I'm sorry but there is a certain member on here who is scaring the CRAP out of me. I've mentioned it before in another thread, but I'm starting my own to get the point across directly.

How in the world does anyone know that the world is going to end in May 2011?? Furthermore, if it is indeed going to end then, how do you know YOU are going to be accepted by God?? I am worried to death every single time I read something that you write (you know who you are, if you ask, I will confirm)! Please explain what you base your theory on. The way I was always taught, no one knows/will know when the end is near, where do you and your people get the facts? What do you base it on? Is it really a mathematical logic? I have more to say, but I'm going to end it here as I am curious as to what others to have to say-I will build off that.

Rest assured, no one knows when the world will end.

(Actually, according to Harold Camping, the Rapture and the start of Judgment Day will be May 21, 2011, followed by the end of the world on October 21, 2011.) Camping, had also predicted the end of the world in 1994. Guess what didn't happen?! Mr. Camping claims he's discovered a mathematical formula or some such. Psssst, just between you and me, there IS no such thing.

Here's another example of Camping's reasoning:

In John 21:1-14, the disciples are about 200 cubits out from the shore on the Sea of Galilee. Harold Camping has taken that figure of 200 cubits and decided that it actually means 2000 years between the first and second coming of Christ. Not only has Harold Camping inserted his own meaning into a minor detail in the Bible, he has changed the number from 200 to 2000 and the units from cubits to years. (from CULTWATCH - Harold Camping (http://www.cultwatch.com/HaroldCamping.html))

Does that tell you Camping's reasoning is a bit suspect?

And if it were true, every Catholic and Protestant church would be calculating like mad and coming up with the same results. The front page of newspapers would be filled with articles. After all, how many times does the world really come to an end?

I don't have a lot to say about it because I think it's rubbish. Utter rubbish.

BUT, sometimes when the world starts scaring the crud out of me, I listen to See you in the light (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgUcyhk7Tl0&feature=related) by Michael Franti and Spearhead.

If the end of the world is this year, well then I hope I see you all on the other side!

I want to believe that it is rubbish, I mean I was a lot younger and remembering the world was going to end once we hit Year 2000, but we seem to be doing fine today... I'm not trying to start shiz with anyone, but I'm just trying to collect the facts. I mean these people leave their families, belongings, jobs, all sorts of "crazy" (crazy in my opinion) things behind and go travel in a van or on a bus preaching that the world is going to end in two months. It's a scary thought because there are so many innocent people out there (and I am NOT talking about myself) who haven't had the chance to learn about the word of God and all that, do you think THEY would be accepted by God if indeed this date is to be true? Seems unfair to me... don't think God would do that...

It's a scary thought because there are so many innocent people out there (and I am NOT talking about myself) who haven't had the chance to learn about the word of God and all that, do you think THEY would be accepted by God if indeed this date is to be true? Seems unfair to me...don't think God would do that...
It sounds like that is your larger concern rather than the world ending in May.

God is Love. Rest your heart on that.

It sounds like that is your larger concern rather than the world ending in May.

God is Love. Rest your heart on that.

Yes, my major concern is my family. I have three little ones, who I've just introduced to church/God. They are great kids with big hearts, I just feel that they haven't had enough time according to what these "preachers" are preaching...

My largest concern is my family, first and far-most.

"God is Love. Rest your heart on that."

By the way, that is very beautiful and 100% true. Now that's something I can believe in!

Yes, my major concern is my family. I have three little ones, who I've just introduced to church/God. They are great kids with big hearts, I just feel that they haven't had enough time according to what these "preachers" are preaching...

My largest concern is my family, first and far-most.
So you are already bringing God into their lives. And you've already taught your children to have "big hearts." God doesn't hand out diplomas to entitle people to get into heaven once they are "finished" learning all about Him (as if we could be... ). We are always learning.

Even the doubters -- A well-known Christian writer (Frederick Buechner) once said, "Doubts are the ants in the pants of faith." If you're even having doubts, that means there's something there.

The only people I would fear for are those who been presented with the Gospel, the two Greatest Commandments (love God and each other), and who have said, "No, thanks." And God may have something up His sleeve for them too.

If our time here on Earth is meant to give us a full understanding of God, the first source and center, and our journey to the universe of universes...


Well then I think the big man in the sky needs to restructure the curriculum, or perhaps upgrade the facilities in which we learn.

"God is Love. Rest your heart on that."

By the way, that is very beautiful and 100% true. Now that's something I can believe in!

And it's pretty much all you need. All this May 2011 crap is just some clown who's either a) totally deluded and self-important, or b) laughing all the way to the bank. People have been setting dates since the day Jesus ascended, and they've all been wrong. Jesus said nobody, not even he himself, knows the day or hour. Some people will tell you that he didn't really mean that and you can know; baloney. I'll go with the plain words of the Lord: nobody knows, nobody can know. Don't let anyone who's not Jesus tell you differently. What comes after May 21, 2011? May 22, 2011. Nothing more. Love your family, you're doing great.

Wondergirl nailed it with her first post. Let's look at what the bible says about it... which she did using the most perfect verse to combat it. Funny they magically find their way around that one. The other thing is look at the person who has this "revelation". Biblically speaking, he should already be labeled a false prophet from his earlier fiasco... but no, just like the JWs, he just keeps pumping out end of the world falsehoods. When will people learn not to be fooled by this stuff?

Here's one more thing... even if they figured out the exact date, which remember the bible says ONLY the Father knows, why can't they just leave it at that... but no, in true cult fashion they add a bunch of other nonsense to the mix... now we're supposed to leave our churches too... so much for the bible telling us NOT to forsake the gathering of the brethren. These people need to spend more time reading what the bible DOES say and less time trying to MAKE it say something.

They are welcome to come to my church on May 22nd... I think a lot of people are going to need a little "pick me up" on that morning. I feel sorry for am equally embarrassed for them.

First no one knows, when the earth will end, there were 100's of dates for years. remember the year 2000 when all of the world was to end.

This is a small nut case group that for what ever reason won't agree to sign over all of their belongings to me the day before, if they are all sure, why won't they.

But next why is it even a worry, you should be laughing that anyone could believe such bull.

I WOULD laugh if it's wasn't so serious and sad. They are scaring people and really causing some confusion. But, I'm with you... if they're so sure about it, sign something over to me too... I could use their house or car, seeing as they won't be needing it and all...

I WOULD laugh if it's wasn't so serious and sad. They are scaring people and really causing some confusion. But, I'm with you...if they're so sure about it, sign something over to me too...I could use their house or car, seeing as they won't be needing it and all...

I want in on this action, too!

My own view, based on nothing more than the fact that I can be a monumental jerk at times so it's what I would do:

God sets a date and time. Some bozo starts fumbling with numbers and accidentally hits on the date and time that God set. When that happens, God changes the date and time just to make sure the bozo is wrong.

Creating God in my own image? You bet! Fun to play with inside my own head? Definitely! Taking it seriously? No bloomin' way!

What really interests me are the proponents of this date stuff ( read that as HSB and others) refuse to come on and post their excuses for following this false teaching. Instead they simply post the same blather on every other thread. Even though it has nothing to do with the original subject.

Thank you all for your replies. It's very comforting to hear from all of you. I will admit, I need to open up my heart and learn more about Jesus/God, at least I'm at a starting point with myself and my family. With that being said, I guess I'm just at a gullible/vulnerable stage right now when it comes to hearing about things like this-at the current time, I'm a little ignorant to the facts so It's hard for me to decipher what's true and what's not. Hearing your different opinions certainly brings me a wider range of hope. Thanks again!

So you are already bringing God into their lives. And you've already taught your children to have "big hearts." God doesn't hand out diplomas to entitle people to get into heaven once they are "finished" learning all about Him (as if we could be...). We are always learning.

Even the doubters -- A well-known Christian writer (Frederick Buechner) once said, "Doubts are the ants in the pants of faith." If you're even having doubts, that means there's something there.

The only people I would fear for are those who been presented with the Gospel, the two Greatest Commandments (love God and each other), and who have said, "No, thanks." And God may have something up His sleeve for them too.


Your words are very, very comforting to me. I need to surround myself and loved ones around people like you... Sometimes I am so wrapped up in worrying about the wrong things that I miss out on the true meaning (which I should already know) of what's really important.

Depressed... the only people that make the bible confusing for others is when they are trying to FORCE something to be found in it. Don't be afraid of reading it... it means what it says. When Jesus says that NO MAN knows the day or the hour of His return... rest assured that is what He meant. When you read in the bible where it says that if we confess our sins and simply believe that Jesus died in our place we shall be saved... it's that simple. Don't let denominations confuse you with Gifts of the Holy Spirit or baptism (which are important... but not essential for salvation). Opening your heart to God is the most important step... you don't have to have it all figured out. Rest assured my friend, not everyone believes the garbage that is floating around out there about certain dates... I will sleep like a baby May 21st because I know where my heart is... certainly not in a man with a shaky biblical foundation.

Of course we need to live every day, as if it was our last one on earth, ( for many reasons) I can remember the day my first wife died, the last words were very mean and hurtful. So no chance to ever change those last words.
I had considered calling to try and "make up" but did not, so now that call is a little too long distant to make.

But even with that, as a Christian, or even many other major religions, we do talk about a "last day" and we do not know when it is, It may be tonight or it may be 1000 years from now, we just don't know. But the person who has their heart right with God will not worry about it,

I lost a good friend last month to cancer and another one only has about 5 weeks to leave. What they both said, was that they have made their peace with God.
And that is it, we need each day to have our peace made with God, so that if and when our time comes we are ready and face it with honor

Exactly my point. When your heart is right with God... who cares when He comes... He'll return when He does, and until then it's our job (as Christians) to continue to be the light of the world. True, this guy has a 1 in 365 chance of being right... but what does it matter? Quite frankly if someone knew the exact time and lived like a sinner up until the last moment then "repented", it says a lot about his heart and his true intentions. It doesn't even make sense to provide mankind with a date like that.

Fact is that every word in the whole Bible is the words of Jesus. And many references tell us that there would come a time when God's prophets will know the time of the end, as they have in times past known the precise time of destruction. For example Noah, Abraham and Lot about Sodom, and Jonah about Nineveh.

Revelation 3:3 "If therefore thou shalt not watch I will come upon thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." Implying that those who are watching will know the hour.

Fact is that every word in the whole Bible is the words of Jesus. And many references tell us that there would come a time when God's prophets will know the time of the end, as they have in times past known the precise time of destruction. For example Noah, Abraham and Lot about Sodom, and Jonah about Nineveh.

Revelation 3:3 "If therefore thou shalt not watch I will come upon thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." Implying that those who are watching will know the hour.

Hello HSB,

Both you and I posted our equations on a different forum. I claimed that the date for the end of the world was actually over a thousand years from now.

Why is the date you posted more accurate than mine? My formulation is based on sound Biblical fact and there is nothing wrong with the maths.

Why does Revelation 3:3 support your date and not mine? I am watching so don't I know the hour?

Isn't there going to be a problem here when you cite particular verses. I can always claim that any particular verse supports my date?


Is it not the case that your formulation has the same problem as mine i.e. both lack proof?


(I understand that 'your formulation' is not actually yours as such. But I use the word 'your' as a shorthand . In other words, 'your' means that you understand the formulation)


Tut

Fact is that every word in the whole Bible is the words of Jesus. And many references tell us that there would come a time when God's prophets will know the time of the end, as they have in times past known the precise time of destruction. For example Noah, Abraham and Lot about Sodom, and Jonah about Nineveh.

Revelation 3:3 "If therefore thou shalt not watch I will come upon thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." Implying that those who are watching will know the hour.

If that's what it says, as a DIRECT translation, in the original Hebrew, at the time it was quoted---okay then.

My favorite joke: There was a Pope who was greatly loved by all of his followers, a man who led with gentleness, faith and wisdom. His passing was grieved by the entire world, Catholic or not. As the Pope approached the gates of heaven, it was Saint Peter who greeted him in a firm embrace.

"Welcome your holiness, your dedication and unselfishness in serving your fellow man during your life has earned you great stature in heaven. You may pass through the gates without delay and are granted free access to all parts of heaven."

"You are also granted an open door policy and may at your own discretion meet with any heavenly leader, including the Father without prior appointment. Is there anything which our holiness desire?

"Well, yes," the Pope replied. "I have often pondered some of the mysteries which have puzzled and confounded theologians through the ages. Are there perhaps any transcripts which recorded the actual conversations between God and the prophets of old? I would love to see what was actually said without the dimming of memories over time."

Saint Peter immediately ushered the Pope to the heavenly library and explained how to retrieve the various documents. The Pope was thrilled and settled down to review the history of man's relationship with God. Two years later a scream of anguish pierced the stacks of the library.

Immediately several of the saints and angels came running. There found the Pope pointing to a single word on a parchment, repeating over and over, "There's an 'R', there's an 'R' -- it's celebrate, not celibate!"

Amazing what a difference in translation or an error in copying can make to an entire religion, no?

The whole idea of the end of the world has never made sense to me. I think that if you live your life giving to others (as Jesus would) and caring for those around you, then the date makes absolutely no difference whatsoever.


Finally--No just god would make me wait 10 years to get pregnant, then end the world before I'm even at the 20 week mark where an ultrasound would show me the gender of the baby.

TUT
There are other issues involved besides the specific numbers of the 'date.'
[1] Motivation for posting this kind of 'prediction.' For example Ezekiel 3:17 "Son of man I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel. Therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me." Many people are not aware and simply will not acknowledge that a watchman can legitimately be interpreted to mean someone who is 'watching' in the Bible. Also that Israel is a metaphor for all the professing Christians in our day. Many who call themselves Christians simply do not accept the spiritual import of the so called Old Testament. They understand that Ezekiel is to be taken only in its literal and grammatical context. They do not accept the fact that every word of Ezekiel is literally the words of Jesus Christ (Jehovah God) to us today. Just as Jesus' words in the New Testament are. They believe that having harmony of the scriptures and rightly dividing the word of truth means to essentially ignore any spiritual message in the Old Testament. My motivation is to hammer home the concept that the Old Testament IS EQUALLY VALID today.

TUT
My motivation is to hammer home the concept that the Old Testament IS EQUALLY VALID today.

So... we should be stoning to death people who are divorced and remarried for committing adultery? And when a man dies, his brother should marry his widow? And adultery is okay as long as the father is drunk and the daughters are seducing him, right? And police shouldn't stop a man from trying to sacrifice his son on an altar, as long as the man says that God told him to do it, right?

I think that unless you're taking the ENTIRE Bible as literal and valid, you've got some selective ideas JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.

TUT
There are other issues involved besides the specific numbers of the 'date.'
[1] Motivation for posting this kind of 'prediction.' For example Ezekiel 3:17 "Son of man I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel. Therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me." Many people are not aware and simply will not acknowledge that a watchman can legitimately be interpreted to mean someone who is 'watching' in the Bible. Also that Israel is a metaphor for all the professing Christians in our day. Many who call themselves Christians simply do not accept the spiritual import of the so called Old Testament. They understand that Ezekiel is to be taken only in its literal and grammatical context. They do not accept the fact that every word of Ezekiel is literally the words of Jesus Christ (Jehovah God) to us today. Just as Jesus' words in the New Testament are. They believe that having harmony of the scriptures and rightly dividing the word of truth means to essentially ignore any spiritual message in the Old Testament. My motivation is to hammer home the concept that the Old Testament IS EQUALLY VALID today.


My question is how do 'other issues' point to that specific date. I would have said that the only way to get to a specific date is to calculate it. Unless, of course there is a date mentioned somewhere else in the Bible.

Tut

Fact is that every word in the whole Bible is the words of Jesus. And many references tell us that there would come a time when God's prophets will know the time of the end, as they have in times past known the precise time of destruction. For example Noah, Abraham and Lot about Sodom, and Jonah about Nineveh.

Revelation 3:3 "If therefore thou shalt not watch I will come upon thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." Implying that those who are watching will know the hour.

So, are you saying that whoever initially made this prediction is a prophet of God? Something doesn't add up here to me... Doesn't the story go that God spoke to Noah and told him to build the ark...

So did God speak to the guy who made up the May 21, 2011 date?

Maybe I need to read the bible again...

HSB,
While I applaud your courage to finally come on and stand up for your convictions, I still am waiting for an answer to my original question in another thread.
When May 22 rolls around and nothing has happened will you have to courage to come back on the forum and admit your mistake or will you, like a bad penny, simply disappear?
And one more question for you. This heresy of date predictions has been around since the 1880's or so, so what makes you think your leaders predictions is correct this time?

Tut and Depressed,
The big issue is that we need to continue to look at (watch) the Bible. Because God is actually speaking to us when we humble ourselves enough to say "You teach me through the Bible. In myself I'm not smart enough to apprehend the things that God's spirit teaches." Though the date comes from the Bible, we need to realize that our calculations are not the source of the date.

450donn
"This heresy of date predictions.. " By that quote you're really saying that your mind is already made up. I don't see any point to a discussion with someone whose mind is closed on the subject.

our calculations are not the source of the date.
Of course, they are!

I guess, in the interest of fairness, I need to add that at any time before 1988 the effort to predict the date of Christ's return should be considered heretical. And it was doomed to failure from the outset. Because God said that no one knows except God Himself (Jesus is fully God). But things have changed dramatically since 1988. The Church Age has ended with Satan installed officially in all the churches as ruler. The Great Tribulation has been in full swing since 1988 until now. And the seven seals spoken of in Revelation and in Daniel have been opened by Jesus. Revealing much new insight into words that have not changed for about 2000 years.

Not the actual source. Calculations are merely a tool. Understanding and interpretation are more directly connected to the idea of source.

I guess, in the interest of fairness, I need to add that at any time before 1988 the effort to predict the date of Christ's return should be considered heretical. And it was doomed to failure from the outset. Because God said that no one knows except God Himself (Jesus is fully God). But things have changed dramatically since 1988. The Church Age has ended with Satan installed officially in all the churches as ruler. The Great Tribulation has been in full swing since 1988 until now. And the seven seals spoken of in Revelation and in Daniel have been opened by Jesus. Revealing much new insight into words that have not changed for about 2000 years.

Where is 1988 mentioned in the bible? Can I please have the direct bible verse that outlines the implementation plan of the Satanical installation in all churches? When was such an upgrade (or downgrade) begun and completed? And were we supplied with end-user manuals?

I would appreciate your biblical information on this matter, as it is indeed concerning... my mother attends church, you see.

HSB comments: Not the actual source. Calculations are merely a tool. Understanding and interpretation are more directly connected to the idea of source.
It's only HC's (no one else's) calculations based on only his (no one else's) understanding and interpretation.

Why hasn't the (Christian) world jumped on HC's bandwagon? Probably fewer than one hundred people are aboard.

450donn
"This heresy of date predictions.." By that quote you're really saying that your mind is already made up. I don't see any point to a discussion with someone whose mind is closed on the subject.
So, exactly as I thought, you cannot support your theories with scripture. If as you claim my mind is made up, change it. Prove to me your theories are correct and mine is false.

Tut and Depressed,
The big issue is that we need to continue to look at (watch) the Bible. Because God is actually speaking to us when we humble ourselves enough to say "You teach me through the Bible. In myself I'm not smart enough to apprehend the things that God's spirit teaches." Though the date comes from the Bible, we need to realize that our calculations are not the source of the date.

450donn
"This heresy of date predictions.." By that quote you're really saying that your mind is already made up. I don't see any point to a discussion with someone whose mind is closed on the subject.

I mean no disrespect to your beliefs, so when I ask this, I'm truly searching for a direct answer from you if you will...

So when did you become a believer in all of this? HOW did you become a believer in all of this? Did God speak to you? Again, whoever claimed this date to be the end, is he considered to be a prophet of God? Do you consider yourself to be a prophet of God, or a follower of a prophet to God?

For me, I would need some serious proof to become a believer. One might ask or say to me "Well you can't see God, there is no proof, so how do you believe in God"-and my answer would be "God is in my heart, I feel Him, therefore I know..."

However, this theory is coming from some individual who probably conceived it from some other individual and so on and so forth... can he say the same?

This is a big deal, I can't somehow get it out of my head or my heart that someone is just screwing with people to see what may come of it; hence my initial post. This is scary. We know the world is going to come to an end, no one knows when, why try to predict a certain date and scare the shiz out of a bunch of people, or maybe even cause a catastrophe over making people believe that we only have two months left to live or the majority of us are going to die terrible slow deaths if we don't get accepted into God's Kingdom then(sorry for the run-on).

I know there are many people out there who truly believe in this theory; however, I would personally rather not know.

Sorry, I don't accept challenges to argue, or challenges to show who's smarter.

Dear Depressed,

If you'd really rather not know, then why the discussion ?

The classic response to bad news is that if you can't get them to stop spreading it, then try to kill the messenger, or at least silence him.

My advice is that if you don't like the news, just change the channel. You don't have to pay attention to it at all. Your privilege, and your choice.. . I'm just saying.

I guess, in the interest of fairness, I need to add that at any time before 1988 the effort to predict the date of Christ's return should be considered heretical. And it was doomed to failure from the outset. Because God said that no one knows except God Himself (Jesus is fully God). But things have changed dramatically since 1988. The Church Age has ended with Satan installed officially in all the churches as ruler. The Great Tribulation has been in full swing since 1988 until now. And the seven seals spoken of in Revelation and in Daniel have been opened by Jesus. Revealing much new insight into words that have not changed for about 2000 years.

REALLY? I don't even BELIEVE in Satan--how could he be the ruler of my church--especially since there IS no head of my church?

And when were those seals broken? What are your SPECIFIC signs that you're using here? I don't remember the sun becoming as sackcloth and the moon as blood, and there have been any NUMBER of great earthquakes---which one are you counting? And frankly, the first 4 seals could have been ANY time in the last 2000 years, because there has NEVER been a time with no war, no hunger, and no death.

Dear Depressed,

If you'd really rather not know, then why the discussion ?

The classic response to bad news is that if you can't get them to stop spreading it, then try to kill the messenger, or at least silence him.

My advice is that if you don't like the news, just change the channel. You don't have to pay attention to it at all. Your privilege, and your choice. .....I'm just saying.

Well thank you for that advice, I think, but it's kind of hard not knowing when you have a bunch of funked up people practically in your face spreading around the unthinkable bad news. Almost every thread I go into on here, you eventually show up and squeeze in the fact that the May 21 is just around the corner, so who cares about anything else.

I don't care what you think about my comment, you had absolutely no answer to my very respectful, polite question as to where and how your beliefs became about-which was the most important part of all of my last post . All I was trying to do was to learn more about your beliefs and how they came to be.

I would never follow you or your crowd of drunks who leave their families and belongings behind... but if you all are trying to recruit more people into your popular beliefs, you may want to try different tactics other than just blurting out that the world is going to end soon.

So my reply to you is, if you think we are all oblivous to your facts, why don't you simply change the channel and go somewhere where somebody may care. Just go away with all this junk and quit preaching your bull that you have absolutely no real basis on. You truly have no idea what you are doing to some people, including myself. That is what I meant when I said I'd rather not kow.

I really don't get the "thrust" of your post/question. All you're expressing is doubt and outrage (I guess).
So you doubt it, and you're outraged. So..

REALLY?? I don't even BELIEVE in Satan--how could he be the ruler of my church--especially since there IS no head of my church?

And when were those seals broken? What are your SPECIFIC signs that you're using here? I don't remember the sun becoming as sackcloth and the moon as blood, and there have been any NUMBER of great earthquakes---which one are you counting? And frankly, the first 4 seals could have been ANY time in the last 2000 years, because there has NEVER been a time with no war, no hunger, and no death.

ERROR: You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Synnen again.

LOl-you know, they were broken in that movie with Demi Moore in it. It actually came out in 1988-The Seventh Sign.
The Seventh Sign (http://www.angelfire.com/mn/nn/7thSign.html)

I want your "PROOF" that those seals have been broken, I guess.

Please tell me how you KNOW they were all broken, and why 1988 is the year you chose for Satan to be installed in churches.

If you can't even defend your beliefs with the facts as you know them, of COURSE people are going to doubt.

I want you to give me the instances that involve the breaking of the seals, and what EXACTLY those signs were.

I guess, if by some remote chance I'm still here on May 22, 2011 and nothing has happened... I'll be eating a lot of crow on this site. But not before then.

Y'know... what you personally want interests me not in the slightest. All the info is available on the internet free. All you have to do is apply yourself.

So... you're willing to come here, spout your theory, and then not back it up with your own words on the beliefs?

Sorry--I can't take you seriously if you can't support your own religious theories.

Don't take me seriously. See if I care.

Truth does not require consensus. It stands by itself.

I recommend the booklet "The End of The Church Age and After" by Harold Camping. It has all the details anyone could possibly want.

HSB, please type your replies in the Answer box below the post you are responding to. The Comment box is only for short comments that are not able to be quoted (or edited).

"I guess, if by some remote chance I'm still here on May 22, 2011 and nothing has happened...I'll be eating a lot of crow on this site. But not before then."

Didn't meant any disrespect; I just felt disrespected by your reply-which was uncalled for.

Well, if it makes you happy, I will be taking off work that day, keeping my kids home from school and praying to God that he will forgive us all for our sins and that he takes me and my family together...

But my point is, the fact that you are telling everyone that you don't care about what they think goes to show that you shouldn't have ever said anything at all to ever begin with. If you don't care, why share any of this with anyone at all? You've got me scared to death, hope you're happy-that's the only thing that makes sense now as to why you've shared all this and didn't even care in the first place.

I recommend the booklet "The End of The Church Age and After" by Harold Camping. It has all the details anyone could possibly want.

Of course, Camping has already proven himself to be a false prophet by making an earlier prediction that didn't happen, and according to "the words of Jesus" in the Torah he should have been stoned to death when his prediction didn't come true. But, true to form, HSB has declined to respond to this matter multiple times. By their fruits you shall know them...

You've got me scared to death, hope you're happy-that's the only thing that makes sense now as to why you've shared all this and didn't even care in the first place.

If you know it's pure hokum, there's no reason to be scared. The Lord is on your side, what can this kind of man-made nonsense do to you? Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the screwball date-setters. Stand on that and don't be scared.

But my point is, the fact that you are telling everyone that you don't care about what they think goes to show that you shouldn't have ever said anything at all to ever begin with. If you don't care, why share any of this with anyone at all? You've got me scared to death, hope you're happy-that's the only thing that makes sense now as to why you've shared all this and didn't even care in the first place.

Depressed,
What you need to do is to apply some of that incisive logic of yours to the Bible. You might be surprised what you find.

Total nonsense. The truth is not comforting at all. What's the point of defending an issue that's already been decided upon ? Would you really listen to facts ? I don't think so.

If you know it's pure hokum, there's no reason to be scared. The Lord is on your side, what can this kind of man-made nonsense do to you? Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the screwball date-setters. Stand on that and don't be scared.

You are right, I guess I'm just a what-if kind of person. The facts that are surrounding this thesis make me believe that God would not end the world in that form.

However, I don't put anything behind me that it could actually happen. My purpose to begin with was trying to understand it, but at this point, I don't even know what my bi*ch is anymore...

You all are exactly right, I need not to be scared as the world could end at any given moment. I guess just hearing about it is frightening to me because I'd rather not be counting down my days and hours to my last breath based on some man's theory- and be focusing more on important things that I know are REAL in my life.

Depressed,
What you need to do is to apply some of that incisive logic of yours to the Bible. You might be surprised what you find.

OH. MY. GOOSE.

The most HILARIOUS thing about that is that you don't even see the irony. I notice you didn't even BOTHER to comment on the parts of the Bible that no one uses anymore--like incest being okay and stoning divorced people to death if they ever have sex again.

If the Bible is valid, then it's valid in ALL of its pieces.

PS---how do you know that YOU are one of the 144,000?

Here come the reddies but... I've noticed that those that subscribe to the end of times in the very near future are often those whose current lives on this earth aren't very fulfilling and they would rather be taken away that continue on here. Just an observation and opinion.

OH. MY. GOOSE.

The most HILARIOUS thing about that is that you don't even see the irony. I notice you didn't even BOTHER to comment on the parts of the Bible that no one uses anymore--like incest being okay and stoning divorced people to death if they ever have sex again.

If the Bible is valid, then it's valid in ALL of its pieces.

PS---how do you know that YOU are one of the 144,000?

He didn't comment on most things. Maybe he should apply some of his incisive logic into our questions...

I'm not going to lie, I have never read the bible from beginning to end... just pieces from here to there...
144,000 people? How many people are in this world? Scary.
Maybe I shouldn't read the bible.

If the Bible is valid, then it's valid in ALL of its pieces.

I'll tell you what's really hilarious is that you make up your own rules on how to interpret the Bible. The Bible explicitly has verses that tell us exactly how to interpret it. It acts as its own interpreter and as its own dictionary... if you pay attention to its rules.

But of course you, and a lot of other people, are smarter than God.

Posted by HSB:
"Total nonsense. The truth is not comforting at all. What's the point of defending an issue that's already been decided upon ? Would you really listen to facts ? I don't think so. "

I don't think it's about listening to the facts as much as it is about getting the facts, and the fact that you can't or won't provide any makes no one believe you. But then again, as you previously stated, you don't care...

I'll tell you what's really hilarious is that you make up your own rules on how to interpret the Bible. The Bible explicitly has verses that tell us exactly how to interpret it. It acts as its own interpreter and as its own dictionary.....if you pay attention to its rules.

But of course you, and a lot of other people, are smarter than God.

Well, you certainly have inserted yourself as an authority in biblical interpretation, so please enlighten me...

How has Synnen misinterpreted the bible? About adultery, incest, et al? How should those verses be interpreted? Where are we told to interpret them.

He didn't comment on most things. Maybe he should apply some of his incisive logic into our questions...

I'm not gonna lie, I have never read the bible from beginning to end...just pieces from here to there...
144,000 people? how many people are in this world? Scary.
maybe I shouldn't read the bible.

A couple of times, Revelation mentions 144,000 Jews. We know the whole thing is symbolic because the lists of the tribes of Israel include at least one tribe that never existed, but the literalists conveniently overlook that fact. The number basically means nothing to the rest of us, so you can safely ignore it in this context.

The facts are available in much greater detail than I'm able to give. If you don't get them for yourself, don't blame me for that. Go to the Family Stations, Inc. website. And there are other websites with excellent source materials.

A couple of times, Revelation mentions 144,000 Jews. We know the whole thing is symbolic because the lists of the tribes of Israel include at least one tribe that never existed, but the literalists conveniently overlook that fact. The number basically means nothing to the rest of us, so you can safely ignore it in this context.

Oh I figured as much. Like I said, I'm no where near as knowledeable as most of you are about the bible, which could be one of the main reasons this whole thing is of concern to me. The last time I had bible study was a week ago. Prior to that, about 20 years ago as a young child...

I'll tell you what's really hilarious is that you make up your own rules on how to interpret the Bible.

Yeah, he reads it and looks at what it says. How silly is that??

Hey Depressed, for what it's worth, 5/21 is a Saturday-so you won't have to keep your kids from school. And the 22nd is the day of rest :)

Oh I figured as much. Like I said, I'm no where near as knowledeable as most of you are about the bible, which could be one of the main reasons this whole thing is of concern to me. The last time I had bible study was a week ago. Prior to that, about 20 years ago as a young child...

No sweat. Nobody is born knowing this stuff. We all start in the same place. The biggest difference between you and us is, we've been at this longer than you have. That's about it.

But there's a big similarity, too: you and we have more sense than to listen to nonsensical date-setting gibberish...

Hey Depressed, for what it's worth, 5/21 is a Saturday-so you won't have to keep your kids from school. And the 22nd is the day of rest :)

See I'm so worked up I don't even know what I'm saying anymore! :rolleyes:

Your caustic manner assures me that your request for enlightenment is utterly sincere. Obviously you take me for a fool. How can a fool teach you anything at all ? You're already much wiser than I am.

I'll tell you what's really hilarious is that you make up your own rules on how to interpret the Bible. The Bible explicitly has verses that tell us exactly how to interpret it. It acts as its own interpreter and as its own dictionary.....if you pay attention to its rules.

But of course you, and a lot of other people, are smarter than God.

And you do NOT make up your own rules on how to interpret the Bible? Why are YOUR rules more valid than MY rules?

It does NOT act as its own interpreter and dictionary, or there would not be religious schisms and there would not be constant bickering about what this or that verse means. If it was OBVIOUS what the Bible was saying, we'd ALL AGREE on what the Bible was saying.

But you, and a lot of other people, think you know EXACTLY what God is saying, so you think you're better than the people who use logic and questioning to arrive at their beliefs.

BY HBS:
"The facts are available in much greater detail than I'm able to give. If you don't get them for yourself, don't blame me for that. Go to the Family Stations, Inc. website. And there are other websites with excellent source materials"

Most or all of us have done that. The thing is, it's interesting to have you here, so as we are inquiring as to what it is/was personally to have made you become a believer and what you base your facts on because of that-you are declining any further action or detail.

I am not ASKING you to give me websites.

I am ASKING you to tell us what you believe and why it is that you, personally, believe it.

How hard is that to answer?

Your caustic manner assures me that your request for enlightenment is utterly sincere. Obviously you take me for a fool. How can a fool teach you anything at all ? You're already much wiser than I am.

No, HSB, I am asking you a sincere question. You seem extremely certain that you know how to interpret the bible, and what the bible is saying, and I truly want an answer.

You say that the whole bible is to be taken seriously. And you say that the verses Synnen references are merely her interpretation.

I have heard of the verses to which Synnen refers, and I have only ever heard them brushed off as "old testament". SO, you are a believer of the whole bible, and Synnen has brought forth statements to the bible, and you have said they are misinterpreted and the bible tells us how to interpret them.

I would like to know, then, how the bible tells us to interpret them, and how they are to be interpreted. I eagerly await your response.

More about this supposed prophet: Harold Camping - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Camping)

How has Synnen misinterpreted the bible? About adultery, incest, et al? How should those verses be interpreted? Where are we told to interpret them.

In case you don't remember the original question is about May 21, 2011. Not about sexuality or sexual sins. I'm not going to be drawn into a discussion about that subject on this thread.

I merely used his comment as a seg-way to show that the Bible gives us specific rules that should be used to interpret all parts of the Bible. The process is quite involved and it's not easy at all. It requires much time and prayer to get the truth.

seg-way
Segway = a two-wheeled conveyance
segue = a transition

In case you don't remember the original question is about May 21, 2011. Not about sexuality or sexual sins. I'm not going to be drawn into a discussion about that subject on this thread.

I merely used his comment as a seg-way to show that the Bible gives us specific rules that should be used to interpret all parts of the Bible. The process is quite involved and it's not easy at all. It requires much time and prayer to get the truth.
That's true, I guess we should make sure the OP is okay with you answering these questions.

Depressed, would you be okay if we asked HSB this question?

ERROR: You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Wondergirl again.

Tee Hee

Thanks for that clarification. I already knew that. But I dummed it down in case other readers didn't.

ERROR: You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Wondergirl again.
We're interested in truth here.

Thanks for that clarification. I already knew that. But I dummed it down in case other readers didn't.

Yes, of course you did.

Dumbed, not dummed

Thanks for that clarification. I already knew that. But I dummed it down in case other readers didn't.

We really appreciate you dumBing it down for us laymen :)

That's true, I guess we should make sure the OP is okay with you answering these questions.

Depressed, would you be okay if we asked HSB this question?

:) Sure go for it! I'm still waiting for some answers too.

:) Sure go for it! I'm still waiting for some answers too.
AWESOME! My sincerest thanks for allowing me to ask this question!

HeadStrongBoy:

You say that the whole bible is to be taken seriously. And you say that the verses Synnen references are merely her interpretation.

I have heard of the verses to which Synnen refers, and I have only ever heard them brushed off as "old testament". SO, you are a believer of the whole bible, and Synnen has brought forth statements to the bible, and you have said they are misinterpreted and the bible tells us how to interpret them.

I would like to know, then, how the bible tells us to interpret them, and how they are to be interpreted. I eagerly await your response.

Quoting southamerica:
That's true, I guess we should make sure the OP is okay with you answering these questions.
Depressed, would you be okay if we asked HSB this question? Sure go for it! I'm still waiting for some answers too

I don't really need the asker's permission. I've read the Posting Rules. And I believe it's in my own best interests to stick to the original subject within very narrow limits, based on my own discretion. And I repeat that I have no intention of discussing any aspect of sexuality on this particular thread.

Obviously you're expecting some kind of an answer. But you'll have to make it a question that's relevant to the subject of May 21, 2011.

I merely used his comment as a seg-way to show that the Bible gives us specific rules that should be used to interpret all parts of the Bible. The process is quite involved and it's not easy at all. It requires much time and prayer to get the truth.

So... you're telling me that MY time and MY prayers and MY reading of the Bible are incorrect in interpreting all parts of the Bible?

Why?

Did God come down and talk to you from a burning bush and tell YOU exactly how to do this interpreting of the Bible that is the only truth? If it wasn't GOD, in words that are not open to interpretation---how do you KNOW that your version of interpretation isn't just another interpretation of how to interpret the Bible?

And frankly, if it's a guide that is supposed to tell EVERYONE how to live, then why does it take that much work to interpret to begin with? I mean, God gives people a book that they can use to know how to love him and worship him--but it's open to INTERPRETATION? That doesn't sound very god-like to me. If God truly loved mankind and wanted them all saved, he'd give them a book that helped them live the way he wanted them to and wouldn't wrap it up in dilemmas and mysteries.

Okay okay okay. May 21st, 2011, it is.

About previous predictions of the end of the world, you made a comment as to the Satanic installation in churches. The following questions were asked:

And when were those seals broken? What are your SPECIFIC signs that you're using here? I don't remember the sun becoming as sackcloth and the moon as blood, and there have been any NUMBER of great earthquakes---which one are you counting?

Can't wait to hear your answers.

I don't really need the asker's permission. I've read the Posting Rules. And I believe it's in my own best interests to stick to the original subject within very narrow limits, based on my own discretion. And I repeat that I have no intention of discussing any aspect of sexuality on this particular thread.

Obviously you're expecting some kind of an answer. But you'll have to make it a question that's relevant to the subject of May 21, 2011.

Fine. My points weren't about human sexuality, anyway. They were about the fact that those are DIRECTIVES from the Old Testament that are only followed by very few religious sects--and those sects are generally condemned by others for being "savage".

My RELEVANT question is this: Why are SOME parts of the Bible used as ABSOLUTES and other parts IGNORED ENTIRELY? This is relevant because you say that your belief uses the WHOLE Bible. If so, do you follow ALL directives in the Bible, or are you a hypocrite and follow only the parts you believe---which would negate your whole argument about 5/21/11.

HeadStrongBoy:

So when did you become a believer in all of this? HOW did you become a believer in all of this? Did God speak to you? Again, whoever claimed this date to be the end, is he considered to be a prophet of God? Do you consider yourself to be a prophet of God, or a follower of a prophet to God?

HeadStrongBoy:

So when did you become a believer in all of this? HOW did you become a believer in all of this? Did God speak to you? Again, whoever claimed this date to be the end, is he considered to be a prophet of God? Do you consider yourself to be a prophet of God, or a follower of a prophet to God?

ERROR: You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to southamerica again.

Thank you;)

Quoting HeadStrongBoy:
I merely used his comment as a seg-way to show that the Bible gives us specific rules that should be used to interpret all parts of the Bible. The process is quite involved and it's not easy at all. It requires much time and prayer to get the truth. So... you're telling me that MY time and MY prayers and MY reading of the Bible are incorrect in interpreting all parts of the Bible?
Why?
Did God come down and talk to you from a burning bush and tell YOU exactly how to do this interpreting of the Bible that is the only truth? If it wasn't GOD, in words that are not open to interpretation---how do you KNOW that your version of interpretation isn't just another interpretation of how to interpret the Bible?
And frankly, if it's a guide that is supposed to tell EVERYONE how to live, then why does it take that much work to interpret to begin with? I mean, God gives people a book that they can use to know how to love him and worship him--but it's open to INTERPRETATION? That doesn't sound very god-like to me. If God truly loved mankind and wanted them all saved, he'd give them a book that helped them live the way he wanted them to and wouldn't wrap it up in dilemmas and mysteries.

In my opinion the laws of moral living that the Bible gives for all of humanity (saved and un-saved)... for the purposes of this discussion... should be considered a separate issue. I say that because the Bible is crystal clear that our efforts to obey those commandments have no effect on our salvation.

The subject of this thread is the beginning of Judgment Day, May 21, 2011. Judgment Day is an integral part of God's greater plan of salvation. Being saved, or rather becoming saved is NOT a function of how moral we live, or of how moral we are. Salvation and judgment are entirely in the hands of God. And no human individual has any choice in the matter. All of us begin as sinners. Only God's grace grants any saved person a new soul (heart, or spirit).

FYI -- from one of HSB's early posts;: "I am a 60 year male from America. Born in Germany. Never married."

the Bible is crystal clear that our efforts to obey those commandments have no effect on our salvation.

Being saved, or rather becoming saved is NOT a function of how moral we live, or of how moral we are. Salvation and judgment are entirely in the hands of God. All of us begin as sinners. Only God's grace grants any saved person a new soul (heart, or spirit).
I'm with you so far (with the above snippets).

What's that got to do with anything ? Can't stop the message ? Try to expose the messenger's personal weaknessess ?

P.S. That's 62 years.

In my opinion the laws of moral living that the Bible gives for all of humanity (saved and un-saved).....for the purposes of this discussion....should be considered a separate issue. I say that because the Bible is crystal clear that our efforts to obey those commandments have no effect on our salvation.

The subject of this thread is the beginning of Judgment Day, May 21, 2011. Judgment Day is an integral part of God's greater plan of salvation. Being saved, or rather becoming saved is NOT a function of how moral we live, or of how moral we are. Salvation and judgment are entirely in the hands of God. And no human individual has any choice in the matter. All of us begin as sinners. Only God's grace grants any saved person a new soul (heart, or spirit).

Ok... then how did the end date in October come about? Can you elaborate more on that? That's when all the "unwanted" people get sucked into the ground? I'm not trying to be funny either, I just want to get educated on the facts behind the dates between May 21 and Oct (I forget the exact day in Oct).

What's that got to do with anything ? Can't stop the message ? Try to expose the messenger's personal weaknessess ?

What weaknesses? We here know each other; it's valid to know who you are. If you are a teenager (HSBOY), the import of your posts would be entirely different than that of a person who is 62. As a older adult with a great deal of life experience, you have apparently given great thought to your beliefs.

HSB Please:

I'm not trying to change the subject, I believe this is all tied in with May 21, 2011.
Can you help me understand?

From earlier:Ok... then how did the end date in October come about? Can you elaborate more on that? That's when all the "unwanted" people get sucked into the ground? I'm not trying to be funny either, I just want to get educated on the facts behind the dates between May 21 and Oct (I forget the exact day in Oct).

From earlier:Ok...then how did the end date in October come about? Can you elaborate more on that? That's when all the "unwanted" people get sucked into the ground? I'm not trying to be funny either, I just want to get educated on the facts behind the dates between May 21 and Oct (I forget the exact day in Oct).
HSB has left the building.

If I remember correctly, the May date is the Rapture when all true Christians will be gathered in the air and taken to heaven. The Oct. date is the beginning of the Final Judgment.

From Wikipedia (Harold Camping - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Camping)) --

[Harold] Camping teaches that a Biblical calendar has been hidden according to Daniel 12:9, Revelation 22:10 detailing the imminent end of the world (with alleged Biblical evidence pointing to the date for the Rapture as May 21, 2011); of the "end of the church age" (which asserts that churches are no longer the vehicle used by God for salvation, 1 Peter 4:17); and of predestination (Ephesians 1:4-5), according to which God determined before the beginning of the world which individuals are to be saved.

Camping's Biblical study regarding time and Christ's second coming is based on the cycles of:

* Jewish feast days in the Hebrew calendar, as described in the Old Testament,
* the lunar month calendar (1 month = 29.53059 days), and
* the Gregorian calendar (1 year = 365.2425 days).

He projects these into modern times and combines the results with other information in the Bible.

Depressed

Ok... then how did the end date in October come about? Can you elaborate more on that? That's when all the "unwanted" people get sucked into the ground? I'm not trying to be funny either, I just want to get educated on the facts behind the dates between May 21 and Oct (I forget the exact day in Oct).

Revelation 9:10 says:"And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. And their power was to hurt men five months."

John 21:11 says:"Simon Peter went up and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three. And for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken."

2 Corinthians 2:16 says:"To the one we are the savour death unto death. And to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things ?"

The interpretation is that the scorpions represent the saved people who've been raptured. Those who have not been taken up, but who believed they should have been, will be "weeping and gnashing their teeth." They'll be angry at God. And the realization that they have been left behind will hurt like the sting of a scorpion. This psychic pain will go on for five months until Oct. 21, 2011. Then 2 Peter 3:10 and 12 will occur. "The earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

The number 153 fishes refers to those in the net that was not broken, those who have been raptured. 153 is the actual number of days from May 21, 2011 until Oct. 21, 2011. Even though the saved people will be in heaven during those 5 months, the entire program of salvation/judgment is yet not complete. That's what 2 Corinthians 2:16 refers to. The completion of judgment.

Matthew 24:36, 'Of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my father only.' "

Is the above a lie then?

NeedKarma
[QUOTE]Matthew 24:36, 'Of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my father only.' Is the above a lie then?

No. It's not a lie. God cannot lie.

The problem is in how we choose to look at that statement. The Bible gives us very specific rules that tell us exactly how we must approach our search for truth from God's word. First of all... HUMILITY. In other words... Dear Lord... you teach me, in myself I am ignorant.

Next 1 Corinthians 2:13 "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the holy Ghost teacheth. Comparing spiritual things with spiritual." In other words we must compare different parts of the Bible to make certain we have harmony among all the verses that offer facts about the same subject. A quite arduous task. And there are several other rules also.

For the sake of brevity I'll summarize. The statement that no man knows was more than true during the Church Age. In fact Jesus said that, in effect, it was none of their business. Acts 1:7 says "it is not for you to know..." The reason given is that their task was to get out the gospel, and don't be distracted by these side issues. But all of that changed in 1988. Now God has removed the seals from the Bible and much new insight is possible. Those who God plans to save, and perhaps some others who also studied the Bible, not only are able to know but they must know so that they can warn the world. A warning trumpet must give a clear sound, with facts.

However, after 1988, those who will continue to believe church teachings will continue to expect Christ to come "as a thief in the night," that is unexpectedly. So for them, that particular verse remains as true as ever. They refuse to look at the whole Bible. And they refuse to follow the rules. So for those who will not be saved... they cannot (or will not) know.

HSB- Where did 1988 come about? And what seals have been removed? Where did the new information come from that was previously unavailable? Was it new verses? A prophet?

What was different from 1987 to 1988 that made the bible different to interpret?

I'll tell you what's really hilarious is that you make up your own rules on how to interpret the Bible. The Bible explicitly has verses that tell us exactly how to interpret it. It acts as its own interpreter and as its own dictionary.....if you pay attention to its rules.

But of course you, and a lot of other people, are smarter than God.
But you want US to read the ranting from some wacko like Camping or what ever his name is? Come on HSB get real. Read the bible, and if you are not strong enough to understand the true and complete word of God then maybe YOU should get some professional help in this matter. You continually recite the mantra from the likes of this Camping fella and will not defend it. So I assume you really do not believe it either.

Depressed


Revelation 9:10 says:"And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. And their power was to hurt men five months."

John 21:11 says:"Simon Peter went up and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three. And for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken."

2 Corinthians 2:16 says:"To the one we are the savour death unto death. And to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things ?"

The interpretation is that the scorpions represent the saved people who've been raptured.

According to the previous verses, the creatures so described came out of the Abyss, and their king is named Abaddon in Hebrew, Apollyon in Greek, both names for Satan. So the saved people who have been raptured are ruled by Satan.


Those who have not been taken up, but who believed they should have been, will be "weeping and gnashing their teeth." They'll be angry at God. And the realization that they have been left behind will hurt like the sting of a scorpion. This psychic pain will go on for five months until Oct. 21, 2011. Then 2 Peter 3:10 and 12 will occur. "The earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Uh, sure. So it's legitimate to just grab a verse from here and a verse from there and build something on it and call it proper interpretation. Because that's exactly what the above does.


The number 153 fishes refers to those in the net that was not broken, those who have been raptured.

Uh, sure. It couldn't possibly refer to, oh, I don't know, FISH?? This miraculous catch was what confirmed to the disciples that it really was Jesus talking to them. I have no idea why that isn't enough.


153 is the actual number of days from May 21, 2011 until Oct. 21, 2011. Even though the saved people will be in heaven during those 5 months, the entire program of salvation/judgment is yet not complete. That's what 2 Corinthians 2:16 refers to. The completion of judgment.

If this stuff doesn't prove conclusively that context means nothing in Camping's (and HSB's) system, I don't know what will. It's easy to grab words from here and there as desired and build something that fits your preconceived notions, but that doesn't make it right. And this approach is so far beyond ridiculous, I'm not sure English even has a word for it.

NeedKarma
[QUOTE]

For the sake of brevity I'll summarize. The statement that no man knows was more than true during the Church Age. In fact Jesus said that, in effect, it was none of their business. Acts 1:7 says "it is not for you to know..." The reason given is that their task was to get out the gospel, and don't be distracted by these side issues. But all of that changed in 1988. Now God has removed the seals from the Bible and much new insight is possible. Those who God plans to save, and perhaps some others who also studied the Bible, not only are able to know but they must know so that they can warn the world. A warning trumpet must give a clear sound, with facts.

However, after 1988, those who will continue to believe church teachings will continue to expect Christ to come "as a thief in the night," that is unexpectedly. So for them, that particular verse remains as true as ever. They refuse to look at the whole Bible. And they refuse to follow the rules. So for those who will not be saved... they cannot (or will not) know.

So I go to church now, along with my family-will God look down on me for that? Since I clearly have not studied the bible, is that a good chance that He will not accept me? What about my children? They are very young in age, one of them are just learning to read. Should I have started reading the bible to them when they were babies? I'm not being sarcastic here...

If always having God in our hearts, and praying to him, and spreading the word of God (although not in biblical terms) to others, but just by believing and following-would God accept me and my family?

I've done some pretty effed up things in my life-sinful things. Will God forgive me? How will I know?

These are mainly hypothetical questions; however, how does one prepare for something like this? Is it too late for some?

Depressed


Revelation 9:10 says:"And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. And their power was to hurt men five months."

John 21:11 says:"Simon Peter went up and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three. And for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken."

2 Corinthians 2:16 says:"To the one we are the savour death unto death. And to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things ?"

The interpretation is that the scorpions represent the saved people who've been raptured. Those who have not been taken up, but who believed they should have been, will be "weeping and gnashing their teeth." They'll be angry at God. And the realization that they have been left behind will hurt like the sting of a scorpion. This psychic pain will go on for five months until Oct. 21, 2011. Then 2 Peter 3:10 and 12 will occur. "The earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

The number 153 fishes refers to those in the net that was not broken, those who have been raptured. 153 is the actual number of days from May 21, 2011 until Oct. 21, 2011. Even though the saved people will be in heaven during those 5 months, the entire program of salvation/judgment is yet not complete. That's what 2 Corinthians 2:16 refers to. The completion of judgment.

YOUR KIDDING, RIGHT?
How the heck do you get the raptured church out of scorpions, one of the plagues that God sends to the world AFTER he has taken his church out of the world?? Are you making this stuff up as you go along?

Southamerica
HSB- Where did 1988 come about? And what seals have been removed? Where did the new information come from that was previously unavailable? Was it new verses? A prophet?

[1] No new verses. Revelation 22:18 and 19. In other words nothing is to be added to the Bible, and nothing is to be taken away from it. Since the completion of the Bible about 2000 years ago God has given no more supernatural revelations. No more visions, no more voices, no dreams, no healings, no physical miracles of any kind.
[2] Daniel 12:9 says:"And he said Go thy way Daniel. For the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end." Revelation 8:1says:"And when He had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour." That was the first day of The Great Tribulation in 1988.
[3] The Biblical development (or proof-if you prefer) is somewhat complex. Right now I'm too tired to work on this anymore. But if you don't want to wait for me, the information is available FREE from Family Stations, Inc. Ask for the book by Harold Camping called The End of The church Age and After.

ERROR: You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to dwashbur again.

Thank you for your clarifications! It was like ready English!

southamerica

Right now I'm too tired to work on this anymore. But if you don't want to wait for me, the information is available FREE from Family Stations, Inc. Ask for the book by Harold Camping called The End of The church Age and After.

Please, before you go, if you can suggest-how does someone who it took over a quarter of their lifetime to really accept Jesus into their heart-have a chance to be accepted by God when this day comes? (I'm using this as an example)
What criteria must be met to be accepted?
I'm just asking your opinion-nothing more.

I guess I'm still not seeing how 1988 comes into play? I went to the website briefly and as far as I can tell the date is arbitrary?

I went to college for literature, and it's amazing how a class of 20 students can write 20 different papers about 1 book... all interpreting it differently. In many cases you'd swear they were reading different books!

I am still curious as to which verse tells us how to interpret the bible...

(Authors rarely tell you how, audience interpretation is part of the magic of literature)

I am still curious as to which verse tells us how to interpret the bible...

(Authors rarely tell you how, audience interpretation is part of the magic of literature)

First of all, you must take what people like HSB are saying as false teachings. He is not willing to come on here to defend his beliefs, so I have no other options. Now as to how to interpretate the Bible question. Take it exactly as it says. There is no mystery in what the Bible says. I subscribe that God inspired the words written in the Bible. So it is a road map of how to live, how to treat others and how you need to prepare your soul for the soon coming of out Lord. As warning to HSB and others, I think they need to read Revelation 22:18-21. God clearly tells us exactly will happen to those that spread false teachings.

No more visions, no more voices, no dreams, no healings, no pyhsical miracles of any kind? No wonder you subscribe to the BS that you do... you obvisouly grew up in a church where your head was shoved down a hole. The bible tells us clearly that these signs will follow those that believe... if you're not seeing those signs in the ministry you belong to... I suggest you hook up with some people that actually have faith.

Acts 2:17
"In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams."

[1] No new verses. Revelation 22:18 and 19. In other words nothing is to be added to the Bible, and nothing is to be taken away from it. Since the completion of the Bible about 2000 years ago God has given no more supernatural revelations. No more visions, no more voices, no dreams, no healings, no physical miracles of any kind.
Which Bible? The Hebrew Bible? The KJV? The Wycliffe version? The Gutenberg? The English Revised Version? The New International version? Comparisons between the different versions of the Bible (and when you start counting all the translations to all the world languages, there are HUNDREDS of versions of the Bible) show the average similarity score to only be around 60%. That means that ONLY 60% of the Bible is EXACTLY the same from version to version, translation to translation. So which one are YOU using? Which one is the "right" Bible?
PS--the Bible wasn't completed 2000 years ago--not even CLOSE. The first Bible transcriptions weren't really put in place until the middle ages--somewhere around 400 CE, if I remember correctly. Before that, there were MULTIPLE oral traditions, but no one "Bible". And even then, they didn't include ALL of the oral traditions into the Bible... or even some of the written. That's what the Catholic Apocrypha are--and the Dead Sea Scrolls as well. So--closer to 1600 years, not 2000. And if you tell me that 400 years doesn't make a difference, I'll start REALLY doubting your ability to predict any date.

[2] Daniel 12:9 says:"And he said Go thy way Daniel. For the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end." Revelation 8:1says:"And when He had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour." That was the first day of The Great Tribulation in 1988. And that's based on--what, again? You still haven't told me how you've figured out the seals have been broken and that 1988 is the year that Satan took over the church. Still don't remember a sackcloth sun or a blood moon.

[3] The Biblical development (or proof-if you prefer) is somewhat complex. Right now I'm too tired to work on this anymore. But if you don't want to wait for me, the information is available FREE from Family Stations, Inc. Ask for the book by Harold Camping called The End of The church Age and After.

The development of the Bible IS very complex---it stretches for about 2500 years in total development. MOST of the development is oral tradition. Ever play telephone? How often is the phrase at the end the same as the starting phrase? All it takes is changing ONE WORD to change an entire meaning.

I think this whole thing is unsupportable by the Bible in the same way that saying that it was okay to enslave blacks for hundreds of years because Ham looked on Noah naked was unsupportable. When people not brainwashed look at it with logic, the whole thing is ludicrous.

You have yet to post anything that I can even take seriously, because you've taken random pieces of the Bible, stuck them together, and called them "prophecy". Any idiot can do that. Give me a day, and I'll give you my own prediction on something silly as well.

On second thought---I'm not wasting my time doing something like that.

Basically, your arguments have yet to convince me of anything but that May 21st will be just another day.

My anniversary is on May 27. I plan to party like it's the end of the world, and I'm sure I'll live to see that day and many others after it.

In short, I'll be here on May 27, and now that all of you have been told, I expect a congrats on 16 years of marriage from all of you, including Mr. Headstrongboy. :)

My anniversary is on May 27.
Ours is May 28 (so I wouldn't be a June bride). Forty-four years. Let's party!

May 22nd is a Sunday. Either a lot of people are going to be in church that day... because they realize they need to learn a little more about God... or there are going to be a lot of people MISSING from church that day. As a born again Christian, I'm looking forward to and fully expecting to be here for my birthday in June.

I'll forget, so happy anniversary now.

Ours is May 28 (so I wouldn't be a June bride). Forty-four years. Let's party!!

Mine would have been June 14, thirty-one years... at least I don't have to remember that date any more!

PS--the Bible wasn't completed 2000 years ago--not even CLOSE. The first Bible transcriptions weren't really put in place until the middle ages--somewhere around 400 CE, if I remember correctly. Before that, there were MULTIPLE oral traditions, but no one "Bible". And even then, they didn't include ALL of the oral traditions into the Bible....or even some of the written. That's what the Catholic Apocrypha are--and the Dead Sea Scrolls as well. So--closer to 1600 years, not 2000. And if you tell me that 400 years doesn't make a difference, I'll start REALLY doubting your ability to predict any date.

Well, yes and no. The earliest complete copy of the NT we have dates from about AD 350, but we have examples of collections of books from much earlier than that, including portions of the gospels from the second century. The actual canon was finalized in the fourth century, but all the writings themselves were completed before the end of the first century.

That said, I quite agree with you about HSB's methodology (or lack thereof, as the case may be). Here's an old example that you may or may not have heard of:

"Judas...went away and hanged himself." Matt. 27:5

"Go, and do thou likewise." Luke 10:37

"What you are about to do, do quickly." John 13:27

A prophetic message for Camping's followers??

Mine would have been June 14
Flag Day.

Flag Day.

Yup.

I don't get my 20 week ultrasound until June 3rd. THEREFORE, since no god is cruel enough to send Judgment Day before I get to see the gender of my baby, and NEITHER is that god cruel enough to end the entire world four days before my due date---I don't believe it.

It took 10 years to get pregnant, and I'm fully convinced it was a miracle. NO WAY is the world ending before I can hold my baby.

WHEN those people are eating their hats on May 22, I hope they realize that they have been led astray by false prophecies and look into their hearts to find the true way to their god.

Syn...
When the end comes I hope I will be in my garden worshipping nature and know exactly where my son is at that particular time, or preferably have him by my side. I don't think he and I would be far apart if we knew something was going to happen. There will be warnings, I am sure.

My heart tells me you will be holding your baby, see him/her grow up and have as much pleasure as I have in my son. Past tense is not in my vocabulary; I come from a long maternal line of women who believe life goes on no matter what.

Tick

Syn....
When the end comes I hope I will be in my garden worshipping nature and know exactly where my son is at that particular time, or preferrably have him by my side. I dont think he and I would be far apart if we knew something was going to happen. There will be warnings, I am sure.

My heart tells me you will be holding your baby, see him/her grow up and have as much pleasure as i have in my son. Past tense is not in my vocabulary; I come from a long maternal line of women who believe life goes on no matter what.

tick


Don't worry you'll still be here on this earth worshiping your god, mother nature. According to the bible only those who's hearts are firmly in accordance with the God of the universe will be snatched away in the twinkling of an eye. That means there will be no warning for those both taken or left behind.

Don't worry you'll still be here on this earth worshiping your god, mother nature. According to the bible only those who's hearts are firmly in accordance with the God of the universe will be snatched away in the twinkling of an eye. That means there will be no warning for those both taken or left behind.

Wow, you all put a heck of a lot of importance on one book.

Most of you are saying that this May thing is bull, others are saying it's true, then there are the holier then thou that think only they'll be saved, so it's no big deal.

If the nutcases are right and the world ends this year, well, not much you can do. If the God of the bible is as cruel as some of you seem to think, then I guess only a few people will end up in heaven, the rest of us will burn. If those people are right I think they'll be in for a big surprise when they find out they aren't as righteous in the eyes of their God as they seem to think they are.

Wow, you all put a heck of a lot of importance on one book.
Actually, it's only one VERSE, and very vague at that.

Don't worry you'll still be here on this earth worshiping your god, mother nature. According to the bible only those who's hearts are firmly in accordance with the God of the universe will be snatched away in the twinkling of an eye. That means there will be no warning for those both taken or left behind.

I had once considered Wiccan, and actually joined a group of women, thank god they were all women who appreciate nature in all its glory under the sun. In the old age, all tribes were matriarchal. Native northern tribes are still matriarchal. Which means basically that all natural gods were worhsipped, gods of the earth, sky, water and air. I think that is a wonderful way to worship the universe. I don't impinge on any one's worship, whatever they choose to do, am ambivalent regarding that aspect of our god laws. Whatever way one wants to live, and under what god is perfectly up to them.

Tick

Why worship the creation when you can worship the creator

Why do you have to worship nature to appreciate it? I'm curious... do you actually think "nature" is an intelligent personality... or are you just overzealous about your appreciation for it?

Why do you have to worship nature to appreciate it? I guess the same can be said for any god.

TUT
There are other issues involved besides the specific numbers of the 'date.'
.



Hi HSB,

Yes, there are other numbers besides number relating to .'the date'.
I found the website NK provided which relates to 21st May 2011.

Under the first heading of "Absolute Proof" is the "one day is a thousand year" quote. As I said in earlier posts taking this literally creates all sorts of problems and inconsistencies.

The next 'proof' presented appears to be related to God's purpose and the number 3.

To quote

The number 3 signifies God's purpose when the Bible writes about Christ being crucified, the number 3 is featured about 15 times: 3 crosses, 3 apostles, 3 denials by Peter, etc .All of these are emphasizing that it was absolutely God's purpose that Christ be crucified.

The number 3 was also significant in my formulation, but from my point of view 3 has nothing to do with purpose. When the Bible talks about Christ being crucified it is talking about doubt and uncertainty in the first instance.

(1)"Why has thou forsaken me?"
(2) 3 denials by Peter
(3) The rooster crowing 3 times before the dawn.

The problem with Mr. Campings and my formulations is they BOTH lack proof.

Tut

Why do you have to worship nature to appreciate it? I'm curious...do you actually think "nature" is an intelligent personality...or are you just overzealous about your appreciation for it?

Ummm, are you directing your post at mine regarding worshipping nature? You didn't quote so I am wondering if it is me.

If it is, as a mature woman, no I don't think nature is an intellgent personality. They are only plants coming up and dying off in their order of the seasons. Not overzealous of my appreciation of nature, just thankful that we have four seasons to appreciate all that it offers.

Tick

Yes, it was directed to you. I don't know how to do the "quotation" of people's posts.

Don't read into my question too much... I was really just curious about how you really view nature.

Yes, it was directed to you. I don't know how to do the "quotation" of people's posts.
Did we tell you how to get off that skin and onto the friendlier one we are on?

So I wonder if the night of May 20th, they will set their alarms to get up, or just sleep in knowing there is no reason to get up since the world is going to end.

So I wonder if the night of May 20th, they will set their alarms to get up, or just sleep in knowing there is no reason to get up since the world is going to end.

I plan to sleep in, because it's a Saturday. :)

Hopefully by then all this damn snow will have melted and I can finally enjoy the great outdoors again.

I have to get some yard work done, I have company coming in June. AMHD company. I'm giddy.

So I wonder if the night of May 20th, they will set their alarms to get up, or just sleep in knowing there is no reason to get up since the world is going to end.
I think it will be a Saturday, so at least they won't miss work.

I have read all posts and would like to say a few things.

NOTE:
I am not religious so I am not partial to either side of any argument.

I can say; without a doubt, I see a lot of people here who care. I also, see a lot of argument regarding beliefs and a lot of superfluous topics to disregard the OP's topic, whether for fun or for boredom of the topic stance.

HSB, you dodge questions with cunning counters and well thought out phrases to throw the topic. You have yet to answer a question regarding your beliefs and how they came to be. You acknowledge them; which in noble, but you dance around them (like a coward).

Depressed in MO, you seem like a loving parent and a very caring individual. You need to believe in that that has gotten you were you are today. Do not indulge yourself into the sayings and blabbering of an individual who cannot; for the life of him, explain himself. Go with what you know. Go with what you believe. Do not waste your time with the rest.

My thoughts are superfluous to the topic, as I stated before, I am not religious. May 20th just gives me another reason to drink and enjoy my life!

ITstudent2006]... HSB, you dodge questions with cunning counters and well thought out phrases to throw the topic. You have yet to answer a question regarding your beliefs and how they came to be. You acknowledge them; which in noble, but you dance around them (like a coward).

Your observation may well be accurate. I do not look at my answers here as an opportunity to display my personal beliefs. I am not any kind of an authority. My mission is to point people into the Bible as the authority. And to warn them that May 21, 2011 will be the Day of Judgment.

I leave evaluation of personal issues to those who are wiser and more powerful than I.

Y I do not look at my answers here as an opportunity to display my personal beliefs


And to warn them that May 21, 2011 will be the Day of Judgment.

Your first quote clearly says you are not here to spread your belief and that your answers should not be sought after as such. However, your second quote (which closely followed the first) clearly states your personal opinion/belief.

So please, enlighten me. You have talked yourself into a huge circle I am ever more excited to see you dance out of! Dance puppet... dance!

Depressed in MO: Furthermore, if it is indeed going to end then, how do you know YOU are going to be accepted by God??

The answer to this particular question is... I don't know for sure whether God will accept me. But my knowing my personal status with God is not the issue.

The really important thing is what does the Bible say about how we can become saved.

ITstudent2006: So please, enlighten me. You have talked yourself into a huge circle I am ever more excited to see you dance out of! Dance puppet... dance!

Let me be even more explicit. I do not intend to enlighten anyone. I am not a guru or a spiritual leader of any kind. But I do have a sense of mission. The Bible gives ample reference, and many passages, that when understood in a particular way... clearly point to May 21, 2011 as the Day of Judgment. I do not see it as my mission to convince you at all. God does all the convincing, or not.

However, to the best of my ability I'll try to answer any specific question you may have about the Bible, and references in it that point to May 21, 2011. There are many.

Your observation may well be accurate. I do not look at my answers here as an opportunity to display my personal beliefs.
But you HAVE displayed your personal beliefs. What we all would like to know is why did you discard what you used to believe and decide to embrace those new beliefs?

Quoting HeadStrongBoy:
Your observation may well be accurate. I do not look at my answers here as an opportunity to display my personal beliefs. But you HAVE displayed your personal beliefs. What we all would like to know is why did you discard what you used to believe and decide to embrace those new beliefs?

Thanks for your interest. Much as I'm flattered, I'm not about to begin writing my auto-biography here. The important thing is... how does the Bible show that May 21, 2011 will be the Day of Judgment ? And how can I escape God's wrath ?

Thanks for your interest.
Your quoting system is messed up.

Depressed: The way I was always taught, no one knows/will know when the end is near, where do you and your people get the facts? What do you base it on?

Ecclesiastes 8:5 says:"Whoso keepeth the commandment shall feel no evil thing. And a wise man's heart discerneth (shall know) both time and judgment." These words are from the mouth of God Himself. Though He gave them to Solomon who turned out to be an unsaved person at the end of his life. The controversy, as I see it, centers on the issue of whether "time and judgment" can be applied to May 21, 2011 or not.

The answer is that it can because that verse does not stand by itself. There are many other passages that support that kind of interpretation.

Wondergirl: "Your quoting system is messed up."

You have a right to your opinion.

Actually I have not specified that I'm following a particular system of quoting the Bible. But there are some explicit principles (rules from the Bible) that I do try to follow. I'd be happy to enumerate them for you, should you wish to see them.

Your quoting of posts on this site is messed up.

Oh... did you mean quoting the previous posting ? Yes. I made a technical error.

Not this:


Quoting HeadStrongBoy:
Your observation may well be accurate. I do not look at my answers here as an opportunity to display my personal beliefs. But you HAVE displayed your personal beliefs. What we all would like to know is why did you discard what you used to believe and decide to embrace those new beliefs?

But this:


Your observation may well be accurate. I do not look at my answers here as an opportunity to display my personal beliefs.

But you HAVE displayed your personal beliefs. What we all would like to know is why did you discard what you used to believe and decide to embrace those new beliefs?

As you've noticed I also made some spelling errors lately. I did ask the admins for a spell checker, but some other members are actually proud of their improper spellings.

Oh....did you mean quoting the previous posting ? Yes. I made a technical error.
It's good to correct our errors. May 21st is fast approaching.

Click on your browser's spellchecker.

Wondergirl: It's good to correct our errors. May 21st is fast approaching.

I agree. And it's true that I have expressed my beliefs before. But I think that my beliefs should not be the focus, or center of attention anymore. I am trying to turn over a new leaf. I would like to be as faithful as possible to the Bible, the whole Bible, both Old Testament and New Testament. Following the rule of comparing "spiritual things with spiritual." That means accepting no doctrine without looking at all parts of the Bible that relate to it.

I did it again. I don't think my browser has a spell checker. If it does, I don't know yet how to activate it.

Thanks for your interest. Much as I'm flattered, I'm not about to begin writing my auto-biography here. The important thing is....how does the Bible show that May 21, 2011 will be the Day of Judgment ? And how can I escape God's wrath ?

"Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have." 1 Peter 3:15

So, since the Bible says it's a good idea, please answer the question.

"Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have." 1 Peter 3:15

So, since the Bible says it's a good idea, please answer the question.
What was the question?

Oh, yeah, something about why he forsook his previous beliefs (and what were they?) and embraced Camping's teachings. What was it about Camping's teachings that enthralled him?

He's offline right now and is on the East Coast, so he might have disappeared to eat his bedtime snack and put on his jammies. That's what I'm going to do now.

Wondergirl: Oh, yeah, something about why he forsook his previous beliefs (and what were they?) and embraced Camping's teachings. What was it about Camping's teachings that enthralled him?

Dwashbur: "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have." (1 Peter 3:15) So, since the Bible says it's a good idea, please answer the question.

What were they ? I was confirmed in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod at the age of about 13. I attended a public (secular) high school and stopped attending church regularly. Though I still counted some former parochial classmates as friends, and I still attended services but only once or twice a year. My personal philosophy during high school leaned toward agnosticism and science. In college I majored in Physics/Pre-Engineering, and I became intrigued by the teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong and his Worldwide Church of God, among others. After graduation my spiritual life fell apart completely, and I had some intense episodes of social and emotional disconnect. While searching for my niche in the world I continued to be interested in other points of view for example Christian Science, Krishna Consciousness, Rosicrucianism, martial arts, and the charismatic movement. Years ago, probably in the mid 80s, one of my sisters was a regular listener to Family Radio. At that time many of Mr. Camping's teachings were still recognizable as mainstream Christianity. And because she listened continually, I became interested whenever I visited her. As time passed and I was busy making a living I too would occasionaly tune into Family Radio. I found that as I listened particularly to the Open Forum, I would almost always identify with a particular question that some caller would ask. And the answers that Mr. Camping gave, always from the Bible, were not only informative but invariably accurate (true to the Bible - I checked). That is, in a nutshell, my spiritual pilgrimage to date.

So, what's going to happen on December 12, 2012 then?

Is there money to be made having a Date, I mean what is this religious leaders advantage,

Perhaps excon and I can come up with some date if we can make a few bucks out off it?

Luckily I have a good supply of firearms and ammunition for when the chaos breaks out! :eek:

Luckily I have a good supply of firearms and ammunition for when the chaos breaks out! :eek:

Good, I will be coming to your house then. BYOG (bring your own gun) right ?

Is there money to be made having a Date, I mean what is this religious leaders advantage,

Perhaps excon and I can come up with some date if we can make a few bucks out off it ??

Im sure no one has accepted offers to sign over realestate for the 22nd of that month yet. ;)

Good, I will be coming to your house then. BYOG (bring your own gun) right ?

You can BYOG, or if you don't have one, I share! :D

You can BYOG, or if you don't have one, I share!! :D

I won't say what but Im zombie ready for sure!! :cool:

I believe this carp about as much as I believed Y2K.

I believe this carp about as much as I believed Y2K.

At least with Y2K they had a valid reason. But the implimentation of the fix was unknown going into it. Y2K was real when it was first thought up. But it also was easily corrected.

Synnen: My RELEVANT question is this: Why are SOME parts of the Bible used as ABSOLUTES and other parts IGNORED ENTIRELY? This is relevant because you say that your belief uses the WHOLE Bible. If so, do you follow ALL directives in the Bible, or are you a hypocrite and follow only the parts you believe---which would negate your whole argument about 5/21/11.

Your question is valid. And I'll try to give a satisfactory answer.

Firstly... no part of the Bible may legitimately be ignored. But, besides the obvious structure of two testaments, books, chapters, verses, translations, added words (italicized), and omitted (or changed) words e.g.YHWH, the Bible has additional structure that isn't obvious. And we need to distinguish between the structure that has been imposed by human beings, and the structure that originally came from God. Also we need to understand that some of the man made structures (such as the distinction between the two 'testaments') are actually plain wrong. Once we take those corrections into account, the Bible begins to take on an entirely different character than what we had supposed previously,. in my opinion.

Next, directives. What do you suppose the prime directives for understanding the Bible would be ? One of them is given explicitly in Proverbs 4:7. "Wisdom is the principal thing. Therefore get wisdom. And with all thy getting, get understanding." Also Proverbs 16:16 "How much better is it to get wisdom than gold ! And to get understanding rather to be chosen than silver !" Proverbs 3:19 "YHWH by wisdom hath founded the earth. By understanding hath He established the heavens." Do you suppose that with all that wisdom, He left His holy Bible to hang by a thread and to twist in the wind ? Another very important directive is humility. Explicitly in 1 Peter 5:5. Unless we personally submit to those directives, somehow... by prayer... etc. we will not see the kingdom of God. By a continued study we may find that the word 'grace' in some contexts is actually a synonym for 'salvation' itself. That is no exaggeration. If we do not recognize the Bible as God's word explicitly and humbly try to be as obedient as possible we will not receive the spiritual message it offers.

DMO... two words here... Fear Mongers.

Your question is valid. And I'll try to give a satisfactory answer.

Firstly....no part of the Bible may legitimately be ignored. But, besides the obvious structure of two testaments, books, chapters, verses, translations, added words (italicized), and omitted (or changed) words e.g.YHWH, the Bible has additional structure that isn't obvious. And we need to distinguish between the structure that has been imposed by human beings, and the structure that originally came from God. Also we need to understand that some of the man made structures (such as the distinction between the two 'testaments') are actually plain wrong. Once we take those corrections into account, the Bible begins to take on an entirely different character than what we had supposed previously,....in my opinion.


And were you the one that decided all of this on you own? Or did you learn it from someone else?

Thanks for your interest. Much as I'm flattered, I'm not about to begin writing my auto-biography here. The important thing is....how does the Bible show that May 21, 2011 will be the Day of Judgment ? And how can I escape God's wrath ?

Actually, I don't give a damn about escaping God's wrath. I believe in a benevolent god.

Here's the question I want answered: What were the signs of EACH seal being broken, as applies SPECIFICALLY to our world? I can look up Revelation 6 as easily as anyone and read the BIBLICAL signs--I want you to tell me why 1988 was the year the 7th seal was broken.

Here's the other question I have asked that has not been answered:

Which VERSION and TRANSLATION of the Bible are you using? It makes a difference, because the wording is pretty different in different versions and translations.

Has anyone besides HSB searched the internet for this lunatic Harold Camping or any of his teachings? It is pretty interesting how far off one person can get when they think they have the answers and answer to no one in higher authority.

It is pretty interesting how far off one person can get when they think they have the answers and answer to no one in higher authority.

You mean like Jim Jones was interesting?

HeadStrongBoy: Thanks for your interest. Much as I'm flattered, I'm not about to begin writing my auto-biography here. The important thing is... how does the Bible show that May 21, 2011 will be the Day of Judgment ? And how can I escape God's wrath ?

Quoting Synnen: Actually, I don't give a damn about escaping God's wrath. I believe in a benevolent god.

Here's the question I want answered: What were the signs of EACH seal being broken, as applies SPECIFICALLY to our world? I can look up Revelation 6 as easily as anyone and read the BIBLICAL signs--I want you to tell me why 1988 was the year the 7th seal was broken.

Keep it up, I just love to dance. P.S. This is not about what you want. P.P.S. You're angry when you're beautiful.

P.P.P.S. If your god is totally benevolent, then you need have no worries. Then all of the information that relates to the Day of Judgment is completely irrelevant to you. You'll be safe no matter what. So why bother your head with insignificant facts ? Convince me to take your question seriously. Prove to me that you're not just trolling.

You mean like Jim Jones was interesting?

LOL, I was not going to as far as that, comparing Camping's ramblings to the likes of Jones, or any of the other cult leaders of the recent past for that matter. But it does intrigue me how many people will fall into the false teachings of these charismatic people instead of simply accepting the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Hey, HSB, how much money have you given to this guy? Inquisitive minds want to know.

LOL, I was not going to as far as that, comparing Camping's ramblings to the likes of Jones, or any of the other cult leaders of the recent past for that matter. But it does intrigue me how many people will fall into the false teachings of these charismatic people instead of simply accepting the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Hey, HSB, how much money have you given to this guy? Inquisitive minds want to know.

It is a little amusing :o how you can talk out of one side of your mouth... and say "simply accepting the teachings of Jesus Christ."

And the other side of your mouth says... "Hey this guy's a real fool. Let's see :cool: if he'll tell me about his personal finances."

I'm just saying... :rolleyes:

OMG! I've just gone through this thread. I cannot fathom the depths of blind faith that has gone into this. I rarely get involved in these discussions because they are so ridiculous. I've said before, that I believe, as long as one lives their life according to what is known as the Judeo-Christian ethic, then, if there is a day of judgment, I feel I will be judged appropriately. I do NOT believe that living a "good" life requires that I worship any particular deity, subscribe to any particular religion to be judged.

That being said I did feel the need to make some specifics comments:


Fact is that every word in the whole Bible is the words of Jesus.


My motivation is to hammer home the concept that the Old Testament IS EQUALLY VALID today.

You don't see the contradiction there? The Old Testament was written before Jesus was born.


Sorry, I don't accept challenges to argue, or challenges to show who's smarter.
I will let that quote stand on its own.


I guess, if by some remote chance I'm still here on May 22, 2011 and nothing has happened...I'll be eating a lot of crow on this site. But not before then.

I have just marked my calendar I will return to this thread on that date. Where I expect you to post an apology.

Thank you, HSB, for the post you made about your religious background and evolution. I (and others) can relate to a lot of that. My neighbor is a member of Armstrong's church, so I've read up on that as well as on Mr. Camping's beliefs, pro and con.

HeadStrongBoy: Fact is that every word in the whole Bible is the words of Jesus.

My motivation is to hammer home the concept that the Old Testament IS EQUALLY VALID today.

ScottGem: You don't see the contradiction there? The Old Testament was written before Jesus was born.

Your comment about: "I cannot fathom the depths of blind faith that has gone into this."

It seems clear to me that you regard Jesus as no more than an extraordinary human being of some kind. And that is your privilege. But a careful study of the Bible, believing that it is the word of God, reveals that Jesus is the same God YHWH (or Jehovah) who appears in the so called Old Testament.

So actually there's no contradiction whatsoever. Jesus Himself said: "Before Abraham was, I am." [John 8:58] (YHWH are the Hebrew letters meaning 'I AM.')

You may call my faith blind if you wish, but it's based on a thorough understanding of some parts of the Bible. Probably a lot more than you know.

But a careful study of the Bible, believing that it is the word of God, reveals that Jesus is the same God YHWH (or Jehovah) who appears in the so called Old Testament.

So actually there's no contradiction whatsoever. Jesus Himself said: "Before Abraham was, I am." [John 8:58] (YHWH are the Hebrew letters meaning 'I AM.')

That is one way of interpreting the Bible.


You may call my faith blind if you wish, but it's based on a thorough understanding of some parts of the Bible. Probably a lot more than you know.

The keyword there is understanding. You have YOUR understanding of the Bible. Clearly other people have their own understanding of the Bible. Since there is no concrete proof either way, then any belief in the Bible as the word of God and a belief in any God at all is a matter of blind faith. If your faith comforts you, then I am happy for you.

Scottgem: The keyword there is understanding. You have YOUR understanding of the Bible. Clearly other people have their own understanding of the Bible. Since there is no concrete proof either way, then any belief in the Bible as the word of God and a belief in any God at all is a matter of blind faith. If your faith comforts you, then I am happy for you.

There is a certain coherence in what you've said above. And I respect that. But nevertheless... The 153 day period (about 5 months) defined in the Bible as The Day of Judgment will begin May 21, 2011 with a mega-mega earthquake that will rock the whole planet. The likelihood is that it will begin near the International Dateline and follow the sun around the globe for 24 hours until every last place on the Earth has been completely shaken to pieces.

I don't know what your definition of 'comfort' is. But anyone who is comforted by what I've just posted must be either deranged, or they're absolutely certain of their personal salvation. In any case I have loved ones who do not believe any of this. For me it's not comforting to know that they, and perhaps I too, will be destroyed on that day, or the days that follow.

Jesus Himself said: "Before Abraham was, I am." [John 8:58] (YHWH are the Hebrew letters meaning 'I AM.')


Since that particular statement is actually in Greek, that's a good trick!

This is one of the funniest things I've seen out of you yet.

The "I Am" in Exodus, in Hebrew, is )HYH (it's hard to transliterate the first letter, since it's a glottal stop that has no equivalent in our alphabet), aleph-he-yod-he. The divine name is yod-he-waw-he, so the two are not the same word. And Jesus actually said, in Greek, EGO EIMI. Well, you might say, this is the Greek equivalent of what's in Exodus. No, it isn't. The Greek translation of the Exodus passage says EGO EIMI HO WN (the W is an approximation of the letter omega), which means "I am the one who is." You and your guy Camping need to learn a bit of Hebrew and Greek before making such ludicrous statements.

There is a certain coherence in what you've said above. And I respect that. But nevertheless... The 153 day period (about 5 months) defined in the Bible as The Day of Judgment will begin May 21, 2011 with a mega-mega earthquake that will rock the whole planet. The likelihood is that it will begin near the International Dateline and follow the sun around the globe for 24 hours until every last place on the Earth has been completely shaken to pieces.

So does that mean you would be willing to sign over your monies and entire estate to me as of the 22nd? Or whatever near future date you expect that there is nothing left ?

Here's the question I want answered: What were the signs of EACH seal being broken, as applies SPECIFICALLY to our world? I can look up Revelation 6 as easily as anyone and read the BIBLICAL signs--I want you to tell me why 1988 was the year the 7th seal was broken.

HSB, I'd like to see the answer to this question, as well. I think we all would. How about it?

It is a little amusing :o how you can talk out of one side of your mouth.....and say "simply accepting the teachings of Jesus Christ."

And the other side of your mouth says..."Hey this guy's a real fool. Let's see :cool: if he'll tell me about his personal finances."

I'm just saying...:rolleyes:


So by that sort of dodging the question I have to assume you have signed over a significant portion of your money to this kook?
I do have to hand it to you, you are almost an expert at dodging the questions put to you. But then again people like Jim Jones, and that nut case at Waco were too. So far I have asked you at least twice before, but will try once again. When May22 rolls around and you are still sitting on your butt in front of the computer, will you actually have the nerve to come back to this forum and admit the fallacy of your beliefs?

Scottgem "You and your guy Camping need to learn a bit of Hebrew and Greek before making such ludicrous statements."

That one is my own, with some help from an Assemblies of Yahweh Bible. I do not claim to be an expert in the classic Greek or Hebrew languages. Your knowledge of the specific Greek and Hebrew may be accurate for all I know. But my knowledge is not the issue, and my belief is not based only on that one verse. There are other explicit verses that declare Jesus is YHWH. For example 1 Corinthians 10:4.

450donn "will you actually have the nerve to come back to this forum and admit the fallacy of your beliefs?"

It doesn't take very much nerve to face a smart alec like yourself. All it takes is to assume the same type of ballsy bravado that you seem to exude.

Scottgem "You and your guy Camping need to learn a bit of Hebrew and Greek before making such ludicrous statements."

That one is my own, with some help from an Assemblies of Yahweh Bible. I do not claim to be an expert in the classic Greek or Hebrew languages. Your knowledge of the specific Greek and Hebrew may be accurate for all I know. But my knowledge is not the issue, and my belief is not based only on that one verse. There are other explicit verses that declare Jesus is YHWH. For example 1 Corinthians 10:4.

That was actually me, not Scottgem. The deity of Jesus isn't the question. The question was your statement that YHWH is Hebrew for "I am." Thank you for admitting that you made it up and that it's wrong.

Synnen: Here's the question I want answered: What were the signs of EACH seal being broken, as applies SPECIFICALLY to our world? I can look up Revelation 6 as easily as anyone and read the BIBLICAL signs--I want you to tell me why 1988 was the year the 7th seal was broken.

Dwashbur: HSB, I'd like to see the answer to this question, as well. I think we all would. How about it?

Ya know... I just don't feel like working that hard right now. The atmosphere is not particularly to my liking. Why put myself out for a bunch of skeptics. And they're not only skeptical in a rational and scientific way, they also strike me as somewhat arrogant and rude, almost to the point of outright disrespect. I refuse to put forth diligent effort for a bunch of smart a**es.

I admit nothing of the kind. I continue to stand by my interpretation that Jesus is YHWH. And the verse I've quoted about Abraham etc. is sufficient for me.

Ya know....I just don't feel like working that hard right now. The atmosphere is not particularly to my liking. Why put myself out for a bunch of skeptics. And they're not only skeptical in a rational and scientific way, they also strike me as somewhat arrogant and rude, almost to the point of outright disrespect. I refuse to put forth diligent effort for a bunch of smart a**es.

So really what this means is you choose not to participate in debate. It also shows that any disrespect your getting is by your own means. I just love it.

dwashbur

I don't deny that you probably have more technical knowledge than I do.

As such you should realize that YH can be taken as a shortened version of YHWH. Many Biblical Hebrew men's names contain the phoneme YaH. For example Elijah... can be broken down into Eli and YaH. Joel can be analyzed into YaH and El. Isaiah is Isai and YaH. Zechariah is Zechari and YaH. I admit my methodology is amateurish and perhaps repugnant to you. But I do know that YaH is a functional abbreviation of YaHWeH. And until now that little bit of knowledge (sloppy as it may be) has been sufficient for me. I am not trying to earn any doctorates or other fancy degrees. But truth is truth. Like it or not.

califdao3: So really what this means is you choose not to participate in debate. It also shows that any disrespect your getting is by your own means. I just love it.

You can call it any way you like sport.

I don't see it as debate necessarily. Question and answer is not necessarily debate. Question to me implies sincere question. Not baiting someone into making a fool of themselves. That is the refuge of tiny minds and perhaps sports fans.

The end of the world is not something to be 'sported' with. Another word for sporting in this context is mocking. That is your privilege to do, if that's your good pleasure. But as for me... this is in earnest.

You know me well enough by now that you know I don't mock you and have tried to help you out in several ways. I too am interested in the 1988 date, and am wondering how it came to be part of Mr. Camping's reckoning. You may have explained it earlier, but I don't remember in which thread (to go back to look for it). Nineteen eighty-eight was the year I started grad school, but I'm guessing that had nothing to do with how Mr. Camping was calculating.

You can call it any way you like sport.

I don't see it as debate necessarily. Question and answer is not necessarily debate. Question to me implies sincere question. Not baiting someone into making a fool of themselves. That is the refuge of tiny minds and perhaps sports fans.

The end of the world is not something to be 'sported' with. Another word for sporting in this context is mocking. That is your privilege to do, if that's your good pleasure. But as for me...this is in earnest.

Actually no its not in any way earnst. You spout words and have been trying to make others believe that it is but your not even practicing the bible. Yet your making wild claims. So its your choice as to how you follow through on things. But the only player I see so far is you.

Wondergirl: You know me well enough by now that you know I don't mock you and have tried to help you out in several ways. I too am interested in the 1988 date, and am wondering how it came to be part of Mr. Camping's reckoning. You may have explained it earlier, but I don't remember in which thread (to go back to look for it). Nineteen eighty-eight was the year I started grad school, but I'm guessing that had nothing to do with how Mr. Camping was calculating.

To me it's a little complicated because I have not personally worked through it before in a very formal way. As you know I do have a math and engineering background. And until I've formalized something like this I don't feel confident enough to make a presentation of it. I've only just absorbed enough of the data so that I have been able to have an almost intuitive grasp of that date. And I am a somewhat lazy scholar. That's why, if you need to have it immediately, I refer people to Mr. Camping's booklet The End of the Church Age and After. Right now I'm going to take an extended break. After that we'll see.

dwashbur

I don't deny that you probably have more technical knowledge than I do.

As such you should realize that YH can be taken as a shortened version of YHWH. Many Biblical Hebrew men's names contain the phoneme YaH. For example Elijah... can be broken down into Eli and YaH. Joel can be analyzed into YaH and El. Isaiah is Isai and YaH. Zechariah is Zechari and YaH. I admit my methodology is amateurish and perhaps repugnant to you. But I do know that YaH is a functional abbreviation of YaHWeH. And until now that little bit of knowledge (sloppy as it may be) has been sufficient for me. I am not trying to earn any doctorates or other fancy degrees. But truth is truth. Like it or not.


I admit nothing of the kind.


That one is my own, with some help from an Assemblies of Yahweh Bible. I do not claim to be an expert in the classic Greek or Hebrew languages.

Yes, YH is sometimes an abbreviated form of The Name. That fact is also meaningless in the present context. And I repeat, the deity of Jesus is not the question. Is Jesus God? Yes. I agree. The question has to do with that specific verse and your assertion that YHWH means "I Am" in Hebrew. Quit trying to dodge. You did acknowledge that the statement was wrong as far as you might know, so why are you backpedaling now? I'm talking about one specific statement you made. You keep trying to make it about the identity of Jesus, which again is NOT the question. If you're going to address my comments, please address them. Don't try to redirect to your own hobby-horses.

How extended of a break? (I'll miss you.)

I'll do library research on 1988.

calidado3: You spout words and have been trying to make others believe that it is but your not even practicing the bible.

Yes I spout words. That's what discussions are. Words. Making you or anyone believe is not my responsibility. God does that. I can only spout words. How you perceive them is another matter.

By the way... what does it mean "but your not even practicing the bible?" Can you explain that ?

If you will not explain yourself to me, why should I explain myself to you ? Are you my superior ?

dwashbur: You did acknowledge that the statement was wrong as far as you might know, so why are you backpedaling now

I acknowledged that the understanding that YHWH means "I AM" is evidence that Jesus actually said that He is YHWH. I said it's my own does not make it wrong. It means I take credit for that interpretation, and that no one spoon fed it to me, that I can recall at this moment. So what you said about me is wrong. I do not acknowledge that anything I said in this particular discussion about Abraham and Jesus is wrong. The wrong is entirely in your own perception. Clear enough ?

Yes I spout words. That's what discussions are. Words. Making you or anyone believe is not my responsibility. God does that. I can only spout words. How you perceive them is another matter.

By the way.... what does it mean "but your not even practicing the bible?" Can you explain that ?

If you will not explain yourself to me, why should I explain myself to you ? Are you my superior ?

Its your job according to the bible to spread forth the word. And that means trying or attempting to educate those even if unltimatly they don't listen. You are still suppose to make an attempt at it. But by closing off the conversation you are ignoring that fact. As it already seems your picking and choosing your belief based on something other then what is actually the written word. I find that contemptable at best. If your so right how can you be set up as you say to be wrong ?

I acknowledged that the understanding that YHWH means "I AM" is evidence that Jesus actually said that He is YHWH. I said it's my own does not make it wrong. It means I take credit for that interpretation, and that no one spoon fed it to me, that I can recall at this moment. So what you said about me is wrong. I do not acknowledge that anything I said in this particular discussion about Abraham and Jesus is wrong. The wrong is entirely in your own perception. Clear enough ?

See the post where I broke down each word in each passage and showed that your apparently made-up statement that YHWH is Hebrew for "I am" is wrong. So I perceive that your statement was wrong, but that's mainly because it was. If I were you, II wouldn't be so quick to take credit for such a wrong interpretation, since it has no basis in the facts of the words in question. But that's your problem, not mine. If you like being wrong, go for it.

The 153 day period (about 5 months) defined in the Bible as The Day of Judgment will begin May 21, 2011 with a mega-mega earthquake that will rock the whole planet.

The facts of the matter are that the Bible stating or even implying that the world will end on ANY specific date is INTERPRETATION based on BELIEF. There are NO hard facts to support making such a statement. And, In my opinion making such a statement borders on criminal. Because, unfortunately, there are people who will believe such garbage.


...anyone who is comforted by what I've just posted must be either deranged, ... For me it's not comforting to know that they, and perhaps I too, will be destroyed on that day, or the days that follow.

I don't know whether to feel sorry for you or to wonder what loony bin you escaped from. For you to believe that this event will happen based on such flimsy evidence when you state that it clearly bothers you seems to me to border on mental illness.

Scottgem "You and your guy Camping need to learn a bit of Hebrew and Greek before making such ludicrous statements."

Excuse me? I didn't say any such thing. Please use the Quoting feature if you need to quote someone.

If you like to play with numbers, as Harold Camping seems to like to do, here is this --

From Family Radio --

Interestingly this same message of salvation or judgment being the result of the Gospel is hidden in the total number of years the Gospel was to be sent by the churches into the world. We have learned that the church age began immediately after Christ demonstrated how He suffered and died to make payment for sin. That was in the year 33 A.D. We learned that the church age officially began on Pentecost, May 22, 33 A.D. It continued exactly 1,955 full years until May 21, 1988 when the church age came to an end.

The number 1,955 is made up of three prime numbers, each of which can have great spiritual meaning. The numbers are: 5 x 17 x 23 = 1,955.

Thus God by these numbers is echoing or paralleling 2 Corinthians 2:15-16, which is quoted above: 5 (atonement or redemption) times 17 (brings heaven) times 23 (or brings God's wrath or destruction).

First Jubilee year after "fig tree" came in to leaf is 1994
Feast of Tabernacles in that year, minus 2300 days = May 21, 1988

From HC's book, The End of the Church Age...and After --

[Note that on page 309 it says the official end of the church age is 1988, but on page 311 it says that the official end of the church age is 1994.]

From page 309 --

We are learning that there were two major shifts in God's Gospel plan for the world. The first was the shift from Old Testament Israel to the New Testament church age. From the time Israel came out of Egypt in 1447 B.C. until Christ arose from the grave in A.D. 33, the nation of Israel was the congregation with which most believers identified. The temple in Jerusalem and the synagogues located in various cities of Israel were the houses of worship in which the Bible believers gathered.

However, when Jesus was announced as the Lamb of God, that marked the beginning of an intense spiritual famine of hearing the Word of God. For three and a half years, very few were saved.

Immediately after this three and a half years, God made a major shift in the focus of the Gospel. No longer was the temple in Jerusalem to have any part of the Gospel focus. No longer were people to go to the synagogues to hear Biblical truth. They now were to go to the churches that began to spring up all over the world.

This shift met with great resistance on the part of the leaders of the synagogues. Saul of Tarsus, who later became the Apostle Paul, is an example of this. He was ready to physically murder people who left the synagogues to join the Christian movement. Then after he became saved, he became a target of the synagogue rulers. He was stoned and left for dead. He was beaten with rods on four different occasions. He, indeed, experienced the anger of the synagogue leaders.

However, the shift to the church age was God's plan. It began with Pentecost in A.D. 33 and continued until A.D.1988, the year that officially ended the church age. The church age identifies with the early rain that brought in the harvest of the firstfruits. Finally, God's plan included one more shift. This shift was from the church age to the season of the latter rain that would bring in the end-time harvest. This latter rain season was also preceded by a period of a famine of hearing the Word of God. And even as the famine during Christ's ministry was precisely three and a half years, so this famine at the end of the church age is symbolically indicated to be three and a half days, or 42 months. Utilizing the Bible's methodology, we can see that the three and a half days is the same period as that spoken of as three and a half years. This three and a half years or 42 months season is not an actual literal season of three and a half years as was the situation during Christ's ministry. It more likely identifies literally with the 2300 evening mornings of Daniel 8. Thus, in all likelihood, the Great Tribulation began in A.D. 1988.

The church age was the time when the firstfruits were brought in. It was totally identified with Pentecost. Therefore, the last year of the church age ended the day before the day on which Pentecost was observed in the year 1988. That would have been in May, 1988. It is curious and perhaps significant that 1988 is precisely the 13,000 year anniversary of the creation of the world.

Also curiously and perhaps significantly, 2300 days after the day before Pentecost was observed arrives at September 6, 1994. This, too, is a day that identifies with the Old Testament feast days. If they are extended into the New Testament era, it would be the first day of the seventh month, which during the Old Testament, was a memorial of blowing of trumpets. Leviticus 23, verse 24 records:

Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

From page 311 --

The three and a half years are spoken of as 1260 days to distinguish this period of time from the 42 months (also three and a half years), during which the temple was trodden under foot. The 42 months symbolically represent the first part of the Great Tribulation season. It is the same period indicated in Revelation Chapter 13, verse 5, during which time Satan begins to rule in the local churches and congregations. It is the period that goes from the official beginning of the Great Tribulation period (probably 1988), until the official end of the church age (1994).

Why both 1988 and 1994 mentioned as the end of the church age --

"I think it's obvious that 1988 was always the end of the church age in Camping's mind. But when [the end of the world didn't happen in] 1994, he needed to plug some event into that slot to save his calendar, so he came up with this strange idea of a two part tribulation. Christ came 'spiritually' in 1994 to end the church age supposedly, even though we were told before it ended in 1988. This is what happens when you build your calender first, and then try to squeeze your events into it. Pretty soon you have to start making up events in order to keep your calendar on life support." (Depart Out • Harold Camping • End of the world • church age • Family Radio • View topic - Biblical Proof for End of the "Church Age" (http://departout.com/viewtopic.php?t=580))

Why both 1988 and 1994 mentioned as the end of the church age --

"I think it's obvious that 1988 was always the end of the church age in Camping's mind. But when [the end of the world didn't happen in] 1994, he needed to plug some event into that slot to save his calendar, so he came up with this strange idea of a two part tribulation. Christ came 'spiritually' in 1994 to end the church age supposedly, even though we were told before it ended in 1988. This is what happens when you build your calender first, and then try to squeeze your events into it. Pretty soon you have to start making up events in order to keep your calendar on life support." (Depart Out • Harold Camping • End of the world • church age • Family Radio • View topic - Biblical Proof for End of the "Church Age" (http://departout.com/viewtopic.php?t=580))

And this varies from what I heard a church member speaking of as to how they got to that date of 5-21-11. Yet another part of the puzzle to be added.

Also from (Depart Out • Harold Camping • End of the world • church age • Family Radio • View topic - Harold fools you once? Shame on him. (http://departout.com/viewtopic.php?t=590)) --

"Yes, he fooled me once in 1994. I was there on September 6th. I remember the feeling of waiting all that afternoon for an end of the world to come that did not. I remember the next morning when the reality had set in that the end did not come.

I remember Harold Camping on Larry King Live before that. I remember him saying on Open Forum, that he was '99.99%' sure that it was going to happen. I remember him saying that he was more and more 'convicted' that it was going to happen. I remember buying his book 1994? at Barnes and Noble and I remember buying 2 copies.

I remember.

He fooled me twice for a few years, but I finally realized that his revelations are not harmonizing with the whole Bible."

A complication --

If the world is to end on the date [Harold Camping] said, Jerusalem time, what about the time difference? It could be 10/20 in the USA when it's 10/21 there? Or 10/22 there when it's 10/21 here?

Wondergirl: Why both 1988 and 1994 mentioned as the end of the church age --
"I think it's obvious that 1988 was always the end of the church age in Camping's mind. But when [the end of the world didn't happen in] 1994, he needed to plug some event into that slot to save his calendar, so he came up with this strange idea of a two part tribulation. Christ came 'spiritually' in 1994 to end the church age supposedly, even though we were told before it ended in 1988. This is what happens when you build your calender first, and then try to squeeze your events into it. Pretty soon you have to start making up events in order to keep your calendar on life support." (Depart Out • Harold Camping • End of the world • church age • Family Radio • View topic - Biblical Proof for End of the "Church Age")

I think I can add some insight into this particular problem. The idea that the Great Tribulation consists of two parts comes from the Bible. So that is not as strange as we may think. The error arises (or arose) because Camping published the book 1994? prematurely, before he had done enough homework to realize that the entire Tribulation would last 23 years rather than only 2300 days.

califdaof3: And this varies from what I heard a church member speaking of as to how they got to that date of 5-21-11. Yet another part of the puzzle to be added.

This part of the puzzle I've worked out myself, following the published study step by step. And as far as I can tell there are no errors. If you want details, I'd be happy to provide at least the basic outline of the derivation.

HeadStrongBoy: southamerica, Right now I'm too tired to work on this anymore. But if you don't want to wait for me, the information is available FREE from Family Stations, Inc. Ask for the book by Harold Camping called The End of The church Age and After.

Depressed in MO: Please, before you go, if you can suggest-how does someone who it took over a quarter of their lifetime to really accept Jesus into their heart-have a chance to be accepted by God when this day comes? (I'm using this as an example) What criteria must be met to be accepted? I'm just asking your opinion-nothing more.

Sorry to take so long to give you an answer. I've been busy dancing around with some of the other posters on this thread. Since you asked for my opinion I'll give it to you straight without the accompanying scripture references. The environment that the candidate for salvation must be in consists of two parts. One is the hearing of the word of God. It does not have to be elaborate or extensive. Just Judgment Day is May 21, 2011 is the word of God. Two is humility (or obedience). The hearer must take the message seriously. That is a sign of humility. Of those people who fulfill those two requirements, God may save some of them. It's not a guarantee, because doing any of that is effort (or work) on our part. But that's it in a nutshell. For specific Bible references a little more work is required, on my part to provide them.

God may save some of them.
What do you then do with all the passages that say that Jesus died for all?

It's not a guarantee, because doing any of that is effort (or work) on our part.
What do you do with the passages, such as Eph 2:8,9, that say God's grace is free, that He has done all the work of salvation, and asks us only to love Him and each other?

Keep it up, I just love to dance. P.S. This is not about what you want. P.P.S. You're angry when you're beautiful.

P.P.P.S. If your god is totally benevolent, then you need have no worries. Then all of the information that relates to the Day of Judgment is completely irrelevant to you. You'll be safe no matter what. So why bother your head with insignificant facts ? Convince me to take your question seriously. Prove to me that you're not just trolling.

Way to avoid the question yet again.

Congratulations--you've proven to ME, if not to anyone else, that you're just a charlatan and a troll.

Way to avoid the question yet again.

Congratulations--you've proven to ME, if not to anyone else, that you're just a charlatan and a troll.
Actually, I think HC's reasoning and calculations are so complicated that any follower of his is hard pressed to justify and even repeat them so they make some semblance of sense to anyone else. That seems to be where HSB sits.

Wondergirl: A complication --If the world is to end on the date [Harold Camping] said, Jerusalem time, what about the time difference? It could be 10/20 in the USA when it's 10/21 there? Or 10/22 there when it's 10/21 here?

The beginning of The Day of Judgment will be May 21, 2011. That day will feature the great earthquake and the rapture. After that the world will be in great chaos for about 5 months (153 days) because of all the destruction caused by the great quake. Then on Oct. 21, 2011 the whole universe will be destroyed by fire.

The issue of the time zone differences is being hashed out as we speak. Callers to the Open Forum are discussing this question. And Mr.Camping is coming up with possible explanations of how exactly this will all go down. One possibility is that the quake will begin at the International Dateline in the Pacific near New Zealand. As the world turns the quake will roll along with the path of the sun. Making a complete revolution in 24 hours, obviously. There is also the controversy of whether the day begins in the evening, as in Genesis "evening mornings." Or whether God will honor the man-made custom of beginning the day at 12:00 o'clock midnight. Right now Camping seems to be in a bind because he can't seem to make up his mind which one. There is a Bible verse where Jesus says: "are there not 12 hours in a day...?" Camping says that refers not to the complete 24 hour cycle (day), but to the 12 hours (average) of daylight at the equator. As of the present moment Camping is saying that it will "most likely" begin at 6PM on May 21, 2011. But that means only 6 hours until midnight and May 22, 2011. Then the remaining 18 hours of the earthquake on the Day of Judgment would be occurring on May 22, 2011. Not a very satisfying solution to the time problem, I think.

Synnen: Congratulations--you've proven to ME, if not to anyone else, that you're just a charlatan and a troll.

This may come as a shock to you. But I don't know you from a hole in the wall. So why should I be in the least concerned what you think ? What are you going to do.. slap my wrist ?

If you like to play with numbers, as Harold Camping seems to like to do, here is this --

from Family Radio --

[I]Interestingly this same message of salvation or judgment being the result of the Gospel is hidden in the total number of years the Gospel was to be sent by the churches into the world. We have learned that the church age began immediately after Christ demonstrated how He suffered and died to make payment for sin. That was in the year 33 A.D. We learned that the church age officially began on Pentecost, May 22, 33 A.D. It continued exactly 1,955 full years until May 21, 1988 when the church age came to an end.

Mistake number one, and of course it brings the whole house of cards crashing down, but some people can't figure that out. First of all, my alter ego, Sir Nitpick, sez it's not 33 A.D. it's A.D. 33. I'll let that pass.

But it wasn't 33 A.D. or A.D. 33. We don't know what year it was. The year 33 comes from the statement that Jesus began his public ministry when he was "about thirty years of age" and the idea that his public ministry lasted roughly three years. The three year figure comes from the mention of three different Passovers in the Gospels. But notice that both numbers are approximate; "about thirty" could mean anything from twenty-nine to about thirty-two, and the mention of three Passovers doesn't preclude the idea that there were more than three and the others simply aren't mentioned. So we have a plus-or-minus of almost ten years. And we have NO WAY to tell what year it actually happened.

But it gets even worse. We also know that our calendar is wrong. Jesus wasn't born in year A.D. 1; when the calendar was calculated, the authorities who calculated it were off by somewhere around 4-6 years. Jesus was born somewhere around 6 or 4 B.C. Again, we don't know for sure. So that gives us close to 15 years or so of uncertainty. How on earth anyone thinks they can make a precise calculation based on that, remains to be explained.

If this is how Camping arrives at his precise dates, I think it's safe to say his calculations are based on, um, NOTHING. And his followers are hanging their hats on, precisely, NOTHING.

I'd love to believe this whole movement is a joke. Sadly, it's not.

This may come as a shock to you. But I don't know you from a hole in the wall. So why should I be in the least concerned what you think ? What are you going to do.. slap my wrist ?
Synn is a super moderator who can boot you off the site if you are a troll.

Ya know... I just don't feel like working that hard right now. The atmosphere is not particularly to my liking. Why put myself out for a bunch of skeptics. And they're not only skeptical in a rational and scientific way, they also strike me as somewhat arrogant and rude, almost to the point of outright disrespect. I refuse to put forth diligent effort for a bunch of smart a**es.

I started reading the latest posts and came across this, and I have to comment.

HSB, if you don't like the atmosphere here, and you don't want to put in the effort to answer any questions, or to be a part of the discussion, then why are you still posting?

You say we're all skeptics, well, show us why we shouldn't be. Start answering some questions. Fish, or cut bait!

You refuse to put forth any effort for a bunch of smart a$$es. Well, you got the smart part right, and I'm sure that's why you won't respond to any of the questions being asked of you. You've dug yourself into a hole and you have no way out. Instead of gracefully admitting that you don't have the answers to the questions being asked, you name call and try to turn the tables onto the people that have asked you these questions.

I know we're not as stupid as you had hoped. We won't just take your word for anything. I find it funny that you call us arrogant. I guess it takes one to know one. :)

You and you alone have backed yourself into this corner. If you truly believe that you're right, then prove it! If you really think you're smarter than everyone else, then answer the questions asked of you. Surely that shouldn't be too difficult for a genius such as yourself. :rolleyes:

HeadStrongBoy: God may save some of them.

Wondergirl: What do you then do with all the passages that say that Jesus died for all?

HSB: It's not a guarantee, because doing any of that is effort (or work) on our part.

WG: What do you do with the passages, such as Eph 2:8,9, that say God's grace is free, that He has done all the work of salvation, and asks us only to love Him and each other?

Haven't we gone through all of this before ? In my opinion it becomes complicated because you're favoring the particular verses that make God's program fit your preferences.

When we diligently, with God's help, compare the other verses that describe salvation we must realize that salvation for ALL must mean those all who have been predestinated by God. And NOT all who on their own have decided to become Christians. I see no problem at all with Ephesians 2:8,9. The faith that is being talked about is a gift. And it has NOT been given to everyone. And it is NOT a function of any decision that we have made.

Haven't we gone through all of this before ?
Not in this thread. :)

In my opinion it becomes complicated because you're favoring the particular verses that make God's program fit your preferences.
As are you.

When we diligently, with God's help, compare the other verses that describe salvation we must realize that salvation for ALL must mean those all who have been predestinated by God.
That's Calvin. I'm with Luther.

And NOT all who on their own have decided to become Christians.
Not on their own, but with the help of the Holy Spirit.

HeadStrongBoy: This may come as a shock to you. But I don't know you from a hole in the wall. So why should I be in the least concerned what you think ? What are you going to do.. slap my wrist ?

WG: Synn is a super moderator who can boot you off the site if you are a troll.

Que sera sera. I do what I do. And she will do what she will do.

Que sera sera. I do what I do. And she will do what she will do.

I hope she doesn't boot you off, at least for a while, because this is giving me a much-needed laugh.

WG: That's Calvin. I'm with Luther.
HSB: And NOT all who on their own have decided to become Christians.
WG: Not on their own, but with the help of the Holy Spirit.

I really don't see the difference. Unless you want to make an issue of the particular phrase "help of" the Holy Spirit. The way I see it there is only one God, not three. The Holy Spirit is God. The Holy Spirit is not just a helper. God must give the human being a new soul. He doesn't help the person get a new soul. He actually does all the work of giving the person a new heart (soul, or spirit). He must do it all, because before we're saved we're spiritually dead. Before we're saved we cannot believe to save ourselves. Help is out of the question. It's an all or nothing kind of situation. There are other scriptures that make a big issue of verifying that point. Exodus 31:13 and Numbers 15:32-36. Open your eyes !

I hope she doesn't boot you off, at least for a while, because this is giving me a much-needed laugh.

LOL! I'm not laughing so much as banging my head against the wall. He's infuriating, arrogant, unkind, and just an overall pain in the butt.

Not what I consider a good Christian by any means.

Harold Camping says 1988 marked the end of the church age. It turns out that 1987 is the year he was asked by the elders of his church to refrain from teaching his new doctrine, which of course he refused to do.

dwashbur: The deity of Jesus isn't the question. The question was your statement that YHWH is Hebrew for "I am." Thank you for admitting that you made it up and that it's wrong.

The deity of Jesus is exactly the question.

YHWH is one possible form for the words "I AM." It may be that YHWH is the infinitive form of the verb "to be." I am personally not interested in the specific conjugation of the verb "to be" in Hebrew, unless it strengthens my case that Jesus actually said (perhaps in veiled form) I am YHWH. It seems to me the Pharisees and Lawyers picked up on it immediately and wanted to stone Him for the blasphemy of making Himself equal to God.

The logic (if we can use that word) is that if Jesus is YHWH, then all the words in the so called Old Testament are the words of Jesus personally, as if they were printed in red. That's why any question about Jesus being YHWH calls into question the authorship of the Old Testament, which was given by YHWH.

What's your point ? Besides your info is wrong. He submitted to their decision to stop teaching. And because of it, he decided to leave amicably. Because he considers himself to be a teacher, first and foremost.

What's your point ? Besides your info is wrong. He submitted to their decision to stop teaching. And because of it, he decided to leave amicably. Because he considers himself to be a teacher, first and foremost.

Where did you get this info? Is it factually based, or based only on Camping's word?

I admit it's based only on Camping's word.

Independent Baptist was the denomination he was in?

the deity of Jesus is exactly the question.

Only to you. My point was your abuse of the Hebrew language.


YHWH is one possible form for the words "I AM."

No, it isn't. I already told you what the form of "I am" is in Hebrew and you chose to ignore it, even though I took the word straight out of Exodus 3. Well, maybe it's the other tense? No, that would be HYYTY. Anyone who really knows Hebrew will admit that we don't know what YHWH actually is. It's a name, but what it's derived from, if anything, is beyond our current knowledge.


It may be that YHWH is the infinitive form of the verb "to be."

Wrong again. The verb "to be" is HYH. The infinitive form, if there was one (which there isn't) would be HYH with slightly different vowels. No matter how you try to slice it, you can't get there from here. YHWH and the verb "to be" are two very different words.


I am personally not interested in the specific conjugation of the verb "to be" in Hebrew, unless it strengthens my case that Jesus actually said (perhaps in veiled form) I am YHWH.

Did you really just say that you don't care what the actual facts of the language are, unless they support your preconceived notions? Thank you for finally admitting that!


It seems to me the Pharisees and Lawyers picked up on it immediately and wanted to stone Him for the blasphemy of making Himself equal to God.

They actually made that accusation earlier when he said God was his father. They tried to stone him in this instance for claiming he was older than Abraham.


The logic (if we can use that word) is that if Jesus is YHWH, then all the words in the so called Old Testament are the words of Jesus personally, as if they were printed in red. That's why any question about Jesus being YHWH calls into question the authorship of the Old Testament, which was given by YHWH.

Well, you're right about one thing: it's questionable whether there's any logic there. I would conclude: no.

Wikipedia says Christian Reformed Church. And I have heard him confirm that.

My chiropractor is Christian Reformed -- healing, speaking in tongues, anointing with oil.

Ahhh... the plot thickens... so apparently the church age is done since they won't receive his teaching... brilliant.

Dwashbur, beautifully put.
Wondergirl... so is mine.

I hope she doesn't boot you off, at least for a while, because this is giving me a much-needed laugh.

You will laugh even harder on May 22 when HSB is sitting there dining on roasted crow, broiled crow, fried crow, etc. ;)

Remember he said he would "eat crow" if this doesn't come to fruition.

Hope he has a hearty appetite.

I am personally not interested in the specific conjugation of the verb "to be" in Hebrew, unless it strengthens my case that Jesus actually said (perhaps in veiled form) I am YHWH.


Did you really just say that you don't care what the actual facts of the language are, unless they support your preconceived notions? Thank you for finally admitting that!


I think that says it all!

You will laugh even harder on May 22 when HSB is sitting there dining on roasted crow, broiled crow, fried crow, etc. ;)

Remember he said he would "eat crow" if this doesn't come to fruition.

Hope he has a hearty appetite.

Naw, at least some of Camping's followers will probably just conclude they weren't part of the elect and that's why they didn't get taken. And of course, the earthquake will have been a 0.05 on the Richter scale...

Camping (or at least some of his followers) is already tap dancing around the May date (beginning of the Rapture) and will decide the Oct. 21st date (beginning of Judgment Day) is really the correct one. If that one doesn't pan out, there are reasons in his calculations why it didn't.

I would just like to point out that I'm just trying to get a straight answer about this entire thing.

I can't respect anyone that cannot defend their own faith--ESPECIALLY since I have had to learn to defend my own non-mainstream faith.

So HSB--you either believe the 5/21 rapture with all of your heart and can defend it completely (which you haven't shown me at all yet), or you're a charlatan and a troublemaker just set on stirring people up.

You're already proselytizing your beliefs, and this thread is really the OP trying to get you to explain and defend them---which is what the rest of us have been trying to do as well.

However, you dance around giving answers, and backtrack when someone points out that your answers either contradict each other or you direct us to go read Camping's stuff---which you apparently don't know well enough to explain to us, even though you believe it absolutely and expect the rapture on 5/21.

To top that off, many of us know the Bible better than you do, even though you claim the Bible is your ultimate reason for believing what you do. One thing you still have not answered is why YOUR interpretation (or Camping's, if you prefer) is the RIGHT version, and any other interpretation is wrong. You have NO idea how many people have decided that THEIR way is the ONLY way to read the Bible--this is at least the third theory I've heard outside of mainstream interpretations--based on how the Bible tells them to read the Bible.

Frankly, considering how many books were deleted from the Bible because of political and social reasons (for example, the books that gave women any power in the church were left out), I can't take seriously that the Bible is complete the way it is anyway. Considering how many parts of the Bible are either ignored these days (stoning to death for adultery) or have had interpretations change over the last couple hundred years (slavery used to be justified by Ham laughing at his father Noah's nakedness)--how can you claim that YOUR interpretation isn't just what you want it to say? Which, frankly, is EXACTLY what EVERY other Christian sect has done with THEIR interpretation of the Bible.

I think that I pity you, because you have fallen into the trap of having utter faith in something without completely understanding what it is you believe.

Frankly, considering how many books were deleted from the Bible because of political and social reasons (for example, the books that gave women any power in the church were left out), I can't take seriously that the Bible is complete the way it is anyway.

Hi Synnen,
The above caught my eye. Can you point me to a thread about this subject? Or, alternately, if I start a new thread about it, would you be willing (or have the time) to discuss it further?

Hi Synnen,
The above caught my eye. Can you point me to a thread about this subject? Or, alternately, if I start a new thread about it, would you be willing (or have the time) to discuss it further?

There's not a thread that I know of. I'm basing that statement on a Bible study class (not a group through a church--I actually took a class at university on reading the Bible) that I took 15 years ago. I have the book at home (somewhere), but it was essentially a class on the different ways you can read the Bible--as literature, as history, as prose, as a moral guide, as a political reference (it's amazing how much of what Paul wrote was more political than moral). I am, however, at work right now.

I'd be happy to discuss it further, but I may not be able to find the references I am thinking of very quickly.

I find this thread to be hilarious. I was just looking at some things about this. One thing that struck me as odd is after the great flood that only Noah his wife his 3 sons and their wives survived. Dude that is a lot of inbreeding to repopulate the world. But if you truly believe the world is going to end private message me and I'll give you an address where you can send all your money.

I don't find this thread necessarily funny but sad. Sad in the way that people believe in this nonsense.

The formula as described by HSB is so ludacris. I can take ANY book (bible or not) and calculate a formula to my liking. That does not make it true, or believable.

My opinion is this. When May 23rd comes around and we are all still here posting away on AMHD, Camping will be at home taking it easy. You may ask me why he would be taking it easy. That's because a man who has put himself into a hole like this would not leave himself exitless. He has conjured excuses and will propagate them throughout his followers and others after the proposed judgement day comes and goes. His forumla will vary to back his excuse and the drama will continue until the next proposed judgement day. Perhaps 2300 days did not mean 23 years, maybe it meant 23 oscillating years... so May 21st, 2034 will be judgement day ;)

I find this sad because of how much it has scared Depressed in MO. How many people, like Depressed, are tucking their kids in at night, terrified that they will never have a future, because of this?