P2903.9.3 Fixture value and access.. Valves or stops to individual fixtures or appliances shall be required and the valves or stops shall be accessible on the same floor and within 3 feet of the fixture. Valves for a manifold distribution system may be located at the manifold or at the fixture serviced. Valves to riser and branches may be installed, but shall not be required.

I am trying to understand this code in relation to wall mounted faucets. I read it as a wall mounted faucet is a fixture, thus in need of shut off valve. However, I am being directed to the last sentence <branches> and am being told it isn't, as its like a shower? What exactly is a branch in relation to this?

Thanks in advance.

No shutoff required (in my area) with wall mounted faucets, just like tub/shower fuacets. However, if you have access to the supply lines from behind, or below the faucet, its always a good idea to install shut offs, just not required by any code I know of. Can you give more detail about the wall mount faucet, as in, commercial sink, etc.

I know nothing about plumbing.. so I have to ask-- why is it put in a different class? To me a faucet is a faucet.. Of course these happen to be installed in tile :-) When I had plane jane bathrooms before the work was done, I had them--but now I don't.

Its residential, one is a danze opulence over a vanity sink, and one is a similar brand, over a vanity sink.
I have attached a few pictures, as they will do a better job of showing than I could explain.

Thanks!

Would this question be better ask like this?


When I ask why stop valves were not installed, I was told that it is not required by P2903.9.3.. The last sentence, which says "Valves to riser and branches may be installed, but shall not be required."

Now, I have a question for you. Where is the trap under sink #1?

Yes, that would be a better way to ask.

I wasn't sure exactly what a trap was, but from pictures I pulled up.. it's that curved pipe?

If that is the case, it curves under the shelf of the vanity.

I have attached a picture of that part, the pipe leading to it close up, and a picture of the vanity to maybe or maybe not put the set up into perspective.

Thanks!

Yes, that's the trap.

As to the code.

All codes require some amount of interpretation. Since I am not a plumber I will leave that to others on this site like Tom (Speedball), Mark (Massplmber), MGD and others but I don't see how the sentence about risers and branches, has any thing to do with the first sentence requiring stop valves at each fixture. A branch is simply a supply line that branches off another, usually larger, pipe to serve a certain area. Personally, I think you are being handed a line. Was this work done by a licensed plumber with proper permits? Was an inspection done by the local plumbing authority?

I don't see how the fact that the faucets are mounted to the wall as opposed to the sink or vanity deck changes anything. Of course there is always the "That is not satisfactory." if full payment has not been made.

Perhaps the real plumbers on the site will provide better interpretation of the code.

P2903.9.3 Fixture value and access.. Valves or stops to individual fixtures or appliances shall be required and the valves or stops shall be accessible on the same floor and within 3 feet of the fixture. Valves for a manifold distribution system may be located at the manifold or at the fixture serviced. Valves to riser and branches may be installed, but shall not be required.

I've been reading the exchange so far. Understand that you have a vessel sink with wall mounted faucets, ( nice looking job!) I think your plumber misread this
Valves to riser and branches may be installed, but shall not be required."

This refers to the branches and raisers that come off the main to feed the supplies and not to the supplies themselves. In other words the pipes that lead up to coming out of your wall.
This affects your faucets.
Valves or stops to individual fixtures or appliances shall be required and the valves or stops shall be accessible on the same floor and within 3 feet of the fixture.
In my area (Tampa Bay) we install stops on ALL of our supplies. It only makes good sense to do this. Not installing stops means shutting down the building to service one faucet.
Will it hurt not to have stops installed on your sinks faucet? Not a bit. Just makes it more difficult to service them. Bottom line? Your plumber should have installed stops on your supplies. Will it impede the service on your sink? Not a bit! Does this address your concerns?
PS- Most of our complaints on vessel sinks have to do with slow drainage and air lock. Glad to see you're OK. Good luck, Tom

Thank you for the responses!

To answer:
Yes, licensed plumbers, general contractor were involved. There were permits pulled at my insistence.
However, since this was a federally declared disaster area (approx 10-11,000 structures damaged), codes tended to be a bit more lax to get people back into their homes asap. While they did it to help, it opened the door in my opinion to more issues. Of course, this project should have been completed last December (2010), and we are still at it-so no asap here, and work should have been completed to current code. The plumber, contractor side of it is a very long story.

I did have a local licensed plumber come and check things out here yesterday, and he was in agreement of what was being said here in relation to the code. He also told me what a tough job it was going to be to get them installed at this point. Not cheap either. It was helpful too, as he pointed out that the hot water heater should have an expansion tank, which it doesn't, as well as something not quite right with the recirculating system. Due to some other questions and concerns I had, he also pressure tested, which should have been around 80 psi, and I am around 150.

So thanks to you guys and the nice plumber, I understand a bit more of what is being presented to me.
And yes, the code is being either misinterpreted or misrepresented. Of course I will have to talk to our codes department and see what their take is at this point. I am thankful that I just had them not too long ago put the required main shut off in the house--so at least I have that!

Thanks!

he also pressure tested, which should have been around 80 psi, and I am around 150.
That's totally unacceptable! The average house pressure's 45PSI with the low end 40 and the high end 80. Too much pressure puts a strain on the house piping and all your faucets.
I'm amazed that you weren't told this.
Where do you live where plumbers misread code and fail to tell a customer of a dangerous situation?
Call your plumber back ASAP and have him install an PRV (pressure regulating valve) on your water service. Don't let this slide or you'll be sorry in the long run. See a PRV valve below. Good luck, Tom

I am in Nashville, TN. When the new plumber was out, we talked about the valve and having it installed, and I plan to do that this week--with the new plumber. I feel more confident bringing someone new in. He warned me what the pressure could do -- didn't sound pretty. I am thankful it hasn't happened yet. So I will have him do that, as well as the expansion tank for the hot water heater. Then its back with GC for the other issues. I was hoping to hear back from codes today, but no luck. It is just neverending..

Thanks again for the informative responses and helpful picture. Having more knowledge has been a very good thing.

I was hoping to hear back from codes today,
Show them this and then tell them what your plumber and contractor told you.

Valves to riser and branches may be installed, but shall not be required."

This refers to the branches and raisers that come off the main to feed the supplies and not to the supplies themselves. In other words the pipes that lead up to coming out of your wall.
This is what will affect your faucets.


Valves or stops to individual fixtures or appliances shall be required and the valves or stops shall be accessible on the same floor and within 3 feet of the fixture.
Good luck, Tom

Well I did talk to the plumbing section over at codes. He is in agreement with the GC-- since it is wall mounted, it is viewed as a shower, so not required. The only way it would be required is if the manufacturer of the faucet recommended it, and then the more stringent requirement would prevail. I personally don't see the difference, but they do make the distinction.

Also interesting, is even if when they did the inspection the pressure was beyond acceptable limits, it wouldn't have been flagged--because if was a disaster rebuild/remodel. They would just make the assumption more or less that it was that way before the event, so they would let it slide. Now if I went to so new work post that work, it would have had to be corrected. In order to get folks back in their homes, they didn't enforce current codes. It's a double edged sword on that one.

He did say when I get the pressure valve put on to make sure it has a bypass on it... apparently that bypass helps denote what kind off system it is, how thermal expansion comes in to play, and whether an expansion tank would then be needed. With the bypass, it supposedly isn't.

So that has been my plumbing day.. :-)

If I were there I'd be giving your inspector a hard time over this.The code reads loud and clear,

Valves or stops to individual fixtures or appliances shall be required and the valves or stops shall be accessible on the same floor and within 3 feet of the fixture and your inspector's telling you that your vessel sink isn't a "individual fixture"? That's just plain silly. Of course it's a fixture. What else? So now to service your vessel sink you would have to shut the entire house down? That makes a lottrab sense.

Another thing I find weird,
He did say when I get the pressure valve put on to make sure it has a bypass on it... That makes no sense at all. Your PRV reduces 150PSI down to a acceptable level and if you bypass it you'll be shooting 150 pounds of pressure back in the system.Just one more thing I find to be without any reason.

The code reads very clear to me and *I can find nothing in the code that exempts a wall hung faucet Or a shower valve from stops on the supplies.

. I've been a plumber most of my working life ( well over 50 years) And I tell you I couldn't work in your area. It would be a fight to the death with the inspector on every project. But I wish you the best of luck on yours. Good luck, Tom

It's dizzying to say the least...
I pulled up the installation instructions for both the danze and the brizo faucet... Of course they don't go into how to plumb it.. but they do make some references, or at least I think they do?


Danze-
After installing faucet, remove aerator and open the hot and cold water supplies. Check for leaks. Turn on faucet handles for one minute to flush debris from faucet. Close the handles and re-assemble the aerator.

I am not sure I am understanding this correctly, but wouldn't the valves that are missing be the things that would open the hot and cold water supplies?

Highlights From the Brizo:

** To purchase the correct water supply hook-up.

**Attach the valve body to the stud brace with suitable screws (1). The valve body is designed to be fed with the water supplies from underneath.

**Temporarily attach handles to valve body. Turn on the water supplies to the valve body. Position a bucket in front of spout shank. Slowly open the hot and cold valve, and allow the water to flow from the spout shank, for at least one minute. Close valves and carefully inspect connections for leakage, with the water pressure on. Retighten if necessary, but do not over tighten. Repair as needed. Remove handles from valve body, and return them to carton. Reattach foam sleeves and plaster guards to valve body. Turn off water supplies, if needed. Firmly secure the valve body after you have verified that installation is level and correct.

Again, is this referencing the shut offs that are not there?

If so the mfg is making the assumption that they are there. If not, I still don't have a clue. :-)

Again, is this referencing the shut offs that are not there? Both manufactures are assuming ,(as I do) that there are indeed angle stops on your supplies. They assume,(as I do) that each faucet has shutoffs on the supplies coming out of the wall. To not provide them just isn't good plumbing. Beside that even your own code calls for stops on the supplies.

Valves or stops to individual fixtures or appliances shall be required and the valves or stops shall be accessible on the same floor and within 3 feet of the fixture.
It doesn't get much clearer then that. And that's your own code. Go figure! Regards, Tom

Well, I found something a bit more decisive in the plumbing code. Our plumbing code is based on the IPC 2006 with some additions and deletions. The other code snippet that was being used is from the International Residential code. From my reading of TN code, I don't see the following being deleted or amended--
606.2 Location of shutoff valves.

"Shutoff valves shall be installed in the following locations:

1. On the fixture supply to each plumbing fixture other than bathtubs and showers in one- and two-family residential occupancies, and other than in individual sleeping units that are provided with unit shutoff valves in hotels, motels, boarding houses and similar occupancies.
2. On the water supply pipe to each sillcock.
3. On the water supply pipe to each appliance or mechanical equipment."

The only exception made is showers and tubs. It makes no cross reference to fixtures thought to be like, or wall mounted or anything but specifically showers and tubs.

So this weekend I will put it all together and forward to codes, and see if it makes any difference. Hopefully this along with the manufacturers installation guide referencing the missing valves will make some difference in the way the code is being interpreted to my installation.

Well it was a longish quest, but I did get my shut off valves finally.
Codes was no help... as they see this as the same with a shower.
It would have come down to appealing the code.
Luckily, or unluckily, depending how you look at it, the contractor did something else in a manner he shouldn't have. So as a concession for that, he had to do something he didn't want to do-- so I got my valves. It shouldn't have to be this hard :-)