For anyone who cares to discuss the paranormal in a general sense this is the place.

If you have specific issues go to the Ask Your Question box.

Just a reminder that this is the new discussion thread

What exactly are you trying to discuss? Experiences or methods or tools or theory ?

Mainly it is a place to do the back and forth bantering that ends up hijacking threads.

A spot to keep the methodology debates that seem to break
Out so often.

And like the girl that posted advice that included painting your walls red because ghosts hate it.
I ask her to explain that here instead of in the thread we were in.

What exactly are you trying to discuss? Experiences or methods or tools or theory ?

All of the above and anything else anybody wants to get into or off their chest.

Mainly it is a place to do the back and forth bantering that ends up hijacking threads.

A spot to keep the methodology debates that seem to break
out so often.

And like the girl that posted advice that included painting your walls red because ghosts hate it.
I ask her to explain that here instead of in the thread we were in.

Here is the problem. Unless your going to be moving posts off the thread they came from to here then its no longer relevant without referencing it anyway. Sometimes its not hijacking to have discussions and the OP gets to watch the process. It just has to be kept civil.

I'm not familiar with the thread protocol here at AMHD. But I'd like to continue with the discussion about the EXORCIST as a model for other exorcisms.
DISCLAIMER Reminder: I do NOT BELIEVE in spirits of any kind. :(

It's pretty easy to find info debunking the exorcism claimed to have been performed which is at the center of the EXORCIST movie. Try the web site here:
Part I - The Haunted Boy: the Inspiration for the Exorcist (http://www.strangemag.com/exorcistpage1.html)
Lots of data, read it all to get the whole truth... but for quicker results just skim over the data on pages 1-4, and focus on page 5 - the conclusions. The witnesses have terrible inconsistencies - wrong address - wrong name - wrong age - wrong year for the event in question. The priest confessed to hearing only "Latin" spoken by the boy, and felt it was "mimic" rather than original... and so on. Read it. For my money, and in order to sway my opinion, my thinking, my 'beliefs' there must be way better evidence than this.

I'm not familiar with the thread protocol here at AMHD. But I'd like to continue with the discussion about the EXORCIST as a model for other exorcisms.
DISCLAIMER Reminder: I do NOT BELIEVE in spirits of any kind. :(

It's pretty easy to find info debunking the exorcism claimed to have been performed which is at the center of the EXORCIST movie. Try the web site here:
Part I - The Haunted Boy: the Inspiration for the Exorcist (http://www.strangemag.com/exorcistpage1.html)
Lots of data, read it all to get the whole truth ... but for quicker results just skim over the data on pages 1-4, and focus on page 5 - the conclusions. The witnesses have terrible inconsistencies - wrong address - wrong name - wrong age - wrong year for the event in question. The priest confessed to hearing only "Latin" spoken by the boy, and felt it was "mimic" rather than original....and so on. Read it. For my money, and in order to sway my opinion, my thinking, my 'beliefs' there must be way better evidence than this.



There is most likely much better evidence that will never see the light of day. Since it is a Catholic experience it would have been controlled and evidence taken back to the vatican for further examination. That is most likely why no diary exists. You have to understand the workings before you can comment on the system. It seems rather obvious that the writer of that article wasn't Catholic and wasn't aware of how the system works.

That's nuts! We're trying to get to the bottom of the case: "does this exorcism help prove that spirits exist?" -- Your argument seems to be: "The church has the evidence, so just believe it." I'm just a citizen here with an open mind - put out some real evidence so it can be evaluated. No evidence = no validity to the claim.

That's nuts! We're trying to get to the bottom of the case: "does this exorcism help prove that spirits exist?" -- Your argument seems to be: "The church has the evidence, so just believe it." I'm just a citizen here with an open mind - put out some real evidence so it can be evaluated. No evidence = no validity to the claim.

Even with the evidence how are you going to tell? There is no way to tell. If a spirit moves something how do you know it is a spirit doing it with all the evidence in the world? All you can do is document and believe what you believe. Ask any cryptozoologist about how far you have to go to prove it to the world. In reality you have to kill the very thing you seek or it doesn't count. Think about that vs trying to prove a demensional being.

Don't be paranoid... anyone (me) asking for proof of any phenomena just want's real proof. That underlies my comment earlier about modern pharmacology: you need blind (actually large double blind) studies to really prove that a drug is effective and not harmful. That costs lots of money, but is required in order to sell the public a new drug. It's no different with looking for cryptids or spirits - I (the sceptic community) just want to see some solid proof, not just anecdote. And in addition the phenomena has to be reproducible - one sighting of big foot is not proof, nor is one short, grainy, indistinct strip of film.
I choose the pharmacal example carefully since it, like the hunt for spirits or cryptozoology, has been plagued over the centuries with hoaxes and frauds.
====
Wikipedia: Cryptozoology is not a recognized branch of zoology or a discipline of science.[1] It is an example of pseudoscience because it relies heavily upon anecdotal evidence, stories and alleged sightings.
Find more by following the reference links there.

Don't be paranoid ... anyone (me) asking for proof of any phenomena just want's real proof. That underlies my comment earlier about modern pharmacology: you need blind (actually large double blind) studies to really prove that a drug is effective and not harmful. That costs lots of money, but is required in order to sell the public a new drug. It's no different with looking for cryptids or spirits - I (the sceptic community) just want to see some solid proof, not just anecdote. And in addition the phenomena has to be reproducible - one sighting of big foot is not proof, nor is one short, grainy, indistinct strip of film.
I choose the pharmacal example carefully since it, like the hunt for spirits or cryptozoology, has been plagued over the centuries with hoaxes and frauds.
====
Wikipedia: Cryptozoology is not a recognized branch of zoology or a discipline of science.[1] It is an example of pseudoscience because it relies heavily upon anecdotal evidence, stories and alleged sightings.
Find more by following the reference links there.


Do you accept EVP's as being real? If so then why and if not then why not ?

NO - I do not accept EVP's as having been recorded from disincarnate individuals. Again - the evidence for such a claim is scant, inconclusive, and completely non-repeatable. Rather than write a dozen dense paragraphs here, I strongly suggest 10 minutes back on Wikipedia: search "Electronic voice phenomenon" -- see section 2.1 Explanations, and read carefully section 2.1.1 on Psychological explanations.
<<Auditory pareidolia is a situation created when the brain incorrectly interprets random patterns as being familiar patterns.[32]>>
In normal life this is not an oft evident phenomenon. But the same pattern making brain circuits we have work on VISUAL random info... and find patterns that are not there. This visual phenomenon is something we've all done for fun by looking at puffy cloud formations, and seeing dragons or puppies, etc. There is a part of the brain (the fusiform gyrus) that is specifically charged with the function of perceiving and identifying faces. This hard wired region works with the pattern making regions (temporal lobe), but they often 'over work' resulting in the process of seeing faces where there are none. Que the face on the surface of Mars, which is actually just a series of random bumps and shadows - but it DOES look like a face, and it triggers those parts of our brain to convince us that there is a face there (same with clouds).
Apply this 'optical allusion' to sound, and you get an 'auditory illusion'. As I've said before: using human perception is dangerous - errors creep in all the time.
Also: what would be the mechanism for a spirit being to put a sound onto a tape recorder? By definition spirits can NOT move molecules in our universe, right? (if they could then we'd be able to detect them will all sorts of equipment). So they can NOT make sounds by vibrating air. Can they imprint the sounds directly on the magnetic material on the tape? They'd have to be 'magnetic' to do that, and again: easily detectable. Your claim is that EVP is from spirits, so please step up and offer a mechanism that might make it happen. Your claim = burden of proof is on you. To my thinking there is none.

NO - I do not accept EVP's as having been recorded from disincarnate individuals. Again - the evidence for such a claim is scant, inconclusive, and completely non-repeatable. Rather than write a dozen dense paragraphs here, I strongly suggest 10 minutes back on Wikipedia: search "Electronic voice phenomenon" -- see section 2.1 Explanations, and read carefully section 2.1.1 on Psychological explanations.
<<Auditory pareidolia is a situation created when the brain incorrectly interprets random patterns as being familiar patterns.[32]>>
In normal life this is not an oft evident phenomenon. But the same pattern making brain circuits we have work on VISUAL random info...and find patterns that are not there. This visual phenomenon is something we've all done for fun by looking at puffy cloud formations, and seeing dragons or puppies, etc. There is a part of the brain (the fusiform gyrus) that is specifically charged with the function of perceiving and identifying faces. This hard wired region works with the pattern making regions (temporal lobe), but they often 'over work' resulting in the process of seeing faces where there are none. Que the face on the surface of Mars, which is actually just a series of random bumps and shadows - but it DOES look like a face, and it triggers those parts of our brain to convince us that there is a face there (same with clouds).
Apply this 'optical allusion' to sound, and you get an 'auditory illusion'. As I've said before: using human perception is dangerous - errors creep in all the time.
Also: what would be the mechanism for a spirit being to put a sound onto a tape recorder? By definition spirits can NOT move molecules in our universe, right? (if they could then we'd be able to detect them will all sorts of equipment). So they can NOT make sounds by vibrating air. Can they imprint the sounds directly on the magnetic material on the tape? They'd have to be 'magnetic' to do that, and again: easily detectable. Your claim is that EVP is from spirits, so please step up and offer a mechanism that might make it happen. Your claim = burden of proof is on you. To my thinking there is none.

So far in the field there has been detection and fluctuations in the magnetic and electrical fields that have been associated with the phenomena. In accordance with that it would be possible to cause a localized spike to occur that could cause a "sound" to be recorded. Also your claim of not affecting physical matter seems perplexing as it has been shown that objects have moved without human aid or any other visible source. You seem to be limiting the scope of your proof to only that which you could hold in your hand rather then basing it on any theory. It has been proven by math that other demensions exist. It is also being proven that time itself may be a thread separated only in the most minute way. Again from what your saying there seems to be the assumption that the sound pre-existed on the recording device. Otherwise having no source how do you account for it as the sound itself can be measured with machines.

Responding to your last post point by point:
1> I do not accept the claimed connection between sightings and magnetic fluctuations. No repeatable evidence for this.
2> Even if you accepted that a spirit had a magnetic aura, this does not equate to getting vibrations into the tape that then can 'play' like a voice! Don't underestimate the complexity of an ordinary sound recording of a human voice! Pitch range from 40 Hz to 10,000 Hz, harmonics, overtones, tambur, etc. How does a ghost do that?
3> Spirits affecting matter: there is absolutely NO evidence for a single psychokinetic event. See JREF on Wikipedia: this prize has yet to be won. Psychokinesis is not possible due to the requirement to maintain the laws of conservation of mass/energy. There is not enough energy within brain waves to move the mass of a pencil across a table. You have to get the physics right! Spirits: do you propose a different source of energy? OK... your claim so step up and prove it!
4> "Hold in your hand...theory" -- Careful how you use the word "THEORY"... evolution is a theory. Genesis is a theory. One has evidence, one does not. If you use theories in a proof then the theories require proof. A chain of logic is only as strong as its weakest [unproven] link.
What others say to me is, "You believe only what you can see yourself." This is partly true. But I do understand radio waves, magnetism, sound waves, atomic theory, yet no one has 'seen' any of these. Tests are constructed which prove [or disprove] theories. The classic example: Rutheford and the theory of atomic nuclei [look it up].
5> "proven that other dimensions exist" -- not so fast! There is no such proof. They may exist. They are required to be 11 physical dimensions in order to support current string theory... but the theory is not proven yet. If other dimensions exist they are 'out of bounds' for us... we can't go there, and they can't come here.
6> TIME: a very complex subject... let's leave that out of this discussion, K?
7> I did NOT claim that the sound was on the recording before the EVP event. That's possible though: erasing audio magnetic tape is not a total erasure. Also: the possibility of hoaxing is ever present. The TV shows would not attract viewers if they had no results, so they often 'doctor' things [only sometimes do they get caught at it]. Hey... scientists sometimes cheat the results too - in order to be SURE of anything it has to be repeatable.
7> "how do you account for sound on tape that machines detect?" -- Random sounds are produced the same way that 'snow' shows up on the TV when there is no cable signal: Cosmic Rays left over from the big bang. These are very close to perfectly random, and affect recorded media of nearly all kinds. (not CD or CD ROM I think). Another example of random data input: get to a really silent room - totally silent - and listen. You hear a soft hiss - that's the sound of air molecules randomly bouncing off your ear drum. If you listen long enough you'll hear "I am the walrus" - no, really, try it!

Im very familiar with the amazing Randy. And he is excellent at his craft. But what he is looking for is not paranormal proof. He was contesting psychic abilities. Those that claim to speak to the dead and those that can manipulate objects. All of this came from his love of Harry Houdini.

But by way of process it seems the only way your going to believe anything is if it appears to you in person. If that is the case then why not form a paranormal group and do your own investigations? After all no one could bring you proof as you can't grasp the concept that it may exist and everything brought to you would be dismissed as fraud.

So I suggest you seek the personal experience and then explain it to yourself.

Not at all necessary. I've read Rutheford's experiment:
Wikipedia:
<< Discovery of the nucleus
Main article: Rutherford model
The gold foil experiment
Top: Expected results: alpha particles passing through the plum pudding model of the atom with negligible deflection.
Bottom: Observed results: a small portion of the particles were deflected by the concentrated positive charge of the nucleus.
Thomson's plum pudding model was disproved in 1909 by one of his former students, Ernest Rutherford, who discovered that most of the mass and positive charge of an atom is concentrated in a very small fraction of its volume, which he assumed to be at the very center.

In the gold foil experiment, Hans Geiger and Ernest Marsden (colleagues of Rutherford working at his behest) shot alpha particles at a thin sheet of gold, measuring their deflection with a fluorescent screen.[11] Given the very small mass of the electrons, the high momentum of the alpha particles and the unconcentrated distribution of positive charge of the plum pudding model, the experimenters expected all the alpha particles to pass through the gold sheet without significant deflection. To their astonishment, a small fraction of the alpha particles experienced heavy deflection.

This led Rutherford to propose a planetary model in which a cloud of electrons surrounded a small, compact nucleus of positive charge. Only such a concentration of charge could produce the electric field strong enough to cause the heavy deflection.[12] >>

I've not conducted this experiment myself, but I've seen many papers referring to the validity of this result - it's been repeated many times in many different labs. It's FACT now... no wiggle room of any kind.
Paranormal results have no such track record on any event = not even one. Therefore I reject the premise: there is no spiritual plane. Until there is proof no one should spend their time and energy on this slice of life... that's why I suggested, "GET REAL'' at the beginning of this thread.

Therefore I reject the premise: there is no spiritual plane. Until there is proof no one should spend their time and energy on this slice of life....that's why I suggested, "GET REAL'' at the beginning of this thread.

This is a contradiction of how science works. It starts with and idea until a theory can be formed and then proof by repitition. But if no one wastes their time chasing the brass ring then there can never be proof to arise from the current theory.

Concepts and change has occurred all through time. Im sure we are beyond a flat earth. And so as we move forward new ways to detect whatever is going on will lead the way. Right now it remains as unknown. But those of us with an interest in it do feel that some day ground will be broken even for the skeptics.

I've said it several times: the burden of proof lies with those making the claims... YOU.

The fundamental question: What would you prefer: to be comfortable with your beliefs, or to be correct with what you know? I prefer the latter.

I've said it several times: the burden of proof lies with those making the claims.....YOU.

The fundamental question: What would you prefer: to be comfortable with your beliefs, or to be correct with what you know? I prefer the latter.

Lets break that down.

Correct with what you know = follower

Comfortable in your beliefs = leader

I prefer being a leader then follower.

I've said it several times: the burden of proof lies with those making the claims.....YOU.

The fundamental question: What would you prefer: to be comfortable with your beliefs, or to be correct with what you know? I prefer the latter.

Everyone that posts on this site does so for their own reasons. With their own beliefs ,experiences , education, philosophies and personalities determining how they answer the particular question they are answering.

Your "mini bio" states that you "Find false claims and expose them."

I think exposing false claims is a worthwhile and beneficial undertaking and I applaud your effort but feel that objectivity is essential in fact finding.



You are obviously well read and have spent some time looking into the paranormal and present some excellent information and arguments based on what conclusions you have drawn in regard to what you have assimilated on the subject.

And the arguments and information being presented to you are drawn from years of study and experiences some of us have had in our lives.

You stated your experience you thought paranormal at first was shown to be psychologically generated as many are.

I have yet to find any explanation for my experiences . What I experienced , according to reason and logic , is impossible. But it happened and I am still trying to find answers.

You state the burden of proof is with those making the claims , which is true if you are making any claims which I am not (other than there have been many cases studied and documented .)

I believe no one here is promoting or encouraging anyone to believe in the paranormal. Rather we are trying to help people understand what is going on in their lives and to look into all aspects of what could be the cause realizing that only a small percentage will not have an explanation and we choose to call these paranormal .

As with all sciences and studies there are portions that are taken on faith because no concrete evidence can be found that fits the definition of proof. Except mathematics , the only exact science.

And in regards to what we know about the universe around us , the discovery of dark matter is a great example.
The substance that makes up 2/3 of all the matter in the universe we only know is there because of the effects it has on the matter we can detect.

The mathematics prove if it wasn't there the galaxies would not have enough gravity to hold the stars in the positions they are in.
It is also the explanation of why the galaxies are moving away from each other at still accelerating velocities which now is a known fact.
Yet we still have no way of directly detecting dark matter or dark energy whose existence is beyond contestation .

The paranormal , when compared to discoveries like that, seems simple and mundane and only waiting for someone to find the methods to prove or explain what is happening around us everyday in every corner of the world that is classified as paranormal.

I cannot prove my experiences to anyone. Nor do I care to.

I am only looking for answers and trying to help others do the same.

For now there is no black and white or right or wrong in this area. It is a matter of what you choose to believe from what you know and have experienced realizing many of the answers we have yet to discover.

In that light I choose to seek answers in lieu of demanding proof I know as yet does not exist to the satisfaction of scientific definitions.

Not meeting those definitions does not make it any less real to those of us who have experienced paranormal events.

As for documentation , the site you presented I found to be self serving . The author was gathering "facts" 40 to 50 years after the fact and would not name his sources and gave heresay as proof.

This case was also made into a movie. "The Entity" and was studied by an entire team of investigators .

It is all first hand and much more recent and the people were directly involved and alive to confirm it today.
http://http://www.ghosttheory.com/2008/09/21/the-entity-haunting-the-true-story-of-doris-bither

This is the site of the lead investigator Dr. Barry Taff
http://http://barrytaff.net/author/dr-barry-taff/

And I am comfortable that my beliefs are correct.

I experienced all the proof I need.

And these are the types of things that proving the paranormal boil down to. The one that is a skeptic or investigator may obtain the most compelling evidence and will always, ALWAYS come against somebody that simply does not believe because THEY were not there to experience it. And then there are those like Martini and myself who have had those demonic experiences firsthand, and believe me when I say I need to further proof for or against the existence of demons because I have seen them and felt them.

No matter what these "investigators" claim, the paranormal cannot be proven or measured using the scientific methods. No matter what data you collect, in the end it cannot be tested over and over. We are dealing with intelligent entities that can manifest in just about anyway a person can imagine. They can appear when they want to and to whom they want to. If two people are in a room, they can manifest so that only one of those people can see or hear or feel them. You can now see why people have such a hard time PROVING their existence, unless of course it is to people who have already experienced them.

I majored in biology in college... science has a beautiful place in our world and beliefs as it explains why the world is the way it is and how if functions. But spirits do not operate by our physical laws and really don't exist in our plane. It is the one subject I am certain we will never fully understand or comprehend to its fullness.