How could I describe heaven and what it looks like?

Well according to the county western song, I understand it looks a lot like TEXAS.

But seriously while we have some examples in the bible, we have no real context to compare it to. And we have to look at the ideas of the New Jersulam that will come here on earth.

But the most important thing is not what the looks is like but what the love and the closeness with God will be.

None of us can really say for sure, but I prefer to think of it as the most beautiful place you could ever wish to see.

Heaven is not a place it's a person!! YES, I believe in Heaven, but isn't it more rewarding to know that you will be in the presence of JESUS CHRIST!!

How could I describe heaven and what it looks like?
Interesting! Heaven can in my opinion be the contrast to the worstest things in life. It's envitable as humans that we know evil and destruction and pain, just as the envitablity of hppiness. :-)

None of us can really say for sure, but i prefer to think of it as the most beautiful place you could ever wish to see.

That's most people view, but no one said that it IS how it looks like.. We stereotyped heaven, people question if we'll look the way we do, if wisdom will pass with us... I even wonder if I can play wideogames up there, but I guess God's grace and presence will be the only thing I'll need.

I think Heaven will be formed by the individual person. That person's deepest loves and closest people will be there. A land of the sweetst memories.. It will be the most inviting and comfortable place you could image. Full of beauty and overwhelming love.

Ask a child... with their purity and innocence, I bet they have a closer answer than any of us could come up with.:)

Interesting paradox, but heaven is probably so beautiful that we would kill ourselves to get there more quick.

NO

Probrobly the most beautiful place you can imagine, then more beautiful than that!

What does heaven look like.

The bible talks about streets of gold as clear as crystal and walls made of precious
Stones. More than anything else, heaven is a spiritual condition where one spiritual being is in touch with another spiritual being and there is total communication and fellowship.

Being in God's presence will bring an intensity of great joy that will far exceed anything we could know here on earth. Not only that but there will be no death or sorrow, or sickness or poverty.

The bible also talks about crowns and thrones in heaven. This tells us that heaven is not just a hugh democracy where there is no differentiation of function. There will be different functions and different levels of responsibility assigned to different people. There will still be levels of order and structure throughout God's universe.

We do know that we will be able to recognize our love ones in heaven and that we will
Experience great joy over being reunited with them. There will be an opening of understanding into all the secrets and mysteries of the universe. Also in heaven there will be no fear of any kind of evil and God will provide generously for His people.

What is heaven like ? It is better than anything any human being could ever imagine when he tries to picture the best thing that could ever happen to him.

Maggie 3

jade_delaney,
There is no biblical description of what heaven looks like but Jesus does mention some things about the Kingdom of God and what it is like to be there in some of His parables.
We know form scripture that there will be no given in marriage and that there will be no sadness only joy.
In it we will be close to the most beautiful person in the universe so I suspect thateverything else there will refelct that beauty.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

How could I describe heaven and what it looks like?

How on earth can anyone tell what the Heaven looks like? It is totally pointless to pretend to explain what Heaven if as much as it is also totally pointless to try to describe GOD in any way.

Nobody has seen GOD or Heaven and come back to explain what they resembled.

If anything, I would say that neither one can be described by men for lack of qualifying words. Most probably Heaven may be what we can experience when we are finally given the possibility of contemplating GOD in all ITS splendor and magnificence. The same as Hell is probably the knowledge that we can never see GOD.

And, by the same token, probably both GOD and Heaven and Hell are conceptually unethereal, that is they have nothing to do with our physical Universe, or in other words they occupy no space whatsoever but at the same time they are everywhere!

As I said we do not have the adequate words to explain and we DO NOT KNOW!

Gromitt82

gromitt82,
Keep in mind that Jesus told us some of what heaven is like in His parables.
BUT... not what it looks like.
Fred

gromitt82,
Keep in mind that Jesus told us some of what heaven is like in His parables.
BUT...not what it looks like.
Fred

Right you are! This is why I say that probably the mere fact of being able to visualize or contemplate GOD may already be HEAVEN! Regarding Jesus' parables though they were meant to be applicable to all of us for as long as mankind exists the examples and the language used were basically to make them understandable to those He was speaking to.

And when He says, for instance, "sitting next to my Father" that mus be a figure of speech insofar the Father, the Son and the Holy Espirit are a Trinity in One and Only GOD

Gromitt82

gromitt82,
Yes I understand that to be a figure of speech.
It's like speaking of the eye of God or the hand of God.
God the Father is spirit and thus has no parts.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

gromitt82,
Yes I understand that to be a figure of speech.
It's like speaking of the eye of God or the hand of God.
God the Father is spirit and thus has no parts.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

That is exactly what I mean. Some people speak of Heaven as if convinced Heaven occupies a place in Space which implies, I would say, that Heaven is a sort of physical garden of eden located in some far away corner of some far away galaxy.

I think this is trying to translate our earthly way of thinking along with our limitations as far as understanding what GOD is like but I think we should try to be more generous and consider that if GOD has created our Universe GOD mus necessarily be over and abobe it and so has to be GOD's Kingdom.

I do not even know what I mean to say. I get lost when I think of these incomprehensible matters... So I have to conclude that GOD and ITS Kingdom will ONLY be disclosed to us in all its splendor when we undertake that one way journey...

Gromitt82

gromitt82,
Yes.
I think that the kingdom of God is very spiritual, but it has the concept of we having glorified bodies such as Jesus has after He rose from the dead.
That does boggle my mind.
Apparently such person can appear to have physical bodies od some sort such as when such appeared as recorded in the bible, the men who came to dine with Abraham is an example and also when Moses and Elijah appeared at Jesus' transfiguration.Peace and kindness,
Fred

gromitt82,
Yes.
I think that the kingdom of God is very spiritual, but it has the concept of we having glorified bodies such as Jesus has after He rose from the dead.
That does boggle my mind.
Apparently such person can appear to have physical bodies od some sort such as when such appeared as recorded in the bible, the men who came to dine with Abraham is an example and also when Moses and Elijah appeared at Jesus' transfiguration.Peace and kindness,
Fred

GOD is, of course, almighty. If GOD is our Creator and the Creator of the Universe it must no pose any problem to mahe Moses and Elijah appear nest to Jesus in his transfiguration and let Jesus' Mother or some saints appear to us in their physical bodies. Which does not of course necessarily implies that our physical bodies should meet in Paradise as we are down here.
If, as in all likelihood, there are other living entities in our Universe (many scientists believe so right now) these forms of live do not have to coincide with ours but they have also been created -no question about that - by the creator.
And if they are capable of adoting GOD as we are they must have a soul like we do.
And if this is so, our should will not probably differ from theirs, which would -in my opinion- lead to believe that in Paradise there will be a gathering of Souls or spiritual forms instead of bodies.
It is a boggling idea, but not necessarily impossible!
Gromitt82

gromitt82,
As you say it is possible.
I'm open to any ideas on what heaven is like and what we will be like when there.
I just offered my thoughts on what I (at the moment) think about that.
Thanks for yours,
Fred

gromitt82,
As you say it is possible.
I'm open to any ideas on what heaven is like and what we will be like when there.
I just offered my thoughts on what I (at the moment) think about that.
Thanks for yours,
Fred

The point is that we might be talking about Heaven for ages and we would not probably get any nearer than what we are now of the truth.

I am convinced that even the most learned theologians have no idea whatsoever as to what Heaven is like. I guess it is the kind of destination they will only find out what it looks like (those who deserve to go there, of course) until our time has come.

I suppose that our own expectations and hopes induce us to prefer and share a certain criteria. In my case, for instance, I share the concept that Heaven is being able to see GOD at long last.

When St. John was in Patmos he had a dream he refers to in his Revelation, where an angel tols him that Heaven would be Zion. And he describes the size of Zion or New Jerusalam or Heaven as being 12,000 acres long and 12,000 acres Wide and 12,000 acres High.

Which, as you can imagine, it is just another idea quite adapted, however, to the time when John wrote about it.

Best regards,
Gromitt82

gromitt82 ,
Yes it is another idea and unlike the one which suggests that heaven is strictly spiritual.
Fred

gromitt82 ,
Yes it is another idea and unlike the one which suggests that heaven is strictly spiritual.
Fred


Absolutely. As I said there are lots of explanations but nobody knows for sure. It is beyond our capacity of comprehension. When we hear the scientists speaking about the size of our known Universe and saying it may have 160 billion light-tears wide our mind boggles, as you say.

Where could the Heaven be located if having a pfysical strcture?

Maybe in some kind of parallel Universe? Or in another dimension? Who knows? And. On the other hand, who cares? The important thing, I guess, is that those that follow Jesus' message and walk the line as He told us to, have been promised to enjoy one day this unknown Kingdom where we shall find the explanation to all the question marks that afflict us down here.

God bless,
Gromitt82

gromitt82,
I think that I must wait till I know for sure where heaven is and what it looks like.
That's something really worth waiting for.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Read Revelation chapter 21 & 22 It has a lot to say about heaven.
Read it, it is truth, if you can't understand it in your bible, get an easy reading
Bible and read it.
Blessings, Maggie 3

Maggie 3,
What you have found in Scripture about what heaven looks like is good, but what of those descriptions are really spiritual like the hand of God which is spiritual.
Perhaps they are descriptions of things glorified like our heavenly bodies will be after we pass over.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred, I think we have been given a little taste
Of what heaven will be like in our spiritual glorified bodies when the time comes for us to be there.
Maggie 3

THANKS Maggie 3
Fred

I think heaven will be infinitely better beyond our wildest dreams. We'll be experiencing eternal peace & enjoy with God. The kingdom of heaven is in a spiritual dimension. It's not a physical location.

Heaven will be a place where we will certainly live out our talents & gifts. I don't believe there will be a need for school in heaven. No military necessary. No law enforcement. No hospitals. There will be no need for work.

Mankind was created to enjoy God & His creation. Before the fall there was no need for work. Heaven will be a place where we understand more about the divine powers God has placed within us. We won't be bound by time & space. We'll be able to fly in our glorified bodies. We'll be able to speak things into existence.

We may even have food in heaven but we won't need it to survive. God gave us food here to enjoy so it's not out of the question we'll have food to enjoy in heaven too. Beyond that who knows what wonders God has to show us for all eternity? We'll never get bored.

So it's all that and then some, but you don't want to go?

Make up your mind.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/dont-want-go-heaven-415551.html

Stan20,
Thanks for you view of heaven.
I do think that God will have things for us to do, but what they are is a mystery to me right now.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

stan20,
Thanks for you view of heaven.
I do think that God will have things for us to do, but what they are is a mystery to me right now.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Arcura, read Stans other thread. He's not sure that heaven exists, and if it does, he doesn't want to go there. He'd rather just sleep.

I posted the link in my previous post.

Altenweg,
What make you think that stan200 does not want to go to heaven?
Fred

The link I posted Arcura.

This is a direct quote;


I am a Christian. I accepted Christ as my Savior back in 1998. Lately like over the summer I've lost the desire to go to heaven when I die. I'm beginning to even doubt there is a heaven but if there is one I don't want to go.

If it was up to me I'd like to just be put to sleep forever. Can a Christian lose his salvation if he decides during his life that he does not want to go to heaven?

Altenweg,
I think we were posting at almost the same time.
Immediately after I asked my question I got your message to me.
Thanks,
Fred

Jade,

The bible doesn't say too much about what heaven will look like.. we are told there is a street of gold like pure glass and precious stones. In fact we aren't even told really told to look forward to heaven... we are always told we will be with the LORD. Paul says for the Christian to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The Lord himself told the thief that hung on the cross... today thou shalt be with ME in paradise. So I guess my point is... who cares what heaven will look like? We won't... not with the LORD JESUS there... no way, no how! He is ALL we are going to be interested in. and... whatever the Lord has in store of us... psst... we won't be disappointed. ;)

Classy,
Excellent point, well made.
Fred

Fred,

Thanks! :)

Read Revelation chapter 21 & 22 It has a lot to say about heaven.
Read it, it is truth, if you can't understand it in your bible, get an easy reading
bible and read it.
Blessings, Maggie 3


I naturally respect your ideas about Heaven or rather St. John’s description in the Book of Revelation, chapters 21 and 22.
The difference between how I believe you – and St. John - look at this matter lies on the fact that you seem to consider God as a physical entity whereas I can only imagine God as a spiritual unit that embrace and surround the entire Universe.
Evidently, if St. John or anybody else have had any vision of God during their living existence it must have been in the appearance of something resembling a form they were able to understand or absorb. This was probably the case with Moses at the Sinai.
But this is only because our intelligence and capacity of understanding and comprehension is so limited that we can only assume earthly bodies.
But even with our limited intellect we should be able to understand that God must necessarily be something else, something like a tremendous spiritual power in order to have been able to build the Universe.
Otherwise, it would be kind of hard to imagine a nice and white bearded old man sitting in his Celestial Throne and greeting with friendly pats on the head all newcomers...
Of course, “God’s dwelling is with the human race” (Rev. 21:3). With the human race and with every other races that may exist in our Universe. Living beings are probably God’s second chef d’ouvre, his first “magnum opus” being, no doubt, our Universe. Because God embraces and surround all of us, as I said before.
But we must also bear in mind when St. John wrote this Book. He uses a considerable amount of representation so make his writing understandable to those who were supposed to rea dit, i.e. people of his time.

For instance, when he writes “I am the Alpha and the Omega” (Rev. 21:6) he is alluding to a figure of speech very understandable for those who spoke Greek. But not real! For God is eternal, which mean God has no beginning and no end. Alpha is the beginning of the Greek alphabet and Omega the end. Similarly, the “burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death." (Rev. 21:8) is a very graphic way of referring to the suffering implied in realizing what God is like but not being able to share God’s glory.

In describing the city of Jerusalem descending from Heaven John is only alluding to the Israelites. (Rev. 21:12-24). John could hardly refer to other people he had no notion of. He only says that “the nations will walk by its light”

Going by this description more or less literally, we should have to imagine that, at least, part of Heaven would be in the new Jerusalem.

In his Book, Johm gives us to understand that the end of time, or the Second Coming is about to happen: "Behold, I am coming soon." (Rev.
22: 7) - “the appointed time 7 is near” (22:10).
But, so far the Parousia seems to be far away, no matter what many believe...

(Rev. 22:19) “and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic book, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city described in this book”.

I’m, of course, not disputing the truthness of this prophecy. I’m just interpreting in the light of what St. John would probably write if he had to write his Book now.

To sum it up, I do not see here any explanation of what Heaven is like or of Heaven location.
Gromitt82

gromitt82,
I agree with you on that.
Notice the many old paintings which depict God in human form.
One of the most famous is very big on the celeing of the chaple in Rome.
Also I do believe that When God says the He is the beginning and the end I believe it to be of something like the universe or creation but not of Him.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

:)
gromitt82,
I agree with you on that.
Notice the many old paintings which depict God in human form.
One of the most famous is very big on the celeing of the chaple in Rome.
Also I do believe that When God says the He is the beginning and the end I believe it to be of something like the universe or creation but not of Him.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

In my opinion, that is the whole point. In very much the same way as Michael Angel felt he had to paint God as a powerful and strong middle age man mparting life to Adam, in his Creation of Adam, in the Sistine Chapel, for he could not in any way even attempt to depict God despite all his artistic talent ALL those who had tried to describe God in writing (whether Saints or else) have stumbled upon the impossibility to describe God'sobvious magnificence with words or in any other way.

The "Alpha / Omega" sentence has always been used -wrongly, I believe- to express an idea of something infinite. That is the idea St. John is transmiting in his Book of Revelation.

But, as you say quite rightly, it cannot really be applied to God. We should never - I think - forget that God is the Creator of everything. The Universe and whatever it may contain.

Now then, if the Universe we know - and we still ignore whether there are other Universes - is so immeasurable , with billions of galaxies, each one with billion of stars separated each other by bilions of light-years - and we believe it has been created by God, it necessarily follows that the Creator must be well over and above his Creation, to the extent that for God there is no time (past, present and future are THE SAME THING), nor space or distance. God is everywhere AT THE SAME TIME, has always been and will always be.

When we die, we shall all probably have a glimpse of God's Glory and those who deserve it will have the privilege of sharing a bit of that Glory -whatever it is like - forever. Whereas, those who must be punished, will not have that privilege forever, too.

This is what I believe could describe Heaven and Hell.

But using the concept of time in the Earthly meaning, in a few more years maximum, I shall know for sure as well as whether I deserve to be forever glorified or doomed. I'm hoping on God's mercy to go "marching in, with the saints"... :):)

gromitt82,
Yes, I wonder about how would an artist paint or draw a picture of a spirit creating something tangible.
I also thing that via the infinite and perfect grace and mercy of God you and I will get to see the Glory of God in heaven but perhaps after a stint in Purgatory.
Pax Um Biscum,
Fred

gromitt82,
Yes, I wonder about how would an artist paint or draw a picture of a spirit creating something tangible.
I also thing that via the infinite and perfect grace and mercy of God you and I will get to see the Glory of God in heaven but perhaps after a stint in Purgatory.
Pax Um Biscum,
Fred


In the best of cases I am already counting on a rather "long" stint in Pugatory. But what does that mean if we consider the final Prize!! :):)
God Bless
Claude

Claude,
To me the "Final Prize" is worth the wait and purification.
Pax Um Biscum,
Fred

Claude,
To me the "Final Prize" is worth the wait and purification.
Pax Um Biscum,
Fred

ABSOLUTELY!! :):):)
Claude

God Created Heaven first - then the other heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1). Watch how God Creates and you'll see that He first Creates space, then fills it. Heaven is large - very large. It contains God's Throne and all the angels He Created (10,000 times 10,000, and thousands of thousands - Revelation 5:11). The angels number in the hundreds of millions and many are very large. They would need a lot of room for their work and service to God. The New Jerusalem is about 1,500 miles high by 1,500 miles wide by 1,500 miles long and comes down out of Heaven from God (Revelation 21:2). A city of that size would fill up much of the United States and tower far above the International Space Station on its way toward the moon. Remember, that's a city that comes down out of Heaven toward the earth. Heaven is beautiful to behold. God used pure gold and extremely valuable jewels and stones in the Creation of Heaven. He used them in sizes and weights far above anything we have ever seen on earth. Heaven is filled with the Glory of God and the songs of His creatures. It is beautiful, powerful and filled with tremendous joy.

Dear McGee,
I am sure you realize that using the Scriptures in this particular case to describe what Heaven is like, is somewhat like telling children a beautiful tale to explain the Kingdom!
We cannot ignore the fact that the Genesis was supposedly written by Moses some 4000 years ago and S. John wrote de Revelation at Patmos, towards the year 60 or 70 AD.
In both cases, the authors had to have recourse to rather fantastic descriptions bearing in mind tha level of knowledge prevailing among the readers of those texts.
Trying to describe that the size of Heaven is more of less like the USA is equivalent to pretending that Heaven must be situated somewhere over our heads. Incidentally, what heads are we speaking about? Ours or the Australians?
Seriously speaking. Heaven or the Kingdom of God cannot be described by using Earthen terminology. Can we describe GOD? Can we pretend to know what Heaven is like and how many Angels are there?
Do you really believe that going to Heaven implies living a happy life for ever and ever, surrounded by angels playing nice music, among beautiful gardens and eating the most delightful fruits...
Because this is rather the idea Muslims have of their paradise by adding a few scores of beautiful "houries".
My own idea of Heaven is that the contemplation of GOD, in all HIS magnificence, will be the one and only source of a happiness beyond description for our souls.
Our ideas of space, size, number, shape, measurements, location, time, age, pleasure, etc. cannot have any meaning in Heaven. I think that the vision of GOD will completely surround us and we will not need anything else!
As for measures let us not forget that GOD created the Universe we know at present some 14 billion years ago!! Which means absolutely nothing for GOD has NO beginning and NO end. And what GOD created has no known limits to us; at least, so far.
Besides, how can you speak of people from our world only when there are probably hundreds of billions of galaxies with hundred of billions of planets that may contain some sort of living beings...
We have to be cery cautious when we speak about GOD and ITS Kingdom for we really know nothing about IT.
Otherwise, we may as well stick to ehat the Genesis also says about the creation of our World in 7 days...
Regars
Cromitt82

Greetings! Heaven is not the size of the USA. It is a supernatural place of size and dimension beyond our comprehension. An angel of God gave John the Apostle specific measurements for the New Jerusalem which will come out of Heaven to the new earth.

Salve! You are of course referring to what St. Joh is saying regarding his alleged vision of an angel that gives him the supposed measurements of the New Jerusalem.
We may admit that John had some kind of inspiration or dream that made him write what he said in this respect.
But, again, I must emphasize that whether a vision, a dream or an inspiration it was in tuning with the knowledge available to both St. John (who was more or less by himself in the isle of Patmos) and the people of the 1st century.
This could be a similar case to the Pentateuch by Moses. According to some exegetes it was dictated by Yahwe, and if this was actually the case, then Yahwe had to dictate points and data that both Moses and his followers could understand.
I cannot imagine Moses writing the Genesis and talking about the Big Bang and an Universe already aged some 14 billion years where our world is just like the most insignificant particle...
On the other hand, and as I said in my previous mail, you cannot speak of a "supernatural place of size and dimension beyond our comprehension". We cannot apply any noun to Heaven. We cannot refer to it as a "supernatural place" for we do not know whether it is a "place", as we understand it, or simply an abstract idea.
Talking about "places" and sizes is what the Greek did when they spoke of the Olympus and of the throne where Zeus was ruling our World from.
But GOD is not Zeus and HIS Kingdom is not the Greek Pantheon.
All that we should be interested in knowing about Heaven is that IT is the supreme reward we can expect to receive if we just abide by the "11" Commandments of the Law!
This is the message left by Jesus Christ and, if we have faith, we must believe it.
All the rest, does not really matters.
Gromitt82

Very interesting responses here. Jesus said "unless a man become born again he can not see the Kingdom of God...neither enter it" (John 3:3) Are you born again? If you are then you have the capcity to see the Kingdom of God, its not with your physcal eyes but spiritual eyes. God has already raised us up, and has made us sit togeather in Heavenly places in Christ!! I am so astounded at the doubt and unbelife of the Church today. Does anybody really believe the truth of the Bible? I don't think to many do. The Church needs to wakeup and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine on us!! Please... lets begin excercising our spiritual senses so we can see, feel, taste, touch, and hear God.s Kingdom today... Let us lay hold onto eternal life!!

Curtis

In John 3:5 Jesus goes on: 'I tell you the truth; no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.' Obviously, Jesus was not talking about a physical new birth, but a spiritual rebirth.
In a way, before we are born again, we are sort of walking corpses, spiritually dead. From outward appearances, we are alive and nothing seems wrong with us. But inside we are creatures of sin, dominated and controlled by it.
But, just as we cannot give physical birth to ourselves, we cannot accomplish this spiritual birth by ourselves, either. God gives it, but through faith in Christ we can request it.
After the new birth, our regeneration is so complete it can be described as nothing less than a totally new life in the spirit. The apostle Paul puts it this way:
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" (2 Corinthians 5:17, NIV)
The sad and amazing thing, however, is that throughout the 2000 years that have gone by since Jesus spoke of the “new birth” most of us, Christians, are still sinning despite having been born again spiritually.
And it is even sadder to see that, more often than not, throughout history, some of those who were to bear witness to Jesus’ Words (Popes, Cardinals, Bishops... ) are those who apparently could not care less about them!
In his outgoing address in front of 150,000 people in St Peter’s Square, the emeriti Pope Benedict XVI said there had been times when “it seemed like the Lord was sleeping” during his crisis-hit papacy.
Benedict XVI said there had been moments of joy during his tenure, but that “stormy waters and headwinds” had left the church in difficulty.
He was, of course, clearly referring to the indubitable struggles many Cardinals fight for more power within the very Curia in the Vatican.
Does it mean that these Princes of the Church do not really believe into what they are preaching?
The history of our Church is full of these indescribable behaviors (Dante wrote a lot about them in his Divine Comedy). But I would have said that in the 21st century we might have become truer Christians at that level.
Obviously, they still think they are in the Renaissance!
Shame on them! For they may have forgotten Jesus’ statement: 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.' (John 14:6:)
Gromitt82

If you are wanting a true answer then I can help. There is a lot of questions on this and most do not get an answer that is in any way the truth. When a minister talks about Heaven he is describing Gods Throne and where He is located. He is also describing a place to where they teach individuals will go when they die.

This is not true for Revelation Ch 20: states that God Kingdom will be on this Earth for 1000 years. Check it out;

"If you are wanting a true answer then I can help. :


Why is your answer more valid, more eduated, than anyone else's?

Do not believe me, check it out. That is the problem now, most want do that for themselves, what makes their minister much smarter than them. Check things out and you may find the truth. Jesus said to seek for the truth, not just shake your head in agreement and go on.

- assuming, of course, that you believe in Jesus.

JudyKayTee.

Believing in Jesus or not believing in Jesus is like believing or not in Lat Tse, Siddharta Gautama, Confucious. Mohammed or Napoleon, for that matters! All of them are historical personages whose life has been widely explained by learned historians. You are, of course entitled to deny Jesus as much as you are also entitled to deny Mohammed or Napoleon.

You may even believe they are all fiction characters due to exalted imagination of some writers who wanted to tell beautiful invented histories for their amusement. It is absolutely irrelevant, for the actual fact is that all these personages did exist.

On the other hand, discussing whether Heaven is up or down or the Kingdom of God is like the garden of Eden where God is sitting waiting for us to meet Him is quite pretentious in my humble opinion, although quite in accordance with men's arrogance.

We most often forget. When speaking of the Bible, the time when its Books were written and/or who wrote them and whom for. In actual fact, nobody down here can truly explain what Heaven is like and, actually, nobody came back to tell us about the Kingdom of God.
Only Jesus told us what we should expect in case we deserve to be admitted there.

The glory of the Kingdom of God simply lies on the contemplation of God. Just as Heaven is nothing but denying this contemplation.

What this contemplation implies or means is beyond earthy words or intelligence. It is a concept, like eternity, that we cannot even start to comprehend no matter how great our IQ may be.

How can we be so presumptous as to pretend we know anything about God or His Kingdom? We surely cannot expect the Creator of the Universe to be a good white bearded old man sitting on a golden throne like Jupiter, can we?

At least, this is what I believe, though I can also be utterly wrong..

Gromitt82

"Believing in Jesus or not believing in Jesus is like believing or not in Lat Tse, Siddharta Gautama, Confucious. Mohammed or Napoleon, for that matters! All of them are historical personages whose life has been widely explained by learned historians. You are, of course entitled to deny Jesus as much as you are also entitled to deny Mohammed or Napoleon.

You may even believe they are all fiction characters due to exalted imagination of some writers who wanted to tell beautiful invented histories for their amusement. It is absolutely irrelevant, for the actual fact is that all these personages did exist."

Just for clarification I meant "believe" as in "believe in/pray to," not "believe in he ever existed."

I was raised Roman Catholic. We prayed to God. The "movement," which is the only word I can think of to describe it, toward Jesus is foreign to me.

Your post is enlightening, non confrontational, very well stated. It's people who post with your information, attitude (I think) who create believers, who create discussions as opposed to what I call the "rabid faction."

Thank you for your well planned out and expressed response - and that's sincere.

You are welcome! And you are welcome too to any other subject of dicussion you may deem of interest as far as our own Religion is concerned. Do not take me wrong if I say that I do nothing but to try to understand myself the many things I cannot grasp and that confuse my mind.
But, as I said our intelligence is so limited...

Gromitt82

Thanks - I just may take you up on this offer -

Whenever you feel like. Let me warn you, however, that I'm an old goat (87), although without a beard, and, consequently, rather stubborn. I'm also Spanish which means Mediterranean, which imply a happier approach to life than Anglo-Saxons.
This said, I repeat, I am at your disposal.

Gromitt82

Freeman,

?? The 1000 years the Lord rules this earth has NOTHING to do with where people go when they die. I'm very confused by what you are saying..

Right now when someone dies and they are a believer they are with the Lord in heaven. Paul says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Now, how does that have anything to do with the 1000 year rule? I don't get it.

ClassyT

Be careful and do not take the Holy Bible literally, word for word. St. John wrote his Revelation in the isle of Patmos about the year 70 AD. It was surely more intended for his contemporary followers than for us... And only God knows when Jesus' Parusia will take place...

So take it easy and relax. Try your best to keep walking the line and hope for the best. We are not to tell whether we shall reach the Kingdom of God. And it is also irrelevant its location or whether physical or simply spiritual. None of us has the password to let us in for this is up to God to decide in Judgement Day.

Gromitt82

We are not to tell whether or not we shall reach the Kingdom of God.

John 5:24 "He that hears my words and believes on the one that sent me has eternal life, and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death into life." I don't know how you get around that. Or Romans 5:1 "There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

That's the biggest difference between biblical Christianity and too many of our denominations today. The biblical Jesus gives assurance that we are his, that we have passed from death into life, that we have eternal life and all the rest. Too many denominations overlook that part and keep people frightened that they somehow won't measure up. To me it's really a form of cruelty and a way to control people. Jesus says we can KNOW. Paul says that we DO KNOW. If your church says you can't or don't, you need a different church.

Freeman,

???? The 1000 years the the Lord rules this earth has NOTHING to do with where people go when they die. I'm very confused by what you are saying..

Right now when someone dies and they are a believer they are with the Lord in heaven. Paul says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Now, how does that have anything to do with the 1000 year rule? I don't get it.

Psalms 6:3-5 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long? Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalms 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish

Isaiah 38:18-19, "For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth."

I'm sure you're wondering. "Just where do we go when we die?" Don't go running to get this answer from your preacher, teacher, friend, pastor, or priest. Just go back in the Bible to find out. It is were you should always go when you're in question. However if you do at times have to go to a person for answers, always verify it in the Word of God before making any final decisions! Don't trust me or any man! Go to God's Word for the final answer and you will never go wrong.

Psalms 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

John 11:11-14... Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

The disciples thought when Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping that he would be OK. So Jesus had to plainly say "Lazarus is dead."

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep

I think that is proof enough that when one dies they will stay in the grave until the return of Christ. If one has gods Holy Spirit as they are quickened or that is preserved for that day.

There is no one in Heaven at this time except God and His son, Jesus Christ. There is more proof but I think this is enough but only if one has Gods spirit to understand it with.

Mr. Freeman,

Poppycock. The apostle Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. He himself couldn't wait to be with Jesus and said so in his epistles. Jesus himself said that God was not the God of the dead but the LIVING...

Well said Classy!

What is your explanation for 2 Corinthians 12:2?

Classy,

The biblical Jesus gives assurance that we are his, that we have passed from death into life, that we have eternal life and all the rest

Are you, by any chance, implying that because of that we can just do as we please and be guaranteed a first class ticket in the train to Heaven?

If you do, please accept my congratulations. Little old me, instead, share the strong believe that I will be more than lucky if I am allowed in the old caboose of the shabbiest train to Heaven.

Gromitt82

The one in 2 Cor 12: 2 was given an insight of what things will be like, he what he saw was a vision.


John 3:13


King James Bible
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Sorry, that is what it states.

Precisely. Here Paul admits he does NOT know. " I do not know—God knows".
And then it was just a vision that 2000 years ago, a man of that time, who had until recently been persecuting Jesus' followers, thought he had seen. Obviously, a man of the 1st century did not reason as a man of the 21st century.

And here again, John acknowledges that "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man"

Accepting this evidence,who are we to tell what Heaven is like and where should it be. We keep imagining Heaven as some sort of place, a paradise, but then how do we know it is not something immaterial, fully spiritual, as God itself?

Gromitt82

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Except that the last part, "which is in heaven" isn't part of the original, and isn't something Jesus said. It was added later by a scribe and found its way into the Greek text that was used for the King James. But John didn't write and Jesus never said it. He also said this before Paul's famous experience, so it has no bearing on the question of 2 Cor 12:2 anyway.

So I don't guess that you want any part of the Kingdom of God that will be set up on this Earth? Just exactly what is wrong with this God Given Earth?

So I don't guess that you want any part of the Kingdom of God that will be set up on this Earth? Just exactly what is wrong with this God Given Earth?

I have no idea what this question is supposed to have to do with anything we've been discussing. I'm with HH: it's impossible to have an actual conversation with you. So I'm done. You keep saying you're presenting the Scriptures; I point out an error in your analysis, and you go off on a tangent about this stuff. That tells me how well you (refuse to) take critiques of your methodology. There's no point in continuing this.

Nooooo kidding...

I do not mean to come across this way but it seems that there are many who do not read their Bible t get the facts.

What I said was that the Heaven that everyone is looking for will be here on this Earth and will be set up by Jesus Christ and will be ruled by His sons and or daughters who are the elect. They will be Kings and priests, helping in setting up God Kingdom on Earth.

Many prophecies point to this, then may be some of you do not believe Prophecy, I don't know.

I could quote scripture after scripture as proof and all that would be said is, where did you get that. Learn to read you bible.

Www.americasfinaldaysprophecy.org

Sigh...

Freeman,

What in the world did Jesus mean when he told the thief on the cross "today thou shalt be with me in paradise'? Hello?

Since the Lord's finished work on the cross we ARE absent from the body and present with the Lord. What do you DO with these verses?

Please explain them. Explain why Paul was ready to go be with the Lord Jesus and he explained that to depart and be with him was FAR better.

Please explain what Paul meant. Please explain what Jesus meant.

Dwashbur,

For the sake of debating the subject would you mind telling me who on earth can claim so categorically and definitely that Jesus never said this or that or that a certain phrase, word or paragraph was added or deleted by a scribe of some kind?

To the best of my knowledge in Jesus' time there were no tape recorders, which made quite difficult to record in some way what He was saying.

Whatever Jesus said or did was subject to the personal interpretation and explanation of those who were present. Those who bore witness of Jesus was saying, either orally transmitted to third parties what they had heard or remembered or wrote in Arameic, or eventually in old Greek, what they could remember by adding or omitting whatever they deemed it to be convenient.

The synoptic Gospels have a number of coincidences which may lead us to think they are rather accurate. But these are the Canonical (together with John's) accepted by Irenaeus of Lyons, in 185 AD and later on at the Council of Rome (4th century).

But they were not the only ones written and, therefore, they were those that would later on be translated into the Greek, Latin and modern languages and upon which the King James version is based.

But then, there are the Apocryphal (Infancy Gospels, Jewish/Christian Gospels, Gnostic Gospels, and a number of other Gospels and writings, all of which form the so called New Testament Apochrypha.

These writings have also been translated and should also be taken into consideration if we really want to depict Jesus' acurate profile.

As far as some of us are concerned the Canonical Gospels do clarify rather well Jesus' life so they are good enough for us. But we will never go to the extent of saying that "this is exactly what Jesus did or said" because we were not there and because there are, as I said, many other versions which may differ of what the 4 Evangelists wrote.

Gromitt82

He told the thief" today, I am on this cross and I am telling you at this time, that you will be with me in the Kingdom of God when that time comes. He just assured the thief that he, the thief would be in Gods Kingdom when it was established.

It's called textual criticism. Look it up; it's one of the most basic fields of study about the Bible, and especially about the New Testament. Go learn what manuscripts are, why we need to study them, and what the results are.

And please stop resurrecting 5-year-old threads.

As for your comment on the "today" thing, that is one of the worst approaches to Greek grammar I have seen yet. As if changing the English punctuation is going to alter the grammatical structure of the original? In the Greek text, "today" modifies "will be with me." If he had said "today I am on the cross" the thief would have replied "No duh, I can see that!" It's a meaningless statement that makes Jesus sound like an idiot, and it bears no resemblance to anything ever said in Koine Greek. Genuine Greek scholars have debunked this idea dozens of times in the past 50 years or so, because it's nonsense. It's wishful thinking. It's deliberate manipulation for the sake of a predefined doctrine. And it's wrong.

Grommit,

I am confused. If you do NOT see the bible as God's perfect word to us... why bother?

I am amazed at how accurate prophecy is in the bible. These 66 books were written by different people but the author was still the same. The Holy spirit. He inspired all of it.

Frankly if you can't know anything for sure, I'd say eat drink and be merry... who cares. At the Great White Throne I would plead that how could we know for sure any of it was true. I would also let God know there was no tapings of Christ.

The thing is... we could have actual tapes of Christ and his teaching and people wouldn't believe, They would argue his very words with his very voice. How do I know this? Because it takes FAITH to believe and there were plenty of people who witnessed miracle after miracle, teaching after teaching and walk away in unbelief.

The bible I believe by faith to be the written word of God and without error. Otherwise.. what is the point?

Freeman,

Read your bible. He didn't say any of that. He simple looked at the guy after he called him LORD and said... "TODAY you will be with ME in paradise" Today means TODAY.. clear as it can be and you would rather spin it to make your theology of slumber work. Well it doesn't work.

Explain the mount of transfiguration? How in the world did Moses and Elijah show up on the mount to talk to the Lord.

How did the witch of endor contact Samuel. Wasn't he suppose to be sawing logs? God is very much the God of the living. The only thing these dear saints are waiting for is to ge their new bodies. Now if you want to say their bodies are "asleep" FINE. But their soul and spirit are very much alive and the bible teaches just that.

It's called textual criticism. Look it up; it's one of the most basic fields of study about the Bible, and especially about the New Testament. Go learn what manuscripts are, why we need to study them, and what the results are.

And please stop resurrecting 5-year-old threads.

As for your comment on the "today" thing, that is one of the worst approaches to Greek grammar I have seen yet. As if changing the English punctuation is going to alter the grammatical structure of the original? In the Greek text, "today" modifies "will be with me." If he had said "today I am on the cross" the thief would have replied "No duh, I can see that!" It's a meaningless statement that makes Jesus sound like an idiot, and it bears no resemblance to anything ever said in Koine Greek. Genuine Greek scholars have debunked this idea dozens of times in the past 50 years or so, because it's nonsense. It's wishful thinking. It's deliberate manipulation for the sake of a predefined doctrine. And it's wrong.

You know exactly what I am talking about with you Greek degree and all. Jesus told him on that day as they both were on the cross that he, the thief would be in the Kingdom of God later. Jesus did not go anywhere that day, it would be 3 days and 3 nights later because the angles said he was still in the tomb.

Jesus spoke about a CERTAIN ( meaning he was real person) named Lazarus and a rich man. They both died... one went to a place of torment, Lazarus to a place of rest ( paradise) a great gulf was between them. My Lord and savior truly DID go somewhere that day he gave up his spirit on the cross and that is exactly where Mr. Thief went as well. The Lord's body was in the tomb... but he was very much alive. I believe after he rose from the dead he ushered the saints that were in the resting, peaceful place ( paradise) to the Father in heaven. But ONLY after he sprinkled his own blood on the Holy of Holies. Paradise is now empty... having said that the place of torment still exsists. I don't know Greek but I know that much

You know exactly what I am talking about with you Greek degree and all. Jesus told him on that day as they both were on the cross that he, the thief would be in the Kingdom of God later. Jesus did not go anywhere that day, it would be 3 days and 3 nights later because the angles said he was still in the tomb.

Apart from the fact that much of that doesn't make sense, I told you the Greek grammar REQUIRES that "today" modifies "you will be with me" and not "I say to you." Show me any other instance in ancient literature where someone makes a statement like "I say to you today." Well, no duh, you're saying it today. As if someone would say "I say to you day after tomorrow"? It's not only bad Greek grammar, it's substandard English grammar. It's not something people of that time said, because they didn't talk like blithering idiots. Here's the conversation:

"Lord, remember me WHEN you come into your kingdom."

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth. TODAY you will be with me in paradise."

When am I coming into my kingdom? Today. This stuff happening right now bites the big one, but it won't last long. Just hang on, it's going to get better. And it'll get better today.

ἀμήν σοι λέγω, σήμερον μετ̓ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ

There's what he said. Luke 23:43. ἀμήν σοι λέγω "truly to you I say" is a literal translation. It's a common formula that Jesus used a lot. Without any modifiers like "today" or "to your face" or "so's your mother." It's a basic introductory phrase.

σήμερον

The word in question. It means "today."

μετ̓ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ "With me you will be in Paradise." See, it works like this: we have two modifiers, "today" (adverb) and "with me" (prepositional phrase), right together, one right after the other. In typical Greek, they go together as well: "Today with me you will be." If you are going to try and say that "today" belongs with "truly I say to you," then you've got to take "with me" as well. That yields the delightful "Truly, I say to you today with me..." Needless to say, that doesn't make sense. Then again, neither does "truly I say to you today."

That's the explanation based on the Greek grammar of the time and place. Let's hear yours, and don't forget to tell what it's based on.

Apart from the fact that much of that doesn't make sense, I told you the Greek grammar REQUIRES that "today" modifies "you will be with me" and not "I say to you." Show me any other instance in ancient literature where someone makes a statement like "I say to you today." Well, no duh, you're saying it today. As if someone would say "I say to you day after tomorrow"? It's not only bad Greek grammar, it's substandard English grammar. It's not something people of that time said, because they didn't talk like blithering idiots. Here's the conversation:

"Lord, remember me WHEN you come into your kingdom."

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth. TODAY you will be with me in paradise."

When am I coming into my kingdom? Today. This stuff happening right now bites the big one, but it won't last long. Just hang on, it's gonna get better. And it'll get better today.

ἀμήν σοι λέγω, σήμερον μετ̓ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ

There's what he said. Luke 23:43. ἀμήν σοι λέγω "truly to you I say" is a literal translation. It's a common formula that Jesus used a lot. Without any modifiers like "today" or "to your face" or "so's your mother." It's a basic introductory phrase.

σήμερον

The word in question. It means "today."

μετ̓ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ "With me you will be in Paradise." See, it works like this: we have two modifiers, "today" (adverb) and "with me" (prepositional phrase), right together, one right after the other. In typical Greek, they go together as well: "Today with me you will be." If you are going to try and say that "today" belongs with "truly I say to you," then you've got to take "with me" as well. That yields the delightful "Truly, I say to you today with me..." Needless to say, that doesn't make sense. Then again, neither does "truly I say to you today."

That's the explanation based on the Greek grammar of the time and place. Let's hear yours, and don't forget to tell what it's based on.

That is fine, with all your knowledge and expertise see it as you will, but I can tell you that scripture proves that NO ONE is in Heaven except God and His Son is on His right side. Show me different.

That is fine, with all your knowledge and expertise see it as you will, but I can tell you that scripture proves that NO ONE is in Heaven except God and His Son is on His right side. Show me different.

Seriously? That "knowledge and expertise" enables me to see it the way it IS, not the way I want it to be. It makes no difference to me one way or the other whether "absent from the body" is "present with the Lord" or there's a "soul-sleep" type unconsciousness until resurrection, because there would be no sense of time passing anyway. So I don't have any particular dog in this fight, because either way, I end up living forever with Jesus, and that's good enough for me.

As for your last statement, show you different? I just did. Clearly, you weren't paying attention. T has shown you passage after passage, including the story of the rich man and Lazarus, Paul's many statements that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and all the rest. We have both shown you different many times, with legitimate analysis of the Scriptures. And just like above, when we do, you try to change the subject rather than deal with the passages in question. If you really believe that my "knowledge and expertise" just enables me to see it the way I want, then explain to me, using the actual history and behavior of the Greek language, why your approach to the verse above is correct and mine is wrong. Instead of dodging the subject, how about you deal with it head-on and show me where my grammatical analysis is wrong?

ClassyT

I see the Bible as a set of books transmitting what the writers thought to be oral traditions and messages which were necessary to keep people walking the line and believng in the one and only God there is. This applies to the O.T.

As for the N.T. the Gospels are supposed to be the Word of Jesus, although we cannot be sure that they relate with 100% exactitude what Jesus said or did. This for a very simple reason. The Gospels we have ARE NOT the only ones written or transmitted. However, I truly believe the essential part of Jesus' messages is clearly spelled out in ALL of them.


When you say the Spirit inspired the O.T. you are accepting the same principle as the Jews who claim the Torah was inspired to Moses by Yahveh and/or the Muslims who claim that Allah practically dictated the Koran during Mohammed voyage to Heaven. Incidentally, whether we say God, Yahveh or Allah, we are always referring to the same one and only Lord.

Nevertheless, this statement cannot be proved and to the best of my knowledge the Church does not consider it a dogma. If you want to believe it, it is perfectly fine.

The Faith we need to deserve Salvation is the faith to believe in Jesus' Words and in Jesus' message of love.

Particularly this last one. The 11th Comandment. "Love one another as I have loved you"...

This one is the most important one because if you fulfill it you automatically fulfil the other 10.

And I'm ashamed to say that I DO NOT FULFILL IT. For I read what is going on in our world and it leaves me rather cold when I should set out to try to do something about it.

My heart tells me all the time what I should do but my head suggests just as often that I'm too old to attempt anything.

Most of us expect our Lord to pat us on the back and tell us we did a grand job while down here. But did we actually?

Gromitt82

Lazarus and the Rich Man:

There are some who defend this story as an actual historical event by saying that, "There is no reason why this could not be a true story." However, I believe that an unbiased examination of this story reveals that it is a parable, and that there are many reasons it could not be an actual narrative detailing punishment of sinners going on in hell at that time.

As a literal event, this story brings us to many absurd conclusions. For example, without symbolism, it implies that the rich man went to hell because he was literally clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day. There is no mention of him committing sin in any way, or even of being uncharitable to the beggar. It simply states that he had his riches in this world, and the beggar has his in the next. It also implies that Lazarus was blessed because he was at the rich man's gate, full of sores, and begging crumbs while the dogs came and licked his sores. If all this indeed were to be interpreted as a literal narrative, the only conclusion that we could draw based on what's written here, is that beggars and them who have sores, go to heaven, and anyone wearing fine linen colored purple or who is rich and has means, are destined for torment in hell! Of course, that makes no sense, but without a symbolic meaning, this is the only conclusion from the passages we can reach. But the Bible shows us that many righteous men were very rich. Righteous Joseph, the son of Israel, held the treasures of the Pharaoh, giving to whom he would, and was arrayed like a royal prince [1] as second man in the realm. Again, righteous Job was God blessed and a God-fearing man, and yet he was also so rich[2], with as many as 7,000 animals, he was spoken of as was the greatest of all the men of the east. Moreover:

Freeman4

Perhaps you would like to read Luke 18:25 when quoting Jesus saying "Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

Clear enough, is not it?
Gromitt82

Freeman4

Perhaps you would like to read Luke 18:25 when quoting Jesus saying "Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

Clear enough, is not it?
Gromitt82

Because a person has money or is rich is no reason for them to not be in Gods kingdom. In Jerusalem there are gates that are called the needles eye. For a camel to go through a gate they may have to shed some of their load so they will be able to go through. That could be the case of some rich individuals, they may have to give a little so to say.

Grommitt,

REALLY? All the Lord meant is that many rich people have money and don't see their need for HIM. Having said that he didn't say it was impossible. In fact he didn't even say there wouldn't be many rich people there... he said it wasn't as easy. But then he also said... with God ALL things are possible. So the rich, the poor will all be there.

Grommitt,

REALLY? All the Lord meant is that many rich people have money and don't see their need for HIM. having said that he didn't say it was impossible. In fact he didn't even say there wouldn't be many rich people there...he said it wasn't as easy. But then he also said ...with God ALL things are possible. So the rich, the poor will all be there.

You are so right.

Freeman & ClassyT

Whatever you say! Perhaps you belong to the small minority of people who deserve being treated as "rich". If that is the case, my heartily congratulatiions.

Incidentally, Mr. Slim, Mr. Buffet and/or Mr. Gates, when they pass away they will have to leave behind their colossal fortunes, so perhaps they should be thinking of sharing part of them with those who have nothing..

Gromitt82

Grommit,

The Lord is not interested in our checking accounts but rather our heart and whether we have accepted him. There will be plenty of poor people lost without Jesus. What does money have to do with salvation?

My goodness, Jesus died to give us life and life more abdudently. If God spared not his own son how shall he not with that FREELY give us all things. He blesses many people with money and I believe wants none of us to struggle in finance. We can't bless others if we are broke all the time. But that is neither here nor there.

I would rather be rich spiritually. If the Lord should bless me with cash flow, let me tell you mista... I wouldn't cry. It isn't money that is the root of all evil but RATHER the LOVE of it.

As far as Mr. Slim ( don't know who that is), Mr. buffet and Mr. Gates goes... they have the same choice as any of us. The must answer the same question. What will they do with Christ. If the rich can't enter than God is not just. Last time I checked my bible,. it states that God is NO respecter of persons. We entered the world with zippo will leave the same. That's my take

As a literal event, this story brings us to many absurd conclusions. For example, without symbolism, it implies that the rich man went to hell because he was literally clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day.

That's not what it says. It's strongly implied that he knew who Lazarus was but didn't particularly care; he let this beggar be miserable and die from festering sores when it was easily within his power to alleviate the man's suffering. When he gets his comeuppance, who does he call for? Lazarus! Abraham tells him, remember how it was before? He was miserable and you did nothing. But now that you're the one who's miserable, suddenly he's your good buddy.

And you're forgetting one very important fact about parables: they don't use names. The fact that this story uses a person's name is solid evidence that it's not a made-up story like the parables. If it doesn't agree with your doctrines, it's your doctrines that need work, not the biblical text.

That's not what it says. It's strongly implied that he knew who Lazarus was but didn't particularly care; he let this beggar be miserable and die from festering sores when it was easily within his power to alleviate the man's suffering. When he gets his comeuppance, who does he call for? Lazarus! Abraham tells him, remember how it was before? He was miserable and you did nothing. But now that you're the one who's miserable, suddenly he's your good buddy.

And you're forgetting one very important fact about parables: they don't use names. The fact that this story uses a person's name is solid evidence that it's not a made-up story like the parables. If it doesn't agree with your doctrines, it's your doctrines that need work, not the biblical text.

There are a lot of individuals who may not have riches but think they are rich just the same. Riches can be measured in many different forms. Rich in health, in happiness and much more. One can have nothing and to him he may be the richest man in the World because of what he does have. He is probably happier than many a rich man.

If it doesn't agree with your doctrines, it's your doctrines that need work, not the biblical text.

The sad part is most people would rather bend scripture to what they want it to say... regardless of context of common sense.

Yet again, freeman4, your response has nothing whatsoever to do with what I wrote.

I do not thank you know what you wrote.

ClassyT

He blesses many people with money and I believe wants none of us to struggle in finance. We can't bless others if we are broke all the time.

BTW. Mr. Slim happens to be a Mexican who is the wealthiest man in the world according to Fortune magazine.

I'm amazed at how some of you people seem to have a direct line of communication with God, who tells you what is right to say and that you are doing fine.

Your expression "He blesses many people with money" implies a certitude that you know for sure what God does and/or does not. Congratulations, you must be very fortunate, indeed.

Because, little old me, from the perspective that my 87 years give me, I only recall spending my life begging God to forgive my countless sins with the hope that when doomsday come it does not find me with a negative balance. It seems that God has never considered me as a worthy interlocutor and therefore has not deemed it worthwhile to keep me abreast of Its designs. As far as I am concerned God's designs are inscrutable...

Incidentally, if sometimes I use the neutral gender when referring to God is because in my ignorance I cannot imagine God as a person of any kind. In any case, I doubt we can apply to God any earthy adjective without running the risk of being wrong.

Gromitt83

I do not thank you know what you wrote.

Ignoring "thank," let me lay it out for you then. I commented in interpretation of the story of the rich man and Lazarus. That's what we were talking about; you commented on it and I responded with more about that same topic. From there you went here:


There are a lot of individuals who may not have riches but think they are rich just the same. Riches can be measured in many different forms. Rich in health, in happiness and much more. One can have nothing and to him he may be the richest man in the World because of what he does have. He is probably happier than many a rich man.

Which clearly has nothing at all to do with what I wrote about the biblical story, and I said so.

Does that clear it up? It would indeed appear that one of us has no idea what he is writing, but I don't seem to be the one in that state.

Ladies and gentlemen,

The KJV of Luke 2:14 goes "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men".

This is not Xmas time, but I think the saying appies for I detect that some of you are somewhat favorable to dialectic and polemical struggles...

You sort of remind me of the old Westerns I used to see when I was youg and handsome, where it was a matter of who could draw the gund faster to shoot the other party.

Incidentally, those were the days when General Sheridan in Fort Sill supposedly uttered the words "The only good Indians I ever saw were dead."

And he was supposed to be a pious Christian..

Gromitt82