One parent really lays it on the line

Richard Martinez criticises gun laws after his son Christopher was killed near the University of California | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/richard-martinez-criticises-gun-laws-after-his-son-christopher-was-killed-near-the-university-of-california/story-fnh81jut-1226930749050)

and now I'm going to hear a barrage of how gun owners are responsible, and how they have "rights" but don't others have "rights"? and a preeminent natural right that predates something written on a piece of paper? the right to life! But the guy is right, what is happening is some form of madness, deniel in fact of the natural right of every person to live without threat of violence and death

You want a reasonable compromise? no person under the age of 25 years be allowed to be in possession of a weapon. why do I say this, because recent mass killings appear to have been perpetrated by persons under 25 years of age

So are you trying to say that more laws are going to stop the lawbreakers? Sorry but it doesn't seem to be working that way. This is more to do about mental illness then it is about guns. What rights do you wish to give to the mentally ill ?

He was a nut!! Was one for a long time.

Your title of "irresponsible politicians," Clete, hints at a possible cause aside from the mental health of the shooter. I take the opposite view of your solution. Adding marksmanship and safety to middle school curricula would lessen the attractiveness of guns as status symbols. If your score on Call of Duty or Grand Theft Auto was less of a deal, your tendency to refer to firearms in real life would be lessened as well.


Tal has this one pegged, tho'. It looks like his emotional development stopped at puberty.

There are many gun laws already... they are often not enforced as they should be. Tighten up on that issue, along with better recognition and support in the mental health arena, and working towards getting families back on track (which in turn will help with the mental health issue), and you'll see change.

Your title of "irresponsible politicians," Clete, hints at a possible cause aside from the mental health of the shooter. I take the opposite view of your solution. Adding marksmanship and safety to middle school curricula would lessen the attractiveness of guns as status symbols. If your score on Call of Duty or Grand Theft Auto was less of a deal, your tendency to refer to firearms in real life would be lessened as well.

Tal has this one pegged, tho'. It looks like his emotional development stopped at puberty.

the title of the OP were the words of a distraught father of a victim, I felt it encapsalated the problem perfectly. This shooter was a victim of his society and it would seem many people pulled that trigger and I'm waiting for someone to tell us guns don't kill people. The availability of guns in the society is the problem, it it too easy to find that sort of crutch.

Now you want to blame video games, it is interesting that once video games came on the screen kids stopped playing cowboys and indians but in reality the fantasy no longer stopped in the backyard and the joystick no longer felt like a gun and no longer satisfied. tal certainly has this one pegged the emotional development of your whole nation stopped in puberty, time to grow up

He was no victim of the society. He was a nut. The emotional fallout of horror and shock will be exploited as it always is. Your own diatribe is an example of that fact.

Don't you follow the details? he was rejected over and over again, that makes him a victim of a narcissistic society. The end result, he created other victims. My diatribe, as you call it, is on the money, we all have right to safety, it is not the prerogative of the gun owner. This fellow's disorder should have been apparent long before he killed people and it should be that he should not have been able to obtain weapons and he didn't just have one apparently'. But then we see similar scenarios repeated over and over again, and no one takes any action, because the right to possess a firearm is sacrosanct. Where were all those citizens who were shooting back? they weren't there, that's theory number one blown Where was the regulatory system that prevented him from obtaining a gun, that's theory number two blown.

The fact is guns don't prevent violence, they enable it, they enhance it. They do not enhance your rights, they actually subvert them. I live in a place where the politicians did not fear to take action and their courageous action means events like this don't happen here very often. The proof that guns removed from the general community do, in fact, lessen these incidents is obvious, without the citizens political rights being infringed

Don't you follow the details? he was rejected over and over again, that makes him a victim of a narcissistic society.
HE claimed he was rejected. I'm waiting to hear reports to counter that. According to his menifesto, he was socially fine until he hit puberty when he figured out he was short and weak. Those two facts destroyed his self esteem.

This fellow's disorder should have been apparent long before he killed people
He had been seeing myriads of counselors and therapists and doctor for years. So why didn't they pick up on this? Why could he legally buy guns?

Hmmm, Guns. He also hacked to death 3 roommates with a knife. No more Steak Knives and all food will be eaten with a plastic spoon from now on. Opps there goes baseball no more bats, and no more golf clubs.

Hmmm, Guns. He also hacked to death 3 roommates with a knife. No more Steak Knives and all food will be eaten with a plastic spoon from now on. Opps there goes baseball no more bats, and no more golf clubs.

you go to the sublime to the rediculous if you want to. People in therapy should not be allowed to possess weapons they shoudl be on a registry and their homes checked


He had been seeing myriads of counselors and therapists and doctor for years. So why didn't they pick up on this? Why could he legally buy guns?



A terrific question and I would like to hear the answer frome those politicians and the NRA. Fact is they will cringe in the corner like the craven cowards they are before they answer that one. A coward is a person who won't face the big issues


HE claimed he was rejected. I'm waiting to hear reports to counter that. According to his menifesto, he was socially fine until he hit puberty when he figured out he was short and weak. Those two facts destroyed his self esteem.

Here we go blame the victim and not his persecuters, those up themselves women who didn't want to know him. So now every one who feels rejection has to have it confirmed before it is rejection. Yes being short will destroy your self esteem and so will other problems but we live in an imperfect world and most don't measure up to perfect a fact that should be addressed in school, not be all you can be, but be who you are

" People in therapy should not be allowed to possess weapons they shoudl be on a registry and their homes checked"

Hmmm, can't disagree with the first part of your statement but the second part is far out. The government would love if they could get that into law. Not a smidegen of abuse with that law.

you see you miss the point; to be effective law enforcement has to be active not passive, proactive not reactive. It is useless having laws unless you have active law enforcement, you have allowed due process to get in the way of common sense, probable cause to prevent law enforcement, and lobbys and corruption to replace democracy.

The days of the absolute monarch have gone and yet you still act as if he lived next door. There are many reasons today why police forces should be able to inspect premises on the report of various responsible people, medical practitioners and such regarding many conditions including mental condition, drug addiction and so forth. but no you want to wait until someone else is dead and then you can say "what a terrible thing" "Those poor people"

you see you miss the point; to be effective law enforcement has to be active not passive, proactive not reactive. It is useless having laws unless you have active law enforcement, you have allowed due process to get in the way of common sense, probable cause to prevent law enforcement, and lobbys and corruption to replace democracy.

The days of the absolute monarch have gone and yet you still act as if he lived next door. There are many reasons today why police forces should be able to inspect premises on the report of various responsible people, medical practitioners and such regarding many conditions including mental condition, drug addiction and so forth. but no you want to wait until someone else is dead and then you can say "what a terrible thing" "Those poor people"

So in a nutshell you want the government to arrest people based on thought alone ? That doesnt sound like a free society to me. California has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation. Also there are laws here to protect privacy such as HIPAA laws. Summary of the HIPAA Privacy Rule (http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/summary/index.html)

Having it your way would almost be a sure thing that every couple that divorces or has a spat should recieve a visit and walkthrough from the government. Anyone violating any law no matter how minor needs to be checked for compliance. That is not somewhere I want to live. I choose to be free and I take my chances by allowing others freedom also. In this case the system failed. The perp was mentally ill. Dont confuse that with being stupid. From what I have read about it there were chances to stop everything and mis steps along the way that ending in lives being lost. I mourn those losses along with those of my nation.

Well said CDad. What do you think of a tweak in the law that says when a family member calls in a welfare check on another family member we do more than just knock on the door? Maybe a walk through is warranted then. Reasonable as a reaction to family concerns?

One thing that stood out about this nut is how he fooled law enforcement. They could have checked to see if he was a gun owner when the parents called 3 weeks ago, and maybe looked deeper than just a knock on the door.

Well said CDad. What do you think of a tweak in the law that says when a family member calls in a welfare check on another family member we do more than just knock on the door? Maybe a walk through is warranted then. Reasonable as a reaction to family concerns?

One thing that stood out about this nut is how he fooled law enforcement. They could have checked to see if he was a gun owner when the parents called 3 weeks ago, and maybe looked deeper than just a knock on the door.
And actually viewed those videos the parents were concerned about.

I also think it is marvelous that people will go from the sublime to the rediculous or take a point to an extreme to denegrate it


So in a nutshell you want the government to arrest people based on thought alone ?

a statement like that begs the question but to ask it would denegrate you. Don't think that I am as stupid as you apparently think. The smoking gun was there and it wasn't followed up thouroughly, we see the same thing repeated in these cases, the perp was mentally ill and the indications were clear but no action taken. You have to ask why, what stopped them? Inadequate laws, or stupid laws? If the cops do their job and prevent a crime the case will be thrown out because of the presumption of a rights infringement or worse they will be sued, their time wasted and their job rendered ineffective. You need to wake up


Having it your way would almost be a sure thing that every couple that divorces or has a spat should recieve a visit and walkthrough from the government.

here we are begging the question and putting up the strawman. Rule one of undergraduate debate, make the opposition look stupid. But the reality is fireams should be removed from those situations. Once you breach the law you have lost your right to privacy and given the police the right to enquire so have a spat with you wife that gets loud enough to call the cops and there you are

Well said CDad. What do you think of a tweak in the law that says when a family member calls in a welfare check on another family member we do more than just knock on the door? Maybe a walk through is warranted then. Reasonable as a reaction to family concerns?

One thing that stood out about this nut is how he fooled law enforcement. They could have checked to see if he was a gun owner when the parents called 3 weeks ago, and maybe looked deeper than just a knock on the door.

Here is the problem with a tweak as your saying. They went to the location for a welfare check and the did interveiw the person that it was called in on. That is really all the police can do. If you tweak it further then how far are you wanting to go with it? If a welfare check is called in by a disgruntled spouse in a custody battle should the children be removed automatically ? If the person being checked is doing something illegal and discovery is only made by a walkthrough inspection without that persons permission is that ok too? In most cases a search warrant is called for to enter a home without consent unless done during the comission of a crime. We need to be very careful about what we do when we start tweaking the law because of emotions in the moment. Is there responsibility by social networks to monitor whats being said on them - Yes. Should comments and subject matter be examined for dangerous content - Yes. Much of what has been in the news has ties to social media. Part of being a martyr is being know for a cause and being subject to harsh treatment or death because of it. Many of the ones with mental imbalance seem to be on that direct path and leave clues beforehand. I think with those you can act on the clues and check out the situation to its fullest extent. The only way for it to involve the police is for something to have happened and by comments being made in writing that is enough to start the wheels turning and investigate.

ah the voice of reason. but "acting on clues" that infringes the inalienable right to be stupid being defended here

ah the voice of reason. but "acting on clues" that infringes the inalienable right to be stupid being defended here

I think your missing how the laws work over here in this country. What I spoke about infringes on no rights. A person is still entitled to be as stupid as they wish. There are consequences to actions and if your acting stupid then you may bare the brunt of the law for doing so. Stupidity isnt limited to mentally ill. Almost everyone at some point in their life does something stupid. The results vary with each act.

There are different lines between spying on someone vs them shouting out in the public square. It is that which is public that needs to be under scrutiny and not a persons private life until such a time as the act warrants it.

you see you miss the point; to be effective law enforcement has to be active not passive, proactive not reactive. It is useless having laws unless you have active law enforcement, you have allowed due process to get in the way of common sense, probable cause to prevent law enforcement, and lobbys and corruption to replace democracy.

The days of the absolute monarch have gone and yet you still act as if he lived next door. There are many reasons today why police forces should be able to inspect premises on the report of various responsible people, medical practitioners and such regarding many conditions including mental condition, drug addiction and so forth. but no you want to wait until someone else is dead and then you can say "what a terrible thing" "Those poor people"

To point out absurdity by being absurd: I suppose the local ASIS office has a key to your house and vehicle?

They don't need it, but ASIS is not a police force, their concern is national security like your NSA, but I have no doubt they watch subversives closely which is as it should be.

The difference here is how we define subversives. I have long said that muslim represent a fifth column in our midst, a group of people who's true loyalties are unclear. Again and Again we see statements that undermine our values. do they want to live peacefully, only on their own terms. We have laws on immigration and dealing with refugees and asylum seekers, continually we see muslims attempting to flout these laws and when intercepted and placed in custody they act in deniel and even with violence. Do we go to their countries and flout their laws? do we go to their countries and form armed criminal gangs? Do we shoot up police stations? Finance insurrections in far places? encourage people to go an fight in civil wars?

We have just had a report on unrest and murder in a PNG refugee camp. Where did the trouble lie. In the attitude of muslims. in the subversive behaviour of muslims

They don't need it, but ASIS is not a police force, their concern is national security like your NSA, but I have no doubt they watch subversives closely which is as it should be.

The difference here is how we define subversives. I have long said that muslim represent a fifth column in our midst, a group of people who's true loyalties are unclear. Again and Again we see statements that undermine our values. do they want to live peacefully, only on their own terms. We have laws on immigration and dealing with refugees and asylum seekers, continually we see muslims attempting to flout these laws and when intercepted and placed in custody they act in deniel and even with violence. Do we go to their countries and flout their laws? do we go to their countries and form armed criminal gangs? Do we shoot up police stations? Finance insurrections in far places? encourage people to go an fight in civil wars?

We have just had a report on unrest and murder in a PNG refugee camp. Where did the trouble lie. In the attitude of muslims. in the subversive behaviour of muslims

Really nice deflection. Do you advocate putting microphones in Mosques to catch jihadists before they do anything? That seemed to be the thrust of your "pro-active law enforcement" post. What about Tories? Socialists? Blackfellas?

well cats I have no doubt the hate speech of certain muslim clerics needs to be monitored, I'm surprised you are willing to appease them regarding their attitudes to women. What is proactive law enforcement, it is not sitting on your butt waiting for a crime to be committed, but seeking intelligence and watching. I regard our anti-bikie laws as proactive policing, recognising that there are certain groups who consider themselves above the law and targeting them. Perhaps you don't have laws regarding criminal association but we do. Proactive policing is talking to the kids, being seen in the trouble spots, addressing social issues.

You want to know what I think about red necked louts or greenie activists who disrupt public order, a little proactive policing and whether the rioters are muslims, ethnics or abo's the answer is the same, but I don't know who these blackfella's are, there are many dark skinned people here from various parts of the world so blackfella's, not so discernible as they might be in your culture.

well cats I have no doubt the hate speech of certain muslim clerics needs to be monitored, I'm surprised you are willing to appease them regarding their attitudes to women. What is proactive law enforcement, it is not sitting on your butt waiting for a crime to be committed, but seeking intelligence and watching. I regard our anti-bikie laws as proactive policing, recognising that there are certain groups who consider themselves above the law and targeting them. Perhaps you don't have laws regarding criminal association but we do. Proactive policing is talking to the kids, being seen in the trouble spots, addressing social issues.

You want to know what I think about red necked louts or greenie activists who disrupt public order, a little proactive policing and whether the rioters are muslims, ethnics or abo's the answer is the same, but I don't know who these blackfella's are, there are many dark skinned people here from various parts of the world so blackfella's, not so discernible as they might be in your culture.

Your anit-bikie laws dont seem too popular amongust your fellow countrymen.

Queensland anti-bikie laws: Motorcycle gangs lodge High Court challenge against controversial measures - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-19/bikies-lodge-high-court-challenge-against-laws/5332316)


Queensland's anti-bikie laws: We're all criminals now (http://www.independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/queenslands-anti-bikie-laws-were-all-criminals-now,5822)

Your anit-bikie laws dont seem too popular amongust your fellow countrymen.

Queensland anti-bikie laws: Motorcycle gangs lodge High Court challenge against controversial measures - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-19/bikies-lodge-high-court-challenge-against-laws/5332316)


Queensland's anti-bikie laws: We're all criminals now (http://www.independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/queenslands-anti-bikie-laws-were-all-criminals-now,5822)

only among the bikies, us law abiding citizens reckon they got this one right, we want to see the end of these yobbo's anyway the bikie gangs have been taken over by muslims so nip em in the bud.

you really have to learn to ignore media sensationalism and you really need to know who the players are. That article referred to the Finks MC a dangerous group of drug dealers and malcontents. Anyone who associates with them is as we say, on the "highway to hell" and certainly not innocent

Makes me laugh as a certain segment of society apparently believes inanimate object (guns) have sudenlt sprung to life like zombies and are walking the streets randomly attacking living people.

Maybe if the mentally unstable element is locked up like they once were... this would not be happening.

When I was still in scool, it wasn't unusual for some kids to go hunting before school....and have their gun in their car......we never once had issues. But that was back before the ACLU turned them (the mentally unstable people) loose from the nuthouses.

(and before it comes up...and it will, we aren't talking the people with autism, and the others who aren't a danger to most....but the people who actually are a danger to the public that were amoung them)

Makes me laugh as a certain segment of society apparently believes inanimate object (guns) have sudenlt sprung to life like zombies and are walking the streets randomly attacking living people.So why can't we buy tanks and missiles and grenades and heroin legally?! It's a conspiracy!

So why can't we buy tanks and missiles and grenades and heroin legally?! It's a conspiracy!

You ( a private citizen) can buy tanks and old military armoured cars... probibly even in Canada. But it's a very expensive hobby... Arnold Schwarzenegger owns one. So do a lot of other people.

Watch the category, Military Vehicles on eBay just for one. Plus there are websites that specialize in them... you can even import them from eastern and western Europe.

THere are a lot of hand grenades in the hands of private citizens... I don't have any, never really felt the need to have any for that matter... but I could find them if I ever wanted some. A person with fundemental metalworking skills and very little equipment could turn them out very easily. They are typically incredibly crude devices. Its harder to fix a lawnmower.

You might find it surprising but there are a lot of legal machine guns in the hands of private citizens... as well as legal silencers... (and an unknown number of unregistrered ones).

Makes me laugh as a certain segment of society apparently believes inanimate object (guns) have sudenlt sprung to life like zombies and are walking the streets randomly attacking living people.

Maybe if the mentally unstable element is locked up like they once were... this would not be happening.

When I was still in scool, it wasn't unusual for some kids to go hunting before school....and have their gun in their car......we never once had issues. But that was back before the ACLU turned them (the mentally unstable people) loose from the nuthouses.

(and before it comes up...and it will, we aren't talking the people with autism, and the others who aren't a danger to most....but the people who actually are a danger to the public that were amoung them)

Yes and I used to travel with a hair triggered .22 in my golf bag, used it for shooting crows but I've grown up and that sort of behaviour is no longer acceptable.
You can lock up all the peopel you like, you already do and it hasn't solved the problem, funny about that, you would have thought removing the crimes from the streets would have made a difference

Yes and I used to travel with a hair triggered .22 in my golf bag, used it for shooting crows but I've grown up and that sort of behaviour is no longer acceptable.
You can lock up all the peopel you like, you already do and it hasn't solved the problem, funny about that, you would have thought removing the crimes from the streets would have made a difference
We have the constitutional RIGHT to own them... something few other citizens of the world have.

When drugs are smuggled by the metric ton... guns can be just as easily. Then you are at the mercy of the criminals... and any despot that manages to get elected that has enough like minded lunatic followers.

Far too many examples in far too many countries in just the last 100 years to ignore.

THe problem isn't that they get locked up...the problem is enough of the worst ones aren't getting executed thanks to the bleeding heart types (who coincidently tend to have no compassion towards an unborn child) that have so much compassion for someone who has a complete lack of it.

Gang Affiliation should raise any crime to a capital crime.

You ( a private citizen) can buy tanks and old military armoured cars... probibly even in Canada. But it's a very expensive hobby... Arnold Schwarzenegger owns one. So do a lot of other people.

Watch the category, Military Vehicles on eBay just for one. Plus there are websites that specialize in them... you can even import them from eastern and western Europe.

THere are a lot of hand grenades in the hands of private citizens...None can use live ammo though - that kind of makes a difference.

None can use live ammo though - that kind of makes a difference.

Its still a tank and armoured car... without a functional gun , and yes, most (as in almost all) aren't functional.

And honestly... I think you CAN get a license to have one operational... (here in some parts of the USA anyway) I'm not sure where or what it would take. There would just be very few places one could even use it if you could find or afford the ammunition for it.

Part of the Demilitarization process renders the gun scrap (usually the breach is torch cut and bore welded... as they typically don't sell them intact. And there is lots of fun to be had with a tank or armoured car that doesn't involve making things go boom.

There are a lot of actual cannons....( type used in Civil war) in private hands...and many are fired from time to time. (Some are reproductions). But yes, those ARE a totally different class than a rifled bore gun in a tank or amoured car.

But for that matter.....Muskets and muzzleloaders aren't registered and don't have the same restrictions on ownership either for the same reasons.

So why can't one buy a live tank and live ammo? Why not have live grenades available to all? They are only inanimate objects that don't suddenly spring to life randomly attack living people.

Because in the wrong irresponsible hands they are dangerous. Laws prohibit them. Crazy people and criminals are hard to keep track of.

what Clete is really looking for is big government to replace a society increasingly lacking a moral compass. The kid's old man makes movies about teens killing each other in a dystopian survivalist ritual (that's when he's making black and white photos of naked women ) .It appears that Elliot Rodgers biggest gripe was that he was not living the fantasy hedonistic life that his Hollywierdo lifestyle suggested was the norm.
BTW ;he ended the murder spree when confronted by armed men. But as is often the case ;when seconds count ,the cops are minutes away.

It appears that Elliot Rodgers biggest gripe was that he was not living the fantasy hedonistic life that his Hollywierdo lifestyle suggested was the norm.
Apparently, you haven't read his manifesto.

why would I waste my time reading a 140 page rant ? He complained he didn't get any from a 10 year old girl.

Hollywierdo lifestyleWhat lifestyle is that?

why would I waste my time reading a 140 page rant ? He complained he didn't get any from a 10 year old girl.
It isn't a rant. It is well written and makes perfect sense. Who said that about the 10-year-old girl?

Santa Barbara killer Elliot Rodger blamed 10 year old girl Monette Moio for making him hate women - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0GFJbTN0jE)

Santa Barbara killer Elliot Rodger blamed 10 year old girl Monette Moio for making him hate women - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0GFJbTN0jE)
Because she and her friends teased and bullied him, not realizing that he had Asperger's.

well that's a convenient diagnosis. Where is the evidence that he was bullied by a girl 2 years younger than him ? Sorry ;don't buy aspy as a cause.

well that's a convenient diagnosis. Where is the evidence that he was bullied by a girl 2 years younger than him ? Sorry ;don't buy aspy as a cause.
I'm married to an Aspy and could keep you awake for a few hours with the "teasing/bullying" stories I've heard over the years. Kids can be merciless when someone is a bit different.

why would I waste my time reading a 140 page rant ? He complained he didn't get any from a 10 year old girl.
That was NOT his complaint!

has he gone violent ? I know aspys too. Yea I've heard stories of bullying . Not one of the ones I know wrote a 140 page rant and went on a killing spree .. I read his "father's " quotes about how the rest of the world failed his kid while taking no responsibilty for it . That's because his solution was to give his kid a couple of luxury cars and to send him off to some fancy Hollywierdo " Institute " so he would not have to deal with him.

Elliot's train went off the track, not because he was an Aspy, but for associated reasons. It doesn't sound like there were any interventions to help him improve "negative" Aspy characteristics that were his social downfall.

My husband isn't violent but does get very frustrated and upset when his Aspy idiosyncrasies are pointed out/laughed at.

So why can't one buy a live tank and live ammo? Why not have live grenades available to all? They are only inanimate objects that don't suddenly spring to life randomly attack living people.


You can buy fully functional but it is so expensive that almost no one can afford it.



Large Caliber Ammunition - Large Bore Ammunition at GunBroker.com (http://www.gunbroker.com/Large-Bore-Inert-Cannon-Ammo/BI.aspx)

This kids parents had this kid in therapy since he was 8 yers old... he was in therapy almost daily through high school... yet nobody said anything to anyone. How about placing blame where blame is due...his parents were at the top of the ladder. His therapists aren't far behind. Because NONE of them reported him to the authiorities.

And His therapist had a copy of the manifesto 15 minutes before the shooting started....who did they call, his parents. Not the police as they are required to do when threats of violence to others are made.

what Clete is really looking for is big government to replace a society increasingly lacking a moral compass. The kid's old man makes movies about teens killing each other in a dystopian survivalist ritual (that's when he's making black and white photos of naked women ) .It appears that Elliot Rodgers biggest gripe was that he was not living the fantasy hedonistic life that his Hollywierdo lifestyle suggested was the norm.
BTW ;he ended the murder spree when confronted by armed men. But as is often the case ;when seconds count ,the cops are minutes away.

No Tom what I'm looking for is a society that is mature enough to realise that people are imperfect and cannot be allowed to do whatever feels good, governments responsibility is to provide a safe environment for all, this is why we have laws and when laws are found to be imperfect and not achieving their purpose they are changed. It is obvious that gun laws are not achieving their purpose and people are dying needlessly. It is quite probable that laws relating to mental health are not achieving their purpose and there should be greater control of certain individuals, You go ahead and blame fantasy because one person could not recognise fantasy if you want, but the reality is society failed Elliot, his interaction should have been controlled

Large Caliber Ammunition - Large Bore Ammunition at GunBroker.com (http://www.gunbroker.com/Large-Bore-Inert-Cannon-Ammo/BI.aspx)"Inert"
People can't afford them is a cop-out - brokers buy islands for sh!ts and giggles.

maybe he needed a reeducation camp. That's what his father(the man who takes artsy pictures of naked women,and direct movies about a dystopian teen age world ) tried to achieve by placing him in one of those fancy expensive 'institutes ' for misunderstood pampered children of the rich. You know ...the types of revolving door places that Lindsey Lohan attends on occasion.
If you want to say that sex crazed Hollyweird society failed him ,you may have a point. . His expectation was that if he flashed his father's wealth around that he could 'have 'any woman he desired . Why would he think that ? Because that's what Hollyweird is all about . It was beyond his comprehension that living rich in Hollyweird ,he could not get to 1st base .

maybe he needed a reeducation camp. That's what his father(the man who takes artsy pictures of naked women,and direct movies about a dystopian teen age world ) tried to achieve by placing him in one of those fancy expensive 'institutes ' for misunderstood pampered children of the rich. You know ...the types of revolving door places that Lindsey Lohan attends on occasion.
If you want to say that sex crazed Hollyweird society failed him ,you may have a point. . His expectation was that if he flashed his father's wealth around that he could 'have 'any woman he desired . Why would he think that ? Because that's what Hollyweird is all about . It was beyond his comprehension that living rich in Hollyweird ,he could not get to 1st base .

So you are saying the concept of prostitution in hollywood eluded him

"Inert"
People can't afford them is a cop-out - brokers buy islands for sh!ts and giggles.


Dont let that confuse you. With much of it you can load it with what is needed to fire it. Just like reloading your own shells.

Bad A** Tank | Sons of Guns - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-W6iulBigw)

The Scorpion Tank Stings Hard | Sons of Guns - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nq9rXKuj5zg)

No Tom what I'm looking for is a society that is mature enough to realise that people are imperfect and cannot be allowed to do whatever feels good, governments responsibility is to provide a safe environment for all, this is why we have laws and when laws are found to be imperfect and not achieving their purpose they are changed. It is obvious that gun laws are not achieving their purpose and people are dying needlessly. It is quite probable that laws relating to mental health are not achieving their purpose and there should be greater control of certain individuals, You go ahead and blame fantasy because one person could not recognise fantasy if you want, but the reality is society failed Elliot, his interaction should have been controlledHe should have been locked up years ago... and he would have if the ACLU hadn't won the unlimited freedom of mental patients decades ago from a liberal court.

He should have been locked up years ago... and he would have if the ACLU hadn't won the unlimited freedom of mental patients decades ago from a liberal court.
What did he do years ago to merit being locked up?

What did he do years ago to merit being locked up?
He was in therapy since he was 8, and DAILY therapy throughout high school. You have to be seriously screwed up to need daily therapy sessions.

He was in therapy since he was 8, and DAILY therapy throughout high school. You have to be seriously screwed up to need daily therapy sessions.
Therapy for what? What was being done?

So you are saying the concept of prostitution in hollywood eluded him
Not the same . It's about narcissism. The women had to want him to make the conquest a success.
BTW ;he hacked to death 3 of his victims ;he ran down others with the BMW daddy got him. He could've also achieved his goals by being an arsonist and burn down the Sorority House . So this bs about guns is just that . BS . America has had a "gun culture " throughout it's history without these incidents .

You know the answer but will not say it. We have drifted as a society away from God . Elliot in particular was his own god ."How could those girls pick this guy, the descendant of slaves, when they should be picking me, the descendant of English royalty?" He couldn't cope with the fact that he couldn't get a hook up in Sodom.
BTW ,his old man once made a movie where he travelled around asking celebrities what God meant to them. The movie flopped and almost bankrupted him. He then went out and made a success by making a movie about teens who kill each other in a ritualistic survival game.

Therapy for what? What was being done?
It will come out... but its not been released yet... we only know he was in it.

It is known he was a weirdo....he did have classmates try take him to dances and all he did was sit there and stare at women....thats not normal in anyones book. And certainly not endearing to others. Thats on him...not anyone else.

He should have been locked up years ago... and he would have if the ACLU hadn't won the unlimited freedom of mental patients decades ago from a liberal court.

You can't just lock up people with aspergers but you do have to keep their interactions to a minimum


He was in therapy since he was 8, and DAILY therapy throughout high school. You have to be seriously screwed up to need daily therapy sessions

so you think people who are in therapy should be locked up, no doubt this individual didn't function well and his therapist should have been advising his family to intervene. If he was in therapy I expect his increasing frustration would have been evident and signalled at least a warning if not admission

Not the same . It's about narcissism. The women had to want him to make the conquest a success.
BTW ;he hacked to death 3 of his victims ;he ran down others with the BMW daddy got him. He could've also achieved his goals by being an arsonist and burn down the Sorority House . So this bs about guns is just that . BS . America has had a "gun culture " throughout it's history without these incidents .

You know the answer but will not say it. We have drifted as a society away from God . Elliot in particular was his own god ."How could those girls pick this guy, the descendant of slaves, when they should be picking me, the descendant of English royalty?" He couldn't cope with the fact that he couldn't get a hook up in Sodom.
BTW ,his old man once made a movie where he travelled around asking celebrities what God meant to them. The movie flopped and almost bankrupted him. He then went out and made a success by making a movie about teens who kill each other in a ritualistic survival game.

God helps you when you make a commitment, whether a person in his condition is capable of understanding the concept is mute. as to America's gun culture who knows what monsters it created, you have had many serial killers but the gun hasn't protected you.

I just want to respond to the comment about being shy at a dance, the fear of rejection is powerful and if you have been rejected often it is difficult and must have been more difficult for a person in his condition. Not everyone who is rejected in such circumstances is in need of therapy, but the gun culture means that it becomes a solution to a problem whether as a instrument to suicide or an instrument of revenge.

Society failed this fellow because he should not have been at liberty, but he would not have been able to do as much damage without access to guns

You can't just lock up people with aspergers but you do have to keep their interactions to a minimum
No, you don't! You want them to socialize as much as possible and learn how to pick up body language and facial cues.

You can't just lock up people with aspergers but you do have to keep their interactions to a minimum



so you think people who are in therapy should be locked up, no doubt this individual didn't function well and his therapist should have been advising his family to intervene. If he was in therapy I expect his increasing frustration would have been evident and signalled at least a warning if not admission
A 22 year old that's been in therapy since he was 8... on its own is reason to look.. the fact he's ALSO had very disturbing YOUTUBE videos dating back MONTHS everyone knew about is even more cause.

He sent the manifesto to approx 30 people 15 minutes before he started killing people... did the therapist call the police like they were required to do? No... they called the parents ( we know they got it right away... and they called the parents when the police should have been notified). None of the 30 at this point are said to have called the police.

Its also clear from people that knew him that were interviewed....he was one serious weirdo. Nobody that knew him is claiming he was a sweat nice guy they just can't understand what happened. He was a freak....and was always a freak.

People like him should have been locked up and off the streets. But apparently his right to wreak havoc and murder people when all the signs were there for a long time outweighed the rights of those six to have a life.

Society failed this fellow because he should not have been at liberty,
How's this for a concept. There is such a thing as evil and evil people ;and nothing that society can do to change that.

No, you don't! You want them to socialize as much as possible and learn how to pick up body language and facial cues.
I'm sure that's going to be a great comfort to the parents, friends and family of the six people killed by this guy. After all his rights were more important than theirs were.

I wouldn't do it at arms length or if there was any chance they could outrun you. I don't even think California types are that touchy feely they would sacrifice their own children in the name of whatever you would call it.

If he killed one of my kids... and they declared him mentally unfit... and he got off for some more therapy... if he was ever released in my lifetime... he would meet with a 'stray" bullet when he never expected it shortly after he got out.

No I do not believe in the insanity defense... or for mental incapacity. If they were healthy enough to be walking the streets, they are healthy enough to answer for their actions just like anyone else.

I'm sure that's going to be a great comfort to the parents, friends and family of the six people killed by this guy. After all his rights were more important than theirs were.
If he'd been taught to understand body language and facial expressions, been socialized in various ways, we wouldn't be here today talking about this. It has nothing to do with "rights."

No I do not believe in the insanity defense... or for mental incapacity. If they were healthy enough to be walking the streets, they are healthy enough to answer for their actions just like anyone else.
You've never talked with person suffering from paranoid schizophrenia, have you. Or a sociopath.

If he'd been taught to understand body language and facial expressions, been socialized in various ways, we wouldn't be here today talking about this. It has nothing to do with "rights."

You've never talked with person suffering from paranoid schizophrenia, have you.I don't NEED to... they shouldn't be running loose. THEY decide THEY don't need or want the meds... next thing innocent people are suffereing. Paranoid Scizophrenics are a danger to not only themselves...but others around them.

He was ranting about no Popular girl wanting to have sex with him... Well DUH!. he can hire a prostitute if he needs it THAT bad, dad was rich he wasn't from some "underprivleged" family in South Central.... he's not entitled to that from anyone he wants anymore than anyone else's is... which is not at all.

And nothing I've seen or heard so far indicates this is because of asbergers... He was a world class dork with a overactive ego. 30 years ago people would have knocked some sense into him rather than feed his warped image of self worth that lead to this. But thats not politically correct these days.

Cripes...14 hours or more a day playing World of Warcraft? That alone indicates serious issues.

I don't NEED to... they shouldn't be running loose. THEY decide THEY don't need or want the meds... next thing innocent people are suffereing.
But there a lot of medicated paranoid schizophrenics and sociopaths walking the street.

And nothing I've seen or heard so far indicates this is because of asbergers...
Not because of Asperger's, but the first characteristic listed is social dysfunction, social anxiety. Why wasn't that dealt with years ago?

No, you don't! You want them to socialize as much as possible and learn how to pick up body language and facial cues.

That's just passing the buck, if you want to do that then is should be specifically taught as in a special school, not jus throw them to the wolves. It is not our responsibility to take over the training of such a person, it is a family responsibility


Its also clear from people that knew him that were interviewed....he was one serious weirdo. Nobody that knew him is claiming he was a sweat nice guy they just can't understand what happened. He was a freak....and was always a freak.

People like him should have been locked up and off the streets. But apparently his right to wreak havoc and murder people when all the signs were there for a long time outweighed the rights of those six to have a life.
and there it is situational ethics, you can apply this argument to an individual who fails to cope but you cannot see the parallel in the availability of guns

That's just passing the buck, if you want to do that then is should be specifically taught as in a special school, not jus throw them to the wolves. It is not our responsibility to take over the training of such a person, it is a family responsibility


and there it is situational ethics, you can apply this argument to an individual who fails to cope but you cannot see the parallel in the availability of guns

THis has NOTHING to do with guns... there is a Constitutional right to own guns...

I don't see a constitutional right that's as clearly written giving rights to the mentally ill to terrorize the public.

How's this for a concept. There is such a thing as evil and evil people ;and nothing that society can do to change that.

Ah yes but how to identify them, what you are suggesting takes us back to the dark ages, but then no surprise, it is in line with your eighteenth century Calvinist thinking.

I don't think any child is born inherently evil, but evil people corrupt because misery loves company. There is a solution but not very palatable because once you start where do you stop

Ah yes but how to identify them, what you are suggesting takes us back to the dark ages, but then no surprise, it is in line with your eighteenth century Calvinist thinking.

I don't think any child is born inherently evil, but evil people corrupt because misery loves company. There is a solution but not very palatable because once you start where do you stop


Oh I do believe its so... there are people born inherently evil... I've met a few in my life. THe worst one got his head blown off at 18 during an attempted armed robbery....the person he was attempting to rob blew his head off with a shotgun.......I laughed out loud when it hit the news....as far as I was concerned there wasn't a more deserving person. Another is serving life in prison right now.....a few of the others I have no idea what became of them.

That's just passing the buck, if you want to do that then is should be specifically taught as in a special school, not jus throw them to the wolves. It is not our responsibility to take over the training of such a person, it is a family responsibility
Yes, the parents' responsibility, plus special schooling, if necessary, and counselors/therapists working with the child.

THis has NOTHING to do with guns... there is a Constitutional right to own guns...

I don't see a constitutional right that's as clearly written giving rights to the mentally ill to terrorize the public.

There is a constitutional right of the general good, a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, these rights trump any other enumerated right, and don't play the SCOTUS card they are as craven as any other

There is a constitution right of the general good, a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, these rights trump any other enumerated right, and don't play the SCOTUS card they are as craven as any other


Really... so the sane... law abiding people don't have that right... because both can't have it... when the other group lives to rob, kill and otherwise terrorize everyone else.

THis PUNK...more than anyone else in recent decades deserved prison rape.....over, and over and over......but thats never going to happen.

At least there won't be an expensive trial....and even more expensive incarceration or endless treatment bills the taxpay will have to foot. And he's not ever going to breed.

He should have just shot himself first.....and did the world a massive favor.

Really... so the sane... law abiding people don't have that right... because both can't have it... when the other group lives to rob, kill and otherwise terrorize everyone else.

How do you define sane when the inmates run the mad house?


THis PUNK...more than anyone else in recent decades deserved prison rape.....over, and over and over......but thats never going to happen.

noone deserves that and you have just shown how insane you are and why you should not own a gun


At least there won't be an expensive trial....and even more expensive incarceration or endless treatment bills the taxpay will have to foot. And he's not ever going to breed.

He should have just shot himself first.....and did the world a massive favor.

Now on this point perhaps we can agree but not a justification for the availability of guns

How do you define sane when the inmates run the mad house?



noone deserves that and you have just shown how insane you are and why you should not own a gun



He would have deserved prison rape... and it would have been poetic justice... have you heard his video rant yet? Find it and watch it if you haven't. Its all over the net right now. The way he talked like he was ENTITLED to have sex with the popular girls, because HE wanted it, and this was payback because he didn't get it (not his exact words but its close)... well, that goes two ways... he would have found out what its like when someone ELSE wants it and he didn't.

As far as the inmates running the mad house... well, yeah that does happen way too often. EVERYWHERE.

as I said before he failed to understand the concept of prostitution in Hollywood

Yes from the people who gave you MAD to the people who gave you the GFC

THis has NOTHING to do with guns... there is a Constitutional right to own guns...



Show me how your first and second propositions are mutually compatible.




I don't see a constitutional right that's as clearly written giving rights to the mentally ill to terrorize the public.

Not all laws are clearly written, it is called prescriptive legislation.

Show me how your first and second propositions are mutually compatible.



Not all laws are clearly written, it is called prescriptive legislation.

I don't have to... its been written into the constitution since the very begininning.

Nobody really had a problem understanding it until recently... which means tha average intelligence of people has been dropping, because the language in them have never changed.

Not the same . It's about narcissism. The women had to want him to make the conquest a success.
BTW ;he hacked to death 3 of his victims ;he ran down others with the BMW daddy got him. He could've also achieved his goals by being an arsonist and burn down the Sorority House . So this bs about guns is just that . BS . America has had a "gun culture " throughout it's history without these incidents .



Firstly,I see that you and smoothy are still promoting the continuum fallacy.

Secondly. Yes, and times have changed. You have to adapt to the changes because you cannot bend the arrow of time back the other way.




You know the answer but will not say it. We have drifted as a society away from God . Elliot in particular was his own god ."How could those girls pick this guy, the descendant of slaves, when they should be picking me, the descendant of English royalty?" He couldn't cope with the fact that he couldn't get a hook up in Sodom.
BTW ,his old man once made a movie where he travelled around asking celebrities what God meant to them. The movie flopped and almost bankrupted him. He then went out and made a success by making a movie about teens who kill each other in a ritualistic survival game.

Hollywood played an important part in the evolution of your ethos.

You expected a different outcome?

I don't have to... its been written into the constitution since the very begininning.


And when exactly was this beginning?




Nobody really had a problem understanding it until recently... which means tha average intelligence of people has been dropping, because the language in them have never changed.

In other words, you have no idea what I am talking about.

And when exactly was this beginning?



In other words, you have no idea what I am talking about.


When it was written and ratified... that was very obvious.

You are Australian... I wouldn't expect you to understand it as we do. Its not something you live with every day that is the foundation of your laws and your life where you are. And it doesn't apply to you. Unless at some point you emmigrated.

When it was written and ratified... that was very obvious.

You are Australian... I wouldn't expect you to understand it as we do. Its not something you live with every day that is the foundation of your laws and your life where you are. And it doesn't apply to you. Unless at some point you emmigrated.

No it's not obvious. The tradition dates back to the English Bill of Rights. Such a law is at the discretion of a parliament. It is for this exact reason we understand it differently.

No it's not obvious. The tradition dates back to the English Bill of Rights. Such a law is at the discretion of a parliament. It is for this exact reason we understand it differently.
THe constitution isn't a "tradition" and neither is the Bill of Rights. Traditions aren't legally binding. Its not a bill of Suggestions.

And We aren't England... We fought a war to get away from them because we didn't like their way of doing things.

Its also not subject to the whims of Congress or the President...it requires a 75% ratification of the states to change.......and it could be done WITHOUT the input or concent of congress.

THe constitution isn't a "tradition" and neither is the Bill of Rights. Traditions aren't legally binding. Its not a bill of Suggestions.

And We aren't England... We fought a war to get away from them because we didn't like their way of doing things.


I didn't say it was a tradition per se. I am saying it has is basis in common law.

The main reason for the war was: No Taxation without Representation.

I didn't say it was a tradition per se. I am saying it has is basis in common law.

The main reason for the war was: No Taxation without Representation.

That's what the History books say... but it went way beyond that reason alone. That was just the proverbial straw that broke the camels back.

That's what the History books say... but it went way beyond that reason alone. That was just the proverbial straw that broke the camels back.

That's probably true. There are a number of reasons, but the one I stated is an important one.

That's probably true. There are a number of reasons, but the one I stated is an important one.Yes it was an important one... wars are rarely found over a single issue... and that issue is usually one more than the people could tollerate after stewing over other issues long enough. Its just easier to pick one out and focus on that, and why its done so often by so many.

Firstly,I see that you and smoothy are still promoting the continuum fallacy.

Secondly. Yes, and times have changed. You have to adapt to the changes because you cannot bend the arrow of time back the other way.



Hollywood played an important part in the evolution of your ethos.

You expected a different outcome?

Then you have to identify what changed and address the problem there .

Then you have to identify what changed and address the problem there .

I guess that would be a very good starting point.

Then mental health system has changed. There is no arguing that.

The definition of mentally ill has changed as well as how its treated, and who pays for it. Its well documented that many were mildly mental cases lumped in and put with the more mentally challenged and treated/mistreated the same way, and not just with meds, but other physical means that can only be classified as torture.

The challenges of modern treatment leaves many to fall through the cracks of notice, and only crosses a line after they have killed someone. So my question is how a person that had an extensive history of mental issues and treatment buy a gun in the first place? That had to be one lousy background check if he went through it 3 times, in 3 different cities, in a tightly regulated state, don't you think?

I don't disagree there Tal... what exactly was going on in those hundreds if not thousands of therapy sessions... and was the therapist in the wrong legally if there was cause to notify the authorities.

My guess is the Therapists were paid by daddy to keep it all quiet (big money can buy that sort of thing)... and I bet the Feds have no record of his mental issues.

So my question is how a person that had an extensive history of mental issues and treatment buy a gun in the first place?

Street dealers don't do background checks. Gangs don't do background checks. There are so may ways to get around having a check done I couldn't even begin to explain it.

Without violating HIPAA, I'll try to explain my experience as best as possible. I worked the ER the other night. Had a gentleman who was in custody for waving a gun at his wife and then the cops. Funny thing was that he wasn't mentally ill. Just diabetic. You ask, "how does diabetes come into play?" Well, when blood sugar isn't controlled properly there are mental status changes. This man was neither psychotic, nor was he mentally ill when he purchased the firearm. There was no history of violence.

So, now are you going to add a physical health problem like diabetes to the list of people who cannot qualify for gun ownership?

The "history" of mental illness must be documented for it to come up on a background check if a person purchased a firearm in the legal manner. Most people with mental illness know that they will not be able to pass the check, thus they go to outside sources to purchase their weapon.

This fellow did not J, he had history and he legally bought a gun. That should have been a red flag to dig deeper, and the fact his parents sent alarms that should have triggered at least more than a knock on the door.

Given his history, he should never have been allowed to buy a gun, plain and simple, but we know crazy evil, people and criminals find a way and being undiagnosed doesn't help us as a society at all. The background checks failed miserably in this case.

We haven't determined anyone who knew about his mental illness had ever contacted the authorities as they were required to (Therapists ARE in many cases).

There is no requirement to report someone you think has a mental illness, but he does have a paper trail that should have been looked deeper into as it developed. Hell, AGAIN, if his parents had reported him and that fell on deaf ears, what would an outsider saying he was crazy do?

Crazy is no crime, nor is evil, until it crosses a line, from intention to actions. The very notion a 22 year old can buy weapons and ammo who neither hunts or lives in a rural area is unacceptable and I don't care what the constitution says about rights. You let the NRA, and gun nuts subvert common sense, despite the mounting body count.

There is no requirement to report someone you think has a mental illness, but he does have a paper trail that should have been looked deeper into as it developed. Hell, AGAIN, if his parents had reported him and that fell on deaf ears, what would an outsider saying he was crazy do?

Crazy is no crime, nor is evil, until it crosses a line, from intention to actions. The very notion a 22 year old can buy weapons and ammo who neither hunts or lives in a rural area is unacceptable and I don't care what the constitution says about rights. You let the NRA, and gun nuts subvert common sense, despite the mounting body count.

Um... if a mental health professional encounters someone who poses a potiential threat to others... yes they are required to report it.


Stop trying to dump the blame on every one else that had no part in this. HIS parent, HIS therapists... and the people he knew (I doubt he had many real friends based on his video rant) all knew he was mentally ill. In fact 30 people were emailed his manifesto including his therapist 15 minutes before he started shooting people. His therapist called his parents... not the police... in fact none of those 30 people called the police.

Maybe the voting age should be raised to 40 as well.....if he's old enough to serve in the Military and vote....he's old enough to own a gun. and people in the urban areas have just as much reason to own weapons as rural people....What with the average Obama voter that infests inner city regions....most of whom have no use for the law and believe they have the right to take things other people worked to earn. Many of whom despite felony convictions own weapons illegally, but can't be stopped and searched at 3am or almost anytime walking around suspiciously....because they would have been "Profiled"

The definition of mentally ill has changed as well as how its treated, and who pays for it. Its well documented that many were mildly mental cases lumped in and put with the more mentally challenged and treated/mistreated the same way, and not just with meds, but other physical means that can only be classified as torture.

The challenges of modern treatment leaves many to fall through the cracks of notice, and only crosses a line after they have killed someone. So my question is how a person that had an extensive history of mental issues and treatment buy a gun in the first place? That had to be one lousy background check if he went through it 3 times, in 3 different cities, in a tightly regulated state, don't you think?


This article may help answer your question as well as others that may choose to read it.
Anger, violent thoughts: Are you too sick to own a gun? - U.S. News (http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/19/16588357-anger-violent-thoughts-are-you-too-sick-to-own-a-gun)

Thanks CD, an interesting dilemma for sure and something jumped but at me as a valid point I think to consider,


currently only 7 states account for 98 percent of the names prohibited for reasons of mental illness in the NICS database, according to Mayors Against Illegal Guns.

That in itself is a huge inadequacy in my view, given the prohibition some have against a doctor asking if there is a gun in the house before he gives out certain meds,to certain people. Trying to see if this 22 year old was under a doctors care, and prescribed meds. I think its unrealistic to expect some people to know they are too sick to own a gun, and need help in that regard, but reporting everybody crazy is no real solution, neither is just selling more guns, so the debate continues.

He, by self report, refused to take prescribed meds. Will check again for a quote. ***ADDED*** A person close to the family reported this.

yeah and he took that 'killer ' supplement creatine .

we talk a lot about banning substances but why can substances like creatine and steroids be allowed to be manufactured and marketted. We have had numerous reports of people who take these things going into uncontrollable rage. it appears to be two different attitudes in the world; one that says let stupid people do whatever they want to and face the consequences while all us responsible people look on askance, and the other that says some people are not responsible and in the interests of public safety certain activities should be prohibited. I actually think we are locking up the wrong people, we should start by locking up the politicians and the lobbiests who work to subvert.

I personally think lacing Heroin with cyanide before it gets into the country would solve a lot of problems... we could do the same with Meth and Cocaine...

Word gets out they are playing Russian roullett, and abuse would drop significantly... as well as the users.

I personally think lacing Heroin with cyanide before it gets into the country would solve a lot of problems... we could do the same with Meth and Cocaine...

Word gets out they are playing Russian roullette, and abuse would drop significantly... as well as the users.

Not a solution they already know they are playing russian roulette what do you think OD's do, I think we have to decide the war on drugs is lost, let them flood the country with drugs the price will drop. Anyway it is a solution for the unemployed, gives them something to do.

The reality is your society, which showed so much promise, has failed. You explored the excesses of liberty and what did you find there, degradation? death? and now you can't find the path back. You would have been better to have paid the tea tax, within a few decades you would have had self determination anyway, slavery would have been abolished and you wouldn't have suffered that disasterous civil war and all those civil rights problems

We would not have been better off under British oppression...

Today's problem are the liberals who want to give all the wrong people rights they shouldn't have... and take away the rights of people that should have them and that earned them.

Perhaps if we take away THIER rights they might come to appreciate them much more.

We would not have been better off under British oppression...
.

You would have come away with a different point of view, that oppression you speak of would have faded if a proper dialogue would have developed. My own nation grew under what you suggest was british oppression and while we have no love of the pomms for various reasons, we did come away with a vivrant nation. Far as I can see it didn't do Canada any harm either. Thing is Britain spawned some of the greatest nations on Earth, even if one of them is a wayward, headstrong child, there are positives.

It's all right, you stay in deniel, it's one of those United States of America

You would have come away with a different point of view, that oppression you speak of would have faded if a proper dialogue would have developed. My own nation grew under what you suggest was british oppression and while we have no love of the pomms for various reasons, we did come away with a vivrant nation. Far as I can see it didn't do Canada any harm either. Thing is Britain spawned some of the greatest nations on Earth, even if one of them is a wayward, headstrong child, there are positives.

It's all right, you stay in deniel, it's one of those United States of AmericaTHey apparently aren't teaching what the brits really did here that lead to this in the schools.

They may have learned their lesson after we kicked their butts... and the rest of you ended up better off as a result... knowing if they didn't lighten up you all would be next in line.

Look The Brits, ie; military, did bad things back in those days in many places including on their own island, you were not alone, but attitude is everything. You wanted representation in their parliament, a reasonable enough request, but they were not known for dealing with "bloody colonials" in this manner. You had your own local assemblies, it wasn't as though you were devoid of government and representation. I know you didn't want to pay for fighting foreign wars, who does? We are still paying for fighting yours but I digress. An isolated skirmish turned into a war and here we are, some two hundred years later trying to get our minds around what was really going on and whether it could have been different.

Your efforts at disengagement in the world are commendable if a little niaive. If we learned anything from Britain it is leave gracefully because the locals are revolting

Look The Brits, ie; military, did bad things back in those days in many places including on their own island, you were not alone, but attitude is everything. You wanted representation in their parliament, a reasonable enough request, but they were not known for dealing with "bloody colonials" in this manner. You had your own local assemblies, it wasn't as though you were devoid of government and representation. I know you didn't want to pay for fighting foreign wars, who does? We are still paying for fighting yours but I digress. An isolated skirmish turned into a war and here we are, some two hundred years later trying to get our minds around what was really going on and whether it could have been different.

Your efforts at disengagement in the world are commendable if a little niaive. If we learned anything from Britain it is leave gracefully because the locals are revolting

You are forgetting a really big thing about them actually PROHIBITING manufacturing... also their attempts to disarm us, Both meant to keep us totally subservient and dependent on them... Two things not comonly taught about Pre-revolutionary war history that were huge factors.

Besides we EARNED the right to have some attitude... everyone would be speaking German, Japanese or CHinese today if it wasn't for us... and the Trillions we have spent... many cases on people who really aren't grateful for the help, but whoes hands were out for the money just the same.

At that point in History...the Brits got everything they had coming.....we don't regret it.....not even the liberals here regret it.

yeh I know they prohibited a lot of things and were probably rightly concerned that their colonies were getting too big to manage. As far as speaking German is concerned I think the Russians had a lot to say about that, a point easily forgotten, and the Japanese, yes you certainly fought hard there and the Chinese, we haven't fought that one yet. But you have an unfortunate habit of supporting dictators and ultimately having to overthrow them. You didn't learn the lessons of Empire

.

Your efforts at disengagement in the world are commendable if a little niaive. If we learned anything from Britain it is leave gracefully because the locals are revolting
It is short sighted and VERY naiive . We tried disengagement in the past ;and the world insisted that we get involved . That is the lesson of the 20th century .

Sometimes you have to do some heavy lifting, you were very reluctant participants, and then you turned right around and like Quixote you tilted at every windmill in town and tried to slay a few giants in the process, now you have awoken the dragon we will see

we are seeing what the world is like with the dragon on the prowl and America thinking it can retreat with no consequences.

You can't play St. George to the Chinese Dragon, and you can't play in their backyard without an invitation, I think that is the message. If you want to dominate them do it by trade and reestablish those exported industries away from Asia. Haven't you got enough backwater countries in your own region, or do they speak spanish

Aiyaz Husain, a historian at the State Department has a new book out about the decline of the British empire post WWII and the rise of the US global hegemon.
The geographic assumptions in this globalism came to shape postwar American grand strategy. As James Lay, the executive secretary of the National Security Council wrote in 1952 in the pages of World Affairs, the administration had realized early on that “policies developed for the security of the United States have far-reaching impact throughout the world. Likewise, events throughout the world affect our national security. Policies, therefore, can no longer be decided solely within geographical limitations.”

On the other hand ,the Brits saw their decline and tried to hold on to regional footholds.
If I was an ally of the US ,I would worry about Obama repeating the British model .His pivot to Asia is a deflection for his retreat from the Ummah . He of course makes an occasional show of strength to mask the retreat . But what President has boasted of "ending two wars " instead of "winning " those wars ?
My question is the obvious one ...nature abhores a vaccume . What nation will fill it when the US retreats to fortress America? Have fun living in Pax Sinica .

There is no retreat or weakness in lessening military presence for diplomatic and business forces. Only you hawks take guns and domination as a sign of strength, instead of building through cooperation. No wonder you love Putin as a strong leader, and not a bully, or Cheney who had 5 deferments like his bud Romney.

I mean if you haven't won a war after 10 years of spilling blood and treasure, as in Iraq, what the hell are you talking about?

Iraq was won . You're guy lost the post-war .

Didn't work too well for France with Germany... being nice and not being strong... cost US a lot of lives as a result.

Clinton ran out of the country and badmouthed our country. Obama didn't go at all, and badmouthed our country... John Kerry blew someone to get out of his tour of duty after only 4 months... and badmouthed the country, THey didn't even want Joe Biden for medical reasons.....now we know it was for a mental deficiency.

Obama certainly didn't "WIN" anything in the 6.5 years he's been in office... and had more US soldiers killed than that 10 yers you walked about.

And he's going to surrender, rather than win. HUGE difference...

Iraq was won . You're guy lost the post-war .
Iraq is in worse shape than when Saddam ruled. And we certainly didn't win hearts and minds OR inspire democracy.

Iraq is in worse shape than when Saddam ruled. And we certainly didn't win hearts and minds OR inspire democracy.

We can thank Obama for that.

And he's going to surrender, rather than win. HUGE difference...
There's nothing to "win."

There's nothing to "win."
There is everything to win... just like there is everything to lose. That Yin and Yang thing.

We can thank Obama for that.
We can thank Bush for setting us up and taking us into an unnecessary war.

There is everything to win... just like there is everything to lose. That Yin and Yang thing.
Name something.

We can thank Bush for setting us up and taking us into an unnecessary war.


Really... you bought that democrat ppropaganda hook line and sinker?

If W Bush is responsible for that... then Obama is responsible for that mess in Korea that has Millions of troops involved, and not just ours.

Couldn't possibly be that pesky thing called Cease fire agreements... the Democrat narrative is those don't exist, so they can't be violated.

Never mind the fact I was involved in what was happening over there at the time (since before Desert Shield ever started) and saw a lot of the Cease fire agreement communications, those were highly classified communications at the time and weren't made for public consumption....or part of the public record so there was no propaganda value involved in them.... I didn't leave there to come back to the USA until we were well into the cease fire.

David Frum mocks the strawman the emperor and you use.
Option A: Do nothing
Option B: Global thermonuclear war
Option C: Preferred State Department policy

If the emperor was leading us in WWII he'd say
“Some say that our forces should never land on any beaches at all. Others would have us invade every beach on earth. I reject both extremes”.



If Obama had met his stated goals in Afghanistan … if the Russia “reset” had worked … if Iran talks were indeed producing nuclear disarmament … if the president's “red line” in Syria was not being crossed and recrossed like center-ice in an exciting hockey game … if his Libyan intervention had not resulted in Libya becoming a more violent and unstable place … if his administration had sustained the progress toward peace in Iraq achieved during George W. Bush’s second term—if all this had been the case, the president would have been content to simply present his impressive record. But it is not the case.
Obama’s core defense of his record is this:
[B]y most measures, America has rarely been stronger relative to the rest of the world. Those who argue otherwise—who suggest that America is in decline, or has seen its global leadership slip away—are either misreading history or engaged in partisan politics. Think about it. Our military has no peer. The odds of a direct threat against us by any nation are low, and do not come close to the dangers we faced during the Cold War.

Here, Obama is offering not a false alternative but a false claim. In 2014, China will overtake the United States as the world’s largest economy, as measured in terms of purchasing power parity. Measured in nominal currency terms, the overtaking may be postponed until the 2020s. However measured, the economic primacy the U.S. has maintained since the 1890s is rapidly nearing its end. Rarely stronger relative to the rest of the world? No.
Notice too the slippery, multi-conditional form of the president's boast about national security. “The odds of a direct threat against us by any nation are low.” That statement reveals the imprint of editing by aides who understand that indirect threats (such as the implosion of Western-oriented Arab regimes since 2010), threats against allies (such as the Russian threat to the Baltic republics or the Iranian threat to Israel), and threats by subnational actors (including all those al-Qaeda affiliates that attacked the U.S. compound in Benghazi, Libya) are all worse today than they were when the president took office.....

At West Point, Obama opened his discussion of Iran by claiming credit for the sanctions regime against Tehran. “[A]t the beginning of my presidency, we built a coalition that imposed sanctions on the Iranian economy,” he said. Yet the most effective of those sanctions—the Kirk-Menendez measures that isolated Iran from the international-payments system—were strenuously opposed by this president. He signed them into law only after the Senate attached them to the 2012 defense-authorization bill by a vote of 100-0.
Obama at West Point: A Foreign Policy of False Choices - David Frum - The Atlantic (http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/05/obama-at-west-point-a-foreign-policy-of-false-choices/371748/)

And we certainly didn't win hearts and minds OR inspire democracy.
They have held a number of successful elections since the fall of Saddam ;and the people brave threats by terrorist that would have Americans quaking in their homes to publicly go out to the polls and proudly wave their purple dyed fingers as proof that they voted ,defying those threats .

Really... you bought that democrat ppropaganda hook line and sinker?
I was a true Republican back then when I watched Powell deliver his schtick and also Bush talk about WMD and our responsibility to improve the lives of the Iraqi people. How gullible we all were!

I was a true Republican back then when I watched Powell deliver his schtick and also Bush talk about WMD and our responsibility to improve the lives of the Iraqi people. How gullible we all were!

THose WMDs WERE found... and documented...

Your first mistake was believeing anything you saw on CNN.

I saw much of what was has going on day to day... I also saw what got reported by CNN... they rarely matched on very much... CNN was never a Republican propaganda outlet.

Our time in Iraq is over and you neocons need to get over it. Businessmen can afford their own Army.

THose WMDs WERE found... and documented...
When was that?

Your first mistake was believeing anything you saw on CNN.
People dressed up as Powell and Bush to make those presentations? I don't remember what channel it was on, but they were supposedly the real Powell and Bush talking, Powell with his pointer and maps. (I don't watch CNN.)

When was that?

People dressed up as Powell and Bush to make those presentations? I don't remember what channel it was on, but they were supposedly the real Powell and Bush talking, Powell with his pointer and maps. (I don't watch CNN.)

Been a number of them documented over the years... it didn't happen all at once, but it conflicted with the liberal medias narrative so they were "omitted" and pretended they never happened.

CNN were the point people who had reporters who embedded wth the troops... everyone else got everything from them. That's how it worked during the Gulf war (Desert Shield and Desert Storm) They HAD to share everything with the rest. . Everything was thus tainted by their bias.

I'm talking about the presentations by Bush and Powell, not about networks or the liberal media or Desert Storm. "We can't wait for the inspectors to finish."

Understand what a cease fire violation is? Understand what the consequences of cease fire agreements are? Particularly if they are flagrant and frequent?

"We can't wait for the inspectors to finish."

We have been waiting for the inspectors to finish in Iran for years. They have advanced so far that it is a fait accompli that Iran will have nukes.

Speaking of Iran, Lurch says Ukraine, Syria, and Iran are some of the emperor's foreign policy successes (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/05/30/John-Kerry-Blames-Media-Obama-Not-Getting-Enough-Credit-on-Foreign-Policy) that he just doesn't give himself enough credit for.

Speaking of Iran, Lurch says Ukraine, Syria, and Iran are some of the emperor's foreigan policy successes (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/05/30/John-Kerry-Blames-Media-Obama-Not-Getting-Enough-Credit-on-Foreign-Policy) that he just doesn't give himself enough credit for.
We're not at war so far, despite what Cheney and McCain want.

You're so worried about what they are doing over there, and everywhere, but we can't stop our own loonies from killing our own kids. Naw, but the neocons want more of our kids to go die in a foreign land so they can brag how strong they are.

We're not at war so far, despite what Cheney and McCain want.

OK, so explain how they're foreign policy successes.

You're so worried about what they are doing over there, and everywhere, but we can't stop our own loonies from killing our own kids. Naw, but the neocons want more of our kids to go die in a foreign land so they can brag how strong they are.

We're going to war? That's not what our military is for any more, it's new job is to "create a new world order (http://www.stripes.com/news/air-force/biden-challenges-graduating-af-academy-cadets-to-create-new-world-order-1.285882)."

all it has ever created is disorder

The reference to a “new world order” echoed a similar goal set by President George Bush after the collapse of European communism.


Biden described the new order as a world that seeks human rights, free trade and an end to poverty and oppression.Terrible, terrible things to do in eyes of the right.

A "NEW WORLD ORDER" is always totalitarian... or socialist. Neither of them desirable to anyone but the laziest people. Or people with Napoleon complexes

The new world order is a world ruled by eletes. something similar to what you have already experimented with, it is just a way of them pedling their influence. Benevolent dictatorship is never a good thing. Compared with the eighteenth century we have already seen a new world order and apparently we didn't like it. Personally I don't like the republican idea of a new world order it smacks of empire

OK, so explain how they're foreign policy successes.
My nieces and nephews in the military aren't getting killed?

these is an easy way to stop people getting killed stop military aventurism

these is an easy way to stop people getting killed stop military aventurism

Remember that when an emboldened China sets its sites much further south than the Asian Continent, its not if but when since they tend to follow Russia's lead... we really don't want to be involved in any military adventurism.

By military adventurism I mean Iraq and Libya, Granada and Panama, meeting treaty obligations is not military adventurism, that is what the military is for. I think you need to be much more worried about what your response will be when China, who possesses a large land army, decides they want mineral rich Siberia. Which side are you going to be on? the nation that supplies your ally Europe with energy or the nation that supplies your own economy with cheap goods. To war against China would cripple your own economy, this is the place you have placed yourself

glad someone recognizes the potential Chinese Siberian land grab . When that happens there will be a nuclear exchange that will plunge the world into a nuclear winter . Russia does not have the ability ,or the population to defend Siberia any other way.

they have done fairly well in the past and a couple of tactical nukes is no biggy in Siberia they have had bigger blasts, you have avoided the question which side will you be on?

China is the bigger long term threat .

When is this Chinese land grab supposed to start? Is this before Iran blows up Israel? If China gets nuked, who does Australia sell dirt too? Whose side will Europe be on?

China would just be using the Putin doctrine . Why do you think the Chinese have been giving support to the Russians for their land grab ? The precedent is set .

There are many ethnic Han Chinese in Siberia. All they need to do is have a bogus referendum to have China annex .There are many Russian women marry Chinese men because..1. The Chinese have been killing off their baby girls leaving nothing for the men but to look elsewhere for brides and 2. Chinese men don't drink and abuse their women as much as Russians . Besides ;Lebensraum.China has a lot of people ..the Russians have a declining population (except perhaps invading Muslims ). Think of it as their manifest destiny .
As far as impotent Europe is concerned ;they'll go along with whoever wins. What choice do they have ?

Anyway ,the possibility is outlined in the Harvard Int. Review.
Will China Colonize and Incorporate Siberia? | Harvard International Review (http://hir.harvard.edu/will-china-colonize-and-incorporate-siberia?page=0,1)

so Tom you fail to reognise your economy is interwined with China, you would criticise us but our mineral exports only comprise 10% of GDP, I'm sure WA would be devastaged for a while or it might take some of the pressure off and give them time for more sustainable development after all fly in fly out is no way to live. You think it is a big thing but I have a view that inevietably Europe, America and China have to look to their own markets and satisfying their own demand, this idea that we can have the materials and the produce of the Earth circling the globe is nonsense

Its already happening Clete, get with the program. Air and sea.

what is already happening? I know what we are doing, I'm saying it is unsustainable

this idea that we can have the materials and the produce of the Earth circling the globe is nonsense

Its growing Clete. Even in Australia, what do you live in the woods or the desert or something?

Tal I live in an area where even timber is exported to China, I think it is a great falacy that we give them raw materials rather that processed product, we have food produced in China on our shelves, probably from our own produce and there is no need for it, we are self sufficient in food production, what I see is our industries will be destroyed and we will become dependent upon them. You guys don't understand Marx "we will sell the last capitalist the rope to hang himself" it isn't about military conquest, they don't need to do that, but their economic conquest has begun. Russia couldn't do it, too confrontational, but China understands time, they understand that civilisations rise and fall, even yours. Look at the great civilisationsn of the past, they never again rose to be what they had once been and we walk over their ruins today, it is inevietable it will be the same for you

It is a complete falacy that we think that what we are doing today is sustainable and we can continue growing indefinately

Clete there is a humongous room for growth, and despite your claims of our demise we ain't dead yet. For sure if you want to be so isolated, you will not evolve let alone grow. Why so pessimistic? Do you root for failure?

You don't get it Tal, our economies are based on growth but look at the last few years it has been difficult to get back to where we were before the GFC even with the tremendous potential there has been for growth in the third world. This is because we have allowed our manufacturing growth to be eroded in favour of low cost countries. What pulled us out of depression the last time was a world war and we don't need another one of those. My country has done well because of a mining boom but our other industries languish they cannot get the growth and your are the same, low cost competition is destroying what we do have and we have this foolish idea of a free market and a level playing field. It doesn't work that way as China has demonstrated. They have played a different game to us and have succeeded in gutting our industries. No one wants to be isolated but the correct word is insulated. You think you ain't dead yet look at Detroit, now we don't have cities like that yet, but it is coming because Asia hss learned to compete much better than we have.

I see no positive outcomes from isolation ,especially economic isolation. You talk of our dependency on China ? I see it as they being dependent on us.

No Tom they are not dependent upon you, they can sustain their growth from internal development because they are mortgaging their future building infrastructure while you mortgage yours building aircraft carriers, their emerging market will dwarf yours but they are sensible already they are restricting growth in their auto market, they don't want their people travelling about. Their aircraft industry will supply their aircraft, their car industry their cars, etc and they will supply you too unless you wake up. Asia will out compete us all and we just stand by and let them afterall they represent half the world and you seem to have no comprehension of that. That half of the world has a different cost structure, a different work ethic and a very different idea on how to do business

Seems its you who don't get it Clete, as every country is trying to recover from the global mess, and none so far have done any good by isolating themselves or doing just for themselves, not even China. You cannot insulate yourselves from your own problems and neither can China. The only way to grow is to interact, not insulate.

economic isolation = higher prices for consumers ; increased costs, ,reduced competitiveness, lower quality of life .

It would seem that what we have got is destruction of our industries, every week we have reports of a business closing or laying off, our auto industry is disappearing with a market so fragmented by imports it has become unsustainable, our airline industry is in retreat, cheap rubbish litters our supermarket shelves pushing out local manufacturers, smaller stores are closing because they cannot compete and you somehow think this improves the quality of life, what we get is a push for lower wages because we are competing with low cost countries and I cannot see how lower wages gives better quality of live. We have been seduced by a nonsense

You have the same problem we have Clete, corporations run to cheap labor and your government does nothing, as does ours, and most of the rest of the world. Think of that the next time you blast the governments of others, and tout your own as so perfect.

We all sink in the same crap.

My government is far from perfect and the conservative one we have now seems to be a rabid dog, biting everything. If we had a "perfect" government it was sometime ago. What I have said to you in the past is that some of our ideas are a better implementation than yours and just maybe you could learn from that. the reason I keep up the argument is that I don't want what you have to be implemented here and that just might go for both sides of your spectrum. hell, we can even learn from New Zealand and they are a lot smaller than we are
.
right now you have a mood to follow us back to the right side, for us that has proven to have a dark side, so I caution you be sure of what you are voting for

You voted those conservative rabid dogs in, seems you should be as cautious as you warn of us. Its debatable who is following who, as that doesn't accurately define the relationship between countries, or the conditions of our individual countries as we and the other countries seeks to define their own interests and paths to growth and change.

What happened to this Tea Party armed revolution that mentioned a few years ago?

You voted those conservative rabid dogs in, seems you should be as cautious as you warn of us. Its debatable who is following who, as that doesn't accurately define the relationship between countries, or the conditions of our individual countries as we and the other countries seeks to define their own interests and paths to growth and change.

Oh I don't know Tal we kicked a conservative government for a socialist one, then you did too, you have found the experience less than exciting and so did we with the result that we kicked the socialist government for a conservative one and I expect you will do the same. I think the conditions in parts of our countries might be similar if at different stages, I don't think we have hit the depths that you did but with this government who have decided that debt cannot be tolerated we may get there. The problem here is we had a pack of rabid dogs and we thought the other mob might be different, silly us ah for the days before you gifted us with the GFC

True some here have labeled the government socialists but those are some loud voices who holler labels and spew their hate while embracing "socialist" policy and programs they like Medicare for one and SOCIAL security for another. Listening to them and their anti government rhetoric is foolish and unbalanced in REALITY, Clete as well as judgments based on such hollering.

You were robbed as we were and caught flat footed by GFC and we all struggle to recover from it. Indeed if you had a better idea you should have lead the way by your example, but you are as clueless as the rest of the world in confronting and solving the problem.

So how about more acceptance of responsibility for your own pile of crap, instead of laying it at the feet of your fellow victims. I mean you went along with the program as long as the money flowed, like all the rest so too late to holler now. I mean have you smelled YOUR pile of crap lately? Stinks as bad as mine for sure. Excuses why are irrelevant. Clean it up and that should be easy for you so well enlightened. In truth as mature a society as you want to brag about, you still have more growing to do, and global growing pains should be expected.

Wake up from your fantasy of perfection and clean up your own room, before you criticize mine as being messy. And do something about these rabid dogs while you're at it. Easier said than done.

If it quacks like a duck, acs like a duck, walks like a duck, and looks like a duck... its a duck. Todays democrat party is a Socialist party thats ashamed to call themselves one.

John F. Kennedy is spinning in his grave over what has happened to his party.

If it quacks like a duck, acs like a duck, walks like a duck, and looks like a duck... its a duck. Todays democrat party is a Socialist party thats ashamed to call themselves one.

John F. Kennedy is spinning in his grave over what has happened to his party.

Lincoln is probably wondering what his republican party is quacking about.

Todays democrat party is a Socialist party thats ashamed to call themselves one.Nothing wrong with socialism, but since they aren't then that would explain why they don't call themselves that.

Todays democrat party is a Socialist party thats ashamed to call themselves one.
You won't be collecting SS when in your 60s or using Medicare either?

You won't be collecting SS when in your 60s or using Medicare either?

like we had a choice about participation. Just give me what I put into SS now and I'll call it even ;invest it on my own.

like we had a choice about participation. Just give me what I put into SS now and I'll call it even ;invest it on my own.
Invest it? You'd be better off taking it and then investing it, rather than living off it. You can opt out of Medicare, I think.

I have no intention of living off SS. But then again ,the government has no intention of having me live off of it . The die is already cast for some reforms that include means testing .

As for Medicare . .... again opt out after I have paid for it my whole working life ? No one gave us the option BEFORE we started paying for it . Besides ;I'm happy to have money taken out of my paycheck to pay for transgender operations .

Medicare Ban on Sex Reassignment Surgery Lifted - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/medicare-coverage-ban-sex-change-surgery-lifted-23930665)

I have no intention of living off SS. But then again ,the government has no intention of having me live off of it . The die is already cast for some reforms that include means testing .

As for Medicare . .... again opt out after I have paid for it my whole working life ? No one gave us the option BEFORE we started paying for it . Besides ;I'm happy to have money taken out of my paycheck to pay for transgender operations .

Medicare Ban on Sex Reassignment Surgery Lifted - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/medicare-coverage-ban-sex-change-surgery-lifted-23930665)


Yeah Tom.. imagine how many older people that worked their whole lives paying inot the system could have gotten basic medical care for the cost of one HE-SHE transmorgification...

The assumption is that transgendered people have never worked hard or paid taxes?

transformer surgery is elective

transformer surgery is elective

so now it is possile to become a metal object? I want to be a Transam seriously Tom providing a benefit and someone actually using it are two different things and you would benefit from living on SS, you might see how the other half lives

there were many years of denying myself the things the "other half" take for granted .

The assumption is that transgendered people have never worked hard or paid taxes?
SO.. are they offering John Holmes or Dolly Parton Surgery for the other old folks that lived their lives without the ample endowments they always wanted but didn't want to pay out of pocket for it their entire lives untl then? If they don't then they are denying the rest equality.

Vacuum Therapy Penile Pumps | Medically Approved and Insurance Covered (http://www.northcoastmed.com/erectile-dysfunction.html)

You want breast too?

it is marvelous how these arguments go from the sublime to the rediculous I have never questioned whether our medicare provided gender realignment surgery, so long as I get what I need when I need it, I'm not interested if they meet the needs of others, but then we don't have a large population of such people. The idea that a system that serves the general population should only serve the needs of a few is very undemocratic and very orwellian

You can get a boob job if you already have a penis and plan to keep it or get it lopped off... but not if you were born with girl parts already.

That's patently unfair to women... and the old guys that live in old folds home. Unless they plan on killing off a few of the old guys with heart attacks from what they find in the depends.

this trivilises the debate but then I should be used to that, back to the OP which afterall is about whether disaffected youth should be able to kill at will and whether a responsible society should be enablers of such actions

THe disaffected youth... need to be dumped off on a remote island and left to fend for themselves.

Its cheaper than jail... and gets them away from innocent people.

ah yes the ultimate solution....Lord of the Flies and all that, didn't work there and doesn't work now. Until people get serious about the issues and stop just decrying the symptoms you will remain a society which is a training ground for terrorists, becuase this is exactly what these people are. McVieh was trained in a gun totin society in Michigan before he became a bomber and why because the ideas he had were nurtured in that society and it had nothing to do with liberty, defense thereof or whatever and a whole lot to do with just lettin it all hang out

What young people need is discipline, the discipline of a couple of years in the armed forces after high school doing useful work, reconstruction, relief and gaining some life skills and even some trade skills, then they can go to college and get some other forms of learning they can apply. What you have is a namby pamby system that allows these problems to hide in academia whereas they would be spotted in the military

ah yes the ultimate solution....Lord of the Flies and all that, didn't work there and doesn't work now. Until people get serious about the issues and stop just decrying the symptoms you will remain a society which is a training ground for terrorists, becuase this is exactly what these people are. McVieh was trained in a gun totin society in Michigan before he became a bomber and why because the ideas he had were nurtured in that society and it had nothing to do with liberty, defense thereof or whatever and a whole lot to do with just lettin it all hang out

What young people need is discipline, the discipline of a couple of years in the armed forces after high school doing useful work, reconstruction, relief and gaining some life skills and even some trade skills, then they can go to college and get some other forms of learning they can apply. What you have is a namby pamby system that allows these problems to hide in academia whereas they would be spotted in the military


YOu had too many resources, too much space... and too many people. Something a remote island isn't going to be overly abundent with. And we are talking totally different categories of people... back when that was done in Australia... people actually knew how to do things... your average punk these days would have a hard enough time finding food in a supermarket... without an iPhone app to tell them how and where.

YOu had too many resources, too much space... and too many people. Something a remote island isn't going to be overly abundent with. And we are talking totally different categories of people... back when that was done in Australia... people actually knew how to do things... your average punk these days would have a hard enough time finding food in a supermarket... without an iPhone app to tell them how and where.

What do you mean what was done in Australia? transporting people to a remote place and treating them like animals? What was done in Australia was a response to your revolution, they could no longer dump the dregs there so they found another place. But you see it over two centuries breeded an unique ethos
, one which actually says "stuff you"

All you are doing is reinforcing my view of your society. I'm suggesting that the young people don't need to be shunned by your society, which is what you are suggesting but taken off the streets and put through the mill, obviously they would be paid for their work and actually grasp the concept rather than be left to behave like punks

What do you mean what was done in Australia? transporting people to a remote place and treating them like animals? What was done in Australia was a response to your revolution, they could no longer dump the dregs there so they found another place. But you see it over two centuries breeded an unique ethos
, one which actually says "stuff you"

All you are doing is reinforcing my view of your society. I'm suggesting that the young people don't need to be shunned by your society, which is what you are suggesting but taken off the streets and put through the mill, obviously they would be paid for their work and actually grasp the concept rather than be left to behave like punks

Punks shouldn't have their bad behaviour rewarded... doing so gives them an unfair advantage those others that did behave correctly and did the right thing didn't get.

And it's a matter of fact... that even 30 or 40 years ago the average person had a far greater skillset than the people of today have. And the people of 200 years ago would have died off if they didn't have significantly more skills than today's people have.

Example... how many kids tody even know how to plant a garden? Build anything with their hands using basic tools?

Animals deserve to be treated like animals... and in fact... many animals behave better than many people do. THose people don't deserve better treatment than the average person. Otherwise bad behaviour is being rewarded.

And given a choice of being dumped on of a remote island that has limited food and water resources... and the Australian continent. ANyone would be better off on the Australian Continent. They were starting with more... and get enough people with diversified actual work skills... you have a chance at building something... put your average group of punks today in that same situation... they are going to be lost without the internet, and bellyaching there isn't a Starbucks nearby... and wouldn't know what to do with a pile of lumber and a hammer and nails if you handed it to them... much less how to cut their own from trees.

Considering what the norm was in UK prisons back in the day... or wha taverage life was like for the average wretch... being sent to Australia wasn't much different than what people who first came to our country to colonize it. They didn't have much more if any more resources available but what they could make for themselves.

This is the 21st century, and not the good old days when you were growing up when the jobs were abundant and the schooling much cheaper. We have done a lousy job giving our kids the same opportunities that many of us had and take for granted. The skillsets we grew up with and the and the hard work ethic no longer is as adequate for success as it was when I came out of school.

Small wonder they have no outlets to the piss and vinegar of youth when we have not given them direction, and guidance, but criticism and the backward look at how hard we had to work to get where we are.

Still they strive, but we can only pick out the bad examples and broad brush their idiocy with all of them and that's not only unfair but inaccurate and goes nowhere in solving the basic problem of less opportunity to be gainfully employed.

Smoothy you have no more idea of life on the Australian continent than you do of the moon. The people who came here were like your Jamestown mob, they couldn't survive here but they were fortunate they had supplies. They actually landed in a basin from which there was no escape, it took them many years to get off the coast with it's poor, acid soils and no wild life to speak of. I have seen my grandchildren want to plant a garden it is a natural instinct which must be nurtured.

The people who came to Australia had the lash for company, many were political prisoners it wasn't until fifty years had elapsed that free settlers began to come here in any number if they built anything it was under compulsion

You fail to understand that it is your modern society that has poisoned the youth with your letcherous behaviour and its emphasis on electronics and self. You blame the youth, but it is you. it is your greed that took their employment away and left them desititute in the streets. You dare to say to these people rise up get off your arse and follow me because I'm better than you. the fact is the problem is you and those like you

This is the 21st century, and not the good old days when you were growing up when the jobs were abundant and the schooling much cheaper. We have done a lousy job giving our kids the same opportunities that many of us had and take for granted. The skillsets we grew up with and the and the hard work ethic no longer is as adequate for success as it was when I came out of school.

Small wonder they have no outlets to the piss and vinegar of youth when we have not given them direction, and guidance, but criticism and the backward look at how hard we had to work to get where we are.

Still they strive, but we can only pick out the bad examples and broad brush their idiocy with all of them and that's not only unfair but inaccurate and goes nowhere in solving the basic problem of less opportunity to be gainfully employed.

If that's the case Tal... then why has the average quality of education been getting worse to the point few graduates from high school are even ready to enter college today?

THat wasn't the case when WE graduated....and they where wasting a lot less money doing it then too.

THey don't even have a skillset to speak of... and they are too lazy to work hard... neither of those are inadequate for success... they are both indespinsible and today's youth in general lack both... then whine its not fair they have to work their way up the ladder.. they expect to be appopinted CEO out of high school and they actually believe they already know everything they will ever need coming right out of school...

When they actually don't.

If Illegals can sneak in, and manage to find jobs and make enough money to support not only themselves and families here they brought with them... but to send money home to support people back there... then what excuse do millinials have to mooch off their parents YEARS after they become adults? THEY have a better education and actually speak the language (well some of them do at least).

Smoothy you have no more idea of life on the Australian continent than you do of the moon. The people who came here were like your Jamestown mob, they couldn't survive here but they were fortunate they had supplies. They actually landed in a basin from which there was no escape, it took them many years to get off the coast with it's poor, acid soils and no wild life to speak of. I have seen my grandchildren want to plant a garden it is a natural instinct which must be nurtured.

The people who came to Australia had the lash for company, many were political prisoners it wasn't until fifty years had elapsed that free settlers began to come here in any number if they built anything it was under compulsion

You fail to understand that it is your modern society that has poisoned the youth with your letcherous behaviour and its emphasis on electronics and self. You blame the youth, but it is you. it is your greed that took their employment away and left them desititute in the streets. You dare to say to these people rise up get off your arse and follow me because I'm better than you. the fact is the problem is you and those like you

Listen... its not us... its the lazy youths fault... everyone is responsible for what they make of their own life... or if they decide to waste it like so many do... with the freedom of choice comes responsibility for those choices.

I've seen kids born to weathy parents, that attended private schools... piss away every advantage they had handed to them... while thoses of us that attended public schools from poor parents managed to do far better with what we had available to us.

And try and twist it as you wish... the first settlers in our country weren't much different than prisoners... they were fleeing abject poverty and persecution where they came from... only a few had money or connections... you either busted your bum and succeeded or you starved to death... they really had no other options. They likely would not have survived if they remained in their home countries for any number of reasons.

its the lazy youths fault.Do you have children?

Do you have children?
WHat differnce does that make? Lazy is lazy... I knew how to lay brick and block, build a footer for a foundation, do basic carpentry and plumbing besides mechanical work, and everything a person needs to be self sufficient (as a bachelor) before I ever graduated high school and entered college to get my degree in Electronic Engineering.

Few young people today can even find the spare tire much less know how to change it or much else....yet they think they know everything there is to know about everything.

WHat differnce does that make? Lazy is lazy... I knew how to lay brick and block, build a footer for a foundation, do basic carpentry and plumbing besides mechanical work, and everything a person needs to be self sufficient (as a bachelor) before I ever graduated high school and entered college to get my degree in Electronic Engineering.

Few young people today can even find the spare tire much less know how to change it or much else....yet they think they know everything there is to know about everything.
Where are these young people you are complaining about? My experience has been just the opposite. Even the non-white kids want to (and do) learn and excel and learn a trade or go to college. It all comes down to the parents and their rolemodeling/teaching.

Where are these young people you are complaining about? My experience has been just the opposite. Even the non-white kids want to (and do) learn and excel and learn a trade or go to college. It all comes down to the parents and their rolemodeling/teaching.

If they have all these "skillz"... why are they lounging around until they are 30 or more in their parents houses... when jobs are out there... Obama said so, so did Harry Ried adn Nancy Pelosi...they all claimed the economy is doing great and there are 20 some million illegals finding jobs... many of them in the Skilled trades. Not picking vegetables.

I don't see many late teens or 20 anythings willing to break a sweat or get their fingernails dirty until they find a better higher paying job.

And I certainly don't know any that can even find much less replace the fuel filter on their car....much less do anything else.

Sure the parents share SOME of the blame, until they turn 18....but ultimately the youth bear it all when they become legal age....being lazy because you have lazy parents is not a legitimate excuse.

If they have all these "skillz"... why are they lounging around until they are 30 or more in their parents houses... when jobs are out there... Obama said so, so did Harry Ried adn Nancy Pelosi...they all claimed the economy is doing great and there are 20 some million illegals finding jobs... many of them in the Skilled trades. Not picking vegetables.
They aren't lounging around here. And there are millions of jobs unfilled. One of the problems is that entitled white kids don't want to start on a lower rung of the ladder, but expect to be CEO two weeks after their start date. I blame the parents for that attitude. "You can be anything you want to be." (No, you can't. You might even have to sweep floors for a while.)

They aren't lounging around here. And there are millions of jobs unfilled. One of the problems is that entitled white kids don't want to start on a lower rung of the ladder, but expect to be CEO two weeks after their start date. I blame the parents for that attitude. "You can be anything you want to be." (No, you can't.)

Where are these millions of unfilled jobs when the REAL unemployment rate (The U-6 rate) is 12.3%

U6 Unemployment Rate | Portal Seven (http://portalseven.com/employment/unemployment_rate_u6.jsp?fromYear=2000&toYear=2014)

Or are 12.3% of the population commiting fraud?

I do agree by the way that no you can't be anything you want......you only have the chance to try to become it. If you work hard enough...maybe you will, or maybe you won't. Life is what you make of it....work harder and work smarter you get more of it than if you take the easy way out..

Where are these young people you are complaining about? My experience has been just the opposite.

Apparently you have been out of the loop for a while.

Where are these millions of unfilled jobs when the REAL unemployment rate (The U-6 rate) is 12.3%

U6 Unemployment Rate | Portal Seven (http://portalseven.com/employment/unemployment_rate_u6.jsp?fromYear=2000&toYear=2014)

Or are 12.3% of the population commiting fraud?
There's a mismatch in skills. We don't need more lawyers, but we do need more plumbers and pipefitters, more electricians, more postal workers (at least in my town, we do). Would you rather mention at the next party that you are a pipefitter or a corporate attorney?

Apparently you have been out of the loop for a while.
Not in my part of the world.

There's a mismatch in skills. We don't need more lawyers, but we do need more plumbers and pipefitters, more electricians, more postal workers (at least in my town, we do). Would you rather mention at the next party that you are a pipefitter or a corporate attorney?Post office is having to downsize.. dramatically...

I don't consider World of Warchraft or Grand Theft auto as job skills... and a lot of the youth even if they did take high school serious... have no skills beyond playing those games.

If you don't have any skills you have to get an entry level job while you learn some... Until you learn enough to be of value to someone... you just aren't going to earn very much.

And anyone thats reasonably intelligent...adapts to what the job market needs....or moves to where their skillset is needed.

Post office is having to downsize.. dramatically...

I don't consider World of Warchraft or Grand Theft auto as job skills... and a lot of the youth even if they did take high school serious... have no skills beyond playing those games.

If you don't have any skills you have to get an entry level job while you learn some... Until you learn enough to be of value to someone... you just aren't going to earn very much.
Not every kid plays World of Warcraft or Grand Theft Auto, isolating himself from the rest of the world. And I agree that teens and young people have to start on a lower rung and work their way up, no matter what the job or career, meanwhile learning how a company works and how to get along in the corporate culture.

Apparently you have been out of the loop for a while.Not in my part either... and I'm raising some great kids right now.

There's a mismatch in skills. We don't need more lawyers, but we do need more plumbers and pipefitters, more electricians, more postal workers (at least in my town, we do). Would you rather mention at the next party that you are a pipefitter or a corporate attorney?


Much of the problem stems from what is known as human resources. Those people in HR tend to go overboard for qualifications for jobs when they should just focus on what is really needed to perform the task at hand. Just examine local newspapers and you will see it in many ads.

Not every kid plays World of Warcraft or Grand Theft Auto, isolating himself from the rest of the world. And I agree that teens and young people have to start on a lower rung and work their way up, no matter what the job or career, meanwhile learning how a company works and how to get along in the corporate culture.

the trend with legislations and executive orders regarding minimum wages just make it tougher for kids to get their feet in the door . As an example ,the 16 – 19 age group in Washington State has a 30.6 percent unemployment rate;7.7 percentage points higher than the U.S. average of 22.9 percent. So what did Seattle do to remedy that ?
Seattle approves $15 minimum wage - Jun. 2, 2014 (http://money.cnn.com/2014/06/02/news/economy/seattle-minimum-wage/)

the are unreal expectations when employing people for entry level jobs. If you are going to be paid slave wages the only qualification you need is a willingness to work but if the minimum wage is higher much more can be expected

nope ,all it means is that they end up having to compete with the adult labor force for the jobs. An entry level job is just that ,and entry level job with no experience .An entry level job is and was never intended to be a career .

things change Tom not everyone is a world beater some are just glad to hire on and see where it takes them

Portland Ore., and San Bernardino, Calif. , have unemployment rates higher than 50% for teens who haven't graduated from high school.31.4% in Seattle, 39% in Los Angeles and 37.5% in San Diego. Raising the minimum wage will make those numbers worse.

Portland Ore., and San Bernardino, Calif. , have unemployment rates higher than 50% for teens who haven't graduated from high school.31.4% in Seattle, 39% in Los Angeles and 37.5% in San Diego. Raising the minimum wage will make those numbers worse.

maybe not since it is apparent that the jobs just arn't there. you need a plan such as we implemented where those under 30 are required to move to where the employment is, or get no government support. the goods news for those who get jobs over there is they will be paid what their labour is worth, or just maybe they won't have a job. It's a compact that works both ways you know

maybe not since it is apparent that the jobs just arn't there. you need a plan such as we implemented where those under 30 are required to move to where the employment is, or get no government support. the goods news for those who get jobs over there is they will be paid what their labour is worth, or just maybe they won't have a job. It's a compact that works both ways you know

What is really needed is to revamp the education system and get away from this "me" crap they have been pushing and back to producing productive citizens. There used to be technical classes like wood or metal shop as well as auto shop. They taught skills and also gave you some insight into what it would be like to have that type of job. You gained a sellable skill along with an education. But in the new age of teaching our children those types of classes were the first to go.

I agree make them move to the jobs... Most of the college grads where I'm from had to move to find work. I came to that conclusion before I graduated college, and I moved to the work. There is work to be had, you might have to move to find it. But thre are some people that flat out prefer to be unemployed than to move. THose that CAN'T move for one reason or other are a minority of them.

Of course, it is easier to teach "computer skills" and have kids waste their time looking things up on the internet, all we have now are thousands who's only skill is plagerism

Of course, it is easier to teach "computer skills" and have kids waste their time looking things up on the internet, all we have now are thousands who's only skill is plagerism

And they would break out in a rash if they got their hands dirty or had to sweat.

yes I wonder what jobs require the ability to access Facebook

How about being able to access the companies intranet. Computer literacy and competence is a first step in most 21st century jobs, and has been for decades as technology has boomed and manual labor has declined. New skills are indeed needed, by old and the young.

Get with the program. Grocery stores are becoming even more automated.

I don't need to get with the program Tal I have a degree in computing, I was with the program before you knew there was a program. What I know is this kids don't need to be taught computers in grade school, that is B/S

There you go again. You and smoothy bloviating about how you got yours but in facts these kids are smarter than you or I and have been exposed already to new technology and NEED to be educated, taught, and groomed for the skills of now, and not held back by the thinking of yesterday's ego tripping.

Just wrap your head around the fact that kids today HAVE to be smarter than we were just to clean up the mess we made. LOL, even the plumbers and pipefitters have to be somewhat computer skilled nowadays, and digging a ditch no longer requires just a shovel because one guy can dig on hell of a ditch with new tools in the time you dug your hole with a shovel.

Get with the program Clete, as even your computer skills could stand to be dusted off a bit as there is much more for YOU (and me) to learn. You are hardly at the top of the pinnacle, but as far as your thinking can take you. You can't just sit and whine with Smoothy about everybody else, more can be, and has to be done.

what a load of claptrap and old , the kids arn't any smarter, I see no indications of that, that they have learned something about technology I see as a case of monkeys with IBM typewriters. Everything is incremental. Facebook and Twitter don't need smarts infact they are for the very dumb. You think my computer skills need updating, that goes for everyone about every five years, fact is I don't need to handshake with FRED anymore than I already do. I look around and what do I see, posers carrying tablets and Iphones and Ipods, making like they are important enough not to put the thing down for five minutes

These losers might or might not be smarter than you... but they sure as hell aren't smarter than me or clete... or they wouldn't be sitting unemployed in their mommas house whining about how there are no jobs.

If they had any intelligence or any motivation... they would find a job... or create their own job by starting a business to fill a need that someone else isn't already doing, or doing it better than someone who already is.

That's how its always been done... if they were so freakin smart.. they should have figured it out like all of our ancestors did. Or is it they really are a bunch of dim bulbs?

Anyone who knows more than the average person... has a better grasp on what they do actually know... and how much there is to learn. The average high school or college graduate believe they have learned everything they need already... when in fact just the opposite is true... the learning they will need to get through life is just beginning at that point.

it's our fault. We've conditioned them to be dependent to get their a$$es wiped by either their parent ,or the government .

Yes it is your fault, what are you going to do about it

not more of the same.

not more of the same

Does this mean you want to see gun reform?

We can discuss it only after the liberals give up their freedom of speech first. The first amendment is no more important than the second. Take away the second and there is absolutely nothing stopping the rest from being taken away. History has proven that time and time again.

Meglomaniacs like Obama would declare themselves King for life...and his minions would kill anyone who opposed it if the population was disarmed. He's already shown 6.5 years and complete diregard of the law...and his minions fight to keep him from being charged with his numerous crimes. He won't be in office much longer....and the statute of limitations hasn't expired for most of them. So he might still be charged yet.

The good thing is we aren't disarmed....and an armed public would not stand for anyone declaring themselves king.

pure paranoia, I live in a democracy where it is not necessary to enforce democracy at the point of a gun, one of our retired politicians said recently he was glad we did not have the complication of a Bill of Rights, I see no rabid response in the media or anywhereelse, ours is an ordered society based on fairness, yours is a society based on rights, as to order, I leave that for you to judge

Well. I'm glad I don't live in a place that doesn't respect people rights to own weapons and to defend themselves.. when there police and militart have plenty. As well as the criminal element.

You also don't have Obama votors... who tend to be devoid of any moral compass and feel they are entitled to what others have worked hard to earn.

You also don't have Obama votors... who tend to be devoid of any moral compassThese statements can only be made by real idiots.

Well. I'm glad I don't live in a place that doesn't respect people rights to own weapons and to defend themselves.. when there police and militart have plenty. As well as the criminal element.

You also don't have Obama votors... who tend to be devoid of any moral compass and feel they are entitled to what others have worked hard to earn.

Once again you show your ignorance and your indoctrination.

There is more respect for people's rights here than there is where you live, we start with the right to live safe, peaceful lives not intimidated by the gun, we don't have large police forces and we don't have a large military. Today there was an incident in a major city, it didn't result in a gun battle.

You want to talk about a criminal element, your access to weapons breeds it. We have plenty of people on welfare, but we also have low unemployment, we all understand that, there but for the grace of God go I, and while we want them to be responsible, we are not keen to penalise them as you do. Unfortunately some of your ideas are slipping by the net, we can keep illegal immigrants out but we can't keep bad ideas out

These statements can only be made by real idiots.No... only a real idiot can't understand what it means.

Once again you show your ignorance and your indoctrination.

There is more respect for people's rights here than there is where you live, we start with the right to live safe, peaceful lives not intimidated by the gun, we don't have large police forces and we don't have a large military. Today there was an incident in a major city, it didn't result in a gun battle.

You want to talk about a criminal element, your access to weapons breeds it. We have plenty of people on welfare, but we also have low unemployment, we all understand that, there but for the grace of God go I, and while we want them to be responsible, we are not keen to penalise them as you do. Unfortunately some of your ideas are slipping by the net, we can keep illegal immigrants out but we can't keep bad ideas out


Hardly... but then... you have a far different and lower expectation of what you call freedom than we have. And you never had the enumerated rights that we have. We have rights... you have things your polititians allow you to have for the moment... always subject to be taken away on a whim.

You have the advantage at keeping the illegals out by virtue of having a whopper of a natural moat around your country.

If you think the right is hollering now, stay tuned as their numbers keep shrinking and their power and entitlement influences keep dwindling, and they find that others they have denied rights too are demanding theirs. That's what happens when you have lorded over others you have always deemed less than you and demanded they assimilate to your liking, and start placing the same demand on you as they exercise THEIR rights.

There is the hard way of doing this diversity thing, and an easier way... shame they choose the hard noisy way. Changes NOTHING!

They will be assimilated into the 21st century, and like the last civil war, they will lose. Fighting change and calling names is what they do, and all the hollering won't change that. So holler and scream about your rights and our faults Smoothy my friend, and call all the names you want but please get the hell out of the way because we are coming through.

I only say please as a courtesy.

You mean as opposed to the supposed SURGING numbers of lefties and those who love Obama? Despite any proof its actually happening like that? And all the proof to the contrary...

The last two national elections, and the right wing freakout, are proof enough.

The last two national elections, and the right wing freakout, are proof enough.

No... it proved the Democrat party thinks nothing of committing massive voter fraud...

And even with all the fraud... they still barely pulled a majority. That's why the left fears a photo votor ID... it would squash most voter fraud.

It's true that most mass shooters seem to be under 25. I think another good law would be a minimum net worth of 250k for anyone to own a gun. Most mass shooters seem to be lower class and have nothing to lose so I think the net worth requirement would help keep guns out of the hands of angry losers. Some might call it discrimination but I say if you need a minimum income to get a credit card, why not for a deadly weapon. Sadly, Canada just had a mass shooting in Moncton, New Brunswick. 3 RCMP officers are dead and 2 others seriously hurt. Not surprisingly, the shooter, who is still at large is a 24 year old loser\weirdo known for disturbing internet posts and strange behavior.

The early 20s is often when mental illness rears its ugly head.

Hardly... but then... you have a far different and lower expectation of what you call freedom than we have. And you never had the enumerated rights that we have. We have rights... you have things your polititians allow you to have for the moment... always subject to be taken away on a whim.




Absolute nonsense.

Would you like to expand on our lack of expectations in the area of freedom and rights?

Hardly... but then... you have a far different and lower expectation of what you call freedom than we have. And you never had the enumerated rights that we have. We have rights... you have things your polititians allow you to have for the moment... always subject to be taken away on a whim.

You have the advantage at keeping the illegals out by virtue of having a whopper of a natural moat around your country.

as I said earlier ignorance and indoctrination. Our political system works pretty well to stop politicians whims, your rights haven't stopped assassinations in your country but we have only once ever come close to what could be called an assassination. You made a statement earlier that we cannot own guns, that is not true, we can own guns but certain types of weapons are restricted and the manner in which they can be used is also restricted. look, John Howard stated the other day that he doubted that he could enact the gun laws today that were enacted in the last decade but that has to do with the mood of the electorate not rights and it comes with the hindsight that tthe electorate no longer faces the threat of unbridled gun violence.

As to our moat, yes it is nice, but you may have noticed it doesn't stop those who would take an illegal route, but harsh laws on incarcaration does, a convienence for those politicians

Smoothy


Still waiting for you to tell us about how our Constitution works and how this creates "lower" expectations.

as I said earlier ignorance and indoctrination. Our political system works pretty well to stop politicians whims, your rights haven't stopped assassinations in your country but we have only once ever come close to what could be called an assassination. You made a statement earlier that we cannot own guns, that is not true, we can own guns but certain types of weapons are restricted and the manner in which they can be used is also restricted. look, John Howard stated the other day that he doubted that he could enact the gun laws today that were enacted in the last decade but that has to do with the mood of the electorate not rights and it comes with the hindsight that tthe electorate no longer faces the threat of unbridled gun violence.

As to our moat, yes it is nice, but you may have noticed it doesn't stop those who would take an illegal route, but harsh laws on incarcaration does, a convienence for those politicians

As I said... people who never had a particular right themselves... can't fathom why people that do won't give them up without one hell of a fight.