Hello:

It's clear that a felon CAN'T own a gun. If he applies, he'll be turned down. Some people think the act of applying when you're NOT eligible, is its own separate crime. I don't understand WHY that is. Can you splain that to me?

excon

Simple for the very same reason that trying to rob a bank is a crime... even if you don't get a dime. Did you actually rob it if you go away with nothing? It doesn't matter the attempt to commit a crime shows intent. Its an action then and not a thought.

Falls under the same umbrealla of conspiracy to commit a crime.

Hello smoothy:

That response makes NO sense whatsoever.

excon

Hello smoothy:

That response makes NO sense whatsoever.

excon

Take a few more minutes and think about it some.

Hello again, smoothy:

Nahhhh.. I can spot nonsense right off the bat.

excon

I guess you don't believe in Conspiracy laws either... because that's exactly the same thing... only with two or more people,

Article 105 - NYS Penal Law - Conspiracy (http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article105.htm)

That's just New Yorks as an example. Planning to commit a crime is also a crime.

The laws vary by state excon. In some states a felon may possess an "antique" firearm as defined under federal law. In some states blackpowder/muzzleloaders are legal for felons to purchase.

I didn't know this was an issue so no I can't 'splain it to you. Perhaps you can expand on the reason you ask.

Hello again, J:

Thanks, but that doesn't answer my question. It's a federal law that I'm asking about.. My question stems from the right wings refusal to expand background checks. They ask, why should we DO that, when we don't prosecute those felons who applied and got turned down...

My question is WHY is simply applying a crime? The law on WHAT exactly constitutes a felony record, IS evolving. In MY particular case, I MAY or MAY not be eligible to own a firearm. My felony's are OLD. My civil rights have been restored, in terms of VOTING. I truly don't KNOW if I'm eligible to own a gun, or not. Filling out an application would BE the way I'd determine whether I was or not.

WHY, would doing THAT, be a crime?? It makes NO sense to me.

excon

Applying isn't a crime. The felon just gets turned down, he/she doesn't get arrested for simply filling out the Form 4473.

I've turned down a ton of felons who have come into the shop (when we owned one), but none were arrested unless a straw purchase was attempted.

Has Obama taken your guns yet?. or all your ammo?

Has Obama taken your guns yet?. or all your ammo?

Not yet, but it's pretty expensive now.

Hello again, J:

Thanks, but that doesn't answer my question. It's a federal law that I'm asking about.. My question stems from the right wings refusal to expand background checks. They ask, why should we DO that, when we don't prosecute those felons who applied and got turned down.

Again, you'll have to point out who is making this argument because I haven't seen it.

Hello again, J:

Applying isn't a crime. The felon just gets turned down, he/she doesn't get arrested for simply filling out the Form 4473.Well, THAT makes sense.. But, it doesn't jibe with right wing talking points.
South Carolina lawmakers (http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/284407-sc-lawmakers-tell-doj-to-prosecute-felons-fugitives-trying-to-buy-guns)asked the Department of Justice on Thursday why it wasn’t prosecuting more felons and fugitives who fail background checks while trying to purchase a gun.

Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) and Rep. Trey Gowdy (R-S.C.) said instead of Congress passing gun-control legislation that limits Second Amendment rights, U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder should be enforcing current laws that punish felons and fugitives trying to buy guns.Some people think applying IS a crime. I want to know WHY?

Excon

Hello again, J:
Well, THAT makes sense.. But, it doesn't jibe with right wing talking points. Some people think applying IS a crime. I wanna know WHY?

excon

I think your paper is distorting the issue, it's not about applying being illegal but lying when you apply or having a warrant out (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/lindsey-grahams-claim-that-no-fugitives-have-been-prosecuted-after-gun-background-checks/2013/04/03/5d20c1fa-9ca9-11e2-a941-a19bce7af755_blog.html) when applying and not being prosecuted.

Hello again, Steve:

That's a nice soft tender face you put on it. I ain't buying it for a minute. Smoothy BELIEVES what THEY believe. Let me clue you in on cop thinking... It goes like this...
If felons can't own guns, and a felon applies, he's LYINGI AM glad to hear that neither you or J believe a felon should be prosecuted for simply applying...

So, when the gun debate returns, can I count on you to debunk THAT argument when it rears its ugly head?? People like smoothy WILL absolutely keep it alive.

Excon

Okay, tell me why you, or anyone thinks a felon should be prosecuted for applying. The courts are tied up as it is. The jails are full. When the check comes back denied, just move on.

Now, not all felons are as upstanding as you. I've run into quite a few straw purchases. That's where it gets tricky. I even had a "friend" whose husband was a felon ask me if I would look the other way if she applied for the firearm.

Hello again, Steve:

That's a nice soft tender face you put on it. I ain't buying it for a minute. Smoothy BELIEVES what THEY believe. Lemme clue you in on cop thinking... It goes like this...I AM glad to hear that neither you or J believe a felon should be prosecuted for simply applying...

So, when the gun debate returns, can I count on you to debunk THAT argument when it rears its ugly head??? People like smoothy WILL absolutely keep it alive.

excon

I see no reason to validate that argument for a second, it is not a crime to apply that I know of.

No, it's not a crime to apply. All that will happen is that the applicant will get denied and given a form to appeal. Now, if there is an active warrant against the applicant, that's a whole 'nother ball game.

Hello again, J:
Okay, tell me why you, or anyone thinks a felon should be prosecuted for applying. I don't think they should. That's why I asked the question. But, plenty of right wingers think they should.

Excon

Well honey, them right wingers are wrong, and I'm a right winger.

If you are less than 100% honest on every question... its a felony.

FEDERAL FIREARMS LAWS (http://www.fedcoplaw.com/html/federal_firearms_laws.html)

d. False Statements - It is a felony violation to knowingly make a false statement or show a false identification to an FFL: § 922 (a)(6), 10 years or § 924 (a)(1)(A), 5 years.

Hello again, smoothy:

If you are less than 100% honest on every question... its a felony.Glad you came around.

Excon

Now that we have that settled...

Hello again, smoothy:
Glad you came around.

excon

Nope... people that know they would be rejected if they were honest usually lie on the form hoping it gets approved. Otherwise why would you even do it? That can land them in jail.

Hello again, Steve:

Now that we have that settled... Well, it's settled to a degree. Clearly we have a divide in the right wing over it. I DON'T agree that the article I linked you too overstated ANYTHING.. During the last debate THAT argument was brought up TIME and TIME again. In fact, I NEVER heard a right winger say what YOU'RE saying... They said, with NO equivocation, just like smoothy did, if you fill it out, and you're a felon, you BELONG in jail.

Excon

Hello again, Steve:
Well, it's settled to a degree. Clearly we have a divide in the right wing over it. I DON'T agree that the article I linked you too overstated ANYTHING.. During the last debate THAT argument was brought up TIME and TIME again. In fact, I NEVER heard a right winger say what YOU'RE saying... They said, with NO equivocation, just like smoothy did, if you fill it out, and you're a felon, you BELONG in jail.

excon

Like I said, I never heard that argument. Not once.

I'm in PA and guns are purchased using a PICS check through the state police. It is not against the law to apply for a gun if you are a felon. What is against the law is lying on the form.

A friend of mine is a gun dealer in town. He has turned many people away because the PICS flagged them or flat out denied them for one reason or another. He does not make the call, the state police running their background check tells him yes or no. Only one time has anyone ever been arrested for applying at his shop. A guy came in and applied for a gun, got flagged by the PICS check and within minutes the state police were there to get him as he was leaving. Mark had no idea what they got him for but something during that check notified the police about the guy.

But back on the subject... I don't think it should be illegal for a felon to fill out the form and apply. I do agree with penalties for lying on the form and that goes for everyone, not just felons.

just like smoothy did, if you fill it out, and you're a felon, you BELONG in jail.
That's not what Smoothy said. Don't twist his words. He said if they lied on the Form 4473.

Hello again, J:

Thanks, but that doesn't answer my question. It's a federal law that I'm asking about.. My question stems from the right wings refusal to expand background checks. They ask, why should we DO that, when we don't prosecute those felons who applied and got turned down...

My question is WHY is simply applying a crime? The law on WHAT exactly constitutes a felony record, IS evolving. In MY particular case, I MAY or MAY not be eligible to own a firearm. My felony's are OLD. My civil rights have been restored, in terms of VOTING. I truly don't KNOW if I'm eligible to own a gun, or not. Filling out an application would BE the way I'd determine whether I was or not.

WHY, would doing THAT, be a crime???? It makes NO sense to me.

excon

Lets me try to explain it to you. When your convicted and you are released it was explained what restrictions you were still under. So your made aware of what rights you have. And what were forfeit due to the crime committed.

Many States have a preauthorization process that you can enter into that can tell you if you can buy a gun or not. There is no crime committed by checking the system. On the other hand when you fill out the form at your local FFL for a firearm you are in fact already half way to possession of a weapon. You are in fact attempting to be checked out for a specific weapon.

Other then how the law applies. It is simaler to buying a car or house that you will pay for over time. You might choose to get preapproval for your loan and go out seeking what you can afford or you might go to a dealership or home sale and write a contract then apply.

If you are denied in the first scenario then you won't even go looking. Where in the 2nd one your test driving or looking over the product of your choice before application.

So as you can see you have already handled the gun in some way and exchanged funds for purchase before making the application vs just asking if you can or not without handleing anything.

If possession of a gun by a felon is illegal, then it seems reasonable that the attempt to get a gun is also illegal.

Interesting question Excon.
I would like to know if it is true that applying is illegal. I have mental health issues and hospitalizations related to it. I have always heard it is illegal for me to have a gun. I wonder if I can be charged with a crime for applying.
If people are saying felons should be charged then so should everyone else with issues that say it is illegal for them to own a gun. Wonder how full our jails would be?
NOTE: I live in Canada I am unsure if you have the same restrictions for people with mental health issues or not in the USA.

Falsifying your application is illegal, applying is not.

Falsifying your application is illegal, applying is not.

Wrong. It is illegal to apply for a firearm through a FFL if you are a felon and banned from owning such weapon.

Hello Ex,

Send your girlfriend into the pawn shop down the street.

Mission accomplished. That's just one of many easy ways to get a gun. How many do you want?

Hello Moderator, J:
That's not what Smoothy said. Don't twist his words.Can't you READ??

Excon

Hello Moderator, J:Can't you READ???

excon

Its obvious you can't.

Give it another try...



Nope....people that know they would be rejected if they were honest usually lie on the form hoping it gets approved. Otherwise why would you even do it? That can land them in jail.

Give false information on that form and you find yourself a guest of the Grey Bar Hotel for a few years and with another Felony conviction.



If you are less than 100% honest on every question.....its a felony.

FEDERAL FIREARMS LAWS (http://www.fedcoplaw.com/html/federal_firearms_laws.html)

d. False Statements - It is a felony violation to knowingly make a false statement or show a false identification to an FFL: § 922 (a)(6), 10 years or § 924 (a)(1)(A), 5 years.

Hello again,

So, it ISN'T settled then.. Didn't think so.

excon

Hello again, smoothy:

Simple for the very same reason that trying to rob a bank is a crime.. Nuff said. You'll NEVER win a battle of words with me.

Excon

Wrong. It is illegal to apply for a firearm through a FFL if you are a felon and banned from owning such weapon.

Well, there you go.

Hello Ex,

Send your gf into the pawn shop down the street.

Mission accomplished. That's just one of many easy ways to get a gun. How many do you want?

So you are suggesting a straw purchase? What is the punishment for that now? I can't remember... 10 years and $25,000?

Hello Moderator, J:Can't you READ???

excon

I can read perfectly fine. I comprehend well too. I just don't twist words to my liking.

I just don't twist words to my liking.Steve does it every day in Current Events, better keep an eye on him.

I know he does NK. He just likes to argue.

Steve does it every day in Current Events, better keep an eye on him.

Wow, I'm not even in on the discussion and you're hating on me? What a pathetic jerk.

Damn it there's no "Like" button. :)

What a pathetic jerk.Bless you son.

Bless you son.

You are a glutton for punishment aren't you?

Exxon is also Steve. Guess I got you both mixed up. My bad.

Hello again, smoothy:
Nuff said. You'll NEVER win a battle of words with me.

excon

Why don't you give it a try at a few places and let us know what happens... Unless of course you aren't so sure of your interpretation.

Hello again, smoothy:

Unless of course you aren't so sure of your interpretation.This is a PERFECT example of your INABILITY to READ... I didn't lay out an interpretation. I asked a question.

Go argue with somebody on the plants page. Maybe you can fool them.

Excon

Hello again, smoothy:
This is a PERFECT example of your INABILITY to READ... I didn't lay out an interpretation. I asked a question.

Go argue with somebody on the plants page. Maybe you can fool them.

excon

You are ranting again...


Why don't you give it a try at a few places and let us know what happens.....Unless of course you aren't so sure of your interpretation.


I'm guessing you aren't very sure of your position. Or you would give it a try.

Hello again, smoothy:

I'm guessing you aren't very sure of your position.So, you couldn't even understand the post above yours? Let me say again, and for the last time, I don't HAVE a position. I HAD a question.

But, I'm tired of arguing with the wall. I'm DONE!

Excon

So you are suggesting a straw purchase? What is the punishment for that now? I can't remember..... 10 years and $25,000?

I have suggested nothing, I am telling you this goes on all over the country. Its reality. Another reality is people go to the pawn shop all the time, to trade guns for money, or to get a gun for money. Trade shows too.

Now you can ignore the fact there are ways to get what you want in this country by hook or crook, but that doesn't change the fact its happening. 2 million felons in jail that get out in sprinkles and you think they are rehabbed and ready to obey the law? Come on, a guys got to eat and defend himself in the real world.

And you worry about a guy being caught lying on an application. I know what the law says and it only applies to law abiding citizens. An excon who wants a gun has other options beside your way and we know them and crazy people get what they want and by the time the law catches up to them, they have already done what they wanted to do.

To answer your question ex, hell yeah they will put you in jail for trying to buy a gun, when they catch you.

No law stops people from doing stuff, just punishes you after you have done bad stuff.

Hello again, smoothy:
So, you couldn't even understand the post above yours?? Lemme say again, and for the last time, I don't HAVE a position. I HAD a question.

But, I'm tired of arguing with the wall. I'm DONE!

excon

Convicted felon charged with trying to buy weapon at Bristol Twp. gun store - phillyburbs.com: Bensalem (http://www.phillyburbs.com/my_town/bensalem/convicted-felon-charged-with-trying-to-buy-weapon-at-bristol/article_34d6314f-bf2a-5f83-8c70-45c49b79ecd0.html)


Your argument doesn't hold water... here is one example of someone that went to jail for trying.

And another..

http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/local/crime/felon-gets-months-for-attempted-illegal-buy-at-gun-show/article_a6f87688-31d2-11e3-ac7d-001a4bcf6878.html

And another..

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2013/aug/17/deputies-felon-attempted-buy-gun-denied-record/

Hurray, they got one.

Hello again, wall

Your argument doesn't hold water... here is one example of someone that went to jail for trying.Once more, I HAVE no argument. I HAD a question.

Go be stupid on the relationship page. I'm tired of it here.

Excon

Hello again, wall
Once more, I HAVE no argument. I HAD a question.

Go be stupid on the relationship page. I'm tired of it here.

excon

Still ranting?. if you are that certain that I and the others are worng... go make applications in several gun stores...

I showed three examples of felons that actually WERE arrested just for attempting to buy a gun... in different states.

I showed three examples of felons that actually WERE arrested just for attempting to buy a gun.Yea but not for simply filling an application:


... tried to persuade numerous federally licensed firearms dealers to sell him a gun privately and without a background check


tried to buy a gun from two different firearms dealers but denied his felony record on one of the applications... faces a felony charge of providing false information to purchase a weapon or firearm.

Yea but not for simply filling an application:

Can't YOU read either... they applied... when their checks were done flagging them as felons they were arrested.

They applied to BUY a gun.. filling out the form... they never actually GOT the gun.

And those where three different people... the first three I came across... no cherry picking.

Exactly WHAT purpose would a felon have for filling out the form? Except to commit what ammounts to a crime.

Some Felons are willing to take that chance... and go back to the big house... I don't think excon wants to do that. Because I think he's smarter than those others.

Yea, I didn't think you'd understand.

Yea, I didn't think you'd understand.

Its obvious to everyone you don't. But then you are from a country that really has no gun rights to speak of.

But then you are from a country that really has no gun rights to speak of.Your ignorance knows no bounds.

" It's clear that a felon CAN'T own a gun. If he applies, he'll be turned down. Some people think the act of applying when you're NOT eligible, is its own separate crime. I don't understand WHY that is. Can you splain that to me?"

You want us to explain why some think applying is a crime?
Kind of tough assignment, Ex. Expaining why others think what they think.

Here is Connecticut's application to be completed by the potential buyer and the seller's agent. I picked CT's form because it was the easiest to find and has a recent revised date:
http://www.ct.gov/despp/lib/despp/slfu/firearms/dps-67-c.pdf

But CT has I think one of the most stringent laws in the nation now, although MD just enacted their new law Oct. 1 and it requires fingerprinting before purchase of a handgun.

If you review the CT form you will see that there are numerous questions about previous convictions. The applicant acknowledges that providing false information is a felony very clearly.
The seller's agent is advised that if the applicant has answered yes to certain questions on the form that the applicant MAY be prohibited from purchasing the weapon.
It appears to me that if the applicant answers all the questions on the form accurately and honestly, he/she will not be violating CT's law. The use of the words MAY BE PROHIBITED implies that it is not clear that everyone who has been convicted of the crimes identified on the form, can't buy a gun.
It also appears to me that "some people" are wrong when they think that applying (at least in CT) when you think you MAY NOT BE ELIGIBLE, is a crime.
Perhaps CT takes into consideration that someone may have been convicted and later exonerated and relies on the official background check to pick that up- don't know- but if merely checking yes in a box disqualified the applicant the seller's agent would be advised to not submit the form. Instead the agent is advised that the purchase MAY be denied.
MD had so many people wanting to buy guns before the new law went into effect that the state police (MSP) had to farm out review of applications to clerks in other state employee divisions such as highways and health dept.
Dealers were selling and releasing weapons without completion of the background checks as they are allowed to do if they don't get an answer with x days. MSP went out and retrieved some of those weapons when they realized what had happened as the background check was finally completed.
Every state is different. That's about the only blanket true statement that can be made about the USA.

Your ignorance knows no bounds.

So what else is new

Wasn't that the glitch in the background check talks? Some states are making gun buying easier, and some don't cooperate with other states in a national background check. In most cases, if you take a car ride, you can buy a gun, and take it home. A strict law doesn't matter if the next state or the next one over can sell a gun like candy.

Where do you think all those guns in Chicago come from? HINT: It ain't Chicago.

I think they are made in the USA, just a thought

Wasn't that the glitch in the background check talks? Some states are making gun buying easier, and some don't cooperate with other states in a national background check. In most cases, if you take a car ride, you can buy a gun, and take it home. A strict law doesn't matter if the next state or the next one over can sell a gun like candy.

Where do you think all those guns in Chicago come from? HINT: It ain't Chicago.

Do you have proof of this as it is my experience that it is not as easy as candy. That is just something that libs like to throw out there. Other then committing an illegal act where are you saying its so easy to cross state lines to buy a weapon ?

where are you saying its so easy to cross state lines to buy a weapon ?
Chicago into Indiana, right around the curve of the lake. For illegal-in-Illinois fireworks too.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-02-17/news/ct-met-guns-gangs-20130217_1_levaine-tanksley-gun-laws-gun-trafficker

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/15635712-418/illinois-and-indiana-big-source-of-guns-used-in-chicago-crimes-police-find.html

Chicago into Indiana, right around the curve of the lake. For illegal-in-Illinois fireworks too.

Charges expose gun pipeline from Indiana to Chicago's violence-plagued neighborhoods - Chicago Tribune (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-02-17/news/ct-met-guns-gangs-20130217_1_levaine-tanksley-gun-laws-gun-trafficker)

Illinois, Indiana big source of guns used in Chicago crimes, say cops - Chicago Sun-Times (http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/15635712-418/illinois-and-indiana-big-source-of-guns-used-in-chicago-crimes-police-find.html)

Neither of the articles you posted show where legal purchaes were made and retained.