Hey all

I am not sure whether I am being discriminated against or not so would appreciate your thoughts.

Background info: After I joined two new employees were recruited to build a bigger team. Both are in a senior role to me but we all report into the same manager - note I do not report into these two new co-workers. We all do the same work - i.e. they manage projects and whilst I am a supporting person my manager allows me to occasionally manage projects too as she knows I want to move up to senior role.

Issue: My (male) colleague had a meeting with me to feedback on issues in some work submitted to a client. Happily had the meeting and agreed to all his points - at this point he was not blaming me for these mistakes they were proofing mistakes not picked up by someone else and just want to point them out so I have no issue about this.

The following day he wants another meeting. I ask him what the meeting is for as I have a client deadline to meet by end of the day and I cannot guarantee when that work will go as it needs approval from senior directors. He won't tell me what it is for so I ask again and he refuses to tell me and in my opinion aggressively says to me book the meeting in (repeated this several times). At which point I gave in and booked one in - evidently I had to cancel it so I did telling him why - client work not finished. Client work went in at 5pm, he was in a meeting so I went to talk to someone just for a break as I didn't have a single break all day not even one for lunch. I come back after 5 minutes and ask both my colleagues including him if there is anything they need me for as I want to leave 10 minutes early to catch an earlier train as I would like to attend a family pre-wedding party. Everyone including him was fine with it.

After the weekend He asks me to reschedule the meeting when Im free - so I asked again just so I can understand how important the meeting is as I have a number of deadlines to meet today and tomorrow. No response so I set it up for Wednesday and straight away he is demanding a meeting today and then storms off our manager complaining. Manager moves a meeting I had with her to allow for the meeting to happen. In the meeting we finally have he says the reason I wanted this meeting was a red herring really because I really want to talk about our working relationship - I say OK, he starts saying I am disrepectful to him because I didn't have the meeting with him on Friday and it was important he had it Friday to clear the air about this issue he had about our working relationship and that I am avoiding the meeting. Goes on to say that he saw me milling about at 5pm talking to people and then left work early. I replied that I did not know the meeting was important and I that I had asked him what it was about because then I can prioritize my work against my other deadlines. He said I was unprofessional and reiterated that I left early etc - I walked out of the meeting at that point saying I need some air and that it it out or order for him to talk to me like this as he is not my manager.

My manager than brought us both into a meeting to air everything out - he said he felt I disrespected him that I left early on Friday when I knew he wanted a meeting and that I was milling about on Friday. I explained everything that I didn't know the importance of the meeting he wanted I had no idea he felt that we weren't working well and why could he not communicate that to me because had I known than of course I would have made sure I had the meeting with him. He goes on to say that I didn't say one word to him all day on Friday that I had shut down - I explained that I was focused on my work making sure I was doing it correctly as it was going to the client and that I had spoken to him but not as much as usual just because I was concentrating on making sure I didn't make a mistake. My manager said well you must make sure you communicate with him - I replied that there have been occasions when he himself has not spoken to me much for an entire day and I don't take it that he is shutting me out more than he is working. My manager does not say anything to him about making sure he still communicates. Basically I am not allowed to sit and work in silence if I am concentrating on work but he is. I don't understand why I have to make sure I still talk when I need to knuckle down and get some work done but if its someone else that is OK.

Additionally, my manager said that any meeting requested by a team member should always be considered important even if you don't know what that meeting is about - I can understand this if my manager asks for a meeting but a colleague? I mean surely if you have a deadline to meet your colleagues should be more than understanding and flexible with the meeting unless its important and how can I tell if a meeting is important if when I ask I am not told?

Following the meeting my colleague and I agreed to start on a clean slate and he went on to say 'I know I don't information with you'. Previously I have raised with my manager that he does not openly share work information when I request it - both times I was told it was the way I was asking and should change my approach.

Since this altercation my coworker no longer acknowledges me - when he speaks to me he avoids all eye contact, in team meeting he just acts disinterested when I am speaking, rolling his eyes etc. The other day we had a team breakfast and he would look at the person who was talking but when I spoke he would just look down or away.

I don't know how to proceed really - I want to tell my manager that he has said he won't share information with me but I feel that I will come across petty. I want to raise with her about his behavior in ignoring me acting like I don't exist unless he needs something, but I am apprehensive because I no longer feel she will listen. He is perfectly fine with my other coworker.

Welcome to the real world... first off... its NOT discrimination... its really not even a hostile work environment. Lots of us have had to deal with periods where schedules were tight and we had to find a way to fit everything in... even if it meant giving up lunch or staying late... I've had to do it not just dozens of times... but hundreds of times over the years.

You are salaried? Correct... so you should have found the time... did the meeting even if you had to skip lunch... or had to stay late to make up for the work and take a later train... (you only had the after work obligation ONE of those days.).

I am open to learning new ways of working so I will take on board your comment about the meeting - its just I thought that priortizing meetings against deadlines you need to meet on that day was important. There are plenty of examples where my coworkers and my manager constantly rearrange my meetings/ team meetings when there are client deadlines to meet - this is why I feel that it is unfair.

The discrimination and hostile environment query is more about how this coworker is now behaving - telling me he refuses to share work related information with me which affects the work I do is hardly conducive to a good team environment - actively ignoring me and refusing to acknowledge is exactly helping to build our working relationship either.

I am open to learning new ways of working so I will take on board your comment about the meeting - its just I thought that priortizing meetings against deadlines you need to meet on that day was important. There are plenty of examples where my coworkers and my manager constantly rearrange my meetings/ team meetings when there are client deadlines to meet - this is why I feel that it is unfair.

The discrimination and hostile environment query is more about how this coworker is now behaving - telling me he refuses to share work related information with me which affects the work I do is hardly conducive to a good team environment - actively ignoring me and refusing to acknowledge is exactly helping to build our working relationship either.

Discrimination would be because you were singled out just because you were female... or black handicapped or something like that.

And what you described is a high pressure work environment, not a hostile one.

If they were flat out calling you lazy and worthless... fat etc... or threatening to kick your butt that's hostile... but being handed 9 hours of work that you are trying to squeeze into 8 hours.. being expected to fit in meeting requests isn't.

Here is something I noticed, based on what has been written thus far...

There is no "I" in teamwork... sure you are bucking down and working hard to do your part... but you are neglecting the team part. Whiles its obviously not easy to do... you have to fit in meeting requests. Now there is a happy medium here, by not telling you its super important we need to do this in the next hour... ISN'T an invitation to blow it off for the next few days or so. Obviously per-arraigned conference calls with a customer aren't flexible... but the rest of that time for the most part can be manipulated... like I said, even if you had to stay an hour later and take a later train.

When you are salaried.. if you are thought to refuse to make the extra effort past the minimum hours, real or imagined... its going to reflect badly upon you.

Yes, I've been there before, many many times... I can't even guess how many lunches I've completely missed because I was at a customers office.. how many weeks I never even got to get into my office because of going from one customer to the next for days because If it stopped to grab a snack... I would likely run out of time and not get to a customer that day.

And I didn't have the luxury of just working later because these all had to be done at the customers luxury, meaning their normal hours. And we are talking customers that at one time were worth 17 Million dollars a month in revenue I was personally responsible for.

Yes... stressful was almost an understatement.

Don't look at what I said as criticism... it wasn't meant to be... just trying to demonstrate it could be way worse.

I agree, welcome to real life and how most work places are.

Your issue is you see the senior members as "fellow workers" because of their higher position while you don't report to them, they have much more importance and you appear to do work for them. Thus while they are not your boss, you do in fact work for them.

And they are not required to explain why they need meetings, and often to get work finished one has to stay hours latter in a real world work environment.
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You were totally wrong for not meeting with him that day Completely wrong for leaving early without talking with him first. Or at least ask your boss if the meeting needed to be done.

Don't expect work to be fair, senior members often get to be senior by walking all over the junior people. Thus real life

Thanks, I think it stems from the fact my manager made it clear to us all that we all report into her and that I don't report into my coworkers - there is no hierarchy that we are all equal - her words not mine. I guess that is why I am confused because this hierarchy in reality is being imposed by the coworkers but on the other hand my manager is saying that there isn't one and that we all do the same job - I carry out the same work that they do on top of providing a supporting role to the rest of the business.

Just to clear something up - I am not making a big thing about having to work late I have done it a number of times and have no issue - its more the fact that when I went to leave earlier I checked with everyone first if it was OK whether there was anything they needed from me. Now if my coworker wanted to have the meeting right then and there he should have said so instead of saying it was OK for me to leave and then complaining later that I had left early even though he agreed to let me leave.

I never ever leave early unless I have permission.

As you say Fr_Chuck, I say them as fellow workers and that is because that is what my manager has said to us all. I guess at least what I take away from what you say is that despite what my manager has said to us my coworkers so see me as someone who reports into them.

I have arranged fortnightly catchups with them as a way to build better working relationships.

I did raise with my manager once of twice about the fact that she has said we are all the same but I feel like I am reporting into the coworkers - she reassured me that isn't the case but reality is always a different situation.

At least I can now go to work with a better understanding of the dynamics and ensure that these types of situations don't happen again as I don't want it to effect my career path.

Yes what happens in real life is much different that what is told. Almost always.

You may think that everyone is equal... but as the new kid on the block, it doesn't work that way, the older more experienced workers are always a notch up on you, as you will be at some point when someone new comes in and expects the same thing even though their abilities are not up to everyone else's yet.

Its something that is unwritten, but almost universal in practice.

The new hire is NEVER up to the same speed as someone who's been there years longer. And thus actually IS less valuable and subservient to the more experienced workers...

You might not answer to them but you must defer extra respect to them. Remember one day YOU will be in their position.

You said that they are senior and you are in a supporting role. The fact that you all report to your manager doesn't mean that you are on equal footing with them. And when you had that first meeting about 'proofing mistakes,' you seem to say that someone 'didn't catch' the mistakes - but weren't you responsible for catching them?
I am a bit worried that you may be resisting this (male) colleague for the wrong reasons. He started just doing his job, pleasantly, and then you started avoiding him - because you had to know how 'important' his meeting was? Because you want to be his job equal? Because you don't report to him? You could be on your way to losing your job.

I see no hostility and no discrimination. You are dispensable, everyone is.

Hi smoothy

Just to clarify I was already working in my role for over 8 months before the two coworkers joined and they are younger than me but that is not an issue for me. Their age makes no difference.



You may think that everyone is equal....but as the new kid on the block, it doesn't work that way, the older more experienced workers are always a notch up on you, as you will be at some point when someone new comes in and expects the same thing even though their abilities are not up to everyone elses yet.

Its something that is unwritten, but almost universal in practice.

The new hire is NEVER up to the same speed as someone who's been there years longer. And thus actually IS less valuable and subservient to the more experienced workers....

You might not answer to them but you must defer extra respect to them. Remember one day YOU will be in their position.

Hi joypulv

My official title is bid executive and the others are bid managers - essentially our jobs are to assist directors in putting together winning proposals to win work from clients.

My role description is to support on bids and the rest of the business with queries relating to systems that support the bid process.

A bid managers role is to run the end to end bid management process.

When I joined I reported into a bid manager who then left, so subsequently I reported into the Head of Bids. Whilst they were recruiting for two new bid managers I was responsible for running the end to end bid management process for the business as I already have experience of doing this from my previous jobs.

When the two bid managers joined, the head of bids made it clear to us all that we all would be given bids to manage and that we were all on an equal footing - despite my title not reflecting that.

I did raise a concern that I felt the coworkers do not see me as their equal but I was told that they are not interested in what their title is or seniority they just want to work in a friendly team.

This one particular coworker - we got on well when he started I trained him up on how bidding works in the firm etc until he settled down. I have to manage the pipeline of work being done - this coworker has started to ignore my requests for information to add to this pipeline and after many months now admitted to me he doesn't share information with me.

I have nothing against him what so ever - not jealous of him hold no grudges etc. I wasn't avoiding him regarding that meeting I just had a client deadline to meet, directors were expecting flawless work from me and I was just concentrating on delivering that. He felt that because I had not spoke to him there was a communication issue and hence he wanted this meeting. This wasn't conveyed to me that this is what he wanted the meeting about so it is hard when you are up against a tight deadline where you know your work is going to be scruntised to death to take time out to have a meeting that on the face of it could have waited until the next day.



You said that they are senior and you are in a supporting role. The fact that you all report to your manager doesn't mean that you are on equal footing with them. And when you had that first meeting about 'proofing mistakes,' you seem to say that someone 'didn't catch' the mistakes - but weren't you responsible for catching them?
I am a bit worried that you may be resisting this (male) colleague for the wrong reasons. He started out just doing his job, pleasantly, and then you started avoiding him - because you had to know how 'important' his meeting was? Because you want to be his job equal? Because you don't report to him? You could be on your way to losing your job.

I see no hostility and no discrimination. You are dispensable, everyone is.

The fact remains that you aren't a bid manager and were for some reason passed over for that title when two new ones were hired. I can't tell if you are being unfairly expected to act like one without the pay and title, or if you aren't up to snuff on the job yet (hence the 'mistakes' you made brought up in that first meeting, which you felt weren't your job to notice).

Wouldn't this matter be something that you would address with the Head of Bids or whoever was responsible for putting you in an ill-defined role? Your definition of the two jobs is conflicting, with you seemingly doing jobs from beginning to end yet supposedly supporting the managers doing that. (And yet again, that 'mistake' that you felt wasn't your job to proof keeps getting glossed over.. )

As many here have said, what you are told about being a team on equal footing is often just soothing talk, while title and job description are what really count.

You are right and its now clear from hearing what you all say that just because it is said that we are all equal obviously in reality its not true - I just believed it because it was coming from our Head of Bids and obviously what she says goes. Well lesson learnt on that.

I wasn't allowed to go for the job because I had only been there for 6months when they advertised for the roles - they wanted someone who had law firm industry experience whereas my experience was from a different industry. I am OK about that as we did need people with experience of bidding in law firms.

I have expressed through my appraisals my desire to move up to the bid manager role once I have built up time at the firm - it is because I was left on my own and managed bids whilst we were recruiting that I have shown and proved I can do the end to end process. She allows me to take up any extra bids when the other two are overwhelmed with work but I know through their attempts to whisper they both don't like it that she does that.

That first meeting the bid manager had with me was to show me the mistakes the proofing guy had made and to agree how we would feedback this back to the guy. On every bid either I or the bid managers do we always have a 3rd person proof the bid and it isn't our responsibility - this is the process that is embedded and our Head of Bids always makes sure we carry this part out.

I have tried to address this blurring of lines of what I do with my Head of Bids, but she says after speaking to them both that they don't have any issue with me undertaking bids - but obviously they are not going to tell her the truth.

Thankfully I am now assigned two projects that are keeping me busy so naturally I am not being given bids to manage so it should ease any tension.



The fact remains that you aren't a bid manager and were for some reason passed over for that title when two new ones were hired. I can't tell if you are being unfairly expected to act like one without the pay and title, or if you aren't up to snuff on the job yet (hence the 'mistakes' you made brought up in that first meeting, which you felt weren't your job to notice).

Wouldn't this matter be something that you would address with the Head of Bids or whoever was responsible for putting you in an ill-defined role? Your definition of the two jobs is conflicting, with you seemingly doing jobs from beginning to end yet supposedly supporting the managers doing that. (And yet again, that 'mistake' that you felt wasn't your job to proof keeps getting glossed over..)

As many here have said, what you are told about being a team on equal footing is often just soothing talk, while title and job description are what really count.