I have two toilets pipes that have been leaking sewer gas into the house I recently discovered.

Both flanges were old, rusted and loose. Took those off. The pipe inserts weren't even sealed at all just loose, took those out.

I'm not a plumber, I have zero experience with plumbing, but out of necessity I have to at least attempt to do this.

The pipes are really old, not smooth on the inside and have a wide rim. Appears to be old lead pipe.

Similar to this:

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8707&stc=1&d=1256263729

My first attempt was to use a new flange with a rubber gasket on it. Problem is that normal rubber gaskets just don't seal inside because the walls are uneven and bumpy.

Then I tried to just use one of those plugs you put on the top with a gasket that you twist to tighten to at least cap it off, those don't seal either.

The only thing that gives an airtight seal are the inflatable plugs from Cherne. I check the seal by pouring water on top of them, they hold the water.

So I was thinking I could try to couple some new PVC pipe to the lead pipe or just remove the lead pipe entirely. I'd prefer to do the former, but wanted to get the opinion of professional plumbers.

I've called two plumbers out here already, but they both had bad attitudes, contrary, didn't even believe I had a sewer gas leak, they couldn't smell anything. Really stupid guys. So I wanted to check online, there has to be some smart plumbers on here.

Hi Jack and welcome




there has to be some smart plumbers on here. your absolutely right some of the best are on AMHD. Are you just wanting to seal the pipes and not install a toilet?

What you have are old led closet bends. If this were my call I would remove the old led bends back to the cast-iron and then convert to PVC using a no hub band. However, if you wish to use the old led closet bends I can walk you through the process. What's your pleasure? Back to you, Tom

Hi Jack and welcome

your absolutely right some of the best are on AMHD. Are you just wanting to seal the pipes and not install a toilet?

I want to install toilets of course, which I've already done, but then I still have the smell. So I had to pull the toilets up again, because putting new flanges on and wax rings aren't enough, there's a deeper problem at work here.

It's a really old house, and obviously the work done to it was subpar to begin with. Who knows, there could be leaks all down the line. For now I just wanted to plug up the end to get some relief from the sewer gas that makes me sick. I have family across the street where I can use the bathroom.

The lead pipe just looks terrible and so at a minimum I want to couple it with a better PVC pipe as to get a really good seal at the end, if not remove the whole pipe entirely or even more.

I figure I could do the coupling myself, wouldn't be too much work. Remove the entire pipe or more of course would be a lot more work involved which I'd have to call in a professional to do.

So I'm just here to get some ideas from the pros and if coupling PVC to lead for the toilet would work without leaks with a product such as what Fernco makes and specifically which one?

What you have are old led closet bends. If this were my call I would remove the old led bends back to the cast-iron and then convert to PVC using a no hub band. However, if you wish to use the old led closet bends I can walk you through the process. What's your pleasure? Back to you, Tom

Right, that's what I was thinking too, might be best to just remove the entire lead pipe.

As I have no plumbing experience, could you give a brief summary of the process involved. How is the lead bend sealed in the CI, how would I remove it and clean it out? Do I need a small torch to melt the seal, chisel/pry it out, wire brush, etc? Since it is lead and lead is toxic, any precautions? I will be using the standard eye protection glasses and a respirator.

They say you shouldn't just throw away lead, you should recycle it. What kind of a place will take old lead pipe?

If it's not too complicated I think I would prefer to do as you recommend instead of cutting and coupling, seems to be about the same amount of work involved either way, and I'd rather just get all the old lead out and be done with it.

The no-hub gasket you refer to would be the one that Fernco makes? The donut? Fernco Flexible Donuts, fernco, fernco donut, fernco donuts, Sewer Pipe Compression Joint Donut Seal, Donut Shaped Compression Seal, Sewer Pipe Joint Seal, Pipe Compression Seal, Plumbing Donut Seals | Fernco (http://www.fernco.com/plumbing/donuts-o-rings/donuts) or Fernco Flexible Multi Ring Pipe Gasket, fernco, fernco pipe gasket, Sewer Pipe Flexible Gasket, Multi Ring Sewer Pipe Gasket | Fernco (http://www.fernco.com/plumbing/donuts-o-rings/multi-tite-pipe-gaskets)

What you have are old led closet bends. If this were my call I would remove the old led bends back to the cast-iron and then convert to PVC using a no hub band. However, if you wish to use the old led closet bends I can walk you through the process. What's your pleasure? Back to you, Tom

Hey, Tom, you still around? Anyone else?

Okay, so after contacting plumber after plumber, most won't even call me back or come out when they say they will. The ones that will call you back or show up charge too much, but one in particular, Benjamin Franklin are serious con men. I'm talking sociopath level here, to charge what they charge with a straight face. The guy from BF told me I should replace my whole plumbing system for $12k+.

So yeah, to recap a little, it's an old house built in 1903, cast iron drain pipes, with a lead pipe at the each end that goes up to two toilets. No plumber even mentioned this as a possibility for my sewer gas issue, but it's what I suspected from the beginning. Given that the flanges were poorly installed also with lead pipes that went down into the pipe which were not sealed at all, just loosely placed in there. It's as if they had no concept of gas escaping, or didn't care, as long as the water and waste went down. So I thought the lead pipe connected to the cast iron, like the flange, was not fully sealed. It appears to be the case, as after I lowered the Cherne inflatable rubber plug down below the lead pipe, right before the connection of the lead to cast iron, and inflated it there to create a seal in the cast iron pipe, the smell seems to have abated, finally. I will know for certain in the next few hours and tomorrow, but I can already tell a difference.

So, what is the easiest way to remove these lead end pipes? They're only about 1-2 feet in length. Can I just pry them out or what?

I believe Fernco makes a gasket that will fit in the end of the cast iron pipe and then I can just push fit a 4" PVC pipe in there cut to length?

Thanks.

How much of the lead bends overlap on the floor? Do the overlaps go all the way around the hole? Let me know. Tom

How much of the lead bends overlap on the floor? Do the overlaps go all the way around the hole? Let me know. Tom

The rim overlaps the subfloor about 1/4-1/2 inch maybe most of the way around. It wouldn't just fall through if I cut it, would have to bend them up to pull it down or cut it and pull it up and out. Although there are a few points around it that you can see through to under the house.

This is important! Continue get a lead lip completely around the toilet hole? Back to you, Tom

This is important! Continue get a lead lip completely around the toilet hole? Back to you, Tom

What do you mean? Elaborate.

I want to remove the lead pipe entirely as it's poorly installed into the cast iron and the whole system is over 100 years old, okay. I don't want to keep it. I want to remove it.

My question to you or anyone else is what's the best way to remove the old lead pipe? Is it better to try to remove the lead pipe or just cut the cast iron before the hub and attach new PVC to it with a flexible coupling?

Hi Jack

There is big bump (caulking ferrule) in the lead pipe just before the pipe enters the cast iron hub. Cut the pipe just behind the bump (closest to cast iron hub) and see if you are left with a nice brass piece of pipe. If you are left with a nice brass piece of pipe use a SHIELDED 4-band husky clamp (see image to join the brass pipe to new PVC pipe and you should be all set here!

If the pipe is soft at the cut after you make the cut then drill the lead out around the pipe going into the cast iron hub and pry the old lead out...use the donut you posted to start the PVC work (post back for help here if needed).

Mark

Hi Jack

There is big bump (caulking ferrule) in the lead pipe just before the pipe enters the cast iron hub. Cut the pipe just behind the bump (closest to cast iron hub) and see if you are left with a nice brass piece of pipe. If you are left with a nice brass piece of pipe use a SHIELDED 4-band husky clamp (see image to join the brass pipe to new PVC pipe and you should be all set here!

If the pipe is soft at the cut after you make the cut then drill the lead out around the pipe going into the cast iron hub and pry the old lead out...use the donut you posted to start the PVC work (post back for help here if needed).

Mark

Would it be as good and functional to just cut the cast iron before the hub and then use a flexible coupling with 4" PVC to it? Might be less work than what you mentioned and personally I don't want to play around with lead.

I already have a reciprocating saw and they sell a blade that cuts CI at HD for $15.

Thanks for the reply.

Jack,
There are several options for making a repair that will provide an odor proof, water tight seal, and cutting the cast iron as you have described will work just fine. Please make sure the pipe is supported properly before you attack, and wear safety equipment - glasses, gloves, ear protection, and coveralls... you can also perform a peppermint test when you are done to make sure you don't have any other leak issues. Peppermint has a more pleasant odor trail than sewer gas, and, sewer gas, and its escape can be intermitent; you have control of the peppermint...

Hi Jack

Apparently you did not CAREFULLY read what I wrote to you...

In my first sentence, I said, "There is big bump (caulking ferrule) in the lead pipe just before the pipe enters the cast iron hub."

In my second sentence, I said, " Cut the pipe just behind the bump (closest to cast iron hub) and see if you are left with a nice brass piece of pipe"

In my third sentence, I said, "If you are left with a nice brass piece of pipe use a SHIELDED 4-band husky clamp (see image) to join the brass pipe to new PVC pipe and you should be all set here!"

I just don't see how to make that any clearer?? Do you understand now?

If you had a lead lip from the closet bend I was going to give you instructed on how to reset the toilet using the lead closet bends. However, if you wish to replace the closet bends follow marks advise. Good luck, Tom

Jack,
There are several options for making a repair that will provide an odor proof, water tight seal, and cutting the cast iron as you have described will work just fine. Please make sure the pipe is supported properly before you attack, and wear safety equipment - glasses, gloves, ear protection, and coveralls... you can also perform a peppermint test when you are done to make sure you don't have any other leak issues. Peppermint has a more pleasant odor trail than sewer gas, and, sewer gas, and its escape can be intermitent; you have control of the peppermint...

I'm going full bore and ordered a smoke test from American Leak Detection. This house is 111 years old, and the cast iron and lead pipes are probably original. So I want to test the whole thing, my health is worth the $350. Then I'll proceed with fixing all the leaks.

You know what's funny is how many plumbers have no idea what a smoke test is. One after the other I called to get an estimate had no clue, didn't know it existed. Sad really.

So I decided to go with a company that specializes in doing detection, even though they don't fix the leaks. They should at least know exactly how to perform the test and mark the leaks.

I read about the peppermint thing, but I know I have a leak and it comes through the whole house. Would really just be a waste of time. Smoke is visible, so you can see exactly where it's seeping out from.

Thanks for the advice.

Jack,
I've only been involved in one smoke test in my 45 year career, and , yes, it was effective; it revealed several leaks that were buried behind plastered, tiled walls, and it resulted in a complete replacement of all the dwv piping in the home.
I would suggest repairing the obvious leaks, and then spend $ 8.00 on a bottle of oil of peppermint before committing to the more expensive smoke test.
Thanks for coming here with your experiences; when ideas, tips, techniques, opinions, and criticism is shared, there is an opportunity for learning...

Jack,
I've only been involved in one smoke test in my 45 year career, and , yes, it was effective; it revealed several leaks that were buried behind plastered, tiled walls, and it resulted in a complete replacement of all the dwv piping in the home.
I would suggest repairing the obvious leaks, and then spend $ 8.00 on a bottle of oil of peppermint before committing to the more expensive smoke test.
Thanks for coming here with your experiences; when ideas, tips, techniques, opinions, and criticism is shared, there is an opportunity for learning...

I've never done plumbing in my life, yet I know about it. I guess most plumbers just don't do any research into their profession, they just do the typical labor and are never curious about all the options.

As far as I know the smoke test is the most effective option there is. Even the camera test isn't as effective, because you can't always see small leaks with the camera, but smoke finds it's way through even the smallest opening.

Here the camera and smoke are the same price. I could actually buy a smoke machine myself for about $400, but I don't want to fool with it really.

Like I already said, I can smell the sewer gas, which is what the oil does, gives you a hint of where the leak is, but that's all it is, just a hint, you're still guessing exactly where it is. The smoke tells you exactly where it is. Totally worth the extra money, and I've been suffering from this for far too long, time to get serious and hire the right people.

Smoke test is the right decision, because of its accuracy and I won't have to call out plumbers more than once to guess at what the repair is, then have to call them back again because it wasn't fixed. Overall it will be cheaper using the smoke test.

Here's how you know the smoke test is worth it: Cities don't use peppermint oil to test their sewer lines, they use the smoke test. Done deal.