I have a 4.5 month old Labrador/Shepherd mix female puppy, called Abby. We got Abby along with her full sister at 8 weeks of age. Right from the get-go this puppy has been extremely difficult to train. She readily pees in her crate and is willing to lay in it. Her crate is not too large for her. During the day, I take her outside every 30 minutes without fail (I work from home so I'm able to do this). I managed to catch her once and banged my foot on the floor, stated an emphatic "NO", and walked her outside on the leash to The Spot and said, "go pee". She went and was rewarded; however, since that time, she no longer sits up when pees - she pees while laying down on the blanket beside my desk! You can't possibly discourage a behaviour when you can't even catch it happening even when it's happening right beside you. She just doesn't move. I caught her once doing it while laying down and she was peeing all over herself. But more often than not, if she's peeing while laying down on the blanket beside me at my desk, then I can't possibly catch her to put a stop to the behaviour. So, I resort to keeping her on a leash attached to me at ALL TIMES - whether indoors or outdoors. And, I take her outside EVERY 30 MINUTES and there is still a pee spot in between that she was laying on top of and indeed is willing to pee on herself so as to not be discovered that she is peeing. I immediately take her back outside and then put her in her crate so I can scoop up the wet blanket to throw in the washing machine, and then I have to wash my tile floor thoroughly with disinfectant. The other dogs are very much disgusted by her actions and have already started to isolate her. I'm admittedly highly alert for the other dogs to start taking it upon themselves to discipline her for soiling "their space". She's getting to that age where an older dog expects the younger ones to toe the party line, so-to-speak.

I hate to say it, but I'm starting to wonder if she is a dirty dog. I've had dogs for 30 years and never had a dog that liked to lay in their own urine.

She also readily pees in her crate. A puppy that is 4 months of age should be able to hold their pee for at least 4 hours at night time. On the advice of a police dog trainer, (who by the way, observed our routine and said we are doing everything right with her) we restrict her water intake after 8 PM and this has made her more successful overnight.

This puppy has had other behavioral problems right from day one (we got her at 8 weeks of age) - snapping, biting, aggression, and she eats pebbles and wood (severe coprophagia - for which we have had her assessed by a veterinarian - thorough exam, no health issues). One by one we're working through them and now she no longer snaps and is much less aggressive - my pack has helped with the aggression issues considerably. She still scoops up rocks and swallows them at any opportunity. I catch her about 98% of the time (she's fast and adept at it) and will order her to "drop it", but I always have to get my fingers in her mouth to stop the swallowing mechanism until she finally does drop it. In the area of pee and pebbles, it is a real battle of wills. The pebbles could block her intestine, so this is a serious issue. She will also eat wood. And I mean, not just chew it to little bits and pieces - most puppies chew normally and incessantly and for that there are chew toys, rawhide chew sticks, etc. which she will also happily chew). Rather, she will eat the wood until there is not even a splinter left - this can become a deadly problem so I watch her VERY closely and she is never unsupervised during potty breaks or playtime.

Whether outside or inside, this dog is attached to me at all times by a leash. If there is a moment where I cannot watch her (such as needing a bathroom break myself or cooking dinner), then she taken outside to potty, then put in her crate. Otherwise, in the house, especially when I'm working, she's attached to me by a leash and "on the blanket" with the other dogs. I might only have her in the crate for 5 minutes and she will have wet the crate. In our house, the dogs lay "on the blanket" when they're in the house with us as a family - - keep note, the "blanket" moves to wherever we are located - I.. e the family room, or out of the way spot in the kitchen, etc. We consider our dog pack our family, so they have their spots and we have ours. Our dogs do not jump on the couch or the beds and are quite happy to sit at our feet in the TV room, or wherever, as long as they have their padded "blanket" to be on. It becomes THEIR place, their spot and they have their chewies there with them, etc. Outside is where everyone knows it where they get to PLAY and play they do - lots of running and whatnot. We have 60 acres of land and our dogs get scads of exercise. They run with us while we ride our horses. In our house, the order of life is: Exercise, discipline, then love. And boy is there a LOT of exercise.

By the way, her full sister was fully trained in 3 weeks. Marlie has not had an accident in the house in over 2 months, which I think is amazing. And this was despite her getting into some berries on a shrub outside and getting severe diarrhea - even with that, Marlie never soiled the house or her crate even once, despite desperately needing to get outside to have a bowel run at least once an hour.

Because I work from home and know how to properly crate train, plus I am very consistent in my efforts, I have never had such a resistant dog. While it's not so unusual to have stubborn or resistant dogs, what's really surprising me, and is much more concerning, is the fact that she is not particularly unhappy laying on her own excrement.

Is it possible that this dog will have to kenneled outside? We have been very diligent with our training and very consistent. I don't believe that a 4 month old puppy is being forced to wait too long when she is already being taken outside every 30 minutes already,plus we are continuing to get up in the night at least once to twice per night to take her out on a leash.

If she were to become an outdoor only dog, it would require special kennelling structure, including a heated house because we have a cold climate. Since she has already shown a tendency for digging, she will have to be kept on cement to prevent her from digging and escaping. But, our major concern is that because she seems quite unconcerned for laying in her own excrement already, that she will soil her house even out there because she won't want to go outside.

I'm not keen on her being an outside-only dog. It would isolate her further from my pack and from our family. This would have to be, bottom-line, absolute last resort only.

So, I need ideas, because I've done everything I can think of, including consulting a police dog trainer and other well-reputed dog trainers. They all say I'm doing everything right and to keep on, although even they admit that if you can't catch her in the act of doing the unacceptable behaviour, you can't correct it.

So, additional ideas would be greatly appreciated.

No, not a dirty dog, I have never run into one and have rescued a few pups a lot earlier then they are supposed to be. Just an unhappy puppy, and you have other dogs, maybe she is feeling left out and responding this way. Don't know. You seem to be a great dog person. I wouldn't like her tobe a completely outdoor dog, not good.

Sit down with her and try to 'read' her with prompts; get a feel for her, one on one. I am not saying this will work but because you have other dog personalities in the house (you have to get them away from her while you are doing this), then you may come up with an answer.

What can I say, without seeing the dog and feeling what she needs. Goodluck

Edit: she has the best of both worlds, lab and shepard, so what can go wrong, there is the intelligence there unless there is something else in the mix you don't know about.

Tick

I disagree with you - she is not unhappy. She is an inherently happy puppy, something the dog trainers commented on - she will happily prance around, initiate play, and get readily involved with all the activities of the family and the other dogs. Also, I have tried just having her by herself with me throughout the day. She still pees. She's just not getting the concept. What I'm looking for are ideas on how to show her HOW TO GET THE CONCEPT. Because of this problem, she gets more one-on-one attention from me than any other dog in the house. Plus, she is the only one that gets to go outside with me every 30 minutes for pee and then a bit of playtime with me for reward - it's extraordinarily time consuming, in the order one expects from newborn puppies, not one already nearly 5 months old.

With regards to the other dogs, I don't allow territorial behaviour amongst the group, so there is no bickering and no dominating behaviour allowed. They all play together quite happily and, I might add, the adults play very gently with the 2 puppies. They do, however, get annoyed with her soiling their blanket.

The professional dog trainers have never once stated they felt she was an unhappy dog. Two dog trainers did comment that she might have significantly lower intelligence leading to significant problems understanding this concept. As well, she has trouble understanding any concept, so for now we are focusing just on this, but she is seriously delayed in all aspects of social development. Perhaps there was a problem with her birth - dogs can and do have problems giving birth. It certainly happens with horses where a mare has a difficult birth and then the foal has significant psychological challenges.

We have also taken her to the vet for a thorough examination and no physical problems were found. Specifically we were looking for a possible bladder infection, but her tests came back clean.

So, as I stated before, I'm looking for suggestions on how to make it easier for this puppy to get the concept. Because thus far, the entire concept eludes her.

I have unfortunately met a dirty dog. I help my mom run a rescue and many times have we woke up to the infamous "water beds" that the dogs choose to sit in.

Have you had her checked for incontanence? Maybe she can't help but pee. Incontenant puppies can't control their bladder and therefore is very hard to house train. Maybe put a diaper on her and get her checked out by the vet? Also any types of infections of the bladder or urinary tract may be creating the uncontrollable urination.

You are doing everything right. Which is why I suspect a medical problem.

Where did you get her from? Was the facility clean? Have you spoke with the breeder about these problems? Maybe someone else who has a littermate is having problems.

Neurological problems could also be an issue. Hate to say it, but maybe she is a "slow" dog and doesn't understand why she is getting into trouble.

Maybe she is diabetic and is drinking more water then her little bladder can handle. Have you noticed excessive drinking? When she pees, is it excessive? Or is it a drop or too? Or a small puddle? Sometimes bladder infectious need to be tested by a direct sample being taken from the bladder itself. Has that been done yet?

If your vet has ruled everything out, then limit her water intake BIG TIME. Make her last drink be at 5pm instead of 8pm. Maybe change her food to a food with less sodium in it so she is not thirsty. The water she gets, give her pedialyte so as not to dehydrate her while trying to get her bladder to strengthen.

Maybe is is a medical condition of a weak bladder muscle. I would suggest a second opinion from a different Dr. or maybe stress the fact that the dog continues to pee on herself without caring.

I would be surprised if this is just a case of the dog not caring. Even my dirty rescue dogs will have a handful of good days ;)

You stated in your post that this dog is healthy. You mentioned going to the vet for other issues. What tests did the vet do? It sounds to me like she may be incontinent.

She is only 4 months old, and she just may be a slow learner. I've had dogs all of my life, some are potty trained instantly, others take longer. My youngest wasn't fully potty trained until well past his 5th month, and we were doing everything right. It just took him a while to get it.

The thing I'm most concerned about is the fact that she's peeing while laying down. To me this suggests that she doesn't even realize she's going. I've never seen a dog that pees while laying down unless it's something she/he can't control.

Go back to the vet, make sure she really does have a clean bill of health. If she is incontinent there are medications, or treatments. They don't always work, but at least they're an option.

In the meantime, I'd get a doggy diaper, and realize that this may not be something that will ever change. It's never the dogs fault though. Either we're doing something wrong (which is obviously not the case, as you have other dogs without issues) or there's something physically or mentally wrong that the dog cannot control.

I agree with Alty, sounds like incontinence, especially because of this line:


So, I resort to keeping her on a leash attached to me at ALL TIMES - whether indoors or outdoors. And, I take her outside EVERY 30 MINUTES and there is still a pee spot in between that she was laying on top of and indeed is willing to pee on herself so as to not be discovered that she is peeing

My b*tch Prada doesn't realise she is peeing until it is done, she will do it when she is very relaxed or asleep.
Yes, it means she will pee on the floor or the couch, she also pees in her bed overnight.

There is no real way to diagnose some forms of incontinence and the other ways are very expensive.

Ask your vet about incontinence and the drugs available and you both can decide if you want to try them out without the tests (which is what I did) Propalin carries little risk and works.

Another thing to consider is that she is only 4 months old, puppies are often incontinent and grow out of it over time.

Bravo Shazzy.

Yes, at 4 months of age the pup very well could grow out of this. It's not something to punish. This seems to be out of her control.

I don't think she's a dirty dog. She just doesn't realize when she has to pee, or when she's actually peeing. Hopefully that will change with age. If not, there are options. :)

It is common knowledge that sometimes in large breed dogs, with puppies going through growth spirts, doesn't allow the bladder to catch up right away. Therefore pup's input will always be greater with a small bladder trying to cope with the larger body. Eventually the bladder will correspond to the dog's size and everything will be relevant.

This happens in children as well. At times children who experience growth spirts have a bed wetting problem because their bladders have not caught up yet.

Tick

I too am wondering if she is urinating while laying down maybe she can't feel completely when she has to go and it is just leaking out of her I know with people you can do bladder training with a catheter obviously you would have to do this with a vet consent and assistance but if a catheter was to be inserted and you could do clamping starting with short time frames then taking her outside and unclamping so the urine releases and she gets rewarded with her treat then clamp again so she gets used to the feel of a full bladder and if it is that her bladder is smaller than average this could help to stretch it out a bit also. Again I don't know if this is something vets do or not but I would certainly ask my vet about it if this was my dog it would prevent the wet blanket too, cause she would be clamped while in the house so no leaking. I also am wondering if she smells her urine on the blanket even though you washed it she can likely still smell herself and if she does I wonder if she thinks it is OK to pee there cause it smells like it anyway? Just a thought, hope it works out for the best good luck

I too am wondering if she is urinating while laying down maybe she can't feel completely when she has to go and it is just leaking out of her I know with people you can do bladder training with a catheter obviously you would have to do this with a vet consent and assistance but if a catheter was to be inserted and you could do clamping starting with short time frames then taking her outside and unclamping so the urine releases and she gets rewarded with her treat then clamp again so she gets used to the feel of a full bladder and if it is that her bladder is smaller than average this could help to stretch it out a bit also. Again I dont know if this is something vets do or not but I would certainly ask my vet about it if this was my dog it would prevent the wet blanket too, cause she would be clamped while in the house so no leaking. I also am wondering if she smells her urine on the blanket even though you washed it she can likely still smell herself and if she does I wonder if she thinks it is ok to pee there cause it smells like it anyway? Just a thought, hope it works out for the best good luck

At 4 months of age, even if a vet did agree to put in a catheter, I wouldn't suggest it. It's very possible that with time, and patience, the pup in question will outgrow this.

If not, there are medications, and other treatments available that are a lot less drastic then a catheter.

I know you meant well, and you're only trying to help, but it's important to post what you know, not what you think or guess, on the dog forums.

Most of the people that come here really have no idea what's going on, and any post they receive, they take it as gospel. Guesses aren't good, because the OP may take your guess and think it's fact.

By all means post, give your opinion, but when it comes to health matters, it's best to stick to facts. :)

I still think it's a UTI.. I would suggest a cystocentesis... It's a direct sample of urine from the bladders. The infection might be bacterial and sitting in the bladder itself.

Never heard of cath-ing a puppy to train it to be house trained... Dogs instinctively know how to be clean. When they aren't being clean, either the pup had a VERY dirty mama, or something medical is going on.

Don't worry I too have a 2 month old puppy. He can pee when he's laying right beside you and never know he's doing it, you literally have to wake him up to take him out at night and by that time the damage is all ready done. He also dribbles as he walks around the house. It gets very frustrating trying to train him, he will actually go to the door(you constantly have to watch him) to go out he just doesn't scratch to get out. I get so mad at him but I realize it isn't his fault, he's just like having a baby in the house you have to watch constantly

Don't worry I too have a 2 month old puppy. He can pee when he's laying right beside you and never know he's doing it, you literally have to wake him up to take him out at night and by that time the damage is all ready done. He also dribbles as he walks around the house. It gets very frustrating trying to train him, he will actually go to the door(you constantly have to watch him) to go out he just doesn't scratch to get out. I get so mad at him but I realize it isn't his fault, he's just like having a baby in the house you have to watch constantly

The original posters dog is now almost a year and a half old, as this post was written last year. I'm sure she has it figured out by now, seeing as she never came back to give us an update or ask more questions.

I still think its a UTI.. I would suggest a cystocentesis... Its a direct sample of urine from the bladders. The infection might be bacterial and sitting in the bladder itself.

Never heard of cath-ing a puppy to train it to be house trained... Dogs instinctively know how to be clean. When they aren't being clean, either the pup had a VERY dirty mama, or something medical is going on.

Pup is getting bad vibes from OP Lucky. This can happen when the alpha is sending negative attitude signals; the pup is completely scared to death in case he/she does the wrong thing. Much like aggressive parents trying to potty train a child. I calmost see the 'cringing'. Body language and eye contact mean so much with dogs.

Don't care if I get a reddie for this, it just needs to be said.