I'm looking for general advise at this stage, so you don't need to be a pro to respond. In fact, a pro will probably be worried by my lack of knowledge and me stating I don't mind doing things without permits or following code 100%. Sorry, but the govt gets enough of my money directly from my paycheck, sometimes I don't feel like giving them even more, but mostly I don't like dealing with their B.S. Also, I do have others with much more knowledge helping me on this project, and they won't let me do anything [too] stupid.

I've got several acres of forrest land in the northwest USA. It has a newly installed 200 amp electrical service panel on one side of the property that is currently only used for a temporary cabin. I need 1 or 2 100 amp panels on the other side of the property, the first one is 500 feet from the main panel, and the next one another 300 feet beyond that. Currently, the first sub-panel that is 500 feet away is most important, as I will be building a house there soon. It could be a few years before I need the 2nd one, for an additional house, possibly never.

The power company can install a transformer on the other side of the property for about $8,000, then my 2 panels would only be about 150 feet away from the transformer, if I placed it in the middle of them. Not sure if it is worth spending that $8,000 or not. That is only for the transformer, then I still have the cost of the 2 panels and wiring them either way.

I haven't purchased any wire yet, or conduit, so really I'm open to any ideas or thoughts. I have a tractor, so digging the trench is no problem at all. As far as code, I like to follow it when possible, but safety is #1 for me. If I go the $8,000 power company way I have to pull permits and all that junk, otherwise I will not. As with most everything in my area, the house, septic, well, etc... Also all have no permits, so even if I went the permit route for the electric it would have to be a free-standing type panel (meant for an RV hook-up) that I would then have to violate anyway to get over to my house, since they don't let you use a normal house panel when the house itself isn't legal -- bastards!

What wire size and type should I use? I think the primary panel might only have lugs for 3/0 or smaller.

Is voltage drop going to be a major issue? Even if I don't run anything that needs 240 volts? The main panel is 240 volts, so even if I had 50% voltage drop, my sub-panel could get 120 volts? Or does it not work that way, and I'd really end up with 2x 60 volts?

What about line loss? I haven't seen any calculators for my needs, but I'm thinking 240 volts going 500 feet is going to end up with a lot of loss, maybe even 30%?

Shopguy,

Welcome to the forum.

It is unfortunate that you feel the way you do about getting a permit.

I suspect that you will be unable to obtain insurance on the home if the work is not completed to code and there is no permit or passed inspection to submit along with the insurance application.

Also, the "Electrical Code" is really about safety. In fact, it is the bare minimum you can do to keep the residence safe. But I digress.

500' is to far for a cable run. It would be cost prohibitive.

A transformer placed within 150 feet of the main service panel is a much better suggestion.

By definition, temporary wiring is just that. It must be removed when the construction is completed.

Considering the tone of the opening post, I am not inclined to get too deep into giving advice seeing as I am (for the most part) a by the book kind of guy. Especially when it comes to giving electrical advice to DIYers.

All I will say is it is profoundly not in your best interest to run secondary (120/240v) wiring 500 to 800 feet. Plain and simple.

My only advise would be go the power company transformer route.

Thanks for both answers guys. I'd still love to here from anyone with any outside-the-box ideas, but I do appreciate these answers as well.

As far as home insurance, that is already out the window, and so is getting ANY permits or inspections on just about anything I do on my property. Not going to get in to details, but this is probably the main reason for my tone. The county I'm in requires a well for your water supply, and you MUST have one to build a house. My land does not support a well, so I can never build a legal house on it, plain and simple... plain and simple to the idiots that make the laws anyway, but not to people like me who don't mind showering and cooking with treated/filtered rain water, and drinking bottled water (who drinks tap water anyway, LOL).

Anyway, the people that build this way probably don't spend much time on computers, so might be the wrong place to look for ideas.

Hopefully you will get a stop work order before you get to far into construction of this house. Otherwise you will probably get an order to destroy it when the county finds out about it.

The roll of $100 bills you will need for the cable to go that distance will be bigger than the cable itself.

Surely your friends that are "more knowledgeable" than you have advised against this plan.

Destroy my house because it was built without a permit? Wow, I'm glad I don't live in your area. Around here, if they tried to pull that crap, it would be one hell of a war. There must be 1,000 homes that were built without permits in this county, and none are the type to bend-over when asked. I don't think the govt, at any level, is going to start that kind of war over a bunch of houses built in the middle of no where without permits. Heck, even in the big city I'm currently trying to get out of, I just did an online permit search... out of 412 houses in my 20-year old subdivision, only 7 have had ANY permits pulled ever (yes, the database goes back 20 years, pretty cool). Yet, I can drive around and see almost every house has had major additions, a lot of it recent work also. I'm sure its different in some places, just glad I've never lived there, and I've lived in OH, TX, AZ, WA, CA, big and small.

I only posted here because I saw a lot of posts about running sub-panels to pole barns when I was searching for answers, and most of them where here. I guess those people are gone, or not reading my question. It was pretty obvious they were not getting permits either, not when you read stuff like "I need to have this done by tomorrow, for a party we are having" and "my buddy got ahead of himself and already installed the wire". Those people were running 200 to 400 feet, various amps.. I think one was over 800 feet, but maybe only 60 amps. Was hoping they could have some ideas for me, since I didn't find anything similar enough to what I'm doing to be sure yet. I know there are a lot of barns in the area where I'm building that are over 500 feet from the main house, and have power fed by that main. I guess I'll have to get up the courage to go ask them about it (except I'm 1500 miles from there right now).

It was pretty obvious they were not getting permits either, not when you read stuff like "I need to have this done by tomorrow, for a party we are having" and "my buddy got ahead of himself and already installed the wire". Those people were running 200 to 400 feet, various amps.. I think one was over 800 feet, but maybe only 60 amps. Was hoping they could have some ideas for me, since I didn't find anything similar enough to what I'm doing to be sure yet. I know there are a lot of barns in the area where I'm building that are over 500 feet from the main house, and have power fed by that main. I guess I'll have to get up the courage to go ask them about it (except I'm 1500 miles from there right now).
And this makes it right how?

If you want to live with 20%+ voltage drop be my guest. If you want to dig 800', lay pipe and pull in the wire you had to buy ($$$$$$$), be my guest.
I don't care if you live in the back flat lands of west Texas, you should at least want to do things right, regardless of permits.
It is quite obvious you are an anarchist type that will rebel against "the man" any chance you get, but again, this should not preclude you from doing an electrical job correctly and safely.


Just run the biggest wire the panel lugs will handle and deal with the consequences later. :cool:
If you only use a few amps at a time you'll be fine.

The issue of permits or not is a regional issue. In rural areas permits rules are more relaxed, if enforced at all. Maine here, and I am a transplant from Connecticut, I was taken back once I got here how relaxed it was, in CT I needed a permit to do anything.

There is no "outside the box" ideas to deliver 100 amps at 120/240 volts 500 feet.

We all are subjected to the laws of physics.

Here is a voltage drop calculator that can be used with confidence to help size the wire for the load going that distance:

Voltage Drop Calculator (http://www.southwire.com/support/voltage-drop-calculator.htm)

Thanks, side commentary aside, I got the answers I wanted and due to voltage drop and line loss I've already contacted the power company to get that route started. I guess I would have been more willing to accept the fact that it "will not work" sooner if I knew it was coming from a physics standpoint related to HUGE voltage drop and line loss, and not just because it wasn't to code/standards that might be overly strict for certain areas.