Hello:

Some of our right wing friends think the way to win elections is to move FURTHER to the right. But, my question to them is, how many right wingers are out there, who AREN'T already voting with you?

Now, I don't know about politics, much.. But, I think doing that will spell the END of the Republican party as we know it...

Hillary in '16 AND 2020. Then it'll be Beau Biden. Go Beau! (I like the sound of that)

excon

Nobody moved further right... thats an illusion because the lefties have moved furth left than Stalin, Mao or Castro ever had the nerve to go.

I don't see where the right is moving further right, but the left is certainly moving further left.

I don't know... yesterday we came to a resonable plan for immigration... secure the border in exchange for a path to legal status .
Now the President is going to fly all day round trip to announce his plan which will cut the knees out from under our resonable compromise. So who is the extremist ?
The truth is that the Dems will stall any plan that is not 100 % theirs .They'd rather demagogue the illegal immigration issue than fix the problem since they gain politically by attacking the Repubics as racist xenophobes.

Hello tom:

Actually, the senators cut the knees out from under the president.. It was known well ahead of time that he was going to Vegas to announce HIS immigration plan...

My guess is the only real difference will be the SPEED at which the undocumented can attain citizenship... Maybe some BENCHMARKS on securing the border... We CAN'T leave it up to the likes of Joe Arpio and Jan Brewer to TELL us when the border is secure... IF that's the case, phase II will NEVER happen. That's part of the senators plan, by the way. It ain't going to fly.

excon

Hello tom:

Actually, the senators cut the knees out from under the president.. It was known well ahead of time that he was going to Vegas to announce HIS immigration plan...

My guess is the only real difference will be the SPEED at which the undocumented can attain citizenship... Maybe some BENCHMARKS on securing the border... We CAN'T leave it up to the likes of Joe Arpio and Jan Brewer to TELL us when the border is secure... IF that's the case, phase II will NEVER happen. That's part of the senators plan, by the way. It ain't going to fly.

Excon

And on Friday some Democrats urged him NOT to put forth his own plan (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/01/28/sources-congressional-hispanic-caucus-members-urged-obama-not-to-unveil-immigration-bill/) so who's cutting whose knees?


Some senior Democratic members of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus used a private White House meeting Friday to urge President Obama not to unveil his own immigration legislation, for fear of blowing up delicate bipartisan talks, Democratic sources tell CNN.

This is significant for several reasons.

First, because the White House has been telling senators and advocates that they are writing their own immigration bill, in legislative language. It is incredibly rare for the White House to write its own bill.

Second – Democrats urging the president not to release a bill illustrates how polarizing the immigration issue remains – especially for Republicans who fear that signing onto any legislation that could be seen as authored by the president could invite primary challenges for Republicans.

"It's a tricky thing. We want him to lead, but Republicans are in a difficult position," said a Democratic source familiar with Friday's meeting.

Sources familiar with the bipartisan Senate framework announced Monday tell CNN one of the main reasons they chose to unveil their framework one day before the president's planned Tuesday speech on the subject, was to start the national dialogue on their bipartisan terrain. Politically, CNN is told the senators felt it was crucial for it to be known that there has been a real bipartisan process ongoing that is independent from the president.

In fact, Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-New York, did not call the president to inform him of Monday's announcement until Sunday.

It's not really the president's job to write bills, that job falls to congress.

Hello again, Steve:

So, he's supposed to just sit around?? You really DON'T know how it works there, do you?

But, if the pres doesn't write bills, why do you blame him for Obamacare?

excon

But, if the pres doesn't write bills, why do you blame him for Obamacare? Touché.

Let him explain how a bipartisan plan by the Senate is DOA within 24 hrs.after it's introduced . What's the matter ? Schmuck Schumer not liberal enough ?

Hello again, Steve:

So, he's supposed to just sit around?? You really DON'T know how it works there, do you?

Apparently you don't know the difference between a proposal and an actual bill. I repeat from the article, "It is incredibly rare for the White House to write its own bill" in "legislative language."


But, if the pres doesn't write bills, why do you blame him for Obamacare?

a) it was his proposal, b) he takes credit and c) why do you blame Bush for everything?

Touché.

Apparently you don't know how it works either.

Steve baby - you got burned, just accept it. :)

Steve baby - ya got burned, just accept it. :)

It was a gotcha question with no substance to back it up. The only ones who got burned were you and ex by my knowledge of the facts.

You take this all sooooooo seriously, like it's life or death. Odd.
This member discussions forum are always lacking in substance and full of sensationalism and party rhetoric, can't take it seriously at all dude.

You take this all sooooooo seriously, like it's life or death. Odd

Again with the making sh*t up in your endless - and futile - effort to make me look silly.


This member discussions forum are always lacking in substance and full of sensationalism and party rhetoric, can't take it seriously at all dude.

Again, if none of this interests you then feel free to ignore our discussions, dude.

Nobody moved further right......thats an illusion because the lefties have moved furth left than Stalin, Mao or Castro ever had the nerve to go.

So in vour mind a gulag has been set up containing labour and re-education camps and the death squads move throughout the country seeking to eliminate all Rebublicans and the intellectuals. You know where this happened? In your mind.

So in vour mind a gulag has been set up containing labour and re-education camps and the death squads move throughout the country seeking to eliminate all Rebublicans and the intellectuals. You know where this happened? in your mind.

They turned the country into one... thanks to the Media completely giving up any pretext of honesty or accuracy.

Enough people are clueless enough and oblivious enough to actually believe the crap that passes for news, which is nothing but fiction and propaganda.

PRAVDA actually looks less extreme in retrospect than the lame stream media of today.

It's not really the president's job to write bills, that job falls to congress.


Well, maybe once, but now more and more draft legislation is being planned and refined outside of the political process. Both state and federally.

Well, maybe once, but now more and more draft legislation is being planned and refined outside of the political process. Both state and federally.

Perhaps, but the House and the Senate are constitutionally our 'legislative' branches of government. The prez can tell Congress what he wants, but Congress writes the laws.

Perhaps, but the House and the Senate are constitutionally our 'legislative' branches of government. The prez can tell Congress what he wants, but Congress writes the laws.


No doubt true in this case.

My reference was an attempt to introduce a wider picture. At the moment draft legislation in many states is being formulated by organizations who are not part of the democratic process.

Hello again,

Freshman Tea Party senator Cruz (Texas) is one of the three senators who voted AGAINST confirming John Kerry as Secretary of State...

This guy is chicken hawk. Chicken hawks run away from serving in the military, but have strong criticisms for those people who don't run away. This particular chicken hawk, speaking of Chuck Hagel and John Kerry, said "Both are less than ardent fans of the US military".

Between them, they have 5 purple hearts... Cruz has his d!ck. As a person who didn't run away either, I'm offended.

excon

Hello again,

Freshman Tea Party senator Cruz (Texas) is one of the three senators who voted AGAINST confirming John Kerry as Secretary of State...

This guy is chicken hawk. Chicken hawks run away from serving in the military, but have strong criticisms for those people who don't run away. This particular chicken hawk, speaking of Chuck Hagel and John Kerry, said "Both are less than ardent fans of the US military".

Between them, they have 5 purple hearts... Cruz has his d!ck. As a person who didn't run away either, I'm offended.

excon

Im sure chuck hagel earned his medals during the time he served. Im not so sure about Kerry. Also including the fact that he returned his / or maybe he didn't? Im not impressed with Kerry's record on many subjects.

Did Kerry Discard Vietnam Medals? - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Story?id=123495&page=1)

Why John Kerry Should Not Be Secretary of State (http://www.thenewamerican.com/reviews/opinion/item/14066-why-john-kerry-should-not-be-secretary-of-state)

How did John Kerry get OUT of his tour in Vietnam after only 4 months when the tour was a year... who did he have to blow to pull that off?

He got a purple heart

I guess if you didn't serve you forfeit your right to oppose the nomination or have an opinion about it ;or express your opinion on issues of war and peace . Cruz earned that right by being elected to represent his State in the Senate.Only 9% of the population has ever served ;including the draft era generation. So 91% of us should just shut up and let a junta of the martial class run the country.

Hello again, tom:

I don't object to his opposition.. I object to what he SAID.

He's a nutless CHICKENHAWK. He NEVER served... He RAN AWAY. He's AFRAID! How the FU*K can he say that these guys DON'T love the military, but Ted Cruz DOES!!

Look. You can excuse this sleazy bastard all you want, but if it were me, I'D be ashamed to stand up for him...

excon

He's a nutless CHICKENHAWK. He NEVER served... He RAN AWAY. He's AFRAID!
For a minute there I thought you were talking about Carl Levin . He is on the Armed Services committee ;has said some disgusting things about our troops... and NEVER SERVED ! What right does he have to his opinion or tone ? Let's round up all the lawmakers who have never served and drum them out... including the President .

Undertakers deal with dead people... AND THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN DEAD!!!! Absolutely disgusting. Drum them out.

It is obvious no one knows how it works. The president isn't likely to be in the detail, he will perhaps broad brush an approach with his cabinet, someone is going to tell him if it has any chance of getting up and then it is over to the legal eagles who work for the house and the senate to suggest appropriate language and ultimately a bill is presented which will be debated and be modified. It really doesn't matter whose idea it is because there is going to be negotiation

Obamas immigration policy has been on line for two years,and in his Vegas speech he said the same thing he said before in ElPaso, Texas, in 2011, almost word for word. Rubios plan is so close to the president's its not funny, but all we here about is support for Rubios plan. Okay cool, but those who can actually read and keep up with facts know the repubs are late to the immigration party, and are only willing because latinos ran like hell from the repubs ideas and candidates during the last election. So Obama hasn't changed, but repubs certainly have. Now THEY want to talk and compromise.

Obama has done the enforcement part of this deal and if repubs don't actually allow the pathway part to develop, and work, all this will be for naught and you guys will pay yet again.

The President lies through his teeth about enforcement . Ask the people living on the border if they think border security is sufficient .

Hello again, tom:


The President lies through his teeth about enforcement . Ask the people living on the border if they think border security is sufficient .Man, if you want to talk about LIARS, you can't leave out Arizona governor Jan Brewer.. She lied about headless corps's laying all around the desert...

Bwa, ha ha ha.

Excon

You mean ask the wingers? Obama has put more boots on the ground along the Southwestern border than any president, and deported more people than any in history while getting 71% of the latino vote.

It's the wingers that are lying.

and deported more people than any in history

All you need to do is to include people who returned to their country on their own into the stats ;and it's easy to make the figures look impressive.
The President admitted he cooked the books by including people that have been turned away at the border. The truth is that ICE is arresting far fewer people in the interior than ever before. 2010, ICE located fewer than half the number of deportable aliens in 2010 than they did in 2006 (517,000, down from 1.2 million).
So the President's inflated numbers come from people who have done what Romney called 'voluntary deportation' due to the bad economy ,and people who have been turned away at the border.

So if more are turned away and less being arrested why isn't that enough to implement a better process for the ones in the shadows now?

And if the president was man enough to admit his own accounting mistakes, how is that lying through his teeth? And why are the Mexicans the only immigrants you guys are worried about?

Hello again, tom:

What's instructive about this conversation, is the fact that people like you, smoothy and Steve will NEVER support a comprehensive immigration reform bill. You've got MILLIONS of reasons not. I understand. After all, who amongst us can switch up a long held position on a dime??

You're no different than Rubio, or Graham, or the flip flopper, McCain, and the Tea Party dude, Jeff Flake... They don't WANT this policy either... They're ONLY doing it to assuage Hispanic voters so they can win elections. They really don't believe what they're saying. Nonetheless, they're trying..

Are you going to HELP them, or not?

excon

Hello again, tom:

I don't object to his opposition.. I object to what he SAID.

He's a nutless CHICKENHAWK. He NEVER served... He RAN AWAY. He's AFRAID! How the FU*K can he say that these guys DON'T love the military, but Ted Cruz DOES!!!

Look. You can excuse this sleazy bastard all you want, but if it were me, I'D be ashamed to stand up for him...

excon

I guess I missed where Cruz was drafted and dodged service, could you point that out? Also, I like the exact quotes that offend you.

Meanwhile, I VOTED FOR TED CRUZ TO REPRESENT MY INTERESTS, not kiss a$$ and play nice. I think he's a welcome change from that mushy KBH and I would be disappointed if he didn't buck the establishment.

Steve

Hello again, tom:

What's instructive about this conversation, is the fact that people like you, smoothy and Steve will NEVER support a comprehensive immigration reform bill. You've got MILLIONS of reasons why not. I understand. After all, who amongst us can switch up a long held position on a dime???

You're no different than Rubio, or Graham, or the flip flopper, McCain, and the Tea Party dude, Jeff Flake... They don't WANT this policy either... They're ONLY doing it to assuage Hispanic voters so they can win elections. They really don't believe what they're saying. Nonetheless, they're trying..

Are you gonna HELP them, or not?

excon

I'm already on record as supporting reform so that's a lie. Excuse me though if I'm apprehensive about this president's 'comprehensive' anything.

Hello again, Steve:

You'll excuse me, if I didn't get the memo. So, help me out here.. Does all that gobbeldy gook mean that the 11 million people here illegally can STAY?

I asked tom the same thing.. He won't say.. He says if ALL his terms are met, whether they can stay or not is NEGOTIABLE.. Which, of course, means they CAN'T stay..

excon

Hello again, Steve:

You'll excuse me, if I didn't get the memo. So, help me out here.. Does all that gobbeldy gook mean that the 11 million people here illegally can STAY??

I asked tom the same thing.. He won't say.. He says if ALL his terms are met, whether they can stay or not is NEGOTIABLE.. Which, of course, means they CAN'T stay..

excon

I asked you for details first. But no, I don't believe every illegal deserves to stay, I'm sure there are some you wouldn't want in your neighborhood.

I just read an article that "guest worker" status would be next to indentured servanthood and can be greatly misused by an employer. I wonder if there is a way to keep that upfront and honest.

I just read an article that "guest worker" status would be next to indentured servanthood and can be greatly misused by an employer. I wonder if there is a way to keep that upfront and honest.

What article?

What article?
Does this work for you (http://www.salon.com/2013/01/30/immigration_yes_indentured_serfdom_no/?source=newsletter), or I will copy all or part of the article.

Thanks. I thought excon wanted them to wash our dishes and pick our pistachios. Now what?

Just waiting to hear your opinion so we don't put words in your mouth. Do you support green cards for the undocumented shadow workers while we keep working to secure the borders better, or not?

Thanks. I thought excon wanted them to wash our dishes and pick our pistachios. now what?
They still can, but not as slaves. Oh, and don't forget picking lettuce.

I picked Bing cherries every summer during high school, but most high schoolers nowadays refuse to do work that is so menial and low-paying. So let's treat with respect and decent wages those who are willing to pick our produce (and clean our motel rooms and do the restaurant kitchen scut work).

Just waiting to hear your opinion so we don't put words in your mouth. Do you support green cards for the undocumented shadow workers while we keep working to secure the borders better, or not?

I think you can deduce my opinion from what I said. No, everyone doesn't get a green card, we need to know who is here, there MUST be conditions whether you like it or not. I'm looking out for the country, the illegals who should be allowed to stay, your neighbors, etc - not just trying to pad voter rolls and pander.

P.S. Still waiting on ex to respond to this (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/3383286-post37.html).

I see the Dems have common cause with business after all.. . cheap labor .

This is probably the wrong thread to post this on, but I envision public libraries as being the main place, the "middleman" so to speak between individuals and government, where illegals learn English and all the other things they will need to become citizens.

I think you can deduce my opinion from what I said. No, everyone doesn't get a green card, we need to know who is here, there MUST be conditions whether you like it or not. I'm looking out for the country, the illegals who should be allowed to stay, your neighbors, etc - not just trying to pad voter rolls and pander.

P.S. Still waiting on ex to respond to this (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/3383286-post37.html).

USCIS - Voting Rights (http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=fb853a4107083210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCR D&vgnextchannel=fb853a4107083210VgnVCM100000082ca60a RCRD)


Non-U.S. citizens, including permanent residents (green card holders), who vote, or register to vote, in a federal election also can be denied naturalization and/or removed (deported) from the United States.

Your lack of FACTS again leads you to false conclusions, so since voting is not an option for green card holders, what's your problem in giving them the option of WORKING... legally? For that a green card IS required.

USCIS - Voting Rights (http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=fb853a4107083210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCR D&vgnextchannel=fb853a4107083210VgnVCM100000082ca60a RCRD)



Your lack of FACTS again leads you to false conclusions, so since voting is not an option for green card holders, whats your problem in giving them the option of WORKING.........................legally? For that a green card IS required.

I may have been born at night but it wasn't last night. Expanding their constituency has always been part of the push for a "path to citizenship" (citizens can vote) by Democrats.

What of your own pandering to Latinos with this sudden interest in immigration reform? That's not to expand your voter base? It is for moderate republicans, or the Rino's of your party.

Hmm wonder why you think more Latino voters will run to our side, and not to YOURS. After all isn't Ted Cruz the right wing TParty poster boy? Texas also elected Joaquin Castro to the house, a dem.

What of your own pandering to latinos with this sudden interest in immigration reform? That's not to expand your voter base? It is for moderate republicans, or the Rinos of your party.

Sudden interest? Dude, Rubio - the guy leading the charge - IS from an immigrant family in a state overflowing with immigrants, legal and illegal.I think he's been interested all along.


Hmm wonder why you think more latino voters will run to our side, and not to YOURS. After all isn't Ted Cruz the right wing TParty poster boy?


It's pretty easy, your side will promise them anything.

Hello again, Steve:


I asked you for details first. But no, I don't believe every illegal deserves to stay, I'm sure there are some you wouldn't want in your neighborhood.Undocumented workers that have been convicted of crimes have already been deported. Therefore, I assume the remaining people will make just fine neighbors...

What is YOUR criteria??

Excon

It's pretty easy, your side will promise them anything.

Just a fair shake.

Hello again, Steve:

Undocumented workers that have been convicted of crimes have already been deported. Therefore, I assume the remaining people will make just fine neighbors...

What is YOUR criteria???

excon

In other words you're OK with not knowing who is here. Not me.

P.S. Still waiting on which remarks by Cruz were so offensive and exactly how he's a "chicken hawk." Did he dodge the draft or something?

Hello again, Steve:

Mexico has no central database to check, and they're the MOST advanced Latino nation... I'd LIKE to know who's here, but since I CAN'T, they get the benefit of the doubt...

If you haven't served in the military, to say that two decorated, wounded veterans of war don't LOVE the military like you do, is highly OFFENSIVE.

You're welcome to this dirt bag.

excon

Hello again, Steve:

Mexico has no central database to check, and they're the MOST advanced Latino nation... I'd LIKE to know who's here, but since I CAN'T, they get the benefit of the doubt...

If you haven't served in the military, to say that two decorated, wounded veterans of war don't LOVE the military like you do, is highly OFFENSIVE.

You're welcome to this dirt bag.

Excon

That's OK, I found your source (http://prospect.org/article/chicken-hawk-ted-cruz-smears-kerry-and-hagel). Come on dude, "less than ardent fans of the U.S. military" is hardly something to get apoplectic about and I still see nothing that supports the "chickenhawk" label, as in actively avoiding military service. Apparently he chose to get an education instead of enlisting - how dare he?!

By the way, Senator Dan Coats served in the army and seems to support Cruz' observation (http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/senator-coats-hagel-has-had-so-much-disrespect-military_690807.html). Is he allowed to criticize him?


"I don’t know how you can nominate someone and make them Secretary of Defense who has had so much disrespect for the military," Coats told radio host Tom Rose. "And said so many public things in opposition to the military, what it stands for, the values that it holds. Chuck has alienated an awful lot of people."

I still see nothing that supports the "chickenhawk" label, as in actively avoiding military service. Apparently he chose to get an education instead of enlisting - how dare he?!!!
Isn't that also true of Dems we know and love?

Isn't that also true of Dems we know and love?

I don't know, I haven't called anyone a chickenhawk that I can recall.

Didn't Kerry violate the Logan act when he went to Paris while still in the Navy to negotiate independently with the enemy ? I think he did.

Well that will be a great point to bring up when he becomes a candidate again, how is it all those anti-communists haven't arranged his prosecution yet, or would you like to begin the persecution now?

I think that because of the extreme movement of the Left so much more to the left that the Right just seems more conservative. The Left is taking this country to places that will be nearly impossible to correct unless we have a full Republican/Conservative Administration and Congress to remove those damaging moves . WE as voters need to contact our respective representatives and tell them our concerns. And not just one or two items. Let them know your interest in everything that you do not feel is being done right. WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT. They work for us. This administration just started this thing where petitions can be sent to the White House (with a minimum of 100,000 signatures) for their perusal. So far, this administration has dismissed anything that does not line up with their agenda. This is not how our right to redress should be handled. Until we can get millions of people on board with one of these petitions, they will continue to do as they wish and not what the American public and taxpayers think is better for us.

I think that because of the extreme movement of the Left so much more to the left that the Right just seems more conservative. The Left is taking this country to places that will be nearly impossible to correct unless we have a full Republican/Conservative Administration and Congress to remove those damaging moves . WE as voters need to contact our respective representatives and tell them our concerns. And not just one or two items. Let them know your interest in everything that you do not feel is being done right. WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT. They work for us. This administration just started this thing where petitions can be sent to the White House (with a minimum of 100,000 signatures) for their perusal. So far, this administration has dismissed anything that does not line up with their agenda. This is not how our right to redress should be handled. Until we can get millions of people on board with one of these petitions, they will continue to do as they wish and not what the American public and taxpayers think is better for us.

It would be good if this were possible, but sadly it is not the case.

As I was trying to tell Tom in a previous post. The "ruling elites" don't just rule. In any hierarchical system who gets to rule is decided by allegiances formed or dissolved. One role of government is to be the power broker.

Organizations and companies being favoured or not favoured (depending on the persuasion of the government in power). When we vote we get to determine who the government brokers are going to be. Unfortunately, the voter does little more than fulfill this role.


What makes it even worse is that more and more draft legislation is being formulated by organizations who are outside of the political process.

Yes, the President can introduce a proposal but as stated, it is very, very rare that a sitting president would author an entire bill. Oh One More thins,, the Congressional Hispanic Caucus?? Where is the Congressional White Caucus??

Until we can get millions of people on board with one of these petitions, they will continue to do as they wish and not what the American public and taxpayers think is better for us.

I think you miss the point of elections, while you might think the majority think this way or that, that is rhetorical. In the election the majority of voters endorsed the president's platform, that the distribution of the seats in the house doesn't reflect this can be a reflection of local issues. You have a first past the post voting system, this doesn't mean more than 50% voted in favour of each candidate elected

Sorry you guys missed the last election but there is another one next year. Be there or be losers again.

Hope you have better luck catching the Super Bowl Sunday.

Sore losers are everywhere, let's hope it doesn't overpower good sense this time

Hello H:


Where is the Congressional White Caucus?? There isn't one, because having one would be VERY offensive. I understand that you don't understand that, so let's just leave it at that.

Excon

Where is the Congressional White Caucus??

On Wall Street, and the Cayman Islands.

I find the terms Black Caucus and Hispanic Caucus offensive and racist... on THEIR part.

I find the terms Black Caucus and Hispanic Caucus offensive and racist...on THEIR part.

Well of course they are, racism hasn't left yet, there is just a thin veneer of PC

Hello again, H:


I find the terms Black Caucus and Hispanic Caucus offensive and racist... on THEIR part.Like I said, you don't have an understanding of the issues..

Excon

Hello again, H:

Like I said, you don't have an understanding of the issues..

excon

I understand it, ever since desegregation blacks, Hispanics, gays, etc.have voluntarily segregated themselves.Except non-Hispanic whites that is, you won't find a congressional white caucus, a white dormitory at college, a United Caucasian College Fund, A National Association for the Advancement of White People...

Yes, the President can introduce a proposal but as stated, it is very, very rare that a sitting president would author an entire bill. Oh One More thins,,,,the Congressional Hispanic Caucus??? Where is the Congressional White Caucus???

We can't have one because that would be racist.

well of course they are, racism hasn't left yet, there is just a thin veneer of PC

What thin veneer?. most racism these days is practiced by the Black AND the Hispanic communities, not Whites.

There is already have a white caucus, in not only government, but every other institution in the country. There is also political parties that represents white interests,its called the republican party,with rich white guys, and the TParty, with middle class white people with rich guys giving money for elections locally, and nationally.


I understand it, ever since desegregation blacks, Hispanics, gays, etc.have voluntarily segregated themselves

I wonder why that would be that every non white, and female would run like hell from you? Any clues?


What thin veneer?. most racism these days is practiced by the Black AND the Hispanic communities, not Whites.

It isn't racism, its self defense. I didn't think you had a clue!

Hello again, Steve:


I understand it, ever since desegregation blacks, Hispanics, gays, etc.have voluntarily segregated themselvesWhat do you call a gated community?

Excon

There is already have a white caucus, in not only government, but every other institution in the country. There is also political parties that represents white interests,its called the republican party,with rich white guys, and the TParty, with middle class white people with rich guys giving money for elections locally, and nationally.

Bullsh*t. The only white caucus is Obama's inner circle.


I wonder why that would be that every non white, and female would run like hell from you? Any clues?

I don't see anyone running from me, they LOVE me.

Hello again, Steve:

What do you call a gated community??

excon

I call it a gated community.

I don't see anyone running from me, they LOVE me.

So do I Speech but you aren't a republican Tparty far right wing conservative on TV, and radio, talking about everybody like their dogs.

So do I Speech but you aren't a republican Tparty far right wing conservative on TV, and radio, talking about everybody like their dogs.

I haven't seen that either, it isn't the right that's thrown civility out the window.

There is already have a white caucus, in not only government, but every other institution in the country. There is also political parties that represents white interests,its called the republican party,with rich white guys, and the TParty, with middle class white people with rich guys giving money for elections locally, and nationally.



I wonder why that would be that every non white, and female would run like hell from you? Any clues?



It isn't racism, its self defense. I didn't think you had a clue!

IF we can't call it that... then it isn't that.

I haven't seen that either, it isn't the right that's thrown civility out the window.


IF we can't call it that....then it isn't that.

Just trying to give you guys a clue, since you didn't seem to have one.

So.. by your argument the demoKrats are all part of the AmeriKan Socialist Movement too... because they don't have to actually declare it to be part of it.

That makes no sense what so ever. I was trying to explain why YOU guys aren't very well liked by anyone but yourselves. Don't blame anyone but YOURSELF for that. Declare all you want, or NOT.

No big deal.

Just trying to give you guys a clue, since you didn't seem to have one.

I have a clue, I also have principles.


That makes no sense what so ever. I was trying to explain why YOU guys aren't very well liked by anyone but yourselves. Don't blame anyone but YOURSELF for that. Declare all you want, or NOT.

No big deal.

Like I said, I have principles. I don't pander to promote myself, my agenda or be liked. I don't try and buy people for votes, I don't grandstand to show how awesome I am and build on my faux legacy. I help others out of love, and I get plenty of love in return. You can have the masses you bought, the people holding their hand out for "Obama money," I'll take the love every time over the superficial bullsh*t that makes up the progressive movement.

That makes no sense what so ever. I was trying to explain why YOU guys aren't very well liked by anyone but yourselves. Don't blame anyone but YOURSELF for that. Declare all you want, or NOT.

No big deal.

You've just proven liberals are legends in their own minds.

I don't pander to promote myself, my agenda or be liked. I don't try and buy people for votes, I don't grandstand to show how awesome I am and build on my faux legacy. I help others out of love, and I get plenty of love in return. You can have the masses you bought,That is true of both parties equally.

That is true of both parties equally.

Not at all, conservatives believe in policies that help people help themselves, liberals believe government is the answer to everything. Conservatives encourage success, liberals punish success.

You answered me by changing the subject. I'm saying your politicians also do all the things I put in the quotes that you said - and it's true. Your distorted oversimplification of a complex issue adds nothing but creating another boring meaningless talking point.

Not at all, conservatives believe in policies that help people help themselves, liberals believe government is the answer to everything. Conservatives encourage success, liberals punish success.

Don't you ever get tired of mouthing the party line? Helping people is not punishing success, what is punishing success is exporting a successful industry to China so you can make more profit

Don't you ever get tired of mouthing the party line? Helping people is not punishing success, what is punishing success is exporting a successful industry to China so you can make more profit

Taxing the 53% more heavily to subsidize freebies for the 47% who pay no federal taxes IS punishing success and rewarding failure.

THe only FAIR tax is a flat tax... where EVERYONE pays an equal percentage share of their income.

And any argument to the contrary is arguing FOR punishing success... to reward the people who are failures.

Taxing the 53% more heavily to subsidize freebies for the 47% who pay no federal taxes IS punishing success and rewarding failure.
Many of those 47% are over 62 and are getting S.S. I am one of them. What freebies am I getting?

Many of those 47% are over 62 and are getting S.S. I am one of them. What freebies am I getting?


The Surprising Facts About Mitt Romney's 47% Who Pay No Income Tax - DailyFinance (http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/09/19/mitt-romney-surprising-facts-pay-no-income-tax/)

Many of those 47% are over 62 and are getting S.S. I am one of them. What freebies am I getting?

There are lots of freebies... far too many. Everyone should pay their fair share... if they did.. they wouldn't be so gung ho about getting free stuff that others have to pay for.

Everyone wants something if someone else will be paying for it.

And incidentally... most people on SSI paid into it their entire working lives... and as far as I'm concerned... unless you have SEVERE handicaps that preclude being able to work (fat and lazy isn't a handicap)... or unless you are retirement age.. you shouldn't be getting it.

And yes there ARE a lot of people scamming it... I've seen people faking it going into the SSI office like they are crippled and coming out later like they are heading to the gym...

Older Illegals who never paid a dime into the system that have gained citizenship through amnesty programs are collecting SSI while those of us who have paid 30+ years are being told we have to wait longer IF we are going to get anything at all...

And those aren't mythical.. I know a couple of them... and they can't be the only ones.

And that link is posted by a lefty org for the sole purpose to slam Romney... there are a LOT of people through credits and allowances and special deductions that not only pay no Federal taxes... but they get extra money handed to them.

State Taxes aren't Federal taxes, county taxes aren't Federal taxes, none of those go to the federal government... but Federal taxes are where the money for the government freebies all comes from. That's the Obama Dollars all the welfare people think they are entitled to.

So treat the needy like the greedy? How do you know which is which?

And yes there ARE a lot of people scamming it... I've seen people faking it going into the SSI office like they are crippled and coming out later like they are heading to the gym...
How many of those DID receive free money and weren't found out?

And that link is posted by a lefty org for the sole purpose to slam Romney... there are a LOT of people through credits and allowances and special deductions that not only pay no Federal taxes... but they get extra money handed to them.
Who? My autistic son who has a part-time job (for nearly 25 years), makes under $10 an hour, and gets an earned-income check once a year?

State Taxes aren't Federal taxes, county taxes aren't Federal taxes, none of those go to the federal government... but Federal taxes are where the money for the government freebies all comes from. That's the Obama Dollars all the welfare people think they are entitled to.

42611

Taxing the 53% more heavily to subsidize freebies for the 47% who pay no federal taxes IS punishing success and rewarding failure.

THe only FAIR tax is a flat tax....where EVERYONE pays an equal percentage share of their income.

And any argument to the contrary is arguing FOR punishing success....to reward the people who are failures.

OK taxation is theft, but you elected the government and gave them the power, you want a fair tax implement a consumption tax and cut back income tax, about 20% each way ort to do it but don't complain at the outcome and put a luxury tax on imported auto's, furniture...

ok taxation is theft, but you elected the government and gave them the power, you want a fair tax implement a consumption tax and cut back income tax, about 20% each way ort to do it but don't complain at the outcome and put a luxury tax on imported auto's, furniture.....
Why should the successful be punished for working harder? To reward the lazy for not working as hard.

The poor should pay and equal percentage as the rich... period... see how many people like the "freebies" when THEY have to foot a part of the bill.

Nothing like having skin in the game to level the playing field.

How many of those DID receive free money and weren't found out?

Who? My autistic son who has a part-time job (for nearly 25 years), makes under $10 an hour, and gets an earned-income check once a year?


42611

Plenty... because for the most part... they allow it to buy votes... I lost count of how many people I've seen hobble into the SS office on crutches... and 50 feet outside the door stand up, put them under their arm and walk away as able bodied as anyone else... and it's a daily event... not a rare or isolated one. Yes I have worked within sight of one.. where I saw it all day through a window.

Plenty of examples out there where a blind eye is turned because the offenders are of a certain political persuasion.

Starting with the Illegals... none of them are paying taxes because none of them have SSN#'s if they have been then they are guilty of identity theft for using someone else's number... another crime in itself. And yes that happens fairly often.

If you even face charges these days is all about who you know... Google up Pat Moran... they had him on video tape confessing about how to commit voter fraud and get away with it... because they do it... but his daddy a congressman got them to drop charges. If it was you or I... we would be going to jail.

Plenty... because for the most part... they allow it to buy votes... I lost count of how many people I've seen hobble into the SS office on crutches... and 50 feet outside the door stand up, put them under their arm and walk away as able bodied as anyone else... and it's a daily event... not a rare or isolated one. Yes I have worked within sight of one.. where I saw it all day through a window.

Plenty of examples out there where a blind eye is turned because the offenders are of a certain political persuasion.
No Republicans work for S.S. and can balance out these nasty Dem "giveaways"?

I had a (Republican) friend who tried to cheat the system (she lost my friendship along the way), but she never was able to profit, was always found out during the follow-up process.

A former coworker's husband worked for 30 years for S.S. has horror stories to keep you up all night, but maintains they did their utmost to keep cheaters off the rolls. Oh, and he's a Democrat.

Again, how many of those you see so blithely skipping out of the S.S. office actually do end up with a check?

Starting with the Illegals... none of them are paying taxes
They pay all sorts of taxes, but just not income tax (yet).

Clete you have to understand that the conservatives in the US are furious that they have been elected out of power, and only hold a shrinking majority in one of 3 branches of government. That's why they are coming on here hollering sour grapes about there own government because they have been rejected by a majority vote of the people TWICE, in 2008, and 2012.

They cannot accept that rejection so they cry the blues, spit gloom and doom, and call names. I mean, what else can they do but have a hissy fit.

Clete you have to understand that the conservatives in the US are furious that they have been elected out of power, and only hold a shrinking majority in one of 3 branches of government. Thats why they are coming on here hollering sour grapes about there own government because they have been rejected by a majority vote of the people TWICE, in 2008, and 2012.

They cannot accept that rejection so they cry the blues, spit gloom and doom, and call names. I mean, what else can they do but have a hissy fit.

Tal you don't think I understand, we lost the unloseable election three years ago and have had to do another three years hard Labor thanks to turncoat independents and scum, I am on the conservative end of politics here and I understand. You have to suck it up and plan for the future. We know you can't have it all your own way and things change, times change and opinions change, but you won't win with lame duck candidates and more of the same policies that have been rejected by the electorate. Look, my mob are already talking policies that might cost me and will certainly cost members of my family, but hard as it is those family members will accept the cost if it means change. What these people don't realise is that those who get benefits don't want to get benefits, they want a job, they want more and better, but if it isn't there, then they have to live

There are lots of freebies...far too many. Everyone should pay their fair share....if they did..they wouldn't be so gung ho about getting free stuff that others have to pay for.

Everyone wants something if someone else will be paying for it.

And incidentally...most people on SSI paid into it their entire working lives....and as far as I'm concerned...unless you have SEVERE handicaps that preclude being able to work (fat and lazy isn't a handicap)....or unless you are retirement age..you shouldn't be getting it.

And yes there ARE a lot of people scamming it....I've seen people faking it going into the SSI office like they are crippled and coming out later like they are heading to the gym.....

Older Illegals who never paid a dime into the system that have gained citizenship through amnesty programs are collecting SSI while those of us who have paid 30+ years are being told we have to wait longer IF we are going to get anything at all....

And those aren't mythical..I know a couple of them....and they can't be the only ones.

And that link is posted by a lefty org for the sole purpose to slam Romney....there are a LOT of people through credits and allowances and special deductions that not only pay no Federal taxes...but they get extra money handed to them.

State Taxes aren't Federal taxes, county taxes aren't Federal taxes, none of those go to the federal government.....but Federal taxes are where the money for the government freebies all comes from. That's the Obama Dollars all the welfare people think they are entitled to.

Wondergirl asked you, "What freebies am I getting?" So you answer her with the worst type of partizan tripe.

I see. So it is the case that because I am fat I must also be lazy. Is this the ludicrous generalization you are trying to make?

Is this the ludicrous generalization you are trying to make?Tut, I predict you will get quite frustrated if you are looking for non-partisan discussions from this member.

Wondergirl asked you, "What freebies am I getting?" So you answer her with the worst type of partizan tripe.

I see. So it is the case that because I am fat I must also be lazy. Is this the ludicrous generalization you are trying to make?

If you use being fat as an excuse to not work because your legs hurt as a result... then it means you are. There are also fat people out there who aren't lazy... which one are you? I know plenty of both...

Tut, I predict you will get quite frustrated if you are looking for non-partisan discussions from this member.

Oh look at who spews out that comment... the person who DEFINES partisan on this board. You've got absolutely NO business trowing that around with your history of partisan comments on this site.

Lol!

No Republicans work for S.S. and can balance out these nasty Dem "giveaways"?

I had a (Republican) friend who tried to cheat the system (she lost my friendship along the way), but she never was able to profit, was always found out during the follow-up process.

A former coworker's husband worked for 30 years for S.S., has horror stories to keep you up all night, but maintains they did their utmost to keep cheaters off the rolls. Oh, and he's a Democrat.

Again, how many of those you see so blithely skipping out of the S.S. office actually do end up with a check?

They pay all sorts of taxes, but just not income tax (yet).

Right... thats why they workd for cash and don't keep bank accounts for the most part... so they can avoid paper trails and taxes...

I know well over a dozen people that manage to avoid most taxes that way... its called working off the books... and there are a LOT of people that do it, some of them aren't even illegals. I can't do that because the work I do doesn't lend itself to cash payments.

They don't make any effort to weed out the welfare rolls... I see welfare people and people in the projects that drive nicer cars than I can afford... and if you calculate all the freebies and handouts they get... a family of four would have to make over $60K just to pay for them.

Your sons case doesn't apply here, because he's got a legitimate handicap... one he was born with and one he in all likelihood will have the rest of his life... his limitations are not of his own choice or yours. And contrary to the people I am talking about... I'm sure he has actually tried to be the best he can be.

Not everyone was born to be the next Bill Gates, (not the smartest guy on the block but had the right idea at the right time who pursued it the right way) , Or Steve Jobs... (who was a great marketing guy... but Steve Wozniak was the brains behind Apple in the early days)

The ones I have a disdain for are the people who did as little as they could in school... maybe even dropped out... then take the easy way out while complaining they are entitled to more...

They are entitled to work to earn it if they want it... they are not entitled to have it handed to them. Everyone has the opportunity... what they do with it is up to them... and a LOT of people are happy without having to have it all... its their choice.


lol!

Clearly you don't like the truth being pointed out when you are being hypocritical.

Ok. BTW I voted Conservative last election.

Clete you have to understand that the conservatives in the US are furious that they have been elected out of power, and only hold a shrinking majority in one of 3 branches of government. Thats why they are coming on here hollering sour grapes about there own government because they have been rejected by a majority vote of the people TWICE, in 2008, and 2012.

They cannot accept that rejection so they cry the blues, spit gloom and doom, and call names. I mean, what else can they do but have a hissy fit.

As if your side hasn't been rejected much. I believe there are 30 Republican governors as well you know. But it's funny how your side twists the truth, the only ones throwing hissy fits are Democrats because Republicans won't bend over and take it in the a$$ at their every whim. That's the job of the opposing side, to oppose, so get over it.

That's the job of the opposing side, to oppose,That's that's the way american politics is designed to work? Oppose everything? It's no wonder you guys are in the mess you're in.

That's that's the way american politics is designed to work? Oppose everything? It's no wonder you guys are in the mess you're in.

So in Canadian government everyone walks in lockstep? Bwa ha ha!!

If you use being fat as an excuse to not work because your legs hurt as a result....then it means you are. There are also fat people out there who aren't lazy.....which one are you? I know plenty of both....


That's not what you said. You took two contrasting words, 'fat' and 'lazy' and used the conjunction 'and' to make them into a non-contrasting statement.

Despite your prejudice towards overweight people it is less likely that the two conditions 'fat' and 'lazy' will be satisfied. That is, satisfied when compared to the words being found in singular statements.

So in Canadian government everyone walks in lockstep?If those are the only two options you see then I guess we go no further with this.

If those are the only two options you see then I guess we go no further with this.

Ok, whatever.

As if your side hasn't been rejected much. I believe there are 30 Republican governors as well you know. But it's funny how your side twists the truth, the only ones throwing hissy fits are Democrats because Republicans won't bend over and take it in the a$$ at their every whim. That's the job of the opposing side, to oppose, so get over it.

Your opposition doesn't bother me because as more people get informed and involved they walk away from far right lunacy, as a protection of their own booty holes.

Its clear MORE are seeing the far right as hollering and accusing while they indeed are the ones perpetrating everything they deny doing. I respectfully submit that while you have been screwing what you consider the underclass people for centuries, you balk when they have grown big enough, you think, to give you the same screwing you gave them.

That's a perception based in fear, as the ones you screwed don't want to screw YOU, but have a share of the country they helped to build, that you denied them. Interesting indeed is the notion that when those denied rights for so long would be screwing you when they get and finally exercise THEIR own rights.

But keep opposing everything, we love you blaming others as we watch you screw yourselves in the process.

Your opposition doesn't bother me because as more people get informed and involved they walk away from far right lunacy, as a protection of their own booty holes.

Its clear MORE are seeing the far right as hollering and accusing while they indeed are the ones perpetrating everything they deny doing. I respectfully submit that while you have been screwing what you consider the underclass people for centuries, you balk when they have grown big enough, you think, to give you the same screwing you gave them.

Thats a perception based in fear, as the ones you screwed don't want to screw YOU, but have a share of the country they helped to build, that you denied them. Interesting indeed is the notion that when those denied rights for so long would be screwing you when they get and finally exercise THEIR own rights.

But keep opposing everything, we love you blaming others as we watch you screw yourselves in the process.

What's clear is the left (and their media accomplices) are demonizing the right relentlessly and dishonestly and no one except Fox and the conservative blogosphere is holding Democrats accountable for anything. Your post is an excellent example. I want people to make informed decisions, your side wants the me to remain clueless. Them's the facts, Jack.

That's not what you said. You took two contrasting words, 'fat' and 'lazy' and used the conjunction 'and' to make them into a non-contrasting statement.

Despite your prejudice towards overweight people it is less likely that the two conditions 'fat' and 'lazy' will be satisfied. That is, satisfied when compared to the words being found in singular statements.

I know what I said... and its not what you are trying to make it into... let me guess... you voted for Obama and believe the economy is getting better and jobs are being created too, just because the Messiah claims its so?

Also despite there being 8.5 million fewer people in the workforce today than was in it 4 years ago... and that number hasn't been improving... you do know the real unemployment rate is 14.4% not the bogus number they claim that doesn't include people who didn't qualify for benefits because they were self eployed or contractors... or gave up looking when their benitits ran out..

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t15.htm

The U6 rate on the linked chart... from the Bureau of Laborstatistics website directly...

What's clear is the left (and their media accomplices) are demonizing the right relentlessly and dishonestly and no one except Fox and the conservative blogosphere is holding Democrats accountable for anything. Your post is an excellent example. I want people to make informed decisions, your side wants the me to remain clueless. Them's the facts, Jack.

They listen to you, they listen to us, and run from YOU.


I know what I said.....and its not what you are trying to make it into.....let me guess...you voted for Obama and believe the economy is getting better and jobs are being created too, just because the Messiah claims its so?

Also despite there being 8.5 million fewer people in the workforce today than was in it 4 years ago....and that number hasn't been improving....you do know the real unemployment rate is 14.4% not the bogus number they claim that doesn't include people who didn't qualify for benifits because they were self eployed or contractors...or gave up looking when their benitits ran out..

Table A-15. Alternative measures of labor underutilization (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t15.htm)

the U6 rate on the linked chart....from the Bureau of Laborstatistics website directly....

Get on them job creators Smoothy, like you get on them fat lazy job seekers.

[QUOTE=talaniman;3385575]They listen to you, they listen to us, and run from YOU. [/quote}

There you go again.

They listen to you, they listen to us, and run from YOU.



Get on them job creators Smoothy, like you get on them fat lazy job seekers.

Yeah guess we'll have to since it is already demonstrated that stimulus spending does squat except expand the role call of the government dependent.

Well if government shouldn't create jobs and job creators won't then who? You think all those unemployed are from government? No they were from the private sector, state and local governments.

The states got there stimulus money and the smart ones used the time to make adjustments but now they are on their own. Yeah go talk to your "job creators". Let me know how that works out for you while the fat lazy takers who lost their jobs, benefits, and homes go to Wall Mart, and the food stamp office. There is no place left to go and you guys holler about your rights, but try to pursue happiness with no money in a capitalist country.

Show a guy how to fish, and there ain't no fish. GREAT PLAN. Hope you are never tested as some of our citizens have been.

I know what I said.....and its not what you are trying to make it into.....let me guess...you voted for Obama and believe the economy is getting better and jobs are being created too, just because the Messiah claims its so?



No, you don't know what you said otherwise you would not be using the same conjunction fallacy yet again.

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjunction_fallacy


No, I've never voted for Obama.

Wall Street is doing great, as is the private sector, but those job creators aren't making jobs. Maybe they should change their names back to rich guys, and we get some new job creators.

Got any ideas where we can find someone like that?

Hello again:

Can I shift the conversation?? I say conservatives have moved way right. THEY say, oh no... We're STILL in the middle. It's YOU who have moved far left.

Now, I don't want to discuss WHO is right.. That will never be solved here... What I want to talk about is HOW we solve our problems, whether they're problems the right wing thinks we have, or the left, when each of us believe the OTHER guy is nuts?

excon

Hello again:

Can I shift the conversation??? I say conservatives have moved way right. THEY say, oh no... We're STILL in the middle. It's YOU who have moved far left.

Now, I don't wanna discuss WHO is right.. That will never be solved here... What I wanna talk about is HOW we solve our problems, whether they're problems the right wing thinks we have, or the left, when each of us believe the OTHER guy is nuts?

excon

Then why start by basically calling us nuts?

What I wanna talk about is HOW we solve our problems
Dear esteemed excon:

I can think of two that both parties can happily work on together:

1. Teach our youngsters that they don't have to look to gangs and to each other to get "love" and emotional/social support, and
2. Teach all students how to think (not regurgitate).

Respectfully,
WG

Hello again, Steve:


Then why start by basically calling us nuts?If you're willing to give up the job of saving the world because some Yahoo on the internet said you were nuts, then you have a much thinner skin than I thought..

But, besides that, I think I was calling BOTH sides nuts, as viewed through each others perspective.. But, I can see we're going to get bogged down again.. Oh, well.. I'm TRYING to forge something here.

Excon

I'm TRYING here.
Some would say, you're ALWAYS trying. :D

HOW we solve our problems, whether they're problems the right wing thinks we have, or the left, when each of us believe the OTHER guy is nuts?

Meet me at the Heights of Weehawken.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Hamilton-burr-duel.jpg
Maybe we don't solve them. These are age old issues in this country . I look at today's leaders and I don't see greatness. I don't see great compromisers like John C. Calhoun, Daniel Webster, Stephen A. Douglas,Robert Y. Hayne and Henry Clay in the Senate Chambers creating what turned out to be a series of temporary compromises (thanks to SCOTUS fatally undermining their efforts ) . I see Reid and the Scmuckster ,and McConnell and Jon Kyl (thankfully he's retiring ) .

So I'll propose something we both can agree on... term limits and throw the bums out until we get great leadership.

So I'll propose something we both can agree on... term limits and throw the bums out until we get great leadership.Still won't work - you need to curb the lobbying and the political "donations".

What ? You don't believe in participatory democracy ?

Hello again, Steve:

If you're willing to give up the job of saving the world because some yahoo on the internet said you were nuts, then you have a much thinner skin than I thought..

But, besides that, I think I was calling BOTH sides nuts, as viewed through each others perspective.. But, I can see we're gonna get bogged down again.. Oh, well.. I'm TRYING to forge something here.

excon

If you really want change then its going to have to come from full disclosure and not the way it is being currently done in Washington. Translation for both sides: Stop the lies coming from either party and work at goals where you can meet and expand from there. It is not a difficult process but it does tend to be rather long because both sides actually have to listen and reflect on what the other is saying.

what ? You don't believe in participatory democracy ?

Being ruled by faceless men in lobby's and PAC's is not democracy Tom it is a farce

Yeah like the teacher's unions ; the Sierra Club , all of hundreds of advocacy groups that commonly petition the government . Face it ;you only object to businesses doing what environmental organizations ,trade unions ,etc have been doing for decades .

Personally Tom I don't think any of it should be allowed

what ? You don't believe in participatory democracy ?Oh dear, there's some heavy rationalization to arrive at that conclusion.

yeah like the teacher's unions ; the Sierra Club , all of hundreds of advocacy groups that commonly petition the government . Face it ;you only object to businesses doing what environmental organizations ,trade unions ,etc have been doing for decades .


Forget it Tom. Participatory democracy is quickly dying. I've been posting stuff to this effect for a while. But, hey - what would I know about such things.

Oh dear, there's some heavy rationalization to arrive at that conclusion.

Tom believes in the democracy of money, the guy with the most bucks rules

Clearly that is not the case . Money may or may not be a factor in deciding elections.. What I know is that you think only certain people are entitled to their 1st amendment right to petition the government individually ,or as a group.

There is a case to be made that as more people become informed the electorate can make better electoral choices, but a 4 hour wait to make that choice is ridiculous. That doesn't help the participatory society at all. Nor do the behind the scene shenanigans of special interest group who actually write the state laws, or lobby the federal government to write laws that unduly shifts influence from the electorate to monied interest, while defunding the protections to the electorate.

the behind the scene shenanigans of special interest group who actually write the state laws, or lobby the federal government to write laws that unduly shifts influence from the electorate

Talking about the Sierra Club again ? Or maybe the Aspen Institute;Earthjustice,Energy Action Coalition,Green For All,a group was created by Van Jones to lobby for federal climate, energy, and economic policy initiatives. they all have a major fingerprint on most of the environmental laws

Or maybe you are talking about the AMA ,the NEA ,AFT ,AARP ,ABA ,ACLU ,the Center for American Progress ,Center for Reproductive Rights , or any of the 100s of similarly minded lib advocacy groups that routinely lobby and write progressive legislation.

Hello again, tom:


or any of the 100s of similarly minded lib advocacy groups that routinely lobby and write progressive legislation.One of the reasons we find ourselves where we are, is that you PRETEND right wing groups like ALEC don't DO the same thing.

Excon

Hello again, tom:

One of the reasons we find ourselves where we are, is that you PRETEND right wing groups like ALEC don't DO the exact same thing.

excon

In all the alphabit soup that was mentioned the biggest one not mentioned in the news and headlines today is the NRA. Both sides have advocacy groups. The 2 major problems I see with the way politics are being run is an uninformed class of voters and a media that refuses to follow up on issues. (as in researching and reporting the truth in unbiased fashion.)

Hello again, tom:

One of the reasons we find ourselves where we are, is that you PRETEND right wing groups like ALEC don't DO the exact same thing.

excon

I'm not pretending that at all. I think it's perfectly acceptable unless there is corruption by the elected class. The laws if enforced cover that contingency . It's you that complains about money's influence.. but only when there is right wing or corporate advocacy .

clearly that is not the case . Money may or may not be a factor in deciding elections .. What I know is that you think only certain people are entitled to their 1st amendment right to petition the government individually ,or as a group.

If it is clearly not the case then why have you said that money could or could not be a factor?

Edit

Tut

Hello again, tom:

One of the reasons we find ourselves where we are, is that you PRETEND right wing groups like ALEC don't DO the exact same thing.

excon

The difference here Ex is that ALEC actually drafts the legislation to be rubber stamped. The process is made easy when you have a majority of politicians who are also a members of ALEC.

We can talk about non- participatory democracy, but when the politicians don't participate you have real problems.Who do you think drafted the voter I.D. laws?

The difference here Ex is that ALEC actually drafts the legislation to be rubber stamped. The process is made easy when you have a majority of politicians who are also a members of ALEC.

We can talk about non- participatory democracy, but when the politicians don't participate you have real problems.Who do you think drafted the voter I.D. laws?

And why??

And why????

Basically, because what you will eventually end up with is an hierarchical system of decision makers who are devors where by the only role of voting will be to decide who the power brokers are going to be. In other words, voting will be nothing more than deciding which faction of the oligarchy will make the decisions.

That's the short answer.

The difference here Ex is that ALEC actually drafts the legislation to be rubber stamped.and as I said ,there is hardly an environmental law in the country that doesn't have Sierra Club's finger prints all over it . You want to know why Social Security is so hard to reform ? Because AARP uses membership fees to lobby Congress. That's the way the game is played. The only changes is which groups were excluded by various attempts at Federal Election "reform."

Basically, because what you will eventually end up with is an hierarchical system of decision makers who are devors where by the only role of voting will be to decide who the power brokers are going to be. In other words, voting will be nothing more than deciding which faction of the oligarchy will make the decisions.

That's the short answer.
And the hoi polloi and the rest of the huddled masses?

and as I said ,there is hardly an environmental law in the country that doesn't have Sierra Club's finger prints all over it . You want to know why Social Security is so hard to reform ? Because AARP uses membership fees to lobby Congress. That's the way the game is played. The only changes is which groups were excluded by various attempts at Federal Election "reform."


I see. So the Sierra Club, unions AARP etc are all members of the one umbrella organization, to which politicians are also members of said umbrella organization.

Is this what you are trying to tell me Tom?

Hello TUT:


Is this what you are trying to tell me Tom.No. What he's trying to tell you is that when the right wing does it, it's cool. When the left does it, it's not.

Excon

No ,what I said often is that it's cool when BOTH sides do it.

no ,what I said often is that it's cool when BOTH sides do it.


Well, if that's the case then they need to organize themselves in that direction because the other side has already rationalized that process.

Well Tut .I think you are way too smart to believe that thousand page bills written in legalize has the authorship of the legislator that introduces it.

I go by the 1st amendment ;that says ,Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom... to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. That is what advocacy and lobby groups do .

well Tut .I think you are way too smart to believe that thousand page bills written in legalize has the authorship of the legislator that introduces it.



That would depend on the resources available and the ability to mobilize resources.




I go by the 1st amendment ;that says ,Congress shall make no law....abridging the freedom ... to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. That is what advocacy and lobby groups do .

Well Tom, I am sure many here, including Steve, who want the same thing to be true when it comes to freedom of religion.

You and I are smart enough to know that in this day and age the Constitution is not standing as iconic piece of architecture. Perhaps it should but it doesn't.

Over the years SCOTUS has seen to that. They keep chipping away at the edifice. Give it time they will get to the redressing of grievances bit.

Hello again,

Freshman Tea Party senator Cruz (Texas) is one of the three senators who voted AGAINST confirming John Kerry as Secretary of State...

This guy is chicken hawk. Chicken hawks run away from serving in the military, but have strong criticisms for those people who don't run away. This particular chicken hawk, speaking of Chuck Hagel and John Kerry, said "Both are less than ardent fans of the US military".

Between them, they have 5 purple hearts... Cruz has his d!ck. As a person who didn't run away either, I'm offended.

excon

By the way, you've been awfully quiet about this since Hagel showed his utter incompetence to head our military. The' highlights' in case you missed them..

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No wonder former press secretary Gibbs said, “The disconcerting thing, obviously, for anybody that watched it was he seemed unimpressive and unprepared on the questions that, quite frankly, he knew was coming.”

But hey, like Obamacare and having to pass it before knowing what was in it I guess we should confirm Hagel so he can learn admin policies and how to run the military.

Sec. Of Defense doesn't initiate any policy but what the president tells him to. I think he has the votes.

Yeah he'll definitely be a mouth piece... a trained monkey .

Sec. of Defense doesn't initiate any policy but what the president tells him to. I think he has the votes.

I have to echo tom's sentiment, the president doesn't want a qualified leader, he wants a trained monkey. Apparently you're OK with incompetence at the highest levels of government.

He was a war hero, on the ground in Viet Nam. Who will be a lot more thoughtful before sending our troops to war than the Bush crowd.

Good thing McCain-Palin/Romney-Ryan got rejected. Just saying.

He was a war hero, on the ground in Viet Nam. Who will be a lot more thoughtful before sending our troops to war than the Bush crowd.

Good thing McCain-Palin/Romney-Ryan got rejected. Just saying.

Being a combat veteran does not qualify him to lead the military, which, in essence exists to kill people and break things.

I thank him for his service. There are thousands of similar Vets who I don't think should lead our Armed Services.

That's only one of many qualifications and being a war hero should NOT disqualify him either.

It doesn't... that he goes into a hearing about his nomination (the equivalent of a job interview ) unprepared to answer basic questions about the issues he'll have to deal with disqualifies him. Jeeeze ;You raked Palin over the coals for answers to a gotcha interview and made judgements on her qualifications (and intelligence ) based on that few moments on television. This guy knew the questions were coming and still couldn't anwer them.

But ;he'll be approved because the President gets to pick the people who work for him (unless he's Bush selecting a UN ambassador ).

Hello again,

I don't know where I put my last Ted Cruz blast, but I'll this one here (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/49263362#50803789). Did you know that he's been a senator for a whole month??

He's a SCUMBAG of the first order.

excon

Damn him for actually vetting someone.

Hello again, Steve:

Excuse me?? Suggesting that Hagel might be a paid agent for North Korea or pals around with Iranians, is a smear, EVEN in right wing world...

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that your right wing blinders prevent you from seeing this for what it is.

excon

Like most righties Cruz would rather open his mouth rather than listen and learn.

Lindsey Graham and Jim Inhofe;both long time Senators , are against "Professor "Hagel too. Guess they are scumbags . I think the President could pick a better nominee than someone who thinks the United States is the world's bully.

However ,unlike the Dems who blocked John Bolton ;I think the President should have wide latitude in picking his cabinet... at least he won't be a 'czar' .

Hello again, tom:

So, I'll put you in the right wing BLINDER wearing camp too. Being AGAINST Hagel, is DIFFERENT than suggesting he's a TRAITOR.

Even WITH your blinders on, you should...

Oh, never mind.

excon

Comes from years of listening to you guys whine about Republican ties to ANYTHING. I mean geez, you guys torched a guy for feeling like his daughter was violated (http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/08/pennsylvania-tom-smith-senate-pregnancy-rape-unwed-daughter.php) and you have no questions on this moron who clearly has questionable ties and views (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2013/02/12/hagels-complicated-ties/)being asked to head our defense?

Seriously, after the original Borking I feel no sympathy for someone nominated by a Democrat being grilled. Get over it.

Like most righties Cruz would rather open his mouth rather than listen and learn.

Coming from the side with Biden and Alan Grayson? Bwa ha ha!

Hello again, tom:

So, I'll put you in the right wing BLINDER wearing camp too. Being AGAINST Hagel, is DIFFERENT than suggesting he's a TRAITOR.

Even WITH your blinders on, you should.....

Oh, never mind.

excon

I think there is some merit in the claims about the money that warrants further inquiry .

Frankly ;I'm surprised Zero didn't go with Michele Flournoy as his pick... unless he knew that Hagel would be so objectionable that he threw him there as a sacrificial lamb before dropping him for Flournoy .

I'm sure Feinstein is just as bad as Cruz for holding up the Brennan confirmation (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/senators-delay-vote-on-brennan-seek-more-information-about-drone-campaign/2013/02/13/6684beb2-761c-11e2-aa12-e6cf1d31106b_story.html)for a couple of weeks over the drone issue. Even McCain has cooled to his opposition of a Hagel filibuster.

I don't see the problem with the Senate looking for answers from the most transparent administration evah!

Hello again, Steve:

It's true. I mean, all you're doing is asking questions, right? Although there's NO evidence whatsoever, he MIGHT be a commie. He might be an agent for North Korea. I mean, if you don't look at where he made his money, you'll never know if he was a TRAITOR or not... Really, if Chuck Hagel doesn't disclose EVERYTHING, I'll think he's an Iranian sympathizer too. I mean, if we're only asking questions.

excon

PS> You guys are pitiful..

It's a little late for fishing expeditions since there was ample time to investigate and ask proper questions during the nomination process. But NOOOOOOO... we had to investigate Viet Nam and Iraq.

Nobody asked about finances then, so why is it credible now? It ain't. VOTE and get on with it.

Hello tal:

This is PURELY political. They can't TOUCH Obama, so they pile on the next best thing. Of COURSE, he's qualified..

excon

So in other words we should just bend over and take it in the backside. I like Cruz, he's a bulldog. You know an old bulldog don't you?

Oh and Tal, it was during the nomination HEARINGS which IS where you ask questions. But again, you guys wouldn't know anything about Borking a nominee do you?

Maybe it is political . I think he'd be a disaster . But I understand why the President wants him. The President wants to gut the military to 1970s levels of ineffectiveness. With Hagel ;he has a Republic face to the dismantling so he can claim bipartisanship. That's the pitiful part .

You squandered your opporunity buddy, and to put Bork for SCOTUS in the same category as Hagle for Defense is ludicrous. Your own presidential nominee got away with releasing a year of his taxes and you guys said NOTHING, but defended him. Now you want a cabinet post nominee to be scrutinized going back 5 years? You should have called the FBI sooner.

Now vote, up or down, doesn't matter.

maybe it is political . I think he'd be a disaster . But I understand why the President wants him. The President wants to gut the military to 1970s levels of ineffectiveness. With Hagel ;he has a Repubic face to the dismantling so he can claim bipartisanship. That's the pitiful part .


Seems to me that would make his nomination purely political.

Guys like Hagal are the ones that thought "Measured response" during the Vietnam war was the way to fight a battle.

They were wrong then too. Halfassing anything is a recipee for failure.

You squandered your opporunity buddy, and to put Bork for SCOTUS in the same category as Hagle for Defense is ludicrous.

Position is irrelevant, Dems started this reaming of nominees and now whine when ALL of theirs don't sail through without vetting. Get over it.


Your own presidential nominee got away with releasing a year of his taxes and you guys said NOTHING, but defended him.

You have an awfully short or convenient memory.


Mitt Romney tax documents 2010-2011 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/documents/mitt-romney-tax-documents.html)

Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney has released his 2011 federal tax return. He also has released a letter from his tax preparers, PricewaterhouseCoopers, LLP, giving a summary of Romney's tax rates for the 20-year period from 1990-2009. View the full 2011 return and the 20-year summary letter, as well as his previously released 2010 federal tax return, 2011 estimated 1040 form and tax documents for his family's blind trusts and charitable foundation. Also included in the release was the 2011 federal tax return for vice presidential candidate Paul Ryan.


Now you want a cabinet post nominee to be scrutinized going back 5 years? You should have called the FBI sooner.

Now vote, up or down, doesn't matter.

Only 5? What's the problem?