I need some advice. I have a friend that doesn't believe in God. She grew up Catholic but doesn't really believe in God anymore. She says that she never really actually ever did. She says that she wants to believe in God but she just can't wrap her mind around the idea of Him. She can't make her self imagine what He is like or how anything He did is possible or anything so she can't believe in something that she can't fathom. (I hope that makes sense.) She says that its even sometimes hard to believe the bible cause its just like a bunch of stories. How can I help her to believe? How can I make God more real to her?
Please help.
Thanks

she just can't wrap her mind around the idea of Him.
Neither can the rest of us.

She can't make her self imagine what He is like or how anything He did is possible or anything so she can't believe in something that she can't fathom.
That's what faith is -- believing even in the face of impossibility.

the bible cause its just like a bunch of stories
They are stories about people who didn't believe or thought they couldn't believe or didn't want to believe, but something happened and faith came into their hearts.

How can I help her to believe? How can I make God more real to her?
Be a good example. Be kind to others. Treat animals respectfully. Don't make fun of anyone. Pick up trash you see lying on the ground. Help people who need help -- open doors, carry things, wave to babies and little children, visit an older person in your neighborhood and listen to stories about the olden days, go to church and Sunday School, don't use bad language or hang around people who do, get a kids' Bible story book (simply written with nice pictures) from the library and read it together with her, then talk about what you read. Each story will have a major truth. See if the two of you can figure it out.

Any God worthy of the name is going to be beyond our comprehension, because if he's just a being like us, what good is he? The Bible is an attempt to describe the indescribable, because our language will never be able to give us an accurate picture. It's the finite trying to describe the infinite, which just doesn't work. So instead we have stories of how God interacts with people. The stories reassure us that God cares about us, loves us, and wants a relationship with us.

My question to you is why is this so important to you. Why are you concerned whether she believes or not? If she is asking you for help to believe, the only thing you can do is explain what faith is and how your faith makes you feel better.

If she isn't asking for your help, then don't push your beliefs on her.

OK well maybe I wasn't entirely truthful when I asked the question. The friend is actually me. I'm ashamed that I don't believe in god cause I was raised catholic and was involved in a lot of activities in college and all my friends are really religious, but I'm not. I more or less just go through the motions cause its what your suppose to do. I can't wrap my mind around the idea of god and all that he could have done enough to actually believe in him. Like I can't imagine something like that. Like all the stuff just seems more like stories to me. Like you know when we were little and we believed in santa clause, and he was the guy that brang us presents on christmas if we were good, well sometimes that's almost what it seems like with god. That its all a big story. Kind of like a story to try to make everyone be better people. And I want to believe in god... but I just can't make myself.

And now that I've made myself sound like a horiable person, especially on a religious forum, I hope that what I said kind of makes sense and someone can give me some advice as what I should do or help me in any way

Thanks

Why do you think you sound like a horrible person? You are not the first person who has grown up to question that faith is enough to believe in a god. And you won't be the last.

Personally, I think you are a rational, intelligent person who has decided that you can't accept something on faith alone. That you need more than just the possibility and promise of salvation, afterlife etc. to believe. This is NOTHING to be ashamed of. There are many people who believe as you do just as there are many who find comfort in having faith in the alleged word of god.

i want to believe in god...but i just can't make myself.
That's the beauty of faith! None of us have "made" ourselves believe. God loves us, all of us, and finds a way to come into each heart.

Maybe your asking about this is God's way of coming into your heart because "doubts are the ants-in-the-pants of faith." Doubts and questions are good. Try what I had suggested -- help other people in various ways and also read some of those Bible stories to find ONE truth in each one.

First we can understand what God is, or what he looks like or how he operates, He has appeared as smoke, as fire, as shadow and more. Also one could not even start accepting the bible if one does not even think God exists.

But part of the issue is that we have to stop trying to out think God, to try and find a box he has to fit in. He can't and won't fit into a model of anything we can understand.

You don't sound like a horrible person.

If you're just going through the motions then you're only doing yourself injustice.

Believing in God doesn't make you a good person. Not believing doesn't make you a bad person. As long as you live your life the best you can, are kind to people, do your best to be a good human being, that's what counts.

If believing in God is important to you then explore other possibilities, other religions. Maybe it's just Catholicism that's standing in your way. Maybe another religion will make more sense to you. If not, then don't be so hard on yourself. You're not alone. There are many that don't believe in the bible or God and they're still wonderful people that go on to live wonderful lives. :)

You I'm a good person, but what if there is a god(cause there probably is, otherwise so many people are praying to no one and going to church for no reason) and then I go and don't believe in him(cause I'm dumb and can't just accept the fact that I just need to believe in something I cant), then there turns out to believe a heaven and hell, I don't want to have to spend eternity in hell just cause I was stuborn or something and didn't believe in god

I believe that any god that might exist will judge a person on how they lived, not how they worship. In my opinion any god that requires someone to worship a specific way to get salvation is not a just god.

Yes there are many people who believe but there are also many different beliefs, if there is only one god, why would so many different religions exist?

So you need to decide what is more important to you!

You're not a horrible person. You're a normal person. We all have questions at various times. I've come close to losing my faith, but two things kept me from it: first, there has to be a creator of some kind. All this had to get here somehow. Regression only goes so far, and eventually you have to get to the so-called "uncaused cause." There are lots of potential rational arguments against that, but all they do is push the question further back. I figure, may as well save time and go to the uncaused cause directly.

Second, history supports the likelihood that Jesus of Nazareth died and rose again. Other explanations of the event just don't hold water. The only reasonable explanation that takes all the facts into account is the one that defies explanation: it happened. And that event has far-reaching implications. Those can be worked out over time, but those two facts kept me holding on until I came out the other end of the crisis.

They may or may not work for you; the key is to find your own anchor to hold on to. You can get through this and come out with your faith stronger. One major question to ask yourself is: WHY do the stories etc. give you so much trouble? What is it about them, or are there particular ones that you have problems with, that sort of thing. Getting to the "why" of things goes a long way toward helping you deal with them. And we'll help if we can.

stacky1: "...there turns out to believe a heaven and hell, i dont want to have to spend eternity in hell just cause i was stuborn or something and didnt believe in god"

OK stacky1, here's my two cents worth. I find the expression "believing in God" less than helpful. It's the kind of phrase that children use. Believing that God exists, rather than believing He doesn't exist simply makes one a theist rather than an atheist. And don't get me wrong, the people on this site are very religious. That's the result of their believing in God, in Jesus, etc.

Now about hell. The correct meaning of 'hell' is simply the grave. Not eternal torture.

About faith. To escape death we need the kind of faith that God gives. Just deciding to believe because I want to go to heaven is not the answer.

ok well maybe i wasnt entirely truthful when i asked the question. the friend is actually me. im ashamed that i dont believe in god cause i was raised catholic and was involved in alot of activities in college and all my friends are really religious, but im not.It's OK to feel that way - that how I was when I was young. As I grew up, met people from around the world, got a great education, I found I didn't need religion and that many of those that profess to be religious were no better than the non-religious types. I decided that I was agnostic and it lived my life as I see fit. Please don't beat yourself up around the guilt issue, that isn't healthy, plus those who give you grief about your decision need to accept you as you are, as a person not a member of a group. Good luck.

Stacky,

The bible says that even the demons believe in God and tremble. Believing in a creator is a start but it is what you believe about God and who you believe God is that counts.

The only way we ever come to God is by Faith. And the Bible says faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. Pick up the Bible and read it, or find a good ministry to listen to. It will increase your faith.

God loves you and wants you to grow, what your doing is not the "wrong" thing, its just another step to becoming a growing christain. Seek out fellow christians, pray for direction from god, you'll see a change.
And yes, as Classyt says, "The only way we ever come to God is by Faith."
If you question it too much, it just slows you down

Hello,

Show your friend that such thing as a camera, computer or a telephone had to have an intelligent maker, how much more would our eyes, brains and ears need a far superior intelligent maker.

Ps. 19:1: “The heavens are declaring the glory of God; and of the work of his hands the expanse is telling.�
Ps. 104:24: “How many your works are, O Jehovah? All of them in wisdom you have made. The earth is full of your productions.�
Rom. 1:20: “His invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world's creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made.�


The Universe alone gives witness to a Creator. Who holds the sun just the right distance from the earth, so the earth and we don't burn up?

Peace.
Hope 12

Have you LOOKED at other religions? Have you researched other belief systems?

Why are you pushing yourself to believe in a SPECIFIC god? Trying to MAKE yourself believe is just silly--either you do or you don't.

Would you push someone into believing in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy if they didn't? Would you push yourself into believing in Santa Clause or the Tooth Fairy?

Well, why are you forcing yourself to believe in God?

I think what you need to do is get out there and find out what you can about your own religion and about all the other religions out there, and then see what you actually DO believe and don't believe, and decide from there what you should do.


And don't get me wrong, the people on this site are very religious. That's the result of their believing in God, in Jesus, etc.

And just want to point out that being very religious isn't linked to believing in God and Jesus. Some of us believe in Allah or Astarte or Buddha or Shiva, or Cernanos or Diana, and we're JUST as religious as those that believe in the Christian God and Jesus.

How about answering the OP's question, and taking the theological debate to another thread, please?

I will say this ONE LAST TIME.

Take your theological debates to a Members Discussions thread.

THIS thread is to answer the OP's question.

If you can't stick to THAT topic, I WILL delete your posts--just like I already have cleaned some of them up.

Thank you.

ok well maybe i wasnt entirely truthful when i asked the question. the friend is actually me. im ashamed that i dont believe in god cause i was raised catholic and was involved in alot of activities in college and all my friends are really religious, but im not. i more or less just go through the motions cause its what ur suppose to do. i can't wrap my mind around the idea of god and all that he could have done enough to actually believe in him. like i can't imagine something like that. like all the stuff just seems more like stories to me. like u know when we were little and we believed in santa clause, and he was the guy that brang us presents on christmas if we were good, well sometimes thats almost what it seems like with god. that its all a big story. kind of like a story to try to make everyone be better people. and i want to believe in god...but i just can't make myself.

and now that ive made myself sound like a horiable person, especially on a religious forum, i hope that what i said kinda makes sense and someone can give me some advice as what i should do or help me in any way

thanks

Hi Stacky,
I can't wrap my mind around the idea of God either, but believe it or not, that's a good thing. A being big and transcendent enough to have created all this, including you and me, is going to be beyond my finite comprehension. But, regardless of what the science-only types try to tell us, all this had to get here somehow. One of the basic rules of physics is that, from nothing, you get nothing. So the universe can't just have spontaneously appeared out of nothing. We can see mechanisms, like the Big Bang and all that, but none of it tells us where the original singularity came from or anything else. The only explanation is that somebody or something put it there. Where did that being come from? As I said, it doesn't matter. We're answerable to our creator, and that's all. That's what counts.

Beyond that, we really can't give you much. I understand why you're having a problem. But as Fr. Chuck said, the best thing to do is put aside any preconceived notions of what you think God should be like, and start looking around to understand as much as you can about what he/she/it is like. Too often we're tempted to create God in our own image, so to speak; "a loving God wouldn't do this, that or the other thing," that sort of thing. "Why doesn't God do something about X?" Answer: I don't know. He's beyond my comprehension. But he has to exist; there's no way around it. That gives you a starting point on which to build a viable faith that can hold up under scrutiny.

And no, you're not a horrible person. You're not even a bad person. You're a normal person just like the rest of us. Take comfort in that.

Hope this helps.

*I* removed the advertising posts, and anything referring to them.

We don't allow advertising at AMHD.

O.K. can I post link's to other sites where people can get information?

O.K., can I post link's to other sites where people can get information?As long as no one is required to pay for anything.

Thank You!

Please go to this link:http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=9&article=2106

This should give you scientific proof of a creator! Yes it's FREE!

Please go to this link:Apologetics Press - God and the Laws of Thermodynamics: A Mechanical Engineer?s Perspective (http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=9&article=2106)

This should give you scientific proof of a creator! Yes it's FREE!Can you give us a short synopsis in your own words what that scientific proof shows? It's a rather long block of text.

Please go to this link:Apologetics Press - God and the Laws of Thermodynamics: A Mechanical Engineer?s Perspective (http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=9&article=2106)

This should give you scientific proof of a creator! Yes it's FREE!

There is NO scientific proof of a creator. There are factual indications that lead some people to believe in a creator but nothing that constitutes scientific proof. One can prove gravity by dropping an object and observing that it falls. But there being a sentient creator is an issue of faith, not scientific proof.

So please don't waste our time with links to sites that pretend to offer proof of something that cannot prove.

If you stay within the bounds of science, and find the "Laws Of Thermaldynamics" to be true; it only further proves that something outside of these laws acted and thus created everything from nothingness. If you use logic. You can also see it's easier to have faith in God, than to believe or have faith that everything came from nothingness.

If you use logic. If you don't know the answer to something and you immediately attribute it to a god that's not science - that's living like the ancient romans and greeks who attributed a god to every event they didn't understand.

And I'll go back to the static argument against the "created it from nothingness" point:

If it was NOTHINGNESS, who created the Creator? You can't have a Creator that "always existed" and then deny that the laws of nature "always existed" too. If ONE can exist prior to the other, then the OTHER can exist prior to the other as well.

So.. if you believe a Creator has ALWAYS existed, you have to allow for the belief that the Universe itself has ALWAYS existed. If the Universe was created, then you have to allow for the idea that the Creator was created.

Neither is FACT. BOTH are BELIEF

Where did it all come from? How did it happen?

I'm not a scientist, I admit, but I am very hopeful that there's an afterlife in which I will be able to learn the greatest mysteries of the Universe from much more qualified beings than exist in our mortal world.

If not, then I'll just die a romanced girl who always prayed for something more-and ultimately I'll never know the difference.

If not, then I'll just die a romanced girl who always prayed for something moreWhy? Are you not having any fun now? :(

Why? Are you not having any fun now? :(

Oh that's not what I meant. I meant I hope that I get to find out all the answers someday and I pray that after I die I will.

I'm having an absolute blast right now! Living it up mortal style ;)

Living it up mortal style ;)
That's all you really need. :)

If you use logic. ...

The only logic here is the Holmesian logic, that 'if you eliminate all other possibilities, what's left has to be the answer'. The problem here is you can't eliminate all other possibilities.

I'm a deist. I do believe that some intelligent force created the Universe for the reasons you cite. But I don't believe that intelligence is watching over us guiding our lives or waiting for our deaths to reward us for living a good life etc. I so nothing concrete to support that.

Can you give us a short synopsis in your own words what that scientific proof shows? It's a rather long block of text.

Hi NK

This is my take on the first bit.

The argument firstly centres on two scientific principles, i.e the first and second laws of thermodynamics. The principle being explored here is that within any closed system energy will always remain constant. The example given was burning a piece of wood. Energy is not created and/or destroyed in the process. Provided we don't throw petrol on the fire, it will work out that the amount of energy stored in the wood will be equal to the amount of heat energy given off.

The argument in relation to the first law seems to be centred on the idea that the universe cannot function as a closed system in its very early states of development. In other words, the universe could have only come into being if there was some one or something creating an 'input' from outside the system.

This is a pretty good argument, but like any theory it is not ironclad. The problem is that the first law applies to a closed system. No one know if the beginning universe was a closed system. The other possibility, is that the early universe was an open system. In other words, open to another system. No one knows how or even if the first law applied in those early stages.

Until there is some type of agreement about how quantum mechanics applies to the early universe then anything said on both sides of the debate is pretty much speculation.

Tut

God has always existed. He never had a beginning. Also, the theory that the universe has always existed, go against the second law of thermaldydamics.

God has always existed.
Once again this is a belief. As I mentioned just because you don't have an answer for an observation is not a proof that a god exists. See my previous response to you.

Once again this is a belief. As I mentioned just because you don't have an answer for an observation is not a proof that a god exists. See my previous response to you.

You are correct. A better more scientific postulation would be that God exists outside of time as we know it. But again, this is not a proof. Thing is, as you know, arguments from silence always cut both ways. Not having an answer for an observation doesn't prove that a god exists, but it also doesn't prove that a god doesn't exist.

As I already said, assuming the God who made this universe had a creator of his/her/its own, the significance of that is moot for practical purposes. If there's a creator who made me, then I'm answerable to that creator for what I do with my life. Whether that God had a creator of its own doesn't matter, because I'm answerable to my creator, not God's. So when we get down to brass tacks, speculation about where God came from is pointless and distracting from the real issue.

Thing is, as you know, arguments from silence always cut both ways. Not having an answer for an observation doesn't prove that a god exists, but it also doesn't prove that a god doesn't exist.On that we agree. But you wrote "This should give you scientific proof of a creator! (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/2795610-post26.html)" and the writer of the article postulated that as well. So you kind of contradicted yourself there.

Not having an answer for an observation doesn't prove that a god exists, but it also doesn't prove that a god doesn't exist.

I'm right there with you that the mystery makes me inclined to believe rather than not believe.

But you have to (or should) accept that those with more scientific thinking patterns or inclined to logical deduction don't think the same way.

"Cannot Disprove"="Necessarily Is True" isn't the way that science works. The scientific method would break down using that process. Do I personally think it's a rigid and boring way of thinking? Sure. But I am grateful for all that HAS been discovered and uncovered via science.

Trust me, I used to argue it all the time with Atheists who asked me to PROVE my God. I used to say "You DISPROVE it!" Now I understand how that's not really a reasonable rebuttle. Not that their original request is very productive either.

Some people are inclined to believe in something unprovable. Others aren't. Shouldn't that be okay?

Where it gets even MORE fun is the "My god is real, but YOURS is fake" argument.

OBVIOUSLY there is no proof that anyone's god is the ONLY god, assuming that there IS a god to begin with. But there are quite a few circular arguments that try to prove that God or YHWH or Zeus or Allah or whoever is the ONLY god and that everyone else is WRONG and EVIL and is going to HELL because of it.

What kills me is that the same people that believe so vehemently can't understand how someone else believes in their own god so vehemently---and they're the SAME people who don't understand that we will NEVER have peace in this world until they admit that their god is the only god for THEM. NOT for everyone--just for them. How many wars could be averted if EVERYONE would just admit that their god is not everyone's god?

On that we agree. But you wrote "This should give you scientific proof of a creator! (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/2795610-post26.html)" and the writer of the article postulated that as well. So you kind of contradicted yourself there.

That was actually sawsall02, not me. But I forgive you ;)

That was actually sawsall02, not me. But I forgive ;)You're right of course, my apologies.

southamerica,
Sure, I have no problem with people wanting to believe a different way. But my usual response to those who say "I would have see proof" is "How much proof would it take?" The subtle answer inherent in most of the answers I get is "Just a little bit more than you or anybody else might be able to come up with." If we somehow managed to stick God in a lab and do repeatable empirical tests on him, there would always be those who claimed the tests were faked. That's why I don't even bother trying to support, cite or even find proofs. I go with probabilities, nothing more. If others see those probabilities in a different way, cool. The only time I will push my beliefs is when I'm asked, or when someone else brings the subject up, as in a thread like this. And even then I'll do my best to remain respectful (not always successful, but I'll try).

Now to this:

Where it gets even MORE fun is the "My god is real, but YOURS is fake" argument.

OBVIOUSLY there is no proof that anyone's god is the ONLY god, assuming that there IS a god to begin with. But there are quite a few circular arguments that try to prove that God or YHWH or Zeus or Allah or whoever is the ONLY god and that everyone else is WRONG and EVIL and is going to HELL because of it.

What kills me is that the same people that believe so vehemently can't understand how someone else believes in their own god so vehemently---and they're the SAME people who don't understand that we will NEVER have peace in this world until they admit that their god is the only god for THEM. NOT for everyone--just for them. How many wars could be averted if EVERYONE would just admit that their god is not everyone's god?

The answer to your question, as often as not, is simple logic: a thing can't be X and not-X at the same time. Certain views of God just contradict each other. The Jewish God is a single entity and a unified whole; the Christian God is a single God who manifests in three persons. Those are contradictory. In the Christian view, Jesus of Nazareth is one of those persons. In Islam, he isn't. Those are contradictory. In the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition there's one God; in several eastern traditions there's more than one, perhaps even a whole bunch. They can't all be right, any more than you can be a human and a rabbit at the same time depending on who's looking at you.

Speaking as a Christian, I believe those other views of God/gods are wrong. There's no good way around it without being internally contradictory. The peaceful solution to the problem is not admitting that God might be something different for the Hindu than he is for me; the solution is both me and the Hindu agreeing to respect each other's viewpoint, even though he thinks I'm wrong and I think he's wrong. In other words, agree to disagree, now let's go play a round of golf or something instead of fighting. If we could all learn to do that, we might have a certain amount of peace in the world. The answer isn't changing God, but changing ourselves.

dwashbur--

Sure, agreeing to disagree works FINE--if you leave religion in the realm of religion and keep it out of the secular world.

But when RELIGION is what pushes laws into existance--whether that law is that a woman is stoned to death because she talked to a man outside of her family or the law is that gays cannot marry because the Bible said so--that's when peace is disrupted.

The answer IS changing ourselves--but the change means accepting that YOUR god (or MY goddess, if you prefer) can not and should not dictate how EVERYONE should live. After all, I don't want to have to wear a veil and clothing that covers me from head to toe--yet in some parts of the world, RELIGION dictates a LAW that I must do so.

When we can accept that any god's word is law within the religion, and YOU are free to live your daily life by those laws dictated by your religion but do not try to make them the laws of your country (or the world!), THEN we can live in peace.

But until we can accept that some people believe in gay marriage (for example) and some people don't, and the ONLY way to dictate whether it should be legal should be based on SECULAR reasons, and NEVER on RELIGIOUS reasons--well, we'll always have wars, and it will always be about religion.

PS---I want to point out that I was responding to you, dwashbur, but the "you" in my post was meant to be generic.

I re-read after posting and it looks a little like I'm pointing fingers, and I absolutely did not intend my post to come across that way.

My apologies if it was taken that way.

History is replete with other reasons for wars, but I'll let that pass. All in all, I agree with you. There are certain "universals" that span most religions, that deal with things like murder, theft, a few others. But when it gets down to what people can wear, who they can marry, how long their hair can be, and that sort of thing, yes, that's going too far. It's especially true in a pluralistic society like we have in America.

Some of those countries that require veils and all that, though, have those laws because the people affected embrace them. What do you suggest in that case? And if they bring those practices - or laws, to them - to a different country, what's our attitude to be? Example: my next door neighbor's wife wears a burka whenever she goes outside. To me it looks ridiculous, not to mention sweltering depending on the temperature outside, but to her it's a requirement. Sometimes I see women in that position and I want to grab their husbands by the collar and say "Dude, you're in AMERICA! Learn a little flexibility!" But that would be rather asinine, agreed? In their religious tradition it's something they have to do. So I keep my nose out of it, and just give my pleasant greetings when I see them.

Now, if they came over to my place and started telling my daughters that they have to wear those things too, then we might have a problem.

I do believe I have descended into rambling, so I'll stop now.


dwashbur--

Sure, agreeing to disagree works FINE--if you leave religion in the realm of religion and keep it out of the secular world.

But when RELIGION is what pushes laws into existance--whether that law is that a woman is stoned to death because she talked to a man outside of her family or the law is that gays cannot marry because the Bible said so--that's when peace is disrupted.

The answer IS changing ourselves--but the change means accepting that YOUR god (or MY goddess, if you prefer) can not and should not dictate how EVERYONE should live. After all, I don't want to have to wear a veil and clothing that covers me from head to toe--yet in some parts of the world, RELIGION dictates a LAW that I must do so.

When we can accept that any god's word is law within the religion, and YOU are free to live your daily life by those laws dictated by your religion but do not try to make them the laws of your country (or the world!), THEN we can live in peace.

But until we can accept that some people believe in gay marriage (for example) and some people don't, and the ONLY way to dictate whether or not it should be legal should be based on SECULAR reasons, and NEVER on RELIGIOUS reasons--well, we'll always have wars, and it will always be about religion.

Hi all,

Here is a very good website that proves God exists, in which I stumbled across.

Proofthatgodexists.com

P.S. sorry, I don't know how to highlight this site so you can just click on it. I'm a little computer illiterate.

Hi all,

Here is a very good website that proves God exists, in which I stumbled across.

proofthatgodexists.comWow, one of the most frustrating websites I've ever seen, you click on buttons that bring you back to the same place all the time. Not sure what that proves.

That link doesn't bring up a website, it says the domain is for sale.

Am I doing something wrong?

Not sure what that proves.
Maybe: Desire to prove God exists =/= Good web developer.

That's my attempt at a "not equal to" sign.

Hi all,

Here is a very good website that proves God exists, in which I stumbled across.

proofthatgodexists.com

P.S. sorry, I don't know how to highlight this site so you can just click on it. I'm a little computer illiterate.

Sorry, but there is no concrete irrefutable proof that God exists. Any attempts to do so have to be based, at least, in part, on faith in the Bible. One can present arguments and logic all day long, but it still boils down to a matter of faith.

How did you come to that conclusion?

Sawsall, how do you find any "proof" on that site? It's just a bunch of ads.

That's what faith is all about. There is no proof that God exists.

You should read the "Quotes" page, it's totally geared to the fanatically adherent, not to a site that is trying to prove that god exists. Some of the quotes are actually offensive to those who don't share the same faith.

Try again, Wondergirl; You must have been on the wrong site. There are no ads.[URL="proofthatgodexists.org"]

Or do a Yahoo search, It's the link at top of page.

How did you come to that conclusion?

If are thought's are RANDOM proccesses, how can you come to ANY conclusion?

Hi all,

Here is a very good website that proves God exists, in which I stumbled across.

proofthatgodexists.com
No, I was not wrong. You were. I used the link you gave. Now you are saying it is dot org, not dot com -- big difference.

That site's conclusion that God exists is that you first have to be a Christian:

"The argument is that you must borrow from the Christian worldview, and a God who makes universal, immaterial, unchanging laws possible in order to prove anything.

This type of logical proof deals with 'transcendentals' or 'necessary starting points,' and the proof is called a 'transcendental proof.' Any contrary view to the God of Christianity being the necessary starting point for rationality is reduced to absurdity. You have to assume God in order to argue against Him. Only the Christian worldview can logically support rationality."

Sorry Wondergirl, I was wrong it is: proofthatgodexists.org

If are thought's are RANDOM proccesses, how can you come to ANY conclusion?Thoughts are not random. I made the thought and came to a conclusion. Is it not the same for you?

Correct!

Thus, if you are not a Christian, there is no proof of God nor can anyone prove there is a God.

You have to be a Christian first -- which makes the whole exercise on the site stupid and worthless.

In other words, the site owner is preaching to the choir and not proving anything.

It is unnerving and ironic that one of the buttons sets a fallacious argument about molesting children for fun is morally wrong given the unsavoury reputation of some priests.

Thus, if you are not a Christian, there is no proof of God nor can anyone prove there is a God.

You have to be a Christian first -- which makes the whole exercise on the site stupid and worthless.

In other words, the site owner is preaching to the choir and not proving anything.

That site reminds me of Bob Harrington's old argument for why he believes in God: "Because I want to."

That first part with the various buttons about absolute truth is so incredibly stupid I couldn't get any further. You're not helping your case, sawsall. If this kind of gobbledygook is good enough for you, fine. But some of our skeptic friends on this board tend to think a bit deeper than that. I understand what they're trying to say, but they're doing a lousy job of it.

Also, from that site --

"Nobody needs arguments for the existence of God. Nobody needs proof that God exists. The Bible teaches that those who claim that God does not exist are merely suppressing what they already know to be true.

Contrary to how it may appear, this website is in no way trying to prove that God exists."

Is this site owner related to Harold Camping?

Wait---I believe that *A* god exists.

I just don't believe that it is the CHRISTIAN God.

So---I'm denying it because I'm not Christian? What a load of carp!

This is why I hate arguing with Christians about it. They can "prove" that their god exists, but only if I actually believe that their proofs aren't make-believe too. It all comes down to "I'm right and you're wrong" with too many of them, with nothing but their own personal beliefs to back it up.

Sorry--someone in the 2nd century "proved" that the Earth was the center of the universe, too--using some of the same kinds of arguments. That kind of "proof" sucks, frankly, and is taken apart by the first person who actually thinks for themselves rather than being told what to think by a religious leader.

Wait---I believe that *A* god exists.

I just don't believe that it is the CHRISTIAN God.

So---I'm denying it because I'm not Christian? What a load of carp!

This is why I hate arguing with Christians about it. They can "prove" that their god exists, but only if I actually believe that their proofs aren't make-believe too. It all comes down to "I'm right and you're wrong" with too many of them, with nothing but their own personal beliefs to back it up.

Sorry--someone in the 2nd century "proved" that the Earth was the center of the universe, too--using some of the same kinds of arguments. That kind of "proof" sucks, frankly, and is taken apart by the first person who actually thinks for themself rather than being told what to think by a religious leader.

Speaking as a Christian, and a fairly conservative one at that, I have to agree with you. Most of the arguments are, in a word, stupid. There are much better ones, but too many self-appointed apologists either don't take the time or don't have the gray matter to grasp and interact with them. Instead, they take the "easy" road, a la this lame website. I'd be glad to discuss with you how I get from "a" god to the God of Christianity, and I promise to at least pretend to have a brain :D

I'd be glad to discuss with you how I get from "a" god to the God of Christianity, and I promise to at least pretend to have a brain :D
I'd LOVE to see and be part of such a discussion! Is there a place on this site to have it?

I'd LOVE to see and be part of such a discussion! Is there a place on this site to have it?

Members Discussions :)

Members Discussions :)

I'm game, are you?

Members Discussions :)
I was hoping my comment could encourage you and Dave to start such a discussion. If I start it, no one would show up.

I show up to them when I see them and have a chance to respond--most of the time I'm at work when I'm on AMHD, so it all depends on how busy I am.

I'm game, are you?
Yay!!

I show up to them when I see them and have a chance to respond--most of the time I'm at work when I'm on AMHD, so it all depends on how busy I am.

I can dig that. How about you start a thread when you get a chance, and just let me know how to find it, and we can go from there? My schedule is a lot more open, so I can adapt to yours as necessary.

That site's conclusion that God exists is that you first have to be a Christian:

"The argument is that you must borrow from the Christian worldview, and a God who makes universal, immaterial, unchanging laws possible in order to prove anything.

This type of logical proof deals with ‘transcendentals’ or ‘necessary starting points,’ and the proof is called a ‘transcendental proof.’ Any contrary view to the God of Christianity being the necessary starting point for rationality is reduced to absurdity. You have to assume God in order to argue against Him. Only the Christian worldview can logically support rationality."

Hi WG


Most transcendental arguments use the starting point of experience. On this basis there does not have to be a 'necessary' or logical starting point so long as you are trying to deduce something from empirical facts.
In other words, there can be any number of starting points concerning how we think, judge or have experiences generally.

I am not sure what you mean by," Only the Christian worldview can logically support rationality" Taken at face value I would disagree with this statement.


Tut

Hi WG

I am not sure what you mean by," Only the Christian worldview can logically support rationality" Taken at face value I would disagree with this statement.

Tut
Tut, please read the entire thread. All of what I quoted was from the web site that had been posted by someone else. They are NOT my thoughts or beliefs. I stated that I found the logic on that site to be absurd.

Tut, please read the entire thread. All of what I quoted was from the web site that had been posted by someone else. They are NOT my thoughts or beliefs. I stated that I found the logic on that site to be absurd.


Hi Wondergirl,

That's what happens when I jump into the middle of a conservation.

My apologies.

Tut

The God of the Bible, is THEE GOD! Genisis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavans and the earth.

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth,"Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

The God of the Bible, is THEE GOD! Genisis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavans and the earth.

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth,"Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Saved from what?

Eternal punishment, because God is JUST!

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the World God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and devine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Oh OK - good luck!

If Biblical creation were not true, we could not know anything!

John 3:16 "For God so loved the World that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

If Biblical creation were not true, we could not know anything!But I don't believe in biblical creation and I know a lot of things - how can that be?

The whole story of Job convinced me that God is not actually a JUST God.

1. How did you come to know things?
2. How do YOU know what is JUST?

1. How did you come to know things?Education and experience. How do you come to know things?

Did you come to know thing's through logic? I did, because GOD CREATED LOGIC!

Think about it. Should we use your logic or God's?

Ok, if you say so, it makes no difference to me.

Did you come to know thing's through logic? I did, because GOD CREATED LOGIC!

Think about it. Should we use your logic or God's?

And we're back to the original argument:

Who created GOD? MY logic says that SOMETHING had to create Him. You cannot create something from nothing.

Your missing my point! You don't have any logic, God created logic!

If your answer to everything is "God created it" then there really is no option for discussion is there?

No... you are missing MY point.

I don't BELIEVE in your god.

Therefore, He doesn't exist.

If he doesn't exist, he didn't create ANYTHING.

The God of the Bible, is THEE GOD! Genisis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavans and the earth.

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth,"Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Oh please. Save us from proselytizers! So, anyone who doesn't worship the way YOU believe they should will not be saved. You just damned the majority of the world's people. Christianity, while the largest religion, still makes up only about 1/3 of the world's people (Major Religions Ranked by Size (http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html)). This is your definition of a "just" God?

And, if your God is so omnipotent and created logic, as you claim, then why would he not set things up so that more people would worship him? Why would he make it so hard to believe?

Look, I'm not saying that Christians haven't got it right. What I'm saying is I don't know, just as Christians don't know for a fact. So believe what you want, I am happy that you find comfort in your beliefs. But please don't presume to impose your beliefs on others. Please don't presume to tell me I won't be "saved", just because I have chosen not to believe in Jesus Christ.

If our brain activity is based on RANDOM chemical reactions, assuming we EVOLVED from nothingness! Based on this THEORY we could not have ANY LOGIC, or REASONING! Only if we were intelligently designed could we have these things. My gosh, you couldn't even talk,walk,see,hear,taste,smell,or even LIVE for that matter! If we didn't have a creator that made these thing's!

Sawsall--you don't get it.

You are NOT going to convince me, because to me your logic is completely flawed. It's like saying the world is at the center of the universe because everything obviously revolves around the earth.

And I have never believed that there was EVER "nothingness" in the universe. I believe that SOMETHING has always existed. We therefore evolved from SOMETHING.

Your name serves you well! Synnen! Didn't you read the scripture I posted? Yes, you know there is a God. You choose not to believe, that's all! And you will not be held without excuse!

If our brain activity is based on RANDOM chemical reactions, assuming we EVOLVED from nothingness! based on this THEORY we could not have ANY LOGIC, or REASONING! Only if we were intelligently designed could we have these things. My gosh, you couldn't even talk,walk,see,hear,taste,smell,or even LIVE for that matter! If we didn't have a creator that made these thing's!So not a single thought or word that you sepak emanates from you, it all comes from your god? So by extension your utter the word of god? I don't think so.

It may come a surprise to you but many have a sense of responsibility for their actiosn in that they own the actions they do. You take absolutely no responsibility for your actions and I find that very dangerous to society as a whole. Who knows what your god will make you do.

Your name serves you well! Synnen! Didn't you read the scripture I posted? Yes, you know their is a God. You choose not to believe, that's all! And you will not be held without excuse!You fall into the camp of fanatism (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fanatism). But you're blind to it due to the fanaticism. I apologize if the truth hurts.

Scott, how do I say this gently, read the Bible! Yes, you can have assurance in Heaven, anyone can. You have to Repent of your sins, and give your life to Jesus.

Who knows what your god will make you do.
I don't think that's where he's going with his (God-given) logic. He is trying to tell you that you have been "fearfully and wonderfully made" by God (who has the First and Ultimate Logic) so that you too have logic.

You fall into the camp of fanatism (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fanatism). But you're blind to it due to the fanatism. I apologize if the truth hurts.
No, he's just a fundamentalist, not a fanatic.

God loves us all, every one of us. But he hates the sin. REPENT, give your life to him, before it's too late.

Eternity is a long time! PLEASE GIVE YOUR LIFE TO JESUS!!

Find a Bible believing church, and just visit sometime.

This goes against the "LAWS OF PHYSICS"! Tell me how you get something from nothingness!

Close. God made Logic, so how could we have any?

No, he's just a fundamentalist, not a fanatic.The fundamantalist part if part of his denomination, the fanaticism part is part of his whole outlook on life which clouds his judgement.

Sawsall--your scripture was written by men.

Here--here's a scripture for you. "All gods are one god, and all goddesses are one goddess. We just call them by different names in our own need". Written by Synnen.

NOW---do YOU believe MY scripture any more than I believe YOUR scripture?

Got to go, talk to you tomorrow. Good thread.

God loves us all, each and every one of us. But he hates the sin. REPENT, give your life to him, before it's too late.

Eternity is a long time! PLEASE GIVE YOUR LIFE TO JESUS!!!

Find a Bible believing church, and just visit sometime.Dude you're a little scary in your preaching, it brings absolutely nothing to the discussion. You're just repeating the same thing over and over.

You do know about evolution, right?

What happened at the very beginning of time? Not sure-also not sure if there was a "beginning". I also find it easy to believe in a Creator as well as accept evolution as a reality.

Sawsall, you are going about this in the wrong way. This is not how to convince people about God's existence and that they need God in their lives. In fact, you are quickly turning off everyone who reads your posts.

There are better ways to do this.

Sawsall--I didn't get something from nothingness.

There was ALWAYS something, and NEVER nothing.

Therefore something came from something, not something from nothing.

There was ALWAYS something, and NEVER nothing.

That's what I'm inclined to believe, as well.

The fundamantalist part if part of his denomination, the fanatism part is part of his whole outlook on life which clouds his judgement.
The two are mutually inclusive?

The two are mutually inclusive?It sounds like we need a Venn diagram. :) I think the fundamentalism circle lives inside the fanaticism circle.

It sounds like we need a Venn diagram. :) I think the fundamentalism circle lives inside the fanatism circle.
I thought it was the other way around. Which came first, the fundamentalism or the fanaticism? Hmmmm. And we may be hijacking this thread.

I believe one can be fanatical about any number of things, religion just being one of them; one could be fanatical about a baseball team for example.

Or about politics ;)

Or about politics ;)That's a biggee. :)

And we may be hijacking this thread.
I recall y'all and Dwashbur were going to start another thread. Maybe we should do it in Member Discussions?

I recall y'all and Dwashbur were going to start another thread.
Dwashbur and someone else were going to. I was just cheering them on.

The late great Walter Martin used to talk about three different kinds of apologetics.

First, there's the upper-stratum intellectual type, which almost nobody takes seriously because they don't understand the vocabulary.

Second, there's pop apologetics. This is where well-informed people take the stuff from the upper deck and bring it down to a vocabulary level that regular people can grasp. He used to describe it as "Get the hay down out of the loft onto the barn floor, where the cows can get at it."

Third, there's slop apologetics. That's where somebody gloms onto a little of this and a little of that, thinks he knows something, goes charging into a discussion and gets creamed.

I think we know what brand sawsall is practicing. I would just ask everybody not to judge all of us by him.

Scott, how do I say this gently, read the Bible! yes, you can have assurance in Heaven, anyone can. You have to Repent of your sins, and give your life to Jesus.

I'm not going to bother being gentle. You don't deserve it. How would you like it if I said to you that what you believe is all lies and that you are a sinner because of it. You wouldn't like it, would you? So what do you think gives you ANY right to say the same thing to me?

I have given you the courtesy of accepting that you believe what you do. I have not challenged your beliefs. I've simply stated that I don't share those beliefs. I have expressed that I am glad for you that you find comfort in your faith. But I DEMAND the same courtesy, at least on this site.

I don't "have" to repent anything. I don't "have" to do anything. I am completely comfortable with my beliefs and that I lead a good, moral and ethical life. Can you say the same?

My apologies if have offended anyone. Please forgive me. I need to start over, and make thing's a little more clear. First, we need to prove that everything in the universe CANNOT come from NOTHINGNESS. I know I have said, look at the "Laws of Physics", but what I meant to say was look at the "Laws of Thermaldynamics". Please look at this:http://www.doesgodexist.org/JulAug06/TheLawsofThermodynamics.html

Hello again,

This is a better site to teach about the "Laws of Thermaldynamics", however it is a little lengthy. But for those of you who are interested:http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=9&article=2106

Hello again,

This is a better site to teach about the "Laws of Thermaldynamics", however it is a little lengthy. But for those of you who are interested:Apologetics Press - God and the Laws of Thermodynamics: A Mechanical Engineer?s Perspective (http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=9&article=2106)

Hi Sawsall,

I have looked at both arguments and there is a similar theme. That is, the universe is a closed system because it had a beginning in time. Without any 'input' the universe will 'run down' In other words, it will suffer a heat death because of increasing entropy.

Leaving other objections aside, the major problem from my point of view is that the theory depends on the universe having a beginning. i.e The Big Bang. If The Big Bang theory is incorrect and the universe has always existed ( no beginning in time) then the idea of the second law of thermodynamics operating in a closed system is no longer relevant.

Science does not know if The Big Bang theory is correct. At the moment there are a number of competing theories so it is impossible to draw any conclusions as presented in the links provided.

Tut

And the answer is- GOD. There had to be an outside supernatural force that could alter these laws. An open system. We cannot explain any other way around this. These laws have always been in place, never changing. I know I get passionate about my faith, but if you're an Evolutionist, trying to explain the unexplainable, doesn't this take faith as well? This is why I think Creation, and Evolution are a Religion.

But what if there never WAS nothingness?

Nothing can be created from nothing. Energy to matter or matter to energy--SOMETHING has always existed.

So... your theory is COMPLETELY based on the idea that God created something out of nothing.

I say that there was never "nothing". There was ALWAYS "something".

That "something" to YOU is a god. It isn't to ME. Therefore, all of your arguments do not work on me, because MY something could have been a bunch of ping pong balls bouncing around in multiple universes, for all I know. But I'm pretty sure it wasn't a god that gave of himself to create EVERYTHING.

I guess that if you go with THAT idea, the whole thing could have been created when some god sneezed.

But the laws that you quote do NOT prove that YOUR god exists.

Hi Synnen,

Correct! A supernatural force "God", had to have alway's been in existence. Now that I have proven this, now I can prove the God of the Bible, is the one, and only true God.

Nope--WRONG!

SOMETHING has always existed.

That something doesn't have to be a god.

It could have simply been all of the rocks and energy in the universe, forever and ever. No supernatural being need be involved at all.

Synn,

REALLY? All the rocks and energy forever. Wow! How utterly lucky for us. Out that came ALL of this order? The sun is right were it should be, so is the moon not to mention... intelligent life, DNA.. ect. etc. Oh well to each his own but I don't have enough FAITH to believe that... ;)

Carry on.. I don't have anything to offer really on the topic. Believing in God is about faith not proof. I can't prove anything.

I'm not saying I necessarily BELIEVE that it was rocks and energy

Just that the laws of thermodynamics don't PROVE that a god exists.

Synnen this is for you, but if anyone else wants to check it out go ahead. This website I just found is amazing, it's quite a long read but makes my point to a "T". Also this has been difficult for me since I've never had typing.

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/perfectproof.htm

Thanks.

And the answer is- GOD. There had to be an outside supernatural force that could alter these laws. An open system. We cannot explain any other way around this. These laws have always been in place, never changing. I know I get passionate about my faith, but if your an Evolutionist, trying to explain the unexplainable, doesn,t this take faith as well? This is why I think Creation, and Evolution are a Religion.

Hi Sawall,

You were asking about the laws of thermodynamics and the argument stands on its own. The second law of thermodynamics only applies to a closed system. If the second laws of thermodynamics are accurate ( which it is) then there must have been a time when the universe existed in a highly ordered state (zero entropy). It is not unreasonable to put forward the possibility that someone was responsible for this order in the beginning.

The assumption is of course,there was a beginning. We don't know if there was a beginning as generally understood (Big Bang). As I said there are a number of competing theories at the moment. Even if thermodynamics, evolution are related we don't know how.The conclusions drawn as per the links are speculation.


Tut

Synnen this is for you, but if anyone else wants to check it out go ahead. This website I just found is amazing, it's quite a long read but makes my point to a "T". Also this has been difficult for me since I've never had typing.

4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible (http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/perfectproof.htm)

Thanks.
No, sawsall, that's not proof. In fact, it barely touches on "proof" before the site is off and running in an attempt to convert the reader. Christians cannot prove God exists. It is a matter of faith.

Face it, Sawsall.

You CAN NOT PROVE that God exists. Every single "proof" I have EVER heard for the existence of god could substitute pingpong balls instead of god and would still work for logic--but not for proof of god.

You cannot prove something that you have to take on faith.

Face it, Sawsall.

You CAN NOT PROVE that God exists. Every single "proof" I have EVER heard for the existance of god could substitute pingpong balls instead of god and would still work for logic--but not for proof of god.

You cannot prove something that you have to take on faith.

But they would have to be INTELLIGENT ping-pong balls! :D (I think that describes every one I've ever tried to play with, because they always manage to avoid getting hit by me. But anyway... )

One thing I haven't seen come up on either side of this is the question of time. The universe we know is subject to a linear time frame. But if it had a beginning, then that suggest there's something or somebody or whatever that is outside of time. Saying that God or anything else is "eternal" assumes that time is a universal. I'm not sure that's the case. So if time is something that appeared with the appearance of this universe, then whatever is outside of it could, and probably would, be subject to a whole different set of "rules." Synnen, what are your thoughts on that?

Face it, Sawsall.

You CAN NOT PROVE that God exists. Every single "proof" I have EVER heard for the existance of god could substitute pingpong balls instead of god and would still work for logic--but not for proof of god.

You cannot prove something that you have to take on faith.

And just in case you think we are attacking your beliefs, we aren't. Because just like you can't prove God exists, we can't prove God doesn't exist. Any person's belief in the God of Christians, Allah, Buddha, Zeus, Odin or whatever is based on a matter of faith in the teachings of their religions. You are free to choose what you want to believe in. Just as we are free to choose what we want to believe in. I have no intention of interfering with your right to believe what you want. Its when you insist on trying to impose your beliefs on others that I draw the line. I think my last post may have gotten through to you a little, but not enough.

I think we only assume that time is linear, because that is how we live it.

I think there is a good possibility that time is circular, but on a circle so immense that we cannot comprehend it. That would take care of the "beginning" thing.

I also think there's a good possibility that we don't understand time at all yet. Our thoughts on it are pretty primitive, honestly. I don't think we've reached a scientific or mental place yet where we can comprehend time as more than linear.

So... who knows? Perhaps there are entire civilizations on some distant planet who live time backward from death to birth or who are able to jump around in time to change things--and that understand time well enough to avoid paradox.

I certainly can't wrap my brain around it.

But "There are more things on heaven and earth..."

I think what I'm trying to say is that I don't KNOW anything. I don't KNOW that there's a Goddess, or that I'll be reborn, or that Karma works, or that my next life will take me one step closer to being perfect.

What I do have is faith and belief. I BELIEVE that there is a benevolent and just goddess, and that She will punish as she sees fit. I BELIEVE that what you put out comes back to you sevenfold. I BELIEVE that karma works, and that I will learn in my next life the lessons that escaped me in this life.

I BELIEVE that with my whole heart, and have faith that what I do not understand will come to me when I have lived enough lives to have learned the lessons that will help me better understand the order of the universe and my place in it.

I BELIEVE it, and I have FAITH in it.

I cannot PROVE it, and wouldn't even try.

I think that people who try to prove it to others are desperate to prove their beliefs to themselves, honestly--and I feel sad for them that they do not have enough faith to know that proving it won't help ANYONE.

So...who knows? Perhaps there are entire civilizations on some distant planet who live time backward from death to birth or who are able to jump around in time to change things--and that understand time well enough to avoid paradox.

I certainly can't wrap my brain around it.

If you want to discover what a famous writer did with this concept and find out how complicated it can be, read Bearing an Hourglass by Piers Anthony.

And with the current discussion, there's the problem of dimensions.

Thank You!

I have heard enough of this hog-wash! I can put proof right in front of you and you can't see it!

Good Bye!

I have heard enough of this hog-wash! I can put proof right in front of you and you can't see it!

Good Bye!
I'm a lifelong Christian, preacher's kid, former parochial school teacher, adult Bible class leader, Sunday School teacher.

You have not put any proof in front of us. Your reasoning and those sites' reasoning is circular and prove nothing about the existence of God.

No one can prove God exists. It's a matter of faith.

I have heard enough of this hog-wash! I can put proof right in front of you and you can't see it!

Good Bye!

Don't forget to pick up your toys...

Me, I'm going back to washing my hogs...

Sawsall,

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Hebrews 11:6

It is all a matter of faith. Good GRIEF, God in the flesh was HERE! He healed, and raised the dead, turned water into wine and he himself rose the third day after he was crucified. If people who saw him didn't believe with their own eyes, how do you think you can prove him to exist. It is ALL faith. And you can't come to him otherwise.

I think we only assume that time is linear, because that is how we live it.

As far as we know, that's how it functions everywhere. I emphasize "as far as we know." But scientifically speaking, we're pretty well stuck with the idea of starting with what we know.


I think there is a good possibility that time is circular, but on a circle so immense that we cannot comprehend it. That would take care of the "beginning" thing.

Could you develop this a little for me? I'm not sure I follow, because even if it's circular in the way I *think* I understand you to mean it, it still pretty well plays out in a linear fashion, at least for us. But it's clear to me that there's something here I'm not grasping.


I also think there's a good possibility that we don't understand time at all yet. Our thoughts on it are pretty primitive, honestly. I don't think we've reached a scientific or mental place yet where we can comprehend time as more than linear.

Good point. But again, scientifically, all we know is all we know, so we more or less have to start there.

When I refer to being "outside of time" the best example I can think of is from Star Trek Deep Space Nine. When Captain Sysko went into the worm hole he encountered the beings that the Bajorans called "the prophets." These beings existed outside of time and had no concept of a linear existence; to them, all events were simultaneous because time as we know it wasn't part of their universe. This sort of how I tentatively see God existing, i.e. on a plane so different from our own that there's no good way we can comprehend it. But he's not subject to time, and therefore needs no "beginning." I hope that makes a modicum of sense.


So... who knows? Perhaps there are entire civilizations on some distant planet who live time backward from death to birth or who are able to jump around in time to change things--and that understand time well enough to avoid paradox.

I don't know about the first part, but the second part sounds a lot like Doctor Who! I like it! :)


I certainly can't wrap my brain around it.

But "There are more things on heaven and earth..."

Agreed. But for me, the fact that I can't wrap my brain around it is a good thing, because IMAO (In My Arrogant Opinion) any "God" worthy of the name would, by definition, have to be way beyond my comprehension. If he/she/it were fully comprehensible by my finite mind, I don't see how he/she/it could be a genuine deity. But that's just me.

Dwashbur---start that thread, and let me know where it is.

I'd be happy to expound as best I can on that--but it's hard for me to explain something I don't really understand myself. I think you understand what I mean by that.

I have heard enough of this hog-wash! I can put proof right in front of you and you can't see it!

Good Bye!

Even people who believe as you do are telling you that what you have offered proves nothing. They are telling you its all based on Faith. Faith is a very powerful thing. Many people have it and find great comfort in it. Others prefer more tangible evidence. Until you accept that the belief in God, in ANY god, is based on faith you will continue to be frustrated by people who don't have that same faith.

Dwashbur---start that thread, and let me know where it is.

I'd be happy to expound as best I can on that--but it's hard for me to explain something I don't really understand myself. I think you understand what I mean by that.

Okay. It may be a little while, some things just turned to crap in my life in the past few minutes.

As far as we know, that's how it functions everywhere. I emphasize "as far as we know." But scientifically speaking, we're pretty well stuck with the idea of starting with what we know.



Could you develop this a little for me? I'm not sure I follow, because even if it's circular in the way I *think* I understand you to mean it, it still pretty well plays out in a linear fashion, at least for us. But it's clear to me that there's something here I'm not grasping.



Good point. But again, scientifically, all we know is all we know, so we more or less have to start there.

When I refer to being "outside of time" the best example I can think of is from Star Trek Deep Space Nine. When Captain Sysko went into the worm hole he encountered the beings that the Bajorans called "the prophets." These beings existed outside of time and had no concept of a linear existence; to them, all events were simultaneous because time as we know it wasn't part of their universe. This sort of how I tentatively see God existing, i.e. on a plane so different from our own that there's no good way we can comprehend it. But he's not subject to time, and therefore needs no "beginning." I hope that makes a modicum of sense.



I don't know about the first part, but the second part sounds a lot like Doctor Who! I like it! :)



Agreed. But for me, the fact that I can't wrap my brain around it is a good thing, because IMAO (In My Arrogant Opinion) any "God" worthy of the name would, by definition, have to be way beyond my comprehension. If he/she/it were fully comprehensible by my finite mind, I don't see how he/she/it could be a genuine deity. But that's just me.



I found this.This may help the debate. It is pretty much what I have been saying all along.


YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. (http://www.youtube.com?watch?=vh351nDdzva)


As far as I can see not many people believe the universe has existed for an infinite amount of time. What is being confused here is the claim made by people such as myself that the universe will continue to exist indefinitely.

In other words, there is a big difference between saying that the universe had 'A' beginning as opposed to the universe having 'the beginning'. One of many beginnings.

As far a science is concerned there are a number of competing theories as to the type of beginnings possible. Herein lies the problem. The second law of thermodynamics requires the universe to be a closed system. If we could trace causation backwards and forwards a number of times ( we can't of course) but if we could, we would end up with a universe existing as a singularity( highly organized state) and eventually becoming heat dead. With some imagination we could see that this process could go back and forwards forever provided nothing can enter or leave the closed system.

Some of the beginnings of the universe postulated require the universe to be an open system. Therefore, heat death will be avoided by input from an 'outside agency' so to speak. It is because science deals with physical things this 'agency' is always a physical process. Some people want to say that this 'agency' is a non physical entity. I have no problem with this but they need to be aware they are drawing a metaphysical conclusion from scientific facts. At this stage of human development we have no theory to bridge the gap between metaphysics and science. As I have said many time the conclusions reached are metaphysical speculation.

Tut

I found this.This may help the debate. It is pretty much what I have been saying all along.


YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. (http://www.youtube.com?watch?=vh351nDdzva)





Actually it is not helpful at all because it is a typo. It should be:

YouTube - The Second Law of Thermodynamics and the Finite Universe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h351nDd3ZvA)

Tut

When I refer to being "outside of time" the best example I can think of is from Star Trek Deep Space Nine. When Captain Sysko went into the worm hole he encountered the beings that the Bajorans called "the prophets." These beings existed outside of time and had no concept of a linear existence; to them, all events were simultaneous because time as we know it wasn't part of their universe. This sort of how I tentatively see God existing, i.e. on a plane so different from our own that there's no good way we can comprehend it. But he's not subject to time, and therefore needs no "beginning." I hope that makes a modicum of sense.



Hi dwashbur,

I hope you don't mind me using your quote again. I was unhappy with my earlier response to the problem of thermodynamics If you read the stuff I have written it is pretty bad. I will have another go borrowing a bit of science fiction.

Firstly, if (and it is a big if) The Big Bang was the beginning then to talk about what occurred before the Big Bang is meaningless. This is because the Big Bang marks the beginning of time as well. There was no before. Borrowing from the physics forum and Hawking. "To asks what came before the Big Bang is a bit like asking what is north of the North Pole?"

As far as the Big Bang is concerned, talk is usually centred on the universe we are in. This is because it is generally assumed there is only one universe.

What about things existing outside our universe? For example parallel universes. Anyone living in a parallel universe would probably have to experience a very similar linear time experience as ourselves. I think the Bajorans would live their lives like we live ours and not be aware of any other universe existing. As far as we know it is not possible to cross over to another universe even if this other universe was only a few inches away from our universe. There is one possible exception to this rule. The possible exception is what could roughly be termed gravity.

The reason why these two universes ended up being so close together is because gravity has been 'leaking' out of their universe and 'leaking' into ours and vice verse. This has resulted in the two universes slowly being drawn together. In a billion years from now humans and Bajorans are in for a rude shock. When the two universe touch there will be a cataclysm that is beyond imagination. It would be something like the Big Bang all over again.

This fanciful scenario is very roughly like an alternative put forward by string theorists. It is taken as a serious alternative to the Big Bang. On this basis there is no beginning to the universe. We live on a membrane along with countless other membranes. Over trillions of years there will be many occasions when branes touch and 'the' Big Bang is really 'a' Big Bang.

If all this were all true then I guess we could say that the second law of thermodynamics doesn't operate in a closed universe. This is especially true if another 'universe' enters our 'universe' through extra dimensions.

Is there a physicist out there that can help??


Tut

Tut,
I didn't even feel a light breeze as that whole thing sailed over my head...

Tut,
I didn't even feel a light breeze as that whole thing sailed over my head...

Hi Dave,

Then I have provided another poor explanation.

We have all probably gotten ahead of ourselves in this debate. Let's address the central issue in this debate as it has unfolded.

Do the scientific concepts put forward in this debate exclude the possibility that God exists? More specifically, do they exclude the possibility that God exists outside of time and space?

The answer is NO. How can they?

Does the concept of thermodynamics prove the existence of God?

Again. No, How can it.

The majority of people in this forum are correct when they say a belief in God is a matter of faith. These sort of things cannot be demonstrated or refuted by way of science. If Kant were alive today I am sure he would say that those scientists( and others) who try and build a bridge from what we know about thermodynamics to what must be true about the non- physical world will always fall into error. There is no basis for any inference concerning thermodynamics to any metaphysical conclusion about the existence of God.

They are trying to draw conclusions about the existence of God from scientific facts. I would argue this is fallacious reasoning.

Tut

Hi Dave,

Then I have provided another poor explanation.


No, you just have a much broader vocabulary than I do! I think that what you're saying may be boiled down into one of my favorite C.S. Lewis quotes. He said


No study of probabilities within a given framework will ever be able to tell us whether the framework itself may be violated.

He neglected to add "from the outside" but in context that's what he meant. Basically it's the same thing I hear you saying: science can't prove the existence of God, but it can't rule it out, either.

But people don't want to be accountable, or have a God telling them what to do.
I consider myself accountable for my actions. No god tells me what to do. Does your god tell you all the actions you do and thoughts you have?

Sawsall. Please stop using the stupid comments feature to reply.

Also, could you please be a little respectful of the beliefs of others? Not everyone believes as you do.

I consider myself accountable for my actions. No god tells me what to do. Does your god tell you all the actions you do and thoughts you have?

Apparently his god told him that he wants his wife's "kitty" shaved. :p


And STOP using the stupid comments feature to reply!!!!

Apparently his god told him that he wants his wife's "kitty" shaved. :pTotally against what the bible says. I see he and his wife are cafeteria christians.

Let's talk about whatever You want J9! However your avoiding the issue! And your sinning before a Holy and Righteous God! TUT, you are getting closer.

By the way, Why did you delete my last answer J9? Can't or don't want to know the truth?

Let's talk about whatever You want J9! However your avoiding the issue! And your sinning before a Holy and Righteous God! TUT, you are getting closer.
How about you answer my question from post 161?

*Puts Broom Away*

Be careful with what you post as I'm watching ;)

I thought we ALL sinned before a MERCIFUL God?

Let's talk about whatever You want J9! However your avoiding the issue! And your sinning before a Holy and Righteous God! TUT, you are getting closer.

That only matters if you BELIEVE in that god.

I don't believe in your god. Or rather, I don't believe that your god is the ONLY god.

I'm NOT CHRISTIAN.

You haven't convinced me of anything in this thread---EXCEPT that I'm truly glad I got away from Christianity as soon as I graduated from high school. I'm glad that I don't have to deal with people as fanatic as you when I am worshipping my deity. I'm glad that I don't EXPECT others to worship as I do, and glad that there are truly wonderful people out there of ALL religions who don't EXPECT me to worship as they do.

Actually, all you have done in this entire thread is make me CELEBRATE that I am NOT a Christian, Sawsall. Of all of the religious people I have ever encountered, it is generally Christians that make me feel like they are rabid dogs that are just waiting to bite me to infect me with their fanatic disease.

Good job bringing people to the flock of Christianity (sarcasm). I can't speak for everyone of other religions following this thread, but I can state that for myself--you've pushed me even further away from your beliefs because you have no tolerance for the beliefs of anyone else.

What was your question again, NeedKarma? I don't know how to find post #161.

What was your question again, NeedKarma? I don't know how to find post #161.Ask Me Help Desk - View Single Post - How can you convince someone to believe in God? (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/2802471-post161.html)

SouthAmerica, God is Merciful yes, This is why he sent his son into the world to die for us. But remember, he is, and has to be JUST. Let me ask this, If There is NO God, how do we know what's JUST? Is it what Needkarma says is JUST? Or Synnen? No offense to people that think they can do right, but to what standard? God has instilled these values in us,in our hearts. What this comes down to is do we want to believe in a God that has perfect values and is JUST. Or, Make ourselves into our own God's. For this is Idolotry! We want to do thing's our own way and pretend there is no God. But he does exist, and EVERY knee will bow, to a Holy and Righteous God! We will be accountable for everything we say or do. But if we put are faith solely on Jesus, His Blood will cleanse us of all sin. And make us Righteous before God. I know what most of you will say to this. But I will prove that the Christian faith is the one and only true faith.

So if it wasn't for your true faith you woudn't know not to kill people or rape children?

:)
I consider myself accountable for my actions. No god tells me what to do. Does your god tell you all the actions you do and thoughts you have?

Sorry NeedKarma, No! God gives us "free will". However we will be accountable for what we think, say, or do. Unbelievers at "The Great White Throne Judgement" , and believers at "Christ's Judgement Seat".

Sorry NeedKarma, No! God gives us "free will". But you said:

But people don't want to be accountable, or have a God telling them what to do.So does god tell you what to do or doesn't he/she?

Sawsall, the strength of a real Christian evangelist is to be willing to go to where others are in their beliefs and start from that point, rather than bludgeon them with his own version of truth. So far, all you are doing is bludgeoning.

And yes, I'm a Christian, so don't bother bludgeoning me.

Out of all the religions in the World, Christianity can be proven to be the one true religion. Jesus, for example had hundreds of Prophesies fulfilled about himself. He is the ONLY founder out of all the different religions in the World to still be alive. Where are all of the other founders? In the grave. Christ was the only one that could defeat even death.

I challenge anyone to disprove Christianity!

I challenge anyone to disprove Christianity!Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance)

SouthAmerica, God is Merciful yes, This is why he sent his son into the world to die for us. But remember, he is, and has to be JUST. Let me ask this, If There is NO God, how do we know what's JUST? Is it what Needkarma says is JUST? or Synnen? No offense to people that think they can do right, but to what standard? God has instilled these values in us,in our hearts. What this comes down to is do we want to believe in a God that has perfect values and is JUST. Or, Make ourselves into our own God's. For this is Idolotry! We want to do thing's our own way and pretend there is no God. But he does exist, and EVERY knee will bow, to a Holy and Righteous God! We will be accountable for everything we say or do. But if we put are faith solely on Jesus, His Blood will cleanse us of all sin. And make us Righteous before God. I know what most of you will say to this. But I will prove that the Christian faith is the one and only true faith.


Hate to point this out to you so publicly, but apparently you've never researched any other religion to know it:

ALL religions have nearly the same basic moral standards. Every last one of them says killing is bad, and that stealing is bad, and that you should honor your elders. Nearly all religions say that rape is bad (whether you phrase it as not taking something against someone's free will or you phrase it as not coveting what is not yours, they say the same thing). Nearly all religions that humanity follows have the SAME BASIC RULES for respecting others and living in peace.

Your god doesn't have a corner on the market for morality.

So sorry to break that to you so publicly, but you just do not understand that you are preaching intolerance, not love. You don't understand that while you may believe in only one god, not everyone believes in that same god--and the only way we can live in peace is to respect each others' religious teachings.

But it's really hard to respect you when you won't even ACKNOWLEDGE that you don't KNOW--you only BELIEVE.

O.K. Wondergirl, your probably right. But even if these people hear the truth, only God will turn them from there sins, by sending his Holy Spirit.

NeedKarma, Yes he gives us his word found in the Holy Bible. Does this answer the question?

Remember people I can't type! Be patient while I hunt and peck! LOL.

Out of all the religions in the World, Christianity can be proven to be the one true religion. Jesus, for example had hundreds of Prophesies fulfilled about himself. He is the ONLY founder out of all the different religions in the World to still be alive. Where are all of the other founders? In the grave. Christ was the only one that could defeat even death.

I challenge anyone to disprove Christianity!

REALLY? The ONLY one that can be PROVEN? I haven't seen "proof" YET!

And he's still alive? I mean, I heard he rose from the grave, but zombies do that too. He DIED. He's not any more alive than Gilgamesh. Or Osiris. Or the Horned God that dies every year to renew the world. Or Adonis, Persephone, Orpheus, Mithras, Tammuz, Krishna, Odin, Ishtar, or Inanna.

In fact, nearly all of your Christian myths are based on much older myths, and nearly all of your traditions are "borrowed" from other, older religions.

You have "proved" nothing to me---other than that you're a fanatic who doesn't even understand your own religion and how it relates to other religions.

O.K. Wondergirl, your probably right. But even if these people hear the truth, only God will turn them from there sins, by sending his Holy Spirit.
See, there you go again -- bludgeoning. If only I could give you a short course in how to do mission work... but you'd probably bludgeon even me.

Why can't you see that you are turning people off, rather than on, to God and Christianity? That is the worst kind of evangelizing and not what your God wants from you, to be such a poor witness. By turning people off to God and Christianity, you are doing the exact opposite of what you should be doing. Shame on you!

NeedKarma, Yes he gives us his word found in the Holy Bible. Does this answer the question?
No it doesn't. You dance around posting oft-used standard preaching phrases but it never seems to directly answer a question. Oh well...

Synnen, While many claim to be God's or Goddess's, they are only human, and they die. Christ, however was not only fully human, but fully God as well. Thus, a person of the Godhead. See Hebrews 1:3 (NIV).

Out of all the religions in the World, Christianity can be proven to be the one true religion. Jesus, for example had hundreds of Prophesies fulfilled about himself. He is the ONLY founder out of all the different religions in the World to still be alive. Where are all of the other founders? In the grave. Christ was the only one that could defeat even death.

I challenge anyone to disprove Christianity!

You still don't get it, do you. I can no more "disprove" Christianity, than you can prove it. Just as I can't prove Judaism, Islam, Hindu, etc. But then you can't disprove them either. Religion is a matter of faith and belief, NOT fact, NOT truth. Until you understand that you are going to be nothing more than a fanatic.

And where is Christ still alive? He may have risen from the dead, but not to be alive as we we know it. So there is another of your arguments that is just plain ridiculous.

Synnen, While many claim to be God's or Goddess's, they are only human, and they die. Christ, however was not only fully human, but fully God as well. Thus, a person of the Godhead. See Hebrews 1:3 (NIV).

Oh really?

You're telling me that MY god, the Horned One, who is killed every year and reborn is dead, or just human?

Or that the Hindu god Krishna is nothing but a human?

Based on YOUR guidelines, Jesus was only human too.

Do you even know ANYTHING about any other religion?

TUT, you are getting closer.

Hi Sawsall,

I'm not sure what you mean by 'getting closer' I thought I handled the thermodynamics debate rather poorly. I would do it differently if I had to do the whole thing again. But thanks anyway.

Tut

By the way, Why did you delete my last answer J9? Can't or don't want to know the truth?

I didn't delete your answer hypocrite, an Administrator did because you misused the comments feature. ;)

I didn't delete your answer hypocrite, an Administrator did because you misused the comments feature. ;)

We are all Hypocrites before God!

We are all Hypocrites before God!

Speak for yourself!

J9, Why did you come to this post? Have I heard anything from you about whether God exist's or not? No, seems like you came to pick a fight! So Leave!

I don't believe god exists. No, you have no authority to tell anyone on this site to leave a thread.

No, seems like you came to pick a fight! So Leave!
I believe you are unclear about how internet forums work. This isn't like your church - all views are accepted.

I believe you are unclear about how internet forums work. This isn't like your church - all views are accepted.

To add, while we may not agree with someone's view, we try to respect their right to have that view. This is what you have not exhibited throughout this thread. If anyone should leave, it would be you. Not that I'm telling you to leave, as noted you have a right to post here as long as you follow our rules. Just as we have the right to express out views and show what a zealot and fanatic fool you are. In some cases I would admire someone who is sticking to their guns and continuing to defend their position. But in your case, your positions is mostly unsupportable. The rug has been pulled out of most of your arguments time and time again.

Wondergirl, I am brandishing a spiritual sword, not a physical one.

As Christians we should defend the faith. Although I ask myself at times, how would Christ handle this? I think after enough, he would turn them over to their sins.

So with that, I will leave this thread and look at other questions.

Good-bye all.

Wondergirl, God Bless You!

I think after enough, he would turn them over to their sins.He likely wouldn't. You might want to re-read this thread and see for yourself how many sins you have committed.

Wondergirl, I am brandishing a spiritual sword, not a physical one.

As Christians we should defend the faith. Although I ask myself at times, how would Christ handle this? I think after enough, he would turn them over to their sins.

So with that, I will leave this thread and look at other questions.

Good-bye all.

But why brandish a sword at all? I don't think anyone has attacked Christianity. We have defended your right to believe in Christianity, but we have also defended our right to believe what we want.

As to how Jesus Christ would have handled this, I think he was more concerned with the type of life people led, not how they worshiped.

Wondergirl, I am brandishing a spiritual sword, not a physical one.
I said nothing about a sword, spiritual or physical.

As Christians we should defend the faith. Although I ask myself at times, how would Christ handle this? I think after enough, he would turn them over to their sins.
No one has attacked "the faith." Only you are making trouble where none had existed. And you consider yourself a Christian? That's not what Christians do.

How would Christ have handled this? Far differently from how you have. Jesus sat down and ate with publicans and prostitutes, meanwhile probably discussed the weather, asked how many pets they owned and what their favorite foods were, and generally made an emotional connection with them. Only when He had made a connection with their hearts could He have begun to connect with their souls. You have not made an emotional connection here nor a spiritual one. Jesus is weeping.

To Sawsall,

I was raised to never discuss politics or religion. However, I was also raised to be tolerant of others belief systems and to never push my beliefs on anyone. It appears that you, on the other hand, were not raised to be tolerant and appreciate the differences of belief systems. It seems you were raised to shove Jesus down the throat of anyone you meet.

The subject of this thread is "how can you convince someone to believe in god." As it is apparent here, there is no one that can effectively convince someone to believe in something other then what they hold truly in their hearts and/or minds.

I'll give you an example... but this is truly for another thread so please, no one hijack this thread from my statements only. If you wish to start another thread about this, please feel free to do so.

I am a scientific person. I don't believe that life begins at conception. I believe that the zygote is parasitic until a certain stage of development. I know I'm not going to convince you otherwise, and I respect your beliefs, and you aren't going to convince me otherwise, but I guarantee you won't respect my beliefs.

Why is it important to convince someone of your beliffs?

I think if you're a good person and don't hert any one then you don't need organised religion to use as a moral guide. All religions have a similar message - Be good to other and good will come to etc, 'karma'

I think if you don't praise any gods at all but still live a good life you still don't have to fear death as it is going to happen to us all.

Also remember trying to change someone's belifs is a form of facsim. Don't be a religious fanatic/facist and get along with humans as a spieces.

Black white yellow brown any shade in between - lets forget religious diferances.

Religion is great as a form of phiosiphy, a good moral code to stand by but don't forget that religion in history has been the corses of many wars just like politics. Lets not repeat history learn from the poast for a better future.

Peace for the future... I hope.

Why is it important to convince someone of your beliffs?

I think if your a good person and don't hert any one then you don't need organised religion to use as a moral guide. All religions have a similar message - Be good to other and good will come to ect, 'karma'

I think if you don't praise any gods at all but still live a good life you still don't have to fear death as it is going to happen to us all.

Also remeber trying to change someones belifs is a form of facsim. Don't be a religous fanatic/facist and get along with humans as a spieces.

Black white yellow brown any shade in between - lets forget religous diferances.

Religion is great as a form of phiosiphy, a good moral code to stand by but don't forget that religion in history has been the corses of many wars just like politics. Lets not repeat history learn from the poast for a better future.

Peace for the future......... I hope.

Ummmm...

The OP was referring to herself, which we learned later in this thread. So no fascism or fanaticism. Just someone who's lost something important to her and wants to know if she should fight to get it back back.

Generally, it's best to read an ENTIRE thread before responding. Otherwise you miss connotations that are revealed when the OP gives more information.

In addition, this thread is from several months ago. Please watch dates when responding.

This thread is now closed.