How do I tell which copper pipe is the inlet of the water coming into the house? One of the pipe is thicker, could that be the inlet?

<a href="http://s598.photobucket.com/albums/tt61/pearlywhitecalvus/Stuff/?action=view&amp;current=DE8B9077-D2E8-4D52-B1A1-3FC916948BDC-10197-00000A83DCEB7504_zps4f24c610.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt61/pearlywhitecalvus/Stuff/DE8B9077-D2E8-4D52-B1A1-3FC916948BDC-10197-00000A83DCEB7504_zps4f24c610.jpg" border="0" alt="Uploaded from the Photobucket iPhone App"></a>

Can't see you link, try again or post pic here. Scroll down click on go advance, click on manage attachments, browse for picture, open then click upload.

I was ble to look at the photo by redesigning the link (I will post it). That is a mess. I see some of the pipes have bits of pipe insulation on them - hot water maybe or heat? I'll let someone else look. Here's the link.
http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt61/pearlywhitecalvus/Stuff/DE8B9077-D2E8-4D52-B1A1-3FC916948BDC-10197-00000A83DCEB7504_zps4f24c610.jpg

You will need to copy and paste

Thanks Handyman. Impossible to tell with out wider prospective. Frankly those pipe look like some kind of heating system (probably hot water floor) to me.

Yeah. I was thinking the same thing that it is some kind of home made manifold system.

Thanks handyman for fixing my picture.

They are cool to the touch and routes to the water heater and my washer. There is no label on them at all. I am trying to install a water softener myself and have no idea which pipe to tap into...

Post a pic further up the wall. To post a picture on this site, upload picture in JPEG format and see my post (#2) above.

I have uploaded additional pictures.

The last picture is the water valve, how do I know which one is the main shut off? I know the one on the top is to the outside faucet, but not sure which one of the other two is the main one.

Tough to guess on this. Short of shutting the water off at the meter, and cutting all the colds coming out of the floor, then turning the water back on to see witch one water comes out of, it will be hard to say from here. Might not be a bad idea to do this any way and add shut offs to each pipe that is penetrating the floor for future control. Hate to say it, but unless every one of those pipes is type K, you will eventually have a leak under ground, so isolation valves will come in handy someday.

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hkstroud, I guess I should've read those first, haha. Both those two tags states that those are my stop and waste valves for the outside lawn faucets. I guess the only one without the tag would be the main shut off then?

As for mygirlsdad77, I am not sure what type of pipes they are. The townhouse is 19 years old and it was like this when I purchased it almost 2 years ago.

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Great Job Harold, Thanks.

John

Agree with most of what Harold posted, except as presented below in the picture... ;)

Harold, thanks again, you've been very helpful thus far. The only thing remaining now is to determind which one of the two pipes coming out of the ground is the one I need to tap into...

I am planning to cut right in between the first and middle pipe from the left and tap right into both the cold and hot water supply. That is if the first pipe from the left is where the water is coming into the house. Is there a way to test it without cutting the pipe first?

Open several hot water faucets, preferably two handle faucets, so you know you have only opened hot side. Feel the pipes as close to the floor as possible. You should be able to feel the water moving through the pipe on its way to the water heater.

Open several hot water faucets, preferably two handle faucets, so you know you have only opened hot side. Feel the pipes as close to the floor as possible. You should be able to feel the water moving through the pipe on its way to the water heater.

Tried doing that last night and all three pipes felt like water are moving through them. All my faucets are the one knob kind, which might effect the result a little. Any other way to tell at all?

Only other way that I can think of is to start cutting pipes. What are your plumbing skills.

I agree with Harold, but am still unclear where the water meter is in relation to the water heater? Is the water meter close to the water heater, on the other side of the room? Back to you...

Not only water lines but look at the gas lines too!

unclear where the water meter is in relation to the water heater?

Me to.
This is what I imagine the lay out looks like.

CeereeOoo
Draw us a picture.

Ah, I guess that would help since it's layout is kind of odd.
Here you go.

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I would bet the pipe going through the wall is a frost free hose bib, as mark suggested earlier, and the valve to it just shuts off that bib. Of course the valve coming directly out of the meter should shut the water off to the complete house. Now, in the second pic of the pipes going into the concrete, I would guess would be from left to right- 1",3/4",1",1",1",3/4". This narrows it down to two 1",3/4" line (in the bottom pic in post #23) is the water feed from the meter since it is the closest in proximity to the meter, yes? That's how I would have done it If I did such things, lol. However this is just an educated guess. Only way to know for sure is to make a couple cuts. Here is how I would go about this. Cut the left pipe in the vertical halfway between where it comes out of the floor and the 90. Then cut to the right of the 90 halfway between that 90 and the first tee. Of course make sure the water is off first. Then slowly turn the water on and see where the water comes out. If not from the left pipe, then you know it's the next one inch pipe. If it is indeed the first pipe like I think, I would suggest when putting it back togther, installing a 1" pipes that could be the feed. Either of the left two 1 inchers.

Now Im gonna go out on a limb. Im betting the very left 1" sweat union to make it all go back together nice and easy (as long as you know how to solder.) In my opinion, I have just given you your best plan of attack at this point. Other ideas guys?

PS. Cee, there seems to be some confusion about the piping at the meter. Just can't see all the pipes and connections in the pictures presented. Could you please post a few more pics at different angles at the meter so we can wrap our minds around this a bit better? I would bet my life savings that Mark nailed it in post #14.

Disclaimer: I have no actual life savings.

Heck, look real close guys, the writing is even on the wall. Feed loop (main shut off on the oulet of the meter) and sillcocks (even have the little yellow tags to verify, but probably can't read the writing on them anymore?)

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The first two pipes from the left is the same size piping as the pipe feeding from the meter into the ground.

mygirlsdad77:

That is what I am guessing as well. Can't really get a better shot of the meter piping since it's a relative small little disclosure. I do not know how to solder, was planning on using those Sharkbite connectors to somehow rout the water upward and feed to the softener. My initial plan was to cut right between the first and second pipe, connect one long pipe upward to feed the softener. Then another long pipe back down to connect to the middle pipe. Only thing is that I don't know if there is enough room between the two pipes to make the two connections.

Ha, I completely forgot you were doing this to install a softener. Okay, sharks will work just fine as long as you use then on 100% straight and round portions of the copper, and make sure the copper surface is extremely clean and free of burrs, etc. Shouldn't have a problem here, just watch the pipe coming out of the ground (its soft copper and comes in rolls, so you need to find the truest round portion for a shark to fit properly. Things look pretty straight up high, so you should be good to go. Just cut as high as possible without getting into solder runs at the 90. Hope this all makes sense.

Oh, and if there isn't room to install two 1" 90's in the horizontal, just cut the first pipe in the vertical and use a shark coupling there, then a shark 90 to make the other connection.

Picture helps a lot!

A water softener will NOT fit over by the water pipes and water heater, so you are looking at the wrong area here!

With that being said, you want to connect into the cold water after it goes through the meter, but before it goes into the floor AT THE METER (Harold kind of said it at post #12).

You will shut off the main water supply and hook into the cold water supply (again, before it goes into the floor), install your water softener near the meter, and should be all set! It should be as simple as that!

That make sense?

For crying out loud in the beard, Mark!! Why make me go through all this thinking when you have the actual correct way to do this? Lol. Jeeze, sometimes I can't see the trees through the forrest. Well Cee. You now have the straight forward way to do this. Pretty simple when you really think about it. Duh me, duh.

Wait a minute, now that I look back at the drawings, I see a lot of empty space between the water meter and the other pipes. Seems to me it would be just as easy to hook in where Cee wants to rather than at the meter. Might even have more room to cut the pipes that aren't at the meter? The feed from the meter looks like it is right up against the wall. Proceed as you desire, Cee, but do know that cutting the copper pipe with anything other than an actuall tubing cutter may leave burrs that would effect the shark fitting. Not really an issue as long as you clean everything up real good and have a straight cut. Now, this is making sense. Lol.

Only problem with my solution is you still only have a 50 50 chance of getting the right pipe for feed. If you do it at the meter, no chance for error.

Okay, just one last question. Is there room in the closet (or whatever the diagonal room is) for the softener, and are you planning on running the drain for the softener to the floor drain?

Just have to remember that the water heater will need to be removed down the road, so still looks to me like the best place to put the water softener is over by the water meter, unless that door by the pipes/water heater is a closet and then that could work.

I'm guessing that door is the entrance to the room or did I miss something posted?

Back to you Ceereeooo

The bottom valve at the meter, the one with the broken handle has a waste. The piping appears to come out of the floor to the valve and turn and go through the wall. It does not appear to connected to the pipe out of the meter. Someone did some work here because they scorched the drywall. I think that is the stop valve for the outside faucet.

Yes we really need to know where the softener will be.

Because there is an outside faucet (sillcock) coming out of the pipe at the meter before the pipe goes into the ground then that pipe MUST be the outlet from the water meter. This means that there is an INLET shutoff on the other side of the water meter.

If I am right and the water softener will go next to the meter then Ceereeooo should just need to shut off the inlet or outlet shutoffs to the meter and connect BELOW the shutoff for the outside faucet...

I was told by the salesman, not too trust worthy hippie looking dude, that as long as I have a 2ft by 2ft area, the softener should fit. There isn't much room elsewhere to put it as we do need the room in front of the washer and dryer to put the clothes into the machines themselves. The room isn't large at all and the picture I provided is certainly not up to scale, haha.

There is certainly no room for me to cut into the line before it goes into the ground, unless I do some real creative piping. I have no prior experience at this, so it's going to be a tough one for me to do anything other than the ordinary. Plus, I would have to cut through the disclosure where the meter is. Also, there is no electric outlet by the meter.

Only if I can find the old contractor I used to employ. I called up this one guy and he couldn't even give me a rough estimate since my home does not have a softener previously. If it had a softener previously, I wouldn't need to hire someone to swap, sigh. I just have such good luck with things.

Here was my thoughts... see diagram. Remember, that water heater will need to come out some day...

Otherwise, I'd bet you money that the first pipe that comes out of the ground by the pipe manifold is the main supply... ;)

Possible?

Another note... see picture below:

I would agree. Probably to tight for Shark Bites though. No mater where the softener sits the pipe can go to the ceiling and come down. So can electric line. Bet the breaker panel is not too far away.

Mark,
Did you get that snow I sent?

No... I didn't. What color was it... *smirk*!

Okay, this picture is more to scale than my previous one, haha.

I wished the water line was coming from the ceiling rather than underground. The breaker box is actually pretty far away, it is located at the end of the garage near the garage door which sits behind this laundry/utility room.

Massplumber:

Your picture looks too complicated for a noob like myself, haha.

Okay, drew up my plan of attack for the piping. Of course everything will fit perfectly in my head but when it's time to do it, nothing fits.

As far as the piping goes, that is exactly what I described, or envisioned earlier. However, as Mark stated, that is going to play hell with service or replacement of the water heater in the future. Not a great big deal, but certainly makes a somewhat simple job into a real headache when working on or replacing the water heater because now you have to disconnect and move the water softener to get at the water heater. Plumbers nightmare for sure, but it will work. Just expect to spend a lot more in labor if you ever hire a plumber to work on or replace the w/h, or at the very least cussing yourself if you are the lucky chap that gets to do it. Only other option that I can see is to get yourself a stackable washer/drier unit and then you would have plenty of room for the softener next it. Im betting the old lady would love the idea of a new stackable washer drier combo? Running out of ideas here, sorry.


Okay, one last thought. What rooms are around the utility room? Any Closets or voids anywhere near there? If so, you may get creative and place the softener somewhere else. Just have to find a place for the drain, and to make the water piping simple, use pex. Usually a lot more options than you might think. Where there is a will, there is always a way.

I'm with everybody else on the location of the softener. Besides it looks like you have a sump pump or something in front of the water heater. Marks approach is easier to do. If you can get a Sharkbite on the pipe out of the meter, switch to Pex, go to the softener and come back to the pipe in the floor. Put you bypass and isolation valves at the softener or any where along the way. That way your only real plumbing is getting a Sharkbite on the pipe out of the meter and one on the pipe going into the floor.

If you drawing is anywhere near scale, you have more room between the door and the water meter than you do in front of the water heater.

There isn't a sump pump in front of the water heater, just a drain (I believe). The space between the door and the water heater isn't exactly going to work. There is no electric outlet for me to plug the softener into. There is an electric outlet right by the water heater and the pipes. If I do the pex piping, wouldn't I have to route the pipe from the water meter to the other side of the room where the other pipes are?

As for the water heater replacement dealio, it will definitely be a challenge. We are hesitant to switch to a stackable washer and dryer setup since that will mean we will have to spend extra $$. We are very limited in funds at the moment, hence the self plumbing job here. The garage is directly behind the wall where all the appliances are placed in the laundry room. Then there is the kitchen where the door leads to. Other than that, the other walls are to the outside of the unit.

Man, this is getting more complicated by the day for sure, stupid townhouse...

Is there room in the garage (if its heated, or no chance of freezing)? If so, that sounds like an ideal place for it. No codes that I know of would not allow this.

Is there room in the garage (if its heated, or no chance of freezing)? If so, that sounds like an ideal place for it. No codes that I know of would not allow this.

Unfortunately, the garage is not heated and will freeze during the cold Minnesota winters. We kept ice cream out there when the kids come over :).

Now my plan is to somehow elevate the softener so that it won't be blocking the drain and will give me access to re-light the water heater if I ever have to again. A loaded softener can't weigh that much, can it? I imagine a good 3-400 lbs, if that is the case, I can just go to Ikea and get their little stool like table thing for $7.99 and place the softener on top of it. I used the larger version of that as a stand to a 40 gallon aquarium, which with water, weighed a good approximately 460lbs.

The girlfriend is getting antsy about hooking the softener up since currently it is sitting right in front of the door from the garage. Looks like I will have to give this a try over the weekend. Hopefully I won't end up with a pool party.

I wish you the best of luck on your weekend project. Let us know how it all turns out.

How long should the water stop gushing out from the pipes after I have turned off the water? It just keeps oozing out of there, can't really proceed with it like that.

Means you stop valve is not turning off the water completely. You will have to go to the street and turn off water there.

You may have to rush down to Home Depot and get a Sharkbite stop valve or pipe cap if you can't get to stop valve at the street.

Don't you have two stop valves?

Only one that I can tell. The other two are for outside hose outlets. I just read that people use white bread to stop the water just enough time to do the connection, going to give that a try.

By the way, it was the first pipe from the left. At least one thing went right.

Bread is not going to stop the water. That only works temporarily when you have a little water draining back when you are trying to solder pipe.

Nothing is going to stop the water except a seal equivalent to a pipe joint. No matter how little the volume of water that is leaking, eventually the pressure will build up to your line pressure.

Do you know where the street valve is?

Do you have a Sharkbite valve to fit that pipe?

Got it all hooked up now. The bread was able to hold the water back just long enough for me to clean up the copper pipe and insert the sharkbite connector.

I have no clue where the street valve is, this whole compound is built rather strange. I did not get a sharkbite valve, totally forgot about it the two times that I went to Homedepot, sigh.

I went over to one of my neighbors and he was kind enough to show me his setup. He was surprised that my unit did not come with a softener as the water here is pretty darn hard. His unit was the model home, so it had a nice Commers softener installed.

Thank you all of you for helping out, it's been a great learning process for sure. I managed to hook it up without flooding the house thanks to all of your advices. I could have done a better job, the Pex pipes were a bit too long. Not the best looking plumbing at all. Hopefully everything will hold together just long enough before we move on to a real single family home. Once again, thank you!

We should have told you, you don't do plumbing work when the plumbing store is closed. Now you know why. Glad you are not swimming.

Glad you got it done. For future reference, you can slap shark fittings on even if water is running out a little. And you can cut pex to the length you need.

I should have thought of getting it done before the stores closed, haha. As for the sharkbite fitting, I did not know that you can put them on while water still runs out of the pipes. We were sittign there waiting for the water to stop oozing out, it seemed like forever.

Well, something didn't go correctly somewhere. Seems like some water is leaking from the softener. After a recharge, there was a puddle of water around the softener. I checked all of the piping and they were all bone dry. Also, no water puddle when the softener isn't recharging. I am going to have to play around with it some more. Hopefully nothing major.

Uh oh. Is this a brand new softener, or a used one? Hope its an easy fix.

It's a brand new one. I suspect the drain hose were splashing water out of the floor drain. I have re-taped them so they are now pointing into the floor drain. No recharge yet and no puddles (thank god), so it's not leaking constantly. I will have to supervise the machine when it recharges to see if my theory is correct.

Figured out what happened. The softener has a backwash function and when it does go off, water literally shoots out. Most of the water does get into the drain, but then a lot of it also get splashed back up onto the ground. I have secured the drain tube so now it points directly into the drain, that should solve it. But then again, I will have to wait until the next time it recharges to really know.

Well, you could post a picture of this contraption you have built. After all, we sweated over this along with you.

I agree, lets see a pic. Also, you should be able to manually put that baby into backwash and watch it. Should give clear instruction in the install manual.