I'd love to know why people think if your wiccan your going to hell, or that you're a sananist. From my experience (I was brought up christian) christian's look down upon the wiccan and or pagan religion's. Because it's not following ''god's'' will. Thus, were (wiccan's and or pagan's going to hell. It's so very rude to judge someone who believes differently. It's ignorant to also try to preach to them and convert them. Why do people do this? I personally hate it and wish I could beat people down for it. Make's me crazy. Wicca/pagan people do not have anything to do with satanism. There is what is called a left and right hand path. Light per say and dark. Neither path is evil. Satanism in a certain perspective is perfectly fine. It is wrong (to me) when a sanaist kills people or animals to sacrifice. But, it started as a ''selfinvolved'' religion. Meaning that focus was on self other then the world or other's. Wicca and pagan's are the other route. It's all about the world, nature, loving other's and life. Outward. So with all this said, how are people so blind and rasist and ignorant to those who are different. I'd love to see a person try to tell me I'm going to hell or that I'm evil. I would simply say, let me tell you what I believe. I worship the goddess-same as god. I am thankful for the world and try to care for it and the inhabitant's of it.

Not everybody does that. You talk about how Christians look down on Wiccan or pagan. Now the thing you need to realize is that Christians look down on other Christians as well. It happens with every race, every religion, every different group in society. Has judgements or opinions about each other in the same group and about others in other groups. I personally am interested in other persons belief. I would love you to tell me about about yours. At the same time you should be open to hear mine as well! I am not going to tell you, your going to hell, because that is not up to me. That is not my judgement to make, nor is it anybody else's. We all have our own experiances, opinions, thoughts, and we all have our own choices to believe in what we want to believe. There are a lot of things I feel strongly for and if it happens that something comes up I will speak up, and out. Especially if it is about harming another person, unborn baby , etc...
Anyway, Excellent post.

Joe

I will say this, not to start another long fight thread, but all Christians as part of their faith should or do believe unless you are a christain and unless you have Jesus as your Saviour, you are not going to heaven,

It is just the basic of Christian faith, the choice is Jesus and salvation or no Jesus and no salvation.

A Christian by the very beleifs they have, can not believe there is salvation in another faith.

And I will greatly disagree with what Wicca is, but she has the right to believe what she does and believe it means what she believes he means,
I have the right to believe it means something else.

I'll clear it all up by starting with, I'm not wholely a pagan/wiccan. I'm merely looking into the religion. However, I do clam to be one, so people can see that as my being one at heart. -If that makes any sense lol. I don't agree with the christian religon and some of what the bible says. I was brought up in a christian home went to first Assembaly of God all my life. But it was boring and just unfullfilling. I have a fiancé whom is of no religion. He brought up a lot of great questions, thus my beinging to question the bible and christianity as a whole. I have a friend whom is chatholic and we argue a lot (not yell an scream argue) about what is right and wrong. My moral's are the same as any one else's. So, the reason I used christianity as an example is because I was one, but I did also mean other religion's and or people. So I'm not calling anyone out. I could careless what people believe in. I'm not going to condeem them or anything. I just don't care for those who preach and or point a finger at other's whom religion is ''differnet''. Hate to say it, but what is different can instill a bit of fear or uncertainty in someone. Thus making people scared and for instance-in Salem, innocent people were killed because of being a witch or acting like one. First off, some of the test's for proving witchery was INSANE! And most of the condemmer's were catholic or prodistant christians. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but Jesus Christ does say '' Love thy neighbor'' ''Be a fisherman of men''. Uhh, killing those who are different or who appear to be evil no matter how you spin it is wrong. So this descrimanation and hate has been happening for ages. --Yes I get off topic a bit lol. So, what I'm saying is being different, (person with ton's of tatoo's) believing different,(wiccan's or hindu's) living different (gay couples) is scary and put's fear into really religious people or people in general. FEAR causes lot's of problems. Fear of the unknown. But, going back or w/e, I have a problem with christian's because of some of the thing's written in the bible and or the practice's of their daily lives. I will answer any questions, no fighting, no anger, no bashing or w/e. I would be glad to share what I believe and or think or dislike. Just ask if u'd like to know something. This is my favorite thing to debate lol.

I am not sure EXACTLY sure what I believe or what religion I'm classified under and I don't care. I believe that we all (life as a whole and the world) were created by a supreame being. ONE, god. Weither man or women. That we are to take care of this world and help other's, by showing love and kindness to all. That we should strive to better ourselves everyday. That someday we will go on to another place after death, and live in happiness their. Unless, we lived our live's as selfish and cruel. Hurt other's and did nothing to help our world. --I personally want to someday die knowing ''Hey I changed at least one thing in the world for the better''.

You have an excellent out look on life. I would love to have a friendly debate. I hope you do not judge me because I do know Jesus, I do know God. At the same time I have read bible back to front on my own. I was never pushed to believe a certain way. I have always felt a connection. I have always known God. There are times I see things in my own religion I do not agree with, but there are a lot of things I do agree with as well. I do believe that Gods spirit is within each and everyone of us, and he has written his plan in our hearts and minds and spirits. It is up to each of us to open up and to listen to it. The greatest gift in this life is to love. Loving one another. The example: Catholics and Protestants fighting with each other in other countries. About the salam and witches. I was not there. I am not guilty of hating anybody, or putting anybody to death so you can not say all Christians are bad. Just like I cannot say all wiccans are bad. Anyway I guess I tend to go off as well.

Looking forward to you asking me questions and you sharing your interests and thoughts.

Joe

My take on gods /goddesses is there may be a higher power but I do not believe he/she would want us to worship him/her/them.Christianity is the only religion that demands god worship I think.
The way I see it is you have children -- do you want them to worship you, or grow up, find their own way and move on?
I have read the Bible a few times and find many good thoughts and ways in it -- but also see some things it endorses that to me are immoral.

Sure add me if you like :-) I don't judge anyone, and what I've written isn't meant to judge. It's merely meant to enlighten. I too have read the bible. So if anyone has any question's regarding my faith or lack of w/e I can answer the best I can. Alos, I wasn't trying to pin everything on the christian's, however they seem to be less tolerant of other's from personal experience. When I have kid's I will tell them at a reasonable age what I believe in, but that there are many belief's and it's up to them to figure out there own path and forthat I will journey together with them to guide them. I may take them to different church's of different faith's. Just to show hwat's out there. They will have a choice. I never had that chocie.

That is what children should have. Is their own choice. Even though I was brought up Roman Catholic. I have been to baptist churches. Jehovah Witnesses. I have had experiances in others. Read up on many more. I have my own personal reference. I also do believe that many peoples beliefs stem from what they were taught as young. Their culture influence. Some people venture off into other different things, because they may see things they do not like but, not all of them are the same. For example: Even in the Catholic Church. You go visit 5 different Catholic churches and I guarantee that each individual church does things differently. Has different approaches to teaching etc... It is natural for the parents to want their children to believe the same. I am going to do my best to raise my son in a good church, but when he grows up and old enough to make his own choices I do not mind if he checks other things out. I remember, I said to my Grandfather that I was going to check a different church out. He got all frustrated and aggravated and said Roman Catholic religion has been in our family for 100's of years. He did not want to see me go to another denomination, which personally I think is silly.

Joe

I'll be honest with you, I'm just scared of witches. My first wife was one.

Lol... Yeah I have looked in to a lot of different religion's and learned about them either in school or at home. One of the main question's I was ask/answer here was about if satanism is really worshiping satan and if it's evil as many think. Thus, also making them think wicca/paganism is evil. When in fact satanism is origanally a branch off paganism. Origanally, satanism was just a more self involved form of paganism, which I explained earlier. They didn't worship satan and kill inoccent's. Such is the belief of (personally) ignorant people. Today there are many branches of paganism, but the root's are outward, loving and caring people. Some people are extreamist's and will be that 5% of the pagan/santanic's who worship satan and or make scarifices. Making other religion's see that and think ''oh well they all must be evil!''... this is the problem I want to solve in the world. Also, the fact that many of the christian's I know are inntollerant of other's. AND I say many of whom I know! See, I may serve the same god they do, you never know. No one know's my heart except god. I just serve him in a different way. --As I've said I'm not sure exactly what I believe, still searching.

I just don't care for those who preach and or point a finger at other's whom religion is ''differnet''. Hate to say it, but what is different can instill a bit of fear or uncertainty in someone.

So, what im saying is being different, (person with ton's of tatoo's) believing different,(wiccan's or hindu's) living different (gay couples) is scary and put's fear into really religious ppl or ppl in general. FEAR causes lot's of problems. Fear of the unknown.
I think you put your finger on half of the problem here. Fear of the unknown and the different is a big part of it.

The other part is a desire to feel special, superior, chosen, in other words, spiritual pride. Fear and foolish pride explains most of the prejudice and intolerance in the world, whether it's religious, racial, nationalistic, or just schoolyard bullies.

Look, I've been wiccan for 2-3 years and believe me, I've dealt with my share of predjudice. The answer to your question is human nature. It's human nature to fear what you don't understand. And since no one likes to be afraid the fear becomes hate. I was raised catholic and now my father barely talks to me because of Wicca. Because he refuses to listen to my explanations. He's dead set on believing I'm going to Hell. But what I find very ironic is that the two religios worship the same God. The Christian religion is just to narrow minded to allow for a God-dess. No offense to any Catholics. I'[m not saying you're all narrow minded, just your religion.

No I am sorry many of us do know about wiccan and many of their beliefs, and have helped many of others coming away from it.

But no they do not worship a christian god by any means, and it is not being narrow minded it is just the truth of what the differnece is.

Wicca is not christian, Muslim is not christian, Buddhist is not christian, Christian is christian and they worship different gods.

If a wicca wants to pretend they are christian and believe in their god, they can but it merely shows they don't know their own faith.

Personally, I don't agree that we all worship the same god. Jesus Christ is a very different person then the Goddess, considering she is a women. All religion's DO believe in different god's. Aka different people that they consider worthy of worship. To deny this simple fact is to deny that the world spins on an axis. Christian's need to stop ''preaching'' I'm sick of being told that ''were christian, if you don't follow god then your not going to heaven''. First off, every religion believes that their own IS the RIGHT way and the true way. That is FACT! Fact is when something 100% truth and cannot be otherwise. Look it up in the dictionary. The FACT is EVERY religion worships different gods. What we DO have in common, is that we DO believe in A GOD. We just worship differently. So why can't we all just get along and stop trying to think like Hitler. Hitler thought that German's WERE the perfect race. Christian's think that they're the only true religion. Can't you see? EVERY religion thinks that they're there own true religion. The agreement should be that everyone, has a religion, even beliving in nothing is a religion. So, one day my hope is that the world will be of the same common belief and mindset. That the world will stop fighting over who's god is better. All I know, is that it is not right for anyone to judge or damn someone because of religion. Wicca does not pretend to be anything. That's a statement that thousands of wiccans of any sect would find rude and rasist. Wicca's VERY much know they're faith. I have friend's that are wicca and I've met other's that are too, they ALL know VERY well what they believe. And no, NO christian truly know's what wicca is. You woln't until you talk to someone who follow's the true wicca way. Not some currupted evil person who sacrifices lambs and crap. Wicca is about love, rebirth, and peace. As a x-christian, I'm ashamed to call myself x-christian. It's one of the most rasist and intolerable religions.

You don't have to be Christian to be intolerant of other religions. I know many many very gracious and humble Christians. One does have to be religious however to be like this since those who are of no religion don't have a personal religion to "defend." Some faiths may have more followers like this than others. I have yet to meet a Buddhist who does this, for example. But I don't think any one faith needs to be condemned for it. I tend to think any faith that propagates this is simply mistaken. When I have investigated it, I found its usually not the actual faith but the person's interpretation of it that is flawed. Fortunately, I see evidence that religious tolerance is a growing worldwide movement. That is very good!

I think minority religions all take something of a hit, kind of like that oddball kid in class is the target of some crappy stuff. You only need look here (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/other-religion/voodoo-45551.html#post221772) to see Voodoo almost getting clobbered the same way. I sometimes see lots of misunderstanding about Jehovah Witnesses too.

All prejudice is terrible and all prejudice born out of and fueled by ignorance. That's the real enemy to humanity and if I believed there really is a satan (but I do not LOL) I would acknowlege that as his greatest weapon.

I used to not believe in the devil but then I found out that that is the greatest trick satan wants to accomplish. Now I am a middle-aged Christian, and wished for a little while that I could have done without all the crap if I had only believed in Christ instead of myself!

I don't think it's appropriate to say " well, I think you're going to hell bc you aren't a Christian!" This is not for us to exclaim! God is the ultimate judge of someone's soul.
However, I can say that I do not believe that without Christ one will see heaven.

You mention an important fact- that all faiths think their God is the best. Knowledge is power here, and since God spoke and showed miracles to Moses and many of the Old Testament righteous, with written proof in the Dead Sea Scrolls- then this is the one and ONLY God!
Now, you say, don't stop there, but consider who believes in the God of Abraham. Christians, Jews, and Muslims. So, since I question Islam(not the person individually) and it's culture- I consider the Jewish religion. Very close to salvation but I see the fulfillment of the O.T. laws made free through the grace given in Jesus Christ. Of course there were miracles and witnesses and records( the resurrection being the most important )

There are no other true faiths- the rest are about the book the leader of the false religion or cult created.
I'm sorry, but your father is right, he just admonishes you roughly about it- but one thing is for sure- he knows what is RIGHT!

Retrotia, your making no sense, in your comment you said a few things that said together, are hypocritical. First,
{"I don't think it's appropriate to say " well, I think you're going to hell because you aren't a Christian!" This is not for us to exclaim! God is the ultimate judge of someone's soul."} BUT then you said {"There are no other true faiths- the rest are about the book the leader of the false religion or cult created."} That's a judgement right there. Those two staement's together in your post make your post hypocrittical. Just because some books say that God of Abraham is the ONE true god, DOES not mean that HE is. So what your saying basically is, if a person thousands of years ago wrote something like I AM God, then that must mean he's God? Wow, so if I say I'm an alien from Zoltar then it must be true too? Just because a book says something in it, FACT is it doesn't mean it's true. And of course as a christian, you would think that all other religions are false. That's what your supposed to believe as a christian. Look, I was rasied as a christian for 18 years, so I know what is in the bible OK? But the fact is that I am not gulable and intollerant of others beliefs. That is why christians need to look at there reliogion and really think, ''its this right?'' NO its not. It's not right to judge other's as you said, but as you also just did~hypocritically. It's not right to assume you're the master religion. Just like Hitler wasn't right assuming German's were the master race. It's not right to put thoughts in your head that make you treat other's of other religion's differently. It's not right to be rasist of other's religion's and that's what you few christian's are doing. ~Not everyone mind you.~ But ultimatly, that is what your doing, being rasist. By not tolerating other's. You can say your tolerant until your blue in the face, but honestly, as a person as people, are you what you say you are? Are you loving and friendly as you should be to all people? I think not. We all make mistakes. Personally, the biggest one I think many religious people make is being rasist without really knowing it. To deny a friendship with a jew, Buddhist or wiccan. To try to ''convert'' them from their ways. I say converting is wrong. It's because of fear, because of the feeling of superiority, that makes one want to ''convert'' someone. Realisicly, we need to grow up. Every faith is true to themselves, that's FACT! So to deny it is denying that we need air to breathe.

He is not my father, take note that he is a member as you and just posts things. He's not my father. That's insulting. First of all, I have never understood why its called that. Makes no sense to me. But in the future you should choose your words wisely and know what your talking about rather then making no sense.

~Meg

My mother is a Seventh Day Adventist. She only eats kosher foods. It's not like she thinks that someone else who eats a bite of bacan is burning in hell. Thankfully, she's not one of THOSE types of christians.

What's funny about christians is what they believe half the time means jack. My bf's ex (the one that recently had he's baby out of wed lock) and I used to go to the same church. No one pointed a finger at her when she got knocked up. But they practucally stoned me when I started seeing Jon 7 months later.

From what I can see, usually the ones that say things like that to you, or treat you poorly are doing it so that maybe people will look at your "sin" rather than their own that they're hiding. And in my personaly opinoin are probably going to be sitting in the hot seat far before you will.

I'd love to know why ppl think if your wiccan your going to hell, or that your a sananist. From my experiance (i was brought up christian) christian's look down upon the wiccan and or pagan religion's. Because it's not following ''god's'' will. Thus, were (wiccan's and or pagan's going to hell. It's so very rude to judge someone who believes differently. It's ignorant to also try to preach to them and convert them. Why do ppl do this? I personally hate it and wish i could beat ppl down for it. Make's me crazy. Wicca/pagan ppl do not have anything to do with satanism. There is what is called a left and right hand path. Light per say and dark. Neither path is evil. Satanism in a certain perspective is perfectly fine. It is wrong (to me) when a sanaist kills ppl or animals to sacrifice. But, it started out as a ''selfinvolved'' religion. Meaning that focus was on self other then the world or other's. Wicca and pagan's are the other route. It's all about the world, nature, loving other's and life. Outward. So with all this said, how are ppl so blind and rasist and ignorant to those who are different. I'd love to see a person try to tell me i'm going to hell or that i'm evil. I would simply say, let me tell you what i believe. I worship the goddess-same as god. I am thankful for the world and try to care for it and the inhabitant's of it.
Well from a Christian's point of view. There are many gods out there, allah, baal etc... but only ONE Jehovah/Yahweh. "the goddess" is not the same as Yahweh. Yahweh is the God of the Bible. In believing in hell/heaven. That is biblical, how can anyone believe in heaven or hell w/o believing in God *Yahweh*? ANYTHING that is NOT of Yahweh (and He specifically detests and condemns witchcraft) is of the only other source out there... Satan. The deeper you get into witchcraft, the more it becomes the early stages of satanism. The evironment: air, water... is all created BY YAHWEH. God did not create any other gods to rule them. He created man to have dominion and rule *for a short time* of earth. My main point... the reason people say that witches are going to hell, is because anything other than worshiping Yahweh is seen through His eyes as turning against Him and siding with His enemy... Lucifer. And Lucifer, the known "god" of satanism is supposedly the brother of Diana... your goddess. Who Diana takes on the form of a black cat to engage in incest with. So, if you're not a christian, if you don't believe in God *Yahweh* then why would you believe in hell? And if you don't believe in hell... what are you so worried about? And why does it bother you that people tell you you're going there?

It bothers me, I feel because its not fair to judge people or condem them yourself. I don't know, I'm not sure of anything anymore. I'm tired of life, tired of crying, tired of everything. I clearly don't have a pourpose. And wow, today is my B-day, but who cares its just another day.

You're right. God is the ultimate judge. And I'm not judging you, I'm just coming to the black and white conclusion that's in the bible that whatever is not of God is of the devil. Ya know, I don't agree with wicca, witchcraft or satanism *or any other religion for that matter* but I just encourage you that in whatever religion you choose... get to know all the details and implications of it, so you'll be knowledgeable before you get into something that isn't what you thought. I am a Christian, because I know that although my religion is about serving God and others, my spirituality and religion is about my GOD having a relationship with me too! The God whom I believe created EVERYTHING on earth *in the perfect condition, before it was perverted and cursed*, who took/takes the time to pay attention to EVERY detail in our bodies, the pores on our skin, the flecks of color in our eyes and who can take away life on earth in with one thought, chooses to interact with His creation and he wants an intimate relationship with them. And knowing that He loved me enough to send His only son to die for me so I could be saved eternally, it makes me cry. That's the greatest love, for someone to give up their life for someone else, and that's what Christianity is about. Now, Christians do a sucky job of portraying Christ a lot of times... *I do as well* but I comes down to love... that's what its all about. If everyone showed the same kind of love and service to everyone else like Christ showed us... this world would be the greatest place.

But, please don't lose heart. You HAVE PURPOSE! Even if you don't think so... you have a purpose in Christ. You are so special and meaningful, and if you'd get to know Him and give Him a chance... He'd show you just how much. I don't know if you're one for reading... but the book that changed my life... "A Purpose Driven Life" by Rick Warren. I promise you... *GUARANTEED* if you'll read the whole book... you'll find that you have a purpose and you'll find what it is. If you need anything... holler! Happy Birthday!!

PS-The only reason why I'm so passionately anti-wicca is because my dad was involved... he has researched it for years and researched the connections between wicc/witchcraft and satanism. I've met plenty of witches. Thank God his faith is so strong in God, or other wise he admits he'd be a follower of this religion. I've grown up my whole life around it.

It's fine, I'm not exactly wicca anyway. I'm not anything. I just used it as an example. I was made to go to church for 18 years. Now I'm just finding my way. I don't really care anymore though. I mean, I'm tired of feeling like a piece of crap. But that's for another post that no one wants to hear.

I'd love to know why ppl think if your wiccan your going to hell, or that your a sananist. From my experiance (i was brought up christian) christian's look down upon the wiccan and or pagan religion's. Because it's not following ''god's'' will. Thus, were (wiccan's and or pagan's going to hell. It's so very rude to judge someone who believes differently. It's ignorant to also try to preach to them and convert them. Why do ppl do this? I personally hate it and wish i could beat ppl down for it. Make's me crazy. Wicca/pagan ppl do not have anything to do with satanism. There is what is called a left and right hand path. Light per say and dark. Neither path is evil. Satanism in a certain perspective is perfectly fine. It is wrong (to me) when a sanaist kills ppl or animals to sacrifice. But, it started out as a ''selfinvolved'' religion. Meaning that focus was on self other then the world or other's. Wicca and pagan's are the other route. It's all about the world, nature, loving other's and life. Outward. So with all this said, how are ppl so blind and rasist and ignorant to those who are different. I'd love to see a person try to tell me i'm going to hell or that i'm evil. I would simply say, let me tell you what i believe. I worship the goddess-same as god. I am thankful for the world and try to care for it and the inhabitant's of it.
There is only ONE TRUE AND LIVING GOD. We are to worship HIM in Spirit and in Truth.
The Bible is the final authority. That's all there is to it.
Finally, we are NOT to worship "a goddess"
The only thing that brings confusion is Satan. The Bible declares that he is the AUTHOR OF CONFUSION!
Please let me encourage you to get back to the Bible; God's Holy Word. That is the only place you will find real truth, peace, contentment, and ETERNAL LIFE.
God Bless You.

Not everyone believe's in god, not everyone want's to follow that path. You are a rude, anoying person. You give christians a bad name. Everything you say is YOUR craked opinion. If you didn't want me to comment on the offensive, then don't make stupid comment's. Your no christian, I was one all my life B/C OF FORCE. Now I can follow my own path, and perhaps refind Jesus in my own time. Til then I don't need anyone bringing me down. God is pround that I am trying to find myself. Trying to love him on my own free will. You are the type who need's to get a life other then religion. Because let me tell you your missing out on life by going around wasting time preaching to the lost who have not will to change or to those who know of what you speack and block out your anoying voice due to frusteratiuon of hearing it. You really know how to p I s s someone off. If you give me or anyone anymore lame, rude, offensive comment's I'm ignoring you. I'll pray that you find god in truth and that he will teach you to be a true fisherman of god. And seeing how your rep is bad, no one wants to hear your crap.

Yea, I know what conviction is and what I'm feeling isn't conviction. ONLY the lord Jesus Christ convict's us of our wrongs. No mortal. I am offended by your comment's, I disagree with the method you are using to show people to Jesus. Jesus, didn't force people to sercome to his will, he loved them, guided them, and taught them at their speed. I've read and studied the bible over the course of 18 years. I'm proud to say I graduated Missionette's, a 4 yr girl's group to become closer to the will of God. I may no longer be a church go-er, but I still believe in one god, who created the heavens. I refuse to be a luke warm christian like my mother. Going to church and pretending to love God and everyone else. Then going home and being a mean cruel person. If I am to be a fisherman of men, I will do it to the best of my ability, when I am clensed of my sins and made new. Til I find my way again I will remain nothing. If I am to lose the most important person (my fiance) in my life due to the will of God, I can't accept that. So now you know a bit more of where I come. I had a calling on my life to be a missionary. Perhaps one day I will be, but until I can love God with my WHOLE heart I will not. My church and grandmother where proud of my choice to put myself out of the church to on day re-join. I REFUSE to be a hypocrite, lukewarm or anything God dislikes once I am a true christian. But, as I said I am finding myself. One thing will always remain, my believe and respect for the one true God who made the world and myself in his image.

I stand very humbly corrected by you, and ask you to forgive me. I mis-read your writings. That is my fault. I have asked the Lord to forgive me, and hope you will to.
God bless you. I will be praying for God's Will in your life.
Very respectfully,
Poppa

Poppa, my writtings were merely to see why people assume other religion's other then there own is that of the work of the devil. I personally worship or will worship differantly then other's. All that truly matter's is what is in the heart. I personally believe that wicca, the true wicca are following everything the right way, except the fact that they think their god is a women. And they don't believe in the death of Jeus to save our sins. If it weren't for that fact they would be the one group of people following the religion the way everyone should. BUT of course they're not, so yes they aren't going to heaven. BUT I'm trying to just make people stop thinking their religion is the master one, that their god is the only one. That's what other religion's think to. What good is this doing? It's certainly NOT bringing anyone to God. It's pushing them further and further away. I may not read the bible, go to church or pray or even follow everything god says. BUT I do believe that he is real, and I do believe if I don't someday go back to him I will burn in hell. Someday I have faith that I will be able to return to God, but not at this time. And trust me, I have the fear of God inside me. He may be an awesome God, loving and caring and forgiving. BUT he is also one of wrath.

I'm agnostic I definitely don't believe in a christian god, and the religion, if I ever decided to follow one, that makes the most sense to me is wicca or a form of paganism. My flat mate is christian and keeps telling me I'm going to hell, rather unchristian if you ask me. Don't get me wrong she is not being spiteful I love her to bits but what gets me is who are the christians on earth to decide who does and does not get into hevean! You are not god/goddess/flying spaghetti monster. I don't like being preached at I like making informed decisions based on my own understanding of the world. And no one yet has come to me with a convincing argument the path I should follow is that of god. I'm not saying he's not real, I'm just pointing out my P.O.V.
Lol I was more open to the whole god idea BEFORE I moved in with a christian though :)

I'm agnostic i definatly don't believe in a christian god, and the religion, if i ever decided to follow one, that makes the most sense to me is wicca or a form of paganism. my flat mate is christian and keeps telling me i'm going to hell, rather unchristian if you ask me. Don't get me wrong she is not being spiteful i love her to bits but what gets me is who are the christians on earth to decide who does and does not get into hevean! you are not god/goddess/flying spaghetti monster. i don't like being preached at i like making informed decisions based on my own understanding of the world. and noone yet has come to me with a convincing arguement the the path i should follow is that of god. i'm not saying he's not real, i'm just pointin out my P.O.V.
lol i was more open to the whole god idea BEFORE i moved in with a christian though :)
Here is another point of view to consider: If there is no God, then there is no heaven or hell either, and the Bible is nothing but a pack of lies. So if you don't believe in God, you have nothing to concern yourself with... EXCEPT......what if you're wrong? What if there is God, and He is the Author of the Bible, and there really is a heaven and hell? Then we have a completely different set of circumstances to consider, because if it is true (and of course it is.....) then...we will be j
Judged by the very words we say we don't believe in.
I am not preaching to you, nor will I try to change your mind. I will only say that one of us is wrong. If I am wrong, then no sweat. IF, HOWEVER, you are wrong, you are in a heap of trouble young man.
I will be praying for you.

Ah but poppa I didn't say I didn't believe in god. I'm agnostic I don't not believe in god, I just don't like the way christianity "mourns its religion" to quote a popular film. I'm very open to the idea that god exists but christians make me not want to be christian (not all christians, I have several friends training to be ministers and I understand and respect their views) I don't however respect the points of views of people who tell me I'm going to hell because I'm open to suggestion. The thing that annoys me is that I don't down right tell people that they are wrong and that evolution is a definite process (which I believe it is) I listen I understand and I agree to disagree. The extreme christians that I know basically look at me in a very patronising way and say that I'm wrong, what I don't understand is why can't they just agree that either one of us could be right about it? Because no one alive can prove either way.

I would believe in an omnipresent god who judged you on who you were rather than what you believe, I think its rather spiteful not to.

Ok my question is poppa do you believe in dinosaurs? Where they in the bible? I've read the bible and they weren't in the one I read lol. So that must mean there is no such thing as a dinosaur... wrong. There is proof that dino's walked the earth and that they evolved into bigger and more dangerous beasts. The world split into two different continents and the dino's on each had to addapt to there new environment. Same as the cave men. They had to addapt. There is so much proof of these things that just because it may go against your religion oh well. In my opinion your religion is wrong then. You can't deny fact. Point is evolution is real. Our bodies change every hundred year or so. Just take a look at the proof.
On another note, you say ''one of us is wrong''. Well what if you're the one who is wrong poppa? Then you've wasted life believing and worshiping a nonesistant god. Dc4 if you were wrong, who cares, you've lived life without service to a god, you wasted nothing. Poppa I've gotten a feel of what people are like on this site. Who they are. I can't tell who you are though. All your words are bible this bible that. God this god that. You need to learn that sure you can be a christian, but you need to have an identity also. You're a thumper that's all. What do you think about life, what do you like, what's your goals? My goodness you don't even act like you have self. You act like you're the voice of god. You need to have a healthy balance of religion and independence. Jesus didn't talk about religion and qoute the bible 100% all the time. He tried to relate to people and to talk to them as man to man friend to friend. Maybe if you'd lighten up a bit and realize not all people will be saved, let the fact that you are and that you've tried confort you. I'm not going to live life wondering if god is going to dislike me if I do this or that. What kind of messed up life is that. You have the right to make good and bad choices, to enjoy life. I fail to see how any christian who is like my gram actually enjoys life. Crazy. My gram thinks I shouldn't be with my fiancé because he's not christian. Who cares? You love who you love. So if your married to someone god doesn't like your stuck being sad for it? My gram thinks that sex should be after marriage. Nah, if you do it out of love then I say do it. Gram says that if you have friends who aren't christian you shouldn't be there friend. No I say befriend everyone. Gram gets in everyone's business and tells them weither or not they are going to hell, weither or not they are living right and buggs them until you want to kill her. I say stfu and let people alone. If you want to be a thumper you don't deserve me as a friend. Trust me your missing out too because I'm a cool person. Stop thinking your superior and that we are lost puppies. Dc4 are you lost? Nope, me neither. I'll stick up for myself. I perosnally think anyone who thinks like my gram is a moron and needs to be spanked. Maybe what religions need is to be treated as we are. Sometime's maybe even tormented. Like we are. You think you know your gods, ha please. They know you, you don't know them. I'm sick of being judged, sick of being mocked, sick of being tormented by people who think they are god. Spare us the pity, spare us the words we don't listen. We've grown numb to the sound of your voice. Numb to your pain. If you want to be a fisherman of man, learn more about Jesus. At this point I feel like I could be a better fisherman. At least I don't lack conversational skills and personality. Kindness, love, conpassion. Bull, if you think you have it.

I'm addressing whomever thinks I'm addressing them. Free country free voice of opinion. Don't like it fine, but I say what I feel and I speak for many who don't speak up or are too chicken. I've gotten this far in life and I think I'm a good person. FU to whomever thinks differently. I will offend if need be. Were offended everyday. It's time we had a voice and speak up.

Ok my question is poppa do u believe in dinosaurs? Where they in the bible? I've read the bible and they weren't in the one i read lol. So that must mean there is no such thing as a dinosaur.....wrong. There is proof that dino's walked the earth and that they evolved into bigger and more dangerous beasts. The world split into two different continents and the dino's on each had to addapt to there new environment. Same as the cave men. They had to addapt. There is so much proof of these things that just because it may go against your religion oh well. In my opinion your religion is wrong then. You can't deny fact. Point is evolution is real. Our bodies change every hundred year or so. Just take a look at the proof.
On another note, you say ''one of us is wrong''. Well what if your the one who is wrong poppa? Then you've wasted life believing and worshiping a nonesistant god. Dc4 if you were wrong, who cares, you've lived life without service to a god, you wasted nothing. Poppa i've gotten a feel of what ppl are like on this site. Who they are. I can't tell who you are though. All your words are bible this bible that. God this god that. You need to learn that sure you can be a christian, but you need to have an identity also. Your a thumper thats all. What do you think about life, what do you like, what's your goals? My goodness you don't even act like you have self. You act like your the voice of god. You need to have a healthy balence of religion and independance. Jesus didn't talk about religion and qoute the bible 100% all the time. He tried to relate to ppl and to talk to them as man to man friend to friend. Maybe if you'd lighten up a bit and realize not all ppl will be saved, let the fact that you are and that you've tried confort you. I'm not going to live life wondering if god is going to dislike me if i do this or that. What kind of messed up life is that. You have the right to make good and bad choices, to enjoy life. I fail to see how any christian who is like my gram actually enjoys life. Crazy. My gram thinks i shouldnt be with my fiance b/c he's not christian. Who cares? You love who you love. So if your married to someone god doesnt like your stuck being sad for it? My gram thinks that sex should be after marriage. Nah, if you do it out of love then i say do it. Gram says that if you have friends who aren't christian you shouldnt be there friend. No i say befriend everyone. Gram gets in everyone's business and tells them weither or not they are going to hell, weither or not they are living right and buggs them til you want to kill her. I say stfu and let ppl alone. If you want to be a thumper you dont deserve me as a friend. Trust me your missing out too because im a cool person. Stop thinking your superior and that we are lost puppies. Dc4 are you lost? Nope, me neither. I'll stick up for myself. I perosnally think anyone who thinks like my gram is a moron and needs to be spanked. Maybe what religions need is to be treated as we are. Sometime's maybe even tormented. Like we are. You think you know your gods, ha please. They know you, you don't know them. I'm sick of being judged, sick of being mocked, sick of being tormented by ppl who think they are god. Spare us the pity, spare us the words we don't listen. We've grown numb to the sound of your voice. Numb to your pain. If you want to be a fisherman of man, learn more about Jesus. At this point i feel like i could be a better fisherman. At least i dont lack conversational skills and personality. Kindness, love, conpassion. Bull, if u think you have it.

I'm addressing whomever thinks im addressing them. Free country free voice of opinion. Dont like it fine, but i say what i feel and i speak for many who don't speak up or are too chicken. I've gotten this far in life and i think im a good person. FU to whomever thinks differently. I will offend if need be. Were offended everyday. It's time we had a voice and speak up.
I pray you will mature enough to realize just how immature you are. It's sad and very scary. You think you have it all figured out, don't you? Write me back in about 30 years and you'll have a different point of view, rather than the rebellious one you have now. I am praying for you.
THE BIBLE IS THE ABSOLUTE FINAL AUTHORITY. WHAT YOU OR ME THINK ABOUT WHAT IS SAYS DOESN'T CHANGE IT A BIT. I CHOOSE TO ACCEPT IT, BELIEVE, AND AM DOING MY BEST TO LIVE IT. YOUR DISAGREEMENT WITH THAT DOESN'T CHANGE IT. GODS WAYS ARE NOT MAN'S WAYS. THE SOONER PEOPLE ACCEPT THAT, THE SOONER THEY WILL BA ABLE TO GET ALONG IN THIS LIFE.
WHEN I QUOTE THE SCRIPTURES, IT'S BECAUSE THEY ARE A PART OF ME. I LOVE THE WORD OF GOD. REMEMBER THAT I DIDN'T WRITE THEM, I JUST QUOTE THEM. DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER.
IF THAT SOUNDS HARD, THEN SO BE IT. THE BIBLE DOESN'T "PLAY FAVORITES" OR "TAKE SIDES". IT IS THE WORD OF GOD, AND MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO APOLOGY FOR THAT. THE BIBLE EVEN TELLS US THAT "PEOPLE WILL NOT ENDURE SOUND DOCTRINE".
As for your "Gram", it sounds like she's only to point you in the Bible way.. how can you fault her for that? If she didn't love you, she wouldn't put herself in that position to start with. The Bible says that if we fail to warn people, and they go to hell; then their blood will be on our hands, BUT if we do our part to warn them and they die in their sins, their blood will not be on our hands.
From your writings, it is apparent that you are in fact rebellious. Am I condemning you for that? NO! I love you because you too were created by God, and He wants all of us to be happy. If you find fault with me for that... then I'm truly sorry for you, but never sorry for quoting the Word of God. God bless you.

I pray you will mature enough to realize just how immature you are. It's sad and very scary. You think you have it all figured out, don't you? Write me back in about 30 years and you'll have a different point of view, rather than the rebellious one you have now. I am praying for you.
THE BIBLE IS THE ABSOLUTE FINAL AUTHORITY. WHAT YOU OR ME THINK ABOUT WHAT IS SAYS DOESN'T CHANGE IT A BIT. I CHOOSE TO ACCEPT IT, BELIEVE, AND AM DOING MY BEST TO LIVE IT. YOUR DISAGREEMENT WITH THAT DOESN'T CHANGE IT. GODS WAYS ARE NOT MAN'S WAYS. THE SOONER PEOPLE ACCEPT THAT, THE SOONER THEY WILL BA ABLE TO GET ALONG IN THIS LIFE.
WHEN I QUOTE THE SCRIPTURES, IT'S BECAUSE THEY ARE A PART OF ME. I LOVE THE WORD OF GOD. REMEMBER THAT I DIDN'T WRITE THEM, I JUST QUOTE THEM. DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER.
IF THAT SOUNDS HARD, THEN SO BE IT. THE BIBLE DOESN'T "PLAY FAVORITES" OR "TAKE SIDES". IT IS THE WORD OF GOD, AND MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO APOLOGY FOR THAT. THE BIBLE EVEN TELLS US THAT "PEOPLE WILL NOT ENDURE SOUND DOCTRINE".
As for your "Gram", it sounds like she's only to point you in the Bible way...,how can you fault her for that? If she didn't love you, she wouldn't put herself in that position to start with. The Bible says that if we fail to warn people, and they go to hell; then their blood will be on our hands, BUT if we do our part to warn them and they die in their sins, their blood will not be on our hands.
From your writings, it is apparent that you are in fact rebellious. Am I condemning you for that?? NO! I love you because you too were created by God, and He wants all of us to be happy. If you find fault with me for that......then I'm truly sorry for you, but never sorry for quoting the Word of God. God bless you.
by the way... you must have skjipped over the scripture about the dino's. It's IN THERE!

I'm going to go on the assumption that poppa thinks I'm a misinformed teenager and a boy, which I'm not (I'm not even a teenager). The bible was written by man not god. It may be gods words but it is still man's interperatation of those words, therefore it is fallible. I studied evolutionary biology and I took a church youth group as the youth leader so I have seen things from both sides.

The bible tries makes things black and white but it is full of contradictions, some christians take the word of only christ ignoring all before him, the old testament, but other pick at what they believe and what they don't. God said an eye for an eye, jesus said forgiveness, OK most christians go for new over old there, but what about only eating fish on a Friday, or not eating shellfish these things are just impractical nowadays.

I believe in being a good person and treating others as I would like them to treat me and I go out of my way to be a good person, if god (if he exists) doesn't let me in to "hevean" then so be it. At least I know I'll be on the opposite side of the fence from Hitler who did accept jesus as his lord and saviour but did one or two bad things in his life! :)

I'm going to go on the assumption that poppa thinks i'm a misinformed teenager and a boy, which i'm not (I'm not even a teenager). The bible was written by man not god. it may be gods words but it is still man's interperatation of those words, therefore it is fallible. i studied evolutionary biology and i took a church youth group as the youth leader so i have seen things from both sides.

the bible tries makes things black and white but it is full of contradictions, some christians take the word of only christ ignoring all before him, the old testament, but other pick and choose at what they believe and what they don't. god said an eye for an eye, jesus said forgiveness, ok most christians go for new over old there, but what about only eating fish on a friday, or not eating shellfish these things are just impractical nowadays.

I believe in being a good person and treating others as i would like them to treat me and i go out of my way to be a good person, if god (if he exists) doesn't let me in to "hevean" then so be it. at least i know i'll be on the opposite side of the fence from Hitler who did accept jesus as his lord and saviour but did one or two bad things in his life! :)

First, I assume nothing about you. The only insight I have was given by your own words, not mine.Secondly, the Bible says it was not written by any man's private intpretation, but by the Holy Ghost. The Bible is therefore completely infallible. The problems start when men interpret the Scriptures "with their own spin" on things. Your very limited studies certainly don't make you an expert if you've already started incorrectly.Thirdly,the Bible does NOT say anything about eating or not eating fish on Fridays. These concepts come from man's religious ideas (the Roman Catholic church to be exact. They are not the authority either. Fourthly, you are confused about the Old and New Testament. Fifthly, as to you being a good person. That's wonderful that you are trying to be a good person, however, Jesus died for the sins of the world. The Bible clearly tells us that "there is none righteous, no not one." If "good intentions" would get us to heaven, then what did Jesus die for? Next, if you don't make it to heaven, it won't be because God doesn't let you in... it will be because of your decision to NOT believe the Bible and obey the Scriptures. Next, where in the world did you get the impression that Hitler was saved? Saved people don't exterminate millions of people. A careful study of his own words prove that he did far more evil and harm to mankind than "one or two bad things in his life" (your words, not mine.
I hope you find the truth. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. God bless you.

I believe in being a good person and treating others as i would like them to treat me and i go out of my way to be a good person, if god (if he exists) doesn't let me in to "hevean" then so be it. at least i know i'll be on the opposite side of the fence from Hitler who did accept jesus as his lord and saviour but did one or two bad things in his life! :)

I'm sorry I just had to interject. Hitler is in Hell. He went to Catholic school & he was part Jewish. He was a distant descendant of Esau.God promised to be at war with Esau & Amalek forever, until their remembrance was stricken from under heaven(see Exodus 17:8-16)
God said, Jacob I have loved , but Esau I have hated(Romans 9:13) (Malachi 1:2-3)
Did 1 0r 2 things bad? Try 6 million! I just don't see your reasoning. Anti-semitism is a sin, & will be judged in the time of "the judgment of nations."
The Judgment of the Living Nations. At the end of the Tribulation Period, after Israel has been judged, the nations of earth will be judged by Christ and His Church. This judgment will not be against individuals but against nations for their treatment of the Jewish people.

First of all, I am offended to be called immature. I proved you wrong before and as I recall you even said that you agreed that you were wrong, so once again you'll need to realized once again your wrong. I'm 21. I've been through more crap then a lot of people have. I've learned life lessons the hard way. I don't have the answers to everything. There are many things that I would like to still learn, but when I know something that is fact, its fact weither you like it or not. I voice my opinion weither you like it or not. I'm strong enough to not let you or any other religious fanatic try to fear me into a bogus religion. If this is what you want to show people about your religion, then don't expect people to convert anytime soon. You have a lot of things wrong. I was a christian for 18 years, I know the bible very well so when you try to qoute faulse or exaturated things I'm going to laugh in your face and say wrong! At least know of what you speak, and at least follow your own religion the currect way. Would Jesus like the way you or any of you are acting? No, he'd be ashamed. You force people to feel bad, force people to conform and force people to feel weak. I'm not weak, I'm not a subject to be toyed with, I'm not a slave and I most certainly am not going to be a product of insanity. So.. I'm more mature then you are. You want to fling the bible around and act like your high and mighty. Your just upset because I rocked the foundations of what you think, you don't want to listen to reason or reality. You'd rather live in the dark rather then free yourslef and live in the light. Get off your throne. You qoute false words, I've read the bible and you twist it Retrotia and Poppa. In my opinion you need help because it seems a few screws are lose. Don't try to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I think that your seriously in need of a reality check. No one care's what you say because in the end we will believe what we believe. You thought I didn't know the bbile? Well I can fling it better then you if I need to.

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity

Firstly "one or two bad things" was meant to be sarcastic! I most definitely don't agree with anything hitler did! And I'm fully aware that he was probably one of the most evil men in history, right up there with Stalin. I'm sorry if it was misinterpreted.

But Hitler did do those things and did believe in God and that Jesus died for his sins. My interpretation of your previous words was that as long as you accept god and jesus you would go to heaven and your sins forgiven. I was just pointing out that, that probably wasn't the only way to get in or out. Nothing meant personally I really do hope Hitler is in hell if there is one.

Retoria, one thing that confuses me, and I don't claim to be an expert, and my knowledge and understandings of catholicism as poppa quite rightly pointed out is limited, is that you said all Esua descendants are going to hell, does that mean even if they are good? As god gave them free will?

I also agree with poppa that the problems do arise when people start to put their own spin on things and when they interpret things differently from others, that was the point I was trying to make. I believe in some power higher than my own I do not however want that tainted by views which I can't agree with on a personal level. I have found this within the catholic church, its not the catholic persons fault, its my interpretation of how I would want people to treat me and hence how I treat them. For example I would never tell someone who was confused about their religious views that they were down right going to hell. People have questions and others have answers but I don't like scare tactics.

I've grown up around people who treat their religion terribly (protestant catholic sectarianism is very violent where I live) perhaps now you'll understand why I don't like how different groups interpret the bible in different ways.

Retrotia disagrees: It's love that's the greatest of these- faith, hope, & love. Why do u have it missing?
You really don't see the contradiction in this comment do you?

the Bible says it was not written by any man's private intpretation, but by the Holy Ghost. The Bible is therefore completely infallible.
The Koran says the same, so Muslim believers have exactly the same basis for claiming that it is "completely infallible". It's OK with me if you (and they) believe this for the purpose of finding your own salvation, but I do have a problem with your insistence that the rest of us MUST accept both your premise and your conclusions. It's this inability (or unwillingness) to see that your assumptions, beliefs and conclusions are valid only for yourself and those who agree with you that the rest of us find so arrogant and offensive. It would be bad enough if you just told us we were stupid and wrong, but the icing on the cake is to invoke God's wrath along with your own and threaten us with eternal torture if we don't shape up. It really shouldn't surprise you that your approach meets some resistance, even among those (like myself) who find much in the Bible to love and cherish.

Duh... charity is love... so why did you give me a disagree? If you want to deny the facts then you really are as smart as you thought. I got that straight from the bible. I was in Missionettes for 4 years and I had to memorize that passage. Even though I'm not a christian today, I still remember the things I was taught and I still remember the bible verses I memeorized. I wouldn't post something I thought was untrue. I checked to make sure I had every word currect accourding to the NKJ verson. I'd like an apology. Lol your not as samrt as you thought you were because that statement was completely dumb. You should have looked up charity in the dictionary. Duh.

1 Corinthians 13 [Click this icon to listen to an audio file of 1 Corinthians 13]
The Way of Love

13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but I do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 13:2 And if I have prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so that I can remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 13:3 If I give away everything I own, and if I give over my body in order to boast, 1 but do not have love, I receive no benefit.

13:4 Love is patient, love is kind, it is not envious. Love does not brag, it is not puffed up. 13:5 It is not rude, it is not self-serving, it is not easily angered or resentful. 13:6 It is not glad about injustice, but rejoices in the truth. 13:7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

13:8 Love never ends. But if there are prophecies, they will be set aside; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be set aside. 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, 13:10 but when what is perfect 2 comes, the partial will be set aside. 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, 3 I set aside childish ways. 13:12 For now we see in a mirror indirectly, 4 but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known. 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.
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This is" love" in the NKJ & NIV versions. Just because both words mean 'agape' in the Greek- there is no reason for some Bible translators to substitute the word charity for love.
The word "charity" is too elusive to use also in other passages that call for the word "love" that is used.
Charity is an outworking of Love. Think about this... If charity was the greatest virtue-how does that make someone feel who has nothing & is in need of "charity?" This is one reason why the word charity is inappropriate.
Also, faith, hope, & love are cardinal virtues that we take with us to heaven. Can you even understand taking "charity" with you? No, it implies something material also.
So, sorry if I offended you- but I don't agree with the interpretation you've been given or have learned.
Love never fails.

Ok I couldn't care less what verson it is. The fact is charity means love. It's a different word for love. You are clearly not very bright. Look up the word. You think you got all the asnwers, guess what... you don't. Your wrong. I'm right. Charity is love. I had plenty of bibles and in one charity was used as love. Don't f-ing try to tell me what's what. You don't even know of what you speech. God I am so tired of talking to people who are not smart. I like converstaions with people who know about what they speech not people who think they do.

Look up this... this will prove your clearly just spitting out crap. Its in KJ duhhhh Here's from an online bible...

Bible Resources, Online Bible, Read the Bible, Search the Bible, Bible Study Plan, Passage Search, Keyword Search (http://bibleresources.bible.com/keywordsearchresults.php?keyword=charity&multiplemethod=all&version1=9&numpageresults=25&sortorder=bookorder)


Charity charity charity charity!! I could be 10 and know that charity is another word for love.


Here's the dictonarys veiw...

Charity (virtue) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charity_%28virtue%29)


Note that the King James Version uses both the words charity and love to translate the idea of caritas / ἀγάπη: sometimes it uses one, sometimes the other, for the same concept. Most other English translations, both before and since, do not; instead throughout they use the same more direct English word love, so that the unity of the teaching should not be in doubt. Love can have other meanings in English, but as used in the Bible it almost always refers to the virtue of caritas.

I don't think anyone except for "mother Teresa" could claim to possess that kind of love you are referring to------BUT do not display with your words- either love or charity towards your fellow man. That is a martyr's spirit-such perfection of the human spirit. And this perfection only wanes- starting with the believers & ending with the rest of the world's beliefs.
For me, it's "love thy neighbor as thyself" which means doing & saying no harm.
I'm not perfect. And I do believe love can mean self-sacrifice, but it must be weighed by wisdom.
I do suggest you look at your own words- because they aren't charitable or loveable.
Here's one ex.-
He who guards his mouth preserves his life(Proverbs 13:3)

To revert to your original question- If you are happy with your beliefs & that it doesn't matter about heaven or hell to you, then you should be content rather than caring what anyone else thinks or says.
Good luck to you.

I care what people say in regards to my own opinions. I speak my mind only to show people a different side to things. I'm not the type of person to normally get offened, but with certain opinions, I disagree and therefore do not agree and speak out against it. I will appologize to you and anyone else in this thread. I'm quick to anger sometimes this I know. I am sorry for being a bit loud and angered. I should have remained calm. After all you can't hope to show someone your veiws and expect them to listen or agree when your yelling at them. :-) So with that I say, I am not a christian at this time, however I try to keep the golden rules close at hand, in order to try to be a good person. When I referred to 1 Corinthians 13 I wasn't implying that I follow it word for word or that I even believe every word. I was trying to use it as an example of something I memorized and learned within my time as a christian and Missionette. I just wanted to show that I too, know the bible and wanted to make that clear so that you could know that I had belonged to a religion. I was a christian for 18 years or so. I was close to god and enjoyed being so. As I've said in other posts, I fell away from god because I don't understand and agree with a few things in the bible. Also my parnet's clamed to be christians, but were different people inside and out of church. I refused to be a hypocrite, and to not be like them. I wanted to serve god with my whole heart, in so doing I need to find myself and where I stand in this world. Til then I will remain without religion. Does that clear anything up?
I wanted you to know you were talking to someone with wisdom and knowledge about the religion. If I didn't know about christianity I would not have posted this question. I believe that the christian faith has become too hard, cold and lukewarm. Thus I question your way of thinking in order to rock the foundations of what you believe. It's better to question your faith then to believe blindfully. With this all said, I have made my apology, I have cleared up what I hope will help you understand better.
Regarding the charity and love debate, charity is the same thing as love just a different and older word. I gave serveral sites to look at referring to love and charity. I hope that I was able to show you that indeed they are one in the same, if you still feel that I am wrong, you are denying truth and denying truth is like denying that Jesus died and rose the 3rd day. Maybe you learned something new today, that would be a good thing. It's always nice to learn something new.
I hope we all take something from this conversation. Although it was heated once and awhile, I think for the most part a lot was said that needed to be said and perhaps we can continue this discusion and get even more from it. Good day to you all.

Firstly "one or two bad things" was meant to be sarcastic! I most definitely don't agree with anything hitler did! and i'm fully aware that he was probably one of the most evil men in history, right up there with Stalin. I'm sorry if it was misinterpreted.

But Hitler did do those things and did believe in God and that Jesus died for his sins. my interpretation of your previous words was that as long as you accept god and jesus you would go to heaven and your sins forgiven. I was just pointing out that, that probably wasn't the only way to get in or out. nothing meant personally i really do hope Hitler is in hell if there is one.

Retoria, one thing that confuses me, and i don't claim to be an expert, and my knowledge and understandings of catholicism as poppa quite rightly pointed out is limited, is that you said all Esua descendants are going to hell, does that mean even if they are good? as god gave them free will?

I also agree with poppa that the problems do arise when people start to put their own spin on things and when they interpret things differently from others, that was the point i was trying to make. i believe in some power higher than my own i do not however want that tainted by views which i can't agree with on a personal level. i have found this within the catholic church, its not the catholic persons fault, its my interpretation of how i would want people to treat me and hence how i treat them. For example i would never tell someone who was confused about their religious views that they were down right going to hell. people have questions and others have answers but i don't like scare tactics.

I've grown up around people who treat their religion terribly (protestant catholic sectarianism is very violent where i live) perhaps now you'll understand why i don't like how different groups interpret the bible in different ways.
U08,
First of all, I will back up what Rotatia saidabout Esau's descendants, because that is the Word of God. The first thing you must understand is that NO ONE gets to heaven by "being good" as you call it. The Bible says there is none righteous, no not one. The only way a person can make it to heaven is through and by the Blood of Christ... recognizing that His substitutionary death on the cross of Calvary is the only thing that makes provision for us to be forgiven from our sins. The Bible clearly tells us that "if any man tries to get there any other way, he's like a thief and a robber". I detect that you have a good heart, and are truly seeking the right way. Keep the good attitude you have, and you'll be OK, because I believe you're sincere.
God bless you.

First of all, i am offended to be called immature. I prooved you wrong b4 and as i recall you even said that you agreed that you were wrong, so once again you'll need to realized once again your wrong. I'm 21. I've been through more crap then a lot of ppl have. I've learned life lessons the hard way. I don't have the answers to everything. There are many things that i would like to still learn, but when i kno something that is fact, its fact weither you like it or not. I voice my opinion weither you like it or not. I'm strong enough to not let you or any other religious fanatic try to fear me into a bogus religion. If this is what you want to show ppl about your religion, then don't expect ppl to convert anytime soon. You have a lot of things wrong. I was a christian for 18 years, i kno the bible very well so when you try to qoute faulse or exaturated things im going to laugh in your face and say wrong! At least kno of what you speak, and at least follow your own religion the currect way. Would Jesus like the way you or any of you are acting? No, he'd be ashamed. You force ppl to feel bad, force ppl to conform and force ppl to feel weak. I'm not weak, im not a subject to be toyed with, im not a slave and i most certainly am not going to be a product of insanity. So..., im more mature then you are. You want to fling the the bible around and act like your high and mighty. Your just upset because i rocked the foundations of what you think, you don't want to listen to reason or reality. You'd rather live in the dark rather then free yourslef and live in the light. Get off your throne. You qoute false words, i've read the bible and you twist it Retrotia and Poppa. In my opinion you need help b/c it seems a few screws are lose. Don't try to tell me i don't kno what im talking about. I think that your seriously in need of a reality check. No one care's what you say b/c in the end we will believe what we believe. You thought i didnt kno the bbile? Well i can fling it better then you if i need to.

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity
Raynefreak, the first suggestion I have for you is to discontinue with your posts. You seem to be annoyed and offended by the slightest disagreement. As to your knowledge of the Word... I can't speak to that... HOWEVER... having knowledge and applying it and living it is a far different matter. Your ramblings speak volumes as to your immaturity. I have been trying to rationalize with a very irrational person.
I do not care what you believe, but you need to exclude yourself from a grown up forum if all you know how to do is make personal attacks. You think too highly of your self-professed wisdom if you think anything have said has shaken me. I know in whom I have believed, and am confident that He will speak to me when and if I get out of line. I apologized to you in the spirit of meekness, and you don't even have the decency to acknowledge that. I pray that this rebellious spirit you have will be replaced with the spirit of God. You will never find true peace until you draw close to the Prince of Peace! You won't find Him with Wicca or any other false religion.
What you need to understand is that "religion" will get you no where. The only thing that will get ANYONE on the only road to heaven is SALVATION.. If you die in your sins it will not be because some of us have not tried to point you in the right direction. In order for this to happen, you must be teachable... not rebellious. I am praying for you, and love your soul. I pray I will see you in Heaven. God bless you.

Poppa, did you even read my last post?
I care what people say in regards to my own opinions. I speak my mind only to show people a different side to things. I'm not the type of person to normally get offened, but with certain opinions, I disagree and therefore do not agree and speak out against it. I will appologize to you and anyone else in this thread. I'm quick to anger sometimes this I know. I am sorry for being a bit loud and angered. I should have remained calm. After all you can't hope to show someone your veiws and expect them to listen or agree when your yelling at them. :-) So with that I say, I am not a christian at this time, however I try to keep the golden rules close at hand, in order to try to be a good person. When I referred to 1 Corinthians 13 I wasn't implying that I follow it word for word or that I even believe every word. I was trying to use it as an example of something I memorized and learned within my time as a christian and Missionette. I just wanted to show that I too, know the bible and wanted to make that clear so that you could know that I had belonged to a religion. I was a christian for 18 years or so. I was close to god and enjoyed being so. As I've said in other posts, I fell away from god because I don't understand and agree with a few things in the bible. Also my parnet's clamed to be christians, but were different people inside and out of church. I refused to be a hypocrite, and to not be like them. I wanted to serve god with my whole heart, in so doing I need to find myself and where I stand in this world. Til then I will remain without religion. Does that clear anything up?
I wanted you to know you were talking to someone with wisdom and knowledge about the religion. If I didn't know about christianity I would not have posted this question. I believe that the christian faith has become too hard, cold and lukewarm. Thus I question your way of thinking in order to rock the foundations of what you believe. It's better to question your faith then to believe blindfully. With this all said, I have made my apology, I have cleared up what I hope will help you understand better.
Regarding the charity and love debate, charity is the same thing as love just a different and older word. I gave serveral sites to look at referring to love and charity. I hope that I was able to show you that indeed they are one in the same, if you still feel that I am wrong, you are denying truth and denying truth is like denying that Jesus died and rose the 3rd day. Maybe you learned something new today, that would be a good thing. It's always nice to learn something new.
I hope we all take something from this conversation. Although it was heated once and awhile, I think for the most part a lot was said that needed to be said and perhaps we can continue this discusion and get even more from it. Good day to you all.


I understand how you could think that I am immiture but I can assure you I am not. I'm 21 and sure sometimes I can have my moments. I may have disagreed with some of the things said here, however I didn't disagree with everything said. Even if I did, my last post will explain. I am hurt by you words. I am not immiture, I am an adult and I have a right to post my opinions. I'm not rebelious or confussed. I've made my mends. I disagree with you, and I will leave it at that.

Poppa, did you even read my last post?
I care what people say in regards to my own opinions. I speak my mind only to show ppl a different side to things. I'm not the type of person to normally get offened, but with certain opinions, i disagree and therefore do not agree and speak out against it. I will appologize to you and anyone else in this thread. I'm quick to anger sometimes this i know. I am sorry for being a bit loud and angered. I should have remained calm. After all you can't hope to show someone your veiws and expect them to listen or agree when your yelling at them. :-) So with that i say, i am not a christian at this time, however i try to keep the golden rules close at hand, in order to try to be a good person. When i refered to 1 Corinthians 13 i wasn't implying that i follow it word for word or that i even believe every word. I was trying to use it as an example of something i memorized and learned within my time as a christian and Missionette. I just wanted to show that i too, know the bible and wanted to make that clear so that you could know that i had belonged to a religion. I was a christian for 18 years or so. I was close to god and enjoyed being so. As i've said in other posts, i fell away from god because i don't understand and agree with a few things in the bible. Also my parnet's clamed to be christians, but were different people inside and out of church. I refused to be a hypocrite, and to not be like them. I wanted to serve god with my whole heart, in so doing i need to find myself and where i stand in this world. Til then i will remain without religion. Does that clear anything up?
I wanted you to know you were talking to someone with wisdom and knowledge about the religion. If i didn't know about christianity i would not have posted this question. I believe that the christian faith has become too hard, cold and lukewarm. Thus i question your way of thinking in order to rock the foundations of what you believe. It's better to question your faith then to believe blindfully. With this all said, i have made my appology, i have cleared up what i hope will help you understand better.
Regarding the charity and love debate, charity is the same thing as love just a different and older word. I gave serveral sites to look at refering to love and charity. I hope that i was able to show you that indeed they are one in the same, if you still feel that i am wrong, you are denying truth and denying truth is like denying that Jesus died and rose the 3rd day. Maybe you learned something new today, that would be a good thing. It's always nice to learn something new.
I hope we all take something from this conversation. Although it was heated once and awhile, i think for the most part a lot was said that needed to be said and perhaps we can continue this discusion and get even more from it. Good day to you all.


I understand how you could think that i am immiture but i can assure you i am not. I'm 21 and sure sometimes i can have my moments. I may have disagreed with some of the things said here, however i didn't disagree with everything said. Even if i did, my last post will explain. I am hurt by you words. I am not immiture, i am an adult and i have a right to post my opinions. I'm not rebelious or confussed. I've made my mends. I disagree with you, and i will leave it at that.
It is wonderful that we can disagree without the fear of torture or a firing squad as in some countries.
You and I will then agree to disagree. God bless you. I hope and pray you are able to work through whatever issues you have. I have a few myself. This has been very interesting. I will continue to pray for you, Raynefreak.

Thank you, I hoped I showd you that I am indeed of sound mind and not immiutre and cruel. I think you needed to know the whole story to understand me. I hope you can accept my apology. I think the bigger man is the one who admits faults and wrongs. As I've done. Thanks :-)

Thankyou, i hoped i showd you that i am indeed of sound mind and not immiutre and cruel. I think you needed to know the whole story to understand me. I hope you can accept my apology. I think the bigger man is the one who admits faults and wrongs. As i've done. Thanks :-)
Not a problem! God bless you!! :o

RAyne I can understand what you have been trying to explain to everyone about wiccan/pagan beliefs. Lets face it, I too am Wiccan. On the first or second page someone claimed to be terriefied of witches yet most of these people do not even realize that they walk past us every day, they talk to us, invite us into their homes and bbq's. They have no knowledge of what or who we reaaly are lets face it.

Rayne you will only find peace when you embrace who you are as a human before you worry about religion getting muddled all up into it. Trying to force someone to see that we believe in a god or goddess is not easy to say the least. We are what we are. I too was raised in the midst of both worlds. My mom turned anglican for along time although she ad been raised celt. I was raised with both so I can see how hard it is for those who do not understand to reallize that we will not eat their children, turn them into anything, or sacrifice. We do not let blood in Fact our number 1 COMMANDMENT is to harm none lest ye be harmed. We do not follow the line of satanic service, in fact we turn our back on the devil because it is only when you give attention to evil that it can survive.

When people come to seek out their god or goddess and realize that there is no one way to honor our belief or no one way to show how much we do love our god, goddess etc. Those who believe that much in God should step back and maybe realize that you do not have to constantly walk around trying to convince everyone to believe as they do. By doing this they are only trying to convience themselves. When they come to peace with themselves, they are able to accept others.

When people come to seek out their god or goddess and realize that their is no one way to honor our belief or no one way to show how much we do love our god, goddess etc. Those who belive that much in God should step back and maybe realize that you do not have to constantly walk around trying to convince everyone to beleive as they do. by doing this they are only trying to convience themselves. when they come to peace with themselves, they are able to accept others.
Yes, yes, "no one way". This insistence on "only one way" is the source of so much conflict, both within and between people. Totally unnecessary, it seems to me.

I'd love to know why ppl think if your wiccan your going to hell, or that your a sananist. From my experiance (i was brought up christian) christian's look down upon the wiccan and or pagan religion's. Because it's not following ''god's'' will. Thus, were (wiccan's and or pagan's going to hell. It's so very rude to judge someone who believes differently. It's ignorant to also try to preach to them and convert them. Why do ppl do this? I personally hate it and wish i could beat ppl down for it. Make's me crazy. Wicca/pagan ppl do not have anything to do with satanism. There is what is called a left and right hand path. Light per say and dark. Neither path is evil. Satanism in a certain perspective is perfectly fine. It is wrong (to me) when a sanaist kills ppl or animals to sacrifice. But, it started out as a ''selfinvolved'' religion. Meaning that focus was on self other then the world or other's. Wicca and pagan's are the other route. It's all about the world, nature, loving other's and life. Outward. So with all this said, how are ppl so blind and rasist and ignorant to those who are different. I'd love to see a person try to tell me i'm going to hell or that i'm evil. I would simply say, let me tell you what i believe. I worship the goddess-same as god. I am thankful for the world and try to care for it and the inhabitant's of it.
WICCA isn't nothing to do with satan or the devil or anything santic people don't understand about it they just say that because the tails about witches and people who were in to the occult I'm in to the occult myself buti m pagan Wicca and paganism is all about kindess and working with good energys and the natural emlemts on earth we worship nature and do nice things and worship god and goddess.

If someone was satanic they would be would a chrisen witch because they would do voodoo stuff like that because they would have to believe in god and the devil so they could act agenst god you no what I'm trying to say. They use BLACK MAGIC/ but we don't we use WHITE GREEN NATURAL

Basically my take on it, besides what Fr Chuck has said, is people have the impression that Wiccan's believe the devil has more power than God and to be a Wiccan you have to believe the white magic. Magic and God do not go hand in hand. God tells us to steer clear of magic.
Also people have the impression that Wiccan's only believe in God as a force secondary to the Wiccan's beliefs when you are to put God as first in the Christian belief. The Bible says even the demons believe and shutter.
It is good to have a spiritual journey but be open to Christianity and other beliefs and come to your beliefs. I am a Christian but I like reading the ying yang teaching, the
Jewish Kabalah (not Madonna's version) and some other things that Christians shun.
I believe you can learn from everything the thing is having a good discernment.

I used to be involved in wicca and drugs. I had turned my back on God, who I thought caused all kinds of hell in my life. I am ever thankful that He never turned his back on me. He brought me to a point of realizing His love for me and my need for Him. Jesus said"John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

John 10:27
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

And in Matthew 19 He tells how to get eternal life: 23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?”
28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[k] or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

When you say Christians are judging and not openminded, it is really Jesus who you are calling judgmental. It is His words we live by, not our own opinions.

I am a Christian but I like reading the ying yang teaching, the
Jewish Kabalah (not Madonna's version) and some other things that Christians shun.
I believe you can learn from everything the thing is having a good discernment.
I think you're onto something fundamentally important here. Without discernment, we are unqualified to read ANY sacred text or book of wisdom, or interpret ANY dream or vision, or weigh the words of ANY preacher, prophet, or visionary. With it, no source need be shunned.

Do you share your interest in non-Christian spiritual teachings with any of your Christian friends? Since you say that "Christians shun" these subjects, I'm guessing that some of them would say that your interest in and reading of such things shows a lack of discernment. Is that stereotype warranted, in your experience?

Megg,
I agree with you when you wrote in one of your earlier posts that we are all made by one supreme being. I think what is important from here is to know something about that supreme being. The question is how are we to go about learning about that supreme being? What knowledge is available to us and how do we get it?

Cheers,
David

I agree with some ideas from all of you please don't put all of us christians on the bad side I don't want to judge anyone and I am trying to love everyone even my enemies as my lord as saviour Jesus Christ who prayed for the ones who killed him on the cross(jewish Priest) but I don't blame jews and the only religion which I strongly disagree is satanics where THEY REALLY DO WORSHIP THE DEVIL AND MAKE SACRIFICES BY KILLING BABIES ETC. I may not know much about the bible but then again I am still growing with the lord I ammit that I ain't perfect only God, the holy spirit, and Jesus Christ are perfect I also believe that only Jesus christ is the way to heavan but I am not going to force anyone to turn to him or judge him because I do not know how he or she feels or what they been through but I pray that they will turn form the evil ways they have been living in and go to the lord I pray for all of you and I hope that you all learn that There is some people that are very religious and are still sinning and try not to repent or just go to church so people could say "hey look! he is worshipping the lord the loudest he must truly be spiritual!" they are just religious and would burn in hell unless they repent which I truly hope they do(the repenting part :)) because God is not a religious God he wants to have a personal relitionship with every single 1 of us so I pray that you megg will return to the lord in your time because nothing good could come from returning to him if you are being forced to.

p.s. I'm truly sorry that any of you are offened by my answer but I believe that is the way. God Bless ALL of you

p.s.s I'm 16 years old so if any of you want to say I'm immature go for it.

because God is not a religious God
I like this. I think there's a deep truth here.

As a pagan, the only discontent with Christians is that they killed people who wouldn't convert. Ala.. St. Patrick leading the "snakes" (or pagans) out of Ireland. Other than that, I couldn't care what anyone believes in.

People always hate on what they don't understand. Just know that you are right, and they are right. We could all get along if we agreed to disagree

I agree to a certain extent but you can't put all people in the same category. That is a stereo typing. Not all catholics believe you will go to hell. I think its basically because they have never picked up a book on the subject becaue they were taught that anything to do with Witchcraft is bad. And it scares them to look at something other then there bible. My beliefs are that the god and goddess can be what you want them to be. And if you wish them to be in the form of jesus and mary so be it. It only changes when you name them. As pagans we use the energy of a lot of deities but we all have one that we use in everyday use. I also agree that there is no good or bad witchcraft its all in the intent you set forth on it, however I do believe Satanism is evil and it is a selfish religion. You can not practice the religion without a sacrifice of some living thing in a terrible manor. Pagans use to make sacrifices hundreds of years ago but not eat the heart of anything to better themselves. As a earth religion we (Pagans) have come to make offerings rather then sacrifices.

Yes all christians who are Truly christians believe wiccans will go to hell. Its not stereo typing. Its fact. Its in the bible. God does not like witchcraft. Those who wish to enter the kingdom of heaven can only due so through me. Me being the lord.

Hi Meg,
But that isn't what you said. You said and I quote" Why do people assume that Wicca is satanic and that I'm going to hell!' Sorry if I misunderstood. But like in magick you need to be clear in what you say and leave no room for miss inturpetation. You probery are right in regards to devout christians but the normal everyday christians really don't believe that.

I'd love to know why ppl think if your wiccan your going to hell, or that your a sananist.
Perhaps because they are afraid of what they do not know , and because many have been brainwashed for years to listen and follow the "correct" ways and paths of life (meaning the ways and paths as per their own religious preferences)?

I'd love to know why ppl think if your wiccan your going to hell, or that your a sananist. From my experiance (i was brought up christian) christian's look down upon the wiccan and or pagan religion's. Because it's not following ''god's'' will. Thus, were (wiccan's and or pagan's going to hell. It's so very rude to judge someone who believes differently. It's ignorant to also try to preach to them and convert them. Why do ppl do this? I personally hate it and wish i could beat ppl down for it. Make's me crazy. Wicca/pagan ppl do not have anything to do with satanism. There is what is called a left and right hand path. Light per say and dark. Neither path is evil. Satanism in a certain perspective is perfectly fine. It is wrong (to me) when a sanaist kills ppl or animals to sacrifice. But, it started out as a ''selfinvolved'' religion. Meaning that focus was on self other then the world or other's. Wicca and pagan's are the other route.
The only answer is to be non-confrontational. I have friends who I refer to as Crispies (very very Christian/Republican), they invite me to a few church things a year and I try to attend at least one thing (because my friend's in whatever the event is). Since they are my good friends the are naturally worried my soul will go to hell because I'm a tree hugging dirt worshipper :D . They tell me they pray for me and I say thank you. Some more confrontation person might say, "No thank you I have my own god/goddess". My take is that my life isn't so wonderful that I won't accept prayers to gods I don't personally pray to. If you have friends who repeatedly preach at you (but don't confuse a good debate for preaching) just ask to stop in a pleasant way such as "I thank you for your concern, but you really make me uncomfortable when you preach to me. I'm gonna go now." Unless they are a total blockhead, they will won't argue.
When I first started to research Wicca (I classify myself as dirt worshipper- I love having faith but refuse all religion) and talked about it to my friends they'd all get that certain look in their eyes - like they had a sudden need for holy water. The most common question was the confusion with Satanism. So I decided to do some research on Satanism - written by it's own followers not someone looking down upon it already. Guess what I found out? The church of Satan isn't that bad. Hm. Totally self centered, but they don't sacrifice animals or humans. Sure there may always be some tramuatized goth kids with black eyeliner abusing and killing animals saying they are doing Satan's will, but there are also the Christians who bomb abortion clinics or Priests who look for love in all the wrong places, so each side has it's freaks that the whole religion should not be judged upon. Heck, I don't like religion because in each one it's becomes about the people of the church and power plays rather than faith. When someone asks me to join their I just say no, thank you with a sincere smile on my face and walk away before they can argue.

Wow, I think this is my longest post ever. :rolleyes:

Guess what I found out? The church of Satan isn't that bad.
Of course it is not that bad! It is just a belief, equal to Christianity or any other main religion - with the only exception of the deity involved.
Just as there is no objective supported evidence for the correctness of the Christian claim, none is there for any other main-religion claims, Church of Satan claim, "Church of the Flying Pink Unicorn" claim , Wicca claim , "Church of the Spaghetti Monster claim , etc. etc. etc.

In short there is no objective supported evidence for any religious belief. All a person can do is BELIEVE in the existence and/or in the powers of one or more deities , whomever that deity may be. In other words the belief in any deity is based on lots of hot air, so it does not matter which deity one refers to, be that God, Allah, Hara Krishna, Devil, the Pink Unicorn, the Spaghetti Monster, Wicca deities, etc. : all of them are as far as objective supported evidence is concerned totally imaginairy !

:rolleyes:

In short there is no objective supported evidence for any religious belief.
....

all of them are as far as objective supported evidence is concerned totally imaginairy!
You make it sound like that's a BAD thing. What makes "objective supported evidence" so special , and what's so wrong with imagining "realities" that inspire us? If I thought the only useful realities were those that depend on "objective supported evidence", I'd be pissed.

You make it sound like that's a BAD thing. What makes "objective supported evidence" so special , and what's so wrong with imagining "realities" that inspire us?
It seems that you drew some negative conclusions and suggest now that that is my position. I wonder why you do that...

As long as people REALLY understand that all religion and religious thinking is based on BELIEF and not on OBJECTIVE SUPPORTED REALITY, I see no problem with specific religious views.
But the intolerance shown by so many theists - here and elsewhere - for believers with different views and/or for those rejecting such views show that many theists have lost this understanding of reality and/or the link with reality, and have convinced themselves that what they believe equals reality for them.

So seen this way your "what's wrong with imagining realitites that inspire us" indeed shows that losing that firm grip on understanding the difference between reality and imagining realities is a big and important one.

Understanding what is "objective supported evidence" is important to all of us, and understanding the difference between real "objective supported evidence" and "imagining *realities* that inspire us" is just as important.

Thank you for allowing me to point that out even clearer than I did before !

:D

It seems that you drew some negative conclusions and suggest now that that is my position. I wonder why you do that ...I just like to rattle the cage of hyper-rationality/objectivity that you've placed around yourself.


As long as people REALLY understand that all religion and religious thinking is based on BELIEF and not on OBJECTIVE SUPPORTED REALITY, I see no problem with specific religious views.I guess I don't see the distinction that you draw between BELIEF and OBJECTIVE SUPPORTED REALITY being as clear and unambiguous as you do.

But the intolerance shown by so many theists - here and elsewhere - for believers with different views and/or for those rejecting such views show that many theists have lost this understanding of reality and/or the link with reality, and have convinced themselves that what they believe equals reality for them.
In my experience, theists are neither more nor less likely to be intolerant than atheists. It's a significant minority in both camps. Being a mystic, rather than a theist, atheist, or agnostic, I have encountered intolerance from all three, though far less often from agnostics.

So seen this way your "what's wrong with imagining realitites that inspire us" indeed shows that losing that firm grip on understanding the difference between reality and imagining realities is a big and important one.

Understanding what is "objective supported evidence" is important to all of us, and understanding the difference between real "objective supported evidence" and "imagining *realities* that inspire us" is just as important.
You are free to choose and live within a "reality" that includes only what you can observe directly and explain logically. But your choice in that regard is no more binding on others than their *imagined realities* are on you.

Your insistence that any BELIEF that goes beyond OBJECTIVITY is an inferior version of reality (or worse, a dangerous delusion) is your own value judgment, nothing more. It is legitimate and binding on you, and those who agree with you, no one else.

Thank you for allowing me to point that out even clearer than I did before!
You're welcome, although it wasn't a lack of clarity in your statements that prompted my response. I disagree with the fundamentals of your position, not your statement of it.

I just like to rattle the cage of hyper-rationality/objectivity that you've placed around yourself.
You're free to believe whatever you like but religious beliefs of whatever sort are so far based on a lot of hot air, and nothing else, as - even after thousands of years - religion has never been able to support any of it's wild dogmatic claims objectively.

As to rationality : people supporting that view are at least trying (and are actually doing quite well in doing so) to support their findings on an objective supported evidence basis.

That does not make such views better than religious views in some moral or ethical way, but surely make them more valuable in a practical, pragmatic, scientific, and realistic way.

I always say : believe whatever you like to believe, as long as you realize that you believe that !

:rolleyes:

I don't know where you went to church, or what your parents are like, or how you think things through, but I believe that your "Christian experience" must have been all wrong if you're this upset about Christianity as a whole. You say that it's not just Christianity, but it seems to be the only one you mention or get riled up about. I grew up Christian as well, and I love it. Of course I think sitting through long classes is boring, but I can't sit still in school either. It's a type of learning style, not weather or not I like the subject material. I would kill myself if I had to go to Sunday school ALL Sunday, but I could sit down with the Bible and just read by myself for days. I've never looked down on, felt pity for, or preached to anyone of a different religion. Quite a few of my friends are actively Pagan, Hindu, Jewish, and (one)Shinto. I love diversity and thrive in it. My father was an atheist his entire life before he took a theology course in college and came to Jesus. I was once asked by a friend to baptize her(I was so scared that I would drop her).

I just don't understand this stereotype about Christians looking down on others, being preachy, or hating gays and witches(actually my father was adopted and his birth mother was a hippie lesbian witch, who did this one-time thing in a field with a guy and dumped her preemie asthmatic baby in an orphanage.. ). Whenever I mention that I'm Christian, I get this look that resembles disgust, and people ask me if I'm racist. It's really ridiculous. Christians are normal, smart, caring, artistic, individuals just like everyone else. Some Christians even believe in evolution. Did you know that?

And while we're on stereotypes, every friend I have that's moved here from another state originally thought that West Virginia was filled with racist, bigoted, gun-slinging, fanatical, rednecks. What the heck?

1) If you or your neighbor don't own a gun, you WILL get your trash run through by bears.
2) WV fought with the Union, and on top of that, has been a democratic state for decades.
3) I live in the capital. We have every clique imaginable. The 'creekers' or rednecks as you know them, are a very small minority who annoy the rest of us and are ignored. Every state has their weirdos.
And 4) I was told just recently that my friend from Florida was told that WV was a dump, and that she was shocked to find that it's so beautiful. Now people think we're ugly? Really? How immature. XD