I had my property surveyed 10 years ago. During this process, my surveyor found all the original pipes/concrete markers, etc. these matched a survey had was done in 1946 and recorded at the registry of deeds. I had the new survey recorded at the registry of deeds.
I've owned the property for 23 years.
My neighbor who bought 12 years ago doesn't agree with the survey so he hired his own surveyor. His surveyor came up with quite a different result on the border of our two properties. His survey has not been recorded. Not only is the length of the line different, but the angle of the line is different.

He insists his is correct, and I of course have a lot of confidence in two matching surveys done over 60 years apart. He had cement points installed on what I consider to be my property.

How best to proceed to a resolution? If I was comfortable that his survey was valid, I would be fine with dividing the difference and getting whatever legal work needs to be done to wrap this up, but I doubt he is amenable to any compromise.

My guess is I need to hire a lawyer and I'm wondering what this might cost.

Any advice?

Have you spoken with your surveyor about this? Did they have any response?

In the past I have often seen where the property owners agree to have another survey prepared by a third surveyor who is chosen by the two original surveyors, with the cost split equally and the parties agreeing to be bound by this third survey. This might be an option to propose before resorting to retaining an attorney.

If your neighbor doesn't agree to this then I would definitely speak to an attorney.

Yes, I've talked to my surveyor about it. I asked my neighbor who his surveyor was and he reluctantly told me, but then added, "he doesn't want to talk to your surveyor". That in part is why I am suspicious about his survey/surveyor.

If his surveyor is not willing to talk to your surveyor then the two of them agreeing on a third surveyor is probably not an option, but I would still suggest it to your neighbor. And if I were you I would start looking for an attorney.

I think you are right about locating an attorney. My surveyor has some he was going to suggest.

My surveyor was astonished that another surveyor wouldnt' be willing to talk to him about how he came to his results. That is what makes me wonder whether that survey is valid or if there is something unethical going on.

When a surveyor records a survey, does that mean that they are standing behind their results, or is it meaningless?

It means that they are standing behind the result.

Take a look at the bottom of the survey he prepared. Is it "certified" to you? Or is there any type of disclaimer language? It doesn't really matter. If he had the survey recorded with the county clerk then he is standing behind it.

I haven't seen it and I very much doubt he would show it to me. All I've seen are the cement points he had put in on the side where our properties touch. Oddly, he didn't have any other points or even stakes put in on other corners of his land.

I'm talking about your survey, that your surveyor prepared. Is it "certified" to you?

The staking your neighbor did is not unusual. Stakes are priced per corner and can be quite expensive, so it's not unusual for the owner to have the property staked only along the side where there is a dispute.

Yes, it is certified. There's a large block of text that says certified this and that with his initials and date. So is there a difference between recorded surveys that are or are not certified? What does certified mean?
Thanks for your replies by the way.

The certified means that he is specifically standing behind the survey. If it eventually ends up that he was wrong then you can hold him responsible for your damages.

If the certified survey is the one that is recorded then not only is he responsible to you but also to anyone else who may damaged by it in the future, including anyone who purchases the property from you.

Interesting. I'd be interested to know if my neighbor's survey was certified to him. I think the only way I can find that out if if/when he has it recorded, and then it will be available to anyone to look at.

That's right. The survey isn't a public document unless it gets recorded.

Hello Lisa:

Is there a reason why the surveyors have to come to an agreement about the 3rd party, and not the property owners?

And, ultimately, after the lawyers have been paid, and it's years down the road, won't the judge ORDER that a new survey be taken in any case?

Seems to me that when confronted with the COSTS of litigation, and what the eventuality will be, the owners ought to be able to solve it. That, presumes, of course, that people are reasonable.

excon

There's no specific reason why the property owners can't agree upon a third surveyor. It's just that in the cases I've seen in the past, it was always the surveyors who picked a third surveyor. And if this is the method that's followed, it's unlikely that a judge in the future would require that a fourth surveyor be chosen and a fourth survey prepared.

Obviously, getting the parties to agree on a third survey, whether the surveyor is chosen by the owners or the first two surveyors, is a method for avoiding future litigation. There's no guarantee that one of the property owners will choose to fight the third survey but that owner will have a tough time convincing the court that two surveyors were wrong and one was right.

Hello again, Lisa:

I've always loved you...

excon

I've missed you, Excon! ♥

I would take the bull by the horns here before it goes too far. You have an officially recorded survey that says the property lines are at x and that the cement points are on your property. I would send the neighbor a certified letter stating that and giving him 5 days to remove the cement points or you will remove them (at his expense).

If he wants to sue over the property line, let him file suit and let his surveyor testify in court about how he arrived as his survey.

I'll bet he will back off if you do that.

I would have an attorney do that instead of me. I also wonder what precedence there is, if any, that two surveys match exactly, 60 years apart, and I've been using the land as mine for 23 years since I knew where one pipe marker is which is now being disputed.
I've had trees removed, fill brought in, sprinkler installed, grass grown etc.
The neighbor also thought the land was mine until 2 years ago when he came across an old neighborhood lot plan from 1908 written in pencil that showed a different lot configuration.

I'm just baffled how the other surveyor came up with something so different.

That is your prerogative. If you want to have an attorney write such a letter, even better. But I would get it down ASAP.

The ideal method for determining the lot lines is a survey drawn based on the legal descriptions in the recorded deeds for the property. Unless the surveyor is basing the survey on a recorded, filed subdivision map, the deed descriptions would be controlling.

There is a licensed surveyor on this site. I'll try to remember exactly who it was and get him in on this.

My quitclaim deed describes the property by identifying the survey that was done and recorded in 1946 with all the angles and lengths on that survey.

I talked to my real estate attorney an hour ago. He said wait a few days while the two surveyors talk and identify who went wrong or if there is a real discrepancy. Then decide what to do next.

One other thing to consider: get in touch with your title insurance company and tell them that the neighbor is encroaching on your property. Part of the service they provide is going after people who encroach.

I talked to my real estate attorney an hour ago. he said wait a few days while the two surveyors talk and identify who went wrong or if there is a real discrepancy. then decide what to do next.

I thought the two surveyors weren't talking? If you know for a fact that they are, then wait. But if your surveyor has tried to talk to the other and been rebuffed, don't wait on sending the letter I suggested.

Bottom line is you want the neighbor to sue you. You have advantages as the defendant in this case.

I don't know that they're talking. Mine certainly will. I'll find out about the other one. My attorney said he is sure they will talk, even though my neighbor said he wouldn't. Maybe my neighbor doesn't want to get a bill from him for this time.

This is a lot more common than you think.
I also know that there are plenty of people calling themselves surveyors who aren't. They go to the town, get a plot plan for the street, and measure - that's it! They charge a fifth of what a real one charges. I went through this in a city burb with rows of 50 x 100 plots.
I have friends in Maine who had a border dispute over rocky terrain on the coast. They went to court and the judge ordered the line drawn down the middle.

... His surveyor came up with quite a different result on the border of our two properties. His survey has not been recorded. ...

If it has not been recorded, and he won't let you see it, it is meaningless as far as you are concerned. I see little need to get excited about anything unless he hires an attorney to make some sort of written demand upon you.

On the other hand, you should be aware than in some places it is illegal to tamper with survey monuments under some circumstances. So you might want to hold off doing that until you have consulted with you attorney.

Here is the pertinent statute in Massachusetts:


"Section 94. Whoever wilfully, intentionally and without right breaks down, injures, removes or destroys a monument erected for the purpose of designating the boundaries of a town or of a tract or lot of land, ... shall be punished by imprisonment for not more than six months or by a fine of not more than two hundred dollars. " General Laws: CHAPTER 266, Section 94 (http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIV/TitleI/Chapter266/Section94)

Not sure this would apply to the OP since these new monuments are not recorded. But its wise to be cautious.