So. I wish to have this discussion. And I feel this is the best place/site to do it as we have many different faiths and views here.

Many of you already know. I struggle with my 'religion'. Do not take that to mean I struggle with my FAITH. I love God with all my heart. I treasure him and there is no one I love more. And the same goes for Jesus Christ, sent by God, our wonderful man who taught us so much of God.
However, I grew up Christian, spent a great deal of adulthood (or what adult hood I have had so far lol) in a catholic church. And recently over the last 2 years, have learned a great deal about Islam and in fact even have gone to see the local Imam several times, and love Islam very much. I still struggle with just where I belong, (what church/denomination/religion/ect)
But I never struggle with my faith and love for God and Christ.


Now, my discussion...
I do not, nor have I ever even as a child, believed that Christ was GOD. He was sent BY God, born of a virgin because GOD wanted it so. But Christ is NOT God. He is his SON.
(in fact it is this belief that led me to Islam in the first place)
But I am not Jehovah witness nor Mormon. They also believe that Jesus is not god, but both these religions believe things that I do not. (do you see how frustrating this is for me lol. Not ONE religion fits me perfectly. Maybe I should make a new one! )

I am not here to push this belief on anyone. I am here to get other views. I want to know what others think of my logic behind this. And see how others feel about it. And find out if anyone else feels the same way.

The reasons I believe this are... (in order of importance)

First, the most important, it goes against the commandments. The FIRST commandment. You shall not have any other Gods before me. GOD IS THE ONLY GOD. NO one else.

Second, If Jesus is God, why did God say he sent Jesus to us? Why did he not say 'I came to you in human form to guide you and teach you'
Not once did God say 'I came as human to you' And Jesus always said 'i was sent by my father'

Next, Jesus never said he was God. I know people claim this is not true, because of the first verse in John, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
So... I find it hard to believe that Jesus is now a word. Or The word. Or several words. Gods words, is just that. His words. He spoke them. And they came to be. We are ALL his word. He spoke the word and brought light. Spoke the word and brought Life. We are ALL his words. Not JUST Christ.

Next. Jesus did NOT have Godly Powers. Nor was he infallible. In fact, Jesus was far from perfect. Sinless does not equal perfect and Godly. Jesus didn't know that a fig tree didn't have any fruit because it was not the season for it. He didn't know who touched him in one of his healings. Most important, Jesus did not/does not know when the last day will be. GOD knows EVERYTHING. Jesus did not. (this is NOT a knock at him)

Jesus is not perfect in the fact that he must eat. He must sleep. He must use the bathroom. He must wash. Ect. God does not need to do these things.

Jesus was tempted by the devil. I don't believe the Devil would tempt GOD.





I think I have lost my train of thought here. Lol. So lets leave it at this. And if anything else comes to mind, ill just post about it :)

Remember, keep it friendly and respectful of ALL who choose to answer :)

I believe God is one Being but is also three Persons -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The only way my mind can begin to wrap itself around that is by thinking that I can also be three persons in one being -- I am a daughter, a mother, and a wife, yet all of those are that unique being known as Carol.

I believe Jesus was God the Son, God here on earth. He was human but also divine for those 33 or so years. (No, no one can explain how those two natures were mixed inside him.)

Jesus, as a human, did not do anything wrong at all when he lived on earth, and that's why God the Father accepted his perfect sacrifice for the rest of us who aren't perfect.

Of course Islam mentions Jesus more than any other person in their writings, They accept his virgin birth and most of the things he did. With the exception of his death and being raised again.

My comparison of his coming in the last day, would reflect to the Islam believe of the Angel of Light ( sorry if I get this wrong slightly) that will come again on or near the end of mankind.

And yes I follow, which is the Christian teaching in all but a few groups, is that Jesus, is and was part of God, That God is not a person and does not have limits. It is only our minds which can not understand how God can be in all places, part of all things but yet still be God.

We are told in the bible, that the only way to God the Father is though Jesus, he is the gate ( for lack of a better term) It was his death, by taking our sin on his self that allows this to happen.

This is what comes of wandering around aimlessly, you become confused. You are confused about the person of Jesus Christ. He is who he said he is, not who Islam says he is. If Jesus were not God you could not pray in his name and see miracles happen. How come we don't hear of people praying in the name of Mohammed and seeing miracles happen. Ask your Iman that one.

Anyway discussions like this lead nowhere

Um... paraclete, I never said this is what Islam believes. This is what I have believed, from a young age. Islam does not believe how I do about Jesus.

Please do not be rude again. If you don't want to be part of the discussion, that is fine. Don't.

Of course Islam mentions Jesus more than any other person in their writings, They accept his virgin birth and most of the things he did. With the exception of his death and being raised again.

My comparison of his coming in the last day, would reflect to the Islam believe of the Angel of Light ( sorry if I get this wrong slightly) that will come again on or near the end of mankind.

And yes I follow, which is the Christian teaching in all but a few groups, is that Jesus, is and was part of God, That God is not a person and does not have limits. It is only our minds which can not understand how God can be in all places, part of all things but yet still be God.

We are told in the bible, that the only way to God the Father is though Jesus, he is the gate ( for lack of a better term) It was his death, by taking our sin on his self that allows this to happen.

I totally agree that God is not a person and has no limits. But I don't believe Jesus is PART of God. Nor is he God. I believe he was a sinless human being sent BY God, to teach us, lead us to God, Guide us as a sheperd, etc.

Also, I believe that I may be way off, or you may be way off, or EVERYONE may be way off and NO ONE has the right answer yet. I believe we may never know for SURE until we stand before Him and can ask him directly lol.

I believe God is one Being but is also three Persons -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The only way my mind can begin to wrap itself around that is by thinking that I can also be three persons in one being -- I am a daughter, a mother, and a wife, yet all of those are that unique being known as Carol.

I believe Jesus was God the Son, God here on earth. He was human but also divine for those 33 or so years. (No, no one can explain how those two natures were mixed inside him.)

Jesus, as a human, did not do anything wrong at all when he lived on earth, and that's why God the Father accepted his perfect sacrifice for the rest of us who aren't perfect.

This is where it gets confusing lol (for other people, I understand what I'm trying to say but its hard for me to make others see what I mean)

I DO believe That christ is part of the trinity (I don't call it that but that's the best way to explain it) I believe it is more like the Egg. You have the shell, the white, the yolk. EACH part is the egg. But the yolk is NOT the white, the White is NOT the shell, the shell is not the Yolk, etc. they are not all the same thing. But PART of the same thing.
I believe that God is God. And Christ is Christ, (son of god, FROM god) and they are both PART of the holy spirit. But they are not each the SAME thing.

Please tell me I explained that well! LOL

Please tell me i explained that well! LOL
I was always told it's like an apple -- the skin, the flesh, and the core -- all different parts of something called "apple," but each one distinct and with its own purpose, its own function. Same for God the Creator, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit -- all called God, but with different purposes or functions.

That does kind of make sense. But the apple doesn't explain my belief either. Mmm...

How about this I just thought of it. Maybe it will make sense.

Think of an easter basket. God has the basket. You have the holy spirit, which is the gift in the basket. And you have jesus who is the basket, BRINGING us the gift from God, which is the holy spirit.

But, the basket is not God. God HOLDS the basket. And sends us the basket.

Does that help?

So with that example, God is separate from Jesus who is separate from the Holy Spirit?

Mmmm... no that doesn't make sense either does it lol.

I guess the best way to say it is how I said it before, God is God, Jesus is Jesus (not God) they are BOTH part of the holy spirit.

What do you consider is the Spirit's function?

The spirit to me is the love of God. The peace of heaven, the wish, and desire that God has for all of us. That probably makes even less sense :P

That's what it IS, but does it DO anything?

In mainstream Christianity, the Holy Sprint brings a person to faith in God and helps him stay in that faith, even if there are challenges to his faith and wellbeing.

Yes :) yay we are on the same page :P lol.

But who brings the holy spirit to us? The holy spirit brings us to God. Jesus is the shepherd, who leads us to the holy spirit, and shows us, and teaches us how to reach it.

Did you ever read the book, The Shack? It was very popular a few years ago.

Amazon.com: The Shack: Where Tragedy Confronts Eternity (9780964729230): William P. Young: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Shack-Where-Tragedy-Confronts-Eternity/dp/0964729237)

Another analogy of God, by the way, is water = gas or liquid or ice

I think you need to read The Shack. It explains the relationship between God,Jesus, and the Holy Spirit in terms you might be able to grasp. Your confusion stems from your upbringing and not being taught the total relationship of the Trinity.

I think you need to read The Shack. It explains the relationship between God,Jesus, and the Holy Spirit in terms you might be able to grasp. Your confusion stems from your upbringing and not being taught the total relationship of the Trinity.

The Shack is fiction. I stick to the Bible which is the Word of God

The Shack is fiction. I stick to the Bible which is the Word of God
You don't ever read any Bible historical fiction? The Robe? Books by Joseph Girzone? The Left Behind series?

God is in you. Why don't you concentrate real hard on hearing what God wants you to do? Once God knows you really want it, you will hear from him. There is no one here that can make that happen, but you.

You don't ever read any Bible historical fiction? The Robe? books by Joseph Girzone? The Left Behind series?

I read the odd one once it was weird and far off, Look I used to run a christian book store not so long ago, not a lot of interest in it. I've seen some of them made into movies, great cimema but noting to base a spiritual experience on. Next thing you will be telling me is Mel Gibson is the messiah

Wow watch it and be respectful this is a polite conversation not a place to be mean and sarcastic

Next thing you will be telling me is Mel Gibson is the messiah
Actually, no I won't. He was born too late and missed the boat on that one.

So what do you suggest for Jennie in addition to reading the Bible? I know one has to use supplementary materials in order to understand parts of it.

wow watch it and be respectful this is a polite conversation not a place to be mean and sarcastic
I've known 'clete for years and know he loves me deep down inside.

but both these religions believe things that i do not. (do you see how frustrating this is for me lol. not ONE religion fits me perfectly. Maybe i should make a new one! )


Jennie,

I noticed you mentioned both religions believe in things you do not.

Being a Muslim I am curious to know what are those points regarding Islam that you do not believe in?

I have looked back over this thread, hard to keep a conversation going over time and what I would recommend to Jenni is what I would recommend to anyone who doesn't have that close relationship, read the Bible preferably New Testament, pray and ask God to reveal Jesus to you.

From my perspective Christianity is the truth and Islam is at best a distraction.

Jennie,

In another thread I gave you more than just John 1:1 for proof that Jesus is God. But you are in error because you are defining what the WORD actually means. The Bible is a self defining book. The Word was in the beginning, and it says the Word was with God and the Word WAS God. I don't know how much more plain it can be. He was WITH him and he WAS God. AND if that isn't enough skip on down to verse 14 of the same chapter. It is clear as crystal. It says the Word became Flesh and dwelt among us. HELLO?? You wanted God to just say it... well there you go. So the Bible does point blank says Jesus is God. Not just there but other places. Here is the thing Jennie, you seem to be on a quest for truth it is just that you want to define truth the way you want to. I don't mean disrespect. If you just take God at his word, this won't be an issue. But trying to decide what perfect is in your mind doesn't jive with what God says. Jesus became a man. He had physical needs. What in the world is imperfect about that? On the contrary he was 100 percent God he didn't sin EVEN with all physical demands of being 100 percent human. He didn't get cranky when he was tired, he didn't steal when he was hungry, he didn't get drunk and he didn't lie when he was under stress. He didn't lust after women, he was a perfect human because he is God.

AND... in the gospels reading about the Lord Jesus life, you have to understand that each writer (under the inspriation of the Holy Spirit) gives a different view point of him. In other words, when you read the gospel of John... Jesus is represented as God or the son of God. The book of Mathew, he is the KING or the Jewish messiah, Luke is written in the view point he is the Son of Man. Everything written about him must be put into context.

The problem with Christianity today is truth it is all watered down, mixed up and taken out of context. No wonder you are confused. Most Christians, churches even Pastors are. Sorry, I calls them like I sees them. :D This is the reason the Apostle Paul wrote directly to the body of believers to rightly divide the Word of truth. You have to divide the things written.. who they are written to, the context. Dividing isn't the same as eliminating.

The bible is THE most fasinating book ever written. There are so many hidden truths and wonders I can't even begin to know. But one thing is for certain, if you don't believe that it is completely without error and totally inspired of God and utterly the truth, I doubt you will ever really understand who the Lord Jesus really is, and what he accomplished for us. But I can tell you this for sure He is altogether LOVELY and certainly worth knowing. I hope you find the TRUTH. I really do. :)

AND... in the gospels reading about the Lord Jesus life, you have to understand that each writer (under the inspriation of the Holy Spirit) gives a different view point of him.
Also, remember each writer had his own profession and special interests. Luke, for instance, was a doctor, so his Gospel account included information and details from a practical and human perspective. And his Christmas story in the second chapter of his Gospel is the most famous one, the most quoted one for that very reason.

This is the reason the Apostle Paul wrote directly to the body of believers to rightly divide the Word of truth.
I still don't quite get "rightly divide." To me, that's a negative connotation. There has to be a better way to say that. I've been hanging out with church people since before I was born, and had never heard that phrase until you used it.

Wow I missed a lot! I'm sorry!


WG, I'm glad you and para aren't fighting. It looked like it and I was worried :)

FirmBeliever, I have wanted to meet you for a long time! I've seen some of your posts and answers on the Islam board here at AMHD but never got to meet you yet.

Mostly, it's that I have never believed God to be so unforgiving as many Muslims believe. I don't think he would hate us and turn his backs on us if we don't preform Salah. I am not sure about all the rules, restrictions, and regulations. It all confuses me and makes me wonder if God truly asked us of these things, or if it was an implication of man, that slowly turned from culture, to belief, to tradition, and then LAW.
I hope that makes sense. Its so hard to explain. It just doesn't seem that Muslims have the VERY VERY CLOSE relationship with God that I seek. It seems so institutionalized and regulated. Its not personal at all. At least as far as I can see.

WG, im glad you and para arent fighting. it looked like it and i was worried :)
Naw, not Paraclete and me. We're old friends from another Q&A site. If he doesn't agree with me, he'll tell me so, and vice versa. I see through his Australian gruffness.

wow i missed a lot! im sorry!!

FirmBeliever, I have wanted to meet you for a long time! ive seen some of your posts and answers on the Islam board here at AMHD but never got to meet you yet.

Mostly, its that i have never believed God to be so unforgiving as many Muslims believe. I dont think he would hate us and turn his backs on us if we don't preform Salah. I am not sure about all the rules, restrictions, and regulations. it all confuses me and makes me wonder if God truly asked us of these things, or if it was an implication of man, that slowly turned from culture, to belief, to tradition, and then LAW.
I hope that makes sense. its so hard to explain. it just doesn't seem that Muslims have the VERY VERY CLOSE relationship with God that i seek. it seems so institutionalized and regulated. its not personal at all. at least as far as i can see.

We have met :D!

Islam has rules and regulations which govern the everyday life of all Muslims. Salah being the topmost, as this is when we are closest to our Creator,especially in the position of sujood,prostration.

Regarding the rules and regulations; that is what Islam is about, submission to Allah.

---------

From Muttaqun OnLine - Shahada: Confession of a Muslim (http://muttaqun.com/shahada.html). You can read the whole article via this link.

La ilaha il Allah, Muhammad-ur-Rasool-Allah
(None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah)

To be a muslim is to pledge the above covenant with Allah, the Creator of the heavens and earth, the Ruler of all that exists, the Lord of Majesty and Highness, stating La ilaha il Allah, Muhammad -ur-Rasool-Allah, but first one must understand what this really means.

Believing "La ilaha il Allah" (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah)

Point 1: Tauhid-ar-Rububiyya

A confession with your heart that the Creator (of everything) is Allah, it is that you have to say: "I testify that the Creator of all the universe, including the stars, the planets, the sun, the moon, the heavens, the earth with all its known and unknown forms of life, is Allah. He is the Organizer and Planner of all its affairs. It is He Who gives life and death, and He (i.e. Allah Alone) is the Sustainer, and the Giver of Security, etc." And this is called your confession for the "Oneness of the Lordship of Allah," Tauhid-ar-Rububiyya.

Point 2: Tauhid-al-Uluhiyya
A confession with your heart that you have to say: "I testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah Alone." The word "Worship" (i.e. Ibadah) carries a great number of meanings in the Arabic language: It conveys that all kinds of worship are meant for Allah (and none else, whether it be an angel, Messenger, Prophet Jesus - son of Mary, Ezra, Muhammad, saint, idol, the sun, the moon and all other kinds of false deities). So pray to none but Allah, invoke none but Allah, ask for help from none (unseen) but Allah, swear by none but Allah, offer an animal as sacrifice to none but Allah, …etc. and that means, -- all that Allah and Allah’s Messenger, saaws, order you to do (in Qur’an and in As-Sunna [legal ways of Prophet Muhammad ]) you must do, and all that Allah, s.w.t, Allah’s Messenger forbid you, you must not do. And this is called (your confession for the) "Oneness of the worship of Allah", Tauhid-al-Uluhiyya. And that you (mankind) worship none but Allah.

Those whom they invoke besides Allâh have not created anything, but are themselves created. [The Noble Qur'an 16:20]

Point 3: Tauhid-al-Asma was-Sifat

A confession with your heart that you have to say: "O Allah! I testify that all the best of names and the most perfect qualities with which You have named or qualified Yourself in Your Book (i.e. the Qur’an) or as Your Prophet Muhammad (saaws) has named or qualified You, with his statement, I confirm that all those (names and qualifications) are for You without changing their meanings or neglecting them completely or giving resemblance to others." As Allah, swt, said:

"There is nothing like unto Him and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer." (v.42:11)

This Ayat (verse) confirms the quality of hearing and the quality of sight for Allah, subhana watala without resemblance to others.
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I hope you find the peace you are searching for, Jennie.




.

I have to ask this as its something I do not understand and since we are discussing rules of the muslim faith. How is it that so many lives are taken in the name of Allah and why is it that it appears (to me) that women are not a more prominent figure in the muslim lifestyle?

To me in celebrating Allah (or God) then it seems you would want to celebrate life and all its parts to honor Allah.

Can you help me make sense and understand this thinking?

Also, i believe that I may be way off, or you may be way off, or EVERYONE may be way off and NO ONE has the right answer yet. I believe we may never know for SURE until we stand before Him and can ask him directly lol.


And the not knowing is where faith comes in... :) I believe you will come to understand in a way that makes sense to you... in a way that you were meant to.

I often bring up that people usually believe what they believe, if even just the basics, because of where they happened to be born and the family that they were raised in. Certainly some people alter their beliefs for various reasons, but most couldn't be swayed just as they could not sway others who believe differently.

Different journeys... alternate paths... various tour guides... same destination.

Jenni without getting into you said, he said, if you want a close relationship with God then you need the infilling of the Holy Spirit, this comes through the baptism of the Holy Spirit and you won't find this teaching in Islam. Islam is religion, Christianity is relationship and you have to get past the religious forms to see this.

God is love, he is not distant or unapproachable.


You also need to know that when I make remarks I am sometimes being flippant, sometimes serious but rarely am I attempting to be nasty. I believe that the Bible is true and the Word of God. In order to benefit from what it says we have to believe that any other writings that do not line up with it are in error, because God doesn't tell us one thing then tell us something different. Islam is a work of man, so please be careful and don't be misled

Calif, even as an outside woman looking into Islam and learning about it, I never once felt that woman were less than men. Just different. At least that's the way I saw it.

Doula that was beautifully said. Thank you *hugs*

Para, I do see what you mean. But the only 'christians' I have seen lately, are just a standardized institution, that have no real connection to god. Its just another service. Another faith. Another sermon. Nothing more.

That is part of my problem I think. I have yet to find a church (or temple or mosque, which ever it may be!) that I feel is FAMILY. The only church I have found that came close to the right loving, family 'feel' is the mormon church. And I honestly just can't believe some of the mormon beliefs. (thats for another time, but I refufse to accept some of their beliefs)

Maybe I should cut my losses and become messianic jew :P lol

If you want to be a part of terrific church suppers and picnics (with lots of great recipes), become a Missouri-Synod Lutheran.

Is there more than one type of Lutheran? I've been to a few Lutheran churches and they were all rich stuck up people.

Calif, even as an outside woman looking into Islam and learning about it, i never once felt that woman were less than men. just different. at least thats the way i saw it.

Doula that was beautifully said. Thank you *hugs*

Para, i do see what you mean. but the only 'christians' i have seen lately, are just a standardized institution, that have no real connection to god. its just another service. another faith. another sermon. nothing more.

that is part of my problem i think. i have yet to find a church (or temple or mosque, which ever it may be!) that i feel is FAMILY. the only church i have found that came close to the right loving, family 'feel' is the mormon church. and i honestly just can't believe some of the mormon beliefs. (thats for another time, but i refufse to accept some of thier beliefs)

maybe i should cut my losses and become messianic jew :P lol

Well that one may be an option but you need to move outside of traditional Christianity. I'm not saying that there aren't people with my revelation there (I have found them in many denominations) but they are harder to find and in some places closely watched. See if you can find a pentecostal church that feels right for you and they will teach you. Look I was raised a Catholic, wandered in my youth but after many years I came back into the Church by a different door and the difference is huge. I have many brothers and sisters in many denominations and they are all family but it all happened after I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Please stay away from Mormons and JW, they will just confuse you and the same with Muslims. Read the Word and seek God for revelation. Remember darkness and light have no relationship

Wow! Were those Lutherans in your state where you live?

There are three major Lutheran branches and a bunch of small ones. The biggies are ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America). Those might be the rich ones you mentioned. They are also liberal in doctrine. Then there's the Missouri-Synod, many of whose grandparents came from Germany and were mostly farmers and small business owners. They're doctrinally conservative. Then there's the Wisconsin Synod, more farmers and tradesmen descendants. They're VERY conservative.

Ask me more questions.

Lol yes WG they were the ELCA ones.
I would like a very very conservative church. But the problem there, is I have not led a very conservative life until recently (I got pregnant at 18, was unmarried, never married my child's father, almost divorced my husband, I'm a smoker, I cuss lol. Several things)

So maybe Missouri-Synod would be a good church to look into?

I went to my aunt and uncles church once. They are Orthodox Presbyterian. While I see nothing wrong with that, they are good Christians with good hearts, they also are strong believers in Original Sin, (born sinners) and predestination (Calvinism) and that's another thing that is a huge deal breaker for me that I just can't wrap my head around and believe in those 2 things.

Gosh this is so hard. Maybe I should take a break from all the 'church' worries, and just focus on God directly for a while. I'm sure he won't mind :P

gosh this is so hard. maybe i should take a break from all the 'church' worries, and just focus on God directly for a while. im sure he wont mind :P

There you go... :) Focus on that relationship... at some point, perhaps through people you meet, an advertisement, something you read in the paper, etc. you may find other churches that you would like to visit.

You can be committed to God without having to be committed to a church.

I have to ask this as its something I do not understand and since we are discussing rules of the muslim faith. How is it that so many lives are taken in the name of Allah and why is it that it appears (to me) that women are not a more prominent figure in the muslim lifestyle?

To me in celebrating Allah (or God) then it seems you would want to celebrate life and all its parts to honor Allah.

Can you help me make sense and understand this thinking?


As a woman and a believer I don't think I am oppressed or less than a man. Islam has different roles for the men and women.

We as women don't have an obligation to look after our brothers,sisters,mothers, husbands,children financially whereas the men has this responsibility of taking care of his sisters, brothers,mothers, wives, children etc.
This means he has to work and earn, women do not have to earn,but if we want we can and what we earn is ours alone. That is just one of the differences between men and women in Islam.

Those who kill innocent people,will have their due punishment in the Hereafter.


.

I still don't quite get "rightly divide." To me, that's a negative connotation. There has to be a better way to say that. I've been hanging out with church people since before I was born, and had never heard that phrase until you used it.

The Apostle Paul instructed us to rightly divide it. Certainly I didn't coin the phrase! It was just that little ol apostle that was given the awesome responsibility to write most of the NT. The one that got direct revelation from the resurrected Lord himself. The ONLY apostle that was given the gospel of Grace to preach to the Gentile world. OUR apostle. SO... it isn't negative at ALL. It is proper and the only way to really understand the Bible. It is about context, dividing who it is written directly to as well as who wrote it. Grace writing verses the Law. The gospel of the Kingdom vs Paul's gospel of Grace. Peter and the 12 didn't fully understand Paul's gospel. This is why Peter called Paul's writings hard to understand. This is why you don't get the same terminology in Peter, James, Jude and John. Thus the instructions to" rightly divide the word of truth". Just saying

Jennie,

didn't mean to hijack but wanted to explain myself to WG. The deal is, Christianity isn't a religion. It is a relationship with the creator. It isn't about rules, regulations or being good and working to get God's approval. The Father is completely satisfied with the Lord Jesus and his work on the cross. When we accept him as our savior and the ONLY way to the Father we become just as if we had never sinned in God's eyes. Just as God poured out his wrath on Jesus Christ and he became SIN for us, ( although he never sinned) we become PERFECT in Christ, although we sin. It is the greatest exchange. Jesus became sin and took the punishment meant for us, we get perfection. What a deal. Why would anyone want to go backwards and pick up a religion?

The Apostle Paul instructed us to rightly divide it.
But St. Paul wrote those words to St. Timothy specifically, not to the congregation in general.

WG.

LOL... you make me laugh when you argue this stuff. Ha ha ha. :) Okie dokie... Timmy was the only one that needed to rightly divide the word of truth! My bad. :D

Paul instructed Timothy concerning the Chruch. Timothy also taught the Church. Paul instructed him how the assembly or Church should run. It is a book written to Timothy but it was written for the Church as well. AND so I feel I can totally say Paul was speaking directly to ME when he said these words to Timothy :

However, avoid pointless discussions... 2 Timothy 2:16

Again, Jennie.. sorry for the hijack. WG and I do this frequently. We usually agree to disagree. :)

As a woman and a believer I dont think I am oppressed or less than a man. Islam has different roles fo the men and women.


This means he has to work and earn, women do not have to earn,but if we want we can and what we earn is ours alone. That is just one of the differences between men and women in Islam.

.

Ok I had never heard that before about being allowed. Which brings me to my next question. Isn't it written somewhere that the woman must ask for permission even when just leaving the house for errands?

Im not trying to pick things apart nor pick on you. Im just wondering where the dividing lines are.

No worries classy :) talk about whatever you like in this discussion!

Calif, I think (firmbeliever correct me if I am wrong) you may be confusing Islam with the culture of middle east countries. They are very different.

No worries classy :) talk about whatever you like in this discussion!

Calif, I think (firmbeliever correct me if i am wrong) you may be confusing Islam with the culture of middle east countries. they are very different.

No jenny they aren't. That is what most people think also.

Ref:

The Rules for Muslim Women | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/list_7493283_rules-muslim-women.html)

Women in Islam (http://www.islamfortoday.com/women.htm#Rights)