And yet it is far more important than what is happening elsewhere

War fears as Israel kills Hamas commander (http://www.smh.com.au/world/war-fears-as-israel-kills-hamas-commander-20121115-29d9n.html)

There has be a war that everyone seems to deny is happening going on, at least I would have thought that rocket barrages and air strikes would have constituted a war. We have got used to it just as the people of Israel have got used to it and we don't talk about it. We know there is no solution short of genecide and we don't want to know. The people of Gaza keep provoking the Israeli's, they know their favoured solution is never going to get up, they are not going to be allowed to live in Israel, they are not going to be allowed passage through Israel to other Palestinian territory, they are not going to form a state of Palestine. Why they cannot be allowed to form their own state is beyond me. Singapore succeeded as an enclave state, why not Gaza. Not a great solution but it might stop the missiles. The Israeli's are a little like King George of long ago who could not tolerate a barbaric state on his borders, so lopping the head off the snake seems a good idea

I heard about all of this on the news this morning. That situation has gotten out of hand since a sympathetic president has gotten elected and doesn't seem to care if Israel is an ally or not. What they don't understand over there is how far ahead of the game the Isrealies actually are. They were offered statehood long ago as well as everything they wanted and they refused. Its not about land its about cleansing. It needs to stop and the boarder nations surrounding the area could contribute land so they can start nation building. Its either that or armagedon.

No one is going to give up any more land, the Egyptians don't want these people, the Jordanians don't want them. These people want the land that the Israeli's occupy, they want to be allowed to go back to Israel. They left of their own free will at the insistence of their religious leaders and now they pay the price for stupidity.The land over there can only be farmed with intensive measures, not the subsistence these people are capable of. Why they don't settle and make Gaza a hub for industry is beyond me. They obviously have capabilities. Even in ancient times Gaza was a thorn in the side of the jews

but it might stop the missiles
No it won't Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel. Creating a state in Gaza would just give international legimacy to their terrorist ,homicidal ,genocidal policies. I know that if NJ was lobbing hundreds of missiles daily into NY ;NY would have a right to squash them like a bug.

Tom I think we might be of similar opinion about remedies but this is the twenty first century and more civilised solutions must be found. A dirty great fence around the West Bank solved one problem but it is not the solution to Gaza. I don't see Israel as having any choice but surgical strikes against Jihadists. They used to bomb the Palestinian authority buildings but they don't do that anymore, they used to level the homes of attackers but they don't do that anymore. They certainly need to be more vigilant and get the attackers before they launch rockets. I expect they will launch another incursion to demolish various buildings and take the jihadists on in their own territory. I suggest that Gaza be forced to get its water and electricity from Egypt. Close the borders, that's what they would do in the old days, siege, starve them out.

don't see Israel as having any choice but surgical strikes against Jihadists
Yesterday's decap strike against Hamas military chief Ahmed al-Jabari was a nice warning to Hamas leaders to duck .

Nothing like Israel retaliating against barrarges of missles aimed at their elementary schools to wake up the UNSC.
Egypt formally seeks U.N. Security Council meeting - chicagotribune.com (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-palestinians-israel-egyptbre8ae0ir-20121115,0,1321063.story)

Guess they had to end the cocktail party early yesterday .

The jihadists don't duck, for them to die in battle is glory. We have to lose the idea these people can be coerced by military force. Unfortunately there can only be one answer and there is no favourable regime in Egypt who will look the other way. Israel must reoccupy Gaza

The jihadists don't duck, for them to die in battle is glory
Maybe the ground troops buy into that nonsense . But the leaders like OBL hide like panty-waists and tell others to die for Allah . Al-Jabari was out in the open because they were getting arrogantly confident that the Israelis were going to continue to take hits without retaliation.

No Tim in a place like Gaza you have to come out some time, it is a case of Israeli intelligence being better than theirs'. Don't you wish you had an intelligence service half as good?

The Mossad is the best .

Hello:

You can't talk about Gaza WITHOUT talking about the regional war in Syria, Iran hegemony and, the Arab spring that is just now getting underway in Jordan. The kingdoms were immune from it, but not any more. Saudi Arabia is next. Egypt is unsettled, and Libya is out of control.

Uhhhh, this is NOT Obama's fault. I KNOW you think he SOLVED the Middle East Crisis by giving a speech, and you were BLOWN away when you found out he didn't, but can you come back to earth now?? We have a serious situation and we can't be firing at ourselves...

excon

Uhhhh, this is NOT Obama's fault I KNOW you think he SOLVED the Middle East Crisis by giving a speech
No one on this discussion blamed Obama ;but yes , his apology tour was fuel for the fire that is beginning to burn out of control .

You are right about Gaza .Hamas is a proxy of the Brotherhood who now rule Egypt. The insurgency in Syria is also being supported by Brotherhood proxies... apparently we have hitched a ride on their wagon... that is Obama's policy.

Hello again, tom:

Your attempts to blame Obama for the Middle East ain't going to fly with me. I live on earth.

excon

You're the one who brought up the strawman . No one mentioned the President until you did. The problems in Gaza predate the President . But the President's policies have contributed to the disaster unfolding .

Yesterday's decap strike against Hamas military chief Ahmed al-Jabari was a nice warning to Hamas leaders to duck .

From the IDF Twitter feed:

Meanwhile US senior command is in disarray

RADM Charles Gaouette, USN, Commander of the Stennis battlegroup, recalled Oct 17, 2012 as his force entered the Fifth Fleet's area of operations.

General Carter Ham, USA, AfricaCom. To be replaced... announced Oct 18, 2012.

General John Allen, USMC, ISAF Commander, linked to 'inappropriate' emails,

David Petraeus, Director, Central Intelligence Agency, resigned .

General William E. Ward USA, former AfricaCom commander, demotion announced Nov 13,

Meanwhile the Obama Adm stonewalls about Benghazi . Sen Dianne Feinstein controls the hearings process in the Senate ;and no one will budge on the McCain /Graham/Ayott request for a special committee to investigate . Petraeus will testify behind closed doors, and the questions will be limited to Benghazi. No one in the adm can explain adequately the President's policy towards the so called Arab Spring and there is no transparency . What we do know is that the Israeli's are the ones most likely to be thrown under the bus. No one made a peep as rockets rained down on Israel . They finally get fed up and the world reacts .

Tom do you have your tail in a knot because you are not involved in these struggles, not determining the outcome. Iraq should have taught you something but the lessons are hard learned

The war grinds on, Israel waits patiently for the opportune moment and rocket failures mean that the Palestinians are bombing their own. When will this foolishness end. Israel clearly needs to invade, destroy all the tunnels through which these rockets have been brought and uncover and destroy stockpiles

Yup and permanently occupy the Philadephi Road to stop the flow of arm in from Gaza.

Credible reports that the long range Fajr-5 missile being used is being assembled and directed by Iranian QOD forces.

Not surprised by that at all, while you remain belligerent toward Iran, ahamadjihad will find a way to strike, but it is not about you. We all know that there is no way out of the Muslim-Arab-Israeli thing short of Armaggedon. They should have established the jewish homeland in northern Australia, we were willing and there was no population that was going to get its knickers in a knot.

Can't see what the point of these "long range" missiles are if they are so inaccurate, just weapons of terror. I say flatten Gaza, it is the only answer, force the refugees over the border into Egypt and let someoneelse have the problem. In fact push them right back to Suez

They should have established the jewish homeland in northern Australia, we were willing and there was no population that was going to get its knickers in a knot.
Who else do you want to relocate out of their historic homeland ?

I say flatten Gaza, it is the only answer, force the refugees over the border into Egypt and let someoneelse have the problem. In fact push them right back to Suez
Is that your 'Final Solution' ?

No solution is final Tom you know that, but until the people of Gaza learn to play nice, Israel will not treat them like good neighbours. You and I both know that the problem there as in other places is radical islam, but the population support Hamas and its terror campaign. It was good enough for the US to invade Afghanistan to take on radical islam with the intention to anniliate Al Qaeda, why should Israel not anniliate Hamas

Haven't seen any comments about a suicide bomber in Tel Aviv, it seems it is convenient to look the other way and worry about what BO had for breakfast

no solution is final Tom you know that, but until the people of Gaza learn to play nice, Israel will not treat them like good neighbours. You and I both know that the problem there as in other places is radical islam, but the population support Hamas and its terror campaign. It was good enough for the US to invade Afghanistan to take on radical islam with the intention to anniliate Al Qaeda, why should Israel not anniliate Hamas

I have no problem with that . However the other faction in Gaza that needs to be dealt with is the Iran controlled Islamic Jihad . Any hudna negotiated will be violated by them .

They all have to go Tom, we both know that, but the population is with them in the same way the germans were with the Nazi in Germany. The population will have to be dehamasified and that means deislamised, not much chance of that

My read on this is that even though the Israelis have been pummeling them ;the Islamists are the big winner in this battle.
From a diplomatic view ; delegations from Egypt, Turkey and Iraq have traveled to Gaza City in sympathy.That would've never happened pre-Arab Spring.Mohammed Morsi is seen as a peacemaker and a legitimate ruler of a major Arab nation.Hamas gains legitimacy as the rulers in Gaza with these visits,and even the possibility of the US Sec State leaving a calling card. Meanwhile a new front was opened as you point out with a suicide/homicide bombing .

Hamas has launched it's long range Fajr-5s toward Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, and lived to talk about it. They will be permitted to restock through Sinai and await for marching orders from Tehran. Tehran can turn on and off its provocation at will and on it's time table.
When push comes to shove ;the Israelis cannot deploy the IAF on Iran if they are needed to have air superiority on their northern (Hezbollah) and southern (Hamas ) borders.

Hello again,


dehamasified and that means deislamised, not much chance of thatWhat they REALLY need is to be de-OCCUPIED, and that may take care of the rest.. But, you're right. There's not much chance of that.

Excon

Hello again,

What they REALLY need is to be de-OCCUPIED, and that may take care of the rest.. But, you're right. There's not much chance of that.

excon

Ah, so you agree with Hamas that the Jews must all go?

Hello again,

What they REALLY need is to be de-OCCUPIED, and that may take care of the rest.. But, you're right. There's not much chance of that.

Excon


“It cannot be argued that Gaza is occupied. Israel left Gaza willingly (during the disengagement in 2005 –ed.), yet they target our children as they are leaving for school.
Peres: There is No 'Occupation' in Gaza - Middle East - News - Israel National News (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162231)

Hello again,

While it's true, the Israeli's aren't physically IN Gaza, they control every aspect of life in Gaza just as if they actually occupied it.

I don't know what the correct term for it is. The Jews should be pretty familiar with it, though. It's pretty close to what the ghetto in Warsaw was like. What would YOU call it? They're certainly not FREE.

Fortunately, I have a broader view of history than you guys do.. After all, you can't remember further than four years ago. I can.

excon

Hello again,

While it's true, the Israeli's aren't physically IN Gaza, they control every aspect of life in Gaza just as if they actually occupied it.

I dunno what the correct term for it is. The Jews should be pretty familiar with it, though. It's pretty close to what the ghetto in Warsaw was like. What would YOU call it? They're certainly not FREE.

Fortunately, I have a broader view of history than you guys do.. After all, you can't remember further than four years ago. I can.

excon

So they permit in all humanitarian supplies and supplies that can be used to make a civil society in Gaza . But they don't permit in armaments that get aimed at Israeli civilians... and you compare it to Warsaw ? And you consider that a broader view of history ? I call it a warped ,cynical, and moral relativist view.

Hamas controls their lives, not Israel. Israel does more for Palestinians than their own leaders, they send 100 plus trucks of aid a day into Gaza and it's Hamas rockets that are holding up that aid now. Israel gives them food, supplies and medical care and get rockets in return. It isn't Israel's fault they can't take care of themselves, Arabs in Israel have it much better.

Hello again,

So, they're treated wonderfully, huh? Tell me about the airport where they can get a flight OUT... Oh, that's right. They CAN'T leave. They're PRISONERS.

excon

Hello again,

So, they're treated wonderfully, huh? Tell me about the airport where they can get a flight OUT... Oh, that's right. They CAN'T leave. They're PRISONERS.

excon

So Israel should rebuild their airport and buy them planes? What is it you don't get about these people choosing their fate? It was that good ol' boy Yasser Arafat that chose Gaza as their HQ you know.

P.S. That's a mighty big beach they have, ever heard of a boat? They can also make a short trip over to El Arish International Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Arish_International_Airport) to get away.

Hello again, Steve:


That's a mighty big beach they have, ever heard of a boat? They can also make a short trip over to El Arish International Airport to get away.Well, if I've miscast what the Israeli's are doing as an occupation, I CERTAINLY know they're blockaded. So, no boats. And, no leaving either. When I said they're PRISONERS, I wasn't lying...

So, you think they stay to get bombed by CHOICE, huh? I'm not surprised that you're so ill informed. You probably couldn't believe what you do, if you were informed.

Once upon a time the Israeli's were the underdogs. I LOVE underdogs... But, they AIN'T today. The Gazans are.

Excon

Hello again, Steve:

Well, if I've miscast what the Israeli's are doing as an occupation, I CERTAINLY know they're blockaded. So, no boats. And, no leaving either. When I said they're PRISONERS, I wasn't lying...

So, you think they stay to get bombed by CHOICE, huh? I'm not surprised that you're so ill informed. You probably couldn't believe what you do, if you were informed.

Once upon a time the Israeli's were the underdogs. I LOVE underdogs... But, they AIN'T today. The Gazans are.

excon

Try this, the Palestinians elected Hamas as their leaders. Hamas chooses to put rockets in schools, which in any other world would be a war crime. Hamas chooses to have one goal, the elimination of Israel. Hamas chooses to fire rockets at the hand that feeds them.And you're surprised Israel would get fed up?

But, your underdog response is predictable. Although in my world one free and democratic state surrounded by enemies that aim for their total destruction still makes Israel the underdog.

P.S. I guess you missed that airport link, it's primarily used by Gazans. They can and do get out.

The Rafah border crossing is open for civilian movement in and out of Gaza.

It called segregation, the oldest form of keeping undeirable from mixing with the desired population. From the Great Wall of China, to the nazis, to the great fence between Mexico and the US.

Yeah they have a wall in Britain too. People tend to run like hell when the shooting starts, and those who ain't shooting hate the ones that run from it. People hate immigrants, epecially poor ones, epecially poor countries that have their own poor to worry about.

Its an age old question when one small faction has power over whole populations, and they have the guns to back up whatever they want. Hamas is but the latest example of the few having an effect on the many even though they were ELECTED!

For whatever reason or excuse Israel has successfully isolated and segregated Gaza, as they have expanded their own boundaries. They don't have to cut a deal, or reach a solution, becaue history has made it acceptable to keep undesirable out, and call them names, and keep them poor.

Imagine if Gaza was a rich successful independent state. You think Israel could keep expanding? I don't think so.


The Rafah border crossing is open for civilian movement in and out of Gaza.

Gaza - Open-Egypt Crossing Border a Critical Point of Conflict -- VosIzNeias.com (http://www.vosizneias.com/117794/2012/11/20/gaza-open-egypt-crossing-border-a-critical-point-of-conflict/)


A major obstacle to an open crossing at Gaza's primary link to the outside world could be Egypt, which fears that easing the restrictions might destabilize the border region and anger its Western allies.

In a sign of Egypt's ambivalence over the crossing, the country's terminal is a rundown, antiquated hall with broken chairs and a single computer to register travelers.

Ismail Haniyeh, Hamas' prime minister in Gaza, earlier this week urged Egypt to fling open the border crossing.

So much for free and easy coming and going.

It called segregation, the oldest form of keeping undeirable from mixing with the desired population.

And the ultimate segregation would be the stated objective of Hamas, to eliminate Israel. There is no interest in a two-state solution with these people, only a one-state solution. Is there something you don't get about that?


For whatever reason or excuse Israel has successfully isolated and segregated Gaza,

Um, see above. Would you want to live with your wife if her stated objective was to eliminate you and she kept firing rockets at you until she succeeds?


So much for free and easy coming and going.

So it's Israel's fault that Egypt keeps them out, too? You guys make no sense.

QUOTE by speechlesstx;
And the ultimate segregation would be the stated objective of Hamas, to eliminate Israel. There is no interest in a two-state solution with these people, only a one-state solution. Is there something you don't get about that?

The cowards called Hamas are a small groups with big guns that hide among the people they also terrorize. Target THEM not the vast majority of poor folks.


Um, see above. Would you want to live with your wife if her stated objective was to eliminate you and she kept firing rockets at you until she succeeds?

Israel and Gaza are NOT married! That a poor analogy. The Hatfield and McCoys
Is more accurate.


So it's Israel's fault that Egypt keeps them out, too? You guys make no sense.

I never said, wrote, or implied that it was Israel's fault the border was closed. Its not implied in the link either. You assumed wrong.

Dude, they elected Hamas, now they have to live with it.

So it is over for the moment, Hamas is still there, nothing has changed

Hamas is only a part of the Palestinian government of Gaza.

Palestinian factions walk out of Cairo meeting | Maan News Agency (http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=446582)


The reconciliation accord aims to unite the parties after Hamas seized control of the Gaza Strip in 2007, a year after winning national elections.

Yes we know there are a lot of factions doing their own thing

Hello ? Hamas rules Gaza .

What does it matter? We are probably going to sell leftover drones to Israel that already has proved they kill rascals any and everywhere. The iron dome worked too!

The guy with the gun may think he rules, but noise isn't the only thing to consider. Arab spring in Gaza?

Yes, Tom, Hamas is in charge, but there are many islamist factions there. Hamas say they weren't responsible for the bus bomb in Tel Aviv but someone must have done it. What we see all the time is someone not willing to accept the umpires decission

Arab spring in Gaza Tal would suggest regime change, but Hamas is part of the Muslim Brotherhood so it could be said the Arab Spring happened years ago and was a forerunner of what happened elsewhere. Israel may need to be more discreet in the future

Hamas say they weren't responsible for the bus bomb in Tel Aviv but someone must have done it. What we see all the time is someone not willing to accept the umpires decission

I agree ;that wasn't their MO . More likely it was an Israeli Arab or someone from the West Bank (Abbas ) ordered the attack to appear relevant.


Arab spring in Gaza Tal would suggest regime change, but Hamas is part of the Muslim Brotherhood so it could be said the Arab Spring happened years ago and was a forerunner of what happened elsewhere. Israel may need to be more discreet in the future
The cease fire ushers in the new tripartate in the region . The big winner besides Hamas for surviving is the Cairo-Ankara-Tehran tripartate .

Just another round in the never ending story, excepting that we know how it ends

For clarity let's call it the 'Axis powers ' .

Yes the axis of evil

How quickly we forget, it's off the front page already and forgotten. This is the point I was making at the start of this post, our attention span is small, no one is interested in middle east conflict unless someone is shooting and maybe not even then, it's a case of ho hum, not again

The statistics are interesting 1573 rockets fired at Israel, 1500 air strikes on Gaza and the more interesting statistic, less than one Gazan casuality for each Israeli air strike, which sort of proves the Israeli's were avoiding civilian targets even though the collateral damage doesn't suggest that

So those stats prove the charge of disproportionate response is false. As for "collateral damage " goes ,it's tough to prevent it when the Palestinians use civilians as human shields . There was an aerial photo of a Fajr-5 launch site strategically positioned next to a playground,and a Mosque,a gas station ,and civilian factory .
http://www.jihadwatch.org/images/MissileLaunch.jpg

Yes Tom, we have no doubt they use mosques for various purposes, but if you blow up one mosque you might set off enough explosives to level Gaza. This is a mad society where explosives are more important than people, but no doubt they could have taken out the gas station and the factory. The whole of Gaza is a human shield no place more than any other.

And still they say if the Israeli want war they will give them war, totally irrational

Meanwhile Morsi is using his new elevated status in the world to consolidate dictorial powers and establish himself as the next Pharaoh . No doubt Morsi and Evita will share the next Nobel Peace Prize.

News from The Associated Press (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_EGYPT?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-11-22-11-27-48)


President Mohammed Morsi's decree puts himself above the judiciary and also exempts the Islamist-dominated constituent assembly writing Egypt's new constitution from judicial review... Other articles give Morsi power to take measures to protect the revolution.

Undoubtedly a President, or a Presidential candidate, needs one these days, almost essential

I wouldn't be too worried about what despots do in Egypt, they have a long history of that form of government, no use giving those people democracy, they don't know what to do with it

It is a fitting commentary on the whole Arab Spring thingy .

Not necessarily, Tunisia is quiet, Libya hasn't caused too much trouble once the fight was over, but then perhaps they are not true arabs, and Syria, well that grinds on

Tunesia is a success because it's quite ? Not only is Morsi's power grab a fitting commentary ;it is the predictable outcome. Political Islam and democracy can't coexist . When tourism and foreign investment return as it was before the Revolution in Tunesia we can begin to talk about it's successes. But a radical Islamic regime democratically voted in or not ,will not be able to manage the nation and make it proper .

Tom I am unconcerned about ratbag Islamic nations. Egypt is only of interest because of its proximity to Israel. I don't expect Islamist led governments to be either reasonable, or democratic, but so long as they confine their activities to their own territory the developed countries can get back to solving their own problems. Now I know Iran might be a horse of a different colour, and certainly trouble making is their game, but they won't risk open warfare.

Tunisia is something for France to worry about, there is a long association there, and no doubt Libya will look to Italy

I'm more interested to see what Obama will do. When the people took to the streets of Cairo to protest the dictatorship of Mubarak ,the President called for his ouster and supported the protesters .
Well now we have Morsi's power grab and the people again took to the streets . Will the President stand with them ,or Pharaoh Morsi ? Will Evita again call for "an orderly, peaceful transition to real democracy, not faux democracy" ?

I suspect the President will support Morsi ;this man of the people ,this symbol of "new begining " that Obama referred to in his apology tour speech at Cairo. Hey... he just used his power of persuasion to get his proxies in Gaza to accept a hudna ! That's good for a Nobel Peace Prize . The fact that Iran will smuggle more long range missiles through the Sinai will be overlooked.

2nd terms are traditionally the time when Presidents try to forge a lasting legacy . The total takeover of the Magreb and Levant by extremist political Islam will be Obama's legacy .He lit the kindling early on... turning his back on real democratic movements ,and embracing the extremist elements in the ummah . He can dance on the grave of OBL all he wants to . For all the treat of AQ ,they never posed a threat to seize the seat of power of a major nation . Oh they could successfully and temporarily be the major power in a failed state ;but not in an established nation with a functional government . That is the change Obama has brought . Radical jihadists are now firmly in control of the most powerful Muslim states in the region.

You expect a President to be a statesman playing on the world stage, but in fact few are up to the task. Obama needs a lasting legacy at home, not abroad. He has his 'victories" abroad, the withdrawal from Iraq, the withdrawal from Afghanistan, the death of OBL, the death of Gaddafi, this is surely enough for one man. If you expect him to invade the Megreb you might be disappointed

His legacy will be the spark that ignited the takeover of the Magreb by extreme Islam. The withdrawal from Iraq is a blunder . Afghanistan is a surrender in the way it is being conducted . I already commented on the insignificance of the killing of OBL in the wake of what he has helped unleash . QDaffy was his 'lead from behind' deception and payback to our European allies for their support for AfPakia . The jury is still out on the Libya adventure but what it bought us is a hardline position from Moscow (who we lied to and deceived about our intentions ) that will now check every other initiative .But worse of all is that Libya introduced a new concept into our foreign policy... the so called 'responsibility to protect ' (R2P) that the Obots will use for all types of initiatives including (if Samantha Powers gets her wish) ,the military intervention by the US in support of the Palestinians AGAINST Isreal.

Hello again,

It's like I said earlier.. You guys THINK Obama solved the Middle East problem because he made a speech in Cairo. When it turns out he didn't, the problem became his...

This is eerily similar to your faulty memory BEFORE Obama became president... George W. Bush sunk the economy, but you can't remember, so it's Obama's fault. The Middle East has been in flames for the last 75 years, but you can't remember, so it's Obama's fault...

Bwa, ha ha ha.

excon

Hello again, tom

I can't remember if you were pissed that Obama DIDN'T support OUR dictator named Mubarak. I think you were. Where do you stand with "our" other dictators like the king's of Saudi Arabia and Jordan? They're going down too. Who's side are you on? The people or the dictator?

Will it be Obama's fault no matter WHO prevails? I think you think it WILL be.

excon

I was ambivalent towards Mubarack . He was being nudged towards democratic reform before the Obama Presidency . But while he was a dictator ,he maintained the peace and stability between his nation and Israel that was forged after the Camp David Accords .

Radical political Islam isn't good for the people ;even if democratically elected ;any more than the democratically elected Nazi was good for Germany. So if the people of Saudi Arabia or Jordan choose the Brotherhood ,I will oppose them as well.

I oppose any kind of religious fundamentalism as a way to govern. I also think Egypt is in a good position to help shape a peace in the middle east. The problem I think is that Israel has had no reason to negotiate in good faith as long as big brother had their back, but Egypt also needs our support to succeed as a nation, brotherhood or NOT!

I mean how hard is it to draw and agree on a map?

Why has Israel not done so?

Let not forget either to be fair, Gaza is not JUST Hamas, but everyone thinks it is becaue they have guns AND rockets.

Why has Israel not done so?


You make it sound like the whole burden is on Israel. The charters of Hamas and the PLA call for the destruction of Israel as a nation. Do you expect them to negotiate away their existence ? Israel came to the table a number of times and even this time stopped way short of what they are capable of . They were winning militarily ;but gave that option away .What do they get in return ? The recognition of Hamas as the legitimate negotiating partner in Gaza... and a weakening of both the border crossings into Sinai and loosening of the blockade. Sounds like they lost diplomaticallly to me . That falls squarely on the shoulders of Evita and Obama.

Don'y worry Ex the US has just created another friendly dictator they will end up fighting. Someone has to remember you can't be on both sides in this contest. It will come down to either the Palestinians or the Israeli's. There are no good islamists, they are opposed to everyone who is not Muslim and they have another beef here, land and a small piece of land they call sacred

It's a cease fire, the latest of many before. No Army will win this one. What? Should they just quit and just start the shooting... keep shooting?

You want my honest opinion, death is the only way this gets healed. The Palastinians are not going to give up their claims, they want to return to their homeland, just as the jews wanted to return to their homeland. What would you do if you were crowded into a thin strip of land with no way out. Eventually you will fight, lash out, because death is a release. Israel asked them not to go when Israel was formed but instead three wars have created the situation we have today. Large numbers of displaced people and this is a generational thing, generations of these people have known nothing but war or the threat of war. Nothing excuses their behaviour towards Israel, but Israel has to carry part of the blame for not normalising relations

BS is all I say. The Israelis in the 1990s offered them almost all they demanded ,and Arafat walked away from the Camp David negotiations . Gaza is completely in their control . The phony right of return is not going to happen any more than the Jews who were expelled from their lands in Jordan and the surrounding territories will be allowed to return to their properties .
If you think 'right of return ' is a solution then you too are calling for the destruction of Israel.

Please don't be idiotic Tom I didn't say their claims were valid, merely that they exist. I didn't suggest that Israel should allow them to return, they left by their own will even if war caused them to move, Whether Arafat gave up a real opportunity or not is history and we have moved a long way since then, even though the borders have changed little. You and I both know this isn't going to be resolved by the formation of some Palastinian state, all that is going to do is formalise borders. No solution imposed by the US or anyoneelse is going to work, the parties have to come to the conclusion for themselves that peace is a good idea and the palastinians have not yet reached that point. They are stupid enough to think they can win a military conflict just because Gaza exists. It exists because Israel has not chosen to wipe it off the map.

None of this precludes the Palestinians being treated humanely

Morsi's power grab is almost complete . A new Islamist Constitution passed after walkouts by just about every opposition group . Perhaps the new Constitution will be submitted to the public for a referendum. More likely Morsi will proceed with his power grab leaving Egypt as the latest example of democracy Arab style... one man ,one vote ,one time.

No one set a time limit on democracy Tom, only in the west have we decided that elections have to be held at various intervals, In truth we have learned that political agendas become stale after a time and renewal is needed. The Arabs have not learned this, after two hundred years of democracy they might come to know this, until then they will move from one emir to another

This is democracy French revolution style. Shortly after the promise comes the reign of terror and then Napolianism.It doesn't end well.

True but it is the model followed by most of the world. Your own revolution produced much talk but inevietably degenerated into civil war more bloody than many of the wars the world had seen before. It seems there must be some sort of purging before a different era can be ushured it and even then it might not take root. Europe fought two wars in recent history before the old order was swept away. The French revolution was still borne, it produced Napeleon, though they would never admit it.

You can't blame the arabs for not embracing the western model, after all look at what it has produced

Europe fought two wars in recent history before the old order was swept away. lol ;the new order in Europe is a German dominant victory... this time without firing a shot.

lol ;the new order in Europe is a German dominant victory ...this time without firing a shot.

Yes Germany has risen, and who do we have to thank for that. The US made the mistake of reconstructing its two enemies Germany and Japan. What they hoped to gain I cannot imagine, both places should have been left a wasteland

They tried that formula in 1918.

Second time lucky, there is a difference between a wasteland and leaving them with their production capacity and extracting usuary from them. In 1918 the German nation hadn't been touched by war, the solution was political and led to hyperinflation and the rise of Hitler

However at last someone has the gumption to say what needs to be said

Amnesty: Hamas rocket attacks amounted to war crimes - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-32053999)

Hamas have committed war crimes. This sort of condemnation should have come from that toothless tiger the UN, however Amnesty has come right out and said it. This is a somewhat belated declaration but perhaps Amnesty will also cite Russia for its war crimes in the Ukraine

but perhaps Amnesty will also cite Russia for its war crimes in the Ukraine

nahh ; Amnesty pointed out who is committing war crime there .
https://www.amnesty.org/en/articles/news/2014/09/ukraine-must-stop-ongoing-abuses-and-war-crimes-pro-ukrainian-volunteer-forces/

Well there you go, I expect extremeist are hard to identify, perhaps you only get a clear picture when the war is over

Yeah we can wait another decade or two.

Yes it seems we destined to see out these proxy wars without declaring a world war