underlying problem which is not understood in relation to jihadists and that is their circumstances do not make them do it

You also fail to realise there are more than two people in this conversation. The topic is the outcome of jihadism and my comments are on topic, that someoneelse wants to talk about the weather, or political ideology is not my problem

Ugh, yes I have contributed but I don't argue the point. Both of you need to focus on other issues. Yes I KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON. All I have to do is PICK UP MY PAPER and I do NOT fail to understand that where I live can be targeted AT ANY TIME.

I do not have to be reminded HERE Paraclete !

Tickle this forum is for the discussion of current issues, thus the name Members Discussions/Current Events. If your opinion is to be only informed by the newspapers then that is up to you but there are more opinions in this world than what is found in the media and if we wish to seek them here then we have the freedom to do so, if you don't like the topic you are free not to respond. You apparently live in a liberal society that respects opinions so why do you deny us ours?

We, none of us, live in the best of all possible worlds.

As to being reminded that jihadists exist within our societies, have not current events demonstrated this not only in my country but in your own as well as in other liberal democracies. We are a victim of our openness and liberalism and should you be offended by that comment, it is my opinion given without apology.

Would want this in their society

BBC News - Charlie Hebdo: Niger protesters set churches on fire (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-30863159)

Destruction of the property of people who have nothing to do with the events in Paris tell us one thing, muslims are not rational people but if that is a bridge too far for you, subsaharian african people are not rational people. This may be the actions of a few but it is indicative of an endemic problem that exists in many parts of the world but some parts are over represented and if you look you find extremist islamic views which are giving rise to wider problems in those places. These people want their views respected but it is impossible to respect these views because of the violence and senseless behaviour.

Any fundamentalist view that says others are apostate and therefore should die is unacceptable and there is a failure to recognise this is at the heart of the matter

The topic is the outcome of jihadism and my comments are on topic, that someoneelse wants to talk about the weather, or political ideology is not my problem

Ideology is at the center of the topic..... the jihadist's ,and the western response. It is telling that some in the west deny the very rational that the jihadists use to justify their violence . Political correctness and 'western guilt' is our big weakness .

Agreed, we are too frightened of offending someone, this may come from a litigeous society but I think it stems from a namby pamby attitude of those who want us to accept anything and don't want to hear objections, well I remain opposed to certain things. Say what you like about Putin he puts his money where his mouth is and doesn't easily back down, we need more leaders like this, particularly when dealing with muslim extremism

Our big weakness has been ignoring the geopolitical economic manipulation of certain states/countries. The ideology is MO" MONEY, hidden in fear and drummed up as distraction.

Follow the money!

Our big weakness has been ignoring the geopolitical economic manipulation of certain states/countries.

Your memory is very short. The Jihad of the Sword has been the predominant struggle since the prophet was exiled from Mecca.

Enlighten us.

Our big weakness has been ignoring the geopolitical economic manipulation of certain states/countries. The ideology is MO" MONEY, hidden in fear and drummed up as distraction.

Follow the money!

But you will never be able to convince lefties of that ,where in the dialectic, the divide of the material world is the sole root of all conflict . All that Islamists need to be peaceful is multicultural laws and a generous welfare state.... right ?

I rest my case .

Capitalistic democracy would be a start.

Realism would be a start, do you really think the arabs want to swap the benevolent dictatorships of the Saudi and the gulf for having to do some work but these states are sponsors of the salifisti jihad and the west is happy for them to have their proxy war. The extension of this is jihadist attacks in the west. The whole of this was caused by a capitalist democracy involving itself in Afghanistan and then stationing troops in the Arabian Peninsula, to suggest that the problem can be solved by the same capitalist democracy is to fail to understand the last thirty years

Realism Clete is recognizing the whole Islamic people are not your enemy. Let's start there, and keep it real. Even you have written of the ideology of a small sect being extreme.

Would we be involved in Afghanistan if we weren't looking for a criminal? I doubt it. Not militarily at least.

The whole of this was caused by a capitalist democracy involving itself in Afghanistan and then stationing troops in the Arabian Peninsula, to suggest that the problem can be solved by the same capitalist democracy is to fail to understand the last thirty years
Blame America first . What rubbish ! So you are saying there would be no jihadists attacks on the west if we hadn't supported Afghans against the Russians ;or if we had let Saddam take Kuwait uncontested ? The history Cats is talking about goes back centuries. Mohammed gave his marching orders in the 5th and 6th Centuries AD . Muslim expansion by the sword into Europe preceded the Crusades too by 200-300 years ;and Muslim persecution of Christians before that .

Many Empires have waxed and waned in human history. Some by conquest, some by alliances against common enemies. Before Christianity there was the Roman Empire. They did there own persecution as well as the Jews. And lets not forget the Mongolians, who also took Europe by the sword, and had the largest empire in history for a hundred years or so.

Pick your conqueror, history is full of them. Pick your persecutor, history is full of those too!

Blame America first . What rubbish ! So you are saying there would be no jihadists attacks on the west if we hadn't supported Afghans against the Russians ;or if we had let Saddam take Kuwait uncontested ? The history Cats is talking about goes back centuries. Mohammed gave his marching orders in the 5th and 6th Centuries AD . Muslim expansion by the sword into Europe preceded the Crusades too by 200-300 years ;and Muslim persecution of Christians before that .

Tom where do you get your history from, The Byzantine empire fell to the Muslim is 1453, two centuries after the crusades were over. If you look at wars attributed to Mudhutmad you find they were hardly more than skermishes and raids. Basically the muslims filled a vacuum until they took Jerusalem, which offended the Christians

I was pointing out to Tal that capitalist democracy wasn't the solution it is the problem. This is because it is insensitive to other systems of social organisation. I was not suggesting that aggression shouldn't be opposed. Saddam could not be allowed to take Kuwait because he was expansionist, but america fought the Saudi war for it to serve the interests of capitalist democracy, Saddam was bad for business. That same capitalist democracy backed him in his war against Iran because it suited them, so if we follow their example it leads to bad outcomes. Once he was put in his place there was no need for continued occupation of the arabian peninsular and that is what I was speaking about. It was that continued presence that gave rise to al qaeda

Many Empires have waxed and waned in human history. Some by conquest, some by alliances against common enemies. Before Christianity there was the Roman Empire. They did there own persecution as well as the Jews. And lets not forget the Mongolians, who also took Europe by the sword, and had the largest empire in history for a hundred years or so.

Pick your conqueror, history is full of them. Pick your persecutor, history is full of those too!

Tal, we have no perfect system of government and capitalist democracy too will pass, to suggest it is the solution is to ignore that history you cite. What is happening is we are evolving and this is a way station. What I understand is democracy produces a situation where empass is created and throughout history this republican form of government has given way to empire and a single strong leader.

Can you back that up with fact or a few links?

Well you could start with the Romans and then there was Napoleon, Britain was another example as was Germany, each one of these empires has ultimately fallen. Some had brief encounters with democracy, others longer periods. All were typied by some form of capitalism, that is private ownership of industry. Rome, or the Roman system, lasted 2000 years as it developed and changed others much less. In its first 1000 years Rome conquered the world, it spent it's second defending its shrinking borders. Your own republic, after 200 years, is progressing towards empire, whereas my own nation has yet to evolve into a republic but give us time.

What we need to contemplate is that each of these great nations or empires had their golden age, but have not risen again. It seems they expend so much of their capital, both intellectual and wealth and find decline. They weary of war and are content to be governed by rules that others make

So you are siting ancient history, clete, and no sites as tal asked for. I know ancient history, clete.

Tickle whilst you may have had a classical education I suspect many have not and sometimes need reminding, as to sites that provide historical insight, there are many on the web and Tal can do his own research. If he does so he can then refute what I say if he finds contrary evidence. We have lost track of the thread which was about people of a certain persuasion leaving if they are unhappy with the freedoms we enjoy in western society. They forget very easily that where they come from they do not enjoy freedom of speech but are cloned from birth. As a man thinks so is he