Arrested 3 times for fraud. 1st time 3 charges under 5000 second time 3 more charges under 5000 and 1 charge defrauding the public over 5000. Third time 4 more charges under 5000. Then a fourth time charged with obtaining credit through false pretense and possessing proceeds of crime both exceeding 5000.. These charges all happened about a month apart. All except the last 2 were for taking deposits and not supplying the products or service. The last 2 were for borrowing money on a promissory note and not using it for what it was borrowed for. I have never been charged before. What kind of sentence should I expect. I will not plead nor can I make restitution. Could I get probation or will I go to jail. I live in canada.

Count on Jail... its NOT an insignificant amount. And it wasn't a single event or charge.

Pay them back before the trial? Can I make small payments?

Pay them back before the trial? Can I make small payments?

Paying it back in full before then will put you in the best position when you end up in court.(even if you have to borrow from family).. anything less than that is really nothing more than an empty promise... because the court can FORCE you to do it as part of any sentence they give.

Don't expect to walk away without punishment... but that will count in your favor.

It would be way different if it was only a single event/charge.

At court, when they sentence you to jail, you will be ordered to pay them back, and latter for probation (parole) you will be required to be making payments.

If you can pay them all back in full before court, then maybe a good attorney may get your probation.

But you really, really need to consider a plea deal, if they can get you under 3 years in prison, take it.

At court, when they sentence you to jail, you will be ordered to pay them back, and latter for probation (parole) you will be required to be making payments.

If you can pay them all back in full before court, then maybe a good attorney may get your probation.

But you really, really need to consider a plea deal, if they can get you under 3 years in prison, take it.

I don't have the money to pay them before court and am not allowed contact with any of them. As a first offense I thought I might not get jail time

You have multiple cases worth thousands in theft. There is no way you aren't getting a jail sentence. People get jail time for a couple of hundred dollars with just one case. A first offense is not a 'get out of jail' card.

Aside from jail; you'll be placed under probation (you'll have to pay a monthly probation fee) for a couple of years and you'll still be expected to make restitution payments.

As Chuck suggested, you'll really need to consider any plea deal you might be offered.

you have multiple cases worth thousands in theft. there is no way you aren't getting a jail sentence. people get jail time for a couple of hundred dollars with just one case. a first offense is not a 'get out of jail' card.

aside from jail; you'll be placed under probation (you'll have to pay a monthly probation fee) for a couple of years and you'll still be expected to make restitution payments.

as Chuck suggested, you'll really need to consider any plea deal you might be offered.
I didn't mean for it to happen. Times are tough and I planned on doing everything but didn't have the money to do it. Since I didn't mean for any of it to happen I didn't want to plea to something I didn't mean at all. I was hoping the courts would be understanding and no prior record I was hoping to catch a break. Especially with no priors.

If you want any sort of chance of avoiding jail, you need to get a lawyer. If you're in Ontario, I think there is a free service that will provide you one, if you qualify. Avoiding jail seems very unlikely though.

You also need to stop with the "times are tough and i didn't mean to do it" excuses. It won't do you any favors in court. They hear it every day. It'll go a lot better if you take responsibility for your actions. You have multiple cases against you and the "i didn't mean to do it" excuse isn't going to work, since you have a habit of stealing.

I'm definitely not judging you, but everyone gave you great advice here. Try your hardest to find a lawyer, maybe you can work out a payment plan with them.

Hello t:

Whether you meant to do it or not, ISN'T the issue.. You DID it, and if you don't own up to it, you WILL go to jail.. Cooperating with these people is the ONLY way you will avoid jail, IF you can - and I believe you can.

excon

Pay them back before the trial? Can I make small payments?

You first said you would not make restitution. Which is it?

Your attitude about no priors and hard times doesn't give me much hope for you in regards to leniency.
Keeping your mouth shut except to apologize to the court and all harmed parties is your best option.
What did you do, take deposits on the same non-existent car 10 times?

I don't have the money to pay them before court and am not allowed contact with any of them. ...

The no-contact order is not a problem with respect to pay-back. Your attorney or the court could arrange that.

I have to apply for legal aid to get a lawyer but I will do that. Thanks for your help.I appreciate all the advice I was just hoping there was a way I would not have to serve time in jail


You first said you would not make restitution. Which is it?

Your attitude about no priors and hard times doesn't give me much hope for you in regards to leniency.
Keeping your mouth shut except to apologize to the court and all harmed parties is your best option.
What did you do, take deposits on the same non-existent car 10 times?
I said I would not plead I wanted to go to trial,I didn't say I would not pay restitution what I meant is I cannot pay restitution right now. I'm barely making enough to survive

You really want to plea, if the evidence against you is sound. The court wants you to plea, it is cheaper on them, clears their cases. On average you will get about 2/3 of the sentence if you plea, over going to court. In fact the DA will try to be sure that happens, to help push future deals. Your attorney will know the normal sentences for the crimes, so he will know if the deal is good or not.

Thanks for the advice. I will speak to a lawyer for sure. Is there any chance that a plea can include reducing the higher ones to under 5000 to get a lesser sentence overall? I guess if I am facing time I would hope to get months as opposed to years. The reason I was going to take my chances at a trial was I thought they had to prove Intent o my part which from what I read was difficult for the courts to do.

The reason I was going to take my chances at a trial was I thought they had to prove Intent o my part which from what I read was difficult for the courts to do.

Intent? The fact that you committed the crimes multiple times within a short span of time would win their case.

intent? the fact that you committed the crimes multiple times within a short span of time would win their case.

Intent is normally implied and not hard to prove. If it had happened once, and your defense it was a mistake, But intent is a element of the crime, but is proved by the way it is done.

Had it happenend once, your claim is this is civil issue, and that you were going to give the car but was not able to get it. If you advertised a car to sell, that you did not own, that is intent itself.

Hello t:

You didn't admit to doing the crime here. Hopefully, you didn't admit it to the cops.. The fact that you were arrested numerous times isn't evidence of ANYTHING.. So, NOBODY knows what evidence they have. If you have the MONEY, you probably can win. The state wins most times because defendants can't mount a defense... But, a GOOD lawyer can whip most prosecutors any day of the week. But, you're broke. It's hard to win when you're broke. You're not going to get one of those lawyers.

excon

Hello t:

You didn't admit to doing the crime here. Hopefully, you didn't admit itit to the cops.. The fact that you were arrested numerous times isn't evidence of ANYTHING.. So, NOBODY knows what evidence they have. If you have the MONEY, you probably can win. The state wins most times because defendants can't mount a defense... But, a GOOD lawyer can whip most prosecutors any day of the week. But, you're broke. It's hard to win when you're broke. You're not gonna get one of those lawyers.

excon
No I did not admit to doing the crime here all I stated was what I was being charged with and why thecharged me with it.the only evidence I know they have is signed contracts and proof I did not fulfill those contracts. As far is admitting anything to the police I simply discussed the reason I could not complete those jobs was because I ran out of money to do so otherwise I would have.

During a civil trial, if information on a criminal act is made known during testimony will the judge alert the prosecutor of the criminal act or does he keep the information he has learned to himself?

During testimony with who present? How was it given to the judge without the prosecutor knowing? A conviction? As an adult? Had your lawyer had a pre-trial meeting with the judge about it? What does your lawyer say?

Asking hypotheticals doesn't really help much.

During testimony with who present? How was it given to the judge without the prosecutor knowing? A conviction? As an adult? Had your lawyer had a pre-trial meeting with the judge about it? What does your lawyer say?

Asking hypotheticals doesn't really help much.

It was a civil trial not a criminal one. The plaintiff had a vehicle taken from them by the defendant by means of illegally transferring it out of their name, then signing it over to a third party for collateral on monies borrowed. The third party transferred it to their name and the plaintiff is fighting to get it back as they were not aware it happened at all. During the trial the third party stated that he lent the money to the defendant because he was being threatened violent bodily harm if he didn't have the money paid by the end of that day. He admitted he later believed that the defendant did nothing but lie to him for months. Will the judge make the prosecution aware of the fraud and or the threats, or will he just deal with who is entitled to the vehicle? Since is was just civil court?

I took the advice given from everyone on here and got a legal aide lawyer, in the mean time the police called me back to the station to inform me they are lumping all 9 charges under 5000 and the obtaining credit over into the defrauding the public over 5000 charge. This means I now have only 2 charges? One of defrauding the public over 5000 and the possessing proceeds of crime over 5000. Is this a good thing or will it make no difference at all? I have decided also to try to take a plea.

Off hand it doesn't sound like something I'd be happy about, putting you in a higher felony category (?), but I don't know Canadian law, nor what the prosecutor's aim is here. You can count on it not being in your best interest unless your lawyer is the one who requested the change, and you should be on the phone with your lawyer. In any case you shouldn't be saying a peep to the offense.

the police called me back to the station to inform me they are lumping all 9 charges under 5000 and the obtaining credit over into the defrauding the public over 5000 charge.

I don't know if Canada does things differently or you just don't understand what happened. But it's the prosecutor's office that determines what charges to file and prosecute for. This is not something usually done by the police. Once the police turn a case over to the prosecutor, they are usually no longer involved (except as witnesses) or if the prosecutor needs more evidence.

P.S. and please don't keep creating multiple threads over the same issue. Any follow-up should be added to this thread.

At court, when they sentence you to jail, you will be ordered to pay them back, and latter for probation (parole) you will be required to be making payments.

If you can pay them all back in full before court, then maybe a good attorney may get your probation.

But you really, really need to consider a plea deal, if they can get you under 3 years in prison, take it.

Chuck,

I would appreciate your opinion on this,

I took the advice given from everyone on here and got a legal aide lawyer, in the mean time the police called me back to the station to inform me they are lumping all 9 charges under 5000 and the obtaining credit over into the defrauding the public over 5000 charge. This means I now have only 2 charges? One of defrauding the public over 5000 and the possessing proceeds of crime over 5000. Is this a good thing or will it make no difference at all? I have decided also to try to take a plea

First, no the civil judge will not inform the prosecutor about what was said. Most of what is said in civil courts are lies or some mistruth, so first the judge has to decide if he even believes it.

Now the person who said this, can go file charges if they want.

**NO, you would have been much better off with several small misdemeanor charges than a felony. A felony normally does not fall under any first offender program, there is a much higher chance of prison with these charges than with several smaller charges

First, no the civil judge will not inform the prosecutor about what was said. Most of what is said in civil courts are lies or some mistruth, so first the judge has to decide if he even believes it.

Now the person who said this, can go file charges if they want.

**NO, you would have been much better off with several small misdemeanor charges than a felony. A felony normally does not fall under any first offender program, there is a much higher chance of prison with these charges than with several smaller charges

Thanks for your input, all of you!