I'm sitting here listening to a preacher preach that righteousness is right living. My bible says that all of our righteousness are as filthy rags. ( OT) After the death, burial and resurrection, we are given the gift of righteousness. That is to say, I am righteous before the Lord because when he sees me, he see's Jesus because I have received him as my savior.

I'm not suggesting that we should continue in sin, I'm saying that when we really believe we are righteous before a Holy God, we will ACT accordingly. No more striving.. no more guilt shame and condemnation and If I blow it I get back up and go on.

This preacher and many like him are the perfect example of mixing law with grace. What say you?

Righteous and Justification are related terms... and ones that are often misunderstood since Scripture does not firmly define them.

In Matthew 5:20 Christ instructs his followers, "Unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven." This is an important, though often misunderstood verse...

Our righteousness DOES come from God. By ourselves we cannot produce any righteous acts. God, through Christ, helps us to become righteous but it needs our active cooperation. His help comes in the form of His Grace and this Grace will first move us to do righteous acts. Using our freedom we decide whether to cooperate with this given Grace or not. Scripture says: He who does right is righteous (1 John 3:7), indicating our active participation. Certainly we do need the righteousness that comes through faith (Romans 4:3, 13, Philippians 3:9). To do what is right includes believing in Christ, but it is not the only one we need. In Timothy 6:11 and 2 Timothy 2:22 Paul would not bother to ask Timothy to aim for righteousness – if the righteousness that comes through faith in Christ, which Timothy already had as Christian, was the only one he need. Is being righteous necessary? Scripture says whoever does not do right is not of God but the children of devil (1 John 3:10) and the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9) while the righteous will go to eternal life (Matthew 25:46). The Psalmist cried: O LORD, who shall sojourn in thy tent? Who shall dwell on thy holy hill? (Psalms 15:1). The next verse gives the answer: He who walks blamelessly, and does what is right, and speaks truth from his heart. Christ said: “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied” (Matthew 5:6) and “For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:20). Blessed are those who do righteousness at all times (Psalms 106:3). Keep in mind that being righteous is not the same as being sinless. “To do what is right” in 1 John 3:7 certainly includes “to repent” but nobody needs to repent unless he/she sins in the first place. Scripture says (Proverbs 24:16): “for a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again.”

So in short (my words): We are made Righteous and Justified... BUT we are also expected to "actively contribute" in order to retain Righteousness and Justification.

"Salvation" is a related term also. In Scripture we can affirm that we are "Saved", "Being Saved" and "Will be Saved".

1. Saved: When we commit to follow God.
2. Being Saved: When we continue to battle life's day to day challenges.
3. Will be Saved: Looking forward to hearing "they good and faithful servant" (Mt 25:23).

References:
1. Righteousness Done Right (http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9108chap.asp)

2. Righteous acts are like filthy rags (http://vivacatholic.wordpress.com/2007/08/18/all-our-righteous-acts-are-like-filthy-rags-isaiah-646/).

3. Justification (http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9911fea1.asp)

4. Assurance of Salvation? (http://www.catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp)

Yes of our own selves we are fifthy. That is why we need the righteousness of Christ. Without him we are nothing. I totally agree with you. We are in His righteousness and when he does see us he sees Jesus. We are to repent of our sins and try and live a life that Jesus would approve of according to His word. We are not perfect "For ALL have sinned and fall short of the Glory of GOD" Rom 3:23. The pastor has mixed the law with Grace. Romans 6:14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. Hope this helps. God Bless you!

Quoting RickJ:
"God, through Christ, helps us to become righteous but it needs our active cooperation."

OK then how would you explain this ? "...that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you." Exodus 31:13.

"And they that found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron." (Numbers 15:33) "And the LORD said to Moses the man shall surely be put to death..." Numbers 15:35

Quoting RickJ:
"God, through Christ, helps us to become righteous but it needs our active cooperation."

OK then how would you explain this ? "...that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you." Exodus 31:13.

"And they that found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron." (Numbers 15:33) "And the LORD said to Moses the man shall surely be put to death..." Numbers 15:35

I can't explain it.
I can only rely on Scripture, my Faith in God and His son, and in my best interpretation of Scripture based on my own understand and the explanations of others who are far more knowledgeable than me... like those that I cited in my earlier answer.

We can only accept the Gift that we have been given and then use it for His glory - or we can ignore it (or otherwise not use it) or discard it.

His gift can be used, misused or ignored or discarded just like any other gift that we are given.

Quoting RickJ:
I can't explain it.

If I didn't know better, I'd say you're evading my point. But you wouldn't do that. Nah ! Would you ? You didn't earn your reputation without knowing how to sidestep a few land mines. I'll bet.

The scriptures I've referred to have a direct bearing on your quote "God, through Christ, helps us to become righteous but it needs our active cooperation."

In case you haven't guessed it, I'm trying to refute your quoted statement. But perhaps I should more carefully analyze it before I endeavor to "take on" such a distinguished personage as yourslf.

My minister father always explained it this way:

First is Justification, the work that Jesus did on the cross to take away our sins so that we become right again with God.

Sally is a prostitute. She can do nothing to save herself or even bring herself to faith. That's the work of the Holy Spirit who goes to her where she is in her life of sin. (The Spirit doesn't ask her to change first before he comes to her.) He brings her to faith, so that she realizes she is living an ungodly life.

Now, with the help of the Holy Spirit, Sally can work/make an effort to change her life and to do good things instead of bad ones. This is Sanctification, living a sanctified life.

Now I suppose you'll want proof passages for all this.

Headstrong,

I disagree with RickJ... but he came in here and gave a great answer and backed it up. I don't understand your attitude. Why are you so rude? If you are a christian, if you aren't a christian.. whatever... where does the attitude come from? It isn't from the Bible so knock it off... it is getting OLD. If you are 62 ( and we aren't really talking dog years.)... GROW UP! You are taunting RickJ?? Really?? It is embarrassing. Come on. Your posts are written well it is obvious you aren't lacking in wits... get it together. Someone might actually take you seriously.

Quoting RickJ:
"God, through Christ, helps us to become righteous but it needs our active cooperation."

OK then how would you explain this ? "...that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you." Exodus 31:13.

"And they that found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron." (Numbers 15:33) "And the LORD said to Moses the man shall surely be put to death..." Numbers 15:35

So where do you stand? Do you think we are automatically MADE righteous under grace... or do we have to keep our righteousness like RickJ thinks. I don't know? Here is your time to shine... :)

My minister father always explained it this way:

First is Justification, the work that Jesus did on the cross to take away our sins so that we become right again with God.

Sally is a prostitute. She can do nothing to save herself or even bring herself to faith. That's the work of the Holy Spirit who goes to her where she is in her life of sin. (The Spirit doesn't ask her to change first before he comes to her.) He brings her to faith, so that she realizes she is living an ungodly life.

Now, with the help of the Holy Spirit, Sally can work/make an effort to change her life and to do good things instead of bad ones. This is Sanctification, living a sanctified life.



Now I suppose you'll want proof passages for all this.

I understand what you are saying. But is she made righteous when she believes or does she have to get her act together before the Lord sees her as perfect before him?

Sally is made righteous when she believes (i.e. when the Spirit brings her to faith).

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/what-righteousness-548359.html
Tess - I am still working on a response to our other conversation. I happen to be going through Romans now so a lot of the discussions you are raising are addressed at length in Romans.

Ok, what is righteousness? I'd like to say that righteousness is not the quality of being a good person as some people think it to mean. Biblically speaking, righteousness can be used in two different manners. It can be used to describe the nature of someone's deeds (zedeq) in relationship to the Covenant of God or a person's standing before God (how one is seen in the eyes of God).
First off, the term righteousness is derived from the Greek word dikaios, which means: just, right, or innocent. As it relates to the covenant, someone was dikaios (righteous) if they kept the commandments of God. What I mean is that under the Old Testament or Covenant, someone was in right standing with God by taking the covenant seriously and keeping it. A person was adikias (unrighteous) if they did not keep the commandments of God. Let me explain. Let me first say that this concept has been confused by the modern church culture and in my opinion, we have to reconsider what righteousness and unrighteousness is in the context of the Jewish culture.

If you were a Jew under the Old Testament, you were one of two people. You either loved God and obeyed his Covenant or you hated God and observed the Covenant outwardly only or openly disobeyed the Covenant. To say that someone was righteous under the Mosaic Covenant meant that he was someone who delighted inwardly in the law; someone who when it came time to offer a sacrifice to God, did so willingly and from a heart committed to live his life according to the moral vision of God embodied in the Covenant. Now, such a person was a sinner, of course. And built into the very fabric of the Covenant were provisions for sin: if you sinned, depending upon what the sin was, there was a prescribed sacrifice that you needed to offer to God in order to be dikaios (righteous) in God's eyes. Dikaios in this sense means that when God “sees” you he looks upon you with mercy…even though you have sinned, he will not judge you; he will instead meet you with mercy. So such a person is in right standing within the community of the Covenant and in the eyes of God.

The interesting thing about keeping the Covenant (and this is what Paul means when he says that the Covenant was our tutor to bring us to God) was that in keeping it, you actually learned what sort of person you were. Let's think about this for a second. Every time you became aware of a way in which you broke one of the Commandments, you were instructed by God to offer a sacrifice. You had to go and take an animal, kill it, and its blood was to be used as a means of atoning for your sin. You can imagine that after years of living under such a covenant and sacrificing all of the animals that you did, it would become increasingly clear that there was something fundamentally wrong with you…every time you had to go and offer the sacrifice it was as if you were saying “here I go again.” Some commentators say that the Covenant was a tutor in the sense that it taught us that we couldn't keep it. Well, I don't think that was the case. The Covenant could be kept it was just that in keeping it, it sent home the message quite powerfully that I was an evil person…all of the sacrifices that I offered left a trail of blood behind me that left no question as to the kind of person that I was.

When Isaiah said that “all of our righteousness is like filthy rags”, he was saying that as a nation, Israel was not following the Covenant. Isaiah himself was just lumping himself into the same category as the nation because he recognized that the Covenant was one that needed to be kept as a nation. Isaiah himself was in right standing with God (righteous) but Israel as a whole was not. They were going after other gods; when they would offer a sacrifice, they would offer it profanely, not with a contrite heart and not after the prescribed manner that God had told them to. Look at Isaiah 1:

11 “What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices?
says the Lord;
I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
and the fat of well-fed beasts;
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
or of lambs, or of goats.
12 “When you come to appear before me,
who has required of you
this trampling of my courts?
13 Bring no more vain offerings;
incense is an abomination to me.
New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations—
I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts
my soul hates;
they have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.
15 When you spread out your hands,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even though you make many prayers,
I will not listen;
your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
17 learn to do good;
seek justice,
correct oppression;
bring justice to the fatherless,
plead the widow's cause.”

I haven't quoted it but God goes on to say “come now and let us reason together. Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be made white as snow.” How was this forgiveness going to come? By taking the Covenant that God made with them seriously and by committing themselves to the moral vision of God that the Covenant embodied.

The idea that when God sees me he sees Jesus is something that Augustine first introduced and Martin Luther probably expounded upon even more. I believe they were attempting to reconcile how it was that a righteous God can look upon evil creatures. If God cannot look upon evil and I am evil, then how can God really see me from the perspective of being rightly related to him? Ahhh, it must be that Jesus is who God sees when he looks at me since I am made righteous through Jesus (is the way the logic goes). Well, I think that this idea is kind of strange. God can look upon evil. Many times the bible says “he looked upon their evil” or he “visited their evil” or “I have seen your wicked deeds.” God cannot look past evil as if it didn't exist…he doesn't turn a blind eye to evil. So in that sense, he cannot look at evil…he cannot look at it with a neutral, ambiguous attitude.

But with respect to me, God looks squarely into my face when he decides to grant mercy to me. The part Jesus plays is that he reconciled me to God. He gave is life for me to satisfy God's desire for justice and for his desire to grant mercy. But I don't think that righteousness (Dikaiosune) can be transferred to me from Jesus. But as a gift of mercy, God does declare people righteous (dikaios) by believing in what Jesus did for them. Righteousness is a state of being declared “pardoned” in the eyes of God. When God comes to judge the world at the end of this age, he will either declare me guilty or innocent. To be righteous in this sense is the idea of God saying to me “even though you are evil and deserve to be condemned; nonetheless, because you have believed in my Son who gave his life for you, I will not punish you but I will overlook your sins.” That is far more dramatic for me to see that God is not seeing Jesus when he looks at me but that he really sees me and has had compassion and mercy upon me because of my faith in Christ Jesus.

I may have left some ends untied so pick up the discussion if you think I am overlooking something.

Quoting classyT:
" here is your time to shine....."

Much as I'm tempted to accept your challenge, NO. Really this should not be about me and my ego. It's about truth from the Bible. Regardless of WHO makes the presentation. And perhaps you're right about me being too harsh with RickJ. But I'm going to go after anyone who puts his own interpretation above that of the Bible.

This subject of righteousness is every bit as important as salvation itself. That's why we should take our time and proceed only according to what can be correctly understood from the Bible.

The basic problem I have with RickJ's answer is that he says that we can help ourselves to become righteous TOWARD salvation. That is the very same assertion many Christians make when they profess that by "Believing we beome saved." Or at the very least our believing HELPS us to become saved. I see the Bible as saying: ABSOLUTELY NOT !!!

Moreover, the reference you've given about Paul telling the jailer at Philipi how to become saved is a very valid one. BUT, and this is a very big but,. it's a trap. God put that kind of APPARENTLY crystal clear language into the Bible to test us. And the test is this: Will we look at EVERY passage in the ENTIRE Bible that has anything AT ALL to say about salvation BEFORE we DARE to draw ANY FINAL CONCLUSION about how salvation actually works ? A tall order indeed. But NOT impossible. In fact my understanding is based on such information. That is why I'm SO ADAMANT about this issue.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/what-righteousness-548359.html
Tess - I am still working on a response to our other conversation. I happen to be going through Romans now so a lot of the discussions you are raising are addressed at length in Romans.

Ok, what is righteousness? I’d like to say that righteousness is not the quality of being a good person as some people think it to mean. Biblically speaking, righteousness can be used in two different manners. It can be used to describe the nature of someone’s deeds (zedeq) in relationship to the Covenant of God or a person’s standing before God (how one is seen in the eyes of God).
First off, the term righteousness is derived from the Greek word dikaios, which means: just, right, or innocent. As it relates to the covenant, someone was dikaios (righteous) if they kept the commandments of God. What I mean is that under the Old Testament or Covenant, someone was in right standing with God by taking the covenant seriously and keeping it. A person was adikias (unrighteous) if they did not keep the commandments of God. Let me explain. Let me first say that this concept has been confused by the modern church culture and in my opinion, we have to reconsider what righteousness and unrighteousness is in the context of the Jewish culture.

If you were a Jew under the Old Testament, you were one of two people. You either loved God and obeyed his Covenant or you hated God and observed the Covenant outwardly only or openly disobeyed the Covenant. To say that someone was righteous under the Mosaic Covenant meant that he was someone who delighted inwardly in the law; someone who when it came time to offer a sacrifice to God, did so willingly and from a heart committed to live his life according to the moral vision of God embodied in the Covenant. Now, such a person was a sinner, of course. And built into the very fabric of the Covenant were provisions for sin: if you sinned, depending upon what the sin was, there was a prescribed sacrifice that you needed to offer to God in order to be dikaios (righteous) in God’s eyes. Dikaios in this sense means that when God “sees” you he looks upon you with mercy…even though you have sinned, he will not judge you; he will instead meet you with mercy.

Hi Jake,

Interesting ideas when it comes to righteousness. I think you are going to have a problem of, 'getting round' virtue ethics. When you say, "righteousness is not the quality of being a good person............"

O.T. Ethics fits in well with virtue ethics and has a long history in Western thought. A righteous person is a person who practises virtue. In other worlds, the moral character of a person is determined by how well a person adheres to rules and commands. If this were the case then it would be the end of the story. Unfortunately, things get a bit complicated when people bring up the topic of deeds or consequences of actions. This immediately creates a problem because it is difficult to reconcile the two, especially if they happen to come into conflict.

This becomes evident when we look at later Christian writers such as Aquinas. The problem then becomes reconciling the two ideas.( This is where the disagreement begins). Virtue ethics doesn't taken into account consequences. As suggest in the O.T. we can make atonement for our weakness of character by going through a ritual or procedure. We don't have any obligation to other people to do what is 'right' by them. So long as we are following 'the rules' then this is all that matters.

Going back to Ananias and Sapphiria. If A and S came to the conclusion that withholding money from the common purse was wrong. Clearly in terms of virtue ethics this is the case. The rules and commands made it a necessary requirement. If they knew their actions were wrong and admitted to themselves they are not going to do anything about it then this would seem rather strange to say the least. It would be like me saying I think it is morally wrong to cheat on my taxes, however I am not going to do anything about it. I am still going to cheat. It would be strange if I didn't even make some type of effort.

A and S no doubt suffered from the same thing we all suffer from, i.e. weakness of will from time to time There is an obvious connection between people's moral beliefs and what they do or attempt to do. There is also the knowledge that God approves of certain actions and can dramatically demonstrate his disapproval of other actions.

Such a demonstration is a motivation for others to follow commands and regulations that have been put in place. This was a motivation for everyone who witnessed the event to do the right thing but is is not an objective account of morality. It may well motivate you but it doesn't motivate you in any moral way. If God is sufficiently like us then he has attitudes towards actions. This is clearly evident with A and S. We may
Well say that it is God's attitudes that count.

The puzzle is that this is an objective account of something but it's not an objective account of morality. The thing about objectivity in morality is that the truths that can be discovered should be a motivation to action. I might have an attitude towards the tax department. My attitude is that I am going to cheat on my taxes. If I change my mind (not worried about jail time), and think it is morally wrong then I have discovered there must be something 'more' to morality then simply an attitude. Is God sufficiently like us? This is the best I can do on the topic.

Regards

Tut

HSB-

Ok. Well I disagree with you because I do NOT see faith as a work. It is faith. I'm not working to believe that Jesus is my savior... I just believe it. I accept it. How can that be work? If it is work I'm not sweating.. I'm not fasting, I'm not hoping and praying, I'm not striving, I'm just breathing.. breathing and believing. If that's work... okie dokie.
Honestly, I think we need to look at the book of Romans and see the difference between the law and grace. I'm so ADAMANT about grace and how awesome it is. It is what the Apostle Paul preached. The thing is you do not have any assurance. What is the point? Why did Jesus come here to have a relationship with us if really we can't know him?

I don't have a problem with every passage in the bible as LONG as it is put in context.

HSB-

Ok. Well i disagree with you because I do NOT see faith as a work. It is faith. I'm not working to believe that Jesus is my savior...i just believe it. I accept it. How can that be work? If it is work I'm not sweating..I'm not fasting, I'm not hoping and praying, I'm not striving, I'm just breathing..breathing and believing. If thats work...okie dokie.
Honestly, I think we need to look at the book of Romans and see the difference between the law and grace. I'm so ADAMANT about grace and how awesome it is. It is what the Apostle Paul preached. The thing is you do not have any assurance. What is the point? Why did Jesus come here to have a relationship with us if really we can't know him?

I don't have a problem with every passage in the bible as LONG as it is put in context.

"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Phil 2:12

Supposing faith really is "work." Paul says that's a good thing, and that it's a "work" that we're supposed to do that is essential for salvation.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/what-righteousness-548359.html
Tess - I am still working on a response to our other conversation. I happen to be going through Romans now so a lot of the discussions you are raising are addressed at length in Romans.

Ok, what is righteousness? I’d like to say that righteousness is not the quality of being a good person as some people think it to mean. Biblically speaking, righteousness can be used in two different manners. It can be used to describe the nature of someone’s deeds (zedeq) in relationship to the Covenant of God or a person’s standing before God (how one is seen in the eyes of God).
First off, the term righteousness is derived from the Greek word dikaios, which means: just, right, or innocent. As it relates to the covenant, someone was dikaios (righteous) if they kept the commandments of God. What I mean is that under the Old Testament or Covenant, someone was in right standing with God by taking the covenant seriously and keeping it. A person was adikias (unrighteous) if they did not keep the commandments of God. Let me explain. Let me first say that this concept has been confused by the modern church culture and in my opinion, we have to reconsider what righteousness and unrighteousness is in the context of the Jewish culture.

If you were a Jew under the Old Testament, you were one of two people. You either loved God and obeyed his Covenant or you hated God and observed the Covenant outwardly only or openly disobeyed the Covenant. To say that someone was righteous under the Mosaic Covenant meant that he was someone who delighted inwardly in the law; someone who when it came time to offer a sacrifice to God, did so willingly and from a heart committed to live his life according to the moral vision of God embodied in the Covenant. Now, such a person was a sinner, of course. And built into the very fabric of the Covenant were provisions for sin: if you sinned, depending upon what the sin was, there was a prescribed sacrifice that you needed to offer to God in order to be dikaios (righteous) in God’s eyes. Dikaios in this sense means that when God “sees” you he looks upon you with mercy…even though you have sinned, he will not judge you; he will instead meet you with mercy. So such a person is in right standing within the community of the Covenant and in the eyes of God.

The interesting thing about keeping the Covenant (and this is what Paul means when he says that the Covenant was our tutor to bring us to God) was that in keeping it, you actually learned what sort of person you were. Let’s think about this for a second. Every time you became aware of a way in which you broke one of the Commandments, you were instructed by God to offer a sacrifice. You had to go and take an animal, kill it, and its blood was to be used as a means of atoning for your sin. You can imagine that after years of living under such a covenant and sacrificing all of the animals that you did, it would become increasingly clear that there was something fundamentally wrong with you…every time you had to go and offer the sacrifice it was as if you were saying “here I go again.” Some commentators say that the Covenant was a tutor in the sense that it taught us that we couldn’t keep it. Well, I don’t think that was the case. The Covenant could be kept it was just that in keeping it, it sent home the message quite powerfully that I was an evil person…all of the sacrifices that I offered left a trail of blood behind me that left no question as to the kind of person that I was.

When Isaiah said that “all of our righteousness is like filthy rags”, he was saying that as a nation, Israel was not following the Covenant. Isaiah himself was just lumping himself into the same category as the nation because he recognized that the Covenant was one that needed to be kept as a nation. Isaiah himself was in right standing with God (righteous) but Israel as a whole was not. They were going after other gods; when they would offer a sacrifice, they would offer it profanely, not with a contrite heart and not after the prescribed manner that God had told them to. Look at Isaiah 1:

11 “What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices?
says the Lord;
I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
and the fat of well-fed beasts;
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
or of lambs, or of goats.
12 “When you come to appear before me,
who has required of you
this trampling of my courts?
13 Bring no more vain offerings;
incense is an abomination to me.
New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations—
I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts
my soul hates;
they have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.
15 When you spread out your hands,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even though you make many prayers,
I will not listen;
your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
17 learn to do good;
seek justice,
correct oppression;
bring justice to the fatherless,
plead the widow's cause.”

I haven’t quoted it but God goes on to say “come now and let us reason together. Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be made white as snow.” How was this forgiveness going to come? By taking the Covenant that God made with them seriously and by committing themselves to the moral vision of God that the Covenant embodied.

The idea that when God sees me he sees Jesus is something that Augustine first introduced and Martin Luther probably expounded upon even more. I believe they were attempting to reconcile how it was that a righteous God can look upon evil creatures. If God cannot look upon evil and I am evil, then how can God really see me from the perspective of being rightly related to him? Ahhh, it must be that Jesus is who God sees when he looks at me since I am made righteous through Jesus (is the way the logic goes). Well, I think that this idea is kind of strange. God can look upon evil. Many times the bible says “he looked upon their evil” or he “visited their evil” or “I have seen your wicked deeds.” God cannot look past evil as if it didn’t exist…he doesn’t turn a blind eye to evil. So in that sense, he cannot look at evil…he cannot look at it with a neutral, ambiguous attitude.

But with respect to me, God looks squarely into my face when he decides to grant mercy to me. The part Jesus plays is that he reconciled me to God. He gave is life for me to satisfy God’s desire for justice and for his desire to grant mercy. But I don’t think that righteousness (Dikaiosune) can be transferred to me from Jesus. But as a gift of mercy, God does declare people righteous (dikaios) by believing in what Jesus did for them. Righteousness is a state of being declared “pardoned” in the eyes of God. When God comes to judge the world at the end of this age, he will either declare me guilty or innocent. To be righteous in this sense is the idea of God saying to me “even though you are evil and deserve to be condemned; nonetheless, because you have believed in my Son who gave his life for you, I will not punish you but I will overlook your sins.” That is far more dramatic for me to see that God is not seeing Jesus when he looks at me but that he really sees me and has had compassion and mercy upon me because of my faith in Christ Jesus.

I may have left some ends untied so pick up the discussion if you think I am overlooking something.

Well you have A LOT in this post. But I'm going to touch on just a few things tonight. I think GRACE is sooo much more than God looking at me and saying "even though you are evil and deserve to be condmened; nonetheless, because you hav believed in my Son who gave his life for you, i will not punish you but I will overlook your sins".
Oh my Jake GRACE is sooo much more than that. Just as Jesus didn't deserve to be MADE sin for me... I don't deserve to be make RIGHTEOUS but in God's eyes I AM. He sees perfection when he looks at me.. just like he saw SIN when he looked at the LordJesus at calvary. It is EVEN STEVEN. That is what makes grace the most outstanding, awesome thing in the world. Now I'm not saying I can go out and do something boneheaded and there is no consequence. He always disciplines his own.. but never punishes. It is KNOWING that I am accepted in the beloved no matter WHAT that makes me long to please him. I'm righteous.. I can boldly enter the throne of grace without shame. It is about WHO I am now.. not what I do. I have verses to back all this up but I can't get to them right now.

There is so much more I want to say but alas my son needs the computer for school. Thanks for your post... it is good and is making me think.

Well you have A LOT in this post. But I'm going to touch on just a few things tonight. I think GRACE is sooo much more than God looking at me and saying "even though you are evil and deserve to be condmened; nonetheless, because you hav believed in my Son who gave his life for you, i will not punish you but I will overlook your sins".
Oh my Jake GRACE is sooo much more than that. Just as Jesus didn't deserve to be MADE sin for me....i don't deserve to be make RIGHTEOUS but in God's eyes I AM. He sees perfection when he looks at me..just like he saw SIN when he looked at the LordJesus at calvary. It is EVEN STEVEN. That is what makes grace the most outstanding, awesome thing in the world. Now i'm not saying I can go out and do something boneheaded and there is no consequence. He always disciplines his own..but never punishes. It is KNOWING that i am accepted in the beloved no matter WHAT that makes me long to please him. I'm righteous..i can boldly enter the throne of grace without shame. It is about WHO I am now..not what I do. I have verses to back all this up but i can't get to them right now.

There is so much more I want to say but alas my son needs the computer for school. Thanks for your post...it is good and is making me think.

Tess,
I think you and Jakester are saying essentially the same thing. He speaks of compassion and mercy, you speak of grace. They're various sides of the same coin, in a very real sense. I really don't see any essential disagreement between what he said and what you're saying. And for what it's worth, I wholeheartedly agree with both of you.

"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Phil 2:12

Supposing faith really is "work." Paul says that's a good thing, and that it's a "work" that we're supposed to do that is essential for salvation.
But we don't do the work of Justification. Jesus did that.

We don't help God find us and come to us wherever we are. God does that all by Himself.

We DO participate with the Holy Spirit in Sanctification, "keeping us in faith." We make God-pleasing choices, not bad ones. That's the only "working out of our own salvation" that we do.

Quoting Wondergirl:
"We make God-pleasing choices, not bad ones."

I don't trust theological terms like "sanctification." Though I know what the word itself means. But it's much too easy to twist the $5.00 words and use them to obscure the plain meaning. I would define "making God-pleasing choices" as simply obedience to the best of our ability. Though we all know that we fail to obey from time to time. So does that mean we are not saved then ? Have the saved ones then lost their justification ? I believe NOT.

And I would strongly deny that our obedience is essential to "justification." If by justification you mean God's work of having selected the saved ones, and having made payment for their sins.

Finally I would like to say, for the purposes of this discussion, that I consider "justification" the essence of salvation. And "the working out of our salvation with fear and trembling" can be re-written, for the sake of clarification only, as "the working out (of) the details of our lives with fear and trembling." And that applies ONLY to those who have already been justified.

"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Phil 2:12

Supposing faith really is "work." Paul says that's a good thing, and that it's a "work" that we're supposed to do that is essential for salvation.

Well I guess you are right kind of, sort of. But he cannot be talking about working out salvation so that we can be saved from our sins. Because he is clear that happened when we believed.

Instead it is a picture of our new life where all our needs – need for forgiveness, deliverance, healing, provision – are supplied according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus. Phil 4:19 Jesus did so much more than just save us from our sins, he delivered us from the curse, he bore our sickeness and diseases. So we need to work that out in our lives... sometimes it is very scary to believe and trust God especially when we don't see the answer in front of us. Keep on believing , keep on trusting, keep on renewing your mind. That's my take. It goes along with what Paul says concerning grace, salvation, and works. Am I off the wall here?

I would define "making God-pleasing choices" as simply obedience to the best of our ability.
Six of one and a half dozen of the other. Same difference. Your words are as inexpensive as mine.

And I would strongly deny that our obedience is essential to "justification."
I agree.

If by justification you mean God's work of having selected the saved ones, and having made payment for their sins.
I disagree. ALL are saved. Some say no, but thanks anyway.

Finally I would like to say, for the purposes of this discussion, that I consider "justification" the essence of salvation.
I agree.

And "the working out of our salvation with fear and trembling" can be re-written, for the sake of clarification only, as "the working out (of) the details of our lives with fear and trembling." And that applies ONLY to those who have already been justified.
That makes no sense. What "details of our lives"?

Moreover, the reference you've given about Paul telling the jailer at Philipi how to become saved is a very valid one. BUT, and this is a very big but, ....it's a trap. God put that kind of APPARENTLY crystal clear language into the Bible to test us. And the test is this: Will we look at EVERY passage in the ENTIRE Bible that has anything AT ALL to say about salvation BEFORE we DARE to draw ANY FINAL CONCLUSION about how salvation actually works ? A tall order indeed. But NOT impossible. In fact my understanding is based on such information. That is why I'm SO ADAMANT about this issue.

Good GRIEF Headstrong.. who raised you? You don't trust people or God at all. He isn't trying to trap anyone. He is calling out a people for his namesake.. who? Whosoever will may come. He is love... he isn't into trickery. He loves you... why is that such a hard thing for you to accept?

Am i off the wall here?

Always :D:p But seriously... I agree with everything you said. My point was that, even supposing that faith is a "work" as HSB tries to insist, that does NOT mean it isn't a requirement for salvation.

Faith, especially in the New Testament, is an active thing. It's not something that can be quantified or measured, it's not a commodity or a "thing" or even a feeling. It's a doing. In fact, I generally prefer to say "trust," because that implies something I actually do and not just something I can claim to "have." And in the New Testament the two words are pretty much synonymous: I have faith in Jesus as my savior/I trust Jesus as my savior. Or the old saw, faith is F-A-I-T-H: Forsaking All I Trust Him.

In a very real sense, "faith" in the New Testament is a verb.

Tess,
I think you and Jakester are saying essentially the same thing. He speaks of compassion and mercy, you speak of grace. They're various sides of the same coin, in a very real sense. I really don't see any essential disagreement between what he said and what you're saying. And for what it's worth, I wholeheartedly agree with both of you.

Maybe we were. I just want him to totally encompass all that grace is all that Jesus died to give us. Plus I disagreed with him over the A&S question. I hardly ever disagree with him. You can't mix law with grace. They either were not being delt with under grace or they were simply not saved. Otherwise it makes no sense. It doesn't fit with grace.. the Lord wasn't looking at them as the righteousness of Christ and accpeted in the beloved. No way, no how. YIKES.. of course that revelation hadn't been revealed when they died. OK... I will shut up. No one agrees with me. See HSB... we don't always pat each other on the back.

Quoting classyT:
"he loves you...why is that such a hard thing for you to accept?"

I do accept it, but with qualifications. He continues to love the whole world by making the "sun to shine and the (benevolent) rain to fall on the just and on the unjust." And He offers the Bible (His message) to all. But not all will be saved, because not all sins have been paid for. So in a way you COULD say, for the sake of this discussion, that the offer of salvation to all is NOT ENTIRELY SINCERE.

Quoting classyT:
"he loves you...why is that such a hard thing for you to accept?"

I do accept it, but with qualifications.
That's your limitation, your failing, not His.

Quoting Wondergirl:
"That's your limitation, your failing, not His"

You've jumped on my words without understanding my complete meaning. If I could, if it would make the least difference I would CERTAINLY ACCEPT the great gift of salvation (justification). The problem is that that great gift IS NOT AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE, just for the asking. God has already decided who IS GOING to and WHO IS NOT GOING TO GET IT. Regardless of anything we might think, say, or do.

Quoting Wondergirl:
"That's your limitation, your failing, not His"

You've jumped on my words without understanding my complete meaning ... God has already decided who IS GOING to and WHO IS NOT GOING TO GET IT. Regardless of anything we might think, say, or do.
You are misunderstanding what has been written in the Bible, especially the Gospel. You are making salvation so difficult, almost impossible. That's not how it is -- praise God!

Maybe we were. I just want him to totally encompass all that grace is all that Jesus died to give us. Plus I disagreed with him over the A&S question. I hardly ever disagree with him. You can't mix law with grace. They either were not being delt with under grace or they were simply not saved. Otherwise it makes no sense. It doesn't fit with grace..the Lord wasn't looking at them as the righteousness of Christ and accpeted in the beloved. No way, no how. YIKES..of course that revelation hadn't been revealed when they died. ok.....i will shut up. No one agrees with me. See HSB...we don't always pat each other on the back.

Hey Tess - ouch, so I'm mixing the law with grace, huh? Man, I don't think I've ever heard a harsher charged leveled against me than that but OK. Actually, I thought you agreed with me on the A&S question but you still had a hang up the question of it being under the law or grace.

If I am mixing the law with grace, you know what Paul's charge to such people is? That they should be cut off. I won't answer that charge but it does make me realize how challenging it is to convey ideas through this medium... sometimes a simple face-to-face conversation would melt away any confusion or mis-communication... I would prefer that. But I am slowly coming to the realization that sometimes these internet exchanges are exercises in futility.

At any rate, thanks guys. This has been an interesting discussion.

Off Thread ----------------

hey Tess - ouch, so I'm mixing the law with grace, huh? Man, I don't think I've ever heard a harsher charged leveled against me than that but ok. Actually, I thought you agreed with me on the A&S question but you still had a hang up the question of it being under the law or grace.

If I am mixing the law with grace, you know what Paul's charge to such people is? That they should be cut off. I won't answer that charge but it does make me realize how challenging it is to convey ideas through this medium...sometimes a simple face-to-face conversation would melt away any confusion or mis-communication...I would prefer that. But I am slowly coming to the realization that sometimes these internet exchanges are exercises in futility.

At any rate, thanks guys. This has been an interesting discussion.

Off Thread ----------------

Tess is capable of answering for herself, of course, but I don't think she was accusing you of anything. As you said, this is a limited medium. The impression I get from the paragraph is that she was sort of musing out loud and trying to sort it all out, not really pointing fingers. Obviously you're free to bow out of the thread if you want to, but please don't do it because of something like that.

No one agrees with me. See HSB...we don't always pat each other on the back.

No, but we love you anyway!

Sally is made righteous when she believes (i.e., when the Spirit brings her to faith).

I agree.

But Sally does not remain "righteous" no matter what she does afterward, would you not agree?

Quoting Wondergirl:
"You are misunderstanding what has been written in the Bible, especially the Gospel."

Not at all. In fact you're the one[/U ]who's choosing to interpret it incorrectly. And I can show you EXACTLY HOW. It's the word "ALL." You prefer to think that it is LITERALLY everyone who's ever lived. Not so. The word "all" MUST BE CONDITIONED by everything God says in the Bible. For example:
[1]"... the vessels of mercy which He had [U]afore prepared unto glory." Romans 9:23
[2]"Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth. Romans 9:18
[3]"the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." Romans 9:22

Clearly NOT ALL have been prepared to be saved. Thus NOT ALL sins have been paid for. OR are you saying that God has indeed paid for all sins, BUT some of those He paid for are going to slip out of His hand ? If that is the case, what about John 6:39 ? "...that of all which He hath given me I should lose nothing..."

The conclusion is that "all" in reference to salvation must mean "all that were chosen."

Quoting RickJ:
I can't explain it.

If I didn't know better, I'd say you're evading my point. But you wouldn't do that. Nah ! Would you ? You didn't earn your reputation without knowing how to sidestep a few land mines. I'll bet.

The scriptures I've referred to have a direct bearing on your quote "God, through Christ, helps us to become righteous but it needs our active cooperation."

In case you haven't guessed it, I'm trying to refute your quoted statement. But perhaps I should more carefully analyze it before I endeavor to "take on" such a distinguished personage as yourslf.

As you and most others here know, the definition and life meaning for terms such as justification, righteousness, sanctification, salvation, etc. have been debated for centuries.

Think of 10 good Christians that you know and I bet you'll have many different definitions/explanations among them about these terms... but that's OK.

When we get to heaven, we can spend the first 10,000 enjoying good laughs about how we thought that we were so smart here on earth.

So back to the issue, here is a great explanation from allaboutfollowingjesus.org (bold and italics are mine):

In 1 Corinthians 1:2, the Apostle Paul describes the relationship between positional sanctification and progressive sanctification, "To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy…" Christians are both "sanctified in Christ Jesus" and "called to be holy." The Greek words for "sanctified" and "holy" are from the same root word. A Christian is holy and called to be holy at the same time.

That, by the way is not a Catholic website, but the Catholics believe the same thing... which is why the earlier author that I quoted used the phrase term "active participation".

It's why, also, we can say that we are Saved, are being Saved, and will be Saved.

We are talking about Gifts from God. We can accept them, but then we must use them. After accepting them, we can misuse them or discard them.

Tess is capable of answering for herself, of course, but I don't think she was accusing you of anything. As you said, this is a limited medium. The impression I get from the paragraph is that she was sort of musing out loud and trying to sort it all out, not really pointing fingers. Obviously you're free to bow out of the thread if you want to, but please don't do it because of something like that.

Oh Jake, I wouldn't have hurt you for a million trillion years! Maybe I just don't understand what you are saying. Dave thinks we are saying the same thing. I didn't think we argeed on S&A. I will go back and look. I was so tired when I got on and wrote that.. I was really thinking out loud. I think you are brilliant in the word. OH gosh I just feel terrible.

Quoting Wondergirl:
"You are misunderstanding what has been written in the Bible, especially the Gospel."

Not at all. In fact you're the one[/U ]who's choosing to interpret it incorrectly. And I can show you EXACTLY HOW. It's the word "ALL." You prefer to think that it is LITERALLY everyone who's ever lived. Not so. The word "all" MUST BE CONDITIONED by everything God says in the Bible. For example:
[1]"...the vessels of mercy which He had [U]afore prepared unto glory." Romans 9:23
[2]"Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth. Romans 9:18
[3]"the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." Romans 9:22

Clearly NOT ALL have been prepared to be saved. Thus NOT ALL sins have been paid for. OR are you saying that God has indeed paid for all sins, BUT some of those He paid for are going to slip out of His hand ? If that is the case, what about John 6:39 ? "...that of all which He hath given me I should lose nothing..."

The conclusion is that "all" in reference to salvation must mean "all that were chosen."


So then how would you explain 1 Timothy 2?

1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

Quoting RickJ:
"So then how would you explain 1 Timothy 2?"

May I point out that you are making the classic error I have already indicated. You're assuming that the
"all" of verse 1 has the identical application of the "alls" that refer to salvation. And as I have endeavored to demonstrate, THAT CANNOT BE THE CASE.

I don't know how else to say it at the moment. CLEARLY NOT ALL have been pre-destined to be saved. And God is not bound by some rules of writing to use the word all in a consistent way in every paragraph. The context of salvation is very special and should not be lumped together with praying for the worldly good of all men.

Quoting RickJ:
"So then how would you explain 1 Timothy 2?"

May I point out that you are making the classic error...

Yes, you may point out that it is your opinion that I have made a "classic error"... and you have done so.

We will just have to agree to disagree ;)

Quoting RickJ:
"It's why, also, we can say that we are Saved, are being Saved, and will be Saved."

Thanks for the offering of that posting. I've already rated it as helpful. If I may, I can add some additional light to this issue. And it's not because I'm so smart. But, God has been merciful and allowed me to LEARN many things about the gospel that I was confused about before.

Here goes. Fact is that the human personality consists of two parts, IN VERY SIMPLE BIBLICAL TERMS.
[1] The body. [2] The soul (or the spirit essence - which is NOT equivalent to "the breath of life.") "The breath of life" is also translated as "SPIRIT" in the Bible. To distinguish between the two (soul and breath) it's necessary to look at the original language AND the context. But I digress.

In reference to salvation... while we're alive in this world, and have become saved... IT IS ONLY THE SOUL (spirit essence) that has been renewed, or born again. Our bodies, sadly, REMAIN IN THEIR UNSAVED SINFUL CONDITION, until either we die, or the rapture happens to us. I hope that helps. If required I'm willing and able to give references that support my declaration.

CLEARLY NOT ALL have been pre-destined to be saved. Could you explain that a bit? It seems by that statement that god picks and choose who can be saved.

Quoting NeedKarma:
Quoting HeadStrongBoy: CLEARLY NOT ALL have been pre-destined to be saved. Could you explain that a bit? It seems by that statement that god picks and choose who can be saved.

Absolutely ! Perceptive of you. But right now I'm working on my breakfast. If you'll be a little bit patient I'll get back ASAP.

Quoting Wondergirl:
"You are misunderstanding what has been written in the Bible, especially the Gospel."

Not at all. In fact you're the one[/U ]who's choosing to interpret it incorrectly. And I can show you EXACTLY HOW. It's the word "ALL." You prefer to think that it is LITERALLY everyone who's ever lived. Not so. The word "all" MUST BE CONDITIONED by everything God says in the Bible. For example:
[1]"...the vessels of mercy which He had [U]afore prepared unto glory." Romans 9:23
[2]"Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth. Romans 9:18
[3]"the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." Romans 9:22

Clearly NOT ALL have been prepared to be saved. Thus NOT ALL sins have been paid for. OR are you saying that God has indeed paid for all sins, BUT some of those He paid for are going to slip out of His hand ? If that is the case, what about John 6:39 ? "...that of all which He hath given me I should lose nothing..."

The conclusion is that "all" in reference to salvation must mean "all that were chosen."

No, "all" means "all." It doesn't mean that some of those he paid for are "going to slip out of His hand," it means that even though the price has been paid and the gift of life has been offered, not all are going to accept it.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Rom 8:29

Is there a kind of predestination taught in the Bible? Of course. God is omniscient. But is this predestination just arbitrary? No. It's based on the fact that God knows who is going to come to him and who isn't. Humans have a choice: accept or reject. God knows what the choice will be, but we are still free and responsible to make that choice. It's hard to reconcile in the mind, because God is truly sovereign and we are truly responsible for our choice to accept or reject. I don't pretend to understand it; that's why he's God and I'm not (you should drop to your knees and be thankful for that!). The two things reconcile in his mind, but I can't comprehend it because I'm finite.

But the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus died for everyone, past, present and future. But it's as if you only have ten cents to your name and live on the street, but somehow you win a multimillion dollar lottery. That money is yours, right? Wrong. It's not yours until you go to the lottery office and claim it. If you refuse, you don't get it. The money has legitimately been offered to you, and it's yours to claim, but you reject it. Salvation is the same way. Jesus died for everyone, including person X. But person X chooses either not to believe it or to ignore the consequences of not receiving it, and finishes his life without it. He's not saved. God has no choice of what to do with him after that, and He knew it was going to happen, but person X is still responsible for his choice to reject what was freely and legitimately offered.

Absolutely ! Perceptive of you. But right now I'm working on my breakfast. If you'll be a little bit patient I'll get back ASAP.No rush, it won't change my life. LOL!
I was just thinking "hey, if it's pre-destined what's the point in trying".

it's as if you only have ten cents to your name and live on the street, but somehow you win a multimillion dollar lottery. That money is yours, right? Wrong. It's not yours until you go to the lottery office and claim it.
God does even better than that. He leaves the lottery office and looks for me out on the street and finds me and tells me that I've won the lottery.

That's when I have the opportunity to say I'm interested or not.

No rush, it won't change my life. LOL!
I was just thinking "hey, if it's pre-destined what's the point in trying".

NK,

EXACTLY! It isn't the gospel. It isn't what Paul preached to unbelievers AT ALL. Anyone can come... and everyone will be held accountable.

That's a mighty long breakfast he's having. Hehe.

NK,

EXACTLY! It isn't the gospel. It isn't what Paul preached to unbelievers AT ALL. Anyone can come...and everyone will be held accountable.

Amen, Sister!

Quoting classyT:
"he loves you...why is that such a hard thing for you to accept?"

I do accept it, but with qualifications. He continues to love the whole world by making the "sun to shine and the (benevolent) rain to fall on the just and on the unjust." And He offers the Bible (His message) to all. But not all will be saved, because not all sins have been paid for. So in a way you COULD say, for the sake of this discussion, that the offer of salvation to all is NOT ENTIRELY SINCERE.

Then God is a deceiver and when the books are open at the great white throne judgement the ones that rejected Christ have an excuse. It won't be their fault.

Quoting dwashbur:
"But is this predestination just arbitrary? No. It's based on the fact that God knows who is going to come to him and who isn't. Humans have a choice: accept or reject. God knows what the choice will be, but we are still free and responsible to make that choice. It's hard to reconcile in the mind, because God is truly sovereign and we are truly responsible for our choice to accept or reject."

I know that the explanation you've offered is the one accepted by mainstrean christianity. But the fact remains that it's WRONG. One of the main points of confusion is that the concept of personal responsibility for living a moral life has become somehow entangled with God's total and complete autonomy when it comes to determining who has and who will become saved. The distinction needs to be made, and it needs to be maintained that no matter how morally or imorally a person may choose to live, that choice has nothing to do with how or why God chose the individuals that He chose to be saved.

I know there's more to be said, but that's my big point for now. If you want to find scriptural support or refutation for that point, we can do that next.

HSB, please, please, please use the quote feature. Then you won't have to copy, paste, and underline. Once you have used the quote feature to bring a poster's words onto your screen, you can then edit that quote by deleting the parts that you don't want to respond to.

I know that the explanation you've offered is the one accepted by mainstrean christianity. But the fact remains that it's WRONG.
You and Mr. Camping have willy-nilly decided to go against hundreds of years of study and thought that have been put into this by some of the greatest minds that have ever existed?

Quoting Wondergirl:
"HSB, please, please, please use the quote feature."

Call me computer illiterate. Call me excitable and impatient. But I did post a question about that, and the smart people who answered it were not able to enlighten me. The fact is I would. But I just haven't figured out how to do it. I apologize. Maybe you would be so kind as to teach me how. In very plain and simple step by step fashion...PLEASE !!!

You and Mr. Camping have willy-nilly decided to go against hundreds of years of study and thought that have been put into this by some of the greatest minds that have ever existed?
WG, c'mon now, he only has 50 days to live!

Maybe you would be so kind as to teach me how. In very plain and simple step by step fashion...PLEASE !!!
Do you see a Quote button at the bottom of your screen?

WG, c'mon now, he only has 50 days to live!
My mother always said, "Better to be safe than sorry."

Quoting Wondergirl:
"Do you see a Quote button at the bottom of your screen?"

I think I've finally found the "quote" button. Under the body of the original question is a "Manage" button. A sub-heading under Manage is "Quote and Answer." The problem remains that I don't know how to select the particular post that I wish to answer.

Quoting Wondergirl:
"Do you see a Quote button at the bottom of your screen?"

I think i've finally found the "quote" button. Under the body of the original question is a "Manage" button. A sub-heading under Manage is "Quote and Answer." The problem remains that I don't know how to select the particular post that i wish to answer.
It should be post specific. Try it now. (Please don't make me leave the skin I'm on to fiddle around with the one you're on.)

(Please don't make me leave the skin I'm on to fiddle around with the one you're on.)That's what I'm doing now. It very much depends on which skin the user is using. But it should be a blue "Quote User" button at the bottom of every post. I swithched to the LightV2 for this, not sure how to get to the Go skin to see what that looks like.

Quoting HeadStrongBoy:

Quoting Wondergirl:
"Do you see a Quote button at the bottom of your screen?"

I think I've finally found the "quote" button. Under the body of the original question is a "Manage" button. A sub-heading under Manage is "Quote and Answer." The problem remains that I don't know how to select the particular post that I wish to answer. It should be post specific. Try it now. (Please don't make me leave the skin I'm on to fiddle around with the one you're on.)

Is this it ?

That's what I'm doing now. It very much depends on which skin the user is using. But it should be a blue "Quote User" button at the bottom of every post. I swithched to the LightV2 for this, not sure how to get to the Go skin to see what that looks like.
*sigh* Okay. I'll trudge over to GO to work on this.

Is this it ?
Bingo!

<golf clap>

No Yes Is this helpful? Wondergirl 12900 Reputation
Jobs & Parenting Expert, Spring is coming... isn't it?? Quoting HeadStrongBoy:

I know that the explanation you've offered is the one accepted by mainstrean christianity. But the fact remains that it's WRONG. You and Mr. Camping have willy-nilly decided to go against hundreds of years of study and thought that have been put into this by some of the greatest minds that have ever existed?

So many interesting posts to reply to. So little time.

Thanks for the effort of showing me the buttons.

Bingo!
This method of quoting on GO seems very labor intensive.

This method of quoting on GO seems very labor intensive.
Well you know I agree with you there!

*shudder* Sorry it took me so long to get back. I had to take a quick shower to get the GO globules off.

Quoting wondergirl:

You and Mr. Camping have willy-nilly decided to go against hundreds of years of study and thought that have been put into this by some of the greatest minds that have ever existed?

It isn't that Mr. Camping and many other of his followers are any smarter or any better people than the scholars you've mentioned. But there is a very important concept you should be aware of. It's called "progressive revelation." The words of the Bible, in the original languages, have remained unchanged for centuries but God has in these last days revealed much new understanding from those very same words. The books of Daniel and Revelation tell of a book that was "sealed up till the time of the end." That book is the Bible itself. God has in our time opened up, removed the seals so to speak, and those who are selected are able to understand much that has heretofore been misunderstood. The result is a gospel that sounds entirely foreign to those who are not accustomed to it.

... those who are selected ...How are these people selected?

God has in these last days revealed much new understanding
To Mr. Camping.

those who are selected are able to understand much that has heretofore been misunderstood.
Mr. Camping again.

It isn't that Mr. Camping and many other of his followers are any smarter or any better people
They must be if he/they have this inside information.

The result is a gospel that sounds entirely foreign to those who are not accustomed to it.
You got that right!

NeedKarma 7629 Reputation
Ãœber Member, I have a mustache and a pipe! Quoting HeadStrongBoy:

... those who are selected... How are these people selected?

Let me preface my answer by saying that knowledge of salvation is not the same thing as salvation itself. That could be subject of another discussion, because I recall dwashbur's emphatic denial of the preceding fact.

OK. How are they selected ? Poor choice of words on my part. I apologize. Being in a company of people such as we are, very proud, I should not want to give the impression that any kind of a spiritual elite has been created.

The simplest answer I can think of comes directly from the Bible. And I quote. "...God resisteth the proud but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6) In practice that translates into an attitude toward the Bible as the very words of God Himself. NOT the words of mere persons "inspired" by God.

Quoting dwashbur:
"But is this predestination just arbitrary? No. It's based on the fact that God knows who is going to come to him and who isn't. Humans have a choice: accept or reject. God knows what the choice will be, but we are still free and responsible to make that choice. It's hard to reconcile in the mind, because God is truly sovereign and we are truly responsible for our choice to accept or reject."

I know that the explanation you've offered is the one accepted by mainstrean christianity. But the fact remains that it's WRONG. One of the main points of confusion is that the concept of personal responsibility for living a moral life has become somehow entangled with God's total and complete autonomy when it comes to determining who has and who will become saved. The distinction needs to be made, and it needs to be maintained that no matter how morally or imorally a person may choose to live, that choice has nothing to do with how or why God chose the individuals that He chose to be saved.

I know there's more to be said, but that's my big point for now. If you want to find scriptural support or refutation for that point, we can do that next.

I couldn't care less what "mainstream christianity" says about anything. It's what I read in the Bible. But the fact is, it's not wrong, it's what the Bible actually teaches. I don't care how you or Mr. Camping or anybody else tries to get around it, this is what the Bible says: he who believes will be saved, whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, anyone who comes to me will not be cast out, and all the rest. I said nothing at all about "personal responsibility for living a moral life"; that's you twisting my words again. I only spoke of personal responsibility for receiving the salvation that God offers. That's it. Please don't read extra stuff into what I write. We are talking about this one and only area of responsibility, so stick to the subject, please.

In another post, it becomes clear that both Mr. Camping and you have thoroughly misunderstood the theological concept of Progressive Revelation. It refers only to the Bible, and the progress of God's revelation to humankind from Genesis to Revelation. The two of you have also really munged the statement in Daniel, because it refers only to what was given specifically to Daniel himself (look at it in context and without Mr. Camping muddying up the waters). And the "time of the end" refers to the time after Jesus' resurrection, not any specific point in the so-called Church Age.

Ever since Jesus rose, various people have popped up claiming to have some special revelation, and there are those who follow them. They may be sincere, but they're sincerely wrong. The Bible is the only reliable guide we have, and we are responsible to interpret it correctly. You are not doing so because you are following somebody who claims to have some of that special revelation. He doesn't. You don't. I don't. That's why we all need each other, because we're all equal in the Lord's eyes.

Hopefully on May 22 you'll realize this, and if you're ready to return to the fold, we'll be here to help you find your way.

]FIrst, I'd like to congratulate the original poster for not simply accepting things he/she is told but rather resolving why it is or is not accurate with gods word. This is something we all must do.

Ephesians 4:24 tell us we "should put on the new personality which was created according to God's will in true righteousness and loyalty" (NWT). What is this new personality? Ephesians 4:20-5:24 outlines this very well.

Romans 5:12 tells us that we are all sinful as we inherited it by birth. Many men (King David, Moses, Job, Saul/Paul) and women (Rahab of the city of Jericho) who were sinners (some even engaged at one time in gross sin) were yet declared righteous in the bible.

How could God consider them righteous? Romans 4:8 (NWT) tells us “Happy is the man whose sin Jehovah will by no means take into account.� God forgave their sins and accepted them as the righteous people that he deemed them to be. For those who had engaged in gross sin, this was of course after they discontinued their offensive conduct and showed remorse for it.

dwashbur:

he who believes will be saved, whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, anyone who comes to me will not be cast out, and all the rest. I said nothing at all about "personal responsibility for living a moral life"; that's you twisting my words again.

Excuse me. I have no intention of twisting your words. I'm only saying that God's command to us to believe the gospel can be considered a part of morality in general. My definition of morality is simply obedience to God's commandments. One of His commandments is that we should believe. If we then obey by believing, that is a good work we are doing.

If we then obey by believing, that is a good work we are doing.
Yay for us! Work righteousness at its finest!

dwashbur:

Humans have a choice: accept or reject.

Absolutely not ! How do you explain John 6:39 ? The Father has given Jesus all of humanity that ever lived ? But many of them will reject the offer and not become saved ?

Show from scriptures that your view is correct. Don't sidestep by saying you will not repeat yourself.

Wondergirl this is for you.

Quoting HeadStrongBoy:

Quoting RickJ:
"God, through Christ, helps us to become righteous but it needs our active cooperation."

OK then how would you explain this ? "... that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you." Exodus 31:13.

"And they that found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron." (Numbers 15:33) "And the LORD said to Moses the man shall surely be put to death... " Numbers 15:35

Wondergirl this is for you.
Why is that for me? I've said all along that we can accept Jesus as Savior only by the power of the Holy Spirit. We can reject Him of our own free will.

Wondergirl:

accept Jesus as Savior only by the power of the Holy Spirit. We can reject Him of our own free will.

I see the Bible saying that it's not about our accepting or rejecting. Don't you see that ?

God does the accepting or rejecting. You have it reversed, as do many who believe in so called human free will, particularly in reference to salvation.

Headstrong,

I did a whole thread on predestination. I'm NOT going to say that I completely understand it any more than I completely understand the trinity. I'm not even sure that I have the concept correct. I always thought we were predestinated. Does this surprise you? Now, I don't know. BUT THIS I do know. IF and that is a big IF, we are predestinated to become saved, it isn't the gospel and it isn't something you go around preaching to the unbelieving world. AND... somehow, someway, MAN is ultimately responsible for what they do with the Lord Jesus Christ. It isn't the gospel. It isn't a something that Paul preached or wrote about to the unbelieving world. Otherwise the Apostle Paul's life would have been a waste and it wasn't.

In revelation it states that after the great white throne judgement, a whole list of different types of people are thrown into the lake of fire... one of group is simply the UNbelieving. Man is without excuse.

Wondergirl:


I see the Bible saying that it's not about our accepting or rejecting. Don't you see that ?

God does the accepting or rejecting. You have it reversed, as do many who believe in so called human free will, particularly in reference to salvation.
You quoted one passage to prove my point --
"... that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you." Exodus 31:13.

The Father creates, the Son redeems, and the Spirit sanctifies. I agree with Luther's definition of Sanctification, "I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life."

God comes to us where we are:
1 Corinthians 2:14 "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."
Ephesians 2:1 "You were dead in your transgressions and sins."
Romans 8:7 "The sinful mind is hostile to God."
Ephesians 2:8,9 "By grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast."
1 Corinthians 12:3 "No one can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit."

Faith occurs through the Word -- not a mental acceptance of the word of God, but rather a basic reorientation of the heart and a redirection of life. (Faith is a verb.) Eph. 2:8,9 tells us that faith is a gift of God. Man's self has no capacity to do anything to actively will itself into a saving relationship with God; man is estranged from God and cannot overcome that by his own efforts. God’s grace comes first without any effort by man and includes a redirection of man’s capacity to will and work.

Luther: "Those who insist upon decision without ascribing the credit to God distort the meaning of faith by making it a work. On the other hand, those who stress the activity of God without reference to human decision, make automations and objects out of men."

Headstrong,

I did a whole thread on predestination. I'm NOT going to say that i completely understand it any more than I completely understand the trinity. I'm not even sure that I have the concept correct. I always thought we were predestinated. does this suprise you? Now, I don't know. BUT THIS i do know. IF and that is a big IF, we are predestinated to become saved, it isn't the gospel and it isn't something you go around preaching to the unbelieving world. AND.....somehow, someway, MAN is ultimately responsible for what they do with the Lord Jesus Christ. It isn't the gospel. It isn't a something that Paul preached or wrote about to the unbelieving world. Otherwise the Apostle Paul's life would have been a waste and it wasn't.

In revelation it states that after the great white throne judgement, a whole list of different types of people are thrown into the lake of fire...one of group is simply the UNbelieving. Man is without excuse.

Hi Tess,

Ultimately I think you are right. I would argue that predestination is incompatible with free will. Perhaps this might help...

Determinism: There is a shark in the water.

Fatalism: The shark is going to eat me.

Free will: I am going swimming.

Predestination: I am going swimming and a shark will eat me.


Regards

Tut

Hi Tess,

Ultimately I think you are right. I would argue that predestination is incompatible with free will. Perhaps this might help.......

Determinism: There is a shark in the water.

Fatalism: The shark is going to eat me.

Free will: I am going swimming.

Predestination: I am going swimming and a shark will eat me.


Regards

Tut

As I've said before, I don't necessarily agree with the idea of "free will" as usually defined. I prefer to speak of "responsibility." God holds us responsible for the choices we make, even though he knows what those choices are going to be. The only predestination I see Paul speaking of is God predestining us to be conformed to the image of Jesus. Other places he speaks of God's foreknowledge of who will receive him, but those who do and those who don't are still responsible and answerable for their choices. Somewhere beyond the horizon in the mind of God, those two ideas coalesce into something that makes sense, but our finite minds can't grasp it because we're finite creatures trying to comprehend the infinite. It's an annoying limitation, but for the time being we're stuck with it.

Dave,

Paul goes even further than that. Yes he does say we are predestinated to be conformed but there are some verses in Ephesians that are interesting ( I know you already know... Mr. smartypants)

Eph. 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


Even if we are somehow predestinated like John Calvin believed, we are still responsible. So we agree... kinda, sort of. You just want to be stubborn about the whole predestinated thing. ( :) )

Hi Tess,

Ultimately I think you are right. I would argue that predestination is incompatible with free will. Perhaps this might help.......

Determinism: There is a shark in the water.

Fatalism: The shark is going to eat me.

Free will: I am going swimming.

Predestination: I am going swimming and a shark will eat me.


Regards

Tut



Tut,

You are an interesting person and your posts are smart and thought provoking. However, I read some stuff you wrote in a discussion thread on religion. You don't believe Jesus is the only way, or do I have that wrong? Just wondering.

WG,

Sorry. I need to work on my spelling and English. Ha ha.. thanks for giving me a greenie instead of a slap. That's what they need! A button to click that slaps the person posting. :D

WG,

sorry. I need to work on my spelling and English. ha ha..thanks for giving me a greenie instead of a slap. That's what they need! a button to click that slaps the person posting. :D
I was going to PM you, but thought others might benefit from the spelling lesson. :D Those two words are very much like another pair that is misspelled/misused - "orientated" instead of the correct "orient." Another pair is "excepted" and "accepted."

I'll not define them, but give you the golden opportunity to look them up and see the differences. :) (Aren't you glad you know me?? )

Dave,

Paul goes even further than that. yes he does say we are predestinated to be conformed but there are some verses in Ephesians that are interesting ( i know you already know.....Mr. smartypants)

eph. 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


Even if we are somehow predestinated like John Calvin believed, we are still responsible. so we agree....kinda, sorta. You just want to be stubborn about the whole predestinated thing. ( :) )

I find that verse fuzzy as to exactly what was "predestinated" :D But I don't have a problem with the idea that God chose who would be saved, and still holds us responsible for whether we receive Jesus. I don't try to reconcile them any more, I leave that to God.

dwashbur:

But I don't have a problem with the idea that God chose who would be saved, and still holds us responsible for whether we receive Jesus.

Please... define "receiving Jesus." I assume you mean to say it is different from "God having chosen who would be saved."

Tut,

you are an interesting person and your posts are smart and thought provoking. However, I read some stuff you wrote in a discussion thread on religion. You don't believe Jesus is the only way, or do I have that wrong? Just wondering.

Hi Tess,

As the thread you are referring to was in the area of religion in general I took the opportunity to speculate. I will need to take some time to come up with a reasonable explanation. Seeing as you are interested in what I think ( although I am not sure why) I will developed a reasoned argument some time soon.

Regards

Tut

dwashbur:


Please...define "receiving Jesus." I assume you mean to say it is different from "God having chosen who would be saved."

Romans 10:9-13.

Wondergirl:

Now, with the help of the Holy Spirit, Sally can work/make an effort to change her life and to do good things instead of bad ones. This is Sanctification, living a sanctified life.

In Exodus 31:13 God defines sanctification differently. He says unequivocally that it is He that sanctifies us. He does not add "with your cooperation."

Quoting HeadStrongBoy:dwashbur:Please... define "receiving Jesus." I assume you mean to say it is different from "God having chosen who would be saved." Romans 10:9-13.

Thanks for that response, and I am aware of that passage. There are others, especially in the New Testament, that appear to say equally clearly that personal salvation is dependent upon some action of ours. Whether it be confessing, believing, or being baptized, etc.

And those passages also appear to contradict the concept of God's complete autonomy in the work of salvation as expressed by passages like Ephesians 1:4. However there is a way to harmonize all of them. Other than the man-made construct of separating salvation into components like "justification" and "sanctification."

Thanks for that response, and I am aware of that passage. There are others, especially in the New Testament, that appear to say equally clearly that personal salvation is dependent upon some action of ours. Whether it be confessing, believing, or being baptized, etc.

And those passages also appear to contradict the concept of God's complete autonomy in the work of salvation as expressed by passages like Ephesians 1:4. However there is a way to harmonize all of them. Other than the man-made construct of separating salvation into components like "justification" and "sanctification."

As I already said, I don't worry about the apparent contradiction. It makes sense to God, and that's good enough for me. However, you say:

"there is a way to harmonize all of them."

And that way is..

dwashbur:

"there is a way to harmonize all of them." And that way is..

I was hoping you'd ask. But really it's nothing entirely new that you haven't heard before. From my perspective the biggest obstacle to harmonizing is to realize that our faith is work, based on scripture of course. I repeat: 1 Thessalonians 1:3, 2 Thessalonians 1:11, and others. That indicates all other Bible references to the faith of Abraham, for instance, must be interpreted to mean that the faith in question is something other than Abraham's own work. Since any work (faith) of our own cannot contribute to salvation (justification).

And in the case of Paul telling the jailer in Acts 16:31 to "Believe on the Lord..." the believing must mean that God Himself must first give the jailer the belief (a new heart). Then and only then could he believe in such away that is toward salvation.