What are your thoughts about the return of Jesus Christ? Do you think it will be before, during, or after the Great Tribulation? Do you believe it will happen, or not?

This has been argued to death on this site and as far as I can tell is yes, no, maybe and not enough proof. Just wait and see. Believe me, that is best.

To answer this, you will only get subjective points of view - as different churches teach before Tribulation, during Tribulation, and post Tribulation. My belief is the Christ comes back post Tribulation. Some will even say that Christ is here now and just biding time.

Jesus will return. No one knows the hour, day or time of the coming. Not even the angels in heaven know. Only God knows the exact time and day of the return of Jesus Christ.

I also believe that when no one is paying attention, when no one is being watchful. That is when he will return. We as a nation as a country are being prepared and are aware. So it will not happen until we start to forget and not prepare anymore.

Joe

What are your thoughts about the return of Jesus Christ? Do you think it will be before, during, or after the Great Tribulation? Do you believe it will happen, or not?

I didn't realize the differences of opinion that Christians have on this subject. I can understand all views, but I can support my own position, as I have always believed.

The bride (the Church) is removed BEFORE the pre-second coming wrath. (Rev.3) Notice Rev. 2&3- The theme repeats- "They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.(Rev 3:4-5)

Then, Rev. 6 (before the great woes) the first of the seven seals is the Lord on a white horse.
The Christians are The Great Multitude in White Robes (Rev7:9-17)

From here Christians only watch from Heaven all the wrath that will take place. Rev.19:11After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: Hallelujah!" this theme of great multitude is repeated again. Rev.19:11- I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. Rev19:13-14,He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
There is a song we sing in church that has this in mind, with lyrics that say, "on a white horse he comes"-I don't remember all the song but it does reinforce what I have come to believe about the rapture of the Church. Now that is for those in Christ alive at that time. The ones who will be given a final test to repent of their sins and accept Christ-will have much persecution in the end times, I understand, those who do repent will see Christ with The New Jerusalem when it comes down from heaven. For those it must be during or after the Tribulation.

I liked your answer retro, I don't know what will happen or when, but I like your take on it. Blessings.

Since we the people of earth will not wake up, realize the true power we have and put an end to all of our problems, then I agree that the only solution is Divine intervention. We control our world and make it what it is. We have made it a world of fear, hate and war. Jesus died for nothing I suppose. If and when he does come back, I don't think he will be so passive as he was the first time around. As a matter of a fact, I wouldn't blame him if he was just a tad pissed off!

I think of My Lord as loving and forgiving. In my opinion, He isn't looking to be angry but I think sorrowful for those He lost to the great deceiver.

I think of My Lord as loving and forgiving. In my opinion, He isn't looking to be angry but I think sorrowful for those He lost to the great deceiver.

I think he was pissed when he tore up the money changers boths in the temple-I think he is quite unhappy with the way the "Church" has progressed thus far. I think he gets pissed at "Christians' that sit around watching people starve and be hearded to their death and do nothing while saying it's OK because he is loving and forgiving. He is loving and forgiving and every other thing he needs to be.
Jesus could be that homeless person you try hard to avoid. After being avoided all day I'll bet he gets just a little pissed off at the attitude of "good Christians" these days.

But then, it's really nothing to get hung about... just my opinion and my disdain for organized religion and the posers that run it. Man created religion, not GOD.
Send your money to JEEZ-US P.O. Box 7734 Tulsa, Oklahoma. For your love offering of $1,000,000,000, we will send you this wonderful 50 page booklet crammed full of more dogma, fear and superstition to scare you into sending us the balance of you savings account.
Were in HELL is Jimmy Swagart now that we need him?

Mags, I'll need a zip code please to mail my check.

Mags, I'll need a zip code please to mail my check.

Oh, sorry. That's 66666

Well magprob, I don't know about God being angry, but I am betting you are pretty pi$$ed. I appreciate your opinion, and see some truth in it, but also see value in organized religion also. Blessings to you and yours.

And may GOD bless you and yours.

Hey, what happened to my previous post? It wasn't inappropriate or abusive. Just because someone disagrees I would hope the mediators would read before they delete.

Sorry, my mistake. Just getting used to this site, and failed to see this is page two. LOL. Forgive me?

Too funny, lol

Since we the people of earth will not wake up, realize the true power we have and put an end to all of our problems, then I agree that the only solution is Divine intervention. We control our world and make it what it is. We have made it a world of fear, hate and war. Jesus died for nothing I suppose. If and when he does come back, I don't think he will be so passive as he was the first time around. As a matter of a fact, I wouldn't blame him if he was just a tad pissed off!

It is true that Jesus did get angry at times. When He returns, I don't know if He will be angry or not, but it will non really make any difference because:
Jude 1:14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
(KJV)

So we see that angry nor not, jugdment is coming. Your observation that mankind has made the world what it is, is right on target. I don't think though I would lump all "organized religion" together. There are vast differences between organizations.

It is true that Jesus did get angry at times. When He returns, I don't know if He will be angry or not, but it will non really make any difference because:
Jude 1:14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
(KJV)

So we see that angry nor not, jugdment is coming. Your observation that mankind has made the world what it is, is right on target. I don't think though I would lump all "organized religion" together. There are vast differences between organizations.

I agree 100% that some organizations do everything they can to help. I know that a lot of Christians give every Sunday and then go home. They think that if their money does good then good and they feel better. If the church uses their money to buy cigars, booze and hookers, then so what? As long as they gave in good faith, then they are still blessed. I would rather buy a homeless guy a burger. Then I know where it went. I went to a church one time and the preacher said all he needed was a new Mercedes. He then proceeded to put everyone there on a guilt trip about it. People started pulling out the check books. That was in 1982. I have not been back to church.
Benny Henn said he needed 90 million dollars to build a new church. After he got the 90 million, he built an ocean front home. When asked what happened to the new church he smugly replied, GOD changed his mind.
We do create our reality and this is the reality we have created by putting it in others hands. If we all just did one thing a day, on our own, we wouldn't need them-all problems would be solved.

Wow, you have seen a few really bad Christian examples. I have seen a few too, I admit. I still have faith that there are lots who are on the right track. Organization can be good as some folks need regular communion. It would be great if everyone were discerning. I think it is fine to question the practices of the church leaders and their hearts at times if things are suspicious. There position calls them to a higher standard which I would hold them to.

From reading the Bible and really looking into Revelations and some of the other books that prophesied both the coming and the second coming of Messiah; I believe that he will return at the end of the Great Tribulation, that is when he is to pass judgement on those whom followed the Anti-Christ. At that time he will begin his 1000 year reign.

I too have some problems with 'organized' religion. But then again, apparently so does God. In Revelations the churches are addressed. I think that too many churches have taken it upon themselves to interpret the Bible in a way that best suits their needs or their wants. Religion, the belief in God as our Creator and Jesus as our Savior and Lord, is practiced as docterine rather than being taught as the way we should live our lives.

I also see so much hypocracy--just going to church and 'acting' Christian are not a guarantee into the Kingdom of Heaven. It really is something that I believe you must feel in your soul. As for forgiveness, well, we received forgiveness for our sins through the blood of Jesus Christ. We still have to admit our sins and we have to be vigilant not to keep repeating them. While God is a forgiving and patient Father... he too can get tired of waiting around for us to do what's right. He made that abundantly clear when he cleared the Earth during the flood.

Well I don't know what I believe about that but what do you think?

Rob, I need to address one thing you just stated. We all sin and we all repeat sin. It is a fact. In order, though, for us to have an abundant and blessed life and to be pleasing to our Father in Heaven, we must try to be vigulant to be loving and kind and to do right by others. He is our Father in deed, and He will reward or punish us according to our lives which He alone should judge.

I don't know if you were implyig that Christians would lose their salvation by sinning, but I answer with a resounding NO. His relationship with us is like our own with our children. We get disappointed at times and will punish at times when our children do wrong. We will never forsake them. They belong to us, and we belong to them. Once our name is written in the Book of Life, it will NOT be ereased. That is God's promise to us. ALL of us sinning Christians.

Since I want the blessings that go along with an obedient life, I try my best and besides, I feel close to God in the process. I fear the loss of blessings here on Earth due to sin, not the loss of my eternal promise.

Just wanted to clear that one up. Blessings to you and yours.

I understand how you may have misunderstood what I said... We are human, we sin, we make mistakes and we are infallible. We were meant to have perfection, but long story short, we tempted our own fate. The wonderful gift of free-choice that God gave us is something that we deal with each day. We make good choices and we make bad ones too. “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8). Which is perhaps the biggest sin... LOL!

We (all of us) GAIN our salvation by repenting our sins. The Bible pretty much tells us that after Jesus was crucified that he became our 'way to God'... I honestly think that by that time God was so fed up with us as whole he decided to step back and let our history continue as phophesied. No matter what we do, even after repenting and asking for forgiveness--we are still going to be imperfect, we are still going to sin. I believe that when people do this, they become more aware of what they are doing and really try to become more like the people Jesus tried to teach us to become.

And of course... if a person is only interested in salvation as the bottom line, I don't think they have their 'heart' into it. I think that each day we are given a new beginning, new hope and new opportunities to become better people. However, when a person continues to push God away, eventually God will go away. He will harden the heart and that person will be lost.

On one hand--REV 3:14 says that those who overcome will not be erased from the Book of Life, that Jesus will confess his/her name before God and the Angels. On the other hand, PS 69:28 talks about being erased from the Book of Life and not recorded with the righteous. That would lead me to believe that one can be erased... but as I said before--we have free-will and we can make the choice to be confessed before God--or blotted out.

Rob, I think that verse is referring to Earthly life. I think we have intrepretation differences. Nonetheless, I respect your right to a difference of opinion. Blessings.

Can you explain why you believe that verse refers to Earthly Life?

I really am curious, to me, part of learning the Bible and understanding it is to be open to realizing that I may not totally understand every word written... it's a constant learning process.

Well, it is hard for me to explain, but I was on another site, wondir and a guy with the handle, MRK, I believe it was MRK had explained it. It made sense to me. He said there is the Book of the Living and the Book of Life and they are referring to earthly life and eternal life respectively. Anyway, I just feel strongly about this. I am just a gal who was raised hearing it this way, and it rings true.

I responded to you on my question post, where I asked you if you can imagine NOT being a Christian? I cannot. I believe true repentance cannot be shaken loose. We cannot judge whether those who claim to once have been Christian ever truly took the step. It is inconceivable to me. Really, in life's practicalities, can you imagine not having the Holy Spirit with you to love and to guide you? The faith in me is sooo strong, I cannot imagine it not being the same for other Christians.

Sorry my answer isn't more sufficient. I am not a teacher... just a believer.

I think that all Believers are teachers in some sense of the word!

I don't think it's up to us to judge people either--only God truly knows what is in a person's heart. It's really easy for us to sit around and say what someone else does is wrong--but to say that God won't forgive it... not our choice. We can choose not to be around those who test our faith, we can also look at something and allow that's it's wrong, but as I said--that ultimate forgiveness is up to Him.

I can imagine it--I was raised in a way that 'taught it', but until I really decided to learn it and understand it--I did not fathom how much impact it would have on my life. Not saying that I've grown a halo or anything--wow--I know I try His patience! But I somehow feel that there is more to me now. Hard to explain, it feels good though.

Yeah, it feels pretty good to me too. I like you Rob, you have a good heart.

TRy reading this it may help with all different views, and possibly answer all your questions.
Are We Living in the End Times? (Hardcover)
by Tim F. LaHaye (Author), Jerry B. Jenkins (Author)

well i dont know what i believe about that but what do u think?
Who? Me? Well, here's what I believe. Jesus will come back. I believe it will be pre-tribulation, because the Great Tribulation is when God finally pours His anger out on a rebellious humanity, and the Bible tells believers that they are not appointed for wrath. Also Jesus said it would be like it was in the days of Noah and Lot. I believe the point there is that Noah and his immediate family were on board the ark when it started to rain, and Lot was safely out of Sodom before the fire fell on it. But if God chooses to keep believers safe in the midst of the Great Tribulation, that would be OK too, but I don't read the Scriptures that way. The main point is simply, are you ready?

Rob, I need to address one thing you just stated. We all sin and we all repeat sin. It is a fact. In order, though, for us to have an abundant and blessed life and to be pleasing to our Father in Heaven, we must try to be vigulant to be loving and kind and to do right by others. He is our Father in deed, and He will reward or punish us according to our lives which He alone should judge.

I don't know if you were implyig that Christians would lose their salvation by sinning, but I answer with a resounding NO. His relationship with us is like our own with our children. We get disappointed at times and will punish at times when our children do wrong. We will never forsake them. They belong to us, and we belong to them. Once our name is written in the Book of Life, it will NOT be ereased. That is God's promise to us. ALL of us sinning Christians.

Since I want the blessings that go along with an obediant life, I try my best and besides, I feel close to God in the process. I fear the loss of blessings here on Earth due to sin, not the loss of my eternal promise.

Just wanted to clear that one up. Blessings to you and yours.

We don't want to get into a discussion on the subject of eternal security. Do we??

That is how threads go sometimes. I was addressing something Rob stated. Sometimes questions lead to other discussions.

Sorry! I'm probably the one who derailed the train... I'm a lot like Godzilla that way! ;)

Rob, I don't think there is any need to appologize. I have been on many threads that lead to different topics yet somehow were tied to the question. If I pose a question, you can bring up something that goes with topic anytime. We weren't discussing commercials... we were discussing Christ. For me, it all ties. Have a wonderful day Rob and Galve.

Got to get ready for work... and in case anyone wants to know, I am NOT prepared to discuss my job at the post office.

Hey, galv, that last sentence was a total joke. I should have put LOL on it or something. I do understand why you posed the question in the first place and it was legitimate, I just was saying, in threads, subjects move along, especially in long threads. Again, have a good one.

I would like to add that many millions of people have died, and exactly zero have returned. The odds look very slim for Mr. Christ.

That's because they have not been resurrected. Until the end of the Tribulations, when Messiah returns and begins his 1000 year reign... no one who has died will be here.

But then if you listen to any of these psychics--the dead people are all over the place--just seems that only certain people can see them... (I'm rolling my eyes right now!)

Well robyn when you step back and think about it both situations have about the same probability of occurring.

I would like to add that many millions of people have died, and exactly zero have returned. The odds look very slim for Mr. Christ.

Capuchin, people are not supposed to return. Not now. However, Christ is the Son of God. Jesus foretold His second coming in the Bible. In fact Jesus' resurrection account in the New Testament is proof of His first return.
John21:11-14- Simon Peter climbed aboard and dragged the net ashore. It was full of large fish,153, but even with so many the net was not torn. Jesus said to them,"Come and have breakfast." None of the disciples dared ask him, "Who are you?" They knew it was the Lord. Jesus came, took the bread and gave it to them, and did the same with the fish. This was now the third time Jesus appeared to his disciples after he was raised from the dead.
I suspect that those who are walking in the Spirit in these last days will actually begin to anticipate that something is about to happen.
I just like to suggest you read the Bible. You can read it for reproof of Jesus' resurrection for starters. But it is hard to understand the Bible without the Holy Spirit(if you are not a Christian) because it was by the Spirit of the Lord that the written Bible was inspired.

Well robyn when you step back and think about it both situations have about the same probability of occuring.


Well--I have to look at the Bible... the prophesies turned out to have really occurred. It's sort of hard to argue that the resurrection won't happen when all of the other stuff was foretold and did take place.

As for the psychic's--I can only refer to Syliva Browne--talking to her 'spirits' and telling the parents of a missing boy that the child was dead and laying in a wooded area. That same missing boy was later found in Missouri--along with another missing child who was presumed dead. Real nice spirits eh?

I foretold my second coming on this here post-it note. Also I have an account of my resurrection on THE SAME POST-IT NOTE!!

I assume this is enough to secure me a second coming.

Lol Good sense of humour.

I foretold my second coming on this here post-it note. Also I have an account of my ressurection on THE SAME POST-IT NOTE!!!

I assume this is enough to secure me a second coming.


Okay--if you're THAAAAT good--make me a post-it note for a winning the Mega-Millions ticket... if it works, I'll gladly print this out and paste it into my Bible along with all the other good stuff!

:p

I now worship Capuchin.

Yeah you better, or I will smite you and send you to hell. Oh yeah I'm an all loving, all forgiving god by the way.

Yeah you better, or i will smite you and send you to hell. Oh yeah i'm an all loving, all forgiving god btw.

Capucin,
If joking & showing disrespect for Christianity was your goal for commenting here- trust me, Christians have NOTHING to learn from you. Acting childish, (along with the other poster) may fool kids, but the only one to worship is God. Not yourself, not psychics or idolatry. When you can stop thinking about yourself & concentrate on service for others then maturity happens. I'll be praying for you that you come to see the light of Jesus!

but the only one to worship is God. It may come as a surprise to you but there are many religions on this planet that worship various things or people. They all claim that their god is the only one.

I don't believe in God, I believe that a man named Jesus walked the Earth, but I don't believe that there was anything very special about him. I am however insulted that you believe that I think of myself over others. I don't need Christianity to be able to do that.

I'm absolutely fine with the fact that others have found comfort in Christianity, I believe that religion has it's place in the human psyche. It's when people let religion take over their psyche to the detriment of reason that I don't understand.

My points were that I believe Jesus and his mates were guys who could tell a good story, and that belief in the Bible is just like belief in any other book. Maybe my last comment about an all loving god was a little too harsh a stab, so I apologise for that one.

You're welcome to your beliefs, I just wanted to make mine heard.

What are your thoughts about the return of Jesus Christ? Do you think it will be before, during, or after the Great Tribulation? Do you believe it will happen, or not?

Afterwards.

What are your thoughts about the return of Jesus Christ? Do you think it will be before, during, or after the Great Tribulation? Do you believe it will happen, or not?

The Parousia appears to me to be the culmination, the apocalyptic event that intervenes and concludes the period of tribulation of which the scriptures speak.

I don't believe in God, I believe that a man named Jesus walked the Earth, but I don't believe that there was anything very special about him. I am however insulted that you believe that I think of myself over others. I don't need Christianity to be able to do that.

I'm absolutely fine with the fact that others have found comfort in Christianity, I believe that religion has it's place in the human psyche. It's when people let religion take over their psyche to the detriment of reason that I don't understand.

My points were that I believe Jesus and his mates were guys who could tell a good story, and that belief in the Bible is just like belief in any other book. Maybe my last comment about an all loving god was a little too harsh a stab, so I apologise for that one.

You're welcome to your beliefs, I just wanted to make mine heard.

A couple of questions:

1. What would you consider to be a healthy and reasonable balance between religion and reason?

2. Is it your opinion that all religion is unreasonable?

3. (OK, three) Do you hold all reason to be irreligious?

I look forward to reading your answers.



M:)RGANITE

It may come as a surprise to you but there are many religions on this planet that worship various things or people. They all claim that their god is the only one.

That is except those who are openly pantheistic, Hinduism for example.


M:)

I would like to add that many millions of people have died, and exactly zero have returned. The odds look very slim for Mr. Christ.


The book that is the sole witness to the life of Jesus, who you believe was an historic figure, tells otherwise.

Mathew 27.50-53

¶ Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


I am curious why you accept the gospeller's witness about the historical life of Jesus, but deny his witness of parallel events.




M:)RGANITE



.

That's because they have not been resurrected. Until the end of the Tribulations, when Messiah returns and begins his 1000 year reign...no one who has died will be here.

But then if you listen to any of these psychics--the dead people are all over the place--just seems that only certain people can see them...(I'm rolling my eyes right now!)



Have you forgotten Matthew 27:52-53?

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


M:)






.

I agree 100% that some organizations do everything they can to help. I know that a lot of Christians give every Sunday and then go home. They think that if their money does good then good and they feel better. If the church uses their money to buy cigars, booze and hookers, then so what? As long as they gave in good faith, then they are still blessed. I would rather buy a homeless guy a burger. Then I know where it went. I went to a church one time and the preacher said all he needed was a new Mercedes. He then proceeded to put everyone there on a guilt trip about it. People started pulling out the check books. That was in 1982. I have not been back to church.
Benny Hinn said he needed 90 million dollars to build a new church. After he got the 90 million, he built an ocean front home. When asked what happened to the new church he smugly replied, GOD changed his mind.
We do create our reality and this is the reality we have created by putting it in others hands. If we all just did one thing a day, on our own, we wouldn't need them-all problems would be solved.


We ought not to blame Christanity for what some deviant Christians do. Christianity should be judged by its philosophical basis, its moral teachings, its spiritual foundations, its hopes and expectations, both in and out of the world, and also for the great good it does and has done in the lives of billions of people.

While it is true that some awful things have been done under the cloak of religion, that ought not prevent us from seeing into the heart of it and measuring it by its goals and successes, rather than by the excesses and failures of some of its adherents.

M:)

Have you forgotten Matthew 27:52-53?

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


M:)






.

Yes, but that was then. Jesus also resurected Lazarus. But he and none of the others resurrected live on. Their human bodies eventually died again.

At this time no one walking the Earth is resurrected and there won't be any resurrection until Messiah returns.

I'm not a scholar, I do read the Bible each day along with other publications. But this is the way I understand it for myself.

Yes, but that was then. Jesus also resurected Lazarus. But he and none of the others resurrected live on. Their human bodies eventually died again.

At this time no one walking the Earth is resurrected and there won't be any resurrection until Messiah returns.

I'm not a scholar, I do read the Bible each day along with other publications. But this is the way I understand it for myself.

I can accept that Lazarus was brought back from the dead by revivification rather than resurrection because Jesus was the 'firstfruits of them that slept' but after his resurrection there is nothing to show that those who rose after him were then subject to mortality a second time.

The Bilical record is silent.

Have you forgotten Matthew 27:52-53?

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


M:)






.
Morganite,
You're kidding, aren't you? To make any comparison to Matthew 27:50-53 to anything to do with what psychics tells me you are not serious.
Most would argue that it might have to do with the "spirits in prison" or the O.T. saints be resurrected if anything- but you show your lack of Biblical literacy with your statement where it pertains to what the Bible clearly is NOT silent about- which is psychics(one kind of witchcraft).
The Bible records several physical resurrections that have taken place. Once these people lived out their lives they died & are waiting to be brought back to life in one of the other ressurections. Some examples are given in 1Kings 17:17-24; 2Kings 4:32-37;13:20-21;Matthew 27:50-53;Luke 7:11-15;8:41-42; John11:1-4,11-14,17-44; Acts9:36-42... and more.
I believe Matthew 27:50-53 to be another miracle of Jesus. There is something symbolic to the timing but I haven't put my finger on it yet.
But the Bible is not silent about that once we attain the Resurrection, we will not die anymore(Luke 20:35-36).
So I see nothing besides miracles that some people got to live with their loved ones again on earth in Matthew 27:50-53.
So Morganite, what ARE you referring to, please?

The Parousia appears to me to be the culmination, the apocalyptic event that intervenes and concludes the period of tribulation of which the scriptures speak.
So in your view, what will be the position of believers during the Great Tribulation?

I don't believe in God, I believe that a man named Jesus walked the Earth, but I don't believe that there was anything very special about him. I am however insulted that you believe that I think of myself over others. I don't need Christianity to be able to do that.

I'm absolutely fine with the fact that others have found comfort in Christianity, I believe that religion has it's place in the human psyche. It's when people let religion take over their psyche to the detriment of reason that I don't understand.

My points were that I believe Jesus and his mates were guys who could tell a good story, and that belief in the Bible is just like belief in any other book. Maybe my last comment about an all loving god was a little too harsh a stab, so I apologise for that one.

You're welcome to your beliefs, I just wanted to make mine heard.
Healing sick people, walking on water, and raising the dead doesn't make one special? What would it take to qualify for that in your opinion?

...

Morganite,

You're kidding, aren't you? To make any comparison to Matthew 27:50-53 to anything to do with what psychics tells me you are not serious.

I did not mention psychics. I addressed the fact that the Bible says that at the time of the resurrection of Jesus that many other of the saints who slept rose from their graves and were resurrected after Jesus.

Most would argue that it might have to do with the "spirits in prison" or the O.T. saints be resurrected if anything- but you show your lack of Biblical literacy with your statement where it pertains to what the Bible clearly is NOT silent about- which is psychics (one kind of witchcraft). Re-read what I have written. I make no such connection.

I am unclear where you are going with this as it seems a bit of a muddle, but whoever it was that was resurrected the Bible is quite specific.

I disregard your jibe at my “Bible literacy” and point out that the term ‘saint’ when used in either the Hebrew or Greek scriptures has nothing to do with canonisation, but means purely and simply a member of the congregation of Israel (sdq) or a member of the church of Jesus Christ (hagios), which is regarded as the continuation of the congregation of Israel.

The Bible records several physical resurrections that have taken place. Once these people lived out their lives they died & are waiting to be brought back to life in one of the other resurrections.

These were not resurrection if they have to die again. Resurrection is being raised to eternal life.

Some examples are given in 1 Kings 17:17-24; 2 Kings 4:32-37;13:20-21; Matthew 27:50-53; Luke 7:11-15;8:41-42; John 11:1-4,11-14,17-44; Acts 9:36-42... and more.

You must not confuse revivification with resurrection. Revivification is a temporary restoration to life, but resurrection is a permanent condition in which the person resurrected does not expire again – ever. Jesus is still in possession of his resurrection, having been raised eternal and incorruptible.

I believe Matthew 27:50-53 to be another miracle of Jesus. There is something symbolic to the timing but I haven't put my finger on it yet. But the Bible is not silent about that once we attain the Resurrection, we will not die anymore (Luke 20:35-36). So I see nothing besides miracles that some people got to live with their loved ones again on earth in Matthew 27:50-53.

It is essential that you allow the narrative to speak for itself. When it refers to the graves being opened and those who ‘slept’, i.e. those who were ‘dead,’ being raised, then they followed Jesus in his resurrection. The passage is vindication of the principle and fact of physical resurrection. It is clear that resurrection is what happened to those saints in Matthew 27.

Consider the miracles of Jesus and the purpose and part they played in his ministry and self-revelation of himself as the Messiah. Jesus changed the water into wine, showing that he had the power of creation, a characteristic he shared with his Father. When he stilled the waves, he demonstrated that he had power over the elements. He did the same when he walked on water. When he healed the man born blind, he said he had done it to show the power of God, as Jesus himself explained.

Healing the sick, the paralytic, the woman with the issue of blood, and all the other miracles that Jesus did were not only to benefit the individuals receiving his benison, but to show forth the power of God with which he, as the Son of God, was endowed.

When Jesus was raised from the dead never to die again, the time for miracles to persuade people that he was the Son of God endowed with the power of God the Father was past. He had given all the signs, the last of which was his being raised after he was dead.

The saints in Matt 27 were resurrected in the fullest sense of the word, not merely revivified. He had previously shown his power in calling back the eternal and immortal spirits of several people whether they were only just dead, recently dead, or, as in the case eof Lazarus, dead for a period greater than three days, something that only someone endowed with the power of God could do, according to Jewish belief.

The raising or Lazarus was a sure sign to unbelieving Jews that Jesus had the power of God the Father working within him, and many believed. That is what the Bible indicates at Matt 27, and that is precisely what it means.

Since you apparently failed to grasp my meaning when I said the Bible was silent, I will explain what I meant. I meant that the Bible was silent as to the fate of those who were raised at the same time of Jesus. I said nothing about psychics, so I don’t know how you, got side tracked into the occult when they were no part of my explanation. I was addressing those souls that were resurrected following the resurrection of Jesus. That is what I said, that is what I intended, and that is, as I understand the Bible, and I am not such a stranger to the Bible as you insultingly accuse.

You might benefit by broadening your understanding of other scholars’ appraisals of this event in the Matthean record by becoming familiar with some other arguments. The following sites contain some material that is consonant, although I do not subscribe to it all, but it will open the subject much wider than you have it at present, and I trust you will agree that the more we know the greater the opportunity we have for discovering the truth.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/oddrise.html

Were these saints resurrected in Matthew 27:52-53 just to live again and die or were they resurrected to eternal glory? -- John MacArthur (http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/1301-O-3.htm)

USCCB - NAB - Matthew 27 (http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew27.htm) – see note 31

What is the meaning of those who were raised to life at Jesus’ death (Matthew 27:52-53)? (http://www.gotquestions.org/resurrected-with-Jesus.html)

What Happened to the Resurrected Saints? (http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/religion/resurrected_saints.html)

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE RESURRECTED SAINTS? (http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1992/1/1saint92.html) – for an atheistic discussion of the event.

Whatever you believed happened and why, does not change the fact of what is recorded in the gospel of Matthew. Where the record is silent (nothing at all to do with psychics, so please do not revisit that on me!), we are left to consider from the text (what is written), the context (the circumstances and surrounding events in which it appears within the narrative), and the zeitgeist (the spirit of the age – in this case, Jewish belief), what the reader is intended to carry away from the story.

It is certain that when viewed in the completeness of text, context, and target audience (Palestinian Jews of the first Christian century), that they were intended to believe without argument that not only was Jesus resurrected to eternal life, but also that many of the saints who were also dead rose immediately afterwards, and produced many witnesses. Nothing else makes sense.

I trust that my position on this is clearer. If not, please feel free to ask me for further clarification.

M:)RGANITE

Morganite,
I was wondering(& still am) why you responded in post#54 the way you did. It made you sound like Matthew 27:50-53 was indeed an argument for ghosts.
Yes the people brought back to life were "revived" not resurrected. That we agree about.
I just don't understand what you meant in post #54. I'll read the other references you gave later on when I have more time, thanks.

"galveston (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../members/galveston.html) disagrees: Wait and see! "

What are you disagreeing with??

Morganite,
I was wondering(& still am) why you responded in post#54 the way you did. It made you sound like Matthew 27:50-53 was indeed an argument for ghosts.


Yes [SOME OF] the people brought back to life were "revived" not resurrected. That we agree about. [ONLY IOF YOU ACCEPT THAT THE PEOPLE REFERRED TO IN M 27 WERE RESURRECTED!!!]

I just don't understand what you meant in post #54. I'll read the other references you gave later on when I have more time, thanks.

PLEASE TAKE NOTICE:

I have never mentioned psychics.
I have never mentioned ghosts.

Please read what I did mention. If you cannot understand it then request clarification from me and I will be pleased to explain myself in clearer terms, but please try not to shoot off in different directions than those I actually addressed.

The people in Matt 27 were RESURRECTED. That is what the text says. Bodies do not rise without their spirit revitalising them, and the re-joining of the separated eternal spirit with the dead body is RESURRECTION. If the bodies rose without being RESURRECTED, then you would have soulless Zombies [in which I do not believe], not ghosts [in which I do believe].

I am labouring under the impression that I am capable of explaining what I mean without anyone getting lost, even where they disagree with my opinions, but you so badly mangle what I write and twist what I have said that you distort what I have written into things that I have not so much as mentioned.

??

So in your view, what will be the position of believers during the Great Tribulation?

I would say that it depends entirely on the faithfulness of the believers. Not all believers exercise the same degree of faithfulness and obedience to the will of the Father. I will add that it is not given to any man to be able to judge what the lot of each individual person will be at any time. That is for God and Christ to judge. However, Matt 7 does set out some facts on which individuals might question whether they are in compliance or not.

Morganite,
OK forget about the psychics. You didn't mention that but I thought you were commenting on it- so forget about that.
Anyway Luke 20:35-36 says that once we attain resurrection, we don't face death again. So the individual resurrections of Lazarus and the people mentioned in Matt27 could not be confused with the Resurrection of the Saints and The second resurrection-The Great White Throne of Judgment...
That's all. I'm basically agreeing with part of what robynhgl wrote that you quoted.

Morganite,
You're kidding, aren't you? To make any comparison to Matthew 27:50-53 to anything to do with what psychics tells me you are not serious.
Most would argue that it might have to do with the "spirits in prison" or the O.T. saints be resurrected if anything- but you show your lack of Biblical literacy with your statement where it pertains to what the Bible clearly is NOT silent about- which is psychics(one kind of witchcraft).
The Bible records several physical resurrections that have taken place. Once these people lived out their lives they died & are waiting to be brought back to life in one of the other ressurections. Some examples are given in 1Kings 17:17-24; 2Kings 4:32-37;13:20-21;Matthew 27:50-53;Luke 7:11-15;8:41-42; John11:1-4,11-14,17-44; Acts9:36-42...and more.
I believe Matthew 27:50-53 to be another miracle of Jesus. There is something symbolic to the timing but I haven't put my finger on it yet.
But the Bible is not silent about that once we attain the Resurrection, we will not die anymore(Luke 20:35-36).
So I see nothing besides miracles that some people got to live with their loved ones again on earth in Matthew 27:50-53.
So Morganite, what ARE you referring to, please?

Lazarus was revived and would have to die again.
Jairus' daughter was revived, etc.
The centurion's servant was revived, etc.

However, those saints (Christians and faithful Israelites) mentioned in Matt 27 were resurrceted and did not have to die again. Jesus was the "firstfruit of those resurrected" but the resurrection at this time was only a partial one and not the general resurrection yet to come.

M:)

"galveston (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../members/galveston.html) disagrees: Wait and see!!"

What are you disagreeing with????
With your post #38. I probably misunderstood what you were saying. Sorry.

Who? Me? Well, here's what I believe. Jesus will come back. I believe it will be pre-tribulation, because the Great Tribulation is when God finally pours His anger out on a rebellious humanity, and the Bible tells believers that they are not appointed for wrath. Also Jesus said it would be like it was in the days of Noah and Lot. I believe the point there is that Noah and his immediate family were on board the ark when it started to rain, and Lot was safely out of Sodom before the fire fell on it. But if God chooses to keep believers safe in the midst of the Great Tribulation, that would be OK too, but I don't read the Scriptures that way. The main point is simply, are you ready?



Ready or not, here he comes!

Ready or not, here he comes!
Did you mean Jesus, or galveston? LOL. Either way, I'm forewarned.

I don't see the second coming as a world event that happens to everybody alive at a single point in time (I know this version is not Biblically Correct, so don't even go there). I think it is an individual event that happens to different people at different times and to different degrees. The proportion of living people who have experienced it vividly changes over time, sometimes increasing, sometimes decreasing. Those who have experienced it are "new creatures" in the sense that having seen and felt the unity of all things, they can no longer act selfishly or in ways that damage or undermine that unity.

World events tend to reflect whether the proportion of such people is higher or lower in the population in a particular era. Where do you think that pendulum is right now? Is there a time in history when you think it was higher than it is now?

http:
//www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's%20Corner/pretribulation_rapture.htm (http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's%20Corner/pretribulation_rapture.htm)

Personally I'm not that concerned about when the "Rapture of the Church" will be because I think I'm going to be one of the "dead in Christ". However the Pre-Trib/Post-Trib/ Split-Trib readings have been very interesting. This morning Pastor John Hagee (televangelist) was teaching about Revelation.
I missed the series but the overhead diagram he had there clearly showed the "Rapture" prior to the Great Tribulation. Then I thought about how much tribulation many believers have already overcome & logic won. What would be the purpose of having those in Christ go through "God's winepress of wrath" in the end times? :confused:

Jesus will come again when he is no longer needed. (that is, when we all believe we can some how save ourselves.)

Jesus will come again when he is no longer needed. (that is, when we all believe we can some how save our selves.)

We will NEVER ALL believe that so don't include me in your "we" description. We will always need Jesus & we cannot save ourselves without Him. :rolleyes:

Did you mean Jesus, or galveston? LOL. Either way, I'm forewarned.

I don't see the second coming as a world event that happens to everybody alive at a single point in time (I know this version is not Biblically Correct, so don't even go there). I think it is an individual event that happens to different people at different times and to different degrees. The proportion of living people who have experienced it vividly changes over time, sometimes increasing, sometimes decreasing. Those who have experienced it are "new creatures" in the sense that having seen and felt the unity of all things, they can no longer act selfishly or in ways that damage or undermine that unity.

World events tend to reflect whether the proportion of such people is higher or lower in the population in a particular era. Where do you think that pendulum is right now? Is there a time in history when you think it was higher than it is now?
Surely, you jest, sir! "Don't even go there"? How is it possible to have a discussion of Christian religion without using the Bible? Also, I notice that the word and concept of "unity" appear regularly in these posts. I'm curious, is your god the God of the Bible, or is it "Unity"? Do you folks worship unity?

We will NEVER ALL believe that so don't include me in your "we" description. We will always need Jesus & we cannot save ourselves without Him. :rolleyes:
I think you took that the wrong way. What I meant was, when we think we don't need Christ, is when we really need him the most. Jesus is our salvation.

Surely, you jest, sir! "Don't even go there"? How is it possible to have a discussion of Christian religion without using the Bible"?
Your original question was "What are your thoughts about the return of Jesus Christ?". I answered the question, that's all. If you only wanted answers that were consistent with your interpretation of the Bible, you should have phrased your question differently.


Also, I notice that the word and concept of "unity" appear regularly in these posts. I'm curious, is your god the God of the Bible, or is it "Unity"? Do you folks worship unity?
"You folks"? Are you addressing a group of people, or me individually? Speaking only for myself, I don't worship unity, but I do experience it as a reality from time to time. Do you find the concept offensive or inconsistent with "the God of the Bible"?

Your original question was "What are your thoughts about the return of Jesus Christ?". I answered the question, that's all. If you only wanted answers that were consistent with your interpretation of the Bible, you should have phrased your question differently.


"You folks"? Are you addressing a group of people, or me individually? Speaking only for myself, I don't worship unity, but I do experience it as a reality from time to time. Do you find the concept offensive or inconsistent with "the God of the Bible"?
Well, yes, inconsistent. Jesus plainlly said there is a broad way that leads to destruction and many travel on it, and that there is a narrow path that leads to heaven but few find it. This is not unity.

Well, yes, inconsistent. Jesus plainlly said there is a broad way that leads to destruction and many travel on it, and that there is a narrow path that leads to heaven but few find it. This is not unity.
May you find fulfillment in your divisions.

2nd Coming Christ is the last Adam, a life giving Spirit 1Cor 15:45
But why is second coming Christ a patern of Adam? Think about it, if Adam is there who else is with him? Eve, The Mother of all the Living.
So the last Adam should bring Eve right? Let's find out who Even is prophetically.

Two events will take place. First he must let the world know the truth, and gather the elect. THEN judgment day will come. He has to come in the order of Melchizedek and be the offspring of King David (Spiritually, not physically) and restore Zion and finish fulfilling the King David prophecy. Which has been done so already:) Right now we're in the last page of the book of Revelations

Rev 22:17"The Spirit and the Bride say come... "

Who is the bride? Some say "The church is the bride" NOT TRUE.
A prophecy takes place in the future, not in the present. Back then, the churches (Synagogues) where already existing. Some say "We are the bride" NOT TRUE, people
Also existed back then. Who is the bride then? This revelation was given to John, and it was going to take place in the future.

Rev 21:9
"One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God."

Rev 21:2
"I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God

Can a city be a bride? No way, it's a parable.

The dwelling of God will be with man. This is His second coming, when he comes to bring salvation
But instead of showing him the bride, he showed him a city? So, this bride is the wife of the Lamb. The Lamb is our Father, than who's the bride? It's a parable friends:)


Gal 4:26 "But the Jerusalem that is above is free and she is our Mother"

Heb 9:28
"so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."

Think about it. Physically who gives life? Mother gives life. But, even from the beginning God let us know his nature

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

Let's see what happened in the creationg

Gen 1:26

"Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness... "
God speaks in plural here.

Gen 1:27

"So God created man in his own image,
In the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.


ELOHIM GOD. Father God and Mother God:) Together, 1 God:) The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are one, so when God said 'let US' it wasn't the trinity speaking,
It was Father God and Mother God.
Only Mother can give us eternal life. We have to believe in Mother Jerusalem for she is the true meaning of the Passover.

Will,
I appreciate some of what you claim but I have to disagree with you on the bride.
The Bride at the wedding feast of the Lamb is THE CHURCH. I can appreciate Jerusalem & the New Jerusalem to come & the story of the Passover. But Revelation 22:17-The Spirit and the bride say,"Come!"... Now, since when does a city speak?

That's why I said that the City is not the Bride. In other words, it's a parable, if you read again what I wrote carefully, you'll
See that the Last Eve is supposed to show up in the last days, a life giving spirit. She is Mother God:) She's referred to as a city
Because she will fulfuill the prophecy of the 144,000 (Rev 14). Spiritual children, not physical. We have to know Mother God, in order
To entere the everlasting kingdom.

This is a revelation that was going to take place in the future. The Church was established when this revelation was given to John.
According to Gal 4:26 "But the Jerusalem that is above is free and she is our Mother"

The Bride is not the church. A building cannot give you the water of life only the Spirit (Father God) and the Bride (Mother God, The New Jerusalem).
Think about it. Why do we call God Father? Why not just, God? Everything God mad was so that on the last day we cannot have an excuse. Even plants
Have a male and female. Even batteries. Positive and Negative.


Rom 1:20
"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

This is what Jesus said:

Mat 13:35

"So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet:
"I will open my mouth in parables,
I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."


That means there is something hidden in the creation of the world.

Gen 1:26





27:So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

So according to the bible, God created man in God's own image.
But how many images came out? 2 images came out. Male & Female


The word ELOHIM is plural for God. In the hebrew bible, God is referred to as ELOHIM
Which is plural for God.


Some may argue God was speaking to the angels in the creation but the Angels had no power of creation. Some may say he was talking to the church, but obviously the church didn't exist. Other says he was talking to us but as we now, we were being created back then.

Hmm,
Did you ever hear the expression"why have an Ishmael when you can have an Isaac?" Bc Isaac was the real deal. BC God made His covenant with Isaac. So, I see, the free man is in Isaac & the New Jerusalem?(Genesis 17:18) Ok, but where does the "mother" you mentioned come from? This is about the return of Jesus, I don't use the word"mother". Perhap you use gender thing but since God is written as the Father & Jesus the Son- I use "Him"
I see your point about the mother being the New Jerusalem in Galatians, but it doesn't hold much weight when describing the bride. The church of believers is the bride. Sorry if it sounded like a building!
Babylon- mother of the great prostitute in Revelation-- or the phrase mother nature--that's all that really stands out to me.
Here's a reference that supports' the bride 'meaning:The Bride of Christ (http://www.seekerstrove.com/bride.html)

Hmm,
Did you ever hear the expression"why have an Ishmael when you can have an Isaac?" Bc Isaac was the real deal. BC God made His covenant with Isaac. So, I see, the free man is in Isaac & the New Jerusalem?(Genesis 17:18) Ok, but where does the "mother" you mentioned come from? This is about the return of Jesus, I don't use the word"mother". Perhap you use gender thing but since God is written as the Father & Jesus the Son- I use "Him"
I see your point about the mother being the New Jerusalem in Galatians, but it doesn't hold much weight when describing the bride. The church of believers is the bride. Sorry if it sounded like a building!
Babylon- mother of the great prostitute in Revelation-- or the phrase mother nature--that's all that really stands out to me.
Here's a reference that supports' the bride 'meaning:The Bride of Christ (http://www.seekerstrove.com/bride.html)


God made his covenant with Sarah to be more specific. Because she was the free woman. Sarah represents Jerusalem, our Mother. The church cannot be the bride. A building cannot give you eternal life. Only the free woman can bare free children. That's why two covenants were made. Free woman bore Isaac, the free son whom inherited all of Abram's possesions. Hagar was the slave woman, whom delivers slaves. Old Covenant and New Covenant. New Covenant is the Passover, Jesus said "And I will raise him up at the last day" WHy the last day? Because obviously the bride, Jerusalem, our Mother shows up in the last days to give us eternal life.

Hmm,
Did you ever hear the expression"why have an Ishmael when you can have an Isaac?" Bc Isaac was the real deal. BC God made His covenant with Isaac. So, I see, the free man is in Isaac & the New Jerusalem?(Genesis 17:18) Ok, but where does the "mother" you mentioned come from? This is about the return of Jesus, I don't use the word"mother". Perhap you use gender thing but since God is written as the Father & Jesus the Son- I use "Him"
I see your point about the mother being the New Jerusalem in Galatians, but it doesn't hold much weight when describing the bride. The church of believers is the bride. Sorry if it sounded like a building!
Babylon- mother of the great prostitute in Revelation-- or the phrase mother nature--that's all that really stands out to me.
Here's a reference that supports' the bride 'meaning:The Bride of Christ (http://www.seekerstrove.com/bride.html)

This may not be the answer you seek, but Jews at Elephantine believed that God had a wife/consort whom they called (if memory serves me well) their mother in heaven, or some such.

M:)

God made his covenant with Sarah to be more specific. Because she was the free woman. Sarah represents Jerusalem, our Mother. The church cannot be the bride. a building cannot give you eternal life. Only the free woman can bare free children. That's why two covenants were made. Free woman bore Isaac, the free son whom inherited all of Abram's possesions. Hagar was the slave woman, whom delivers slaves. Old Covenant and New Covenant. New Covenant is the Passover, Jesus said "And I will raise him up at the last day" WHy the last day? Because obviously the bride, Jerusalem, our Mother shows up in the last days to give us eternal life.

The Christian Church is not a building, and no one thinks it is. In the times of ancient Israel yahveh says, "You are married to me, o Israel" indicating the bride-bridegroom relationship between God and his people.

With the apparent rejection of mashiach by the preponderance of Israelitish peoples, it is assumed that the disciples of Jesus mashiach became the new people of God with whom he established a new covenant or testament.

Therefore, citing them, the New People of God in the ecclesia of mashiach, corporately as the bride of Christ, re-establishes the covenant relationship with them in exactly the same way as it was in the time of the former or Old Covenant or Testament.

Romans chapters 9 to 11 is Paul's vindication of God's apparent getting it wrong by assuming that the chosen people would welcome his Son as the long-promised and eagerly awaited mashiach.

Have you explained how pesach is become the New Covenant? If so, then I am sorry I missed it.

M:)RGANITE

Well, yes, inconsistent. Jesus plainlly said there is a broad way that leads to destruction and many travel on it, and that there is a narrow path that leads to heaven but few find it. This is not unity.

The ideal according to the Bible is:

One Lord,
One Faith,
One Baptism.


If that is not a scriptural prescription for unity, then there is none. However, it is not the only plea for unity. Actually, it is more a directive than a plea. Paul writes to the church at Corinth condeming the fact that there were serious schisms among them; some boasting that they were of Paul, others that they were of Apollos, others of Cephas, and still others of Christ; which led Paul to ask sharply, "Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you?"

There were endless strifes as well as divisions among them, which caused Paul to denounce them as carnally minded. They were so disunified that they were in the habit of going to law one with another, and that before the world, in violation of the teachings of Jesus Christ. They desecrated the ordinances of the Lord's Supper by their drunkenness, for which they were sharply reproved by the Apostle. They ate and drank unworthily, "not discerning the Lord's body; for which cause many were sickly among them, and many slept" (that is, died).

There were heresies also among them, some denying the resurrection of the dead, while others did not possess the knowledge of God, which the Apostle declared was their shame. This sharp letter of reproof made the Corinthian saints sorry after a godly fashion, that brought them to a partial repentance, but even in the second epistle, from which we learn of their partial repentance, the Apostle could still charge that there were many in the Church who had not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they had committed.

From this second letter, we also learn that there were many in the church at large who corrupted the word of God, and that there were those in the ministry, who were "false prophets, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ."

This is the unity that should mark the congregations of the church of Christ. Where it is absent, God is displeased. Now this is a different matter than those who are on thr broad path, for these are they who will say they are on the strait and narrow way, but unless they are unified they are found walking after some other master. How then can anyone say there is no call for unity among Christians in the Bible?

Vagrant interpretations that lean too far into allegory are capable of leading people astray much more quick than any other means, and we should avoid stretching and torturing the scriptures to make them say what we imagine is right even when it contradicts what is written. God made his covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as individual covenants.

But in the time of Moses he made his covenant with the whole people of Israel, not with an individual, and it is clear from the scripture that the New Covenant was with a whole people and not wirh a woman alone.



M:)

Have you explained how pesach is become the New Covenant? If so, then I am sorry I missed it.

M:)RGANITE


Don't be sorry


Mat 26:17-19

N the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"

18He replied, "Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, 'The Teacher says: My appointed time is near. I am going to celebrate the Passover with my disciples at your house.' " 19So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them and prepared the Passover. "

What did Jesus want to celebrate? He said Passover three times.


Mat 26:26-28

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."

27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Jesus fulfilled the O.T. passover by celebrating it with bread and wine. It is celebrated once a year only. The 14th day of the 1st Month according to the Sacred Calendar. This is the New Covenant for the forgiveness of sins. Not communion or euchrist, or Lord's Supper, Jesus called it Passover

John 6:53

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh (passover bread) of the Son of Man and drink his blood (Passover Wine), you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.

As you can see, Jesus celebrated the Passover with his desciples. Let's see if it's important or not to celebrate the Passover


Luke 22:15
"And he said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer

Before he suffered he "eagerly" wanted to celebrate the Passover. Not communion, or anything else, Jesus called it Passover.

"And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you."


That is the New Covenant. But if you notice, Jesus said "and I will raise him up at the last day" In order for us to be raised up and go to heaven, we must celebrate the Passover.

According to the Bible it will happen when the world is one new world order, after 7 years of ruling and so on. I think it may happen like that, truly I do, we have seen two men close to achieving world domination, Napoleon and Hitler.

According to the Bible it will happen when the world is one new world order, after 7 years of ruling and so on. I think it may happen like that, truly I do, we have seen two men close to achieving world domination, Napolean and Hitler.

How close were each of them to world domination country by country?

The ideal according to the Bible is:

One Lord,
One Faith,
One Baptism.


If that is not a scriptural prescription for unity, then there is none. However, it is not the only plea for unity. Actually, it is more a directive than a plea. Paul writes to the church at Corinth condeming the fact that there were serious schisms among them; some boasting that they were of Paul, others that they were of Apollos, others of Cephas, and still others of Christ; which led Paul to ask sharply, "Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you?"

There were endless strifes as well as divisions among them, which caused Paul to denounce them as carnally minded. They were so disunified that they were in the habit of going to law one with another, and that before the world, in violation of the teachings of Jesus Christ. They desecrated the ordinances of the Lord's Supper by their drunkenness, for which they were sharply reproved by the Apostle. They ate and drank unworthily, "not discerning the Lord's body; for which cause many were sickly among them, and many slept" (that is, died).

There were heresies also among them, some denying the resurrection of the dead, while others did not possess the knowledge of God, which the Apostle declared was their shame. This sharp letter of reproof made the Corinthian saints sorry after a godly fashion, that brought them to a partial repentance, but even in the second epistle, from which we learn of their partial repentance, the Apostle could still charge that there were many in the Church who had not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they had committed.

From this second letter, we also learn that there were many in the church at large who corrupted the word of God, and that there were those in the ministry, who were "false prophets, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ."

This is the unity that should mark the congregations of the church of Christ. Where it is absent, God is displeased. Now this is a different matter than those who are on thr broad path, for these are they who will say they are on the strait and narrow way, but unless they are unified they are found walking after some other master. How then can anyone say there is no call for unity among Christians in the Bible?

Vagrant interpretations that lean too far into allegory are capable of leading people astray much quicker than any other means, and we should avoid stretching and torturing the scriptures to make them say what we imagine is right even when it contradicts what is written. God made his covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as individual covenants.

But in the time of Moses he made his covenant with the whole people of Israel, not with an individual, and it is clear from the scripture that the New Covenant was with a whole people and not wirh a woman alone.



M:)
We seem to be talking about different things. All that you say is true within the Church, but there are a lot of people reading these posts who are in no way connected with the Church. There is no way the Church and unbelievers can achieve unity unless one or the other gives up what they believe. I think you have misunderstood me.

A question for Will144: Are you arguing for keeping one or more points of the Law?

According to the Bible it will happen when the world is one new world order, after 7 years of ruling and so on. I think it may happen like that, truly I do, we have seen two men close to achieving world domination, Napolean and Hitler.
Actually, it appears that Antichrist will never achieve world domination. His rule will be marked by war, and there are nations mentioned in the Middle East that will not be subject to him. BUT, in those areas where he does rule, it will be totalitarian.

We seem to be talking about different things. All that you say is true within the Church, but there are a lot of people reading these posts who are in no way connected with the Church. There is no way the Church and unbelievers can achieve unity unless one or the other gives up what they believe. I think you have misunderstood me.

If I have misunderstood you, then I am sorry. I do not intend to do so.

I cannot accept that any but those inside the community of Christians can affect Christian unity/disunity. That matter is in God's mind and our hands, and wars will cease when men refuse to fight.

Christ's ideal is unity within His church, not unity with those outside the church. Can we achieve Christians unity and come to one Lord, one faith, and one baptism? I will say that my question is really this:

"Does the will exist within the whole of Christianity to do what Jesus and God want and come together, bury our differences, and do what is right, or is all Christendom committed to divisiveness, separation, and ungodly internecine war?"

If we are not unified, are we, then, really Christ's? Why do we call Jesus "Lord" but do not do what he commands?

M:)RGANITE

A question for Will144: Are you arguing for keeping one or more points of the Law?
Aha! The question of Judaizing Christianity. Perhaps a shade of Seventh Day Adventism, or Messianic Jews, or Jews for Jesus, or some such cult. All these Judaizing groups militate against the spirit and word of the NT.

By Law, you mean the Mosaic ritual Law and not the law of the gospel of Jesus? If you love me keep my commandments (the Law of the gospel of Jesus Christ)...

Perhaps I am mistaken, huh?

Yes, maybe something to do with Levitical or Mosaic law, which cannot pertain to Christians because of the new covenant. (See Galatians 3) Will, it is close to heresy to apply your statements from a Christian perspective.
The Mosaic Law in Leviticus was given to Moses specifically for the Jewish people. There is a big difference between the Mosaic law (written by Moses hand, given to the Jews) and the Ten Commandments which are for everyone ( they were written by God, on tablets of stone, kept in the ark of the covenant). I don't have to keep the law of Moses but Jesus Christ enables me to not steal, not to fornicate, not to murder etc. (which are the ten commandments)... Yet the Ten commandments were summed up by Jesus as "Love God" and "love your neighbor".

There is a big difference between the Mosaic law (written by Moses hand, given to the Jews) and the Ten Commandments which are for everyone ( they were written by God, on tablets of stone, kept in the ark of the covenant). I dont have to keep the law of Moses but Jesus Christ enables me to not steal, not to fornicate, not to murder etc. (which are the ten commandments)...
What about "the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God"? That's in the Ten Commandments, yet few Christians observe it. Jesus certainly didn't change it. It wasn't discarded by Christians until many years later, in an attempt to appeal to sun-worshipping Romans.

What about "the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God"? That's in the Ten Commandments, yet few Christians observe it. Jesus certainly didn't change it. It wasn't discarded by Christians until many years later, in an attempt to appeal to sun-worshipping Romans.
Are you the grinch who stole Christmas and missed all the JOY?
See this article . I thought we observed on Sunday because the Lord rose on a Sunday. I am partly correct.
"for the joy of the Lord is your Strength"(Ne 8:10)
Why do Christians worship on Sunday instead of Saturday? (http://www.lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2005/01-17.htm)

Are you the grinch who stole Christmas and missed all the JOY?!
See this article . I thought we observed on Sunday bc the Lord rose on a Sunday. I am partly correct.
"for the joy of the Lord is your Strength"(Ne 8:10)
Why do Christians worship on Sunday instead of Saturday? (http://www.lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2005/01-17.htm)
It's OK with me if you want to pick which of the ten commandments to obey. The link you provided says that Christians aren't bound by ANY of the Old Testament laws, including the Ten Commandments, but that's not what you said in your post. It just seems to me that if you believe that there is an important difference between the Ten Commandments and the other Mosaic laws, you'd want to obey ALL of them. There are plenty of rationalizations for why Christians keep Sunday, but none of them have any scriptural basis, as far as I can tell. As a historical matter, the practice started quite awhile after Jesus' time.

It's OK with me if you want to pick and choose which of the ten commandments to obey. The link you provided says that Christians aren't bound by ANY of the Old Testament laws, including the Ten Commandments, but that's not what you said in your post. It just seems to me that if you believe that there is an important difference between the Ten Commandments and the other Mosaic laws, you'd want to obey ALL of them. There are plenty of rationalizations for why Christians keep Sunday, but none of them have any scriptural basis, as far as I can tell. As a historical matter, the practice started quite awhile after Jesus' time.
And it's OK with me if you are a seventh-day adventist. And I guess you didn't read the highlighted area about why we don't practice the Old Law either. BTW, are you very familiar with scripture? Because they do have scriptural basis.
But as far as history goes- the Apostles broke bread on the 1st day of the week.
See the refute page:



Constantine's decree: "On the venerable Day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed." (Constantine, March 7, 321. Codex Justinianus lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; trans. In Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3, p. 380, note 1)

Answer: Constantine did not change the Sabbath to Sunday, he merely created the first "Sunday closure law" because Christians had been worshipping on the first day of the week since apostolic times.

Sabbatarians can't get their story straight! Who changed the Sabbath? Is it the pope, Constantine or some Christians in Rome?

* First they say the Pope changed the Sabbath. Then, when that proves false, they claim Constantine changed it! Then when that is proven wrong they now say that "Christians in Rome" changed the Sabbath to Sunday
* There is nothing here to say that Constantine changed anything. Constantine is making a civil decree that because Christians were already meeting on Sunday, as they were doing since the time of the Apostles, that Christians should not work on Sunday. Read it again!
* Today, it is not a sin to work on any day of the week! But it is a sin to not partake of the communion and give every first day of the week! Acts 20:7; 1 Cor 16:1-2; Heb 10:24-25

Three wrong guesses, you’re out!

The so called "inspired prophet" Ellen White originally claimed the Pope started "Sunday worship" White later changed her mind and said the Emperor Constantine introduced "Sunday worship" in 325 AD. Today, Adventists blame the interaction of Sunday worship on Christians in 135 AD and not the Pope or Constantine!



Guess #1: the Pope introduced Sunday worship.

The Roman Catholic Pope DID NOT change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday as Sabbath keepers falsely teach. Yes Catholics do claim they changed the Sabbath, but they also claim that Peter was the first pope! Sabbath Keepers reject the Catholic claim that Peter was the first pope, so they are in grave error for accepting the Catholic claim that the pope changed the Sabbath to Sunday!



Guess #2: It was Constantine in 325 AD.

Constantine (325 AD) DID NOT change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday as Sabbath keepers falsely teach. Christians never kept the Sabbath from the apostolic age (33 AD) through the time of Constantine (325AD). Constantine merely made the first "Sunday closure law", since it had already been the day Christians worship for 300 years!



Today’s guess #3: Christians in 135 AD.

The historical claims of Samuele Bacchiocchi, Seventh-day Adventist, refuted. Bacchiocchi is likely the top Seventh-day Adventist historian in the world. His search for the origin of "first day worship" has led him to reject the traditional position of his church, and his founding prophet, Ellen G. White who claimed "Sunday keeping" began with Constantine in 325 AD. His view, which is increasingly being adopted by the Seventh-day Adventist church, is that Christians in 135 AD were first to worship on the first day of the week.



The truth: Apostles in 33 AD introduced Sunday worship.

In addition to Acts 20:7 and 1 Cor 16:1-2, click here for irrefutable historical proof!

And it's ok with me if you are a seventh-day adventist.
I'm not a seventh-day adventist, I just think your inconsistency is amusing. First, you say that the Ten Commandments "are for everyone" and then you say that one of them doesn't apply to you. We're not so different, really. We both pick what to accept and what to disregard. Nothing wrong or surprising about that.

I'm not a seventh-day adventist, I just think your inconsistency is amusing. First, you say that the Ten Commandments "are for everyone" and then you say that one of them doesn't apply to you. We're not so different, really. We both pick and choose what to accept and what to disregard. Nothing wrong or surprising about that.

So, you weren't looking to debate anything, you were looking to find something wrong with me that you could pretend to find amusing!!
Jesus summed up the Commandments 1) Love the Lord your God... 2) Love your neighbor like yourself. The others are to learn from.
So, don't be so anti-Christian in the future & maybe you won't have to pick & choose an argument.


Thank you Jesus.

So, you weren't looking to debate anything, you were looking to find something wrong with me that you could pretend to find amusing!!!!
I 'm not pretending! I really am amused. This kind of contorted and selective use of the Bible is why I can't take it too seriously when I'm beat about the head and shoulders with Bible texts by people who are trying to convince me to believe like they do.

We all decide to accept some things and disregard others in whatever holy books we read. Nothing wrong with that. There's no need insist that only one holy book is legitimate, and only one interpretation of it is valid. Unless you're trying to be funny.

Jesus summed up the Commandments 1) Love the Lord your God...2) Love your neighbor like yourself. The others are to learn from.
I'm confused now - so there are only 2 commandments, the other are suggestions?

I 'm not pretending! I really am amused. This kind of contorted and selective use of the Bible is why I can't take it too seriously when I'm beat about the head and shoulders with Bible texts by people who are trying to convince me to believe like they do.

We all decide to accept some things and disregard others in whatever holy books we read. Nothing wrong with that. There's no need insist that only one holy book is legitimate, and only one interpretation of it is valid. Unless you're trying to be funny.

ordinaryguy,
We werediscussing the Christian Bible, weren't we? Yet you throw up your hands & accuse someone, (perhaps me because you wrote under my quote) that there's no need to insist (see above) So where did that statement come from? I never said there weren't other interpretations rfrom the Bible, & whether my Holy Book is the only one valid for me, is my business. Certainly, I see, you never address the original question. Is anyone to take your Biblical/ Christian seriously? How credible a Christian (or religious Jew) are you when you post in threads like "zodiac matching", tarot cards, & astrology? Yes, I looked up your posts.
Seems like you serve 2 masters to me.
The one that is quite telling is this:
Question


#1
Old Dec 10, 2006, 06:12 PM
ordinaryguy
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Heretic, apostate or what?
I used to believe that the Bible was the directly inspired word of God. I believed that Adam and Eve's sin corrupted the whole world and caused all people to be born into sin. I believed that God demanded death as the punishment for sin and that Jesus died to satisfy this demand and make salvation possible.

Now I believe that the Bible is a book of spiritual wisdom similar to many other such books in the world, but not the directly inspired word of God or the only true scripture. I can understand sin as separation or estrangement from our spiritual source, but I don't think death is the punishment for it, and I don't believe that Jesus' death was necessary to save anyone from it. I think he was killed because he attacked the idea that God has a "chosen people" and that membership in this group confers special spiritual benefits. Although he probably could have avoided being crucified, I think he decided to take it to the limit to make a point about the fruits of spiritual pride, arrogance and bigotry.

My question is, am I properly classified as a heretic, an apostate, a heathen, an unbeliever, or what?

I'm confused now - so there are only 2 commandments, the other are suggestions?
Needkarma,
The 10 Commandments in the O.T. are guides for living & to be learned from.
The New T. describes almost all of them. But it does not enforce the "Sabbath" commandment. This was the point someone made about me picking & choosing commandments!
Please see Matthew 19:18-19; Matthew 22:37-40; Romans13:9-10. I do not have time to write them out today. I mean, I do obey the Commandments for the most part, but as a Christian, I do not have to obey the Sabbath. We (my Church) doesn't discriminate against observing 7th-day Adventists at all.
I go with the New Testament mostly. The early Christians were persecuted. They held their "services" on the 1st day of the week. Part of that tradition came from wanting to distinguish themselves from the Jews. I don't know the whole story,but I go with what the Christian worship always was without pointing the finger at the Church leaders saying, "You are breaking a Commandment! Poof! They can read the New Testament for themselves!
Peace to you.

So, don't be so anti-Christian in the future & maybe you won't have to pick & choose an argument.
I'm not anti-Christian, I'm anti-fundamentalist, whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, or Rastafarian.


We werediscussing the Christian Bible, weren't we? Yet you throw up your hands & accuse someone, (perhaps me bc you wrote under my quote) that there's no need to insist (see above) So where did that statement come from? I never said there weren't other interpretations rfrom the Bible, & whether my Holy Book is the only one valid for me, is my business.
I only accused you of being inconsistent for saying that the Ten Commandments apply to everyone, and then saying that one (or more?) of them doesn't apply to you. If you do indeed believe that there can be more than one legitimate Scripture, and more than one valid interpretation of the Bible, I salute you for your broad mindedness.


Certainly, I see, you never address the original question.
Which question is that? If you mean the OP about the Second Coming, I did address it. See post #71.


Is anyone to take your Biblical/ Christian seriously? How credible a Christian (or religious Jew) are you when you post in threads like "zodiac matching", tarot cards, & astrology? Yes, I looked up your posts.
Seems like you serve 2 masters to me.
I'm at a loss to understand how you conclude that I'm either a Biblical Christian or a religious Jew. I am neither and haven't claimed to be. I thought the post you quoted made that pretty clear. Who are the two masters that you think I serve?

Morganite--

If you don't mind, I'd appreciate your thoughts on when and why the early Christians began to worship on Sunday. I respect your knowledge of early church history, and I've always wondered how the change came about. It seems like abrogating one of the Ten Commandments would have been a pretty big deal and surely must have generated more debate and controversy than the writers of the New Testament relate, which leads me to think it must have happened later. How long after Jesus' death did it occur, and was it at least partly an attempt to co-opt the Roman sun cults as I've supposed? I don't really have a dog in the fight, I'd just like to know the history of it in more detail.

Let me get this straight:
So Jesus left, and he is coming back but really he is still here? Or, he left, and will come back but he is not still here? If he is not still here, then there are a lot of poor disillusioned people walking around telling me they have him. Where do they have him if he is not here and where did he go if they don't really have him? Heaven? So how will he get from heaven to here and if people really do have him, how can they have him if he is in heaven and not here? If he is not here, but will come back here, and he is in heaven, what is he doing there, getting ready to come back here? So just how long does it take him to get ready? I'm ready and I'm here. Is he not ready and he is over there or is he ready and really over here? Or both? Or will he be here when he is ready? How long does it take to get from there to here? How long does it take to get from here to there? Where? Over there. When? That's the question. How? Don't know. Who? Jesus. Why? Don't know.
Don't know.

Let me get this straight:
So Jesus left, and he is comming back but really he is still here? Or, he left, and will come back but he is not still here? If he is not still here, then there are a lot of poor disalusioned poeple walking around telling me they have him. Where do they have him if he is not here and where did he go if they don't really have him? Heaven? So how will he get from heaven to here and if people really do have him, how can they have him if he is in heaven and not here? If he is not here, but will come back here, and he is in heaven, what is he doing there, getting ready to come back here? So just how long does it take him to get ready? I'm ready and I'm here. Is he not ready and he is over there or is he ready and really over here? Or both? Or will he be here when he is ready? How long does it take to get from there to here? How long does it take to get from here to there? Where? Over there. When? That's the question. How? Don't know. Who? Jesus. Why? Don't know.
Don't know.
What an amazing composition! Congratulations. I will attempt to address your questions in fewer words than it took you to present them. Should I fail in the endeavour, please pardon me.

Jesus was here and then he left, but he will return 'in like manner' to his departing. What is meant by having Jesus in your heart is not the physical indwelling of Christ, but the influence of the Holy Spirit, who serves as Comforter during the period of Christ's physical absence from earth.

The time of his return is a matter for God alone. Even Jesus did not know when that would be, although he left clues. The Parousia is not, evidently, a matter of jesus preparing himself, but of the earth preparing to receive him.

Jesus moves at the speed of Jesus, which is the speed of light divided by the distance from heaven to earth. Do the math.

I am happy to serve as your deconfuser.

Score: Magprob 207 - M:)RGANITE 121

M:)RGANITE

Part III

This conclusion is supported by the fact that the first day of the week (Sunday) is called a sabbath eight times in the original Greek Bible. Why would the first day of the week (Sunday) be called a sabbath in the Bible if it were not a sabbath? And how did it become a sabbath other than as we have explained?

"In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week. . . ." (Matthew 28:1. In Greek, "sabbath" instead of "first day of the week.")

This text may be confusing because of its reference to two sabbaths, unless one keeps in mind the fact that the Christian sabbath (first day of the week) follows immediately the Jewish sabbath (seventh day of the week). Hence the reference to two sabbaths.

And very early in the morning the first day of the week. .. (Mark 16:2. In Greek, "sabbath" instead of "first day of the week.")

Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week.

Now upon the first day of the week. .. . (Luke 24:1. In Greek, "sabbath" instead of "first day of the week.")

The first day of the week. . . . (John 20:1. In Greek, "sabbath" instead of "first day of the week.")

Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week. (John 20:19. In Greek, "sabbath" instead of "first day of the week.")

And upon the first day of the week. .. . (Acts 20:7. In Greek, "sabbath" instead of "first day of the week.")

Upon the first day of the week. .. . (1 Corinthians 16:2. In Greek, "sabbath" instead of "first day of the week.")

From the foregoing, it should be clear that the writers of the New Testament fully understood that the first day of the week (Sunday) was a sabbath day, and that it was the day upon which the saints met to worship.

The early church historians stated that the first day of the week, the day on which the Lord arose from the tomb, was held sacred by the Christians as a day of worship. This, together with the evidence we have already submitted, refutes the claims of some that the change from Saturday to Sunday was instituted by Constantine, Emperor of Rome:

. . . It is indeed true, that Constantine's life was not such as the precepts of Christianity required; and it is also true that he remained a catechumen (unbaptized Christian) all his life, and was received to full membership in the church, by baptism at Nicomedia only a few days before his death. … That Constantine, long before this time, A.D. 324, declared himself a Christian, and was acknowledged as such by the churches, is certain. It is also true, he had for a long time performed the religious acts of an unbaptized Christian, that is, of a catechumen; for he attended public worship, fasted, prayed, observed the Christian Sabbath and the anniversaries of the martyrs, and watched on the vigils of Easter, etc.” (Mosheim's Church History, Book 2, Century 4, Part 1, Chap. 1:8.)

. . . The Christians of this century, in piety, assembled for the worship of God and for their advancement of the first day of the week, the day on which Christ reassumed his life; for that this day was set apart for religious worship by the apostles themselves, and that, after the example of the church at Jerusalem, it was generally observed, we have unexceptionable testimony.”(Mosheim's Church History, Book 1, Century 1, Part 2, Chap. 4:4.)

Those who were brought up in the ancient order of things, have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath (Jewish or seventh day), but living in the observance of the Lord's day (first day) on which also our life was sprung by him and his death. (Epistle to the Magnesians, 101 A.D. Chap. 9, Ignatius.)

On one day, the first day of the week, we assembled ourselves together. (Barderaven, A.D. 130.)

And on the day which is called Sunday, there is an assembly in the same place of all who live in cities, or in country districts; and the records of the Apostles, or the writings of the Prophets, are read as long as we have time. . . . Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, when He changed the darkness and matter, made the world: and Jesus Christ our Savior, on the same day, rose from the dead. . .. (Justin Martyr, Apologies, 1:67 A.D. 140.)

He, in fulfilment of the precept according to the gospel, keeps the Lord's day. (Clement of Alexandria, Book 7, Chap. 12, A.D. 193.)

We neither accord with the Jews in their peculiarities in regard to food nor in their sacred days. (Apologies, Sec. 21, A.D. 200.)

We ourselves are accustomed to observe certain days, as for example, the Lord's day. (Origen, Book 3, Chap. 23, A.D. 201.)

But why is it, you ask, that we gather on the Lord's day to celebrate our solemnities? Because that was the way the Apostles also did. (De Fuga XIV:11, 141,200 A.D.)



M:)RGANITE

Morganite--I'd appreciate your thoughts on when and why the early Christians began to worship on Sunday.


PART II

Speaking of the law of Moses, the apostle Paul stated: "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." (Galatians 3:24.)

If the law of Moses was the schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, it would seem perfectly reasonable to assume that when Christ came, there would be no further need of the schoolmaster. When we understand that the law of Moses, including its sabbaths, was a schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, we are better able to understand why the Lord permitted his prophet Hosea to declare that he would cause Israel's sabbaths to cease: "I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts."
(Hosea 2:11.)

When Hosea's prophecy was fulfilled, the way was obviously opened for the introduction of a new sabbath. The Savior understood that a change was to be made in the sabbath:

And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. (Mark 2:27-28.)

Jesus did not come to break the law but to fulfill it. Thus, in him, the Jewish sabbath was fulfilled, as was the remainder of the law of Moses, which was the "schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ." Hence, when Christ came, he became also Lord of the sabbath. He himself declared that he came to fulfill the law: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17.)

Since Jesus came to fulfill the law, why should some still want to retain it? Why should they not prefer to accept that which Jesus brought to take the place of the law, which includes the new sabbath, the first day of the week or the Lord's day (Sunday), the day upon which Jesus arose from the tomb?

John, the beloved disciple of the Lord, while banished upon the Isle of Patmos "for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ," wrote: "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet." (Revelation 1:10.)

Why should this day be called "the Lord's day," if it were not a sacred day? Remember, "the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath." Because the day on which the sabbath was observed was changed, the apostle Paul realized that the saints would be criticized, as they were for other practices to which the Jews objected: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days." (Colossians 2:16.)

This warning from the apostle Paul would have been entirely uncalled for were the saints worshiping on the Jewish sabbath, for the Jews then would have had no occasion to judge them on this matter. There is no record that the saints observed the Jewish sabbath as a day of worship following the resurrection of the Savior. The apostles did, however, meet with the Jews in their synagogues on their sabbath to teach them the gospel. (See Acts 13:13-44; 17:1-2.)

The records are quite complete, however, in indicating that the saints often met to worship on the first day of the week (Sunday), the Lord's day, or the day that Jesus arose from the tomb:

Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. (John 20:19, 26.)

And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. (Acts 20:7.)

Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. (1 Corinthians 16:1-2.)

The following scripture is particularly significant, since the day of Pentecost was the day following the Jewish sabbath:

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to peak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (Acts 2:1-4. See also Leviticus 23:15-16.)

What consistent explanation can be given for the fact that the saints met to worship on the first day of the week - Sunday, the Lord's day, the day upon which the Savior rose from the tomb - instead of on Saturday, the Jewish sabbath, except that the Lord did cause the Jewish sabbaths to cease, as the prophet Hosea declared he would? Jesus instituted a new sabbath, the Lord's day, thus becoming "Lord also of the sabbath."

Morganite--I'd appreciate your thoughts on when and why the early Christians began to worship on Sunday.

PART I



Morganite--I'd appreciate your thoughts on when and why the early Christians began to worship on Sunday. I

On the seventh day God ended his work which he had made: and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. “And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.” (Genesis 2:2-3.)

It is clear that "God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work." But from a study of the scriptures it would appear that the first commandment given through any of the prophets that the people should observe this as a day of worship was that which was given through Moses about 2500 years after the creation. In Deuteronomy we learn why God gave the commandment to the children of Israel at that time:

The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. . . .
Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee. . . .
And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
(Deuteronomy 5:2-3, 12, 15.)

From this scripture it is apparent that this was a new covenant the Lord made with Israel in Horeb; that he had not made this covenant with their fathers; that he made this covenant so that they might remember that they were servants in the land of Egypt; and that the Lord their God brought them out through a mighty hand and by a stretched-out arm, and therefore the Lord their God commanded them to keep the sabbath day.

This commandment to observe the sabbath day was incorporated in the law of Moses, as were also the sabbatic year and the forty-ninth and the fiftieth-year sabbath.

Is this just for christians to answer. I was rasied christian for 18 yrs, but when I started daing my fiancé I stopped. I disagree w/ a lot of things in the bible. But I still do believe in god and jesus. I personally don't think the world is ending soon, or that Jesus is coming back soon. If he does I guess I was wrong lol. This may be off topic, but my problem is, having no control over my life or destiny. To me, christianity take's that away. But, I hope if its all true, God tells me before its too late. I'd rather not burn in hell. But then again, why do we? Just because we choose to live our lives. I think its just a way for controlling people. Right now I'm nothing and I'm good with that until I find out I was wrong. But I don't like being told what to do or how to think. That's my problem. I just don't understand why god if he loves us, makes us do what he says and if we don't we go to hell, that's dumb. What is he, a dictatior? Good day all.

Is this just for christians to answer. I was rasied christian for 18 yrs, but when i started daing my fiance i stopped. I disagree w/ a lot of things in the bible. But i still do believe in god and jesus. I personally don't think the world is ending soon, or that Jesus is coming back soon. If he does i guess i was wrong lol. This may be off topic, but my problem is, having no control over my life or destiny. To me, christianity take's that away. But, i hope if its all true, God tells me b4 its too late. I'd rather not burn in hell. But then again, why do we? Just bc we choose to live our lives. I think its just a way for controling ppl. Right now im nothing and im good with that til i find out i was wrong. But i dont like being told what to do or how to think. That's my problem. I just dont understand why god if he loves us, makes us do what he says and if we dont we go to hell, thats dumb. What is he, a dictatior? Good day all.

I am sorry that you are lost. In my case, the opposite happened. I found myself through becoming a Christian, and I also found direction, purpose, and hope. Perhaps some day you will find the same blessings. I hope and pray that you will.

I do not believe that the Bible when properly understood reveals a God as uncaring and cold as you have been taught. God does not condemn those who do not know him properly. He works with them to bring them to him, gently and with love.

M:)RGANITE

Thanks for the discourse, Morganite...

I guess I still find it odd that modern Christians place so much significance on the Ten Commandments that they'll get in huge legal battles over where they can be displayed, but they really only take nine of them seriously. I'm sorry, but I don't find it convincing to argue that the fourth commandment, unlike all the others, is part of the Mosaic ceremonial laws that God really shouldn't have written on the tablets of stone in the first place.

I also am still skeptical that the apostles made the switch immediately after Jesus' death, but it caused hardly a ripple of comment or debate. Especially since the very question of whether Jesus' mission was even relevant outside the Jewish community was so much of an issue for the early believers. The faction who saw him as the Jewish Messiah first and foremost would have hardly been willing to accept the change without a fight.

Or so it seems to me, but I'm no scholar. Thanks again, M:) .

Thanks Morganite. You certainly cleared that up nicely. I would have never thought of the Greek text- it's Greek to me. You sound like a Biblical scholar! God Bless.

Yea, but I don't like the religion. It's too anoying. I mean God's never done crap for me, I've always done it myself. We are who we are and what we become because of what we do. Not because some invisable thing does it. BUT that's my opinion. I'm not going to listen to anyone but myself, so listening to some god is anoying. If I listened to him my life would be ruined. I'd have no life. No fiancé, no friend's no nothing. So to try to make it like I should believe just makes me turn away more. I don't believe half his words. Its all mumbo jumbo to me.

What are your thoughts about the return of Jesus Christ? Do you think it will be before, during, or after the Great Tribulation? Do you believe it will happen, or not?
Well, not to dance around to the subject, and before even a question comes up about my faith, I believe that if Jesus did/does return our society would falsely label him, or wrongfully accuse him. All too often we see homeless people in the street, and think to ourselves, "Crazy old man" when they talk to themselves. If Jesus were to show up TODAY, in America, we'd throw him in a looney bin. It's the way it works. Because if anyone questioned his abilities, I don't think that he should (or would for that matter) show them, because he believes and knows we should have faith.
All too often, questions like this spark up arguments across the world about the return, or is he here? You have voices from all sides. Ultimitly no one is denied his love. If he showed up, today, and we had him 5150'd he'd still love us. He'd forgive, and understand us. Do I think it will be before, during or after the Great Tribulation. I don't know. I can safely say, that simplely having faith, weither you go to church every Sunday, or once a month, or never. We all have a place.

You seem to be preaching way too much Alene. I said I'm not a christian. I my have doubt's. I'm offened that you keep preaching to me. I get enough of that from my gram. I don't follow christianity. I'm my own person, I do what I want. But its anoying for you to keep taking about it and making it like I worship satan. Sorry, I don't. I may be interested in wicca, but that's my business. If you ask me, christians an God are the one's whom made me question and walk away. I don't care if people disagree, I have good reasons for what I think or lack of. But I'm not going to listen to you trying to feed some crap BS in my head. I origanlly posted an answer to the question. Then you start your preaching. I'm sure your not with out sin. BEFORE preaching me the bible, know that I was a christian for 16 yrs. I read the bible and can qoute it better then you possibly. I can though back anything you dish, so be prepareed.


THOSE WITHOUT SIN, CAST THE FIRST STONE!
I know the bible too... so don't thump.

I 'm not pretending! I really am amused. This kind of contorted and selective use of the Bible is why I can't take it too seriously when I'm beat about the head and shoulders with Bible texts by people who are trying to convince me to believe like they do.

We all decide to accept some things and disregard others in whatever holy books we read. Nothing wrong with that. There's no need insist that only one holy book is legitimate, and only one interpretation of it is valid. Unless you're trying to be funny.
Or unless you're serious about going to Heaven.

Is this just for christians to answer. I was rasied christian for 18 yrs, but when i started daing my fiance i stopped. I disagree w/ a lot of things in the bible. But i still do believe in god and jesus. I personally don't think the world is ending soon, or that Jesus is coming back soon. If he does i guess i was wrong lol. This may be off topic, but my problem is, having no control over my life or destiny. To me, christianity take's that away. But, i hope if its all true, God tells me b4 its too late. I'd rather not burn in hell. But then again, why do we? Just bc we choose to live our lives. I think its just a way for controling ppl. Right now im nothing and im good with that til i find out i was wrong. But i dont like being told what to do or how to think. That's my problem. I just dont understand why god if he loves us, makes us do what he says and if we dont we go to hell, thats dumb. What is he, a dictatior? Good day all.
You are not alone in your views. Many will agree with you. I will attempt to illustrate the situation. You, I, everyone, came into this world adrift on the ocean in a lifeboat. The boat is stocked with the necessities of life, so we will survive for a time. Eventually, we will have to be rescued from that situation, because if we aren't, life supplies will be used up, and we will die. God, in loving mercy, made provision for our rescue. Now, the choice is ours. We can accept the lifeline thrown to us, or we can continue in the lifeboat, but be aware that time is running out.

Or unless you're serious about going to Heaven.
Will there be any funny people in heaven, or just those who are serious?

Will there be any funny people in heaven, or just those who are serious?
Now don't get piquéd. We are absolutely serious about our Lord Jesus Christ, but when you get a group of preachers around a table, laughter is what you hear the most of. I'm totally convinced that the Father has a wonderful sense of humor.

Now don't get piqued. We are absolutely serious about our Lord Jesus Christ, but when you get a group of preachers around a table, laughter is what you hear the most of. I'm totally convinced that the Father has a wonderful sense of humor.

Someone said, if you don't think God has a sense of humor look in the mirror. I did and I must report that He has!

Someone also asked whether God smiled. On being told that he did, He asked, "How can I make God smile." He was told, "Tell Him your plans for the future!"

What would be heavenly about heaven without laughter or pets?

M:)

Will there be any funny people in heaven, or just those who are serious?

Being serious and having a sense of humor are not mutually exclusive qualities. I am told that I have both. See you there!

:)


:D

I really want to anwer this but have two questions.

1: What is the Great Tribulation?

2: How will we know he has returned?

I really want to anwer this but have two questions.

1: What is the Great Tribulation?

2: How will we know he has returned?

2. The great tribuoation is the hard times, wars, etc, that will occur before the return of Jesus. The Tribulation is an apocalyptic figure that is common to Jewish apocalyptic, of which the Book of Revelation is styled
.

2. We will know when he has come because it will be pmade plainly obvious to all.

Excellent questions.

M:)

Ok than thanks. I really wouldn't have understood anything you were talking about if I hadn't read the bible so much. Thanks for knowledge :)


Kriscool :)

Ok than thanks. I really wouldn't have understood anything you were talking about if I hadn't read the bible so much. Thanks for knowledge :)


Kriscool :)
Your first question about how we will know when Jesus comes back is an excellent one. The Bible tells us that He will come back the same way He left, that is in plain sight of men, and when He comes back every one will see Him. Do no be mislead by those who will say that Jesus is back in some secret place.

Your first question about how we will know when Jesus comes back is an excellent one. The Bible tells us that He will come back the same way He left, that is in plain sight of men, and when He comes back every one will see Him. Do no be mislead by those who will say that Jesus is back in some secret place.

Every one will see Him... like on Larry King live? Hopefully not the View.

Funny Mag-

But no, it will be the end of "secular" entertainment!