How would society be affected if there were no types of religion in America?

This is a big topic. Notice your other questions are homework - is this?

It would be a worse place than it already is. A place with no ethics.

A lack of religion wouldn't prevent ethics and morals from existing.

It just is not possible, there are always a religion of some sort in any and every society. In fact it is religion that often sets up most of the social structure. Be it worship of a animal, worship of the sun and moon.

But without religion, something or some idea would take over as the religion.

Many rulers have used religion and the control of it, to control society.

So we see that communism was a religion or a replacement of it and materialism is replacing religion.

A lack of religion wouldn't prevent ethics and morals from existing.


This is correct. Religion is not a prerequisite for an ethical theory.

Tut

This is correct. Religion is not a prerequisite for an ethical theory.

Tut

What WOULD be a prerequisite?

What WOULD be a prerequisite?
A philosophy, a set of cultural norms, to name two.

A philosophy, a set of cultural norms, to name two.

Is your name TUT317? JUST KIDDING, JUST KIDDING.

Do you think a philosophy would have the force of religion? And religion, of course, IS a cultural norm.

And religion, of course, IS a cultural norm.
There are cultural (e.g. familial) norms apart from religion.

There are cultural (e.g., familial) norms apart from religion.

I agree, but do any of the non-religious cultural norms have the power and force of religion?

There are cultural (e.g., familial) norms apart from religion.

I agree, but do any of the non-religious cultural norms have the power and force of religion?
Well, China might be a good example. Japan too.

Well, China might be a good example. Japan too.

Both China and Japan are deeply rooted culturally in religion. The present Chinese ruling class (communism) is officially "anti-religion", but it allows religious observances, and has even resurrected Confucius in the last few decades - a social philosopher, you may say, but fundamentally based in the spirituality of ancestor worship.

Japan has always been a deeply religious society - whether Shintoism, Buddhism, or even Christianity.

Most societies today are secular, but their morality derives from religion, often ancient, but still powerful. The US and Europe remain "morally informed" by their Judeo-Christian past, even though "Church" is no longer identified with "State".

What WOULD be a prerequisite?

Hi Athos,

The only requirement for a ethics is that you have a problem and you are prepared to think about it. It would be a mistake to think that ethics is just an 'academic' study although academics are are bit more systematic when it comes to examining everyday problems. By this I mean they tend to think of the problem in terms of its wider implications for society.

For example, a hedonist thinks the only thing worth pursuing is pleasure and that he/she ought to pursue as much pleasure as possible. You don't have to be a philosopher to be a hedonist. Little children tend to be hedonistic. Hedonism is an ethical theory but what makes it such is that philosophers tend to think about the wider implications of hedonism, i.e other people and society.

Tut

Both China and Japan are deeply rooted culturally in religion. The present Chinese ruling class (communism) is officially "anti-religion", but it allows religious observances, and has even resurrected Confucius in the last few decades - a social philosopher, you may say, but fundamentally based in the spirituality of ancestor worship.

Japan has always been a deeply religious society - whether Shintoism, Buddhism, or even Christianity.




Hi again Athos,

I think what you are saying is that these societies don't distinguish religion from politics and ethics- this is pretty true. It still may well be the case today.

Western society also had a history of this 'lack of distinction'. If we look at the Greek philosophers we will see that epistemology ( theory of knowledge) was just that. A singular theory of knowledge that explained politics, ethics, religion and society. All could be accounted for under one theory.

Today, we have a huge number of different theories to explain religion, ethics and politics. I probably should add that MOST societies do so. Some theocratic societies still see the importance of no separation of different aspects of life.




Most societies today are secular, but their morality derives from religion, often ancient, but still powerful. The US and Europe remain "morally informed" by their Judeo-Christian past, even though "Church" is no longer identified with "State".


Which brings me to the next point.

I would say that most societies are secular, but some of their morality is derived from their Christian past but not all of it.

Consider the hedonist example. Out of hedonism grew a theory know as utilitarianism. No room to go into details, but you can Google it if your like. Basically, utilitarianism means that an action is considered right if it produces the greatest happiness of the greatest number. An action is considered wrong if it produces the opposite.

This is an entirely secular theory that plays an important role in politics and ethics in modern society. Such theories highlight the separation of church and state. This is important because no separation between church and state can give rise to a theocracy. Such a state is of course totalitarian.

Tut

Hi Athos,

The only requirement for a ethics is that you have a problem and you are prepared to think about it. It would be a mistake to think that ethics is just an 'academic' study although academics are are bit more systematic when it comes to examining everyday problems. By this I mean tend to think of the problem in terms of its wider implications for society.

For example, a hedonist thinks the only thing worth pursuing is pleasure and that he/she ought to pursue as much pleasure as possible. You don't have to be a philosopher to be a hedonist. Little children tend to be hedonistic. Hedonism is an ethical theory but what makes it such is that philosophers tend to think about the wider implications of hedonism, i.e other people and society.

Tut

Thanks, Tut. But I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Thanks, Tut. But I have no idea what you're trying to say.


Hi Athos,

If I am a hedonist then I think that the only thing worth while in my life is to seek pleasure. Pleasure seeking is all that I ever want to do. This is an ethical theory. Not a very good one, but it is an ethical theory nonetheless.

If one the other hand, I am both a hedonist and a philosopher then I am still of the opinion that self gratification is the be all and end all. However, as a philosopher I would probably tend to wonder what impact my hedonistic behaviour has on other people. I might also start to wonder what would happen if everyone in society had the same attitude as myself.

As a philosopher I might also think about these things and write them down in the form of a theory.

That's pretty much all I was saying in the first bit.


Tut

Hi Athos,

If I am a hedonist then I think that the only thing worth while in my life is to seek pleasure. Pleasure seeking is all that I ever want to do. This is an ethical theory. Not a very good one, but it is an ethical theory nonetheless.

If one the other hand, I am both a hedonist and a philosopher then I am still of the opinion that self gratification is the be all and end all. However, as a philosopher I would probably tend to wonder what impact my hedonistic behaviour has on other people. I might also start to wonder what would happen if everyone in society had the same attitude as myself.

As a philosopher I might also think about these things and write them down in the form of a theory.

That's pretty much all I was saying in the first bit.


Tut

Hi, Tut,

If you're saying that the need for morality (ethics) originates in the human condition, I agree.

Hi, Tut,

If you're saying that the need for morality (ethics) originates in the human condition, I agree.


Hi Athos,

That's what I am wanting to say.

Tut

Hi Athos,

That's what I am wanting to say.

Tut

Ok, but the question is how does religion affect society in America. I think religion has a huge effect on society - America and elsewhere - even in secular societies.

I don't necessarily mean church attendance, but rather how eons of religious thought has contributed to how societies come to view themselves and their neighbors (individual and national).

Ok, but the question is how does religion affect society in America. I think religion has a huge effect on society - America and elsewhere - even in secular societies.



Hi Athos,


In the context of our societies I think most people would say we are a Christian society and follow a Christian ethic. I also think the effect of this is a society that regards political, social, religious and legal institutions as reflecting these Christian values.

This is both true and not true at the same time. Sounds a bit contradictory but I will explain.

For the sake of this argument I am only considering modern society. I am also going to divide ethics into two camps. Naturalism and non-naturalism. This just means we can divide ethics into, (a) Ethics imposed from an outside agency. The best example of this is God's commands and his directives to us.

(b) Ethics being imposed through human experience. The hedonistic approach is a good example of this. Such a theory is derived from human nature and experience.Now we have two competing ethical theories in society coming from different directions. Which theory or theories do we use today?

There are certain things that are wrong and the majority of people would agree that stealing is wrong and murder is wrong. These laws are reflected in God's commandments to us. They are also reflected in secular laws. But, we live in a complex society and sometimes it becomes impossible to use divine commands to determine the moral worth of certain issues.

For example, in Australia the government is going to impose a carbon tax. This makes a majority of Australians very unhappy. They believe such a tax will result in job losses and large increases in prices for just about everything. Low wage earners are particularly worried.

The majority of people see this tax as being politically, socially and economically bad for Australia. There is also an argument that says the tax is morally corrupt. The reason being is that this tax is creating fear and anxiety in a large number of people.

If we regard the tax as a moral issue then no amount of ethics from an outside agency is going to settle the issue. In other words, there is nothing in religious texts that can help us here. What is required to solve the problem is to look at human nature and experience. This is where hedonism comes in.

We can argue that the tax is morally wrong because it is not creating happiness for the majority of the population. An action is right if it creates the greatest happiness of the greatest number. An action is wrong is it produces the opposite. And clearly this tax is creating the opposite of happiness for a majority.

To answer the original question I would say that in our modern society the Christian ethic is not as influential as some people think when it comes to non-religious institutions. Having said that I still think it has an important role to play in society as a whole. Some people may disagree with that.

Tut

We can argue that the tax is morally wrong because it is not creating happiness for the majority of the population. An action is right if it creates the greatest happiness of the greatest number. An action is wrong is it produces the opposite. And clearly this tax is creating the opposite of happiness for a majority.

To answer the original question I would say that in our modern society the Christian ethic is not as influential as some people think when it comes to non-religious institutions. Having said that I still think it has an important role to play in society as a whole. Some people may disagree with that.

Tut

Tut

I think it a misnomer to describe our society as a Christian society. It has Christian roots but in recent times many decisions have been taken that have moved our society far from Christian values.

Your discussion of the carbon tax from a moral perspective is interesting but from a Christian perspective irrelevant. From a Christian perspective governments are appointed by God and tax is part of government activity. Whether the citizens have the correct perspective can only be judged in time through outcomes. However one more christian perspective God tells us to fear not. Hardly the perspective of the population outlined by yourself.

Australia is a secular society. It makes no laws regarding the conduct of religion but certain laws impinge on religious activities. In fact in day to day life for most Australians religion has no bearing on outcomes.

Tut

I think it a misnomer to describe our society as a Christian society. It has Christian roots but in recent times many decisions have been taken that have moved our society far from Christian values.

Your discussion of the carbon tax from a moral perspective is interesting but from a Christian perspective irrelevant. From a Christian perspective governments are appointed by God and tax is part of government activity. Whether the citizens have the correct perspective can only be judged in time through outcomes. However one more christian perspective God tells us to fear not. Hardly the perspective of the population outlined by yourself.

Australia is a secular society. It makes no laws regarding the conduct of religion but certain laws impinge on religious activities. In fact in day to day life for most Australians religion has no bearing on outcomes.


Hi clete,


I highlighted certain elements of the argument to show the issues.

But, yes were very much secular.


Tut

All one has to do is look at the news lately and see exactly how a lack of morals has effected this country. How many young children have gone missing in the past two months? How many killings for various reasons? It all comes back to a lack of moral standards as set forth in the Bible and Christian teaching.

All one has to do is look at the news lately and see exactly how a lack of morals has effected this country. How many young children have gone missing in the past two months? How many killings for various reasons? It all comes back to a lack of moral standards as set forth in the Bible and Christian teaching.

Hi Don,

Yes, you have highlighted another important distinction. If anyone is interested we can have a little look at it.

When you say, "All one has to do is look at the news lately and see exactly how a lack of morals has effected this country" you are saying there is a lack of virtue ethics in this country at the moment. I wouldn't disagree with that.

There is a distinction between modern and classical ethical theories in this regard. Virtue ethics highlights the importance of a person following a certain set of rules. The Ten Commandments is an obvious example. A person is virtuous if they follow certain commands. For example, a person who does not steal is virtuous in respect to the moral law and this is regardless of the CONSEQUENCES of them following that law.

With the context of modern society is not difficult to come up with some type of scenario whereby following that particular rule may have an adverse consequence. This is why modern ethical theories tend to focus on the consequences of our actions.

My examples in previous posts (hedonism leading into utilitarianism) highlights the importance of consequences. In other words, what are the wider implications of my actions for other people and society? On this basis we don't actually talk about actions being,'good or bad' in the classical sense; we talk about actions being 'right or wrong' depending on the outcome


Tut.

Well, what I was trying to allude to is the total lack of morals in society today. If our society were still following the Christian beliefs and the teachings of Jesus Christ things like rape murder, robbery would be practically non existent. Simply because those things do not follow good Christian teachings. No matter what religious organization you belong to there is a set of moral standards. This country because of liberal thinking In my opinion has run away from those standards in an attempt to "find it self". This can be traced back again In my opinion to the "me" generation and the free thinking society it created. Free love, free drugs, let the government support mentality has gotten us into big trouble.

Well, what I was trying to allude to is the total lack of morals in society today.


Hi Don,

I think you are saying that there is a lack of a particular type of ethic. There are many different types of ethical theories.




If our society were still following the Christian beliefs and the teachings of Jesus Christ things like rape murder, robbery would be practically non existent. Simply because those things do not follow good Christian teachings.




Could be less, but there will always be plenty of people who are prepared to go against any sort of moral commandments.





No matter what religious organization you belong to there is a set of moral standards. This country because of liberal thinking IMHO has run away from those standards in an attempt to "find it self". This can be traced back again IMHO to the "me" generation and the free thinking society it created. Free love, free drugs, let the government support mentality has gotten us into big trouble.


Probably true but we run a big risk when we start to think that politicians should be enforcing a particular moral code on the population.

Tut

If our society were still following the Christian beliefs and the teachings of Jesus Christ
Yup, the current Republican mentality is that we ignore Jesus' teachings of sharing with each other and caring for the poor and ministering to the least among us.

Well, what I was trying to allude to is the total lack of morals in society today. If our society were still following the Christian beliefs and the teachings of Jesus Christ things like rape murder, robbery would be practically non existent. Simply because those things do not follow good Christian teachings. No matter what religious organization you belong to there is a set of moral standards. This country because of liberal thinking IMHO has run away from those standards in an attempt to "find it self". This can be traced back again IMHO to the "me" generation and the free thinking society it created. Free love, free drugs, let the government support mentality has gotten us into big trouble.

I agree with you Don, if our society were truly a Christian society it would be transformed and there would be a lower incidence of crime, however there is always a non-believing element, some of whom operate solely on self gratification. You cannot blame a generation for the ills of society, where did those people get those ideas from?