Don't know how many of you are aware of the riots here in the Uk for the last 3 nights. Last night was particularly bad. My son had to walk home from work past rioters and fires and a road near where he lives was looted and set on fire. His local banks and food stores were smashed up. What started in London has spread to several cities across the Uk. The prime minister finally decided to cut short his holiday last night and the leaders have an emergency meeting this morning. Let's hope they get some plan together to gain control tonight.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14453918

Many are calling for the army to be called out, not sure if we have many troops left who aren't in Afghanistan or Libya though after all the defence cuts...

Here's some further coverage: BBC News - Further riots in London as violence spreads across England (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14450248)

I've seen some pix of the rioters. Would you call them your typical roudy Brit at a soccer match crowd ? Doesn't look like it to me .

My son posted on his facebook: 'Had to dodge flying bricks and fires walking home from work. I have a bush ear-marked to jump into if they set our flats on fire. What could go wrong?'
His sister replied, 'check the bush isn't on fire first... '

Glad they have a sense of humour but not really what a parent wants to be reading!

I've seen some pix of the rioters. Would you call them your typical roudy Brit at a soccer match crowd ? Doesn't look like it to me .

Been watching the news on TV this morning and London met are calling it the worst in living memory and comapring scenes to the Blitz. Politicians are saying, 'We will use water cannons,' 'We definitely won't be using water cannon.' 'We might be calling in the army/' 'It is too soon to call on the army.' And even one government member, 'We don't have any army left.'

About time someone got their act together.

London riots / UK riots: verified areas - Google Maps (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msid=207192798388318292131.0004aa01af6748773e8f 7&msa=0&ll=51.558503%2C-0.055275&spn=0.114195%2C0.298691)

Just in case you want to check where your closest riots are and how to get directions to them... :(

I suspect the rioters are using 'flash mob' technology .

Reports we have here is that this is organised using twitter and SMS, it is criminal opportunism. Have noted the original incident which involves a person of colour being shot by police, a rare event in the UK, apparently he had something to do with firearms trafficking, so police were armed.
It doesn't seem to matter where you are in the world, whenever someone from a disadvantaged background is killed by police the community goes nuts, immediately it is labellied a racist act and exploited.
I feel for the people in the UK, hooligans have taken over the streets. I fail to understand why police haven't used water cannon or fire hoses
Here is an onsite opinion
http://www.news.com.au/world/london-burns-as-215-arrested-for-rioting/story-e6frfkyi-1226111341895

Are there any political issues that is at issue ,or is this just an excuse for an anarchist arson and looting fest ?

Are there any political issues that is at issue ,or is this just an excuse for an anarchist arson and looting fest ?

Listening to a UK MP interviewed here, he, as an eyewitness, said that they were highly organised groups operating out of residential streets targeting one suburb after another. Just outright criminality taking targets of opportunity. I also noted that the TV shots of perpetraters were of coloured people so these are likely to be low rent coloured areas. There could be a far right anarchist agenda operating here but that isn't being reported yet.

Are there any political issues that is at issue ,or is this just an excuse for an anarchist arson and looting fest ?

‪London Riots - Scum steal from injured boy.‬‏ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gex_ya4-Oo)

This shows what kind of people are rioting

We didn't have any doubts about the type of people who behave like this

Just highlighting the obviousness that it isn't a political riot

we didn't have any doubts about the type of people who behave like thisHello again, clete:

Just as any doubt about your racism has been REMOVED.

excon

Are riots ever performed by white collar people in suits? Anyone have a video of that? Anywhere in the world?

I read yesterday that kids as young as 7 were involved. Really? I hope they get it contained.

It seems that lots of different factions are involved, all following their own agendas. Some of it looks racially motivated. There have been reports of blacks attacking muslims, and other immigrant sections banding together. Plenty of whilte 'hoodies' involved too. I was discussing this with my daughter who pointed out, 'well each group is texting round it's own set of mates, if you're a black gangster that will be other black gangsters, if you're a white chav other white chavs.' That seems a reasonable observation. I think it is morphing as it grows with different agendas being cited as excuses.

A child as young as 11 has been arrested, I know that.

Hello again, clete:

Just as any doubt about your racism has been REMOVED.

excon

What I see Ex are yobbos, mainly black, youths in hooded jackets and masks, and in my opinion the kindest thing that could be done for them is put them out of their misery. The facts speak for themselves, these are criminals, thugs and thieves, arsonists, anarchists and they should be treated to the same violence they inflict on society, a little bit of the old ultra-V..

Now I know that won't accord with your bleeding heart liberal view of life but then I'm not here to please you:D

and in my opinion the kindest thing that could be done for them is put them out of their misery.
So if we kill them all does the problem go away?

Are there any political issues that is at issue ,or is this just an excuse for an anarchist arson and looting fest ?

Does this count??

Ken Livingstone blames Tottenham riot on spending cuts - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8687484/Ken-Livingstone-blames-Tottenham-riot-on-spending-cuts.html)

So if we kill them all does the problem go away?

That depends on what you see as the problem, but when you have less arsonists, and anarchists, less thugs and thieves in your society your problems certainly diminish

Does this count??

Ken Livingstone blames Tottenham riot on spending cuts - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8687484/Ken-Livingstone-blames-Tottenham-riot-on-spending-cuts.html)
Yeah you knew that would set me off.
That's what you'd expect from the socialist former Mayor of London Livingstone.

Brings up an interesting point however . You would think with the level of taxation there would be no issues with sovereign debt. The coffers should over flow . The Brits have sunk the wealth of the nation into their Fabian visions of cradle to grave nanny state .
In doing so they destroyed their sacred identity .


What we have on the streets of London and elsewhere are welfare-state mobs. The youth who are ‘rising up’ – actually they are simply shattering their own communities – represent a generation that has been more suckled by the state than any generation before it. They live in those urban territories where the sharp-elbowed intrusion of the welfare state over the past 30 years has pushed aside older ideals of self-reliance and community spirit. The march of the welfare state into every aspect of less well-off urban people’s existences, from their financial wellbeing to their childrearing habits and even into their emotional lives, with the rise of therapeutic welfarism designed to ensure that the poor remain ‘mentally fit’, has helped to undermine such things as individual resourcefulness and social bonding. The anti-social youthful rioters look to me like the end product of such an anti-social system of state intervention.

London's burning: a mob made by the welfare state | Brendan O'Neill | spiked (http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/10970/)

This is a rather interesting timeline as it has blackberry posts and tweet posts included in it.

London riots: August 8 as it happened - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8690403/London-riots-August-8-as-it-happened.html)

Yeah you knew that would set me off.
That's what you'd expect from the socialist former Mayor of London Livingstone.

Brings up an interesting point however . You would think with the level of taxation there would be no issues with sovereign debt. The coffers should over flow . The Brits have sunk the wealth of the nation into their Fabian visions of cradle to grave nanny state .
In doing so they destroyed their sacred identity .


London's burning: a mob made by the welfare state | Brendan O'Neill | spiked (http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/10970/)

So you found an excuse to rant against the nanny state and yet some commentators are saying that the rioters are disaffected youths, the very people marginalised and ignored by attempting to apply the principles you hold so dear. It is said to be a reaction against austerity. If so, then the Brits have joined the Greeks. But let us think for a while about those who have been pictured at the centre of the riots, sorry to mention it but they don't look very anglo-saxon-norman to me, so what we have is an outcome of the stupidity of multiculturism which has created ghettos of the disadvantaged. The welfare state didn't make this mob, migration made this mob, open borders made this mob, and you should take heed about the possibilities of this sort of thing spreading

Actually I would say to some extent the welfare state did make the mob.

There are two sectors of society that seem most inclined to protest about the austerity drive, those on benefits, and those who are working for the public sector.

It is well accepted that benefit claimants have a higher standard of living in the Uk than many low income workers. I live near an area of social housing where the majority don't work yet have houses full of high-end electrical goods and they still manage to fill the pubs on a night. Things that those of us on low incomes do without because we cannot afford them. The benefit cuts haven't even been that stringent but just the idea that they may not be able to afford all they want when they want it is justifcation enough for them to go out and take it apparently. Most people feel that the only benefit claimants with a real axe to grind are the disabled - whilst there are people who have been languising on disability allowance for years with spurious complaints there are others with real need who have been caught up in the austerity drive who are having real difficulty getting financial assistance. Somehow I don't think they are out rioting.

Welfare claimants have got used to years of comfortable living for no effort and now they are spitting the dummy when some of their treats are being threatened. And yet, almost to a one, offer them a job, and my husband experiences this regularly when seeking workers, and they say the pay isn't worth it, they are better off on benefits. Granted the influx of immigrants has created an impetus to keep wages down, but still there are plenty of us willing to work for whatever we can get.

As for the public sector, I have worked in it, and it was great to be on the gravy train. Pensions the private sector can only dream of. Holidays and pay above the average for the pay grade. These are the workers who are bitterly resisitng measures such as expecting them to make a more realistic contribution to their own pensions. Granted there are job losses too, but that also applies to the private sector, but of course the private sector don't have the clout to bring services to a halt so they go off job hunting, for whatever work they can find instead.

Nevertheless when the newspapers are filled daily with stories of bankers raking in multi-million pound bonuses, (bonuses? - for what?), stories of how 80% of new vacancies are going to immigrants, and MPs fiddling expenses to the tune of many thousands of pounds it is no great surprise if social cohesion is poor. Add to that the awareness that immigrants can move in and immediately start claiming a whole raft of benefits that many people who were born here have never availed themselves of, and would get less help in doing so should they find themselves in difficulty. Millions of pounds spent on translators to help immigrants do just that. Can't blame them for wanting to come live here really can you? But can you blame them for taking on the mantle of 'the state owes us' that is so prevalant here? There is a real sense that Joe everybody and his uncle thinks he has a right to come and live in the UK and have their needs met by the state - and the fact is that by our government laws as they stand most of them do.

Nero fiddled while Rome burned. I think the perception is that our own leaders were doing the same while London burned - though no violins were involved...

There are many genuine reasons for malcontent in the UK, but my feeling is that those who chose to express their malcontent in such a disgraceful manner are the spoilt brats that the nanny state spawned.

How much of the recent riots actually relate to this political back-drop I don't know, but I suspect that what we are seeing now had its seeds sown in the last couple of decades of utterly stupid government decisions.

Great attitude... (sarcasm font engaged)

BBC News - London rioters: 'Showing the rich we do what we want' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424)

After the decision to send police to London from elsewhere in the UK, London had a quiter night whilst riots broke out/intensified elsewhere. What a surprise... (sarcasm font still engaged).

UK riots: Sharing of police between cities 'reviewed hourly' | UK news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/10/uk-riots-police-aid-london)

QLP I think you just made my point

80% of new vacancies are going to immigrants
Didn't I say the problem was immigration and multiculturism, but what you are failing to say directly is you have too many non-british spongers and yes I do define British in an unfashionable way and not as a citizen of the empire. Have you never heard of shutting the door? According to you these "immigrants" have no reason to steal since they already have above average incomes and benefits, so then I expect that those we see on the streets are second, even third generation, comers


How much of the recent riots actually relate to this political back-drop I don't know, but I suspect that what we are seeing now had its seeds sown in the last couple of decades of utterly stupid government decisions.

I expect your problems have their root in policies which were implemented in the forties and fifties, which is a long time ago.

Don't get me wrong paraclete, I think the open-door policy on immigration and the push for mass multi-culturism has created many problems. And it was done against the wishes of the majority of the British public. However the fact is there are many jobs that are being filled by immigrant workers that unemployed whites will not take for the simple reason they get more money on benefits.

Those on the streets are likely second and third generation benefit claimaints - of all races.

I grew up in a family on benefits, with a mentally ill mother and an alcoholic father. In those days benefits meant getting enough for your basic needs. We lived in poverty, not helped by Pa spending the food money on fags and beer. It gave me quite a work ethic. Since then benefits have become so generous that they can have their fags, beer, food, holidays, and wide-screen TVs. Not much incentive to get off your butt or encourage your kids to do so is it?

I think we can all see the strands of how we came to be in this unholy mess but who the heck can see the way back out of it?

The last government created a situation where the number of people on benefits added to those on the public purse, many in spurious jobs, exceeded those working their asses off in the private sector. That gave them carte blanche to push forward their socialist/liberalist agenda. The Tories could only scrape into power by entering into an unholy alliance with the Liberal democrats so now we have a coalition government which is so busy fighting within itself that actual solutions are very thin on the ground.

Not that I have much faith that the right-wingers would do such a great job if they had an overwhelming majority. Yes, they could push further forward with regard to immigration and welfare reform but they would still spout about equal opportunities whilst giving top jobs and perks to their cronies and milking the system for all they can get. Maybe we should look even further back to where the class system evolved from the days of Feudalsim and serfdom...

It is my understanding that the right in England campaign on being better nanny state managers. That is not the solution. The people need weening off the dependency . It would be culture shock to cold turkey the addiction. But within a generation the system needs a fundamental change reducing the dependency on government while incorporating a reasonable safety net for those who need it.

What I see Ex are yobbos, mainly black, youths in hooded jackets and masks, and in my opinion the kindest thing that could be done for them is put them out of their misery. The facts speak for themselves, these are criminals, thugs and thieves, arsonists, anarchists and they should be treated to the same violence they inflict on society, a little bit of the old ultra-V..

Now I know that won't accord with your bleeding heart liberal view of life but then I'm not here to please you:D

Have to agree here, shoot them, and if their mothers start bauling shoot her too,plenty of room left here in the wicklow mountains for a few more.

Place a curfew and if your out after 10pm you better be able to answer a few questions, zero tolerance.

have to agree here, shoot em, and if their mothers start bauling shoot her too
I'm just having a chuckle at this coming from the Social Care & Youth Expert. :D

I'm just having a chuckle at this coming from the Social Care & Youth Expert. :D

The irony is not lost of me.

There are so many teens and young adults who try so hard every day to improve their lives and the lives of their families, some of the backgrounds and trauma they have experienced curls my toes its so bad, but their not out fecking rioting in the streets, they choose not to.

Ireland has the same bloody problem with the social welfare system, in some areas its generation after generation its acceptable and normal... except that its not!

There are new laws coming into place in ireland where to get a social welfare payment you must be going back to education or do community service, sitting on your arse all day is no longer an option nor acceptable.

Cull the yobs, granted you will always have a few rats in the barrel, the prisons are chock a block, so what else can we do...

It is my understanding that the right in England campaign on being better nanny state managers. That is not the solution. The people need weening off the dependency . It would be culture shock to cold turkey the addiction. But within a generation the system needs a fundamental change reducing the dependency on government while incorporating a reasonable safety net for those who need it.

Couldn't agree more. The only caveat I would add is that the privelidged classes have to realise it is in their own best interests and in the interests of a cohesive society to genuinely open up opportunities and fairness for those that are willing to work for them. The road to success needs to be based on skill, expertise, and positive attitude, not on whether you are wearing the right school tie. Social mobility in the Uk is falling and is significantly lower than in many developed countries. This is not all due to poor aspirations.

The last government introduced various schemes which were supposed to tackle social mobility but were badly thought out social engineering experiments.

For example, my own son gained a place at a top university. He was bright and worked hard and was one of the lucky few who managed it on his own merit. Two years later when my daughter was applying a scheme had been brought in whereby if you were the first in your family to go to university you would be awarded extra points so you could get in easier. The fact that her brother had worked hard meant my daughter was not eligible. How did having a hard working brother make her priviledged? Didn't matter as she got the grades anyway, but how silly.
Now universities have quotas, so have to limit the number of students from 'top colleges'. My own son won a place at a top college, again through his own merit and with no privelidged background, but if the scheme had applied earlier he could well have missed out on his hard earned university place by not being disadvantaged enough, Ie because he worked too hard. Madness.

Where politicians do acknowledge blocks to social mobilty they make totally cack-handed attempts to deal with this.

In the same way positive discrimination has been introduced.

So, you do all the 'right' things and still don't get the job. No wonder so many who are actually willing to work are feeling disenfranchised.

Disenfranchised, disadvantaged these are words we need to stop using. People are only disadvantaged by their inability to try. I was born with nothing, my parents had very little and left me no legacy but by hard work and study I have all I need. I had no one to pay my way into higher education, I paid for it myself.

The system has gone too far into providing places for those who don't appreciate them. All we have taught them is to expect to be given something because they turn up and those who think they should be allowed to smash, burn and steal because they have nothing better to do should be met with the same force we would have used on an invading army. This demonstrates how desperately western society needs a system of national service where youth is taught discipline. Where they cannot spend their time playing violent video games but must deal with real life situations, contributing to their community. I saw a UK youth worker on TV tonight saying that their society owed these youth something. From their behaviour I would say it owed them a good swift kick and one for their parents as well

Don't get me wrong, I have no time or sympathy for those who refuse to try and who feel the state owes them a living. Where I do have sympathy is for those who have all the right attributes to succeed but know that many doors will remain closed to them just because of their background, because they didn't go to the right school, although they got the right qualifications, and didn't move in the right circles. Whilst those at the bottom of the pile have a disproportionate sense of entitlement, so do those at the top. They expect to cherry pick all the plum roles for little other reason than they came from the right families and went to the right schools.

Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Run Britain, BBC Two - The Arts Desk | reviews, news, interviews (http://www.theartsdesk.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=2960:posh-and-posher-why-public-school-boys-run-britain-bbc2&Itemid=31)

To my mind the best way to motivate people is with a combination of carrot and stick. The trouble is we have stopped having the courage to use the stick, give people a generous bagful of carrots when they are not prepared to till the soil to grow them, but make sure few of the hard-toiling workers acutally get a chance in the running of the carrot farm. Even if they have the best credentials for growing carrots, if they aren't in the carrot bosses' little social circle they won't be getting into the carrot boardroom.

My parents generation had little expectation of social mobility, since they 'knew their place.' Younger people have been sold the idea that if they work hard the world is their oyster. Sadly, many of the upper echelons still have a feeling that the working classes should know their place and the masses have cottoned on to the fact that what they were sold is not quite accurate.

Politicians seem to fall into one of two camps. Either 'they are all lazy blighters who need a kick up the arse', or 'they are all poor little disadvantaged souls who just need a leg up, more help, more nannying. '

All I am calling for is a little common sense somewhere in between. Give people the incentive to work by making it less cushy not to do so and give them the desire to want to do better by making opportunities genuinely open to those capable of, and willing to, take them.

The only caveat I would add is that the privelidged classes have to realise it is in their own best interests and in the interests of a cohesive society to genuinely open up opportunities and fairness for those that are willing to work for them. The road to success needs to be based on skill, expertise, and positive attitude, not on whether you are wearing the right school tie. Social mobility in the Uk is falling and is significantly lower than in many developed countries. This is not all due to poor aspirations.

As you know ,as power is concentrated in the central government ,leadership often devolves into an oligarchy of the privileged few .
Attributed to Alexander Tytler :
Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage.

Hail Britannia ! We aren't far behind you.

Well this sums it up for me: COMMENT: Shop all the Croydon looters (From Croydon Guardian) (http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/news/localnews/9186617.COMMENT__Shop_them_all/)

As you know ,as power is concentrated in the central government ,leadership often devolves into an oligarchy of the privileged few.
Hail Britannia ! We aren't far behind you.I'd say you're already there!

Well this sums it up for me: COMMENT: Shop all the Croydon looters (From Croydon Guardian) (http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/news/localnews/9186617.COMMENT__Shop_them_all/)
Agree with that report.

Yup... for almost a quarter century every President has been Ivy League .

yup ...for almost a quarter century every President has been Ivy League .
It's less about the school they came from and more about the corporate control of your government.

Agree with that report.

Indeed. Regardless of any political debate on underlying tensions, there's just no excuse for the rioting. The fact that so many youths and even kids think this behavoiour is acceptable just makes me question whether some people should be allowed to breed...

Regardless of any political debate on underlying tensions, there's just no excuse for the rioting. The fact that so many youths and even kids think this behavoiour is acceptableHello again, Q:

It's obvious that you're watching things progress from the comfort of your home WITH a full fridge.. If you WEREN'T in such a position, your empathy might lie elsewhere.

Now, I'd LIKE to say that the needs of the disadvantaged get addressed in the NORMAL course of events... But, they DON'T. In fact, they get CUT.

After the riots, they WILL be, though. If that's what it takes to get your problems addressed, then THAT'S what it takes. I WISH it were different, but WISHING doesn't make it so.

excon

So these 'disadvantaged' have Blackberry's and presumably access to computers to create their Facebook and twitter accounts?

Hello Exy.

If it weren't for the fact that the rioters were planning their next attacks on their blackberrys (price £100-£200) whilst I was trying to text my son to see if he was safe on my £15 brick of a mobile phone my empathies might lie elsewhere.

Should I go off and loot myself a decent phone then as my wages don't run to one?

Edit - beat me to the punchline there bear lol.

So these 'disadvantaged' have Blackberry's and presumably access to computers to create their facebook and twitter accounts?Hello again, albear:

Sure. I don't know about blackberry's, but smart phones, Facebook and twitter, you betcha. What?? Because they have a phone means they're not poor?? You need to get out more.

excon

Hello again, albear:

Sure. I dunno about blackberry's, but smart phones, facebook and twitter, you betcha. What??? Because they have a phone means they're not poor???? You need to get out more.

excon

A phone? Not at all, a Blackberry and the funds to run one, yea, I don't think they're as disadvantaged as your making them out to be.

Hello again, my friends across the pond:

I'm not saying that there aren't SOME who take advantage of situations and loot just for fun. I'm not even saying some of 'em don't have blackberry's..

What I AM saying, is that the young of your city have NOTHING to do. They used to have youth clubs in the inner city's they could go to, but because of budget considerations, they got shut down. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jul/29/young-people-gangs-youth-clubs-close) The ones that stayed open tried to CHARGE the youth to enter...

Now, when you have unemployed youth, and you can KEEP THEM OCCUPIED doing stuff in a club, CLOSING the club, EVEN if you can't afford it, is like shooting yourself in the foot.

Now, I know some pinched nose politicians are going to say they HAD to do it. But, I don't think it was a good idea. You?

excon

a phone? not at all, a Blackberry and the funds to run one,Hello again, albear:

I have an Iphone. I have access to the internet, email, twitter and texting.. It's costs me $89 US per month. I think MOST people can afford that.

Blackberry's?? Hmpf... I'll bet one of those pinched nosed politicians put out that bit of nonsense.

excon

My Android phone cost $55 a month, and that includes the cell service and free apps such as Facebook and Twitter widgets.

Hello again,

Let me add this.. Rioting isn't good. Looting somebody's store ISN'T good. Burning stuff isn't good... Shooting unarmed fathers isn't good either.

The point I'm making is that these problems are SOCIETAL in nature, and NOT RACIAL. Yes, the inner cities are stocked with brown people. Ours too. But, I again say that it's a SOCIETAL problem, and NOT a racial one, as has been suggested.

excon

Hello agian, albear:

I have an Iphone. I have access to the internet, email, texting, and all my friends.. It's costs me $89 US per month. I think MOST people can afford that.

Blackberry's??? Hmpf... I'll bet one of those pinched nosed politicians put out that bit of nonsense.

excon

That's about £55 a month, you seem to be on quite the high price tarrif there, there's no way I could afford that. - even the $55 a month is too high for me.

So if a lot of these youths don't have jobs and are dissadvantaged, how are they affording to pay for luxury items?

So if alot of these youths dont have jobs and are dissadvantaged, how are they affording to pay for luxury items?
That would make for a great university research/survey project.

So if alot of these youths dont have jobs and are dissadvantaged, how are they affording to pay for luxury items?Hello again, albear:

Ok, let's say you're right. And, I do agree with you that they CAN'T afford cell phones...

Yet, they HAVE them.. So, either they're NOT disadvantaged, or they don't spend their money very well. Frankly, I'll vote for the latter.

But, in either case, so what? Are you saying that it's OK, if the truly disadvantaged riot, and they can be identified by their LACK of cell phones? Or are you saying that a wealthier class of youngsters is doing it for no reason at all except to have fun?

I'm not sure that one of those problems is any better than the other.

excon

I think that saying they are rioting because they are disadvantaged is incorrect, and yes based on reports I've heard and seen they seem to be doing it for fun, not out of boredom or having nothing to do, but it seems to me to be because of the thrill of doing something they know they shouldn't and apparently getting away with it (so far).

BBC News - London rioters: 'Showing the rich we do what we want' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424)

I think there are a few clues around:

Family on £42,000 a year benefits because they are 'better off unemployed' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/7585500/Family-on-42000-a-year-benefits-because-they-are-better-off-unemployed.html)

Average UK pay is around £20k, and that is average, not minimum.

Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: You are better off on benefits (http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/63222)

Just wanted to share the brighter side of things:

Eyewitness: Riots cleanup | World news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/picture/2011/aug/10/london-riots-cleanup-eyewitness?CMP=twt_ipd)

When I first saw this on TV I was thinking the Brits finally came to their senses and overthrew the monarchy. Wrong.

Then I thought the Brits came to their senses and got rid of the puppet PM. Wrong.

When I found out it was allegedly due to a man or girl being killed. I scratched my head in wonderment wondering if the Brits have finally lost it altogether.

Being better off on benefits. Just who's bright idea is/was that baloney? Collect free money for just breathing every day will only led to revolt by the peasants.

I thought they rioted due to the extra immigrints coming into their country going directly onto benefits. Now THAT would be something to riot over.

The sleeping Americans need to riot over the recent Debt Crisis backlash. But they won't as they consume way too much fluoride dumbing them down. Also all the antidepressants are just fluoride in pill form. Wonder why everybody is so docile in the USA? Look at the over prescribed pills for the answer.

A school assistant and a school boy both charged.

London riots: school assistant and boy, 11, among defendants in court | UK news | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/10/london-riots-school-assistant-pleads-guilty)

Guess the school dinners are worse than I realised...

They should be thankful they get them. You could understand that an eleven year old would be stupid enough to get caught up in what was going on but adults with jobs, just straight out criminals. What did that kid think he was going to do with a garbage bin? Fill it with goodies?

I'm still trying to work out why rioters cleared out a pharmacy of its stock of immodium (that's a treatment for diahorrea)...

Rioting and looting gives you a bad belly. They're stealing Imodium now! | whataprick.tv (http://whataprick.tv/2011/08/rioting-and-looting-gives-you-a-bad-belly-theyre-stealing-imodium-now/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rioting-and-looting-gives-you-a-bad-belly-theyre-stealing-imodium-now)

I'm still trying to work out why rioters cleared out a pharmacy of its stock of immodium (that's a treatment for diahorrea)...

Rioting and looting gives you a bad belly. They’re stealing Imodium now! | whataprick.tv (http://whataprick.tv/2011/08/rioting-and-looting-gives-you-a-bad-belly-theyre-stealing-imodium-now/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rioting-and-looting-gives-you-a-bad-belly-theyre-stealing-imodium-now)

Probably because they couldn't read or because it was free and thought it might be some new kind of drug to get high with. The mind of looters really makes me wonder.

It is simply wilding . They are doing it for the same reason a mob attacks people attending the Wisconsin State fair .It's the same reason cities are afraid to have sports champions .
It's the same reason joggers aren't safe here in Central Park.
Yeah it says a lot about cultural de-evolution. One can ask why in terrible hardship did we not see wilding and looting in Fukushima Daiichi .What ? They didn't want shoes from the Footlocker store ;or cell phones ,or Immodium ?

Yeah it says alot about cultural de-evolution. One can ask why in terrible hardship did we not see wilding and looting in Fukushima Daiichi .What ? They didn't want shoes from the Footlocker store ;or cell phones ,or Immodium ?

It sounds like some places need a good tsunami to clean them out once in a while. You want to know the difference. The Japanese are a disciplined hard working people and you might have noticed they don't have many "foriegners" in their midst. The UK has a situation which is explosive, even more so than other parts of Europe and this is because they have given citizenship to people who are not indigenous to the British Isles, people who have formed an underclass in a nation where class has been important. They say this isn't about race but about youth, however if you take a good look at which youth are unemployed you find some races over represented. It comes down to the UK having an immigration problem which has spawned a crime problem

This sums things up well: BBC News - The competing arguments used to explain the riots (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14483149)

you might have noticed they don't have many "foriegners" in their midst. It comes down to the UK having an immigration problem which has spawned a crime problemHello again, clete:

Your bigotry is only exceeded by your ignorance of history... May I remind you that YOUR family were FOREIGNERS once in a new country... Yes, your ancestors were brought to Australia in CHAINS, so it didn't spawn crime... It WAS the crime. So, when you view different countries immigration situation, you need to separate it from your own.

excon

Interesting details from some of the fast tracked cases : BBC News - England riots: Who are the rioters? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14489984)

Hello again, clete:

Your bigotry is only exceeded by your ignorance of history... May I remind you that YOUR family were FOREIGNERS once in a new country... Yes, your ancestors were brought to Australia in CHAINS, so it didn't spawn crime... It WAS the crime. So, when you view different countries immigration situation, you need to separate it from your own.

excon

My sense of history is much keener than yours Ex and my ancestors were not brought to Australia in chains but came of their own free will. You don't like me pointing out that these people who are at the heart of these riots aren't the true British but recent immigrants, people who were for various reasons displaced from their own land. Right now we have an immigration situation which brings numbers of displaced people here from places like Iraq, Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, Lebanon, people torn from their land and we find among them those who will behave in the same violent manner. Even when we accommodate them they will destroy the very home they have been given

Some have said these riots are the result of a society that has marginalised these people, failed to care for them, but they have a better life than many in other countries. This is why they stay and for them to rise up and destroy their surroundings means they don't belong, so whatever the British response, whether it be jail, stripping of entitlements, ejection from accommodation, fines even deportation they deserve it. We have a saying here that describes these people " out of country" and it means they have no roots.

Hello again, clete:

Oh, I know you BELIEVE your prejudice is warranted, but it's prejudice nonetheless.

excon

Prejudice? You don't know the meaning of the word Ex. I am against those who would destroy my way of life and impose their antiquated ideas upon me and I will stand with the British who similarly object to the destruction of their way of life. People like you only yell prejudice when you see the flow going against you. I doubt the British like their cities being turned into ghettos. You think that because I observe that the criminals who perpetrated these acts in the UK are largely from the black communities that I am prejudiced to say so. I also observed a video of a black woman calling on black people to stop the violence. There is no PC where I come from EX, we call a spade a spade. Was she also prejudiced? It is an observable fact throughout the world Ex that black people are overrepresented in prison populations, overrepresented in unemployment, overrepresented in violent outbursts, urban violence, criminal acts and it doesn't seem to matter what their race is, there is a mindset at work.

I have no doubt you think this fellow was prejudiced too!
http://www.news.com.au/world/london-burns-as-215-arrested-for-rioting/story-e6frfkyi-1226111341895

Hello again, clete:

It only occurs to you that the over representation you note is because of their blackness... It DOESN'T occur to you that the over representation stems from the social injustices perpetrated against the people of color throughout the world.

Have you seen the starving black kids in Somalia? I guess they deserve their fate too.

The bigotry in your mind comes from your belief that a particular people are prone to criminal acts... That's because, from a Darwinian point of view, that viewpoint is totally incredulous... Oh, yeah. I forgot. You don't believe Darwin.

Hmmm.. I wonder if there's a correlation between the bigoted of the world, and a belief in Intelligent Design... What would you say?

excon

Hello again, clete:

It only occurs to you that the over representation you note is because of their blackness... It DOESN'T occur to you that the over representation stems from the social injustices perpetrated against the people of color throughout the world.

Have you seen the starving black kids in Somalia? I guess they deserve their fate too.

The bigotry in your mind comes from your belief that a particular people are prone to criminal acts... That's because, from a Darwinian point of view, that viewpoint is totally incredulous... Oh, yeah. I forgot. You don't believe Darwin.



excon

No Ex you don't get off as easily as that I'll take your arguments one by one. Who perpetrates social injustices against black people? Well we could start in the northern hemisphere in the "land of the free" and deal with the social injustices which have existed there for centuries but you have erased it by erasing references to black people. In your vocabarly they don't exist, so no injustice there, but they are still over represented in your prisons, could this be the result of social injustice or simple lawlessness? Oh wait, in your mind we are committing an injustice by recording that statistic.

Staving black kids in Somalia are the result of the social injustice of black people towards black people or perhaps we could say islamic injustice towards black people coupled with certain weather conditions endemic to that part of the world. I recall that that nation I referred to also interferred in that nation at one time, perhaps it is your responsibility to fix the problem?

You want to discuss intelligent design and Darwinism. Darwinism says survival of the fittest so we shouldn't be helping these people. Do you believe that Ex? It is part of your Darwinist belief, isn't it? Where as those of us who take the creationist view say we should help these people. Which of us is wrong Ex? But at the same time we observe many things. Is our observation wrong? I recall recently that scientific research, you believe scientific research don't you EX? decided that certain races were in fact less intelligent than others. How they could determine this I don't know but from their lofty perch up their own fundamental orafice they pontificated thus, whereas we creationists say all people are equal, we don't say they were all intended to live in the same place or that we must provide them with a living, that is strangely enough, a view common among Darwinists.

the social injustices which have existed there for centuries but you have erased it by erasing references to black people. In your vocabarly they don't exist, so no injustice there, but they are still over represented in your prisons, Hello again, clete:

So, the social justices of CENTURY'S is wiped out because we erased references to black people in our vocabulary. Well then, making them slaves couldn't possibly piss them off...

Dude. You're smoking better stuff than I do.

excon

Dude. You're smoking better stuff than I do.

excon

Well of course I am Ex and so are many others. As part of that we devised a plan, perhaps you are familiar with it? It is called the Intervention. In our euphoric state we decided that no longer would the black people in our midst suffer disadvantage, alcoholism or ignorance. Please note that we acknowledged that they exist and could be referred to as a separate people. In order to do so we suspended the Racial Discrimination Act that had served these people so well, allowing them to descend into conditions I wouldn't keep my dog in, if I had a dog, that is. What that meant is that we could actually put foot upon their lands, send their kids to school, stop them spending their welfare on booze and dope and stop them committing certain unmentionable acts upon the person of the junior members of their society. It was our intention to stop them dying so early so they could enjoy our benevolence and live in houses above the standard of a tin shed.

Has this been a success? I have to report that despite the expenditure of billions of dollars and the dilligent work of many well intentioned people it hasn't made one iota of difference. Was our mistake that we wrongly identified the target of our benevolence, No, it was plain who they might be. In good Darwinist style we had identified them by species, sub species etc right down to their unique habitat to which they were supremely adapted. No Ex we neglected to understand that these people had a pecular mindset totally foreign to our society, they actually believed in sharing and so it was natural that they would permit us to share with them, they saw nothing unusual in taking what was not theirs, taking handouts and siting in the dust waiting for the next meal

Has this been a success? I have to report that dispite the expenditure of billions of dollars and the dilligent work of many well intentioned people it hasn't made one iota of difference.Hello again, clete:

Intentions be damned. If your citizens believed, as you do, that people of color have a propensity for crime, then it wouldn't matter HOW much money you spent...

excon

Well Ex it's true that building prisons is a growth industry here too and so we keep spending our money on high standard accommodation, it beats building new houses in out of the way places. The next time you hear of riots in our fair land be careful to note who the participants are. What it means is we haven't yet locked up enough of the right people.

Now we build that accommodation for two types of law breakers, those who think we are are not serious in expecting you ask first before you come here, and those who think their particular ancestry allows them to do anything they like, sometimes it is difficult to distinguish between the two

The Brits have decided that having attitude towards the nanny state has a consequence, you riot, smash and grab and you don't get to live in a council house as the Brits call their public housing so they have taken to speaking softly and carrying a big stick. Get out on the streets and you will stay there along with mon and dad, now that seems fair and a lot of those kids will be introduced to the razor strop. It's about time there should be a consequence to smart arse

the Brits have decided that having attitude towards the nanny state has a consequence, you riot, smash and grab and you don't get to live in a council house as the Brits call their public housing so they have taken to speaking softly and carrying a big stick. get out on the streets and you will stay there along with mon and dad, now that seems fair and a lot of those kids will be introduced to the razor strop. it's about time there should be a consequence to smart arse

That sounds like a tough stance Clete, until you realise that if the people in question are on benefits they will move to private accommodation and get their rent paid anyway.

Much fuss has been made about the recent cap on housing benefit (ie rent paid by state) of £400 a week - which is still substantially higher than average rental costs anyway. My son works in London where rents are highest, has a good position (fully qualified chartered tax advisor) with one of the country's top accountancy firms, and can afford less than half that in rent.

The cap was really only a reaction to the furore about benefit claimaints demanding, and getting, luxury housing anyway, such as this family being moved to a £2million home because they weren't happy with the 5 bed house they were given originally:

Somali asylum seeker family given £2m house... after complaining 5-bed London home was 'in poor area' | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1293730/Somali-asylum-seeker-family-given-2m-house--complaining-5-bed-London-home-poor-area.html)

Most of us would need to win the lottery to live in a house like that.

So net result of chucking them out of their council house is that the problem family gets moved onto someone else's patch at a higher cost to the tax payer. Genius...

UK riots 2011: Britain's liberal intelligentsia has smashed virtually every social value | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024690/UK-riots-2011-Britains-liberal-intelligentsia-smashed-virtually-social-value.html)

So net result of chucking them out of their council house is that the problem family gets moved onto someone else's patch at a higher cost to the tax payer. Genius...

Well of course it is genius what the politicians call a win win situation, but watch the bleeding heart of Labor plead for the victims of this aggressive policy.

$400 Pounds a week eh, now I could get a nice apartment in Double Bay for that, oh to be in Britain in the Spring time!

All this moving problem families around has a familiar ring to it, I expect some Brits migrated and brought the idea here along with their blasted roundabouts, now obligatory on every corner. Bad ideas have a habit of migrating, can we send you some? We have a rather nice line of tasers, we issue them to all police, very good kill statistics, and certainly reduces the cost of running prisons. Could we interest you in some state of the art CCTV, our pictures are so much clearer than yours? No, perhaps some Glock pistols to ensure the safety of your officers? I know these problem neighbourhoods, we have a beautiful range of used D10 Bulldozers, just 10,000 hours in Western Australia, hardly run in? Our methdology is complete redevelopment, very effective.

Hello, again, tom:


The married two-parent family, educational meritocracy, punishment of criminals, national identity, enforcement of the drugs laws and many more fundamental conventions were all smashed by a liberal intelligentsia hell-bent on a revolutionary transformation of society.Wheeww.. It's a good thing we don't have any of that going on here.

Excon

My theme of this thred is that we are not far behind ;especially with the admirers of the Eurosocialist state occupying most of the elected branch of the national government .

My theme of this thred is that we are not far behind ;especially with the admirers of the Eurosocialist state occupying most of the elected branch of the national government .Hello again, tom:

My theme, since I've been posting here, is that I prefer a socialist European state over that of an Oligarchy, which is what YOU are promoting...

excon

Hi ex
Now that's great but didn't I read you have curfews in some of your cities, you are far ahead of that socoalist European state in policing. I also observed draconian fines on parents of repeat offenders. Is this the new police state model? When will you release it for general implementation? I would like to see it implemented here

I also observed draconian fines on parents of repeat offenders. Is this the new police state model? Hello again, clete:

Care to elaborate?

excon

I expect some Brits migrated and brought the idea here along with their blasted roundabouts, now obligatory on every corner.

Ah, but have we sent you our lovely speed bumps yet?

http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2008/01/speed_bumps_kill_earth.jpg

And, have you got one of these yet?:

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/images/front_picture_library_UK/dir_447/car_photo_223812_5.jpg

You drive in one direction around the mini roundabouts and in the opposite direction around the centre.

UK riots 2011: Britain's liberal intelligentsia has smashed virtually every social value | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024690/UK-riots-2011-Britains-liberal-intelligentsia-smashed-virtually-social-value.html)


This explains why the Liberal party in Britain became a minority party.


Tut

Hello again, clete:

Care to elaborate?

excon

What not up to date with local news, maybe this didn't feature on Fox?
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/08/13/pennsylvania.curfew/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
Teens meet Mr. Curfew | Philadelphia Daily News | 08/13/2011 (http://www.philly.com/philly/news/pennsylvania/127647283.html)

Ah, but have we sent you our lovely speed bumps yet?

http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2008/01/speed_bumps_kill_earth.jpg

And, have you got one of these yet?:

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/images/front_picture_library_UK/dir_447/car_photo_223812_5.jpg

You drive in one direction around the mini roundabouts and in the opposite direction around the centre.

Yes we have some lovely speed bumps here, so that's where they came from, we also have structures described as cushions and some rather weird things that could only be described as infinity circles because that is how long it takes to work out what it is you are supposed to do. I would like to send you some lovely pictures but I couldn't find any.

Ah that's why the troops weren't called out, they were already busy looting:

UK riots: Liam Bretherton in Manchester court for trying to sell looted £1k guitar | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2025469/UK-riots-Liam-Bretherton-Manchester-court-trying-sell-looted-1k-guitar.html)

"But what we know for sure is that in large parts of the country this was just pure criminality.

So as we begin the necessary processes of inquiry, investigation, listening and learning: let’s be clear.

These riots were not about race: the perpetrators and the victims were white, black and Asian.

These riots were not about government cuts: they were directed at high street stores, not Parliament.

And these riots were not about poverty: that insults the millions of people who, whatever the hardship, would never dream of making others suffer like this.

No, this was about behaviour…

…people showing indifference to right and wrong...

...people with a twisted moral code...

...people with a complete absence of self-restraint."
(David Cameron 8/15/11)

And just like after 9/11 it will be used as an excuse to infringe on civil liberties, to extend the powers of the security services and for what after all might be a one off