What is the REAL reason for the Federal Bureau of Land Management(BLM) for sending over 200 armed personnel (some armed with sniper weapons ) ,and helicopters to surround the land that the Bundy family has had grazing rights on since 1870 ? No it has nothing to do with the 'endangered ' desert tortoise (although that is their latest rationale ) . Heck just last year they were willing to exterminate some of the critters.

Here is a hint. The land in dispute is in Nevada . That means that Sen Harry Reid has got to have his corrupt dirty paws in there somehow. You see , Reid took a junket to China and became enamored with the operations of a Chinese energy company called ENN Energy Holdings and decided it would be a great idea if he could bring this company to Nevada to create a $5 billion solar farm and manufacturing facility . His son Rory Reid is the lawyer representing ENN's interest in this project .
And where would this project be located ? Yes ,on the very land that Rancher Cliven Bundy (and 50+ other ranchers who have already been evicted ) has used for multiple generations .
U.S. Senator Reid, son combine for China firm's desert plant | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/31/us-usa-china-reid-solar-idUSBRE87U06D20120831)


The tortoise wasn’t of concern when Reid worked with BLM to literally change the boundaries of the tortoise’s habitat to accommodate the development of his top donor, Harvey Whittemore ;and it is not a concern in this case either .If anything ,concern for the tortoise would prevent the construction of a massive solar farm on the site (solar panels have a way of frying critters) . The restrictions for the tortoise were waved for the solar project ;and the land is to be sold to ENN for 1/8 it's market value.
The head of BLM is Neil Kornze ,who by no coincidence served on Reid's Senate staff until he was appointed to BLM
Neil Kornze, Principal Deputy Director, Bureau of Land Management (http://www.doi.gov/whoweare/blm-dir.cfm)

You will also hear that the reason they are evicting him is that he has not paid his lease fees for years . That is true. It is also true that paying the fees did not protect the other ranchers already evicted . Bundy paid lease fees to Clark County, Nevada in an arrangement pre-dating the BLM. The BLM arrived much later, changed the details of the setup without consulting anyone ; and then began driving out cattle and ranchers. Bundy refused to pay BLM, especially after they demanded he reduce his herd’s head count . Bundy OWNS the water and forage rights to this land. He paid for these rights. He built fences, established water ways, and constructed roads with his own money, with the approval of Nevada and BLM. When BLM started increasing his fees to run him off the land and harass him, he ceased paying.

There is now a standoff . The Feds have already taken down one of Bundy's sons (with dogs) for daring to video them . The other son was tasered. They have taken down cell phone service in the area and has declared the whole area a no-fly zone. They have hired local cowboys to round up Bundy's cattle .

Local ranchers have gathered in a show of support ,and local militias are converging on the site.
It could get messy ....another Ruby Ridge ? another Waco ? .

The problem is that Bundy is not a big Reid donor.

What is going on there is just the tip of the iceberg as far as many people are concerned with this governments over reaching into peoples lives and the outright greed. If they werent planning this then why have the bought so much ammo recently beyond what what used in the wars of Afghanastan and Iraq. This administration is looking to push buttons. Its part of what has been going on since the anointed one took office. This nation has never been so divided.

The desert tortiose has been on many lists to justify the closing and use of lands. They used that same excuse for closing down the baja 500. My fear is that this may have a ripple effect that forces its way through and pushs things over the end and we will lose this country. Their concern isnt for the cattle as they are killing the cattle off by running them till they die. Its very sad.

Could this be the next step in the tinfoil hat crowd's Martial Law scenario? The one where the 2016 elections don't ever happen?

sounds like a good ole fashioned range war to me, the ranchers verses the new commers and with help from vigilantes and gunslingers they may turn this into a shootin war. I fail to understand the way things work over there, what ever happened to making a fair offer

Could this be the next step in the tinfoil hat crowd's Martial Law scenario? The one where the 2016 elections don't ever happen?


Why is it tinfoil hat theory when it could happen ? You might have said the same if a few weeks back I said a 777 would disappear and nobody would find it. There are things that are happening right in front of our eyes and everyone should be paying attention to those things so it doesnt get out of hand.

That's exactly the argument that land owners and ranchers are making about the building of the keystone pipeline. However I noticed that this has gone through courts and fines are outstanding so as politically charged as the issue is, executing a lawful court order after decades of litigation on FEDERAL lands seems to be a valid next step process.

19 years later, Cliven Bundy ordered to remove trespass cattle or face seizure by BLM | The Wildlife News (http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2013/08/01/19-years-later-cliven-bundy-ordered-to-remove-trespass-cattle-or-face-seizure-by-blm/)

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Order-US-v.-Bundy-7-9-13.pdf

putting a pipeline through farmlands that in no way disrupts the farmer's ability to earn a living is much different than the Feds evicting ranchers off Federal lands to accommodate the desires and wealth of the Reid family .

it is comical that the Feds use the 'trespass ' canard when they refusing to enforce laws to prevent millions illegals from marching across Federal lands and private property .

Their concern isnt for the cattle as they are killing the cattle off by running them till they die
This is true . Many of the cattle have died . No outrage by the animal rights crowd there.

Deportations are at all time highs, so don't deflect the issue, since you always make this about the government while this rancher hasn't paid his fees in decades, and still hasn't since he lost in court, but then you turn around and say its okay for companies to use private lands to make money even if the farmer doesn't want it.

So he enriches himself on government land for free, FOR 21 YEARS? I would like to not pay fees, and rising cost of those fees for gas and food.

Sorry for the brief hijack..........
Deportations are at all time highs

I always question the claims that you see in the media... any media source. Numbers are too often skewed, as we all know, to serve the purpose of those reporting them, and the public is not always given the full picture.

Here's this from a well-known, non-partisan organization: Deportation Numbers Unwrapped | Center for Immigration Studies (http://cis.org/ICE-Illegal-Immigrant-Deportations)

Thanks Doulal C .I was about to post the same link. Tal ,you want a private business to be evicted to make room for a major corporation. The tortoise canard has already been debunked since they have waived the rules for other Reid supporters ,and would also waive the rule on the same land that Bundy uses if the solar farm is built there ;as they have done for other solar projects in the state (all it takes is a variance) .
Bureau of Land Management Solar Plan Guides Energy Development to Lower Conflict Areas, Challenges Remain | Defenders of Wildlife (http://www.defenders.org/press-release/bureau-land-management-solar-plan-guides-energy-development-lower-conflict-areas)

I have already addressed the nonsense about him not paying his lease fees. Let me ask you since you insist on comparing this to the Keystone pipeline . Will ANY landowner be forced off their land if the pipeline goes through their property ? NO .

For years Bundy paid his fees directly to Clark County, Nevada. The BLM imposed themselves on the arrangement claiming that they would help the ranchers in the area manage the land with the fees.They changed the terms without consulting with Bundy and the other ranchers . They then systematically used the fees to force the ranchers off the lands. Bundy is the last holdout . It did not help his neighbors one bit to pay the fees . They were still forced off the lands that their families had worked for generations .

btw ....my position on Federal lands is as follows .... The Federal Government owns WAY too much land in this country . 84 % of the land mass of Nevada is Federally owned.

Possibly some hope for a peaceful ending:

BREAKING NEWS: BLM ends roundup of Bundy cattle - 8 News NOW (http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25230368/major-development-in-bunkerville-cattle-battle-between-cliven-bundy-and-blm)

what part of breach of contract isn't understood here, the rancher doesn't have a right to graze his cattle if he doesn't pay his fees, on the other issue, owing property doesn't mean you own the air above it or the space beneath it but the idea that if you are a rancher it is all yours has grown up

Possibly some hope for a peaceful ending:

BREAKING NEWS: BLM ends roundup of Bundy cattle - 8 News NOW (http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25230368/major-development-in-bunkerville-cattle-battle-between-cliven-bundy-and-blm)

They are saying they are backing down to seek other methods. If you examine the tactics they were using it is what we here in America have been pointing the finger at in other countries.

I guess Reid doesnt need this kind of press so close to election time.

Clete ,the Feds were trying to manage his ranch out of business. That is the issue of the dispute. It's the same cr@p they are doing in the Central Valley in California to the farmers there .There was an agreement that Bundy would pay fees as long as the land was irrigated. The government did not irrigate the land so he invested in an irrigation system for the land while ending payments. It was the BLM that reneged because it was their intent to drive ranchers off the land.

btw see chart on page 4 of this ...
https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42346.pdf

81% of the land in the State of Nevada is Federally owned. That is an obscenity . The Federal Government owns close to 30% of all the land in the US (mostly in the Western States ) .

It certainly isn't about a tortoise, they're perfectly fine with whacking bald Eagles. In fact, if it wasn't mentioned before they said it was too expensive to run a preserve for that very tortoise so they closed it and euthanized the animals. But they can spend a million bucks or so to send in a militia to harass a rancher and steal his cattle.

P.S. According to SPLC it's all part of the Koch conspiracy.

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2014/04/11/right-wing-media-eagerly-promote-cliven-bundy-and-his-anti-federal-faceoff/

You think government is obscene any way, but Bundy in particular has used public lands to enrich himself for decades, but that's NOT obscene? He won't go out of business either, and hasn't, like you say about those ranchers in the heartland and the pipeline from Canada moving oil that most Americans will NEVER use.

True capitalist. Don't pay lease or rent and make MO'MONEY by cheating TAXPAYERS! We both know for all the stink and hollering he will quietly obey the court order and pay up. Just like Canada will eventually cut a deal that allows them to get their pipeline when they make those ranchers happy.

Now that Bundy has gained national attention ,I'm sure there are plenty of lawyers willing to fight his case in court.

He has been to court, and LOST! I guess he can afford to go back, or appeal or whatever tools (MONEY) rich guys have to make MO'MONEY for free. Or mitigate his losses(?) even more. They government has agreed to split the profits from the sale of his access cattle.

Your guy is a rich squatter

Visit Nevada Indian Territory, one of the last major frontiers to be settled by Euro-Americans (http://www.nevadaindianterritory.com/index.html)




At the western edge of the Great Basin lies a vast stretch of high mountain desert with sage covered hillsides, towering rock precipices and majestic mountain ranges. Indian Territory, Nevada, is home to three major Native American tribes: the Washoe, Paiute and Western Shoshone. For thousands of years their ancestors were the stewards of this land.
Indian Territory was one of the last major frontiers to be explored and settled by Euro-Americans. This land offered native people the ability to sustain ethnic identity longer than other parts of the country. Even through past tribulations, they have remained strong. The Washoe, Paiute and Western Shoshone tribes still comprise a culturally rich and distinctive ethnic group.
Today, the tribes focus their efforts on political and economic change. Tribal members look to the future with hope for a prosperous and environmentally aware society that understands the value of cultural diversity.




Its no wonder you can just give part of the story and ignore the resources involved which is oil, and water.

yeah they need the water to divert to projects of friends of Harry. It's unbelievable that you are using the 'rich guy card ' in this situation . You really think the BLM is working in the interest of conservation here ? Dude ! Why do you think they backed off once the Reid connection was revealed ? Could it be that Reid doesn't want the negative press in an election year that already showed him to be ripe with nepotism and corruption ?
As I already pointed out .. the head of BLM is a former Reid staffer . Coincidence ? I think not .

Thars oil in them thar hills, and they will get it, along with the water for further land development!! Ain't no varmits or land grubbin' cowboys gonna to stop it either. I can get with defending your land, but it's not his land, and he ain't paid for it's use in 20 years.

And he lost in court.

look at how quickly the Feds can build a fence when they are using them against American citizens .


45927
Man the Barrycades !

Difference between a fence and a wall Tom, that looks like a few panels of stock fence left over from the roundup, looks like the muster of humans was successful

If that's all it took to accommodate a peaceful, non violent protest, and the law to do its work, the fence is a good thing.

yeah it is called a "free speech zone " (sarcasm font engaged )

That's all you got left, revel in it, you don't have eminent domain any more

You would rather have a 2nd amendment solution being implemented? Both sides are armed.

One is a rancher protecting his family business. The other is the Federal Government working on behalf of the Reid family fortune trying to destroy the rancher's family business.
Did the Feds back down once the Reid connection was established ? Yes.

The head of the BLM is Neil Kornze, formerly Senior Policy Advisor to Harry Reid and a major figure in the Western Solar Plan. He became BLM head March 1, 2013 after recommendation and strong urging by Harry Reid.(all this is on the BLM website) The corruption in this case goes all the way down to the county commissioners and sheriff. Hasn't been on the news yet, but Saturday, agents of the U.S. Forest Service knocked on the door of a southwest New Mexico ranch and ordered the owners to remove their possessions and livestock as the ranch now belonged to the Forest Service. Land grab is easy in cases like this... keep increasing the rules, regulations, and restrictions until the people using the land(for generations and generations) can no longer possibly adhere to them. Then, under the law, confiscate(steal)the land for political cronyism. Ranchers and farmers tend to be conservative in their viewpoints, thus being the opposition in the eyes of the current administration who believes in paybacks. Al Sharpton,the race hustler with the imaginary seminary degree,still owes 2.5 million dollars to the IRS... no agents have shown up at his place confiscating possessions.

They haven't back down from enforcement of a lawful court order. That's still being pursued. Their approached has changed to stem the violence, as the local law enforcement has been talking with the Bundy for a more reasonable solution. Like mitigating his liability from non payments and fees through the sale of cattle they rounded up ON FEDERAL LAND.

Sorry you may miss your shoot out at the Bundy Corral.

News now is Harry Reid and the Chinese (http://www.dcclothesline.com/2014/04/12/nevada-standoff-harry-reid-russian-soldiers-chinese-businessmen-euthanized-turtles/) have been in cahoots for 2 years for Bundy's property. It seems Harry is interested in having a solar project on that property and the underground of Bundy's ranch is also rich with water, gas and oil…fracking companies are calling him too. (http://www.dcclothesline.com/2014/04/11/nevada-standoff-government-lies-turtles-fracking/)
Bundy owns his land and pays for his own repairs, but the government (http://www.dcclothesline.com/tag/government/) has found an excuse to strong arm him into leaving and are exercising their bully power by insisting on a show of force with the use of hundreds of costumed brown shirts, snipers (http://www.dcclothesline.com/tag/snipers/), vans, and even the setting up of little fenced off areas with signs that say first amendment area (http://www.dcclothesline.com/tag/first-amendment-area/). You are allowed to exercise your 1st amendment (http://www.dcclothesline.com/tag/1st-amendment-2/) rights only if you are penned up in these designated areas.
His son was even beaten and thrown in jail because he dared film outside of the gestapo designated pens. When Cliven tried to call 911 to find out where his son was they told him if he didn't get off the phone he would be arrested and anybody from that day forward who called 911 was told the same thing. So, they pay taxes (http://www.dcclothesline.com/tag/taxes/) for police (http://www.dcclothesline.com/tag/police/) but are threatened with jail if they use 911 because the feds are trying to show that they're the bosses. And the governor (http://www.dcclothesline.com/2014/04/09/nevada-governor-blasts-feds-first-amendment-area-tense-cattle-grazing-dispute/)? The sheriff? Someone? Crickets.
All so that they can take his 900 cattle away.


Excerpt from

Cliven Bundy's Daughter, Shiree Bundy Cox, Explains Why the BLM Came for Her Father | (http://www.dcclothesline.com/2014/04/14/cliven-bundys-daughter-shiree-bundy-cox-explains-blm-came-father/)

The round up continues peacefully and safely.

there is no round up . The BLM is returning the cattle they seized.
BLM releases cattle to Bundy - 8 News NOW (http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25231502/breaking-news-protesters-gather-on-i15-causing-traffic-delays-cliven-bundy-blm)

Now all they have to do is confiscate him for the calves that died when separated from their mom.

I think the Feds must be looking for cousin Ted... they didn't get the memo he was executed on January 24, 1989. Apparently he's been voting for Harry Reid for many years.

However, according to the BLM, the deal does not absolve Bundy from any of the fees he owes for having the animals there in the first place........
In its statement, the BLM said its actions this past week were progress in enforcing two court orders to remove the trespassing cattle from public land........The agency director also asked that everyone involved in the dispute remain peaceful and law-abiding.


I left out the spin about AMERICAS cattle. Like I said, the process will continue peacefully(?). Its been more than two decades so what's the hurry?

"Land, because of its unique nature and the crucial role it plays in human settlements cannot be treated as an ordinary asset, controlled by individuals and subject to the pressures and inefficiencies of the market,"

Private land ownership is also a principal instrument of accumulation and concentration of wealth and therefore contributes to social injustice; if unchecked, it may become a major obstacle in the planning and implementation of development schemes."

UN Agenda 21(The Vancouver Action Plan. D. Land )
The Vancouver Action Plan. D. Land - A/CONF.70/15 Chapter II - UN Documents: Gathering a body of global agreements (http://www.un-documents.net/vp-d.htm)

sounds like aland grab to me

"Land, because of its unique nature and the crucial role it plays in human settlements cannot be treated as an ordinary asset, controlled by individuals and subject to the pressures and inefficiencies of the market,"

Private land ownership is also a principal instrument of accumulation and concentration of wealth and therefore contributes to social injustice; if unchecked, it may become a major obstacle in the planning and implementation of development schemes."

UN Agenda 21(The Vancouver Action Plan. D. Land )
The Vancouver Action Plan. D. Land - A/CONF.70/15 Chapter II - UN Documents: Gathering a body of global agreements (http://www.un-documents.net/vp-d.htm)

Are you changing sides and agreeing the free use of federal lands by a private citizen is not a good thing?

I think we need to get all our ducks in a row, certain actions were very high handed but apparently necessary in the face of recalcitrant tenant who would not pay his rent, a peaceful demonstration did not lead to acts of violence from either side, there are people in this world who have agendas, whether it is pertinent to this debate is mute

While I applaud and support the protesters' demonstration against the high handed tactics of the Federal agents, strategically this is not the best place for States' rights and Individual Liberty activists to take a stand. Reid is a crook, a given since he's a politician, but Bundy is rather ignorant in his views of Nevada's charter of Statehood. The best possible outcome for this is Reid's exposure and hopefully defeat in the elections and Bundy settling his bill.

Debates on the principles of Federal land ownership are fine, but they belong in the Statehouse, not the desert sun.

Are you changing sides and agreeing the free use of federal lands by a private citizen is not a good thing?


No ,I thought I made it clear that I don't support the Federal Government owning almost a 3rd of the land mass of the nation.
My question is why do you favor as an alternative ,an eviction so Reid can profit from a rent seeker arrangement ? You cannot ignore or deny that the 200% in fees was designed to drive the ranchers off the land (and BLM was successful in driving all but one rancher off the land ) .

While I applaud and support the protesters' demonstration against the high handed tactics of the Federal agents, strategically this is not the best place for States' rights and Individual Liberty activists to take a stand. Reid is a crook, a given since he's a politician, but Bundy is rather ignorant in his views of Nevada's charter of Statehood. The best possible outcome for this is Reid's exposure and hopefully defeat in the elections and Bundy settling his bill.

Debates on the principles of Federal land ownership are fine, but they belong in the Statehouse, not the desert sun.
I'm sure the eastern liberal states are fine with this arrangement since there is a very small percentage of state land owned by the Feds in the east . The difference puts the western states at a competitive and tax disadvantage compared with Eastern states . What kind of nonsense is it that a State of the union only has sovereignty over less than 20 % of it's land ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HFiosLqjoQQ

Feds Desperate to Hide Harry Reid Link to Bundy Land GrabPosted on April 16, 2014 (http://www.dcclothesline.com/2014/04/16/feds-desperate-hide-harry-reid-link-bundy-land-grab/) by Paul Joseph Watson (http://www.dcclothesline.com/author/paul-joseph-watson/)
BLM deletes Google cache of explosive document


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uqQRhJjS0ww

The feds are so desperate to hide Harry Reid (http://www.dcclothesline.com/tag/harry-reid/)'s connection to a Communist Chinese energy company linked to the Cliven Bundy land grab (http://www.dcclothesline.com/2014/04/12/nevada-standoff-harry-reid-russian-soldiers-chinese-businessmen-euthanized-turtles/), they are now even deleting Google (http://www.dcclothesline.com/tag/google/)'s cached version of an explosive document originally deleted from the BLM website.


------------------------------

What else would anyone expect from the most corrupt administration with the most corrupt political party in the history of this country.

conspiracy theory

How else can they defend trespassing and stealing?

Tresspassing and stealing by the government? THis is yet another case of the government and the media that are in bed with them spreading misinformation about what's really happening.

Is ANYONE foolish enough to believe anything Harry Reid says...or trust anything he does.....after 6 years of the most corrupt administration to ever plague this country

Nice spin, but fact is Bundy lost in court and had ample opportunity to prove it was Harry's fault not his.

Harry is in Bed with the Chinese to line his own pockets and this is all a diversion to divert attention from where it really should be.

http://www.dcclothesline.com/2014/04/16/coming-chinese-emp-attack-upon-america/

Or you are diverting attention from the wrong doing of this rancher for 20 years with soaring rhetoric, and conspiracy theories. Fed to you by extremists, and right wing fringe loony's. None of which will change the court rulings. It's a done deal and all over with except for the shouting.

the fact that the Feds left when the information about the Reid connection was revealed is proof enough .

>SIGH< They didn't leave, they backed off to keep from killing protestors. You showed the fence and its being worked out in a peaceful, non violent way, between Bundy and the law, without the noise and rabble from the gun toting crowd.

Really... I seem to rememebr Ruby ridge where innocent people got killed by the FBI for doing absolutely nothing wrong either.

THis is all about yet another Democrat scandle they are running away from when the facts come out despite near total control of the media by the DNC.

It should be noted that the government lost in court, and paid damages to the Weavers family in civil courts.

Harry Reid could be on Youtube video playing spin the tyke on the pole... and the dems would defend him doing it.

I have defended the lawful court process that says the rancher gets off federal lands and pays what he owes for years of free usage. Texas does business with many foreign nations, why shouldn't Nevada or any other state?

You are parroting what Harry Ried wants you and everyone else to think happened... and ignoring what's really been going on out there... which are two VERY different things.

You know what you need over there is what we have here, the independent commission against corruption, in 24 years this body has claimed many political scalps the most high profile of which was just this week, NSW Premier O'Farrell and it's reach may yet embarrass the lofty heights of Canberra where guilt by association reigns.

O'Farrell resigned after lying to the commission about an expensive bottle of wine, begging the question regarding what may remain hidden. By resigning he didn't have to face questions in the parliament

They would soon unseat the likes of Harry Reid

Tal ,Philly mayor Michael Nutter signed an executive order today stating the city will no longer cooperate with the ICE . I want to hear you condemn his violation of the lawful process.

You know what you need over there is what we have here, the independent commission against corruption, in 24 years this body has claimed many political scalps the most high profile of which was just this week, NSW Premier O'Farrell and it's reach may yet embarrass the lofty heights of Canberra where guilt by association reigns.

O'Farrell resigned after lying to the commission about an expensive bottle of wine, begging the question regarding what may remain hidden. By resigning he didn't have to face questions in the parliament

They would soon unseat the likes of Harry Reid


Tom is not interested in solutions, just political point scoring.

Tom is not interested in solutions, just political point scoring.

if it would force the crook Harry Reid to resign then there is some merit to the proposal. We could do the same here with an independent prosecutor if the emperor would direct his chief law enforcement cabinet officer to appoint one ..

What I don't understand is you have such august bodies such as the FBI and yet your politics is rife with corruption. A machine politician like Obama would never do what you suggest since he would probably find the fingers pointing at him. The type of body I'm speaking about doesn't prosecute, it investigates under judicial authority and so can command evidence from anyone, the end of the process is a recommendation for prosecution but what is uncovered in the process is far reaching and indepth, much deeper than your Senate enquiries can dig

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-10/labor-mps-lash-out-at-bob-carr-after-memoir-release/5381116

The FBI is even more corrupt than the local police (the last 6 years anyway but its been that way before under Louie Freeh, remember Ruby Ridge?)... and it starts at Obama... he after all appoints the Attourney General... and the top positions are ALL politically influenced.

In what way is it corrupt?

Its not happening just in Nevada... they are pulling the same stunt in Texas... to people that have paid property taxes on the land for over 100 years...

Bureau of Land Management Looks to Seize 90,000 Acres of Texas Ranchland | (http://www.dcclothesline.com/2014/04/17/bureau-land-management-looks-seize-90000-acres-texas-ranchland/)

The article is too long to cut and paste...so I linked it.

In what way is it corrupt?

You could write a book on the civil right violations and curruption of the FBI and the inJustice department under Clinton and Obama (though it dates back decades longer). They are that numerous.

Seems you might have one police force too many, no, more than one

Can't disagree there... the problem is they have gotten too big for their britches... or drunk with power.

"We cannot continue to rely only on our military ...We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."
The Emperor .

The BLM is not the only agency that is now armed and ready to use force. Last year the EPA raided gold mines in Alaska with armed agents using paramilitary tactics.

Your quote is another bit of misinformation... again.

Obama's 'National Security Force?' (http://www.factcheck.org/2008/11/obamas-national-security-force/)

Factcheck dot org is a George Soros funded liberal misinformation site.

Factcheck dot org is a George Soros funded liberal misinformation site.Ok, debunk what they say then.

Factcheck dot org is a George Soros funded liberal misinformation site.

No different than Hannity or Limbaugh.

Ok, debunk what they say then.

Anything connecterd with Soros is suspect... truth and facts are not things Soros.. or today's Democrat party want to waste any time with so they make up everything. Proof is the total lack of transparency and complete disregard for the facts. Behghazigate, IrsGate, ACORN, Guns for goons program... etc, etc...

WHen was there NOT a scandal the last 6 years... (just to narrow it down a bit)

Anything connecterd with Soros is suspect... truth and facts are not things Soros.. or today's Democrat party want to waste any time with so they make up everything. Proof is the total lack of transparency and complete disregard for the facts. Behghazigate, IrsGate, ACORN, Guns for goons program... etc, etc...

WHen was there NOT a scandal the last 6 years... (just to narrow it down a bit)

What NK means is to demonstrate the misinformation contained within the article.

That's correct. But, if past performance is any indication, we'll be waiting a long time.

In what way is it corrupt?




New emails show that both the IRS and Justice Department were involved in a probe of Tea Party and other conservative groups. This is no mere scandal — it's a major breach of the law.
The newly released emails were gathered for a Freedom of Information Act request by Judicial Watch, a nonpartisan public interest law group. They show that former Internal Revenue Service official Lois Lerner discussed with the Justice Department going after conservative groups that she believed lied about their political activities.
What's shocking is that this discussion came just days before Lerner acknowledged that the IRS had investigated tea-party and other conservative groups but insisted that it was an isolated incident conducted by low-level officials in the IRS' Cincinnati office.
It was a lie. In a May 8 email to Nikole Flax, then the chief of staff to the acting IRS commissioner, Lerner discusses a phone call from Richard Pilger, who headed the Justice Department's elections crimes unit.
According to Lerner, Pilger wondered if the IRS could help him "piece together false-statement cases about applicants who 'lied'" on applications for tax-free status.
In a subsequent email, Lerner responded: "I think we should do it — also need to include CI (the criminal investigation unit), which we can help coordinate. Also, we need to reach out to FEC (the Federal Election Commission). Does it make sense to consider including them in this or keep it separate?"
It's been clear for some time that this goes beyond a mere rogue IRS operation in Cincinnati. But until now, we didn't know how far it went.
As the emails show, it was a high-level conspiracy to use the offices and powers of the federal government — including the IRS, FEC and Justice — to falsely prosecute and harass the tea party and conservative political groups that opposed the Obama administration.
How do we know that the groups were "conservative?" Just two days after her email to Flax, Lerner admitted in an email to a Washington Post reporter that she "can't confirm that there was anyone on the other side of the political spectrum" targeted by the IRS.
In short, it was a politically motivated witch hunt.
"These new emails show that the day before she broke the news of the IRS scandal, Lois Lerner was talking to a top Obama Justice Department official about whether the DOJ could prosecute the very same organizations that the IRS had already improperly targeted," said Tom Fitton, Judicial Watch's president.
"The IRS emails show Eric Holder's Department of Justice is now implicated and conflicted in the IRS scandal," he added.
Moreover, the IRS coordinated some of its attacks against conservatives and the GOP with far-left Democrats in Congress, including Rep. Elijah Cummings of Maryland and Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode Island. This wasn't isolated; it was a campaign.
President Obama told Fox News in February that there wasn't "even a smidgen of corruption" in what the IRS did. The corruption is there, Mr. President, and it demands a prosecution. The only remaining question is whether the rot extends to your office, too.


Emails Show Corruption At Heart Of Obama Administration - Investors.com (http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/041714-697618-new-emails-show-extensive-plan-to-target-conservative-groups.htm#ixzz2zCK8cW7r)

No different than Hannity or Limbaugh.
Really?. exactly what things are they funding with their billions of dollars exactly?

That's correct. But, if past performance is any indication, we'll be waiting a long time.WHy shoud I prove anything... you haven't proved your claims at all via a source that's not so obviously biased.

this debate is going in circles, restating the same "facts" doesn't make them true or pertinent. Bundy has the course of legal action open to him, but the government has the ability to change the rules. A lease is a right to use, it does not confer permanent use and usually you cannot be compensated for leasehold improvements. If you break the terms of a lease by failing to pay the lease fee, this terminates the lease. Surely 20 years of stuffing about is enough latitude

this debate is going in circles, restating the same "facts" doesn't make them true or pertinent. Bundy has the course of legal action open to him, but the government has the ability to change the rules. A lease is a right to use, it does not confer permanent use and usually you cannot be compensated for leasehold improvements. If you break the terms of a lease by failing to pay the lease fee, this terminates the lease. Surely 20 years of stuffing about is enough latitude
WHen you've been doing it openly for well over 20+ years... and nobody says or does anything... that becomes a prescriptive rights issue. And he stands a really good chance of winning on that basis.

http://www.dcclothesline.com/2014/04/17/blm-worried-cliven-bundy-might-prescriptive-rights-might-use-defense-court/

Good Luck with that, a quick piece of retrospective legislation will extinguish his "rights", he is afterall one person,

Most other litigants would have filed a lien on the property, which would get satisfied when the property is sold or inherited.. Instead the government sent in the jackboots. The fact is that the Bundy family purchased grazing and surface water rights to the land in perpetuity in the 1880s, long before BLM existed. It was Bundy and the other ranchers who installed wells and irrigation , fencing, cattle guards,,built access roads etc. ,and maintained and worked the land.

Prescriptive easements are common in this country . My driveway goes through my neighbor's property .I can't claim the property as my own ,but he can't prevent me from driving on it .

WHy shoud I prove anything... you haven't proved your claims at all via a source that's not so obviously biased.


You should because the quote provided is one of the worst examples of quote mining seen here for a long time.

The source is irrelevant in this case because it contains the quote in context-- as opposed to the mined quote.

I think not . The fact that domestic agencies have purchased unprecedented amts of assault weapons and ammo....and the fact that we've documented a number of recent cases where these weapons have been deployed against civilians ,leads one to believe that the intent of that quote has more to do with our interpretation.

You've proven neither. I doubt your interpretation is better that the original speaker's actual words. Ideology will make you see something that isn't there to further your own beliefs.

You've proven neither. I doubt your interpretation is better that the original speaker's actual words. Ideology will make you see something that isn't there to further your own beliefs.

That's correct.


Tom's response has nothing to do with quote mining. It changes nothing in relation to the two quotes provided. In fact, "our interpretation" is a pretty good definition of quote mining.

Harry Reids slide into senility continues at a rapid place.

Harry Reid Calls Cliven Bundy Supporters “Domestic Terrorists� | (http://www.dcclothesline.com/2014/04/18/harry-reid-calls-cliven-bundy-supporters-domestic-terrorists/)

He'll be drooling and wearing diapers soon if he's not already.

And more proof the Federal Government and the Dept of injustice and the BLM or out of control...

http://www.dcclothesline.com/2014/04/18/sheriff-mack-federal-snipers-bundy-ranch-mercenaries-hit-men/

Paid hitmen (murderers for hire) who aren't even law enforcement people.

what is out of content is the 2 sentences in relation to the rest of the emperor's address about volunteerism . Take off your blinders. What do those sentences mean in relation to expanding community service opportunities for Americans ? Nothing ...it was an off teleprompter moment when his true thoughts were revealed.
(here is the prepared text of the speech . Those lines were added in a candid moment revealing his real intent . Text of Obama's speech : DNC 2008 : The Rocky Mountain News (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/jul/02/text-obamas-speech/) )

You should because the quote provided is one of the worst examples of quote mining seen here for a long time.

The source is irrelevant in this case because it contains the quote in context-- as opposed to the mined quote.

Typical liberal... they rant away... but refuse to offer any real proof on their own ( and when they do its from a ultra left wing source, usually funded by Soros)... but expect everyone else to do it.

Typical liberal... they rant away... but refuse to offer any real proof on their own ( and when they do its from a ultra left wing source, usually funded by Soros)... but expect everyone else to do it.

What part of the ad hominiem fallacy are you having problems with understanding smoothy? The source is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of a claim. The test comes by way of analysis of what is being said.

what is out of content is the 2 sentences in relation to the rest of the emperor's address about volunteerism . Take off your blinders. What do those sentences mean in relation to expanding community service opportunities for Americans ? Nothing ...it was an off teleprompter moment when his true thoughts were revealed.
(here is the prepared text of the speech . Those lines were added in a candid moment revealing his real intent . Text of Obama's speech : DNC 2008 : The Rocky Mountain News (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/jul/02/text-obamas-speech/) )

Of course it's out of context.It's not for you or "our interpretation" to decide. You cannot sum up a speech of this size with 2 lines. It's the height of ridiculousness.

The relevant 5 or 6 paragraphs are there for everyone to see. Post this, and then provide your interpretations. That's the standard procedure when it comes to academia and quality journalism.

Now that I have read the relevant sections I have an interpretation. I don't need you to tell me how I should be interpreting a speech.

Obama Sends Hundreds of Armed Feds to Nevada – Wouldn’t Send 1 Soldier to Defend Benghazi – Why?

http://www.dcclothesline.com/2014/04/17/obama-sends-hundreds-armed-feds-nevada-wouldnt-send-1-soldier-defend-benghazi/ (http://www.dcclothesline.com/2014/04/17/obama-sends-hundreds-armed-feds-nevada-wouldnt-send-1-soldier-defend-benghazi/)

This speaks volumes about the post smoking cocain snorting tyrant ocupying the white house...

What part of the ad hominiem fallacy are you having problems with understanding smoothy? The source is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of a claim. The test comes by way of analysis of what is being said.
Reall6y... THe source has EVERYTHING to do about the validity of a claim... case in point... the so-called VIDEO... nobody ever saw... being blamed for Benghazi...

Source was the white house... claim was completely false and fabricated, and proven to be so... yet was still backed up and supported by other left wing hacks who have no regard for facts... they just want to push a falicy on the public..,. something that's been a daily occurrence the last 6 years under Obama on essentially everything, and everyone he has appointed to any position.

ANYTHING connected to scum like Soros and his money is suspect....and in fact needs to be assumed as false unless it can be proven true based on the extensive history of lies and misinformation he and his kind are responsible for.

This speaks volumesActually that website you seem to love speaks volumes about your lack of need for facts to believe a story, as long as it fits your agenda. The author is "active white suprema­cist and secessionist sym­pa­thizer" which does indeed fit your agenda.

Actually that website you seem to love speaks volumes about your lack of need for facts to believe a story, as long as it fits your agenda. The author is "active white suprema­cist and secessionist sym­pa­thizer" which does indeed fit your agenda.
Really.. Obama is a far bigger racist... and so is Eric Holder... and it's a matter of public record... yet you believe EVERYTHING they tell anyone... even when proven to be completely factually incorrect. Which is always.

6 years of Obama has proven to the thinking population that absolutely nothing that comes from the WHite house is to be believed.

I can't think of a case where they were caught being honest and accurate about anything.

And unlike you who gets EVERYTHING from a biased press.....I wade around in this cesspool they call Washington every day.....what we hear around here is way different than what gets on the news most times.

Reall6y... THe source has EVERYTHING to do about the validity of a claim... case in point... the so-called VIDEO... nobody ever saw... being blamed for Benghazi...

Source was the white house... claim was completely false and fabricated, and proven to be so... yet was still backed up and supported by other left wing hacks who have no regard for facts... they just want to push a falicy on the public..,. something that's been a daily occurrence the last 6 years under Obama on essentially everything, and everyone he has appointed to any position.

ANYTHING connected to scum like Soros and his money is suspect....and in fact needs to be assumed as false unless it can be proven true based on the extensive history of lies and misinformation he and his kind are responsible for.


Smoothy, what has this got to do with anything I have said?

Actually that website you seem to love speaks volumes about your lack of need for facts to believe a story, as long as it fits your agenda. The author is "active white suprema­cist and secessionist sym­pa­thizer" which does indeed fit your agenda.And you are an admitted active socialist and atheist... what makes you think anyone should take your word for anything.

Smoothy, what has this got to do with anything I have said?

Everything... read it again.. and read what you asked... it should be clear.

And you are an admitted active socialist and atheist... what makes you think anyone should take your word for anything.

Because it is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of what he says. The truth or falsity of his claims are require a separate analysis. You seem to have trouble grasping this.

Don't take my word for it. Look it up under, "Ad hominem"

Everything... read it again.. and read what you asked... it should be clear.


I did. I didn't ask any question or make any statements in relation to Benghazi.

I don't know anything about Benghazi.

Because it is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of what he says. The truth or falsity of his claims are require a separate analysis. You seem to have trouble grasping this.

Don't take my word for it. Look it up under, "Ad hominem"

Really... so... left wingers can spew out any claim they want, back it with fabricated sources... and its beyond reproach? That's what you are saying? Obama the Messiah says so....and questioning it is blasphemy?

I did. I didn't ask any question or make any statements in relation to Benghazi.

I don't know anything about Benghazi.
Think a bit... I know you are smart enough to grasp the concept of an example.

Really... so... left wingers can spew out any claim they want... and its beyond reproach? That's what you are saying? Obama the Messiah says so....and questioning it is blasphemy?


Firstly, I am not a liberal and I am not a left winger, and I don't particularly like Obama.

Secondly, I didn't say that any statement that is made by anyone is beyond reproach. A person's character has nothing to do with the truth or falsity of what they say.


Here it is

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

what is out of content is the 2 sentences in relation to the rest of the emperor's address about volunteerism . Take off your blinders. What do those sentences mean in relation to expanding community service opportunities for Americans ? Nothing ...it was an off teleprompter moment when his true thoughts were revealed.
(here is the prepared text of the speech . Those lines were added in a candid moment revealing his real intent . Text of Obama's speech : DNC 2008 : The Rocky Mountain News (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/jul/02/text-obamas-speech/) )

Tom, I have read the relevant quotes and the embedded contexts.

I think you may be correct.

No offense, but I prefer to make judgements on my own based on all the available information.

Firstly, I am not a liberal and I am not a left winger, and I don't particularly like Obama.

Secondly, I didn't say that any statement that is made by anyone is beyond reproach. A person's character has nothing to do with the truth or falsity of what they say.


Here it is

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem)

You took that out of context... it wasn't calling you a left winger... it was pointed at left wingers in general, since they tend to think their propaganda is beyond reproach... and actual facts... unless accepted in their propaganda, or posted from one of their biased sources (many funded by Soros) aren't acceptable as an argument.

I.E. If Obama says it....its like Moses himself came off the mountain saying it to that crowd.

I didn't care much for him when he got elected the first time....that has grown to outright contempt and hatred for the human scum in the six years of race baiting and corruption that has followed.

Highlight the sentences of his true intent from 6 years ago please. Just trying to draw a relevance between a campaign speech and a self enriching squatter.

You took that out of context... it wasn't calling you a left winger... it was pointed at left wingers in general, since they tend to think their propaganda is beyond reproach... and actual facts... unless accepted in their propaganda, or posted from one of their biased sources (many funded by Soros) aren't acceptable as an argument.


I think it was reification on my part, not taking it out of context. I'd have to look it up to get a definitive answer to that.

Highlight the sentences of his true intent from 6 years ago please. Just trying to draw a relevance between a campaign speech and a self enriching squatter.

self enriching squatter ? You see the problem here is that the Federal government has as much respect for the grazing and water rights in perpetuity provisions as they once had for the treaties with the Indian nations.

No the problem is I cannot find those 2 sentences that were stuck into a campaign speech from 2008, my bad. Indulge my slow mind why don't you. You said take off the blinders, so help me see the true intent that has been ignored for 6 years in the in the confluence of subsequent events.

The squatter will get his under the process of the law despite the guns pointed at the law. About time after 20 years I say.

here is the text as the emperor spoke them

[As] president I will expand AmeriCorps to 250,000 slots [from 75,000] and make that increased service a vehicle to meet national goals, like providing health care and education, saving our planet and restoring our standing in the world, so that citizens see their effort connected to a common purpose.People of all ages, stations and skills will be asked to serve. Because when it comes to the challenges we face, the American people are not the problem – they are the answer. So we are going to send more college graduates to teach and mentor our young people. We’ll call on Americans to join an energy corps, to conduct renewable energy and environmental clean-up projects in their neighborhoods all across the country.
We will enlist our veterans to find jobs and support for other vets, and to be there for our military families. And we’re going to grow our Foreign Service, open consulates that have been shuttered and double the size of the Peace Corps by 2011 to renew our diplomacy. We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we’ve set.
We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded. We need to use technology to connect people to service. We’ll expand USA Freedom Corps to create online networks where American can browse opportunities to volunteer. You’ll be able to search by category, time commitment and skill sets. You’ll be able to rate service opportunities, build service networks, and create your own service pages to track your hours and activities.
This will empower more Americans to craft their own service agenda and make their own change from the bottom up.
And here is the text provided to the press :

As President, I will expand AmeriCorps to 250,000 slots, and make that increased service a vehicle to meet national goals like providing health care and education, saving our planet and restoring our standing in the world, so that citizens see their efforts connected to a common purpose. People of all ages, stations, and skills will be asked to serve. Because when it comes to the challenges we face, the American people are not the problem - they are the answer.
We'll send more college graduates to teach and mentor our young people. We'll call on Americans to join an Energy Corps to conduct renewable energy and environmental cleanup projects in their neighborhoods. We'll enlist veterans to help other vets find jobs and support, and to be there for our military families. And we'll also grow our Foreign Service, open consulates that have been shuttered, and double the size of the Peace Corps by 2011 to renew our diplomacy.
And we'll use technology to connect people to service. We'll expand USA Freedom Corps to create an online network where Americans can browse opportunities to volunteer. You'll be able to search by category, time commitment, and skill sets; you'll be able to rate service opportunities, build service networks, and create your own service pages to track your hours and activities. This will empower more Americans to craft their own service agenda, and make their own change from the bottom up.


As you see ;those were off the cuff /off teleprompter comments about forming a civilian national security force just as powerful ,strong and funded as the military that exposed his true intent . Face facts ...why have many Federal bureaucracies purchased combat weaponry ? Why does the EPA need them ? Why does the BLM ? You know the answer of course... every emperor has their Praetorian Guard .

Yeah he couldn't mean trained and equipped first responders, be it as a buffer for terrorists, or mother nature.

Back to you and your spin.

We have the Fire department, Police and the Guard (National, Coast and Air) for that...

no spin . Tell me why did National Oceanic Atmopheric Administration (NOAH) seek to purchase 46,000 rounds of ammunition this year ?

We have the Fire department, Police and the Guard (National, Coast and Air) for that...

I guess you forget the droughts, mudslides, tornadoes, and storms, fires, and floods. Mostly volunteers who have to eat, from all parts of the country.


no spin . Tell me why did National Oceanic Atmopheric Administration (NOAH) seek to purchase 46,000 rounds of ammunition this year ?

National Weather Service “ammunition� solicitation triggers confusion - Capital Weather Gang - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/post/national-weather-service-ammunition-solicitation-triggers-confusion/2012/08/14/3dc6b67e-e62a-11e1-936a-b801f1abab19_blog.html)


UPDATE, 1:07 p.m.: NOAA spokesman Scott Smullen emailed the following statement, clarifying the ammunition order is for fisheries law enforcement, as we suspected:Due to a clerical error in the federal business vendor process, a solicitation for ammunition and targets for the NOAA Fisheries Office of Law Enforcement mistakenly identified NOAA's National Weather Service as the requesting office. The error is being fixed and will soon appear correctly in the electronic federal bidding system. The ammunition is standard issue for many law enforcement agencies and it will be used by 63 NOAA enforcement agents in their twice annual target qualifications and training.

I guess you forget the droughts, mudslides, tornadoes, and storms, fires, and floods. Mostly volunteers who have to eat, from all parts of the country.

And what government agency stops those from happening exactly? Its clear they aren't doing their jobs if they still happen.

You are aware the first responders are local and state agencies... NOT the Federal government.

Dude a first responder is on the scene after emergencies happen. You can't stop a nut with a gun or a weather disaster, but you can help the victims. Its not any ones job to stop stuff from happening. No city or state has the resources for that but the feds do and that's the first one that's called after stuff happens.

What you think volunteers buy trucks and water for victims of that chemical spill in West Virginia? Think again.

Dude a first responder is on the scene after emergencies happen. You can't stop a nut with a gun or a weather disaster, but you can help the victims.

There are no Federal first responders outside the military. I include the Coast Guard as military. All first responders are local employees, albeit not necessarily from the locality of the emergency. The only Federal employees to respond to emergencies are from FEMA, the Federal Emergency MANAGEMENT Agency, whose sole job is to co-ordinate volunteers and "borrowed" first responders.

Dude a first responder is on the scene after emergencies happen. You can't stop a nut with a gun or a weather disaster, but you can help the victims. Its not any ones job to stop stuff from happening. No city or state has the resources for that but the feds do and that's the first one that's called after stuff happens.

What you think volunteers buy trucks and water for victims of that chemical spill in West Virginia? Think again.


Again... the FIRST responders are ALWAYS the local police and fire department... ALWAYS, none of them paid for by the Federal Government. NOT some idiot in the Federal government that got their job because they knew someone that owed them a favor. The Federal government are always Johnny-come-lately on the scene.

There are no Federal first responders outside the military. I include the Coast Guard as military. All first responders are local employees, albeit not necessarily from the locality of the emergency. The only Federal employees to respond to emergencies are from FEMA, the Federal Emergency MANAGEMENT Agency, whose sole job is to co-ordinate volunteers and "borrowed" first responders.


And people would be shocked to find out that is not FEMA's primary responsibility. Its something completely unrelated that actually is. I know what it is... but does anyone else here know what it is.

The squatter will get his under the process of the law
If you call Bundy a squatter for a dispute involving grazing fees ,what do you call Warren Buffett ,who owes a $billion in back taxes ?
Why doesn't the government assault Berkshire Hathaway ?

If you call Bundy a squatter for a dispute involving grazing fees ,what do you call Warren Buffett ,who owes a $billion in back taxes ?
Why doesn't the government assault Berkshire Hathaway ?

Or MSNBC, where Sharpton owes almost $2 million.

all get dealt with in due course, this time it was Bundy, an easy target, but persistence pays off

The way I figure it, soon Bundy must sell his cows to someone, an the feds will get their money. He could have let the feds take the cows and sell them at their expense and get a few bucks back but NOOO, he had to DEMAND their return and now he pays to take them to market, and still no profit the dufus.

Smart people mitigate their losses by cutting a deal they can live with but this hard head coot rather make face time for TV in a lost cause. I have been trying to find the local Cattleman's Association supporting him, which if they don't is telling despite the out of towners with guns, Alex Jones, and Shaun Hannity. Oh wait The CA has issued a statement.

Nevada Cattlemen comment on Bundy dispute (http://elkodaily.com/news/local/nevada-cattlemen-comment-on-bundy-dispute/article_e984718e-c744-11e3-a012-0019bb2963f4.html)


Nevada Cattlemen's Association (NCA) works hard to change regulations detrimental to the sound management of public lands in a lawful manner and supports the concept of multiple uses on federally managed lands and encourages members of the livestock industry to abide by regulations governing federal lands.
Furthermore, Nevada Cattlemen's Association supports effective range management through collaboration with resource management agencies and interested parties to achieve rangeland management goals for economically viable ranch operations and the conservation of wildlife species.
With the above stated this case was reviewed by a federal judge and a decision was rendered to remove the cattle. Nevada Cattlemen's Association does not feel it is our place to interfere in the process of adjudication in this matter. Additionally, NCA believes the matter is between Mr. Bundy and the Federal Courts.
We regret that this entire situation was not avoided through more local government involvement and better implementation of federal regulations, laws, and court decisions. While we cannot advocate operating outside the law to solve problems, we also sympathize with Mr. Bundy's dilemma. With good faith negotiations from both sides, we believe a result can be achieved which recognizes the balance that must be struck between private property rights and resource sustainability.


In light of this statement, I would have more sympathy if he had acted more reasonably within the law, but since he didn't, I don't.

Nevada Squatter Cliven Bundy Says His Battle for Freedom May Escalate into the Next Ruby Ridge | All Things Crime Blog (http://www.allthingscrimeblog.com/2014/04/13/nevada-squatter-cliven-bundy-says-his-battle-for-freedom-may-escalate-into-the-next-ruby-ridge/)

I guess he didn't want to pay his CA dues either,

Range war controversy | WLJ Online (http://www.wlj.net/article-9854-range-war-controversy.html)


Bundy is not a member of the NCA, which has more than 560 dues-paying members in Nevada. Torrell said the dispute has been triggered by the Endangered Species Act and listing a desert tortoise as endangered. “Public lands grazing always has been contentious and always will be, but you can't change laws by breaking laws.”

The NCA statement stressed the association “supports effective range management through collaboration with resource management agencies and interested parties to achieve rangeland management goals for economically viable ranch operations and the conservation of wildlife species.”

The NCA noted that a federal judge reviewed the Bundy case and authorized the U.S. government to impound Bundy's cattle, enjoining them from trespassing on federal land.

Well the Bundy's can sing "I fought the law, and the law won" all the way to the poor house.

Wait until Obamas goon squad comes after you and yours Tal... its just a matter of time... they won't be happy until Stalin looks like a better alternative. Putin already looks good compared to Obama.

Stop scaring yourself and enjoy the ride. I survived Reagan, Nixon, and two Bush's. You can make it through Obama. Putin will give you asylum if you ask him. You and Snowden can trade secrets.

Ironically ,the desert tortoise thrive where cattle graze. Them cow pies are a delicacy .
RANGE magazine (http://www.rangemagazine.com/features/winter-05/cowpie.shtml)

yeh but they don't do so well with solar farms

correct ,tortoise and birds get fried near solar farms ;and birds die by the thousands near windmill farms.
This was never about desert tortoise. The government just culled thousands of them ... a strange way to treat an endangered species.

well I seem to remember they culled another endangered species in roughly the same region

This little interview seems appropriate:

Judge Napolitano Explains How the Government Snatched 'Defeat Out of the Jaws of Victory' on Nevada Rancher Case | TheBlaze.com (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/04/18/judge-napolitano-explains-how-the-government-snatched-defeat-out-of-the-jaws-of-victory-on-nevada-rancher-case/)


“The problem here is that the federal government — as is typical when it wins its case — has overplayed its hand and has completely turned the dynamics in which it won, into a case in which it's probably going to lose, because of the manner in which it's enforcing its victory,”

you are saying brute force doesn't work

you are saying brute force doesn't work

It worked quite well at Mt. Carmel 21 years ago yesterday. I'm saying the SHOW of force doesn't work unless you're willing to pull the trigger and massacre your own citizens.

It worked quite well at Mt. Carmel 21 years ago yesterday. I'm saying the SHOW of force doesn't work unless you're willing to pull the trigger and massacre your own citizens.

Are you going to make us look that up to get your point?

Nevada Assemblywoman Exposes the Truth About the Bundy/BLM Showdown | (http://www.dcclothesline.com/2014/04/20/nevada-assemblywoman-exposes-truth-bundyblm-showdown/)

Are you going to make us look that up to get your point?

No

The Waco Massacre (http://www.serendipity.li/waco.html)

It would seem the publicity about Mr. Bundy is generating some coverage of other aspects of this controversy. This is getting better.

Western States Gather: 'The Urgency is Now' to Take Control of Federal Land (http://www.ijreview.com/2014/04/131148-western-states-gather-urgency-now-take-control-federal-land/)

Article One, Section 8, Clause 17,provides for the creation of Washington, D.C. as the seat of the federal government and allows the federal government to purchase lands in a state with "the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings.”

It is of questionable constitutionality that the Federal Government retained so much of the Western States lands after the States were admitted into the union.

But from here, will simple condemnation of the property by the state governments be enough?

BLM Whistleblower Exposes the Clark County Land Grab: It's Much Bigger than We Thought : Freedom Outpost (http://freedomoutpost.com/2014/04/blm-whistleblower-exposes-clark-county-land-grab-much-bigger-thought/)

That article syas they can't make sense of it, so how can we?

Well Clive is extending his 15 minutes, and more are running from him.

http://www.examiner.com/article/cliven-bundy-exposed-embarrassed-republicans-running-away

How a patriot can be against the government is beyond me but the founders had their own methods to handle law breakers, and din't wait 20 years either,

Whiskey Rebellion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion)


Throughout counties in Western Pennsylvania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Pennsylvania), protesters used violence and intimidation to prevent federal officials from collecting the tax. Resistance came to a climax in July 1794, when a U.S. marshal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marshals_Service) arrived in western Pennsylvania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Pennsylvania) to serve writs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writs) to distillers who had not paid the excise. The alarm was raised, and more than 500 armed men attacked the fortified home of tax inspector General John Neville (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Neville_(general)). Washington responded by sending peace commissioners to western Pennsylvania to negotiate with the rebels, while at the same time calling on governors to send a militia force to enforce the tax. With 13,000 militia provided by the governors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governor_(United_States)) of Virginia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia), Maryland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland), New Jersey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jersey), and Pennsylvania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania),Washington (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington) rode at the head of an army to suppress the insurgency. The rebels all went home before the arrival of the army, and there was no confrontation.

Daily Kos :: Chickensh*t TeaParty Militia in Nevada Wanted To Use Woman as Human Shields for Cliven Bundy (http://m.dailykos.com/story/2014/04/14/1292049/-Chickensh-t-TeaParty-Militia-in-Nevada-Wanted-To-Use-Woman-as-Human-Shields-for-Cliven-Bundy)

Any more questions?

How a patriot can be against the government is beyond me but the founders had their own methods to handle law breakers, and din't wait 20 years either,

Whiskey Rebellion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion)



Daily Kos :: Chickensh*t TeaParty Militia in Nevada Wanted To Use Woman as Human Shields for Cliven Bundy (http://m.dailykos.com/story/2014/04/14/1292049/-Chickensh-t-TeaParty-Militia-in-Nevada-Wanted-To-Use-Woman-as-Human-Shields-for-Cliven-Bundy)

Any more questions?

the very notion of patriotism in your nation is to be opposed to government, the very notion of your second amendment rights as they are applied today is to be opposed to government, your republican representatives would consider themselves patriots as they oppose the elected government of the day. I don't know where you get these ideas but put them back

the very notion of patriotism in your nation is to be opposed to government, the very notion of your second amendment rights as they are applied today is to be opposed to government, your republican representatives would consider themselves patriots as they oppose the elected government of the day. I don't know where you get these ideas but put them back

I think you have the wrong idea here. The notion of patriotism is about beleiving in this country and the beleifs of the founders. If the government gets too far out of hand then the people have the right to stand against it. It is not an antigovernment thing it is more of a safety mechanism incase this government spins out of control.

The second amendment is the most important amendment as it is the only one that protects all others. Without it then there is no last resort for the people.

Interesting news out today. The "RACIST!!!" meme doesn't seem to be working

CNN Goes Bundy-Trolling on Racial Issues & Gets Retort from Black Bodyguard They Don't Expect (http://www.ijreview.com/2014/04/132781-cnn-goes-bundy-trolling-racial-issues-gets-retort-black-bodyguard-dont-expect/)

patiotism means defending your country against invaders, standing up for your country, it doesn't mean opposing an elected government. This is why I say that the ideas are all skewed, words no longer mean what they once did, now patriot means rebel

patiotism means defending your country against invaders, standing up for your country, it doesn't mean opposing an elected government. This is why I say that the ideas are all skewed, words no longer mean what they once did, now patriot means rebel
Not here.. you forget... We told the King of England to get stuffed... he was once the government, in fact we fought a war to prove how serious we were about it.

The government is there to serve us... we are not there to serve the government.

I forget nothing, rebellion is rebellion, you were successful after years of conflict and the good luck of remoteness and the fact that your king had many enemies who exploited the situation. By this I am not saying that the Georgian regime didn't handle the situation poorly or with arrogance, but the situation of my nation demonstrates that rebellion is not necessary to achieve the objective of independence

I forget nothing, rebellion is rebellion, you were successful after years of conflict and the good luck of remoteness and the fact that your king had many enemies who exploited the situation. By this I am not saying that the Georgian regime didn't handle the situation poorly or with arrogance, but the situation of my nation demonstrates that rebellion is not necessary to achieve the objective of independence

I take it you refer to your country, that used remoteness and the good luck that your king was too busy with WWI to bother with you to achieve independence.

I take it you refer to your country, that used remoteness and the good luck that your king was too busy with WWI to bother with you to achieve independence.

Cats where did that load of bullshlt come from? My country achieved independence in 1901 when it became the Commonwealth of Australia. It did not fight a war to achieve independence. We fought in WWI and lost many thousands, a generation even, but even then we were a force to be reckoned with, long before your country got off its backside and helped out. Our remoteness did one thing for us, it gave us the will to achieve without relying on those who are fairweather friends

patiotism means defending your country against invaders, standing up for your country, it doesn't mean opposing an elected government. This is why I say that the ideas are all skewed, words no longer mean what they once did, now patriot means rebel

That's a convoluted load of nonsense. Patriotism is devotion to your country, not your elected government. When your elected government oppresses its people they should be opposed. Patriotism means protecting your country from enemies, foreign or domestic.

We have the means to change our governments every two years through the ballots not with guns. Its OUR government, and OUR country. We can argue some may not like it, but when you take up arms against the government its fellow citizens you are looking to shoot, not some invading foreign army. To take up arms against a duly elected government for a fellow that has been basically a squatter, and lost his 20 year old case in court twice is ridicules.

All his fellow ranchers pay their fees and follow the law, he did NOT, and lost in court. He may not recognize the government as legit, MANY do not, but they are bound by the same rule of law we all are. To defend a guy who works outside the law and breaks it, gun or not, beliefs or not is just wrong. He chose to disregard the rules and tries to take the law into his own hands to avoid the consequences of his actions so he is no patriot, or hero. Just another law breaker.

He will be dealt with, peacefully, in time. And so will the vigilante law.

I agree with you Tal supporting Bundy is not patriotism these are the same sort of arguments that started your civil war predicated on the notion that the government doesn't have the right to enforce the law. it is the states rights argument all over again, law at the point of a gun

We have the means to change our governments every two years through the ballots not with guns. Its OUR government, and OUR country. We can argue some may not like it, but when you take up arms against the government its fellow citizens you are looking to shoot, not some invading foreign army. To take up arms against a duly elected government for a fellow that has been basically a squatter, and lost his 20 year old case in court twice is ridicules.

All his fellow ranchers pay their fees and follow the law, he did NOT, and lost in court. He may not recognize the government as legit, MANY do not, but they are bound by the same rule of law we all are. To defend a guy who works outside the law and breaks it, gun or not, beliefs or not is just wrong. He chose to disregard the rules and tries to take the law into his own hands to avoid the consequences of his actions so he is no patriot, or hero. Just another law breaker.

He will be dealt with, peacefully, in time. And so will the vigilante law.

Meanwhile, while waiting for the election you're cool with rights being eroded and government oppression. Funny, but that's not how you lefties reacted to the Bush years. Sorry my friend, we're not going to bend over and take it in the arse either.

Do you need your guns to get to the next election? Of course not. That has nothing to do with the Bundy case either.

Do you need your guns to get to the next election? Of course not. That has nothing to do with the Bundy case either.

Do you need to take them away or oppress any of our other rights to get to the next election? As I said, we're not going to bend over and take it in the while you destroy our rights any more than I would expect you to. Get over it, that's America and defending our county from domestic enemies, including our own government IS patriotic.

defending our county from ... our own government IS patriotic.
What would possibly cause anyone to go after our government with guns? Vote, don't shoot. And -- can't wait to see who has the better firepower and who wins.

Do you need to take them away or oppress any of our other rights to get to the next election? As I said, we're not going to bend over and take it in the while you destroy our rights any more than I would expect you to. Get over it, that's America and defending our county from domestic enemies, including our own government IS patriotic.

what sort of twisted notion is this that insurrection is patriotic. look at the facts, this isn't government oppression, it is a commercial transaction where one party has breached the contract and the government, being the other party,,has the right of redress. It is incidential to the debate that the government (BLM) is one of the parties. This is not WACO although it seems to be a little WACHO.

That your nation was founded in insurrection doesn't justify any civilian action here

Protecting a law breaker isn't patriotic. And no guns have been taken away. Matter of fact gun sales seem to be soaring.

Protecting a law breaker isn't patriotic. And no guns have been taken away. Matter of fact gun sales seem to be soaring.

Thank the ramapnt disgust of Obama, and the complete lack of trust of anyone in his administration for that... people feel the need to protect themselves against the criminal element Obama apparently embraces while he screws the productive part of society... and protect themselves from a government that no longer represnts their best interests.

and there you have the foolishness of this debate, predicated in false information

Nothing false in Obamas class warfare... and race baiting. Its well known in this country. Everything he does is one or the other....some things are both.

really how often does he use the words right wing, red neck, WASP, what is racist is your insistence that since he is black he must be racist, or that since he has concern for the poor or underpriviliged he must be racist, but don't worry three and a little more years from now, you will be shuck of this president who dared to be black. If he were not black the question of racism would not come up

Since this thread has gone off the wall, I would like to make a prediction. " There will be a civil war in this country, and the "Brown Shirt Civilian Army" that Obama wants to form that will be as well equipt as our military will be manned by the 68,000 criminals that Holder is freeing". So much for land grabs.

absolute paranoia

Clete it is a state's power issue. The Feds own over 80% of the land in the state of Nevada . If transferred ,it would benefit the state to the tune of $114 million a year according to the Nevada Public Land Management Task Force .Bundy is right in saying it is the state that should own the land and collect any grazing fees .
Tal says that the other ranchers in the area pay the fees. He should say PAID the fees ,because the BLM used the fees to drive the other ranchers off the land . This is NOT a matter of Bundy being some kind of scoff-law . He is trying to protect his historic grazing rights on the land .
This is similar to another case in the same area. Raymond Yowell, an 84 year-old Shoshone chief, had his herd seized by BLM .They auctioned off his cattle and then sent him an additional bill for $180,000;which they collect by garnishing his Social Security check. He also had historic grazing rights that were bolstered by a treaty the government signed with his tribe (the Treaty of Ruby Valley of 1863). His cattle were on reservation lands . But SCOTUS decided that the government had the power to manage the reservation lands . BLM does not like cattle grazing , so they used the bs endangered desert tortoise canard on him. Yes he also has lost in court ;but in his case ,the 9th Circus Court of Appeals reversed the lower court's decision. He is now representing himself in SCOTUS. He has also sued the BLM and the Treasury Department for $30 million.
Nevada tribal leader, 81, sues BLM for $30M | Reznet News (http://www.reznetnews.org/article/nevada-tribal-leader-81-sues-blm-30m)

Tom the government owns the land, whether they should or not or whether the have acted unlawfully you have courts. As you have demonstrated one plaintiff is using the courts why the other engages in cowboy macho crap

and the one using the courts had his cattle seized and auctioned off and the government is stealing money from his retirement . Does the government wait for courts before acting ?

Protecting a law breaker isn't patriotic.

Says everyone who cheered those filthy, violent, private property destroying occupier squatters.

I don't cheer lawlessness

Tom the government owns the land, whether they should or not or whether the have acted unlawfully you have courts. As you have demonstrated one plaintiff is using the courts why the other engages in cowboy macho crap

What your missing is that it is very dangerous for the fox to be guarding the hen house. Of course the federal government is going to try to rule in its own favor. The largest problem being faced right now is the the government walked out on court proceedings when they were losing and moved the ball to the court that had their back. That is how we got to be where we are at today.

Another thing that you keep missing is that the second amendment prevents another Nazi Germany situation from forming in this country. That is why every citizen needs to be vigilant when it comes to government powers.

The increase in government heavy handedness and the lack of regaurd to rights has been increasing. Drones are overhead and police forces are arming up as only the military used to be. There are laws that prevent the military in domestic situations and now they are trying to make an end around it. That ia why so many are being watchful of this government.

you have a military that can be controlled by a state government, this is where you need to be very carefull. The nazi situation is very unlikely to arise in your country, not because you are armed, but because you don't think in absolutes, and you have never lost a war and degenerated into poverty. however continue to improverish your citizens and we will see

you have never lost a war and degenerated into poverty.

Au contraire. A goodly portion of this continent did precisely that, and were kept in poverty by the very same political party that's in power here right now.

well yes but I'm referring to an external war, not something that is self inflicted. The nazi arose out a loss of a war and the stringent reparations which reduced Germany and created a resentment the nazi could turn to advantage. There was noone looking after their poor. the population you were referring to were a few individuals of privilege amid a population of poor

maybe armed Federal agents should be flexing their muscle here instead .
N4T Investigators: Rogue Mexican Army troops crossing the line | KVOA.com | Tucson, Arizona (http://www.kvoa.com/news/n4t-investigators-rogue-mexican-army-troops-crossing-the-line/)

and in Alaska ,the Feds want to seize Indian lands.
Feds consider taking Alaska tribal land into trust (http://news.yahoo.com/feds-consider-taking-alaska-tribal-land-trust-153452034.html;_ylt=AwrBEiQGm2JTOU8AjzHQtDMD)

The rule barring the department from taking Alaska tribal land into trust dates back to 1980. That's when the program was created for lower 48 Native Americans. It is among "Alaska exceptions" denying Alaska Natives the same rights as lower 48 Indians and it is partly the legacy of the 1971 Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act.
The president of the National Congress of American Indians said he was "greatly encouraged" by the proposed rule change.

What's wrong with Alaskan Indians having the same right of self governance as the other Indians of America? Why should natives be ruled by immigrants?

What's wrong with Alaskan Indians having the same right of self governance as the other Indians of America? Why should natives be ruled by immigrants?

We have a Kenyan doing that now...

No that's an immigrant governing other immigrants and that includes YOU.

you sure you spelt that right

No that's an immigrant governing other immigrants and that includes YOU.


They were immigrants too... they just got here before we did. THey didn't evolve into homosapeans here... they did that someplace else long before they came here.

The trust relationship between the federal government and tribal governments is the foundation of all policies affecting Indian Country," Brian Cladoosby said in a statement released Thursday. "That Alaska Native peoples have been cut out of this critical arrangement is unacceptable and has created myriad problems for those tribes."
I had a long conversation with some Utes when I was at Mesa Verde. They didn't speak so kindly of the" trust relationship between the federal government and tribal governments". Didn't sound like they trusted the Federal Government at all.

Indians have right wingers too? Imagine that.

Indians have right wingers too? Imagine that.

I grew up with several Cherokee whose great grandparents hid from the Feds of Andrew Jackson. They're not real thrilled with the record of the Federal Government's trustworthiness either.

No your history of dealing with indigenous peoples is appalling,What was it they said "white man speaks with forked tongue"? You haven't changed your ways

No your history of dealing with indigenous peoples is appalling,What was it they said "white man speaks with forked tongue"? You haven't changed your ways

Can't say your countries was much better.

Well we didn't set out to cheat them, we didn't exercute treaties and then uproot the natives and move them a thousand miles away or conduct death matches. We didn't make military incursions with the intention of wiping them out, what we did was just ignore their existence for say a hundred years or two. So when you speak about what others have done remember we do what we do with a different ethos and we recognise mistakes and change

Breaking news

Congressman: Bundy Militia Has Set Up Road 'Checkpoints' In Nevada (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/bundy-ranch-militia-checkpoints-horsford)


The militia, as reported by Horsford's constituents, "have set up checkpoints where residents are required to prove they live in the area before being allowed to pass," the letter said.
They have also maintained a presence, sometimes armed, along highways and roads, as well as community sites like churches and schools, the letter asserted.


Trying to confirm reports of skirmishes between rival militias.

so far the only casualty from road blocks in the area was the killing of D’Andre Berghardt Jr by BLM agents.

That was in February. What does that have to do with the militia's policing Bunkerville? Why? On whose authority?

It's a free country... what authority does the BLM have to do what they were doing threatening and shooting people and their animals.

Next thing THe Department of Education will be shooting people for having outstanding parking tickets.

Get a cup of coffee and tell me what you would do if a couple of armed out of state vigilantes asked you to show papers and explain what your business is in YOUR own neighborhood. It's a free country but making it a lawless one in light of your rant about a lawless administration is ridicules and you know it.

To add BLM had a lawful court order to deal with Bundy until those out of state militias showed up. That seems to be a problem for you Smoothy without that cup of coffee you get lame, and entitled and fail to see the utter hypocrisy of your position. Your account of events is grossly inaccurate.

No wonder Obama moons you, and sent you lipstick for Christmas.

That was in February. What does that have to do with the militia's policing Bunkerville? Why? On whose authority?

They aren't policing Bunkerville. They remain on private property with the exception of small groups tagging along with Bundy. Being on private property is no crime so long as it is done with permission. In this case they do have the permission of the owner.

As militia digs in, neighbors grow weary of Cliven Bundy brouhaha - Las Vegas Sun News (http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2014/may/01/militia-digs-neighbors-tired-cliven-bundy-brouhaha/)

Get a cup of coffee and tell me what you would do if a couple of armed out of state vigilantes asked you to show papers and explain what your business is in YOUR own neighborhood. It's a free country but making it a lawless one in light of your rant about a lawless administration is ridicules and you know it.

To add BLM had a lawful court order to deal with Bundy until those out of state militias showed up. That seems to be a problem for you Smoothy without that cup of coffee you get lame, and entitled and fail to see the utter hypocrisy of your position. Your account of events is grossly inaccurate.

No wonder Obama moons you, and sent you lipstick for Christmas.

What business did the BLM have in Nevada with paid mercenary snipers anyway?

And if any of US hired mercenary snipers... we'd be doing a long stint in a Federal prison.

THe BLM isn't the police....they don't have police powers...and they certainly aren't a private army.

Really not surprised Tal...You think the NY Slimes and the Washington comPost Are some kind of pillars of indisputible fact and the only news fit to print....if they don't cover it then it didn't happen. Fact is there are a LOT of things going on ignored by the Pro-Obama press who fudged reality to help get him into office and for the most part are still covering up for all his transgressions......except in a few cases where cracks are forming and they let slip out something not favorible to him from time to time.

The alternative media have more facts on a daily basis than all of the pro-Obama drive by media have in their collective.

What business did the BLM have in Nevada with paid mercenary snipers anyway?

You cannot ignore he was on federal land, and given an order to vacate. Like any other non paying squatter.

And if any of US hired mercenary snipers... we'd be doing a long stint in a Federal prison.

We agree Bundy and his volunteer mercenaries protecting him from arrest should e in federal prison.

THe BLM isn't the police... they don't have police powers... and they certainly aren't a private army.

Yes they do, on federal lands.

THe BLM isn't the police... they don't have police powers... and they certainly aren't a private army.

Yes they do, on federal lands.



Law Enforcement (http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/more/law_enforcement.html)

Law Enforcement (http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/more/law_enforcement.html)

It seems they have a comprenhensive portfolio and authority, a sort of when are the police not the police sort of thing

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd17/italiansport/putin1.png

yeh! funny about that never mind Putin can invade the Ukraine and Obama can take lessons

He probibly has velcro straps on his shoes because he had trouble learning to tie them.

Hey I have velco on my shoes, doesn't make me stupid, I can't reach the laces anymore besides it's quicker and I'm all for not wasting time. Wait, what am I doing here.

get with the future, man, laces are so ninetheenth century, or if you were Tom eighteenth century

There is a big difference between not wanting to tie them and not knowing how to tie them. I think it's a safe bet that you know how to tie them.

Yeh but I used to wear 'lastic sided

Yeh but I used to wear 'lastic sided

We call those loafers... I like them because I can quickly and easily slip them on and off when I come into and leave my house.

Meanwhile the emperor plans on seizing more lands .
Obama to designate national monument in New Mexico - Washington Times (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/may/19/obama-designate-national-monument-new-mexico/)

Seems like the right thing to do:
Our next national monument: New Mexico's Organ Mountains-Desert Peaks | Wilderness.org (http://wilderness.org/our-next-national-monument-new-mexicos-organ-mountains-desert-peaks)

I think we should annex Canada and make the entire thing a National Park.

Ok. It's beautiful here.

Ok. It's beautiful here.


Some of what I've actually seen in the eastern part of the country is. I'd agree. I really liked Prince Edward Island for example. Nova Scotia was nice but a bit rocky for my tates. Can't say Newfoundland really managed to stick in my memory like those two places did.

I can see you guys being mad about the president acting when everybody else drags their feet, and this isn't the first time conservatives have used the excuse of border security to do NOTHING. Actually it adds more government agents to that part of the border to assist local sheriffs, with manpower and resources that they don't have as well as coordinated management where their was hardly NONE!

Closing roads to sheriffs was always BOGUS, an excuse NOT to have to coordinate with federal law enforcement. We have seen this before and always knew the Bundy style free use of public lands was not restricted to just Nevada. This has always been about the authority of duly organized ranchers/cattlemen against the free rangers who obey no rules but their own.

New Mexico Cattle Growers' Association (http://www.nmagriculture.org/Blank-2.html)

Of course its spun as a land grab by conservatives, but the missing FACT is the support of a larger organized and lawful group of ranchers in EVERY state. I pointed out before how Bundy wasn't a member and didn't want to pay dues or follow their regulations either, from the Association in Nevada and had no support from them.

But buy a uninspected cow from Bundy and his ilk. You can't because most slaughterhouses won't accept them.

Range war: County resolves to solve wild horse problem if BLM prioritizes Bundy cattle | St George News (http://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2014/04/04/mgk-range-war-iron-county-will-deal-with-horses/#.U3tvavldW-0)


“The budget calls for an increase of $2.8 million for the Wild Horse and Burro program that would allow the BLM to continue multi-year studies focused on the development of more effective and longer-lasting fertility control agents and techniques,” The BLM said in a statement. “It would also further the BLM's implementation of the National Academy of Sciences recommendations made in 2013.”
On Thursday, the Washington County Commission held an emergency meeting concerning the gathering of Bundy's cattle. It passed a resolution (http://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2014/04/03/jek-counties-take-a-stand-in-blm-bundy-range-war/) against the transport and sale of the cattle across state lines into Utah, citing the cattle may not have been properly immunized and could contaminate other cattle within the state.
Grazing rights on public land in Clark County. Nev., have either been reduced or closed in the last 20 years in order to secure and preserve habitat for the desert tortoise. However, Bundy chose to ignore BLM regulations and has declared the agency unconstitutional, citing a states rights versus federal overreach argument. Now, after 20 years of back-and-forth between Bundy and the BLM (http://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2014/04/03/mgk-range-war-blm-v-bundy/#.Uz7Q3FFdWwk), it and other federal agencies are moving in to physically remove his cattle.


Reducing this widespread complex issue to a spectacular headline is pure CRAP!!

gotta keep the drug runners and human trafficer routes pristine. No doubt the ranchers will be driven off the land in defense of the Organ Mountain Colorado chipmunk and the prickley pear. What the emperor really is doing is ensuring that the Fed government has the say about who gets to exploit the mineral right.
The Feds have had the rights to the eastern flank of this pristine land for ages ... It's where Fort Bliss White Sands Missile Range is . They have been slamming missiles into those mountains for decades.


46058

On the western flank (not shown in your photos ) is grass lands that ranchers have used since before there was a USA .
46057

I'd say that private interests have been better stewards of the land.

I'd say that private interests have been better stewards of the land.I'd say you'd be wrong.


It's where Fort Bliss White Sands Missile Range isAll the more reason to protect the area.

Of course its spun as a land grab by conservatives, but the missing FACT is the support of a larger organized and lawful group of ranchers in EVERY state. I pointed out before how Bundy wasn't a member and didn't want to pay dues or follow their regulations either, from the Association in Nevada and had no support from them.

But buy a uninspected cow from Bundy and his ilk. You can't because most slaughterhouses won't accept them.

All you are doing here is supporting the rent seeking system of trade associations charging fees for admission into exclusive clubs. Your Rancher Associations are nothing more than attempts to restrict their trade to members(the already haves) . You see that in many professions that restrict access in this country . These associations of course have a vested interest in the government providing the muscle for the enforcement of their trade rules.

Yes they have a vested interest in defending themselves and the country from rustlers and thieves.

like the BLM ?

All you are doing here is supporting the rent seeking system of trade associations charging fees for admission into exclusive clubs. Your Rancher Associations are nothing more than attempts to restrict their trade to members. You see that in many professions that restrict access in this country . These associations of course have a vested interest in the government providing the muscle for the enforcement of their trade rules.


Consider the similarities between Labor Unions and Grange Associations. High membership fees, Regulations governing how and when you work, stifling competition by the use of laws: there are differences, but one has to wonder if the Cattle industry is going to go the way of the Auto industry.

Unions are formed and officers are voted on to give workers a voice on wages, benefits, rules, policy and procedure. That how you got a vibrant middle class in America, and why it's not so vibrant now.

Thanks conservatives for screwing that up. No surprise you favor credit downgrades and shrinking capital revenues producing shortfalls in your states budgets, and services, after giving rich guys a tax break. You guys can holler about conservative values but can't count.

Cats .I've made that connection here before in the taxi medallion schemes. Once in the country someone could save until they could purchase a car ...put a taxi sign on the roof ;and be an independent business person. Now that same person needs to become an employee to get a job driving a car,and can almost never hope to advance beyond .

Unions are formed and officers are voted on to give workers a voice on wages, benefits, rules, policy and procedure. That how you got a vibrant middle class in America, and why it's not so vibrant now.

Thanks conservatives for screwing that up. No surprise you favor credit downgrades and shrinking capital revenues producing shortfalls in your states budgets, and services, after giving rich guys a tax break. You guys can holler about conservative values but can't count.

Unions stifle individual achievement . Suddenly seniority counts more than merit .Overachieving on the job is discouraged .

Your spin is wasted on a union member Tom. It's a false narrative. No merit based in fact. Just repeating talking points.

In NY, yes. In Illinois, not so much. My husband could keep you up all night with stories about the CWA in NY.


Unions stifle individual achievement . Suddenly seniority counts more than merit .Overachieving on the job is discouraged .

Despite having been in a Union almost 2/3 of my working life... I'm not going to defend them because I've seen so much of their protecting their friends at the expense of others paying the same dues I really lost any trust in them that I ever had... which wasn't abundent to begin with.

I didn't have a choice... the job was a closed shop... if I wanted it , I had to join. It was a bad time of the year to get a job After fiscal years ended, but before they really had the plans and budgets in place for the next... and I needed a job at that time as previous employer went belly up..

It wasn't all bad though either... they did do a few good things , but really I wouldn't even call it a wash. Certain Unions should not exist..or be allowed to exist. Federal and State and local workers for one.....Police and Emergency workers for another. And Above all Teachers.....shouldn't have a union.

THey did spectacularly well up until roughly 35 years ago until the PC crap started being more important than teaching the important stuff that kids NEED to know in the world.

Your spin is wasted on a union member Tom. It's a false narrative. No merit based in fact. Just repeating talking points.you must think I have no experience on this . See WG's comment . What she says about NY is true . I also have experiences in states with right to work rules.

Despite having been in a Union almost 2/3 of my working life... I'm not going to defend them because I've seen so much of their protecting their friends at the expense of others paying the same dues I really lost any trust in them that I ever hadSo why didn't you get out??

So why didn't you get out??

After 20 years... I've earned a rather significant severance package. Like many others... When I get my package... I'm banking it and moving on to the next employer... I've got 4 or 5 lined up right now.

Your severance package is a negotiated benefit of being in a union, as was mine.

After 20 years... I've earned a rather significant severance package.Money talks, that's why unions exist. You stayed because it worked for you.


moving on to the next employer... I've got 4 or 5 lined up right now.I doubt that.

Your severance package is a negotiated benefit of being in a union, as was mine.

Severance packages are also part of the non-union part of the company as well. Its not just unions that have them. But because they are negotiated... there will be some degree of difference in the amount. Every non-union place I worked at previously had severance packages based on your length of service.

Money talks, that's why unions exist. You stayed because it worked for you.

I doubt that.

Yeah.. well I Learned decades ago... you do what's best for you... thats what everyone else does.

Doubt all you want... I've got an open offer at three different employers already... and a couple more I've got a really good shot at, good enough to be considered a sure thing.

It helps to have a skill set that not a lot of people have, and significant experience to back it up that is in demand in my area... and it helps to know the right people, I've had a standing offer from one of those employers for the last 5 years. I've known the CEO for the last 17 years. He's said they will create an opening for me if I want it, and when I need it.

That severance package would pay for a rather well equipped brand new Corvette convertible and a few years worth of insurance if I didn't plan on investing it towards retirement. There is a significant finacial encintive to hang around until I have it in hand.

Yeah.. well I Learned decades ago... you do what's best for you... thats what everyone else does.So why are you always criticizing what other people do?

So why are you always criticizing what other people do?

Some people go WAYYYYY overboard when they do it. And break existing laws. When Obama, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Ried get rich over years doing exactly what Martha Stewart went to jail for doing just once (and I'm no fan of hers either)....yeah..lets just say I've got a reason to complain.

When Obama, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Ried get rich over yearsI'll type slowly for you:
THEY ALL DO IT. IT'S NOT ONLY ONE PARTY.

The Union Advantage: Facts and Figures (http://www.seiu.org/a/ourunion/research/union-advantage-facts-and-figures.php)

How unions help all workers | Economic Policy Institute (http://www.epi.org/publication/briefingpapers_bp143/)

Union questions auto execs' pay packages - USATODAY.com (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-10-09-auto-exec-pay_N.htm)

Union Workers Earn More Than Nonunion (http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/jobsemployment/a/unionwages.htm)

Unions, inequality, and faltering middle-class wages | Economic Policy Institute (http://www.epi.org/publication/ib342-unions-inequality-faltering-middle-class/)

A major factor driving these trends has been the ongoing erosion of unionization and the declining bargaining power of unions, along with the weakened ability of unions to set norms or labor standards that raise the wages of comparable nonunion workers. This preview of the forthcoming The State of Working America, 12th Editionpresents a detailed analysis of the impact of unionization on wages and benefits and on wage inequality. Key findings include:


The union wage premium—the percentage-higher wage earned by those covered by a collective bargain­ing contract—is 13.6 percent over­all (17.3 percent for men and 9.1 percent for women).
Unionized workers are 28.2 percent more likely to be covered by employer-provided health insurance and 53.9 percent more likely to have employer-provided pensions.
From 1973 to 2011, the share of the workforce represented by unions declined from 26.7 percent to 13.1 percent.
The decline of unions has affected middle-wage men more than any other group and explains about three-fourths of the expanded wage gap between white- and blue-collar men and over a fifth of the expanded wage gap between high school– and college-edu­cated men from 1978 to 2011.
An expanded analysis that includes the direct and norm-setting impact of unions shows that deunionization can explain about a third of the entire growth of wage inequality among men and around a fifth of the growth among women from 1973 to 2007.



Facts over fiction and talking points.

I'll type slowly for you:
THEY ALL DO IT. IT'S NOT ONLY ONE PARTY.

Nancy Pelosi and Harry Ried BOTH were not rich when they got into office... but accumulated wealth far beyond what they earned through insider trading... and they earned almost their entire wealth from it. Nancy Pelosis husbands business depends on being steered insider information and contracts from her.


Its not like they earned it working before they got into office... like a lot of others actually did... They were just the worst offenders, and the most pompous a s s e s of the bunch.

Just more proof they should be held to the same laws adn the same standards everyone else is.

http://liberty.davar.net/Images/Humor/PatrioticBlinders.jpg

NK... Ever grasp the concept that you get better results if you take out the major players in crime and it makes an impression if THEY don't get away with it the lttle guys aren't either.

THey do that in Canda too.

Or is everything in Canada... "Its ok as long as its MY guy doing it, but YOU better not even think of it."

"Its ok as long as its MY guy doing it, but YOU better not even think of it."That's EXACTLY what you are doing.

That's EXACTLY what you are doing.No, that's exactly all YOU ever do.

<sigh>

round an round an round we go, why don't you two get a room?

To do what? Sorry, I don't play that way. ;-)

A Canadian an American and an Australian walked into a bar, the Canadian said he would have Canadian Club, the American said he would have Rye and the Australian said he would have a bundy!