The Obama administration will let it go forward, but to save face will probably throw some conditions on it as a sop to the environmentalists. What do you think?


I like to think of myself as a "reasonable" person when it comes to balancing environmental issues with industry and jobs. But I honestly don't understand the intense opposition that KXL has engendered. The arguments against it are pretty much along the lines of "oil from tar sands is really dirty, compared to oil pumped from a well," and "we should be encouraging development of alternate sources of energy rather than enabling access to more fossil fuel." I can accept that both of these statements are true, but they are also both irrelevant to the question of whether a pipeline should be built. It's not up to the US to dictate to Canada whether they should or should not get their oil from tar sands, Canada has already made that decision. The only question is whether the US should enable sending it via pipeline to the Gulf of Mexico for export, or say no and have Canada continue to ship oil via train (which as we've seen can lead to horrific accidents, such as teh deralment and fire in Quebec) or perhaps build their own pipeline. I have yet to hear from those oppsoed to K-XL why either of these two options is better environmentally than K-XL would be. What am I missing?

Oil and energy producers have a very bad record of clean up and response to disasters they are responsible for. Simple research yields some devastating effects on people and just the water supplies. You cannot ignore those effect, unless it's really profitable.

THe environazi's just want us to be beholden to the troglodytes in the Middle east... and give them all our money.

Oil and energy producers have a very bad record of clean up and response to disasters they are responsible for. Simple research yields some devastating effects on people and just the water supplies. You cannot ignore those effect, unless it's really profitable.

You are using the arguyment that all pipelines are inherentkly bad, not that K-XL is any better or worse. Given that tens of thousands of miles of pipelines already exist, why is the final leg of K-XL any more dangerous? Isn't it less dangerous than shipping oil by rail, which is what they're currently doing?

THe environazi's just want us to be beholden to the troglodytes in the Middle east... and give them all our money.

In fairness, the oil from K-XL is intended mostly for export, not for use in the US. Thus whether it's built or not has no bearing on how much money the US sends to the mideast for oil.

They could slow those trains down and keep the tracks in good condition to prevent derailments, AND keep the engineers alert.

They could slow those trains down and keep the tracks in good condition to prevent derailments, AND keep the engineers alert.

Perhaps. Are you saying that shipping via rail is more environmentally friendly than shipping by pipeline? Really?

In fairness, the oil from K-XL is intended mostly for export, not for use in the US. Thus whether it's built or not has no bearing on how much money the US sends to the mideast for oil.Yes... but there will still be lots of jobs for everyone involved along the way... and that's money paid by those who buy that exported oil... that pays the wages of everyone building and maintaining it... and the Canadians involved in getting it out of the ground and to the port.

All money coming in... rather than going out. And thats money thats not going to the Middle east.

Perhaps. Are you saying that shipping via rail is more environmentally friendly than shipping by pipeline? Really?

YES, as rail failures are attributed to human error and can be corrected unlike the pollution of entire communities devastated by leaks, neglect, or bad business practices. Think Colorado, SC, WVA, Michigan, just to name a few recent ones. If they didn't maintain older facilities and pipelines what evidence is there they will a new one?

Research it yourself and you tell me.

The record on pipeline maintenance over years is abysmal, and affects PEOPLE, and where they live horribly for a VERY long time. Exxon Valez???? BP Gulf spill???? Two of many examples.

ebaines ,you are correct . It makes little sense to block the pipeline . The emperor is appeasing a core constituency ;but after this year there will be no more reason for him to do so. If his party standard bearer is Evita Clinton ,then she will be hurt in the polls if she adopts the Emperor's job killing policies. He stalled by approving the southern section of the pipeline ....which is useless unless the rest of the line is built .

The oil is going to be refined and exported anyway . If not from American facilities then from another nation. The Canadians already have a back up plan to pipe it to Vancouver .

Good let them screw up their own land and water.

And the jobs are only temporary -- done at great (permanent) risk to the U.S. environment and residents.

There isn't any permanent harm to the environment here... or its residents... (your average section 8 housing project does far worse to the environment and the people than the entire pipeline would) and many of the jobs are permanent... you don't just build a pipeline and walk away from it. Well in Nigeria you might.....but the Alaska pipeline has employed thousands if not hundreds of thousands since it was built...those jobs didn't just disappear. (Yes I know a few people that helped build that pipeline). Wildlife has actually flourished since it was built around the pipeline...just the opposite of what the doom and gloom environazi's were claiming would happen.

And the people that do that sort of work... don't do ONLY that sort of work. THeir isn't a superspecialised job field of people who nothing but installing pipelines and can't do anything else)

You have Surveyours, COnstraction, metal fabrication.. etc... all of them existing industries in that area that are aching for work.

There isn't any permanent harm to the environment
You're planning to move near the pipeline, to admire it daily once it's complete? or it's wonderful as long as it's NIMBY?

Yes, most of the jobs will be temporary.

You're planning to move near the pipeline, to admire it daily once it's complete? or it's wonderful as long as it's NIMBY?

Yes, most of the jobs will be temporary.

Care to back that up with reliable stats? Perhaps the entire construction industry should just close up... same with the steel fabrication industry because all of those jobs are always temproray too... until the next contract comes in.

That pipeline isn't in your back yard either. I'm actually closer to a lot of petrolium and major natural gas pipelines than probibly most people are. I'm within 20 miles of two major regional tank farms one of them only about 5 miles away. All supplied by pipelines..(which are actually a LOT closer in some cases) . its carried away in trucks to its destinations...

The only time there is a problem its usually some idoit in a backhoe responsible. Around here they are buried....the above ground ones are a lot easier to inspect and detect a problem.

And the jobs are only temporary -- done at great (permanent) risk to the U.S. environment and residents.

Is the environmental risk greater for this pipeline than for others? There are currently 2.6 million miles of pipelines in the US, and by all estimates pipleines are safer than other means of transport such as truck or rail, and certainly more efficient - hence less carbon dioxide put in the air for those of you who are concerned about that. I have to wonder if the "great risk" is really that great. Would you ban all gas and oil pipelines in the US?

Do you live near a pipeline that's leaked for who knows how long?

BP Lake Michigan Oil Spill: Did Tar Sands Spill Into the Great Lake? | Steve Horn (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-horn/bp-lake-michigan-oil-spil_b_5051130.html)


With a drinking water source for seven million people at stake, this "tar sands name game" is one with high stakes indeed.

Think its easier to slow a train down than clean a river, lake or water source? I got links to oil spills from every state darn near so you tell me what's the cause and effects of profits from fossil fuels.

I have a better idea... All the people opposed to the pipeline be legally required to register... and then they will be denied acces to any and all petrolium products since they feel they are so aweful and evil.....they shouldn't be usiung them themselves.


See how many are willing to practice what they preach.

How about the people who have to have water trucked in?

Hmmmm, I drink Lake Michigan water.

THey used to have people running around claiming the first Atomic bomb test was going to set the atmoshpere on fire and incinerate the planet.


That didn't happen either.

They still can't drink the water in West Virginia, that's still happening.

I know lots of people in West Virginia that are drinking the water... perfectly safe water... better tasting and cleaner than what most of the Southwest and deep south call drinking water.

West Virginia isn't the size of Delaware.

You know full well what community I speak of,

» This Is What Water Looks Like In West Virginia Right Now? Thanks To ?Freedom Industries? (http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2014/04/03/this-is-what-water-looks-like-in-west-virginia-right-now-thanks-to-freedom-industries/)

You said West Virginia... most of West Virginia doesn't get its water from that source.

And who cares about the people who do....

Gee... Chicago managed to survive how many decades with the cesspool that ran through it...and New York and London...etc...


And those were far, far worse....and were that way GENERATIONS.

I can guarantee that the water that flows out of the City of Chicago treatment plant is safer for you to drink than for me to drink from a natural spring in the Catskill Mountains . The sewer treatment plant water that discharges into our local river is safer to drink than water flowing down the river . The Jardine Water Purification Plant pumps a billion gallons daily to Chitown consumers ;and it's perfectly safe.

Gee... Chicago managed to survive how many decades with the cesspool that ran through it...and New York and London...etc...


And those were far, far worse....and were that way GENERATIONS.
And how many people got sick and died from the water and mosquitoes and who knows what?

That's great but have you looked at map of the people who live along stream rivers and creeks and depend on them for their water? The ruralpeople don't count when it comes to making money, and big messes.

maybe the people in W Va can go back to work in the coal mines ....oops no they can't the emperor already told us that when he's finished ,the coal industry will cease to exist.
Maybe al those rural people in W Va can construct windmills

And how many people got sick and died from the water and mosquitoes and who knows what?


Well the Chicago river is famous for once being so polluted it caught fire.

maybe the people in W Va can go back to work in the coal mines ....oops no they can't the emperor already told us that when he's finished ,the coal industry will cease to exist.
Maybe al those rural people in W Va can construct windmills

WEST VIRGINIA COAL FACTS (http://www.wvminesafety.org/wvcoalfacts.htm)

WEST VIRGINIA COAL FACTS (http://www.wvminesafety.org/wvcoalfacts.htm)

Yes so a transition is needed there as it is in other places. The thing is you are either signed on to the climate change agenda or you are not, no amount of statistics on how beneficial an industry is will make any difference, some industries that employed vast numbers of workers have disappeared; ie, Ice harvesting and storage, Feed and grain for horses and even more will disappear in the future, who remembers comptometer operators, switchboard operators, typists. The use of coal will decline, just as the use of other minerals will decline and something will take their place.

The argument we still have to have is whether our attempts to modify climate change are of any practical as opposed to theoretical use. The Canutists among us still want to turn the tide and maintain the status quo, whilst others understand change is inevietable and we need to put our energies into changing the way we do things to mitigate the impacts

My rebut to Tom statement is the coal industry is alive and well in WVA.

But a person who has seen a recent version of the revised rule said it would propose an emissions limit of 1,100 pounds of carbon dioxide per megawatt hour for coal plants and 1,000 pounds per megawatt hour for large gas-fired plants. Last year’s version was only slightly different, setting a 1,000-pound limit for both types of plants.....

The person and others briefed on the rule said such stringent limits would ban new coal plants, which generally release about twice as much carbon dioxide as the proposed limits. Even the newest, most advanced coal-fired power plants in the world would fall far short of that revised standard, they said.


The only way coal plants could comply is to capture carbon-dioxide emissions and stick them underground—a costly process that hasn’t been demonstrated at commercial scale before.

EPA Plan to Curb New Coal-Fired Power Plants - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323864604579069550916021262?mg=ren o64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB1000 1424127887323864604579069550916021262.html)

Basically ,the coal industry will be reduced to whatever export business it can garner .

They can upgrade to higher efficiency air pollution technology. You know like the horse for a space shuttle. Rotary dial phones to a Samsung.

sequestration is a pipedream, what has to be done is find a use for carbon dioxide, I don't know why research isn't headed in that direction, extract and use the carbon and return the oxygen to the atmosphere

what has to be done is find a use for carbon dioxide
like growing food ?

like growing food ?

And dump the excess into the world's oceans

well it's a possibility, saturated growing environments, but more than that carbon is useful, sometimes the way it is used is highly polluting, like refining silicon surely we can find a way to use the gas instead of the raw element, or as an additive to steel. the steel industry was revolutionised by oxygen lancing why not carbon dioxide lancing. We are too set in our thought patterns, looking for incremental solutions, bound up in a science which is actually repeating what we have already done. If we can make ships out of steel we can make ships out of carbon and then......................

What Are the Uses of Carbon Dioxide Gas? | eHow (http://www.ehow.com/list_6364016_uses-carbon-dioxide-gas.html)

http://www.psr.org/assets/pdfs/coals-assault-chapter-2.pdf

yes tal done the research looking to go beyond

I'm an environmentalist too, but I find the mindless, knee-jerk opposition by extremists to the pipeline is embarrassing, and will cause reasonable environmentalists to not be taken seriously in the future. Pipelines are not perfect, but are much safer than shipping oil by rail, look at the disaster in Quebec. I'm mad at Obama for leaving Canada hanging like this, I wish Canada could retaliate with some kind of sanctions, but that won't happen.

earl ,pipe it to Vancouver and hope the next American adm don't have their heads up their arse . The emperor has back stabbed most American allies . You should not be surprised that he does it to Canada too.

Yes why not take the shorter route to the west coast obviously america doesn't need another pipeline

The emperor decided to delay the Keystone decision until after the elections ... they are cheering in the Kremlin.

don't see the problem here, there already is a pipeline that runs all the way from Canada to the gulf, augmenting it shouldn't cause a problem. the route includes other pipelines, either you want the business or you don't

Actually Tom it was a judge that held up the works.

Keystone Decision Delayed by U.S. Over Nebraska Court Case (1) - Businessweek (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-04-18/keystone-xl-decision-delayed-by-u-dot-s-dot-over-nebraska-route-doubts)


The pipeline's path in Nebraska, one of three states the northern leg of Keystone would cross, was thrown into doubt in February when a state judge invalidated legislation that let the Republican governor approve the path. The judge said that only the state Public Service Commission -- an agency created to take politics out of decisions involving the taking of land for private projects -- had that power. His decision has been appealed to the Nebraska Supreme Court.

actually this has nothing to do with the court and everything to do with mid-term elections . The emperor of course will use any excuse because he has a divided constituency on this ....The enviro-wackos want it stopped at all cost ,and his union constituency want it approved because of the jobs. He has delayed a decision for over 5 years now ,so to say some court case is the cause for the delay is a ruse .

Tom there is no hurry you have all the time in the world, afterall if that do nothing congress couldn't get it done, nobody will. Meanwhile you keep the oil on the american continent, you might need it

I believe that commerce creates jobs. Although I love the idea of complete energy independence ,I also think being an energy exporter would help remedy the trade imbalance. Geopolitically ,I think it's critical to end the energy dominance of the ME nations ,Russia ,and other various despots .

look you go for independence and let them serve the Chinese market, the smog will eventually bury them, just a twist on the Marxist maxim, we will sell the last communist the oil to drown himself, just not our oil

For guys who holler states rights you sure get pissed when a state exercises its right. Funny how you want the Emperor to circumvent the decisions of Nebraska.

I never holler 'states rights' .States don't have rights ;people do. States have powers. The Federal Government has limited enumerated powers ;and the States are prohibited from exercising some powers . ALL the rest are designated to the States by the Constitution. btw ,what part of the Article 1 Sec 8 clause 3 don't you understand ? The Constitution gives Congress the power to (regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, ..... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commerce_Clause) ). For once the Commerce clause will be properly employed by the Feds. But I agree that powerful special interests support the anti-pipeline coalition . I expect unfortunately that Keystone will be another issue decided by the Imperial SCOTUS .

LOL, and there are no special interest groups fighting for Keystone? The governor tried an end run around state law in Nebraska, and lost and the appeal process is the next lawful step. TransCanada hasn't even said they would sell any oil to the US.

And states do have rights, the right to use their powers in their own interest. Will it go to the Supreme court? Not likely this year.

Will it go to the Supreme court? Not likely this year.
Not this year .Their docket is full. So the emperor gets his way again.. Doing well by doing nothing . If it fractures his coalition ,it aint his problem either since he really doesn't care who runs Congress ,and he doesn't really care who the next POTUS is.

I wouldn't worry about the democratic coalition when there are bigger fish to fry. This is but one issue to be debated and resolved. You won't hear Keystone as much as you will hear Benghazi, and even louder more repeal of the ACA this summer.

If I were the Dems I would . The emperor put a knife in the back of the coalition with the Keystone delay ,and the upcoming Cadillac Tax in Obamacare . The private unions are ripe for the picking of any conservative candidate who can reforge the Reagan coalition.

I doubt that Tom. Wishful conservative thinking at this point.

even the Compost editorial board concluded that further delays is insanity
Keystone XL’s continued delay is absurd - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/keystone-xls-continued-delay-is-absurd/2014/04/23/81dab79c-c98c-11e3-95f7-7ecdde72d2ea_print.html)

Opinions mean nothing in the context of policy and procedure of the citizens of the state of Nebraska. They are following their own state constitution. Hell if Nebraska was trying to tell NY what's best for them you would talk about them like a dog.

Sort of like Georgia with its new gun laws?

Except this pipeline involves interstate commerce....so its not exclusively up to one state. It neither starts nor ends in that one state

I gave my opinion of Georgia, and called them crazy. Keystone goes through Nebraska, they have a say. Eminent Domain, and the rights of passage, and progress by government state, local, or business is a way of life in America. You take the money, fight for more, or go to court, or all the above.

Its a process, NOT an event.

I gave my opinion of Georgia, and called them crazy. Keystone goes through Nebraska, they have a say. Eminent Domain, and the rights of passage, and progress by government state, local, or business is a way of life in America. You take the money, fight for more, or go to court, or all the above.

Its a process, NOT an event.

Historical and legal precidence has shown interstate commerce concerns trump individual states rights to deny something...because those are Federal.

Not in this case. Individual states have to issue a permit before the feds can take any action, other than render an opinion,which is NOT binding until said permits are issued. The only thing the feds can do is give final approval to cross the border. These are NOT federal lands but private ones.

When it comes to interstate commerce... and one state doing its best to prevent it... the feds can simply overrule them on it... and the feds have historically used the Interstate commerce clause to ram through a lot of things that are barely connected to Interstate commerce than this case whch is precicesly all about just that.

For example the crap not long ago involving Mexican truck drivers when state said they were going to block Mexican tagged trucks operating in or passing through their states and the Feds jumped in And claimed otherwise.

I would have thought the government NOT shoving stuff down peoples throats was something you would favor, having railed against it often.

This is one of the very rare times... its something actually good for everyone involved. 99.9% of the time its ramming something down peoples throat virtually nobody wants... like Obamacare or higher taxes.

Obamacare is gaining favorable ground, even in red states that refused to expand medicaid, and nobody's taxes have gone up.

The majority of Democrats don't even like or want it ( and even far fewer independents and Republicans do)... and the numbers have been seriously fudged... few have actually paid for anything yet. And even fewer of them are happy about it or its cost. Everyone's costs are going up... not even Obama is claiming its going to save anyone money like he used to. And the only way anyone is getting a break..is because someone else is getting robbed and forced to pay for it. Very few people believe anything he says... the lame stream media isn't automatically giving him a free pass on everything any more.

Its well known anything he supports or opposes... pivots on who is slipping him the most money. George Soros would cut the gravey train off if he didn't do what he was told.

Crisis in Ukraine... and he's off running to Asia... but then he ran off to a fundraiser rather than deal with Benghazi, who actually expected him to do his job.. I guess another trip to Hawaii is due when he gets back from galavanting around Asia.

you know how it goes; glad handing your trading partners and reassuring the competition. This is the time for cementing Chinese relations, they maybe needed to balance out Russia. There can only be one beneficiary of another european war. Time for the US to get a grip and stop touting that flag around the world

Opinions mean nothing in the context of policy and procedure of the citizens of the state of Nebraska. They are following their own state constitution. Hell if Nebraska was trying to tell NY what's best for them you would talk about them like a dog.

BS , the specifics of the route has nothing to do with the emperor delaying a policy statement that it's the US intention to complete the pipeline . I already gave you the constitutional premise. God knows the Dems have used the Commerce Clause for all types of government over-reach. In this case it would be the clause used as the Constitution intends it .
The fact is that this has NOTHING to do with the citizens of Nebraska's wishes. Pipelines criss cross the state over the very land that the pipeline will be built.
The only real issue is that the emperor is kow-towing to an extremist constituency ;and their wealthy patrons like Warren Buffett and Tom Steyer.

you know how it goes; glad handing your trading partners and reassuring the competition. This is the time for cementing Chinese relations, they maybe needed to balance out Russia. There can only be one beneficiary of another european war. Time for the US to get a grip and stop touting that flag around the world
The emperor is in Asia trying to reassure our strategic partners that we have their back against an increasingly more aggressive China. What is disturbing is that his foreign policy has been feckless ,and that is what makes this trip necessary.

It is time to get new foriegn policy objectives, the objectives of the Cold War are no longer good enough

We already know where the emperor would lead us.....from a global power to a hemospheric power ...to a regional ..power ... to a 2nd rate power barely able to defend it's borders.

you are already unable to defend your borders, what is all this carping about defending your borders? We don't need global powers, that is an idea which is last century

Odd since you really need to be worried about Chinas aggression in your own region. Perhaps your country thinks it could deal with it alone?

Back to the subject,

Petroleum coke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_coke)


Storage, disposal, and sale[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Petroleum_coke&action=edit&section=6)]Nearly pure carbon, petcoke is a potent source of carbon dioxide if burned.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_coke#cite_note-OCIJanuary2013-4)
Petroleum coke may be stored in a pile near an oil refinery pending sale. One example, as of 2013, was the large stockpile owned byKoch Carbon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_Industries) near the Detroit River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_River) which was produced by a Marathon Petroleum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marathon_Petroleum) refinery in Detroit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit,_Michigan) which began refining bitumen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitumen)from the oil sands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_sands) of Alberta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta) in November, 2012. Large stockpiles of petcoke also existed in Canada as of 2013. China and Mexico were markets for petcoke exported from California to be used as fuel. As of 2013 the EPA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Environmental_Protection_Agency) was declining permits to use petcoke as fuel in the United States but markets existed in India and Latin America where it was used to fuel cement manufacture. As of 2013 Oxbow Corporation, owned by William I. Koch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Koch_(businessman)), was a major dealer in petcoke, selling 11 million tons annually.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_coke#cite_note-NYT51713-5)

Most states have no regulation for the proper storage of this product, and where there is no regulation, there is no consideration for the safety of surrounding communities. Too much to expect a corporation for voluntary common sense safe practice procedures?

well there you have it . The Canadians got tired of waiting for the waffling emperor and decided to instead approve the Enbridge Northern Gateway pipeline to their west coast. This is a half year since Canadian Foreign Minister John Baird said "the time for Keystone is now.
Who is really driving this decision ? Warren Buffet ,who's trains bring the crude from the Dakotas to the refineries ? Or Tom Steyer ,Dem donor who's fortune is invested in alt energy ?
So now instead of heading to American refineries ,for Americans to produce ,the Canadian crude will ship to Asia for refining. That's 42,000 jobs lost between construction and production according to the emperor's own State Dept.

Satan really does live in a White House.

Keystone Pipeline Jobs - How Many Would Be Created (http://uspolitics.about.com/od/energy/a/Are-Keystone-Pipeline-Jobs-Estimates-Just-Pipe-Dreams.htm)

Pipe Dreams: How Many Jobs Will Be Created By Keystone XL? - Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/sites/energysource/2013/05/10/pipe-dreams-how-many-jobs-will-be-created-by-keystone-xl/)

Keystone XL refineries already exporting 60 percent of their gasoline - The Price of Oil (http://priceofoil.org/2013/03/14/keystone-xl-refineries-already-exporting-60-percent-of-their-gasoline/)

Satan really does live in a White House.There is no such thing as satan, it's a made-up construct to keep people frightened.

That's not the opinion of Iran they see the nation of USA as satan but back to the OP americans should be glad of this decision it strikes an important blow for the environment

nonsense . The oil will be refined with less controls .

Tal ,it's your emperor's State Dept that says the pipeline creates 42,000 jobs. All you envirowackos are Luddites .

yes but it won't be piped through sensitive environmental areas and those areas won't be distrubed by pipeline construction. Meanwhile the pristine rockies will suffer some degregation but as noone lives there noone will see it which is much like the rest of Canada. Now I know there is a certain senselessness in the decision since oil is already exported from this source to the US by pipeline but Canada is in charge of its own destiny. As far as the questions of emissions at the refinery, in keeping with your other policies in pollution exportation where would you like them to be emitted?

yes but it won't be piped through sensitive environmental areas and those areas won't be distrubed by pipeline construction

instead it's transported by rail . You think that's safer ? This was a month ago.
Virginia train crash and explosion sends crude oil spilling into James River (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/04/30/virginia-train-crash-and-explosion-sends-crude-oil-spilling-into-james-river/)

Either way ,the oil will still be transported by pipeline through environmentally sensitive areas . But now it will be shipped as crude to be refined elsewhere.

exactly, it was being shipped hundreds even thousands of miles to be refined then shipped out, now it will be piped hundreds of miles then shipped out. I really don't see the difference expect the US doesn't get to wet its beak. You are complaining you lost some business, that's what procrastination will do and it seems to me that obstructionism can work both ways, who would have thought? Either way it will get the oil off US rail so you have a win, reduced risk for you, reduced environmental problems for you and yet you are not happy

I am unhappy with the emperor who is hostile to jobs because he is catering to a small extremist wacko constituency . This decision will burn his party ;a party that used to care about the working person.

Neither party cares about you, haven't you figured that out yet? They promise you the moon during the election cycle then once in they cater to the corporate/special interest groups that line their pockets. This has been going on for decades.

yeah that's always the last line of defense here .....' both sides do it'. But unlike the libs here ;I take on both parties

yeah that's always the last line of defense here .....' both sides do it'.No that's your line of defense. My point is that your efforts should be better spent trying to change that system.


;I take on both partiesLOL, no you don't. You're a fanatical right-winger that only seeks to besmirch all that is not ultra-conservative.

when the Repubics act like big government libs I take them on. The libs here never criticize their own. They are a bunch of cheerleading Obots.

This place a big conservative echo chamber. That's why you like it here.

this gets more seriel as time goew by Tom critising the conservatives

wrong again clete . Did not say I criticize conservatives . But you have seen me take on Republican polices frequently .

I think you are more flexible, and pragmatic than the average conservative Tom. There is hope for you. I suspect your free market ideology makes you forget the human equation in your stated positions though. I just feel the system is rigged in many unfair ways, and was designed to be from the start.

the human equation is all I'm thinking of . The pipeline allows us to EXPORT oil . That jobs for humans and it also helps the trade balance which also benefits humans .

Tom pragmatic? he just flip flops now and again

It's not a matter of pragmatism . I'm true to my convictions . If the Repubics do the right thing I'm on board . But they don't always do so. Too often they are big government Democrat lite. It makes sense from their point of view. They are dependent on the system for their perpetual employment in the beltway . I say term limit the whole group of them.

No Tom term limit everybody, kick those do nothing reps out and kick those do nothing senators out along with them, it's probable you have reached the point where you can't afford to have a President for more than one term too

Keystone related, the congress both dem and repubs are joining forces against the president's trade policies.

Democrats and Republicans pick a trade fight with Obama. | Trade Reform: News and Opinion on Trade and the EconomyTrade Reform: News and Opinion on Trade and the Economy (http://www.tradereform.org/2014/05/democrats-republicans-pick-trade-fight-obama/)

This is huge folks, bigger than a pipeline. And also brewing below the radar,

http://www.tradereform.org/2014/06/senators-tell-ustr-asia-trade-pact-jeopardy-without-currency-provisions/

Now we are getting down to the real stuff.

We ship gas in pipe lines all over the Untied States. Anyone ever discussed building the refineries in the Dakotas and shipping the gas from there?

why don't they build a refinery in canada

Am I wrong in my assumption that there isn't any oil in the Balkans in the Dakotas? My brother-in-law has been out there somewhere running at least 3 trucks 24/7 and is just one of many. Please correct me if my assumption is wrong. My feeling is if the oil we have here is not going to serve the US and Canadian populations, then why make the pipeline. The US citizens are tired of being the "elevator people" -promised the elevator and ending up with the shaft. Let me see now, is it NAFTA or SHAFTA? Some of the Arab countries pay a fraction for the cost of their oil and gas that we do. Imagine what $1.50 a gallon gas and fuel would do for our own economy. I can't run the numbers for you, but I suspect it would have a larger affect than the jobs building the pipeline would and for all sections of the country, not the affected states and a little spill over. Why make just the Texans rich? I don't have an issue with building the pipeline, but let's get the benefits of the risk involved. Let's go for the elevator this time around.

not easy to build new refineries in the US with all the regulations .
But a 200,000 bbl /day refinery broke ground in N Dakota last year .Before this one ,the last new refinery built to do 100,000 bbl /day was in 1977 . Some of the old refineries have been upgraded ;and a lesser capacity refinery was completed in Wyoming in 2008 . But as of today ,there are only 143 refineries operating in the US . When the Dems talk of infrastructure investment though you never hear them mention the need to increase refining capacity . Instead ,they are now considering exporting crude instead of refining it here . I'm sure all those foreign refineries have the safe guards that US refineries have .

Imagine what $1.50 a gallon gas and fuel would do for our own economy. I can't run the numbers for you, but I suspect it would have a larger affect than the jobs building the pipeline would and for all sections of the country,
100% correct . Our economic growth would double with lower energy costs .

However ,it is not just a supply and demand issue . A major part of our costs are tied to loose monetary polices. When the dollar is devalued to the value of monopoly money ,there has to be an inflationary affect.

I agree with you there. I'll be blunt. The big boys, Democrats and Republicans don't really give a %$#@ about you, me and the rest of the general population. The 6 figure paycheck that we provide doesn't even pay the rent for most of them.

I like blunt and agree that both of the parties in power suck. The only difference between them is that the Repubs think that they would be more efficient managers of the nanny state . But both of them live and die in support of big government .

My good old dad always told me to follow the money. It takes a billion dollars to elect a president and almost that much to the guy who lost. If that doesn't put out an odor you can't neglect, then I guess my farts don't stink either.

If I didn't care about this country, I would probably do a favor or two for a group of guys who put up a billion dollars to make me famous(and rich). I might even be inclined to let one or two of them be in my cabinet. Of course if you can't afford the billion, I will let my sweetheart give you a tour and a free nights stay at the old white mansion for a quality donation. IF I get a $100,000 for speaking at your university, I might be persuaded to get the IRS off your back in the deal providing you teach my agenda as the truth. Of Course I would never hold a grudge and sig my minions after you for not agreeing with me, why that would be treasonous and surely unethical. By the way, what does unethical mean? I never learned that term at Harvard. They told me it is a term for the little people and not to worry about it.

The meaning of the words liars and traitors need to be modified in Webster's big book, otherwise we would be jailing a lot of important people. Now we can't put billionaires in jail can we?

High School Civics, 1965 home work.
Oh yeah, the word unethical is the term the white house press secretary has to know forward and backward just in case there is an intelligent little person listening to his spew he can dispel any doubt and cast disparity on the opposition. Sure is good word though. I wrote it down once, but the dog ate my homework! That's the truth and I am sticking to it.

Hey guys stop griping and recognise you brought this on yourselves, you wanted to tell us all about free trade and level playing fields and where did this get you, the least cost option, which for the uninformed, and the great unwashed, means that people in underdeveloped countries get all the new refineries and to make all those great gadgets for the rest of us lazy loafers. You can blame your politicians all you want but you don't stop buying cheap shoddy goods from Asia.

Fact is; you did drink the Koolaid

having crude refined overseas does nothing to help the consumer cost of energy . In fact ,just the opposite .But even more important ;energy independence is a national security matter . And if we also end up being a net exporter of refined petroleum then it is also good for the trade balance. There is no down side to domestic refining ;unless you are an enviro-wacko.

tell it to the oil companies, Tom you see where rampant capitalism gets you, your government by international treaty cannot enforce domestic refining or give preference to it