I live in an 8 unit condominium in Florida. I have had it confirmed by two plumbing companies that there is a water leak in the concrete in the master bathroom. The copper piping is set in concrete. They tell me I have to have the whole condo unit, mine, repiped. Who's responsibility is this? The condo association or the owner? Or do they split the costs for repairs? Is there the possibility that this might be covered by homeowner's insurance? Thanks for any help and tips you can provide me.

Kathy

I am a Florida plumber. For the past 50 years I have water piped condos from Tampa to Fort Myers. What's your location? What floor is your unit on? As a rule if the leak is in a common area the cost is assumed by the condo association. However, if the leak's in your unit you bear the cost. Read th condo docs. To be sure. Also check with your insurance agent to see if you're covered.
Why repipe the entire unit for a under slab leak? Wouldn't be simpler and less expensive to locate the manifold and cap off the line and run it overhead? Just a thought, Good luck, Tom

Thanks I will check with my insurance company. I am on the 1st floor in Cape Coral. From what I am understanding the orignal piping was laid in the concrete slab, then fished up the walls. I believe they are going to bypass the original piping and run all new starting from the outside faucet where it enters my unit. Either through the dropped ceilings where possible or along the top of the wall near ceiling. Then cover the piping with? Slips my mind right now. I was told it had to be the whole unit. Seeing this is not my expertise that is why I am asking questions. In the master b/r the toilet sits behind the wall that the shower head is on. When the main water value is turning on one can hear the sound of running water but not see it in that area. However, after the water has been running for a while it evendually works it way up and begins seeping out from under the baseboard on the back side of the shower head wall. Is it possible to cap that off without ripping up my tile floor?

Is it possible to cap that off without ripping up my tile floor? Sure is! I worked in Fort Myers back in 1964 when Cape Coral was just a concept in swampy land. Back to your situation.
Here's what I would do.
If the Condo Association or your home owners will foot the bill let them repipe the unit. However, If were going to be on my dime I would locate the manifold located in a wall, We piped with soft "L" type copper and and brought every pipe up out of the slab and tied them together in a manifold. Now this means locating the above ground manifold and capping off the leaky pipe. This pipe is now dead. Next I would tie a raiser backmanifold and jump up to the ceiling and over to pick up the fixture I supplied.
Much cheaper then tearing up the entire unit to repipe. Sound like a plan?
It's going to take a pretty sharp plumber to do this so be sure your plumber has plenty of experience. Good luck and let me know how you make out.
Tom

Thanks Tom. You make it sound so easy. Yes, it sounds like a plan, that is if someone down here can figure out how to do it. First of all Condo Association will not pay for any of it nor will my insurance company. They call it maintenance seeing there is no water damage. At least not so far. I am stumped when you talk about the manifold. What does it look like and where would one begin to look for it? It has been a long day. First guy told me job was beyond him. It would not be a simple pipe repair and more than he could handle as he felt the leak was in the copper piping in the concrete. Next contractor agreed about the leak. He looked inside the wall by shower head and could see no leak. Saw the water pipe and also mentioned something about the drain line running down from upstairs in the same area. When I turned the water on he said, it did not sound like it was in the wall, it had a different tone being lower, in the concrete. His company is suppose to be writing a proposal which will include the repipe, patching and painting of the walls, permit and clean up. 2nd contractor can't get here until Friday 8 am. 3rd contractor never showed up.
Kathy

Hey Kathy,
A manifold is simply copper pipe that's brought up inside a wall and other copper pipes are tied together with tees and elbos. There's a pipe that carries the pressure. We bring that up in the wall. This pip[e feeds other pipes that then go back under the slab to feed other fixtures, Nothing mysteries about it.
As for locating a manifold If you know someone with a metal detector, (the kind you see on the beach) and have him scope out the walls that should tell you where to start.
As I said, a sharp plumber could save you big bucks.
When a sharp plumber walks into a strange house he looks around at the bath and kitchen placement and right away he can come pretty close to knowing just about where your drain and sewage pipes are under the slab. Magic? 2nd sight? Nah! He just lays the drainage and sewer main out in his head the way he would do it. And 9 time out of 10 he' bang on. And since a lot of plumbers use the same trench as the drainage after they cover the drainage with dirt, So it shouldn't too long before he can open a section of wall and expose. Once he determines which pipe' leaking he can cut it out of the manifold and run a new pipe up in the ceiling. There! I just repaired your unit in my head. Good luck and please keep me in the loop. Tom

Ok, now I am equipped with more questions for them tomorrow. Thanks again. Yes, I will let you know the outcome.

Kathy

If you can isolate the pipe that is leaking underground, cut at both ends and run a electrician snake through the line, tape it solid to pex plastic water pipe and pull it through copper water line and reconnect at both ends with proper connecter fittings. Make sure you size pex pipe so it will go through copper pipe. You can make this repair without doing any damage or running new lines and pex pipe is pretty much a lifetime fix.

In addition to those excellent advices you have already received from our Experts: I fully agree with Tom. No need to repipe. You either cut the slab and fix the leak ( solder with silver ) and cover up or cut off the leaking pipe where it loops to the bathroom ( leave it under slab ) and by-pass it through the ceiling.

FYI: in our HOA, pipes that cannot be seen ( are hidden ) are responsibility of HOA

Your first and only step is to find out who has the legal responsibility to repair this pipe. You signed and were given a copy of the condo covenants when you bought, most folks do not read or save them but they are a legally binding doc. If you tear into something that is not yours to fix you may end up in a real mess. I have been a condo owner and also a board member of an HOA, I have never seen one where this would be your responsibility to repair.

Thanks to all of you who responded. I'm lucky that I got two contractors to show up and give estimates. Another contractor was too busy to talk business and another was a no call/no show. I have talked with both contractors about Tom's suggestions and neither one will do it that way. They both insist on doing a repipe for the whole condo, running the new lines from above. They said, once there is a leak it is more likely another one will follow. That I should just do it and not worry about it anymore. Bidding between the two of them was $5 difference with the bottom costs being $2,680. I'm going with him not because of the money but included in the proposal is painting of the patch work and crown molding installed should there be any exposed piping that won't fit above the ceiling. Remember I am on the first floor with a concrete slab above me. No attic to work in. For and extra $225 they will install a new value, trim and shower head in M/BR. That cartrigege has seized up again and has been replaced by others twice in the last 4 years. Plus I believe it is the original anyway and the plate is also cracked. Thanks again for your help. At least I felt like I had someone watching over my shoulder. Bad news is this work won't start until next Thursday unless there is a cancellation. I have been without water since Wednesday morning. Thank goodness for the pool and outside shower. I sure hope I have made the right decision.

Kathy

I am sorry I do not agree with your contracters. Just because you have one leak doesn't mean you will have another. It depends on what caused the leak, a pipe that has leaked because of corrosion or soil conditions, then I would run new piping, but if it is caused by a bad solder joint I would not. Since I cannot see exactly what the problem is I would go with whatever gives you piece of mine. Responsibility of paying for the repairs I believe would be determined by what your association is. If it is a condo association I would think they would be responable. If it is a Homeowners condo association like mine is you would be responable. Being a homeowners association instead of a condo association (there is a difference)I am responable for anything from drywall in, but not for anything on the outside.

So Kathy, does this mean you reviewed your Association Covenants and found for sure that these pipes are you responsibility?

Hey Bob,
Your concerns were answered early in page one,

First of all Condo Association will not pay for any of it nor will my insurance company. They call it maintenance seeing there is no water damage. This is why I was attempting to get her by on the cheap..
Regards, Tom

"First of all Condo Association will not pay " is frequently their standard answer like a health insurance claim denial. She must do her homework and read the covenants. Its like the sign at the coat check room that says not responsible for stolen coats, they are responsible but if they can get to to walk away they are money ahead. A laeking pipe inside a poured floor is certainly not maintenance.

One additional thing that sunk her is that the leak was in her unit and not in a common area. Without any exceptions, ( at least in Florida) If anything goes bad in your unit the cost is all years. Got to be in a common area and even then some Condo Associations will drag their feet when it comes to paying out. Cheers, Tom

That's why its so important to read the covenants. In any covanent I have ever read below the floor surface of a living unit, including the foundation, is not private property. For example, a footing fails and sinks below just one unit, it is not common property, as is the roof structure. In many if not most covenants the "owner" only owns from the painted surface inward. It is worth reading the document cover to cover. The HOA board members are property owners too and likely only a bit more up on the rules. The manager often makes the call and shoots for the lowest cost to the board so the manager loooks like a money saver to the members.

I am taking your advise and checking even further into whose responsibility it is to pay this cost. If I am remembering correctly our docs do say the owner is responsible for any thing INSIDE the walls. I wrote an email to our Association Management Company and HOA President as follows: I am obtaining prices to replace the water lines in Unit #104. I would like confirmation on whom is responsible for this cost. There is a leak in the slab which is not technically inside of my unit. Please advise and state where your answer is noted in our Condominium Documents. I will also pull my documents out and read them again. As for the maintenance which I stated earlier that was the insurance company telling me that. They said, they only pay out if there is water damage. She didn't make it clear if they would then pay for the repipe or not. Sounded like only for water damaged things. I told her I found the flooded floor and was able to stop the water just as it was about to enter the clothes closets. From my past experience with insurance companies they pay out very little or nothing at all. That is a whole different story. What I would like to know is how does one do maintenance on something set in concrete below the floors of a unit. Do you guys have an ideas on how to do that?

Even I don't think the entire condo has to be repiped, I also think the price you have gotten is good and low enough to proceed with the work without any second guessing. Good luck and let us know how it went with HOA. Milo

To the best of my knowledge, homeowners insurance will pay for any damage from plumbing leaks, but will not pay for the repair of the plumbing itself. They will pay for any damage made to get to the plumbing repair. So if you had to break the concrete floor to repair leak they would pay to repair floor but not to fix the leak.

I have a question please.

If I understand your post, you have water coming out between the baseboard and the floor of a wall close to your toilet.
How do you know where the water is coming from? How could you, the plumbers, or any one else know that it is coming from underneath the floor. It could be coming from underneath the floor or it could be coming from a leak in the wall.

I would take a hammer and knock a hole in the wall above the place where you first see the water and look.

The problem could be a simple as a leaking solder joint or a pin hole leak. My guess would be that it is a pin hole leak in the pipe in the wall.

I must really be misunderstanding your post. In my opinion, the way you describe how the water appears, it is more likely that it is a leak in the wall than a leak underneath the slab. Right now neither you, the plumbers, nor I could possibly know where the leak is occurring. You only know where you see the water. Sounds like you are about to do a $2500 plumbing repair to avoid a $25 drywall patch job.

Furthermore, if you don't confirm that it is coming up from underneath the slab and not from within the wall, you will never be able to force the condo association to accept responsibly.

You bring up some very good points. The water seeps from under the baseboard on the backside of the wall that shower head is on. The toilet is also set behind this wall. The water does not seep up immediately. It seems like the water needs to run for a while before backing up. Two contractors told me they could tell by the sound of the water running, when it is turned on that it is coming up from below. That it would be a different sound if it were between the wall. One contractor took the plate off the wall and the on/off nozzle to see if he could see anything in the wall with his tool. It had a light on the end which was then showing a picture on a screen. He said, he really couldn't see anything and of course the water was shut off at that time. Yes, I do wonder what he would have seen if the water was on. The third contractor did not even want me to turn the water on for him to listen and decide for himself. I am told that in this area there are a lot of chemicals put into our city water as we use an osmosis <sp?> system to purify the water. Many people won't even drink the water because of the taste. Kathy

Two contractors told me they could tell by the sound of the water running,

That is as big a pile of you know what as I have ever heard.

Get your hammer and start knocking holes in your wall. You can't know where a leak is until you see it. Drywall is easily repaired.

I do not wish to be unkind but your lack of knowledge on this subject is obvious. Personally I think you are being taken advantage of by these contractors.

To the best of my knowledge, homeowners insurance will pay for any damage from plumbing leaks, but will not pay for the repair of the plumbing itself. They will pay for any damage made to get to the plumbing repair. So if you had to break the concrete floor to repair leak they would pay to repair floor but not to fix the leak

YA THINK? Puff, all you have done is to repeat what has already been said. Come on sport Come up with something original. Cheers, Tom

Puff, I have given you a good rating before but you are new here so be careful how you use that rating system. Tom is correct in the fact that you too did not offer a fix to Kathy so what's with your bad rating on Tom for pointing that out?

I am sorry if you got the impression that I was giving Tom a bad rating, that was not my intention. I did give her advice on how her insurance may work, that has been my experience with insurance companies dealing with plumbing repairs. I also gave her a excellent fix with her plumbing problem that I have used many times on a leaking pipe under a slab, by pulling pex pipe through the old line which leaves no damage to floors or walls, if her problem turns out to be a leak in a line under the slab.

I appreciate your reply. Its important for you to understand the rating system before you click on helpful, not helpful, agree or disagree. This thread may help you see how it works. https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/forum-help/greenies-comment-591972.html I did read your post about pullling pex but that does no work in the real world. Pex can not be pulled inside and old pipe, it stops dead at the first turn.

orry if you got the impression that I was giving Tom a bad ratin Which is exactly what you did! Ratings mean nothing to me. My job is to answer questions and monitor the posts. When I see a post that simply repeats what has been said I begin to wonder If this was posted because the "expert" that posted it was so ignorant that he failed to read all of the thread or just wanted to throw anything up that would increase his number of posts. Any way you look at it you were wrong and I called you on it. Your post was "drek" having simply repeated earlier posts without being helpful.
You also went on to say
Give her recommendations, not sarcasm I gave her a step by step on repairing the leak the sarcasm was meant for you,
"PUFF" you are well named since your last post was a puff if I ever saw one.
Be advised that from here on in your posts will be monitored for content in the future. If you can add to the problem that would be good but if you continue to "puff" up your posts with drivel simply to run up your numbers will be deleted by me. Now! I'll accept another reddy that you seem to think that makes you look better.
I'll be watching, Tom

Ballengerb, This will be my last post on this subject because I don't see where this discussion is helping Kathy. I have pulled pex pipe through underground copper in the real world, if soft L copper coil is used underground it will pull right through it by cutting both ends of the soft copper, push an electrical snake through the copper line, secure the pex pipe to the snake and pull it through. I don't know about Fla. But in this part of the country you must use soft copper undergound with no joints, so there are no elbows or sharp bends to stop the pex pipe from coming through.

Okay guys here is the latest scoop. It is still bugging me that I can see no water except when it seeps up through the floor under the baseboard. From what I can see through the opening of the shower faucet is that the wall in that area is dry and so are the water pipes and value. I can get my hand in the opening. I turned the water back on for me to check, still dry. Yes, although the shower and toilet are shut off I can still hear water running. I have had the water turned on so far for 1 1/2 hours and no sign of water seeping in the M/BR. Out of curiosity I have put my ear to all the other walls that have plumbing behind them;other B/R,and kitchen sink. I hear the same noise of running water. This is telling me the water is still running underground. My thought is that it does not seep up into the condo until it is fully flooded below my unit. I will keep checking it and also outside. On Friday there was a large area of water standing several inches deep next to the building where my main shut off valve is located. The water leakage and main turn off are on opposite ends of my condo unit. I still have not heard anything back from Assoc Management or Condo Assoc President. I wrote to them on Thursday or Friday. Hmmm... in Dec 2010 there was a water leak at the other of the building. It actually caused a sink hole. I was told the Assoc had to pay for the repairs because it was from water leaking before it entered the building. So now I am skepical about signing the contract if it is not my liability. I will try reaching them again on Monday for an answer. Kathy

The saga goes on. I still don't have water. Management is sitting on her dead ----, too busy doing other things. Tuesday I handed delivered a letter to her office and made her sign a receipt for it. As she was not returning emails or calling me. Now she states she will NOT issue the paper work needed for the contractor in order for him to get a permit. This is because I am saying it is the Association's responsibility according to our documents. She says no and that she needs to get in contact with the 3 board members who by the way all live up north in different states. She also stated she did not know I was without water. Well, duh... even dumby me knew to turn it off when I found my floor flooded. Thank you for reminding ME to read the docs and not just go on someone else's word. I have checked extensively with others in the management field and they tell me it is not my responsibility. Next will be to hire an attorney if I need to. The association can then pay for those expenses also.

What prevents you from contacting the president of the association directly?
Or for that matter any or all of the board members.

KathyHas aznybody ever bothered to open up the wall the water's coming out of? This could be as simple as a leak in a above ground manifold.
You speak of a permit. This is a repair job and unless local codes require a permit be pulled a repair job doesn't need one.
Good luck with the Condo Board. In my dealings with then I've found Condo Boards to be very uptight about paying for any problem that's confined to the owners unit andwill fight to the death before turning loose any cash. You say you've read yours and found a loophole? Could you paste up the section that says they will pay for repairing your unit? Bet a lot of condo owners up here would be interested in reading that part.
Good luck, Tom

It all states that I know of you have the right to speak to all board members at a regularly scheduled meeting of the Board. If you want to get the best answer from them call and ask to be on the agenda, otherwise you have the right to speak but no expectation of Board response or comment.