Twenty years ago today, the constitutional republic of the United States of America was dealt a mortal wound. American tanks were used in the burning of a church and the killing of 76 men, women, and children ON AMERICAN SOIL!

The Left today blames Wayne LaPierre and the Koch brothers for the decline of America. The Right blames George Soros and Harry Reid. Neither seems to realize that the fascists have already taken over D.C. Janet Reno killed my country, along with these churchgoers.

Chanel Andrade, 1, American
Jennifer Andrade, 19, American
Katherine Andrade, 24, American
George Bennett, 35, British
Susan Benta, 31, British
Mary Jean Borst, 49, American
Pablo Cohen, 38, Israeli
Abedowalo Davies, 30, British
Shari Doyle, 18, American
Beverly Elliot, 30, British
Doris Fagan, 51, British
Yvette Fagan, 32, British
Lisa Marie Farris, 24, American
Raymond Friesen, 76, Canadian
Sandra Hardial, 27, British
Diana Henry, 28, British
Paulina Henry, 24, British
Phillip Henry, 22, British
Stephen Henry, 26, British
Vanessa Henry, 19, British
Zilla Henry, 55, British
Novellette Hipsman, 36, Canadian
Floyd Houtman, 61, American
Sherri Jewell, 43, American
David M. Jones, 38, American
Bobbie Lane Koresh, 2, American
Cyrus Koresh, 8, American
David Koresh, 33, American
Rachel Koresh, 24, American
Star Koresh, 6, American
Jeffery Little, 32, American
Nicole Gent Little, 24, Australian, pregnant
Dayland Lord Gent, 3, Australian[73]
Paiges Gent,[74] 1, American
Livingston Malcolm, 26, British
Anita Martin, 18, American
Diane Martin, 41, British
Lisa Martin, 13, American
Sheila Martin, Jr. 15, American
Wayne Martin, Jr. 20, American
Wayne Martin, Sr. 42, American
Abigail Martinez, 11, American
Audrey Martinez, 13, American
Crystal Martinez, 3, American
Isaiah Martinez, 4, American
Joseph Martinez, 8, American
Julliete Martinez, 30, American
John-Mark McBean, 27, British
Bernadette Monbelly, 31, British
Melissa Morrison, 6, British
Rosemary Morrison, 29, British
Sonia Murray, 29, American
Theresa Nobrega, 48, British
James Riddle, 32, American
Rebecca Saipaia, 24, Filipino[75]
Judy Schneider, 41, American
Steve Schneider, 43, American
Mayanah Schneider, 2, American
Clifford Sellors, 33, British
Scott Kojiro Sonobe, 35, American
Floracita Sonobe, 34, Filipino
Aisha Gyrfas Summers, 17, Australian, pregnant
Gregory Summers, 28, American
Startle Summers, 1, American
Hollywood Sylvia, 1, American
Lorraine Sylvia, 40, American
Rachel Sylvia, 12, American
Chica Jones, 2, American
Michelle Jones Thibodeau, 18, American
Serenity Jones, 4, American
Little One Jones, 2, American
Margarida Vaega, 47, New Zealander
Neal Vaega, 38, New Zealander
Mark H. Wendell, 40, American

Argue over the scraps all you want, the America I was taught to revere is dead.

Wow 20 years already?

And Janet Reno was so hard on the eyes.

168 killed on American soil in Oklahoma City, April19th,1995.

Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were mass murderers who took out their anger about Waco on innocents . What is Reno's; General Wesley Clark's(then commander of the Cavalry Division of the US Army's III Corps),Gen. Peter J. Schoomaker's(then head of Special Forces at Fort Bragg) and Bill Clintoon's(who signed a waiver of the Posse Comitatus Act) ;and Vince Foster (Clintoon's point man on the operation) excuse ?

And David Koresh was the second coming of Christ. I know the government should have left this nut alone. Lets leave all the loons alone, and let 'em drink their Kool-Aid in peace. Or whatever else they come up with.

So you are not distrurbs about American military action on American soil against American citizens ? Last week it was not the Army going after terrorists like the Waco assault ,where Delta Force and Army tanks and incendiary grenades were used against men women and children . The Posse Comitatus Act was good enough for the country until the Clintoons .
Against terrorists who had killed 3 and wounded over 200 ,a man hunt and cordon contained them . They were going nowhere. But the Clintoons had to flush out the Branch Davidians... why ? Where were they going ?

Last week it was not the Army going after terroristsMaybe if there were 80 of them. How many terrorists were there?

There were not 80 terrorists there . There were 76 victims . Most of the victims women and children.

Then who were all those people firing at law enforcement?
Don't get me wrong, I think it's terrible what happened there but it isn't so one-sided. Religious wackos are dangerous for all weak-minded people.

Again ; the only other time the military was used on American soil to conduct military actions against fellow Americans was in the immediate aftermath of the Civil War. Posse Comitatus Act went into effect in 1878... specifically to outlaw the use of federal troops for civilian law enforcement .It survived far worse than a compound of contained religious wackos . We have armed gangs roaming our cities and the military isn't used. But against a bunch of holed up religious nuts it was OK to burn them out ?

The fire that the davidians started themselves because their leader told them they were part of a Biblical "end-of-times"?

They didn't start the fire. The troops used incendiary tear gas .

That is still under debate. Koresh seemingly had no qualms about mass suicide.

Yeah the Clinoonistas still insist they didn't start the fire. They also said they raided the place for illegal guns and illegal drugs... none of which were found on the compound.

Don't even know who/what Clinoonistas are. Oh well.

'Children of Waco' Speak Out - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=131982&page=1#.UXbdGWoo6M8)

Yeah this guy was a righteous upstanding citizen we should all follow. Maybe it could have been handled better by the government, I concede that point, but no way do I or will I condone this cult. An idiot who holds his own people hostage is no leader, he was a loon.

I made no commentary on the cult.The illegal military response was an action that reeks of the same heavy and ham-handed tactics that the Russians used in their approach to the Belsan school crisis and the theater hostage crisis. If you are truly concerned about the children you don't go in with guns blazing ,tanks pumping tear gas and knocking down walls where the children probably are located . There was absolutely no reason for the assault . They were going no where.

Don't even know who/what Clinoonistas are. Oh well.

Don't you feel out of it when someone invents a new label, you say I'll have to go and look that up

What elements do we have here

Clin, that's a partial for clinton or did he forget the T
Oon; could this be a partial for toon, or loon
Ista, that's spanish for being part of something

So I guess in Tom's little world it means being a clinton groupie

But yes we don't want everything he says to need a translation

don't you feel out of it when someone invents a new label, you say I'll have to go and look that up

What elements do we have here

Clin, that's a partial fo clinton or did he forget the T
oon; could this be a partial for toon, or loon
ista, that's spanish for being part of something

so I guess in Tom's little world it means being a clinton groupie

but yes we don't want everything he says to need a translation

Then why waste your time responding ?

then why waste your time respondingWhy waste your time making up childish words?

no way do I or will I condone this cult.

Do you condone the symbolic cannibals that follow Yesua ben Joseph, or the slavemasters of Muhamed, or the thugees of Kali? Every religious belief is, by definition, illogical and based on faith. Non-believers find some doctrine of every faith abhorrent. IT WAS STILL A CHURCH!

Every single aspect of the raid was of questionable constitutionality and even more questionable procedural legality. Then they brought in M-48 Patton tanks to destroy the buildings, gas the civilians, and grind the Constitution under their treads.

Why waste your time making up childish words?

I can't help it if you are obtuse . You had to know that my comments were about the Clintons . Again ;feel free to ignore my comments if you think it's childish . I won't loose any sleep over it.

Do you condone the symbolic cannibals that follow Yesua ben Joseph, or the slavemasters of Muhamed, or the thugees of Kali? Every religious belief is, by definition, illogical and based on faith. Non-believers find some doctrine of every faith abhorrent. IT WAS STILL A CHURCH!

Every single aspect of the raid was of questionable constitutionality and even more questionable procedural legality. Then they brought in M-48 Patton tanks to destroy the buildings, gas the civilians, and grind the Constitution under their treads.

Exactly .

No argument it was handled badly

IT WAS STILL A CHURCH!Do you find no different between a church and a cult? It's far too simplistic to simply call it a church (even in all-caps and bolded :-))

"According to the paper, Koresh declared he was entitled to at least 140 wives, that he was entitled to claim any of the females in the group as his, that he had fathered at least a dozen children and that some of these mothers became brides as young as 12 or 13 years old.[19]

In addition to allegations of sexual abuse and misconduct, Koresh and his followers were suspected of stockpiling illegal weapons."

They were being investigated for that and then all hell broke loose.

suspected of stockpiling illegal weapons that were not found . They also thought he was running an illegal meth lab... not true either . The guns they owned were legal and legally purchased . The ATF knew that in advance.

Regardless of their suspicions... nothing he was accused of justified a military tank and chemical warfare assault on the compound. It was "over-kill " and illegal under the Posse Comitatus Act .

Koresh invited the ATF to come to the compound in order to look and see what ever they wanted. They refused . Even if they wanted to arrest him ,they could've without incident .Instead they stormed the compound guns blazing . 4 ATF agents (who in a previous job had been body guards of Bill Clintoon ) were killed... probably by friendly fire. That's when the stand off began.


Do you find no different between a church and a cult? It's far too simplistic to simply call it a church (even in all-caps and bolded :-))

The words “cult” and “sect” are used any time the government want to cast suspicion on or discredit a particular church group.

The words “cult” and “sect” are used any time the government want to cast suspicion on or discredit a particular church group.You may be OK with one man staking claim on all women in a church group and having sex with 12 year olds but I'm not. That's why this isn't such a one-sided argument as you make it out to me.

Hello NK:

They were being investigated for that and then all hell broke loose.Nahhh.. They were being ASSAULTED and all hell broke out. And, the government lost. That pissed 'em off. They're going to SHOW this guy, and they did.

I don't care what he was accused of.

Excon

I don't care what he was accused of.I guess that's where we differ.

Hello again, NK:

I guess that's where we differ.I care about what he DID - not what he was ACCUSED of. They're NOT the same.

We'll never KNOW what he did, IF he did anything.

Excon

You may be ok with one man staking claim on all women in a church group and having sex with 12 year olds but I'm not. That's why this isn't such a one-sided argument as you make it out to me.

How much of a problem do you have with Muhamed claiming his divine right to marry as many wives as he can support, including the 9 year old Ayisha?

I repeat, non-believers find some aspects of all religious faiths abhorrent

Even believers can find parts of other religions abhorrent. You go back far enough, they all have used their gods to justify bad inhuman behavior.

I repeat, non-believers find some aspects of all religious faiths abhorrentYes and the reverse is true as well.

Islamists have their countries and I choose not to live there.

Yes and the reverse is true as well.

Islamists have their countries and I choose not to live there.

But they want yours

But they want yours

Give them prosperity and they will not want to live anywhereelse. People only migrate for a few reasons, persecution, war and lack of opportunity

Give them prosperity and they will not want to live anywhereelse. people only migrate for a few reasons, persecution, war and lack of opportunity

Sure.

From their scripture:

Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."

How much of a problem do you have with Muhamed claiming his divine right to marry as many wives as he can support, including the 9 year old Ayisha?

I repeat, non-believers find some aspects of all religious faiths abhorrent

I find all aspects of the Muslim faith abhorrent

I find all aspects of the Muslim faith abhorrent

Cannibalism, anyone?

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

The Eucharist is life. Cannibals eat what is dead

tomder55 - you keep repeating several factual inaccuracies:

1. This was not a military action. The federal agents running the operaton were under the command of the ATF and later the FBI, both civilian agencies. Your characterization of "Delta Force and Army tanks and incendiary grenades" is inaccurate. They did use tanks from the National Guard to punch holes in walls of the bulding, but to say that this made it a military assault is inaccurate.

2. The tear gas was not "incendiary." There is strong evidence that the fires were actually set by someone inside the building - the fire erupting almost simultaneously in multiple locations points to something other than a spark from tear gas. In any event there is no evidence that the government agents purposefully set fire to the building.

3. You say there was no reason for a raid, that they were just a harmless cult that should have been left alone. I suspect that the relatives of the four men they shot would disagree. Don''t forget that after those shootings the agents urged them to come out for 51 days before the assault began.

I'm not making excuses for what was obviously a botched operation. But to claim that this "killed the country" is bizarre.

The tanks were from Fort Hood, the Army's Fort Bragg-based Combat Applications Group(Aka Delta Force ) was involved in the assault . It doesn't impress me that civilians commanded militrary as some kind of clever way to get around Posse Comitatus.


Incendiary tear gas cartridges :

From the Washington Compost :

The day after the FBI acknowledged that its agents fired "a very limited number" of potentially incendiary tear gas cartridges during the final assault on the Branch Davidian compound, where 76 people died, Reno described herself as "very, very troubled" and "very, very upset" by the revelation. She promised a thorough investigation of the incident and the six years of denials about the types of munitions that were used. She vowed to "pursue it until I get to the truth."


The M651 military tear gas cartridges that the FBI now acknowledges using at Waco usually are made of aluminum or some other hard metal and contain CS in a solid form. After they are fired from a grenade launcher, a fuse inside the cartridge ignites and begins turning the solid material into a gas that escapes through a vent in the bottom of the cartridge.

According to Charles Cutshaw, an editor of Jane's Defence Information and an expert on this kind of weapon, these military tear gas cartridges are not intended to start fires. He said he was not aware of any studies or reports on how often such cartridges may have caused fires.

Cutshaw said a photograph of one of the spent military cartridges at Waco showed that the surface was not scorched or blistered, suggesting that the cartridge did not become hot enough to ignite a fire. "But let's presume that instead of landing on a hard surface, it landed in a pile of hay. Then I can assure you it would start a fire. If it was fired into a closed space with fuel fumes, say, from gasoline, it could start a fire. In fact, it could cause an explosion. Without knowing further details, I can't tell you whether that round started a fire at Waco."

Rogers, the agent who gave the authorization to use the military rounds, also was the Hostage Rescue Team commander during an earlier siege against white separatist Randy Weaver in August 1992 in Ruby Ridge, Idaho, in which Weaver's wife, Vicki, was shot and killed by an FBI sniper. "Rules of engagement" drafted by Rogers, which allowed agents to shoot armed suspects on sight, were later deemed illegal by a Justice Department task force. As a result of his role at Ruby Ridge, Rogers was issued a 10-day suspension in 1995 and voluntarily accepted reassignment to a non-tactical management job. He has since retired from the bureau.

In the Waco Siege, CS was dissolved in the organic solvent dichloromethane (also known as methylene chloride). The solution was dispersed as an aerosol via explosive force and when the highly volatile dichloromethane evaporated, CS crystals precipitated and formed a fine dispersion in the air
CS gas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CS_gas)
Use of CS gas canisters was later banned ,even in war, by the 1997 International Chemical Weapons Convention.

I already described the details of the death of the 4 ATF agents (former Clintoon body guards ) . Though the U.S. government has always claimed that the Davidians fired the first shots, even the FBI concluded in its report Project Megiddo that the ATF provoked the Davidians: “The violent tendencies of dangerous cults can be classified into two general categories — defensive violence and offensive violence. Defensive violence is utilized by cults to defend a compound or enclave that was created specifically to eliminate most contact with the dominant culture. The 1993 clash in Waco, Texas at the Branch Davidian complex is an illustration of such defensive violence. History has shown that groups that seek to withdraw from the dominant culture seldom act on their beliefs that the endtime has come unless provoked.”
The facts are that Koresh volunteered to allow the government to come in and inspect his weapons. Also Koresh went into Waco often and even jogged outside the compound. The government could easily arrest or detain him if that was their goal. But their goal was to crush them ;and they took out many women and children in the attempt.
You do realize that this massacre is on par with Wounded Knee ;especially in the ratio of women and children killed compared to men.