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rol
Mar 13, 2007, 09:55 AM
Just a topic off the serious matters for a change ;-)

I was never really into zodiac stuff until about 5 years ago when I met an indian friend who told me that in India most marriages are arranged by matching signs, like water and water, fire and fire etc.

Back then I was seeing an Aries and she told me fire and water will never work and it was correct, and I have had disastrous experiences dating leo(fire) also

My 2 long term relationship have been with Pisces(matching water sign)

So just wanted to see in your experience,especially the happy married ones, are your signs compatible?!
Is it as simple as choosing a matching sign ?lol

Synnen
Mar 13, 2007, 10:00 AM
I honestly have no idea whether our "signs" are compatible!

I've been with my husband for 11 years... he's a Libra and I'm a Capricorn (Sagittarius cusp).

The only other close relationship I've had that was happy and lasted for some time was with an Aries. (this is my best friend. Not a sexual relationship, but a close relationship)

NeedKarma
Mar 13, 2007, 10:00 AM
Are Taurus and Leo supposed to be good together?

Geoffersonairplane
Mar 13, 2007, 10:00 AM
Hi rol,

I am a fire I think, I am Aries and my ex was a Piscies which is water.

Work that one out... LOL

What qualities does a fire have as opposed to water.

I know you told me this once but can you tell me again.. :)

rol
Mar 13, 2007, 10:19 AM
Ah yeah Geoff I remember talking about this with you before :)
Complete opposites lol

Find a fire sign ! Sagitarius, aries or a leo!
:)

Geoffersonairplane
Mar 13, 2007, 10:25 AM
So, perhaps before I even date them, I should say, "What star sign are you?" and if she says one that is not compatible, I should just say to her, "sorry darling, we are not compatible"

LOL>>That would be quite funny actually.

That means me and you are not compatible rol... LOL We are fire and water are we not?

I bet we could be compatible friends though.:)

rol
Mar 13, 2007, 10:28 AM
<<That means me and you are not compatible rol... LOL We are fire and water are we not?
>>

Yes, alas! No hope! :)
Lol:))

NeedKarma
Mar 13, 2007, 10:29 AM
I have never checked any girl's sign before dating. My wife and I have been together for 12 years now. :)

Geoffersonairplane
Mar 13, 2007, 10:37 AM
<<That means me and you are not compatible rol...LOL We are fire and water are we not??
>>

yes, alas!! no hope!! :)
lol:))


Darn rol, I should have lied to you and said I was a piscies.. LOL:D

Genuineforce
Mar 13, 2007, 10:47 AM
I think that the truth is, that a good match in this life is based on the two signs maturity as far as their realization of who they are and how their honesty as developed. From my experience speaking, It may be wiser to stay away from your exact opposite on that chart, for example I am a gemini and my worst experience was with a saggitarius. Also staying slightly away from your own sign (IF YOU CHOOSE) simply because life is a series of learning experiences and there is more to learn with another sign than your own, although some signs together can live very comfortable, but that is for people who want no change. Sometimes being with a sign that is not your direct match allows you to learn more and raise your consciousness in this life as you have stepped above your birth patterns. I think maturity and willingness are the answer. Peace all.

Geoffersonairplane
Mar 13, 2007, 10:51 AM
Try this guys and gals for a match comparison.

http://www.astromarkt.net/tablematch.htm

Geoffersonairplane
Mar 13, 2007, 10:54 AM
On the basis of that table, I am going to find a Leo or a Sagittarius..

Any takers p.m me for my home phone number.. LOL:p

talaniman
Mar 13, 2007, 11:24 AM
How about a Capricorn man and Gemini woman, more than 30 years trying to figure it out, gave up and just enjoy it.

tinsign
Mar 13, 2007, 11:39 AM
Well my sign certainly lol did not mix with the man I was seeing... gemini and capricorn

Wildcat21
Mar 13, 2007, 12:27 PM
Rol - I was never really into - but I am now and really believe it. There are just some sign I know I won't get alone with.

Skell
Mar 13, 2007, 04:02 PM
Well what about a Scorpio and someone who was born on the 18th April. See there you go, I don't even know what star sign that is! What is an 18th April person?

Geoffersonairplane
Mar 13, 2007, 04:13 PM
Well what about a Scorpio and someone who was born on the 18th April. See there you go, i don't even know what star sign that is! What is an 18th April person??

18th April is just about an Aries, so you are fire sign, if you were born on April 20th, you would then become a Taurus.

According to that table above you Aries and scorpio or a 150 match = Inconjunction = living separately together, on a particular item, you match O.K. but on another subject, you do not agree.

I copied that from the site above Skell so I don't fully understand what it implies but it kind of translates in my head to a 50% match... Bit of mystery for you I guess.

Hey, if you want Skell, you can marry my Sister, she is a Scorpio!

2 problems:

1.) She is already getting married this year so you would need to do it the Dustin Hoffman way in that film The Graduate.

2.) That would make you my brother-in-law and you might not be keen on that concept.. LOL

Sorry, feeling in the funny humour mood.

ordinaryguy
Mar 13, 2007, 06:05 PM
There is so much more to a birth chart than just the sun sign, so all generalities based on that one feature alone are inherently suspect.

A birth chart is a diagram of the positions of the moving heavenly bodies (planets plus sun and moon) as seen from the point of entry (first breath) on the Earth. The twelve constellations of fixed stars that lie along the plane of the earth's orbit (the 12 "signs") are the reference points for measuring the positions of the "planets" (including the sun and moon) as well as the horizon (east="ascendant", west="descendant") and the meridian (straight above="midheaven", straight beneath="lower heaven").

The usefulness of one's birth chart as a tool for self-exploration depends on the willing choice to treat it as a symbolic mandala that represents the sum of all possible challenges, opportunities, potentials and hazards afforded by this life situation. There is no necessity to make such an analogy, just as there is neither a guarantee nor requirement to manifest any particular one of the possibilities inherent in the lifetime. Hence, the sages say, "The stars inform, they do not compel".

The "planets" represent particular functions, urges, or aspects of personality (e.g. Sun=creative expression, Moon=adaptive capacity) that must be exercised in order to achieve a balanced, harmonious, and satisfying expression of the Whole Self within the constraints of time, space, and gravity. The "sign" location of each planet represents the style or attitude with which that planetary function is expressed.

The "houses" are twelve divisions of the circle that represent areas of life experience or stages of life and growth, and are actually far more significant than signs in interpreting a birth chart. The first six houses (starting at the ascendant, going counterclockwise) are below the horizon and represent inner experience. Houses seven through twelve are above the horizon and represent outer experience in increasingly widening social contexts (seventh=one-to-one, twelfth=cosmic collective). The house position of each planet shows the area of life experience where that planetary function is most active.

There is a whole field of astrological interpretation that focuses on interpersonal relationships (synastry). As you can imagine, there are myriad features and interactions to consider in looking at the compatibility of two people, and their respective sun signs are seldom the most significant or influential.

More than you really wanted to know, I'll bet. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Skell
Mar 13, 2007, 06:40 PM
18th April is just about an Aries, so you are fire sign, if you were born on April 20th, you would then become a Taurus.

According to that table above you Aries and scorpio or a 150 match = Inconjunction = living seperately together, on a particular item, you match O.K. but on another subject, you do not agree.

I copied that from the site above Skell so I don't fully understand what it implies but it kind of translates in my head to a 50% match....Bit of mystery for you I guess.

Hey, if you want Skell, you can marry my Sister, she is a Scorpio!!

2 problems:

1.) She is already getting married this year so you would need to do it the Dustin Hoffman way in that film The Graduate.

2.) That would make you my brother-in-law and you might not be keen on that concept..LOL

Sorry, feeling in the funny humour mood.

Im a Scorpio. A friend of mine was born on the 18th. 50% match hey? Interesting.

Your sister Geoff? Wow, thanks for that. Most of my mates always warn me to stay well away from their sisters or else. But you've offered me yours. Tremendous.

I bet she's great too. Her English accent would melt my heart.

No need to apologise bro. We're family... well soon anyway!!
LOL!

kaitou
Mar 14, 2007, 03:17 PM
I like this thread :).. too bad I'm a bit late in joining the dicussion.. but I found this a while ago

Horoscope Astrology for Lovers, Scorpio - Astrodienst (http://www.astro.com/cgi/aclch.cgi?btyp=syn&&cid=db6file96SMHA-u1168624161)

It's very detail, and in my case quite accurate.

Have fun with it! :)

Skell
Mar 14, 2007, 03:32 PM
That Scorpio description is me all over. Some of it regretfully I might add. But none the less what makes me, me.

Geoffersonairplane
Mar 14, 2007, 03:44 PM
I like this thread :).. too bad i'm a bit late in joining the dicussion.. but i found this a while ago

Horoscope Astrology for Lovers, Scorpio - Astrodienst (http://www.astro.com/cgi/aclch.cgi?btyp=syn&&cid=db6file96SMHA-u1168624161)

It's very detail, and in my case quite accurate.

Have fun with it !! :)


When I matched my ex to me to see if we were a bad match as she was a piscies and I am an aries, the descriptions of a piscies were more me and the aries was her..

:confused:

Perhaps I am a mixture of the two.. :rolleyes:

Geoffersonairplane
Mar 14, 2007, 03:50 PM
That Scorpio description is me all over. Some of it regretfully i might add. But none the less what makes me, me.


http://www.astromarkt.net/tablematch.htm

According to the table of matching above then Skell, a Scorpio and a Scorpio goes together as one... LOL

So, I guess that means you are compatible with my sister or indeed any scorpion, except of the insect variety.

My advice to you Skell is to find someone born between October 23 - November 21 and you are on to a sure winner>>>>I think..

kaitou
Mar 14, 2007, 03:55 PM
When I matched my ex to me to see if we were a bad match as she was a piscies and I am an aries, the descriptions of a piscies were more me and the aries was her..

:confused:

Perhaps I am a mixture of the two..:rolleyes:


Well I guess it's more accurate for some people than others. It applied so perfectly for me and my ex.

Skell
Mar 14, 2007, 03:57 PM
Ill be on QF1 (Thats Qantas Flight 1 - Sydney to Heathrow) at 6pm tonight. Give me 24 hours and ill be at your door step. You take care of the fiance`, and ill take care of sis.

Come to think of it, a few of the girls of gotten on with in the past have usually had a nasty sting with lots of venom.

Geoffersonairplane
Mar 14, 2007, 04:00 PM
Ill be on QF1 (Thats Qantas Flight 1 - Sydney to Heathrow) at 6pm tonight. Give me 24 hours and ill be at your door step. You take care of the fiance`, and ill take care of sis.

Come to think of it, a few of the girls of gotten on with in the past have usually had a nasty sting with lots of venom.


Bring your surfboard.

And can you sneak a baby Kangeroo through customs for me?

Not so I can eat it, I would like to have one as a pet.

Skell
Mar 14, 2007, 04:01 PM
The thing I find with stars is that people seem to want their stars to be true so much that they force themselves to believe it and apply to them. Especially the ones that are in the newspaper on a daily basis telling you what will happen that day. They are so broad that people read them at the end of the day and say "yeah that happened to me today" when the Star reads somehting like "you will find some people annoy you today". I mean who doesn't go through a day where someone gets under their skin. On the road, at work, in the line at the shopping center?

Skell
Mar 14, 2007, 04:03 PM
Bring your surfboard.

and can you sneak a baby Kangeroo through customs for me??

Not so I can eat it, I would like to have one as a pet.

Ill hide it in my pouch!! Anything else? Want some Vegemite as well?

And you at least have to spell it right if your going to have one as a pet. Kangaroo!!

Geoffersonairplane
Mar 14, 2007, 04:04 PM
Yeah, I agree Skell, that is why they are effective because they draw upon everyday general occurrences which the majority encounter and those that don't use something else in it's place justifying it as a mere distortion of the prediction. People buy into a lot of garbage these days but I am not ready to dismiss it completely and will always keep an open mind.

Geoffersonairplane
Mar 14, 2007, 04:05 PM
Ill hide it in my pouch!!! Anything else? Want some Vegemite as well?

And you at least have to spell it right if your going to have one as a pet. Kangaroo!!!

But we don't have them in the U.K as far as I know>>LOL so I don't get to write the word often.. :p

Geoffersonairplane
Mar 14, 2007, 04:07 PM
Ill hide it in my pouch!!! Anything else?

How about a Didgeridoo as well?

What is vegemite?

Geoffersonairplane
Mar 14, 2007, 04:10 PM
One of the fastest kangaroos is the gray kangaroo which can hop at about twenty-five miles per hour. By far the largest of them all is the sooty kangaroo coming in at six feet tall.

Geoffersonairplane
Mar 14, 2007, 04:24 PM
One of the fastest kangaroos is the gray kangaroo which can hop at about twenty-five miles per hour. By far the largest of them all is the sooty kangaroo coming in at six feet tall.

Sorry for going off topic there but I had to quote a Kangaroo fact because of Skell's intention of sneaking one through customs.

I wonder if the stars would have predicted that?

Skell
Mar 14, 2007, 06:04 PM
How about a Didgeridoo as well?

What is vegemite?

Ill get one of my indigenous friends to make one especially for you. Extra special bee's wax around the mouth hole.

Vegemite - it is something we put on toast. All poms and americans that come here either love it or hate it. It is an acquired taste but is quintessentially Australian.

Vegemite (http://www.vegemite.com.au/)

Its very good for you. Looks a bit like Promite I think they call it.

Skell
Mar 14, 2007, 06:18 PM
One of the fastest kangaroos is the gray kangaroo which can hop at about twenty-five miles per hour. By far the largest of them all is the sooty kangaroo coming in at six feet tall.

Ive never heard of a sooty kangaroo. If you were going to ask me I would have said the biggest kangaroo was the Red!!

Australia Zoo - Our Animals - Mammals - Kangaroos - Red Kangaroo (http://www.australiazoo.com.au/our-animals/amazing-animals/mammals/?mammal=kangaroos&animal=red_kangaroo)

You should see these suckers fight. Ever heard of a boxing kangaroo??

YouTube - Violent kangaroo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inN4Vx55dEk&mode=related&search=)

YouTube - Kangaroo Fight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxzlvMGOesQ&mode=related&search=)

rol
Mar 15, 2007, 02:39 AM
<<My advice to you Skell is to find someone born between October 23 - November 21 and you are on to a sure winner>>>>I think..
>.

its me its me! Lol!

AHH didn't realise you were the scorpio skell -
the strange thing here I'm seeing is a lot of supposedly opposite signs that were together!

water(scorpio) and fire (aries) direct opposites! Also case of geoffs.


capricorn and gemini!
Capricorn is someone who will stick with Gemini through good times and bad. This is a highly rewarding combination that combines intellectual curiosity with intense sexual chemistry. Capricorn is a keeper and Gemini should make sure they don't let this sexy sign get away.

Capricorn can teach Gemini the value of quality versus quantity. Gemini can teach Capricorn to learn more about maintaining a free and easy going attitude. Both can benefit as long as the desire and attraction are there.

Capuchin
Mar 15, 2007, 04:24 AM
Pffft, vegemite is a cheap rip off marmite.

rol
Mar 15, 2007, 04:46 AM
kaitou , that site was great, I'm scorpio also and it was so spot -on!

I loved what it said about my exes sign ha ha

Lots of people get hurt by Piscean partners - not because the sign is unfeeling or incapable of devotion, but because expecting them to say things like, "I will go on loving you forever!" seems nonsensical to a Pisces. But if you know enough of the world and of yourself to accept ebbs and flows in love rather than demanding stasis, then basking in the warm sea of a Pisces' affection can be the most healing and transformative relationship you'll ever have. Remember never to trample on those otherworld dreams and intuitive visions, or ever assume you've understood the complex Piscean nature completely. Just when you do, they'll change on you.

If you dislike change, choose another sign. But if you like unexplored regions, unclimbed mountains, tantalising futures that are shrouded in mist, and magic castles with unexplored treasures, then follow the Fishes through the ocean currents. Only don't think you've got one person. You've got everybody: a cast of thousands. What better way is there to learn about life?

kaitou
Mar 15, 2007, 07:31 AM
Seem like all the scorpio is the same... LOL because I'm a scorpio tooo, and it was spot on. My ex was a gemini, and it was spot on too >.>

rol
Mar 15, 2007, 07:50 AM
Ahh kaitou... go and help this guy out he's a genini dating a scorpio girl ;-)
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/relationships/whats-going-girlfriends-mind-71473.html

Capuchin
Mar 15, 2007, 08:00 AM
Ahhh astrology. The product of the collision between statistics and the human mind.

kaitou
Mar 15, 2007, 08:10 AM
ahh kaitou...go and help this guy out hes a genini dating a scorpio girl ;-)
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/relationships/whats-going-girlfriends-mind-71473.html


LOL rol, but I don't think I can help though hahaha..

All I can say is, I don't think I'll ever date gemini again. We scorpians tend to dive right into the relationship, and gemini tip toe to go in, and pull out very quickly.

I'm quite sad to hear aries and scorpio don't match though LOL, according to the site I went to, they match pretty well :confused:

rol
Mar 15, 2007, 08:16 AM
Yeah its strange as I get on very very well with aries also as friends !
Let me read your site again! Ha ha

kaitou
Mar 15, 2007, 08:18 AM
Maybe aries are just good as friends (I have tons of aries friends LOL), but not as boyfriends oO?

Aries a knight in shining armour. Scorpio and Aries = mind games all the time >D

ordinaryguy
Mar 15, 2007, 09:24 AM
Ahhh astrology. The product of the collision between statistics and the human mind.
Yeah, well, most of what passes for astrology in popular culture has little if anything to do with the subject, really. Astrology, Tarot, and many other "analogical sciences" have their place as tools for self-discovery, in my experience. It all depends on how they are approached and used.

rol
Mar 15, 2007, 09:28 AM
Oh yeah ordinaryguy, I meant to go back and reread what you wrote yesterday, it was too much information for me this morning:)

You seem to know a lot about the subject. How come?

Skell
Mar 15, 2007, 02:32 PM
Pffft, vegemite is a cheap rip off of marmite.

Don't you ever, and I mean ever, bad mouth vegemite like that again. ;)

Marmite... (shakes head in astonishment that such a thing could be said)

ordinaryguy
Mar 15, 2007, 03:20 PM
You seem to know alot about the subject. How come?
No mystery. I took the time to study, learn about it and apply it to my own life.

valinors_sorrow
Mar 15, 2007, 03:43 PM
My hubby is Nov 13th (is that Scorpio?) and I am a June 25th Cancer but the strange thing is we have never resembled any version of our signs that we've even encountered. I mean not even close!

ordinaryguy
Mar 15, 2007, 04:45 PM
My hubby is Nov 13th (is that Scorpio?) and I am a June 25th Cancer but the strange thing is we have never resembled any version of our signs that we've even encountered. I mean not even close!
Not strange at all. Sun signs are more often than not a relatively minor indicator of personality. Other features of a birth chart, especially the house positions of planets and relationships between them are usually far more significant.

Capuchin
Mar 16, 2007, 01:25 AM
Yeah, well, most of what passes for astrology in popular culture has little if anything to do with the subject, really. Astrology, Tarot, and many other "analogical sciences" have their place as tools for self-discovery, in my experience. It all depends on how they are approached and used.

It's useful in the same way as religion is useful. But it makes zero sense to me that your life is dictated by the position of the stars. Just as it makes no sense to me that there is a guy up there who can do anything he wants to with us.

I'm not deriding it as a useful practice that can give you faith and purpose. I'm just saying that it's rather obviously completely created by the human mind's ability to see patterns where there are none.

From a logical point of view it is useless. From an emotional point of view, it certainly isn't.

rol
Mar 16, 2007, 01:55 AM
Ahhh 2 water signs VAL, great match :)

wap
Mar 16, 2007, 02:49 AM
Hi guys, happy Friday : )

Yes, I am Leo :D

My famous ex is an Aquarious, does that spell disaster? Ha ha !

Capuchin
Mar 16, 2007, 02:52 AM
Pffft Aquariuses are great.

wap
Mar 16, 2007, 02:54 AM
Ha ha!

rol
Mar 16, 2007, 03:01 AM
HA HA Wap, just read aquarius man description the in theing kaitou put..
"But no one is more out of touch with his own feeling nature than the Aquarian man. He can be one of the most infuriating people you will ever meet when it comes to relationships. His coolness is infuriating - and deceptive. Remember that this sign has a lot of pride. Control of emotions is a big thing for Aquarians. No matter how much he's suffering, he will not grant you the satisfaction of knowing it.
You may meet the type of Aquarian man who simply refuses to discuss his feelings. Or he may tell you you're being emotional, irrational, or downright hysterical. He's often grossly hypocritical about all this, because when the tables are turned, he's as capable of feeling desperate jealousy as any Scorpio. But even then, he won't admit it to himself. He'll just suffer in silence and go all frosty and detached.

The only way to deal with this kind of Aquarian is to out-Aquarius him. That means challenging his beliefs, so that he can find out whether he really believes in them or not. It means being a little unpredictable yourself, and claiming your fair share of all that freedom he talks about so freely.

wap
Mar 16, 2007, 03:05 AM
Ha ha! Sounds like him Rol!! I think he is a lost cause ha ha! What about Leo?

rol
Mar 16, 2007, 04:14 AM
Leos often find it very difficult to share the stage. You're generous to a fault, but you can be insensitive to the emotional currents around you. And as for pride... Well, you invented the word. Leos are often deeply introverted, but you depend so ferociously on the love and acceptance of others that you'll do virtually anything to earn their admiration. It's really a problem of identity.

The big task which challenges you in life is the issue of who you are, why you're here, and why you're uniquely yourself. It's a lifelong challenge. If you can't muster the self-esteem you need from your own inner resources, you'll crave it like a drug from the audience. But the real journey is within, into the source of your own being. It's in the process of creating that you find your real sense of self-value. And the Leo who learns this, and lives it, is indeed heroic.

wap
Mar 16, 2007, 04:18 AM
Mm some of it is true, some not! Im quite happy for someone to be on the stage ha ha! I hate attention in crowds etc.

wap
Mar 16, 2007, 04:25 AM
Thanks Rol! Well, I have a big heart, I am certainly not insensitive!! Maybe it would help me more if I was!!

ordinaryguy
Mar 16, 2007, 06:28 AM
But it makes zero sense to me that your life is dictated by the position of the stars.
This is the popular conception of astrology--that the stars cause things to happen or require people to behave in certain ways or exhibit certain character traits. Even some astrologers still approach the subject from this point of view, but there is another way to do it that I believe is more useful. Here's how I described it in my previous post (emphasis added):

The usefulness of one's birth chart as a tool for self-exploration depends on the willing choice to treat it as a symbolic mandala that represents the sum of all possible challenges, opportunities, potentials and hazards afforded by this life situation. There is no necessity to make such an analogy, just as there is neither a guarantee nor requirement to manifest any particular one of the possibilities inherent in the lifetime. Hence, the sages say, "The stars inform, they do not compel".
From this point of view, astrology provides a taxonomy of personality and a vocabulary for describing and analyzing the process of growth, learning and maturation. It becomes a way to think about and become aware of the inner complexities of our psyche and the process that we go through as our life unfolds. There is nothing deterministic or compulsory about it.

valinors_sorrow
Mar 16, 2007, 08:10 AM
Not strange at all. Sun signs are more often than not a relatively minor indicator of personality. Other features of a birth chart, especially the house positions of planets and relationships between them are usually far more significant.
Thanks for that explanation, Guy! It makes sense and we've never had a full work up done since neither of us know the time of our births.

Geoffersonairplane
Mar 17, 2007, 05:04 AM
It's useful in the same way as religion is useful. But it makes zero sense to me that your life is dictated by the position of the stars. Just as it makes no sense to me that there is a guy up there who can do anything he wants to with us.

I'm not deriding it as a useful practice that can give you faith and purpose. I'm just saying that it's rather obviously completely created by the human mind's ability to see patterns where there are none.

From a logical point of view it is useless. From an emotional point of view, it certainly isn't.

Interesting... Most scientists dismiss religion as there is no real proof that convinces them. I respect that but I always say that it is important to keep an open mind, always as there may be things that science cannot explain or even provide insight. I use the word MAY because there MAY be things or there may not be things...

The important thing is to keep an open mind...

Kind of like what Skell was talking about the red Kangaroo being the largest of them all... I am open minded to that concept but I have not seen one yet so I am partially dismissing them too... LOL Just kidding, that is a rubbish example.

Geoffersonairplane
Mar 17, 2007, 05:08 AM
Sometimes there is half truth in something people believe in and the other half is based on sugar coating the truth or adding on things which help drive the belief system. This could be a fact with Astrology in that there is some truth to it and it must have derived from some reliable source but the truth of it gets misshaped in some way and therefore the belief system is driven by this misshaping because it makes the theory of it all more attractive.