What will become of the people who have rejected the gospel of peace? Will they live in eternal death forever in the lake of fire?

That depends. Is God the merciful caring God, father of all, that Christians claim he is? If so, could he condemn any of his children to hell?

Are you a parent? If your kids don't listen to you, do what you say, would you condemn them? Would you be that vengeful?

I can't be sure because of the limits of my human brain and it's inability to see or understand things outside of time.
I died once and they revived me. I went to the white light and the peace was beyond understanding. There was NO human negative emotion. Pure joy and happiness.
Still I am not sure what is beyond this body's life.
My best friend died last year and that really set my heart and brain thinking about what comes next, if anything.
Can I cope not being in my comfortable skin? Will I see my friend and others who have gone before us?
I am a Hindu and I have to put all of this in God's hands because I am overwhelmed with the whole concept of a spiritual life and eternal life.

Alty,

The problem with your argument is this.. God NEVER sends anyone to hell, a person sends himself there by rejecting God's free gift. You are correct in understanding that God is loving and wants no one to enter hell. Therefore he sent HIS ONLY SON to take our place so no one ever has to be doomed to an eternity in utter darkness without God.

While God is indeed loving and merciful he is also HOLY and JUST. He cannot be one attribute without the others. Therefore someone MUST pay for sins because of his awesome HOLINESS. Human beings cannot stand in his presence without being justified.

We aren't HOLY... we don't really even completely understand what it means. So we as parents can overlook disobidience and sin. God CANNOT. When you understand that or at least attempt to, maybe the gospel will make more sense. I don't know...

Curtis,

According to the bible in Revelation anyone who rejects the gospel is cast in the lake of fire forever and ever.

Well put Classy... we'll always get the wrong answer if we try and rationalize and figure things out as humans... but if we simply rely on the revealed word of God, there's no way around it. Of course some people will never like the answer that has already been provided by God in His word and they'll try and find a way around it.

Curtis,

According to the bible in Revelation anyone who rejects the gospel is cast in the lake of fire forever and ever.
I think God is bigger and more loving than that.

WG,

I didn't say it , the bible did. So then are you a universalist?

I think God is bigger and more loving than that.

God is bigger and more loving than we could ever know but he has made us with free will. We ALL have a choice and if you choose to reject him ( the death of Jesus on the cross who was the perfect sinless sacrifice to pay for all of our sins) than Romans 3:23 applies.

For the wages of sin is ( eternal death) but the gift of God is eternal life. Eternal death means permanent separation from God in Hell.

God loved us enough that he sent the ONLY sacrifice tha was good enough to pay for ALL of the sins of mankind. That was Jesus. Jesus was born as a man but lived a perfect life with no sin. He was falsely accused and was tortured and killed because of OUR sin. Jesus willingly subjected himself to this because he loves us that much.

But his free gift is only available in this life. After you die , you will be forever condemned to hell if you have made the choice to reject him. No sin can enter into his presence and only those who fully accept Jesus as their Saviour are then given the free gift of eternal life through salvation.

God doesn't want that any should perish but with the free will we are given , it is truly our choice to accept or reject.

There is no cost , you don't have to donate money , you don't ask a priest for forgiveness ( only Jesus can forgive sins) , the Pope has no special relationship to God anymore than any other person does. You don't have to worship or pray to an object made of metal or stone , you don't have to publish anything in the newspaper .

All you have to do is acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that he died on the cross as God to pay for our sins. Accept him as your Saviour and Lord and then follow his teachings and commands found thought the bible.

Faith and works go hand in hand but faith comes first. Simply saying some words without meaning them won't do you a but of good. You have to admit you are a sinner ( we all are ) , acknowledge that Jesus paid for your sins and ask him to come into your life and forgive you.

It is that easy. But it must be sincere and not just " fire insurance". For someone to repeat those words and contine in their life of sin as though NOTHNG happened is a sign that they were not sincere.

God is loving and merciful. That is an amazing truth, and actually, it is the reason we HAVE the Gospel. He provided a way for us to go to Heaven. But we must remember, He is also holy and just. When someone commits a crime, they go to court and are sentenced to a punishment, right? If the person you loved most was murdered, wouldn't you want them thrown in prison forever?

Well, the Scriptures say "by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin". Man disobeyed the laws of God... basically committing spiritual suicide. God is the Judge of our court case. Through His mercy, He provides a way for us to live eternally with Him in Heaven, but if we reject the Gospel of Peace, he must do what any righteous, just Judge would do - punish the wrong-doer.

So, yes. If we reject God's Word, and refuse to accept it before death, then we will be banished to the lake of fire forever.
It is a fearful truth for the unsaved, and a sobering truth for the Christian who does not witness.

WG,

I didn't say it, the bible did. So then are you a universalist?
No, but I'm not sure what hell really is. Revelation (singular) was written for a particular problem which now is past. And is God still revealing His will to us?

it is truly our choice to accept or reject.

Reject, yes. Accept, no. I'm with Martin Luther: "“I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me through the Gospel, enlightened me by his gifts, and sanctified and preserved me in the true faith."

I would rather put my faith in the word of God than that of a great man.

While th Holy Spirit does draw man to God , man still has the free will to accept or reject. God does not require that we accept him. But , there is a heavy penalty to pay for rejection.

Hebrews 9:27. It s appointed unto man once to die ( no reincarnation) and than the judgment.

The Christian will only be judged on the works that he did or didn't do as a Christian. There is no danger of them going to hell as they have already been saved by the blood of Jesus. Jesus paid for them to get not heaven with his blood sacrifice.

The unsaved cannot mke that claim and will be judged based on ALL of the suns they committed during their life but one sin alone is enough to send them to eternal hell. Some may say that God is too loving to do that but he WAS so living that he sent Jesus to die for you and you just said no. God demands perfection to be in his presence , which can only be achieved through Jesus Christ paying for us.

Those who don't accept Jesus will have no claim for eternal life and will be sent off to the Lake of Fire forever.

It is not too late to repent of your sins and accept Jesus during your life but don't delay. You never know when your life will end and it will be too late.

WG,

According to Revelation ( I never put an s on it) it is only after the great white throne that people are thrown into the Lake of Fire. The great white throne judgement has not taken place because before it takes place, the Lord Jesus needs to return to earth and set up his earthly kingdom for 1000 years. None of these things have happened and are future events. I do not believe the passages the speak of these events are symbolic of a problem of long ago now resolved.

All I know for sure is I don't want to be in a place known as hell, the lake of fire or separated without God. Jesus spoke more about hell than anyone. Whether one believes it is actual or not it isn't a place that Jesus spoke fondly about. However I do believe it is a literal place.

WG,

According to Revelation ( I never put an s on it)
As a site editor, I had removed the "s" on "Revelation" in one of your previous posts. I should have quoted you before I edited. This was the post --

Curtis,

According to the bible in Revelation anyone who rejects the gospel is cast in the lake of fire forever and ever.

Last edited by Wondergirl; Today at 04:15 PM.


it is only after the great white throne that people are thrown into the Lake of Fire.
Revelation almost missed being put into the canon. The message it gives was for a certain time and place. I don't believe in the theologies that have gotten whipped up around the Last Day regarding a millennium, etc.

However I do believe it is a literal place.
And it might be here and now.

Isaiah 55:8. For my thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways.

While it may seem like the book of Revelation may have barely made it , God knew in advance how everything would work out. It's his plan , his creation and his world. We cannot imagine that anyone could create such a world , have a plan for man that every single person could have the opportunity for eternal life and cause certain things to happen to point us in the right direction.

Our finite minds will eventually realize and understand that this entire world and universe was no accident or big bang. God doesn't demand anything. He freely offers to all of us the same deal. Accept his loving offer or strike out on your own without him. There is no middle ground. You either accept God or you reject him.

Whichever way you choose to go will have eternal results.

So the question is... Eternity... smoking or non-smoking.

You either accept God or you reject him.

As I said before.. .

And what will you do with all the mentally ill and mentally handicapped people who haven't had the wherewithal to even consider God in their lives?

I didn't say it , the bible did.

You say this a lot, but it isn't strictly true. What it actually means is, your particular interpretation of the Bible said it. You are fond of interpreting Revelation literally, something it was never meant to be, so the actual issue is this: when we take John's writings the way HE meant them to be taken, the GWT and lake of fire are metaphors, not literal events or places. Metaphors for what? That's the big question. But as usual, taking apocalyptic literature and trying to interpret it literally just leads to a mess.

The Bible does not explicitly say but...

Nehemiah 8:2. An Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both men and women and all that could hear with understanding.

This verse covers a Chief Priest who called the people ( a lot if them) together for instruction from God. ( the law). Note how the last sentence indicates only those that could hear with understanding were compelled to attend.

I think knowing the loving kindness of God who made man in his own image , is shown to exclude those who could not hear with understanding. This would include unborn children up to the age of accountability ( which is not a specific number as thus would vary by the individual ) but would never be attainable for someone who by reason of physical or mental incapacity.

Certainly , a person who is not of sound mind cannot legally enter into a contract , cannot plead guilty in court , cannot be allowed to do a lot of things due to their condition. And in some cases , are not held criminally responsible for crimes.

I don't think it is a giant leap to think God is any different. God created them and only HE knows whether they have th ability to understand. God is love but God is just. He wants nobody to perish.

2 Peter 3:9. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

If there was a really good , kind , fully understanding person as a judge , you would expect them to have compassion on someone ( adult or child) who didn't have the mental capacity to commit a crime.

God is really , really good , loving beyond all belief , kind yet demanding of perfection of those who chose to reject him. You would expect him to not condemn a baby or mentally challenged individual to hell because they didn't have the capacity to accept or reject him. And you would be right.

You would expect him to not condemn a baby or mentally challenged individual to hell because they didn't have the capacity to accept or reject him. And you would be right.
So Jeffrey Dahmer and Adam Lanza and Ted Bundy and Richard Speck will be in heaven.

Nehemiah 8:2. An Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both men and women and all that could hear with understanding.

This verse covers a Chief Priest who called the people ( a lot if them) together for instruction from God. ( the law). Note how the last sentence indicates only those that could hear with understanding were compelled to attend.


That's not what it says. You need to read a little further, specifically to verse 8. Ezra and the others not only read it, but they translated it, probably into Aramaic, for those who didn't understand Hebrew. This included most everybody, because the call went out to both men and women and all who could understand. "Understand" in this context refers to the language, not the content, because the Torah was in Hebrew and most people weren't fluent in that language any more, having adopted Aramaic during the Exile. Both those who could understand Hebrew and those who couldn't were "compelled to attend"; verse 3 repeats the formula "men and women and those who could understand." That passage isn't going to be of any help in answering WG's question.

So Jeffrey Dahmer and Adam Lanza and Ted Bundy and Richard Speck will be in heaven.

All of these guys lived into adulthood. All but Lanza held jobs ( of some sort) and worked as well as participated in society.

Having some form of mental illness does not mean they can't be held accountable for their actions. What they did took planning , work and then they either fled ( consciousness of guilt) or in Lanzas case , committed suicide when the police were entering the building.

God will be the final judge and already knows their mindset. I do not believe any of them would be able to claim insanity as their defense. Not in an earthly courtroom and most certainly not in a heavenly one.

So Jeffrey Dahmer and Adam Lanza and Ted Bundy and Richard Speck will be in heaven.

You're assuming demonic influence has less to do with it than mental illness? Those men knew what they were doing.

That's not what it says. You need to read a little further, specifically to verse 8. Ezra and the others not only read it, but they translated it, probably into Aramaic, for those who didn't understand Hebrew. This included most everybody, because the call went out to both men and women and all who could understand. "Understand" in this context refers to the language, not the content, because the Torah was in Hebrew and most people weren't fluent in that language any more, having adopted Aramaic during the Exile. Both those who could understand Hebrew and those who couldn't were "compelled to attend"; verse 3 repeats the formula "men and women and those who could understand." That passage isn't going to be of any help in answering WG's question.

While I can't disagree with what you said... understand certainly would have more than one meaning. Would a child who knew but a few words of either language have understood ? Nope.

You're assuming demonic influence has less to do with it than mental illness? Those men knew what they were doing.
Demonic influence? Check back with me in heaven about this.

Dave,

So you don't believe there is going to be a great white throne judgement or do you believe it has already taken place?

While I can't disagree with what you said....understand certainly would have more than one meaning. Would a child who knew but a few words of either language have understood ? Nope.

Perhaps, but that has nothing to do with the passage you cited. In that specific context, we know what "understand" meant, and no, it didn't have more than one meaning. There's no need. So I'm not sure what your point is.

WG,

If hell is here and now, then why did Jesus have to die? I mean really? What is the point if he wasn't saving us from an eternity apart from God.

So you don't believe there is going to be a great white throne judgement or do you believe it has already taken place?

A literal one? No, I don't. Again, that's not how Revelation was meant to be understood, and trying to make it literal does violence to it. Has it already taken place? I don't know. It depends on what it's a metaphor for. There are lots of ideas about that, and I don't know which (if any) is correct. Nor do I care. The end of the book says we win. That's good enough for me.

WG,

If hell is here and now, then why did Jesus have to die? I mean really? What is the point if he wasn't saving us from an eternity apart from God.
He was saving us for an eternity WITH God.

Very good answers... God is Love for sure, and his will is that no one perishes, but all to come unto repentance. Yet, every day people are dying without Christ.
Death is only a temporary thing, as the last enemy to be destroyed will be death. Death is going to be cast into the lake of fire along with all of Satans angels, and all those who reject the free gift of salvation. If death will be destroyed then what could possibly worse then death? There is something much worse, and that is knowing the truth, but not being able to experience the joy, and comfort it brings. Have you ever in your life knew something you knew was right to do, but you did not do it? And after ward you suffered the consequences of your inactions, and every time you thought about it, or saw something that reminded you of it you would kick yourself or wish you had done it? That is called torment... Thank God when we miss up we can confess our sin before God, and forgives us, then cleanses us from all unrighteousness.
There is a day coming in which every knee shall bow, and ever tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father. Right now when someone says that they become born again, but in that time when every body confesses Jesus as Lord it will be to late! Condemnation will not come from God, but every ones own conscience will torment them for not doing what they knew was right. That is the outcome of all who reject the truth today.

Curtis

every ones own conscience will torment them for not doing what they knew was right. That is the outcome of all who reject the truth today.
My Indian friends will convert to Christianity as quickly as you convert to Hinduism. For them, Christianity is not right and their consciences are at peace.

My Indian friends will convert to Christianity as quickly as you convert to Hinduism. For them, Christianity is not right and their consciences are at peace.

Lets ask them after they learn the real truth of who Jesus Christ is.

Lets ask them after they learn the real truth of who Jesus Christ is.
You're wielding His name like a cudgel.

You're wielding His name like a cudgel.

I think that is what we are suppose to do... right?

I think that is what we are suppose to do....right?
Ummmm, no.

WG

Well if many good people of other faiths don't have to accept Jesus as their savior... it sounds more like universalisim than christianity to me.

By the way.. thanks for fixing my post. You may do that ANYtime. Forgot to tell you that. :)

WG

well if many good people of other faiths don't have to accept Jesus as their savior...it sounds more like universalisim than christianity to me.
That's not what I said.

I correct only egregious spelling errors.

WG,

Egregious? Lol OK

Well from what I can understand from your posts you do not believe a devout Hindu needs to accept Jesus in order to be with the Father. What am I not understanding?

Ok. Let me ask you this.. What must a person do to be saved?

What must a person do to be saved?
What does being saved mean?

WG

Actually the word in the Greek ( I am sure you already know) is sozo. And it means saved in every way a person can be saved. But to be specific I would like to know how you think a person is saved from perishing in his sins after he dies.

But to be specific I would like to know how you think a person is saved from perishing in his sins after he dies.
I have no idea what that means.

WG,

Sure you do.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him should not PERISH BUT HAVE EVERYLASTING LIFE.

The verse lets us know that those that don't believe in him perish and do not have everlasting Life.

The verse lets us know that those that don't believe in him perish and do not have everlasting Life.
What does "perish" mean?

Actually the word in the Greek ( I am sure you already know) is sozo. And it means saved in every way a person can be saved.

Not so. That's a common teaching from teachers who know a smattering about the language, and it's wrong. It means "rescue." Sometimes it means rescue from peril, sometimes it means "rescue" in the sense of "salvation" of the soul, sometimes it means "rescue" in the sense of helping reconcile people having a feud. Like similar English words, it means different things in different contexts.

This is one of my pet peeves. Ultra-Evangelical "scholars" have been over-translating Greek for decades, and the language just won't hold all the water they want to pour into it. It's a practice that needs to stop because it's not doing anybody any good (except making money for the guys who write the books about it).

WG

Everlasting destruction. What do you think it means?

Dave,

Ok. Good to know. Thanks

WG

everlasting destruction. What do you think it means?
You really want to send everyone to your hell!

"Perish" can refer to quality of life here on earth.

You really want to send everyone to your hell!

"Perish" can refer to quality of life here on earth.

There is one thing we can know for sure, if life is good, then to perish is very bad. I would not want to try it out myself.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

WG,

I don't want to send anyone to hell. Neither does the Lord, that is the reason he died. It is part of the gospel.. GOOD NEWS. We don't have to go there.

There have been plenty of good Christians who have lived a hard horrible life. A hell on earth. How can you explain that? There are plenty of ungodly people who live wonderful lives. It rains on the just and unjust here on earth.

There have been plenty of good Christians who have lived a hard horrible life. A hell on earth. How can you explain that? There are plenty of ungodly people who live wonderful lives. It rains on the just and unjust here on earth.
There are a lot of Christians who live lives in which they sin over and over again. "Lord, I believe. Help thou mine unbelief." And a lot of non-Christians who live loving, joyous lives that outdo many Christians.

WG

True. But it has got nothing to do with eternity.

WG

True. But it has got nothing to do with eternity.
Guess there won't be many people in heaven.

WG

I believe His grace is far bigger than we think it is and the gospel is so simple there will be more people in heaven than we can imagine. Having said that... being saved from an eternity in hell is what the bible preaches and there isn't any way around it.


He will take revenge on those who refuse to acknowledge God and on those who refuse to respond to the Good News about our Lord Jesus. 2 thess. 1:8

And in some versions of the bible it reads:
In flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord

WG

I believe His grace is far bigger than we think it is and the gospel is so simple there will be more people in heaven than we can imagine.
Including Hindus and Muslims? And the mentally ill who have murdered?

Including Hindus and Muslims? and the mentally ill who have murdered?

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

There will be no Hindus,Muslims, or any as such in God's Kingdom. Maybe there were some who were at one time, but not now.

There will be no Hindus,Muslims, or any as such in God's Kingdom. Maybe there were some who were at one time, but not now.
So only born again Christians will be there.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

There will be no Hindus,Muslims, or any as such in God's Kingdom. Maybe there were some who were at one time, but not now.

I have no idea how on earth you managed to read that into the passage you quoted, since the two have nothing to do with each other.

and in some versions of the bible it reads:
In flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord

Of course, both Jesus and Peter also described it as outer darkness, a place of darkness, and Peter spoke of chains. So if this fire is literal, it apparently doesn't produce any light. Or perhaps (gasp!) it's all metaphorical, trying to describe the indescribable.

WG,

According to the bible the ONLY people who will be in heaven this side of the cross are those who have called on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to save them. It doesn't matter if it is on death bed or in life... but they are the ONLY ones in heaven. These are not my thoughts but rather what the Lord says in his word.

Dave,

Or maybe it is a real place that has flaming fire which causes no light. I can't explain it but hen I can't explain a God in three persons.. I believe it by faith.

WG,

according to the bible the ONLY people who will be in heaven this side of the cross are those who have called on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to save them. It doesn't matter if it is on death bed or in life...but they are the ONLY ones in heaven. These are not my thoughts but rather what the Lord says in his word.
So they will be rattling around in all that space in heaven.

Wg,

? I don't know what that means.

Wg,

? I don't know what that means.
By your definition, there are very few who will qualify.

WG,

MY definition? Wow... not mine at all. I said before his grace is bigger than we think. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if somehow someway the Lord was able to reach a person between the moment the person leaves their body to enter enternity. I don't have proof nor do I have scripture to back my belief... I just know my Jesus.

I said before his grace is bigger than we think.
Well, now. You are finally coming around to my way of thinking. Never build fences around God or squish Him into a box of your own making.

WG,

I don't have proof of that and I can't back it up. I just really believe in his grace and mercy. He isn't willing that any should perish, and I think he will do everything to save someone. He has proved his love for us. BUT Jesus is the one that said he was the ONLY way to the Father. I haven't put God in a box or squished him. But NO ONE is going to be there without calling out to HIM and that is just a fact of the bible.

Behold now is the accepted time, behold NOW is the day of salvation. I do not think anyone to wait to see if the Lord will meet them between death of the body and the beginning of eternity for the soul and spirit. I just wouldn't be surprised to find out that Jesus did everything to reach people.

John 14:6.

Jesus said ". Behold , I am the way , the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the father but by me.

Note he said THE way , THE truth and THE life. There is no other way , there is no other truth and there is no other ( eternal ) life.

And than... NO man cometh unto the father but by ME.

Speaking to all of mankind , no man will see God in heaven unless he accepts Jesus as his Saviour first.

This is all done on Gods terms , not by any person. From the Pope to the thief on the cross ( who accepted Jesus with a very short time left to live) , we all are sinners and are not good enough on our own to reach heaven.

Romans 3:10. There is none righteous , no not one. We are born with a sin nature.

You never have to teach any child ( or adult) how to do bad things. They do that naturally. But you do have to teach , teach and teach again for them to do the right thing.

As Christians why would we just assume anybody and everybody is going to go to Heaven? It's not just about Christ's atonement... it's about our choice. The two go hand in hand. Yes, He paid the price for everyone, but that doesn't mean everyone receives it. There are many that reject it.

We're not the ones saying that Heaven will be relatively empty... JESUS said it...

Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

John 14:6.

Jesus said ". Behold , I am the way , the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the father but by me.

Note he said

.

Mcsap (and others) - you continually claim that Jesus SAID, or God SAID, but you have no way of knowing what Jesus or God SAID.

What you DO have is a collection of about 70 books written by as many authors over maybe 5-600 years, often contradictory, from which you presume to quote Jesus and/or God.

Do you have a special revelation? Do you have Jesus' voice on tape? I doubt it. Perhaps you should modify your absoluteness with something like "I believe". Your credibility would be enhanced by your honesty in this matter.

Unlike you, other Christians here, who are just as Christian as you, struggle to understand what the Bible says/means in light of language, culture, the times, and other factors. They use their God-given faculties of mind to wrestle out meaning and do their best to avoid being trapped in a prison of mindless word-for-word literalness.

Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself. Everything else is a footnote.

Curtis,

Not sure I even understand what that means exactly. You are big into this earthly view and heavenly view. I understand that there are spirtual truths that we should study and comprehend. Exactly how do you suggest a person exercise his spirtual senses. I don't think that you are wrong so much as I don't get your point.

Ok, that was weird... that post to curtis should be in another thread. Can you fix that WG?

ATHOS

Oh my how I have missed you. When will I be receiving my reddie. I haven't had one since the last time you stop by these threads. Ha ha... seriously though, back off mcsap. He/she is new here. I believe every word in the bible by faith even if I don't understand it and I am betting that Mcsap does to. Nothing wrong with that. I believe it by faith because without faith it is impossible to please God. If he can create a universe from nothing.. I am not to worried about him preserving his Word to us.

If you have faith in God , you will then learn that the entire Bible ( while written by MANY different men over a long period of time) was inspired by God. Sure , Matthew , Mark , Luke and John each wrote a book but they were doing based upon God given direction.

You eithe believe that the entire Bible is " God breathed" or you don't. Again , just like the choice to accept or refuse the free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ... believing in the word of God is just as important.

2 Timothy 3:16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine , for reproof , for correction for instruction in righteous.

God is big enough to accomplish this. Our minds have such a hard time understanding how anyone could ever do this. And our minds are right on this one. It isn't man , it is Almighty God. We cannot begin to understand everything there is to know about God. He was , is and will be.

No other " diety " voluntarily came to earth as a lowly man. Was born of a woman but was not fathered by a man. Grew up as a child and became a man. Spent 3 years preaching and teaching , performing miracles and changing lives. He was falsely accused and was executed as a perfectly innocent man. But he wasn't just a man. He was as much God as he was a man and he was as much a man as he was a God.

He was God robed in human flesh. He knew that none of us were perfect and that none of us could join him in heaven due to our sin. No man could ever pay of his own sins much less those of all of the world. He then offered himself as a living sacrifice to pay for our sins with his blood.

He died as a man but was resurrected on he third day and now is preparing a place for those who love him and have accepted him. He has also prepared a place for those who don't love him and reject him.

A great book on this is titled " Evidence that demands a verdict".

Jesus IS the ONLY way to God.

Not Hindu , Bhuddist , Muslim etc. Not Baptist , Methodist , Presbyterian etc. Going to a church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than standing in a garage will make you a car. It is a personal decision based on your acknowledgement that you are a sinner , that you cannot ever save yourself and that you want Jesus to come into your life and wash away your sins with his blood.

It is that easy. Yet it must be sincere and works are an evidence of faith. One cannot claim to be saved on Thursday and than go back to their same sun filled life on Friday with no apparent inner or outer change. Not everyone gets " hit with a bolt of lightning" but to accept the Lord will result in the Holy Spirit living in you and you will suddenly have a guilty conscience when you sin.

You just won't find your old lifestyle to be so much fun anymore.

God has a plan for everyone who accepts him. He wants nobody to perish in eternity but his justice does not allow sin to remain in his presence. Choosing to reject him in this life means you will suffer permanently in the next. But , God still gives you the choice to do what YOU want to do.

Choose wisely.


Just Jesus who died on the cross and is eagerly waiting for you to accept his free gift.

Though off the subject of 'eternal death', the 'Evidence that Demands a Verdict Books (Vol. 1 and 2) are great. I think you're bring a lot of good stuff to the table here Mcsap.

You eithe believe that the entire Bible is " God breathed" or you don't.
Wow. What's the view like from that simplistic world of yours? There are a lot of us here, myself included, who have spent our lives wrestling with the difficult questions about the Bible, including the ones that Athos raised. Including the question of those who have never heard. Including the apparent contradictions, anachronisms, textually uncertain passages and all the rest that goes into biblical scholarship. I pray that you learn a little more about real interaction with the Bible before God brings you to your crisis point. Because as things stand right now, when you reach that point, your faith won't be ready for it.

Wow. What's the view like from that simplistic world of yours? There are a lot of us here, myself included, who have spent our lives wrestling with the difficult questions about the Bible, including the ones that Athos raised. Including the question of those who have never heard. Including the apparent contradictions, anachronisms, textually uncertain passages and all the rest that goes into biblical scholarship. I pray that you learn a little more about real interaction with the Bible before God brings you to your crisis point. Because as things stand right now, when you reach that point, your faith won't be ready for it.

Really? The person is new here. He/she doesn't understand that being a fundalmentalist is prohibited and ridiculed here. At least wait a few more post to pounce... just saying.

When someone receives a revelation from God the father of who Jesus is, and then they confess Jesus Christ as Lord, they become born again. At that moment they receive a new heart, born of the incorruptible seed of the Word of God. A new nature that is different from before, with new senses that can contact the spiritual world. In exactly the same way as your physical senses contact the physical world. But these senses need to be exercised to be able to discern good and evil. A new born baby does not know how to control there arms, legs, vision (senses). It takes time to to learn, and exercise these things. After awhile they get very good at controlling them. It is no different for a new born Christian, to do like wise. The Apostle Paul in the Book of Hebrews says the same thing,

Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

If we never exercise these spiritual senses then apathy sets in, and then the only thing that is real to you is what your 5 physical senses tell you. The Kingdom of God then becomes just something way out in the bye and bye, something that will happen in the future. This is nothing new, we should have learned these things along time ago. But it is still not to late to begin now. We have the ability to see, taste, feel, hear, touch his Kingdom today. Lets lay hold upon eternal life.

Curtis

There are many that reject it.
If you were born into a Hindu or Muslim family/culture, would you convert to Christianity?

Curtis,

I actually meant my response to you to be in another thread... I don't know what happened. I will respond to this post in your other thread.

Just Jesus who died on the cross and is eagerly waiting for you to accept his free gift.
Meanwhile, rhetorically speaking, what are you doing to show God's unconditional love to others?

Really? the person is new here. He/she doesn't understand that being a fundalmentalist is prohibited and ridiculed here. At least wait a few more post to pounce...just sayin.
I used to be one. I finally got past the milk and into the meat of the Word.

When someone receives a revelation from God the father of who Jesus is, and then they confess Jesus Christ as Lord, they become born again.
Apparently you don't believe in infant baptism.

Really? the person is new here. He/she doesn't understand that being a fundalmentalist is prohibited and ridiculed here. At least wait a few more post to pounce...just sayin.
Um, no. For one thing, the new person should by now have perused the board enough to know what's going on. For another, I never said anything was "prohibited and ridiculed," and I did neither. I meant every word. And lastly, there are those of us who have poured our life's blood into studying the language, setting, context and everything else about the Bible for multiple decades, wrestling with those questions I mentioned and doing our best to maintain intellectual honesty. The suggestion that it's all nothing more than a matter of steps A, B and C to do whatever, and you either believe or you don't, is a slap in the face to our life's work. And I meant every word of my prayer for him/her. Because it WILL happen, and unless s/he really starts to understand the incredible grayness that permeates our Bible, s/he WILL stumble, and possibly fall. I prefer not to see that happen to anyone. Hence my heartfelt warning. I'm not getting my nose out of joint over the slap in my face; I'm big and ugly enough to deal with that. But I've seen first-hand what happens when that nice little house of cards gets blown over. It ain't a pretty sight, and I'd rather not see anybody else have to go through it.

Apparently, you don't believe in infant baptism.

How can a baby understand who Jesus is? I do believe in dedicating infants to the Lord. There comes a time in everyone's life where they become cognitive to the things of God, at what age that is probably different to every individual. No one can confess Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Um, no. For one thing, the new person should by now have perused the board enough to know what's going on. For another, I never said anything was "prohibited and ridiculed," and I did neither. I meant every word. And lastly, there are those of us who have poured our life's blood into studying the language, setting, context and everything else about the Bible for multiple decades, wrestling with those questions I mentioned and doing our best to maintain intellectual honesty. The suggestion that it's all nothing more than a matter of steps A, B and C to do whatever, and you either believe or you don't, is a slap in the face to our life's work. And I meant every word of my prayer for him/her. Because it WILL happen, and unless s/he really starts to understand the incredible grayness that permeates our Bible, s/he WILL stumble, and possibly fall. I prefer not to see that happen to anyone. Hence my heartfelt warning. I'm not getting my nose out of joint over the slap in my face; I'm big and ugly enough to deal with that. But I've seen first-hand what happens when that nice little house of cards gets blown over. It ain't a pretty sight, and I'd rather not see anybody else have to go through it.

Please Dave, in WHAT world is this comment not ridicule?:

"Wow. What's the view like from that simplistic world of yours?"

I don't believe the bible is gray. Many people don't. Deal with it.

I am peacefully and respectfully telling you of how God sent Jesus to die for YOU. God didn't have to do any such thing. He created us to be free moral agents , not robots.

As a Christian , it is my duty to tell of what God has done for all of mankind through Jesus. It is not my desire or intent to force you to do anything you don't want to do. Becoming a Christian has to be something you WANT to do.

No love of any kind can be forced on another person or it isn't true love. There are no threats , no arguments , no name calling , no ridiculing , no air of superiority. Just my words about a loving creator God who wants you to accept his son so that you can spend eternity with him.

God will accept ANYONE no matter what they have done if they truly repent. God doesn't care what you have done or what kind of life you have lived. He offers his free gift of salvation to anyone who will simply accept it.

My desire is to witness to any and all that will listen and trust that some will consider what God has to offer to them.

How can a baby understand who Jesus is? I do believe in dedicating infants to the Lord. There comes a time in everyones life where they become cognitive to the things of God, at what age that is probably different to every individual. No one can confess Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
So the Holy Spirit is incapable of working faith in a baby's heart?

Maybe it's just me... but I think the last few pages of posts have gotten away from the subject of eternal judgement and more so on attacking eachother's beliefs and interpretations of scripture.

There is much that's been said I agree with and disagree with, but it's not necessarily furthering the specific subject at hand anymore.

Because it WILL happen, and unless s/he really starts to understand the incredible grayness that permeates our Bible, s/he WILL stumble, and possibly fall. I prefer not to see that happen to anyone. Hence my heartfelt warning. I'm not getting my nose out of joint over the slap in my face; I'm big and ugly enough to deal with that. But I've seen first-hand what happens when that nice little house of cards gets blown over. It ain't a pretty sight, and I'd rather not see anybody else have to go through it.
Ben there, done that. Grew up in a fundamentalist/evangelical/ultra conservative home where all things Bible were either black or white. I stumbled when I left home for college, and fall I did. My house of cards went tumbling. Years later, I am finally at peace with what I believe.

>Moved to Religious Discussions<

Carry on!

So the Holy Spirit is incapable of working faith in a baby's heart?

The Holy Spirit does work in an infants heart, but for them to understand it, no.
Understanding is the key to faith,

Mat 13:19 People hear the message about the kingdom but do not understand it. Then the evil one comes. He steals what was planted in their hearts. Those people are like the seed planted on a path.

You can not have faith without understanding, which = "Wisdom"

I am peacefully and respectfully telling you .......

As a Christian ,....... It is not my desire or intent to force you to do anything you don't want to do.

There are no threats , no arguments , no name calling , no ridiculing , no air of superiority..



Mcsap, do you ever read what you write? It is not your intent to force anyone, etc. There are no threats,. etc.

Yet, from the other side of your mouth, we are condemned to hell if we don't buy into what you are selling.

You are living in bizarro world. And you're completely oblivious to your own self-delusion.

Take a step back, read a book, say a prayer (ask God for guidance), and take two aspirin.

WG.

Because you reasoned it out in your mind. You can't back your thoughts up with scripture. Am I right? I am not trying to be rude but.. come ON. I believe that the Lord Jesus is so full of grace he will do /go above and beyond to get someone to accept him. However I can't back that up. I can say he isn't willing that anyone should perish. I can KNOW him personally. But that isn't the gospel. Our personal thoughts is NOT what we represent to the world. We have ONLY the Word of God. The word of God says that Jesus is the ONLY way.. not A way.

The Holy Spirit does work in an infants heart
And that's why I believe in infant baptism.

The understanding develops as the child develops. That's why there are sponsors or godparents, to help the parents as they raise the child and teach him.

WG.

because you reasoned it out in your mind
Huh? I never said that.

And that's why I believe in infant baptism.

The understanding develops as the child develops. That's why there are sponsors or godparents, to help the parents as they raise the child and teach him.

But that's not what baptism is about. Until a person receives Christ's atonement, there is no purpose for baptism. It's a symbolic death and resurrection with Christ... and not something an infant, or even a young child has the ability to understand. Though Christianity isn't so much about reason, it is about a choice... and children aren't held to that choice until they are at an age of accountability... which obviously will differ from child to child as they mentally develop.

WG.

No you didn't. But you can't back your beliefs up with scripture either.

If Jesus says he is the ONLY way to the father.. how can a hindu come to him?

So the Holy Spirit is incapable of working faith in a baby's heart?

It isn't that the Holy Spirit is incapable. Rather it is the free will that God gives man. To believe that infant baptism converts the baby into being a Christian would mean that God forces himself upon the child.

In order to become a Christian , the person has to freely and voluntarily accept Jesus as his Saviour. Baptism is also a command to Christians but like accepting Jesus , it is voluntary. It is not a requirement to be saved. The thief on the cross accepted Jesus but of course , wasn't baptized.

I do absolutely agree with infant dedication though. Christian parents are certainly encouraged to publicly dedicate their children to God. That doesn't mean the child will become a Christian or even live a good life. That small child will someday make his / her own decision whether to accept the free gift of salvation.

Maybe it's just me...but I think the last few pages of posts have gotten away from the subject of eternal judgement and moreso on attacking eachother's beliefs and interpretations of scripture.

There is much that's been said I agree with and disagree with, but it's not necessarily furthering the specific subject at hand anymore.

Good point, haunting helper. I'm at fault. I do tend to get carried away with the fundamentalists. I know they hold their beliefs strongly, but I'll never understand how they're so insistent on hellfire for those who believe differently. Other than that, I respect and admire their strong faith in a world that drifts further and further away from basic decency.

Anyway, my apologies

.

Mcsap, do you ever read what you write? It is not your intent to force anyone, etc. There are no threats, .... etc.

Yet, from the other side of your mouth, we are condemned to hell if we don't buy into what you are selling.

You are living in bizarro world. And you're completely oblivious to your own self-delusion.

Take a step back, read a book, say a prayer (ask God for guidance), and take two aspirin.

Sorry Athos , it isn't what I say , it is what God says.

God created man.

God gave man free will.

God offers a free gift of salvation through Jesus.

Man can accept or reject this.

God wants man to accept his gift of eternal life but does not force himself upon us.

God says that we are not righteous. Our righteousness is as filthy rags. We simply are not good enough.

God sent Jesus to die IN OUR PLACE because the wages of sin is (eternal ) death.

God loves us. He WANTS you to accept this gift.

But he is just and requires a payment for our sins. That payment is satisfied through accepting Jesus.

If you choose to reject this gift , you CANNOT spend eternity with God.

You then will spend eternity WITHOUT GOD.

Matthew 25:41. Depart from me ye accursed Into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. This isn't a threat , but rather it is a warning.

A warning from the word of God , not from me. I am just repeating it.

To believe that infant baptism converts the baby into being a Christian
Who said that infant baptism does that? No one I know does.

WG.

no you didn't. but you can't back your beliefs up with scripture either.
And my beliefs are what?

WG,

You tell me. You don't state exactly what you believe but you IMPLY you believe people who do not accept Christ end up with the Father.

WG,

you tell me. You don't state exactly what you believe but you IMPLY you believe people who do not accept Christ end up with the Father.
I don't know what that means.

WG..

Okie dokie... read your own posts. THEN let me know what you believe.

WG..

Okie dokie...read your own posts. THEN let me know what you believe.
*read my own posts*

Love God and love your neighbor as yourself.

Don't fence God in. He's a lot bigger than we could ever imagine.

Don't judge. That belongs to God.

WG

OK... what do you do with this verse... I am the way the truth and the live no man comes to the father but by me. John 14:6

How about this one? For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but has everlasting life. John 3:16

It isn't a matter of judging. It is what it is. Either a person accepts Jesus or they don't. It isn't a judgement.. it is a choice.

WG

ok...what do you do with this verse.... I am the way the truth and the live no man comes to the father but by me. John 14:6

How bout this one? For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but has everlasting life. John 3:16

It isn't a matter of judging. It is what it is. either a person accepts Jesus or they don't. It isn't a judgement..it is a choice.
Check back with me in heaven and we will see who made the cut. I'll be in the celestial kitchen baking brownies.

God is full of mercy, He does not send His creation to hell, unfortunally people who don't accept Him send themselves there. There are very few people that can say they have never heard of the Bible, the word of God, we all know there is a God, because we live in His creation, and we are His creation. God is love, He is not this man pointing the finger at us judging us, if we turn our ways and have a sincere hearth He will never turn us away. It is important to understand that there is a heaven and a hell, whether some choose to believe it or not, there is. This path called life will come to an en one day, and what is at the end depends on the relationship we have with Christ today. I choose to believe in His word, believe in what He has done in my life, therefore I believe too that there is a heaven where if we choose to believe in Him, we will be in all eternity, and If I believe that,I also believe that there is a Hell, the choice is ours, and we have to make that decision here on hearrth, not after we are dead. God Bless

You say this a lot, but it isn't strictly true. What it actually means is, your particular interpretation of the Bible said it. You are fond of interpreting Revelation literally, something it was never meant to be, so the actual issue is this: when we take John's writings the way HE meant them to be taken, the GWT and lake of fire are metaphors, not literal events or places. Metaphors for what? That's the big question. But as usual, taking apocalyptic literature and trying to interpret it literally just leads to a mess.

I think you are incorrect. The Bible are not to be "interpreted" at all. Why? There aren't any metaphors to BE interpreted! (God does use some metaphhors, yes; but He explains them most of the time, and when He doen't exactly, don't think about it too hard... our human minds will NEVER come up with the proper "interpretation") The entire Bible is the LITERAL Word of God and is to be taken Literally. Everything in Revelation is going to happen the exact way it says it will. I don't know what version others out there are using, but mine is the living Word of God in the KJV form. And even the NIV and a few others say basically the same thing.
Don't be a doubting Thomas too long. Since all the happenings in Revelation are in the future, and I believe the very near future, doubt for "too long" will become "too late". And NO ONE will want to be around here during the Tribulation. The Bible says that "men will seek death" in that time on Earth.
Sorry, but there WILL be a Great White Throne Judgement and there WILL be an eternal Lake of Fire where all unbelievers will dwell with the devil, his angels, and the Antichrist. Praise God I will not be at either!

I think you are incorrect. The Bible are not to be "interpreted" at all. Why? There aren't any metaphors to BE interpreted!
The OT is full of metaphors and allegories.

Revelation is over and done with. It was written for a certain time and purpose. It almost didn't make the cut exactly beause of that.

I have no idea how on earth you managed to read that into the passage you quoted, since the two have nothing to do with each other.

I see where she's coming from! They have everything to do with each other! Both Hindus and Muslims are idoleters. One of the first listed in that verse in I Cor.
"Thou shalt have NO other gods before me" Exodus (Ten Commandments) Hmmm.. and what is Allah?
"O Lord.....thou art God alone!" Psalm 87:10
"For I am God, and there is NONE else" Isaiah 45:22
See the connection?

The OT is full of metaphors and allegories.

Revelation is over and done with. It was written for a certain time and purpose. It almost didn't make the cut exactly beause of that.

No it is not!
If it was over, I wouldn't be here, and either you wouldn't be here either or you'd WISH you weren't!

Of course, both Jesus and Peter also described it as outer darkness, a place of darkness, and Peter spoke of chains. So if this fire is literal, it apparently doesn't produce any light. Or perhaps (gasp!) it's all metaphorical, trying to describe the indescribable.

I know,I'm posting a lot. But adjust, please. Here's a bit of science to add to your critisism: Consider a candle or camp fire. The flames are mainly yellow and orange on the outer edges. In the inner flame, it is blue. Scientists have experimented - the hotter the flame, the darker it is. So it is NOT metaphorical. The flames will be soooo utterly hot, that they will be black. IN other words - it'll be dark. (OOPS! Sorry - no metaphor there either!)

No it is not!
If it was over, I wouldn't be here, and either you wouldn't be here either or you'd WISH you weren't!
Trust me. Nothing is going to happen. It already happened a couple of thousand years ago.

It mine is the living Word of God in the KJV form. !

What is it about the King James Version that you people are so obsessed with? Do you ever think about that?

Beautiful language? Without a doubt. True to the original writings? Not hardly.

Consider what a non-literal translation of the Bible does to your insistence on the literal-ness of your reading. Are you channeling God - or King James?

Athos,

Really? "you people"... smh. I know it is late but I am in NO mood for your nasty comments. If this is the best you have... take it elsewhere. Unless of course you can answer the OP's question according to the bible... OH.. thats right.. you don't know it. You just know how to put Christians down. I keep forgetting that.

Athos,

Really? "you people".... smh. I know it is late but I am in NO mood for your nasty comments. If this is the best you have...take it elsewhere. Unless of course you can answer the OP's question according to the bible...OH..thats right..you don't know it. You just know how to put Christians down. I keep forgetting that.
He knows it far better than most Christians, even me.

Consider what he says, not how he says it.

What is it about the King James Version that you people are so obsessed with? Do you ever think about that?

Beautiful language? Without a doubt. True to the original writings? Not hardly.

Consider what a non-literal translation of the Bible does to your insistence on the literal-ness of your reading. Are you channeling God - or King James?

WOW! Why are YOU obsessed with knocking down fundamenalists?
I have read multiple versions of Scripture and I've studies enough Greek/hebrew to know the KJV is the most accurate. I'm not obsessed with the KJV. I am not channeling King James. I AM obsessed with God however. His awesomness captivates me! I want the most accurate version out there.

And I believe the verse was quoted earlier about "my ways are not your ways, neither my thoughts your thoughts". If our thoughts can not be like that of God's, He wouldn't have left the interpreting to us! So, since we cannot think like God, He did not leave us to interpret His meaning, and thus, we can take literal meanings. I said earlier, God does give metaphors that He usually gives a clear understanding of. If we read the Word and then interpret it to our liking, it is no longer God's Word with God's meaning, but man's.

Thanks Classy!
And WG, I've considered both... I don't like either the words or the way. Something tells me, we all need to go to bed. I feel bad for the guy who made the original post!

He usually gives a clear understanding of. If we read the Word and then interpret it to our liking, it is no longer God's Word with God's meaning, but man's.
You believe God created in six 24-hour days?

Trust me. Nothing is going to happen. It already happened a couple of thousand years ago.

Sorry Sweetheart! I'm totally dogmatic on this one! But I will ask, if Revelation happened, what are we doing here now? What is our purpose? Why is there evil in this world? In the end of Revelation, there is a New Heaven and a New Earth - both perfect- in existence. Was there then a Second Fall of Man that we don't know about? (Think a minute... don't answer too quickly)

You believe God created in six 24-hour days?

YES! Definitely! He IS God, after all, right?
Think about the Creation:
Day 1: Light and darkness
D 2: The heavens - sky
D3: Dry land and plants
D4: Sun, moon, and stars
D5: Fish and birds
D6: Land animals and man

My point:
The plants were created before the Sun. A plant without sunlight could last a day, but really? A plant must have sunlight. If it had taken God eons to create everything, the plants would have died.

Besides, if He couldn't create the world in 6 literal 24 hour days, what makes Him God?

Sorry Sweetheart! I'm totally dogmatic on this one! But I will ask, if Revelation happened, what are we doing here now? What is our purpose? Why is there evil in this world? In the end of Revelation, there is a New Heaven and a New Earth - both perfect- in existence. Was there then a Second Fall of Man that we don't know about? (Think a minute...don't answer too quickly)
I'm not your sweetheart.

What we are doing here now is loving God and treating our neighbors as ourselves, doing our best to love them as God does. Evil exists because God gave man a free will, and man messed up big time. We are still living under the First Fall and waiting for the Last Day.

Consider what he says, not how he says it.

Knowledge and wisdom from God are two different things. You go on ahead and consider what he has to say. As far as I am concerned his contempt for christains of this board and for the Word of God, leaves anything he has to contribute null and void in my mind. Sorry.

I'm not your sweetheart.

What we are doing here now is loving God and treating our neighbors as ourselves, doing our best to love them as God does. Evil exists because God gave man a free will, and man messed up big time. We are still living under the First Fall and waiting for the Last Day.

Sorry - I call people "sweetheart" and "dear" all the time. I'll try to refrain from doing that to you.

I don't understand you exactly. The above statements are totally true. You are right. But those statements, and the belief that Revelation already happened, contradict each other. The Last Day is spoken of in Revelation. You said Revelation already happened, but apparently the Last Day hasn't? And what about the New Earth? Also, in Revelation, Satan is throne into the Lake of Fire... why then is there still evil in this world? Satan is the "father of lies" , the first murderer, and the father of all evil. If Revelation was over, Satan and all other evil doers would be done away with, and the present Earth would be perfect.

You must decide: either 1) Revelation happened and the world we live in is perfect; or
2) The world is still evil, suffering from the First Fall, and Revelation is still to come.
You can't mix and match!

Sorry - I call people "sweetheart" and "dear" all the time. I'll try to refrain from doing that to you.
I took it as a put-down.

I don't understand you exactly. The above statements are totally true. You are right. But those statements, and the belief that Revelation already happened, contradict each other. The Last Day is spoken of in Revelation. You said Revelation already happened, but apparently the Last Day hasn't?
No. Jesus will return on the Last Day.

And what about the New Earth?
No New Earth that I know of. This earth will disappear when Jesus returns. Are you a Witness?

Also, in Revelation, the Satan is throne into the Lake of Fire... why then is there still evil in this world?
throne = something a king sits on
thrown = tossed aside

There is evil in this world because Jesus hasn't returned yet. We are still in the End Times.

Satan is the "father of lies" , the first murderer, and the father of all evil. If Revelation was over, Satan and all other evil doers would be done away with, and the present Earth would be perfect.
Revelation was written in code and for a much earlier audience of readers. The Roman Empire is gone, thus Revelation has been fulfilled.

You must decide: either 1) Revelation happened and the world we live in is perfect; or 2) The world is still evil, suffering from the Fall, and Revelation is still to come. You can't mix and match!
#2. How could one not say the world is still evil? And Revelation's day has come and gone.

Curtis,

According to the bible in Revelation anyone who rejects the gospel is cast in the lake of fire forever and ever.

I think this may be out of context to the question being asked. Revelations is about the end of times and not the times we live in. If someone has rejected God throughout their life there is still a chance for redemption in the after life when Jesus will rise again. That will be the time of judgement and not before that time.

Cdad,

From what I can tell that passage I was referring to happens in the future. At the Great White throne judgement. I never meant to imply otherwise. How is that out of context with the question asked. I am confused. I think I answered it.

Also be very very careful about putting an S on Revelation. WG really doesn't like it... it is an honest mistake because I did it and I know better. But she is a stickler. Ha

Also be very very careful about putting an S on Revelation. WG really doesn't like it...it is an honest mistake because I did it and i know better. But she is a stickler. ha
Cdad is one of my favorites, so I forgive him. But CURTIS put an s on it!! Horrors! Maybe he is oppressed!! Or possessed?

Cdad is one of my favorites, so I forgive him. But CURTIS put an s on it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Horrors! Maybe he is oppressed!!!!! or possessed?

Actually putting the "S" on Revelation gets under my skin as well as it kind of twists the meaning of the whole book. It's not a book filled with "relvelations" about the future. It's a book about the Revelation of Jesus Christ as the soon coming eternal King.

And of course anyone who thinks otherwise is possessed... or oppressed... haven't figured it out yet ;)

And of course anyone who thinks otherwise is possessed...or oppressed...haven't figured it out yet ;)
Since it is snowing here to beat the band, I will agree I am oppressed (not possessed--yet).

Same here!

The Catholic faith (the only one I can really speak of with any knowledge) teaches that when one knows the truth of Christianity and then rejects it, will go to hell. Many people fall into the category of never knowing. And so, contrary to popular belief, Catholics do not believe that all non-Catholics go to hell.

In other words, once people know God and know the truth of His presence, they can choose to accept Him and do their best to live per his will, or they can choose to reject him. It is that conscious act of rejection that condemns the individual.

The church also offers reconciliation for when we do fail - we forget or make a self-serving decision that disrespects Him and His will for us, we can ask and be forgiven, and return to a state of grace.

Wg and HH-

Ha ha... your comments made me laugh. It is snowing here too. That ONLY means I will be on askme ALL day tomorrow. Lol... depressing thought to many. :)

dontknownuthin,

Now see, I believe the LORD JESUS offers reconciliation for the believer that falls. It is personal and has nothing to do with the church. Well, that is what I believe the bible says anyway.

Cdad,

From what I can tell that passage I was referring to happens in the future. At the Great White throne judgement. I never meant to imply otherwise. How is that out of context with the question asked. I am confused. I think i answered it.

Also be very very careful about putting an S on Revelation. WG really doesn't like it...it is an honest mistake because I did it and i know better. But she is a stickler. ha

Maybe Im looking at it wrong but here is my thinking on it. Having lived a life and not accepting God then your soul is not doomed until the day of judgement. So there is a chance for redemption and salvation and it is after that point where casting into the lake of fire takes place.

So what I am saying and thinking on this is that there is a second chance at acceptance. As you said - in the future.

cdad,

I hear your heart. God is NOT willing any should perish. I believe God's grace is far bigger than we think.

After a person rejects the Lord Jesus Christ and is waiting for the Great White Throne judgement... I'm not seeing any hope. If I am wrong please feel free to enlighten me.Give me scripture if you can.

I have tried to make it clear that the Lord Jesus who IS the epitome of Grace will do everything he has to to reach people. I believe that because I KNOW HIM and because he is LOVE. He isn't willing ANY should perish. However we must come to terms with the fact, there are going to be those who reject him. Certainly Judas did. It is a choice. TODAY it is a choice... I don't think ANYone should put off the question... What will YOU do with the Christ? It begs and answer.

cdad,

I hear your heart. God is NOT willing any should perish. I believe God's grace is far bigger than we think.

After a person rejects the Lord Jesus Christ and is waiting for the Great White Throne judgement...I'm not seeing any hope. If I am wrong please feel free to enlighten me.Give me scripture if you can.

I have tried to make it clear that the Lord Jesus who IS the epitome of Grace will do everything he has to to reach people. I believe that because I KNOW HIM and because he is LOVE. He isn't willing ANY should perish. However we must come to terms with the fact, there are going to be those who reject him. Certainly Judas did. It is a choice. TODAY it is a choice....i don't think ANYone should put off the question...What will YOU do with the Christ? It begs and answer.

This explains it far better then I can.

Will everyone have a chance for salvation? What happens after death / at the resurrection / at Judgment Day? - Bible FAQ | United Church of God (http://www.ucg.org/bible-faq/will-everyone-have-chance-salvation-what-happens-after-death-resurrection-judgment-day)

"I took it as a put-down."


I apologize. Really. I meant no put down or offense. You know the saying, "you can take a gal out of the South, but you can't take the South out of a gal!"

"No. Jesus will return on the Last Day."

I agree. Jesus will return on the Last Day - which is described in Revelation chapter 4.

"No New Earth that I know of. This earth will disappear when Jesus returns. Are you a Witness?"

The New Earth will come into being with the new heaven. Revelation 21:1 " and I saw a new heaven and a new earth"
"For the new heavens and the new earth, which I shall
make, shall remain before me..." Isaiah 66: 22
"Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherin dwelleth righteousness" II Peter 3:13
And I am not sure what you mean by "witness".

"throne = something a king sits on
thrown = tossed aside"

Thank you for the spelling correction. I missed that.

"There is evil in this world because Jesus hasn't returned yet. We are still in the End Times."

I agree.

"Revelation was written in code and for a much earlier audience of readers. The Roman Empire is gone, thus Revelation has been fulfilled. "

I disagree. Revelation is nor referring to the Roman Empire, and none of the Bible is in code.

"#2. How could one not say the world is still evil? and Revelation's day has come and gone."

I didn't say the world isn't evil.(Believe me. I know this world is evil. I see it all around me) I'm just trying to find where you are coming from. The events that you and I both know haven't happened yet, (Jesus' return, etc.), are described in Revelation. I don't see how Revelation could have happened yet.

(I'm sorry... this looks like I'm quoting you even in my responses! How do I change it and break it all up?)

The Catholic faith (the only one I can really speak of with any knowledge) teaches that when one knows the truth of Christianity and then rejects it, will go to hell. Many people fall into the category of never knowing. And so, contrary to popular belief, Catholics do not believe that all non-Catholics go to hell.

In other words, once people know God and know the truth of His presence, they can choose to accept Him and do their best to live per his will, or they can choose to reject him. It is that concious act of rejection that condemns the individual.

The church also offers reconciliation for when we do fail - we forget or make a self-serving decision that disrespects Him and His will for us, we can ask and be forgiven, and return to a state of grace.

I didn't know that about Catholics. I've heard all sorts of things, but not that! Thanks

I don't see how Revelation could have happened yet.

Read up on the history of and discussion about Revelation and why it almost didn't make the cut into the canon.

Thank you. I have read quite a bit on that subject. I also have read why it DID make it to the canon.

Thank you. I have read quite a bit on that subject. I also have read why it DID make it to the canon.
Someone's arm got twisted? :)

Someone's arm got twisted? :)

Well that's not quite the way I got it, but it's a funny suggestion anyway.