We have been having trouble for over a year with our water. We bought a brand new pump 3/4 horsepower. We have an above ground spring fed well about 450 feet away. We bought all new 1 inch pipe. The lift from well level to house level is less than 15 feet. The water runs up to the house, but does dip down about 3 feet and then up about 5 feet at the house, we dug out a trench and most of the line is on top of the ground, but goes down into the trench to come in the house. It will pump forever and give water, but not shut off. When it gets to where it should shut off, it bounces around and sucks back about 10 lbs and goes back up to where it shuts off and bounces back 10 lbs and runs again. When you unplug it it goes back to 0... but pumps up right away when plugged in. I have always told my husband that it needs to be wired differently... it is wired to heavy wire, but then that wire is plugged into about a 25 foot extension cord. It is then plugged into a receptacle... I have always said maybe all our problems are electrical, but husband does not agree.

Do you have a pressure tank on this system? I'm guessing there is not, since the pressure should not be at zero even when the pump is unplugged. If you don't have a pressure tank, then that is probably your problem.

Is this a 120 volt pump or 240 volt?

Sorry, but I don't think the electrical is your problem, even though the extension cord deal is not the ideal arrangement.

It has a pressure tank 6.6 gallon US one. It is going just down to 10 lbs pressure now when unplugged. It is a convertible 120 to 240 tank set at 120 right now. It will go up to shut off when running, then hit the shut off, shut off for a millisecond then bouce back to 40 lbs... it is set for 40-60 I think... not sure... will run down and check

I'd do two things.

1. I'd put a larger tank on the system (optional).
2. I'd put a checkvalve between the house and the pressure tank, located just a foot or two from the tank. That will prevent the water trying to run back from the house to the tank. With such a small tank, it wouldn't take much to boost the pressure up.

Should mention one more thing. The tank should have a little air valve up at the top, like a tire air valve. Depress the valve stem a few seconds. You should get air only. Any water means the tank is bad.

If the tank is good, then reset the pressure in the tank. You do this by opening a faucet to drain pressure down to zero (with the pump unplugged). Now set the pressure at the top of the tank to two pounds BELOW the point at which the pump cuts on. So in your case, if that is 40 pounds, then set your tank pressure to 38 pounds.

The fact that the pump can shutoff at sixty pounds, then drop so quickly down to ten pounds, makes me want to check out the tank.

The pump and pressure tank are in the house, so you would put a check valve on the outlet? The pump is sitting on top of the pressure tank... would you mean a check valve on the pipe coming into the house from the spring, or the pipe going out of the pump to run water into my house... wouldn't water running back into the tank INCREASE the pressure? I thought it was going back into the pipe coming in from the spring, that is what it sounds like.

Nope. Misunderstood. Put the CV on the pipe coming into the house from the well. I thought the pump was outside the house with a fairly long run to the house.

Do you have a footvalve at the spring?

Yes there is a foot valve in the spring, we originally pumped the foot valve to fill the pipe, but had to fill from the top too. There is no air showing now, as I can start unscrew the little priming plug and no air comes out... The footvalve was working all winter in a barrel in the house with a short pipe and the pump that died. Does voltage matter? It is set to the lower voltage now... So its drawing it that distance. It would pump forever with water running, does not loose any pressure, when we unplug it, it goes down to 10. Then plug it back in it goes right up to the shut off point, but bounces there, so will not actually shut off, at 50

Just saw your message about the tank. I don't know at where it turns on, because it looses down to 10 when unplugged and runs as soon as its turned on... it will jump down from 50 to 40 when it touches 50 and shuts of for just a millisecond... then falls back to 40 and bounces down up to 50... so we unplug it and it goes to 10.

Well, the CV is a cheap idea to try. If the pressure gauge is "bouncing", then water has to be going somewhere. 400 feet of pipe to the spring would be a lot. I'd try it.

Running the pump at 120 seems to be working for you so I wouldn't change it.

With such a small tank, and you have a REALLY small one, I would think that these problems would be really amplified as opposed to having a thirty or forty gallon tank.

Our previous was a 20 gallon we had on for years. We bought this pump brand new in box, that had been setting for 2 years, is it very hard to change pressure tanks? We could try our old tank... might be what we need.

Try the CV first. Much easier. As far as the tank goes, you could change it. Not real hard UNLESS the pump and tank are made as one unit.

They probably are, we bought it that way, UGGG!! LOL. I will get a check valve, I am sure there is one SOMEWHERE that I bought and never installed but cannot find it. Hubby does not want to frig with cutting into the line, but we have room to play and can just add it to the end of the pipe, then get another piece of pipe to put on to join to the pump.

I checked the pump is bolted onto the pressure tank and it should be able to be removed. We have the larger tank here.

Assuming there is a pipe going from the pump to the pressure tank, you could probably just replumb it to your other tank. In fact, you can try simply adding the second tank into the line between the small tank and the house. That has been know to cause some problems with water wanting to "bounce" between the two tanks, but it might be worth a try. You could certainly put a CV between the two tanks if need be.

But I'd sure put a CV in the line coming into the pump. Make sure you get it pointed in the right direction. A CV is a one-way gate, so if you put it on backwards, it won't allow water to flow to the pump.

I'd put a checkvalve between the house and the pressure tank,
Well it took jllisenbebe a while to get to it but I agree, I don't think the bladder tank has a thing to do with the gage dropping to zero. However I would place the check valve just downstream from the pump between the pump and the well. While a check valve placed between the pump and the house will maintain the house pressure, (until you make a draw) It will not prevent the pump and tank from losing pressure. Install the check valve between the pump and the well. Good luck. Tom

Okay so hubby checked the pressure tank and it only had 10 lbs, and he was adament he would NOT put a CV on, that the tank would be the problem, I said should still have one. He had it all to the right pressure and still not staying off. We then put the CV on and low and behold it would pump up and shut off! Yeah, but he cannot run a lot of water it can't keep up the water has to be running really low to fill our 45 gallon barrels for the animals (we used to with our smaller hp pump). So would a 20 gallon pressure tank help this problem?

Or I could just not unbolt and put pipe to join them to save work for now.

Now you are talking about volume as opposed to pressure. In other words, it takes a long time to fill your water barrel because the pump can only supply so many gallons per minute. That would not be a pressure tank issue. Can you post the manufacturer and model number of the pump? We can probably find the specs of the pump online and see if it's delivering what it is supposed to deliver. Considering that it is attached to such a small tank (6 gallons is really small), I'm going to guess it is not a very high capacity pump. But that's just a guess.

Glad the CV worked.

Yes, you can try just adding on the second pressure tank, but just be aware of what I posted earlier. I remember we had a person on here a while back that added a second tank and had trouble with water "bouncing" between the two tanks. Might not be an issue with yours, however. I think a larger tank would be a good idea for you because it makes life easier for your pump, but it would not solve your volume problem.

No it is not going slow, it puts pressure down to 0 when pumping with tap too far open. It is a 3/4 horsepower pump and will check how many gallons per hour it pumps, but thinking it is way more than what we were trying... If we put the tap just open very little it eventually fills the tank. Just flushing the toilet was too much for it yesterday... it went to 0 and did not pump up... maybe water supply problem? The spring is VERY good, it will never pump dry you cannot take a firemans pump and empty it... It's a mastercraft pump. I don't have the model number, I am at work.

OK! If it's volume you want behind your draw then instead of a 6 gallon bladder tank go with a 40 gallon galvanized pressure tank, (see image). This will give you the same function as az bladder with the added volume to back it up. Good luck, Tom

WE have a 20 gallon thinking with bladder, not sure, can we use that for now? I just want it to work, want to be able to flush the toilet, even if we can't run anything else with it, not sure where to find a 40 gallon tank!

WE have a 20 gallon thinking with bladder, Are you saying you have a 20 gallon bladder tank that's not installed? Any pump company can get you a pressure tank. Good luck, Tom

Yes the pump came with a 6.6 gallon and we used to have a 20 gallon one, so should we install it? Should that help, or should we spend the money to buy a 40 gallon... I don't know if its bladder, how can we check?

The bladder tanks are generally painted blue or grey and have an air valve located at, or very near, the top. The non-bladder tanks are galvanized. A larger tank will help with volume BRIEFLY, which is to say only long enough to exhaust the reserve in the tank, which will be enough to flush a toilet or take a short shower. However, any more than that, and you will be right back to depending on how much the pump can deliver, which is your basic problem. You still need to resolve that issue. Has this volume problem always been there, or has the pump delivered enough water at some point in the past?

I might mention that SB and I have discussed this in the past and we just simply don't agree on which type of tank to buy. The galvanized tanks are cheaper, but require periodic maintanence. The bladder tanks are higher priced, but are "set it and forget it". You should also know that a bladder tank tends to have a higher reserve of water than a similarly sized galvanized tank, so it is not necessary to buy as large a tank with the bladder tank. So you can win either way as long as you know what you are getting into.

Send the pump model # when you can.

This one is painted blue and it has an air nipple. We could fill our 40 gallon water barrels in about 15 minutes with the 20 gallon tank we have, but with a different pump, actually a 3/4 or a 1/3 I think... So if we were filling a 40 gallon tank, while it was filling there would still be water intake from the spring so should be fine... we can't even flush the toilet with this set up with the smaller tank... it was leaking though so we are getting this fixed, where we had the CV it was leaking quite a bit, so we have that fixed. This pump is brand new but was sitting for 2 years. So we are fixing that leak and trying again. We also had one fitting that was not tight and was leaking a lot slower. The one at the front of the CV was about 3 or 4 drops per second. Could that cause the loss of flow?

Small leaks don't affect your flow.

If I'm understanding you right, this pump has had this problem ever since it was installed, which was recently. Is that correct? Also, do try to get the model # up.

Hadn't even thought about this, but it would be wise to call the pump manufacturer. I'm just curious that if your 400 foot run of pipe from the spring might be having some impact here.

We have had a jet pump here for about 10 years, most of it was I believe a 1/3 or a half horse power. We actually could shower the first day we installed it, but then we were not having it shut off... before we put the check valve on. Uggg... this is getting frustrating, the pump was never used before we got it, but is still under 2 year limitted warranty... the gal supposedly bought it as a spare... and never in stalled it...

Model number 062-3554-6

It is wired with white house wire, but then plugged into a 20 foot extension cord that may not be heavy duty, could that be the problem? So what problems can cause loss of flow? The pump hooked to a short pipe in a 45 gallon barrel of water for supply is fine (with foot valve... ) a different foot valve... maybe the foot valve on the long pipe is bad? Its been used in the barrel and was fine... it's a plastic one... we have a metal one, but hate to have to refill our hose...

If I may jump in here, jlisenb is correct, the wiring is not the problem. It could (should) be redone but it is not a contributing factor to the failure of the pump motor not shutting off or the lack of water volume.

Are you saying that after installing the check valve, the pump now shuts off properly and holds the pressure but the volume of water is greately reduced?

Sorry using my phone before cv ishowerd for a long te no problem after cv husband could not fill barrel even running slow... but pipe ahead of cy was leaking... gonna try to fix leak and change tank...

I am reading your post as;

"Before the check valve was installed I could take a long shower with aout any problem. After installing hubby can't fill the watering tanks because the flow is so low."

The tank will not be the problem. After all it's just a tank.

It's rather elementry but I would suggest you check the installation of the check valve. Check valves have or should have an arrow showing the direction of the flow. Make sure it is installed properly. Also check to make sure you have the correct type of check valve.
There are two types of check valves. One is intended to be installed horizontially the other is intended to be installed vertically.
I am surprised that your small pump can even pull water the distance you have described. Any additional restriction would have a dramatic effect on flow.

Installing a vertical check valve on a horizontial line would probably provide that restriction. So to would installing a horizontial valve on a vertical line.

I didn't realize that the check valve had to be horizontal or vertical, as in the pipe has to be horizontal or verticle? This check valve is installed on a pipe that is on slope! So maybe checking to see how it SHOULD be installed and adding an elbow in the pipe to make it so??

Ours appears to be a spring loaded one that can be used both horizontal or verticle, so shouldn't matter that its at an angle?

I am not sure it's a flow problem, or a losing its prime problem... would a leak cause it to loose its prime will pumping? If it was leaking just above the check valve?

Your prime is the water in the pipe and pump before it starts running. The pump is not designed to move or pump air. If the pump and pipe are filled with air the pump will simply spin doing nothing. If filled with water it will move the water out and pull more water in the other end of th pipe.

It sounds like you are saying that you have a flow problem in that the flow (amount) of water is not what you think it should be.

It does sound like the check valve is what is causing the low flow problem. As said earlier, I am a bit surprised that the small pump you are using can pull water 400 feet. Apparently because the lift is only 15 or so feet makes it possible. Anything that makes it more difficult will seriously affect the flow.
Most check valves rely on gravity to close the valve. The flow of water only has to over come the weight of the flapper valve in order for the water to pass through it.
With the positive stop type check valve (the spring loaded type) the strength of the flow must over come the strength of the spring.
Since I think your system is already on the critical edge of it capabilities, I suggest you change the check valve to a gravity type, either horizontial or vertical.


Apparently the pump you were using before had a built in check valve and the one you are using now does not, therefore you must have the check valve in the line to prevent all the water in the tank from flowing back to the well. From what you said earlier you apparently had sufficient flow before you installed the check valve. You must have the check valve but use the one that creates the least resistance to the flow.

Paints, this is, to me, the big question. Has this system ever worked properly for you? If so, what change seemed to bring on the problems. Did this new pump seem to be the start of it? If so, then the pump is the first place to look.

For 20-30 years we used a piston pump, it wasn't working well so we removed it and got a jet pump. We started having trouble with the jet pump, it had worked for about 5 years with a 20 gallon tank. It was a 1/3 horsepower I THINK for sure not more than a 1/2 horsepower. We bought a new pump (3/4 horsepower), installed it on the same tank and it worked sort of, for 3 months or so pump stopped working so we took it back on warranty and got a half horse power, which we installed and it worked for a few months then it stopped working as far as pulling water, it was winter, thought the line was frozen. None of these pumps did we use a check valve on. So all winter, we put water in a barrel and the foot valve and pipe to run water through the house. When we came to hook the line back on, that pump stopped working totally. Wouldn't even turn when we plugged it in. So this spring, after trying the pump, we bought a new in box BUT 2 years old had been sitting after the gal bought it, never supposed to be used, and replaced the whole line, there is only one elbow on the line. We have only laid the line on the ground. This pump will pump fine with the line back in the barrel, and no check valve, but will, eventually loose its prime on the long line... Without the check valve it would draw, and give sufficient water for long times but not shut off, with check valve it will eventually loose its prime. The check valve is spring loaded I believe... so I should get what kind of check valve? A gravity one? Vertical or horizontal would be better?

It sounds like your well has never worked consistently. Just for clarity, to draw water up 400 feet or more of pipe is unusual, even though the elevation is only fifteen feet or so. It would be much better to have the pump at the spring and pump water up the pipe as opposed to what you have now. But that would involve several hundred dollars of underground cable which makes it tough.

I tried to look your pump up but had no luck with a Mastercraft 062-3554. Are you sure that's correct?

This is what we are referring to in a checkvalve. http://www.wayfair.com/Wayne-Water-Systems-Line-Check-Valve-WAY1193.html?refid=BSF49-WAY1193

Paint, it is sometimes difficult to lend help from hundreds of miles away like we are trying to do. It seems this current pump worked properly (except for cutting off) until you put the CV on. Now, with the CV, volume is your problem. A CV should not affect that at all. So make sure the CV in "pointed" in the right direction. If that is true, then I'd try removing the CV and see if my volume returns. If it does, then we can try a different solution to the "bouncing" pressure. But let's first try to establish what the situation is with your pump delivering enough water.

I appreciate the help. We had a jet pump that did work for many years. We did not have a check valve on. The check valve I had on lately was a big plastic thing with a flap inside that would shut. We did try removing it and after unplugging the pump you hear the air/water suck back out of it... then you just fill it with about 2 quarts of water and it is full and stays full. ANother question what if the foot valve is not working correctly and plugged? Could this cause problems, like its trying to suck up and cant?? Hubby does not want to change the foot valve, but I am thinking we should try... The pump will distribute water in our house with no problem with a different foot valve in a 45 gallon barrel...

Removed the CV, changed the foot valve... still not pumping up at all now. Thinking we might just give up and do the submersible pump after all! UGGGG. I am so discouraged, I know we should just scrap it all and dig a deep well!

Here is what I am wondering now, and I am really appreciative of everyone's help. Our spring is a hole in ground in the middle of the woods with a box around it. When we put the new pipe/foot valve in we would pump it up and down in the spring to draw the water up and fill the pipe without getting air in it. Well I was wondering, might we be causing stuff to float around in the water by doing so and plugging our foot valve? Thus we can fill our pipe from above and then go to pump, it is like a straw trying to draw water, you might move the water up the pipe some but then when you stop sucking it runs back to the plugged end... I don't know, I am grasping at straws here. The reason I am hesitant to call a plumber is honestly I am not sure if they know too much about working with a system like we have... I called 2 plumbers when I started to ask if I should have a 1 inch pipe or a 1 1/4 inch pipe and they kind of sounded dumbfounded... several things I asked about and they didn't seem to know/want to give advise. My brother in law hired a plumber once because his water line was frozen from the house to the wellhouse and the guy charged him 5 hours for pouring boiling water into a funnel into the water pipe, when we borrowed a local guy's stirrup pump, with 100 feet of small stiff hose, put the hose right into the pipe and within 1/2 hour had pushed hot water to the frozen part of the pipe and thawed his water... so just leary to spend the money and still have no fix, although at this point, we probably have spent enough on trying to have hired a plumber to begin with!

So was thinking as a last ditch effort before resorting to buying a sumbersible pump and 450 feet of wire, to buy a brand new foot valve, setting it down in there and NOT pumping it in the spring, waiting until its clear and everything settled, THEN filling from above and trying it...

We had a jet pump that did work for many years. We did not have a check valve on.

Had a pump that worked. Now have a pump that seems not to work. Hmmm.

It would seem your best course of action would be to replace the footvalve (ten or fifteen bucks... cheap) and try the pump. (Current footvalve could be clogged/defective) If that does not help, then remove the CV, even though that should make no difference at all. But who knows?

If it still does not work, then I'd start thinking pump.

One more item. Putting the pump at the source of water and then pumping uphill is a better option, it seems to me, that what you have now. But then you are talking some serious money, even just for the buried cable.

We have removed the check valve and tried with or without the CV. I am going to pick up another foot valve and try. I did find a used pump (less than a year old) locally for sale, it is 3/4 horsepower, with 400 feet of wire, but it's the one with the control box, the tank it is less than a year old... with control box or without which is better? We are figuring we need to rebury our pipe anyway so the burying of the cable would go along with that... we would have to get about 50-75 feet more wire though.

Try the FV first before buying a pump. Might end up saving some money.

Not sure what you mean by a control box. If this is another jetpump, then I assume you mean another pressure switch. If it is a sub pump, then many of them use a separate box to control the startup for the pump. As far as I know, it would work fine.

Yes, I checked online and there are 2 wire and 3 wire pumps, the 3 wire actually have 3 wires and a ground and the control box is separate, while the 2 wire have 2 wires and a ground wire and the control box is inside the pump... not sure how they work differently but that is what I read on Ebay. I went to town and bought one and bought a CV also that is the brass type that was shown here before, instead of the big clunky round one with a flapper that is hinged on on side inside, whilst this one had a round thing that goes up and down and should work better if we need it.

Okay so we got the foot valved replaced and did not stir up the water, and filled it from inside. It only took about 4 quarts of water, so thinking we have air to get out of the line. A 400-450 feet line, with a few ups and downs, how many gallons of water would it be reasonable to think it would take to get all air out of the line. Hubby didn't want to put the check valve on yet... This pump was bought as a new pump in the box that she bought 2 years ago, she had the receipt with her, and it still is under limitted warranty for about a month left, do you think a limitted warranty would replace it at this point? Just wondering if the pump might not be good... we are still pumping, going on 90 gallons we pumped out of it now... Hubby has not removed the little hose from the pump to the electrical box yet... to make sure its not plugged... going to pump a third 45 gallon barrel then and see if that takes all the air out. Right now it goes to 50, then bounces 3 or 4 times down to 30 and stays off for a second or 2, then bounces back, like it is sucking back.

Looks like we MIGHT have got our water going. THe check valve on, and the new foot valve and we filled several barrels of water, and we have WATER! Yeah, hoping it won't loose its prime while sitting all night, we will see in the morning! It is SO nice to have spring water again, without having to haul it from 3 miles away on the truck in barrels!

Hooray! After everything, it was a ten dollar footvalve. Let us know tomorrow if everything is still wonderful.

Is this the new CV?

Yes, its one of the brass ones, like someone showed me earlier, the one I had was a big clunky looking one with a flap that was flipping open, the new one has a round thing that the whole thing goes up... and now I have tons of Sharkbite connectors, and etc that I bought thinking I might use, but don't think I have the receipts to take back, LOL, but still less than having a plumber come out!

ARGGGGGGG I figure we have a leak, SOMEWHERE in the line, we bought 300 feet of hose and started at the spring. After sitting all night, I forgot to check the pressure before flushing the toilet, but after flushing it was down to 5 lbs of pressure, guessing we have a problem below the check valve in our line where its sucking air in! UGGGGGGG back to the drawing board today!

First, check to make sure you still have prime at the pump. That will at least tell you if the CV is doing its job. Won't take 5 minutes.

I will check. So hubby thinks it's the foot valve sucking or joints near it sucking in air, but there is only one that is above the water level, and I will check it, other than that... I should really have checked the pressure BEFORE trying it this morning as that would have told me if it was below the check valve. If the pump was full of water and full pressure, and only when it started trying to pump did it loose pressure then I would have known it was below the check valve.

Okay so I suspected there was a problem with under the house, the only piece of pipe I never changed, so I undid the pump from inside the house and took it to across the driveway where there is a splice... and hooked the pump up with NO check valve, it pumped up and shut off, the pressure went down to 40 when it shut off, didn't stay at 50, but is that okay?

SO inside the house, with a lift of about 5 more feet, and with 50 feet of pipe more, it is back to bouncing, but when you unplug it when its close to 50 lbs of pressure it only goes down to 30... so guessing the check valve will work, but want to make sure that the water will not drop below the check valve enough to loose prime once I put it on, so letting it sit for some time to see if it drops in pressure when unplugged before putting the check valve back on.

Check valve worked, system was working fine, but after sitting it would not pump up, so figure we have a small leak somewhere (I had let it sit without the check valve for awhile but it was fine, but not a long time)... so back to trying to get everything perfect tomorrow. Would putting the larger tank on help any minor problems? I am getting so discouraged, something works for a bit then we have trouble again! If we ever get this going right! UGGGG... I just don't want to have to buy a submersible pump right now! All that wire would be expensive!

Paint, you really should call the company that made the pump. The warranty is running out and they might have a really good answer for you. Chances are, they have seen the situation on several other occasions.