I live in PA. I purchased a car and paid 4000.00 in cash. I gave the dealer a post dated check for 1500.00 to satisfy the cost of the car. The verbal agreement was 5500.00 all in (out the door) taxes/title/registration fees etc...

I did not receive any confirmation/receipt that the dealer cashed the check - even though I know he did via bank statements.

It is now 2.5 months later and the dealer just called saying I 'owe' him 400.00 for the taxes! I know the taxes were paid, the receipt came in the mail with the registration. The dealer told me that the title would come in the mail.

The paperwork I have from the dealer is all sub-standard. I paid 'in full' in cash with no financing, yet at the bottom of the paper it states a payment plan of 24 months at 85.00 a month.?

The dealer told me he was going to put a lien on the car if I don't pay the 400.00. I called Penndot and they told me that a lien is already ON the car.

In summary: I live in PA, bought a car and paid 5500.00 in 'cash' to include ALL taxes/fees, verbally. The paperwork makes absolute NO sense in any way. Never received a receipt stating he cashed the check and that my balance is $0. Now dealer put a lien on the car (that I paid for) and won't give me the title.

If anyone could offer ANY assistance/advice I would be GREATLY appreciative.

Thank you!

Verbal agreement means nothing, they are only woirth the paper they are written on... its the one that's in writing that carries the weight as it can be proved.

Read your paperwork again. Make certain what you think is in it... is actually in it. Don't assume.

They were able to prove they were owed that money to get the lien. Make sure what you think was in that paperwork is actually in the paperwork.

Did you read all of it before you signed it? A common mistake is people don't always do it when they should.

Your last resort would be contacting Penndot... explain to them and see what they tell you. I know how PA does this stuff... and while in one way it makes it easier for you.. than many other states, if there is a problem it is more of a pain... unless you live near Harrisburg and can visit their main office. Yes I've taken a few hours to drive there more than once.

Why... WHY did you walk out of there for that kind of money with "substandard" paper work and financing terms on the bottom? That is unreal. Did you read it before you signed it? I make all my customers read and understand before they sign... you should never have signed that paperwork without having EVERYTHING you paid for completely outlined. In fact, it's law in PA that the Bill Of Sale has to have every piece of information on it outlined. Purchase price, trade in, cash, check, discounts, final price, amount paid, amount owed... things like that.

Have you tried calling the dealer and talking to him and asking why all of this is happening and what he plans on doing about it?

Thank you for your comments!
Unfortunately this dealer (who is the owner of the small car lot) used to be my husbands friend from several years ago (so my husband was dumb and trusted him). The dealer told my husband that he wrote the paperwork up this way because we were dividing the payments. (I was not present during the purchase - I read everything... I should have known better!) He said that he HAD to write it up this way because we didn't pay totally in full that day.

Dealer said that because we paid 4000 cash on the date we took the car - we post dated a check that same day for 1500.00. Dealer said that after he cashed the check the title would be sent in the mail.

I called Penndot and the rep. asked me about one of the documents I have... there is a lien fee of $5.00. She told me that this was probably the plan from the beginning because the lien fee should have said $0.00 (who knew? ) The dealer putting a lien fee on the paperwork ensures that HE will get the title sent to him instead of directly to us (who paid for everything). The dealer wants paid 'back' for the tax portion.

Dealer said that 'no matter what' he will win in court because he is only asking for the taxes on the car to be paid back to him. (whatever that means)

I told the dealer on the phone last night that I was going to contact my attorney to be sure that he has copies of ALL of the paperwork that we got from the dealership... The dealer got immediately angry and told me that he was going to involve HIS attorney as well. THEN he told me that "I would not find one of the papers because he never gave it to us!" Some "you owe we owe" paper is flying around his office with supposedly my husbands signature stating that we owe the taxes. We were never given this paper. My husband signed a you owe we owe, but he was 100% certain that it said $0.00 (because he knew we were paying all in). It is my belief that the dealer kept the paper and added a dollar amount after the fact (via type writer). I am completely baffled and do not know what to do considering there IS a lien on the vehicle. I am concerned because I do not want it towed away from my residence.

To Odinn7 - I would like to point out that on the Bill of Sale (what I am assuming is the bill of sale - says 'sold to' then my husbands name) it says nothing about final price, amount paid... in fact there is no mention anywhere on this document about the $1500.00 post dated check.

My attorney's fee is over $300 an hour, so I don't know if I should even really involve him, but I DO know that nothing is on the 'up and up' in regards to this sale... The amount we owe is $390 to be exact (what the dealer is claiming)... I do not want to pay it simply because the tax has already been paid, I have the receipt as proof - it is the dealer wanted 'paid back'... and he says he has the 'you owe we owe' document that 'proves' it... which we never received a copy of, said the dealer himself.

Sorry this is so long - I am just completely stupified by all of this. We have never purchased a vehicle and went through something like this. We have always financed. Thanks again for your comments!

*we were also denied a carfax twice. He kept saying he would 'get it to us' but never did... just the cherry on the whip cream.

He isn't required to give you a carfax... if a dealer does... its as a courtesy... you get it on your own... just pay your fee and you can run almost as many vin numbers as you want for that period.

How did you pay the taxes... since you pay the dealer.. and the dealer pays the tax to the state. Or are you confusing taxes with title and registration fees?

For $390 dollars... you could be done with the problem... he's got a lien.. the lien makes you get full coverage insurance rather than liability... your lawyers fees would be far higher... and as long as that lien is there... they could reposessit for not having paid in full.


I know it sounds contrary... but he has the upper hand... and if $390 gets you free and clear of him... isn't it worth it?

The funny thing is... with all the crazy regulations PA makes you go through to become a used car dealer and all the ways they can nail you for doing things incorrectly... they really have no direct place to complain about poor, dirty, or fraudulent dealers.

I found this page and the majority of it deals with Identity Theft but there are numbers on it where you can get a good start by calling and probably finding out who you really need to talk to.

PennDOT Driver and Vehicle Services - Reporting Fraud (http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/identity_theft/reporting_fraud.shtml)

Now, with that said, be sure that your complaints are valid and that you understand completely what you are complaining about. I know this sounds stupid but trust me, I have been dealing with Penn-DOT and DMV for a year now as a dealer and they don't want to hear crap from you unless you know exactly what you're saying. They are some very rude people down in that office... but I also have to admit, I have found some truly great and helpful ones now and then. Just be sure you read everything over and have notes about what you're going to say if you call to file a complaint... and be sure you can back it up. They take this dealer thing VERY seriously... this is why it is such a difficult and costly process to get a license.

I would call the dealer one last time though to see if there may be some misunderstanding and maybe they can work it out. If they are unwilling to help you, then I would make the call and see what you can get out of that.

And really... next time... PLEASE... read the paperwork and make sure everything is outlined specifically as to what the deal is. It will protect you.

Good Luck


PS- Next time, come see me to buy a car! LOL!

I wrote my response and posted it and then I saw you had already responded...

ALL paperwork in a car sale through a PA dealer MUST also be given to the buyer. BOS, You Owe We Owe (If used), Odometer Disclosure, Buyers Guide... if he did not give you these things, he is in violation. The BOS must be fully completed as well. If he is waving around the You Owe paperwork but you never got it, then he is in violation for simply not giving it to you. He is also in violation for giving you an incomplete BOS that didn't list the terms and outline things correctly. If you get an attorney on this, he will likely realize he could possibly lose here. Though, I am not saying the dealer would lose for sure. Probably, but nothing is definite.

The question becomes... do you just eat it and pay the taxes again and just move on or do you really push it to fight this? Me? I would probably pay it and file a complaint against him once I got the title... and then bad mouth him and his practices to anyone that will listen.



Edit- Oh, and CARFAX... eh, it's not as wonderful as everyone thinks. It's not completely accurate unless every place actually reports to CARFAX (and many don't). Also, as already mentioned, he is not required to give you one. I don't offer them unless someone actually asks. The ads make it look like you are an underhanded and sleazy dealer if you don't offer one but that is not always the case. Many of us simply don't believe in the validity of them and don't like that the CARFAX company uses those kinds of ads to almost force us to use them.

I am not trying to get the car taken away, lol. I know I am going to have to pay him. I DO know that the taxes were paid because the receipt was sent to my address stating TAXES. Also - when I told him this on the phone he confirmed that he DID pay the taxes, we just have to 'pay him back' according to this "we owe you owe" paperwork.

My husband just got home and gave me this juicy nugget of info : Apparently the bill was written up like this: Total cost of the car 5500.00 THEN he added in the taxes, title and tag fees. He told my husband that he would "take care of the taxes/title and fees" because the state won't allow him to add them into the cost of the car (5500). My husband agreed to this.

I am pretty sure I am going to pay off this guy and report him to the bureau of consumer affairs, the BBB, and I am going to write a letter to the state atty. General in regards to this matter.

I could have went into WAY more detail about the things this dealer has said / what we have issues with. I am 99% sure he pulled a bait and switch in the beginning as well, lol.

I guess my main question at this point is - do I have any kind of leg to stand on considering the $1500.00 is listed NO WHERE on the bill of sale? No receipt was sent, no confirmation, nothing.

Thank you Odinn for the tips on dealing with Penndot! I am a stay at home mother (for now!) and have nothing but time... I will continue to pursue this until SOMETHING is done.

Wow! Odinn I responded before I knew you re-responded and am genuinely thankful for your advice.

"ALL paperwork in a car sale through a PA dealer MUST also be given to the buyer. BOS, You Owe We Owe (If used), Odometer Disclosure, Buyers Guide....if he did not give you these things, he is in violation. The BOS must be fully completed as well. If he is waving around the You Owe paperwork but you never got it, then he is in violation for simply not giving it to you. He is also in violation for giving you an incomplete BOS that didn't list the terms and outline things correctly......"

I wish I would have recorded the cell phone call last night where he was giggling when he told us that "we wont find the paper b/c he never gave it to us!" almost as a 'ha ha... I got you now!"

I think I will do what seems to be 'best option' pay him now, get the title in hand, then file my complaints. I am def. going to file them because he did the Same thing to my brother in law several years ago at another lot his family owns. (brother in law thought the deal was done, then he was told he had to 'pay back' the taxes) - wish I would have known THAT before I went there, haha... I was told by my father in law last night when I was explaining the situation to him.

Again, thanks to ALL who have taken their time to give me advice!

Leg to stand on regarding the $1500? I don't think so. You know it was cashed, your bank statement shows it. Keep that just in case.

For the other things... that changes things a bit. He is right that he cannot include the cost of tags and fees in the cost of the car so this is where your husband goofed by not having it in writing that it was part of the deal or was to be paid or whatever. This should have been in writing and honestly, most Issuing Dealers collect the sales tax at the time of the deal... why wouldn't they? It would only make sense.

Still... the documents and lack of documents that you received... that is what I would use in a complaint if you go that far. He can't claim to have one without having given it to you as well. He also can't fill them out as he did.

Pay him, get the title... go from there.