I am so ashamed to be an American, to be living in this country and I'm sure I'm not the only one. My point is a this, said a few ways:

Regardless of what your political situation in, there is one very important fact no one can deny, Pres. Bush said we went into Iraq because there were weapons of mass destruction. We then found out and the Pres. Acknowledged that there were no WMDs, that there was misinformation. Looking through history it seems we should all learn something, one can not just trust what an informant/Comm./Gen./Sec. of Def. when you are waging war on a country. One HAS to know the facts and there were ways for out Pres. To know the facts, but he obviously didn't dig that deep. We went into Iraq on a lie. Why can't we see that that is a problem. That there isn't anything wrong with saying we were wrong and now we are going to fix it. But that is not what happened.

Why does America go running around telling other Diplomats what they can and can't do, what they can and can't have? Who made us the higher power? Now the Pres. Says we are there to bring Democracy to Iraq. Ok, well, did this country ask to change their current system to one that we model today? Why do we think that we had the right to go in there and change their lives COMPLETELY because Pres. Bush thinks it a good thing to give them this so called "gift". We go telling Iran they can not have a nuclear plant, but we are allowed to manufacture nuclear weapons. What makes us think that we know how to keep dangerous or deadly things under proper control? Seems the America that has been created appears to think that we are smart than everyone else. And that, obviously is not true, for many reasons. Interesting how Rices and Bush keep saying that the Iraqis have to get their military together so that they can take control and our troops can leave. Funny how we bring this amazing shift in on their economy, in their politics and their military.

There was violence in Iraq WAY before we got there. If we pull our troops out now there won't be an increase in violence. RIGHT NOW, THIS time has proven that the country they live in today is FAR more avalanched by violence than it has been in a very very long time. There was violence before our troops got there, there was Saddam, our troops invaded Iraq and not only did the violence stay the same, it has escalated. Our troops pull out and there will still be violence. Our troops leave, and there will still be violence. Our troops continue to stay and go door to door "embedded" into the Iraqi military, the doors they open will hold more violence and more danger, the Iraqi people did not ask for this and they don't want us there.

Pres. Bush did not make a new plan, or a new strategy or anything else. We are going to us more military force, OK, so let's just keep increasing our troops, from 4 years ago to today, how many more of our military is there? It didn't work the first time, it didn't work the second time they tried implementing a new plan and here we go again, adding more troops. I thought the definition for insane was 'very foolish', ex. "Pres. Bush has taken insane measures concerning this war in/with Iraq."

Sadly our troops are continuing to die. And while I can not than them enough for ensuring out security and at first, fighting for a cause. They have no been left there, with a so called "non opened time", so when will the get to come home? Seems no one can answer that. I care about our troops and their families, I care about the Iraqi people, the things and people they love and care about. I care that America has allies, I care about the need for us to back down and stop trying to control the world. To me it's like 2 people in a bad relationship, one may really not like something about the other, but eventually it's realized by someone, the person that has a mature thought and they start trying to only change themselves because no one can make anyone change if they don't want to. In hand with that, when the mature person continues to work on themselves the other person starts feeling like things are changing, that something good is going on and then they can work on themselves together. That's what America needs to do, that is what Bush needs to do, be more mature in thought.

So like I said, at the moment I am ashamed to live here, to be an American.

How do you feel about the country you live in? What does America represent to you? What should it represent to the world?

I would be glad to chip in to let you move to some nice nation like Iran or Iraq where you can live and be proud of your nation.

I am so happy to not be american. I am Canadian, and most Canadians was against the Iraq war right from the start. Our Government would not get involved and because of that we were called terrorist nation according to you president. Just because we did not believe it was right, we did not agree on the policies of Bush. We knew all along it was a scam. So now I can say I am proud to be Canadian and that even though you are our neighbours we stood up and said NO. The American government I believe sticks their nose into every conflict around the world and they interfere and get involved which make matters only worse. Proud, Super Power, that only thinks about themselves and money. For even God is printed on your money, when God has nothing to do with money. You can not worship two masters. You eighter worship God or money. Guess what, for north americans, yes that is here in Canada as well. Money is a big industry and money is the cause of the conflict in Iraq. It is called OIL. I have said this before, but the biggest interest to George Bush Senior and Junior is IRAG AND OIL. Notice that when Bush's Father was president. What happened. The War of 93. What happened when Son was President. War of Never Ending. See any similarities here. They have big bucks involved there and that is their only interest. The safety of the American people are not the forefront concern because if it was, they would have not invaded another country. I guarantee that if Bill Clinton was still in office the attacks on America would not have happened and the war would not be going on right now.



Joe

Proud to Be Canadian. I can wear my flag in any Country and be welcome. I would suggest to all my American Friends, and American family. Anytime you travel. Where a Canadian Flag and you will be treated well and be safe.

Hey I don't really want to be an american either. We are the biggest trash can fillers!! I try to keep things simple by having two cars, one with about 20mpg and one with about 65mpg. I think if everyone had a 45-65mpg car(or whatever) we would have a better world. I think we are the biggest cause of global warming. I enjoyed Al Gore's movie about it. That was very shocking about the glacier on Mt. Kilamanjaro in Africa! In a few years or even months there will be none! But think of the good side, we are called the big brother country(by some people). And uhh... I think that it

Mouzer,

Somebody at my work recommended me to watch Al Gores documentury. He said it is very shocking.

You recommended as well?

Joe

Hey truth,

I am and always will be PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN. Regardless, of the decisions made for us and regardless of the perceptions the world holds of us.

Very brave men and women served this wonderful country and gave of themselves so that you today, could freely speak and share your concerns. My Father and Father-in-law, were very brave men, who served and there is nothing that could ever make me feel anything less than proud.

May God continue to bless America and watch over all of us. Especially our brave men and women who are currently serving.

Truth, I do understand some of your points. Personally, there is enough sludge thrown our way from other countries, it hurts me to my heart to hear one of our own not Proud to be an American. Just think of our brave young men and women, that is what America is truly about and that should help you to rekindle your pride. Focus on that, until they are all home safely and then we can discuss what a mess all of this is. That's what keeps me going.

God Bless America!!

Yes I recommend watching it. It is indeed shocking

Yes Al Gores movie is shocking, shocking that anyone could believe it and that anyone would pay to go see it. Anyone that wants to talk about someone doing half truths and lies, it is all right there.

Hey truth,

I am and always will be PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN. Regardless, of the decisions made for us and regardless of the perceptions the world holds of us.

Very brave men and women served this wonderful country and gave of themselves so that you today, could freely speak and share your concerns. My Father and Father-in-law, were very brave men, who served and there is nothing that could ever make me feel anything less than proud.

May God continue to bless America and watch over all of us. Especially our brave men and women who are currently serving.

Truth, I do understand some of your points. Personally, there is enough sludge thrown our way from other countries, it hurts me to my heart to hear one of our own not Proud to be an American. Just think of our brave young men and women, that is what America is truly about and that should help you to rekindle your pride. Focus on that, until they are all home safely and then we can discuss what a mess all of this is. That's what keeps me going.

God Bless America!!!!


It's always been my thought that god is far from blessing America, I think if there even is a god, the kind of Christian god Bush proclaims to believe in, then this Pres. Has made more than a sad attempt at showing the world how the 'godly' act and how 'christians' love. God is probably really really pissed off that Bush is even attaching his; holy, love not war, turn the other cheek, do unto others as you would have them do to you, name to this poor attempt at being a god filled administration. I believe that god is FAR from blessing America.

Also, don't get my wrong, I will ALWAYS support our military, but I have never once supported the reasons for this war so therefore I cannot support our troops being there. They are valuable, precious people; our military and they DO NOT deserve to die for a lie.

And this is my TRUTH.

I am proud of the ideals and values embodied in the U. S. Constitution. I am ashamed of our current President and his Administration's subversion of those ideals and values. I am ashamed that a little more than half of my fellow citizens voted for him AGAIN, even after his contempt for those values and ideals had been made plain.

I really don't think it was mainly about oil and money. I think he fell victim to fear and the desire for revenge, and appealed to these same fears and base desires in us all to generate public support for this foolish war and to get re-elected. To our everlasting disgrace as a people it worked all too well. Now, too late to avoid the grim consequences, two thirds of us realize it was a terrible mistake. Better late than never, but oh what a costly lesson. Since our children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren will bear most of the cost, I hope they learn the lesson well enough never to have to repeat it.

Just the latest evidence of this Administration's contempt for the rule of law...

Official Attacks Top Law Firms Over Detainees - New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/13/washington/13gitmo.html?hp&ex=1168750800&en=5fe52d89722035fe&ei=5094&partner=homepage)
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/13/opinion/13sat1.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Let me see, which American Lawyer that would have represented Hitler or SS troops, or those that did war crimes during WWII would have stayed in business.

An attorney is free to do what they believe is correct but then they have to live in the open market for what they do.

Inspection after Inspection show these are some of the best ran prisons anywhere, and American inmates in state prisons would be sueing for the rights these Prisioners of War.

To suggest that a POW should even have rights in court is beyond belief to start with.

America has forgotten what war is and sadly liberals will never let America actually fight a war to win.

I am ashamed, but not of America but of the people who have lost the will and lost the idea of what it takes to keep America free and strong.

Father Chuck - You touch my heart.

What some of you have pointed out for losing pride in this great country, to me, is politics. Yes, Politics that leads to greed, poor choices and lost lives. Politics is not the reason that I hold just gratitude and love in my heart for this great country. I feel so inept in my ability to express why I have such great pride, however, I found this incredible writing and wish to share it with you, as it says it far better than I ever could.

Please don't let what may be ugly destroy the great beauty that we are privilege to experience. We have the freedom and perhaps an obligation to freely speak of those things that need to change, need to be brought out in the light, but we should never ever hang our heads in shame. Always be proud to be an American. Hanging your head in shame, changes nothing, raising your voices to be heard, with great American pride, will forever make a difference.

Written by: Joyce Bowling
Written July 26th 1999
©November 11th 2006

Proud to be An American!

Patriotism…what does it mean? Webster defines it as; To love one's country. Dwayne Armstrong, a dear friend of mine and a World War II veteran states, "It means to be true, believe in your country and fellowman, and be willing to fight for your country!"

As I began writing, I realized that I must do some real soul searching to define and find these answers. I knew that loved my country, but I wanted to be able to say why?

I am clothed and am not trying to piece bits of rags together for clothing; I am not hungry and waiting in hopes that I might receive a small portion of mush or grain to quiet my rumbling stomach. I have a roof above me, a soft warm bed to sleep in, and clean drinking and bathing water, unlike many in other countries.

I can travel with ease, from beautiful Florida beaches to the beautiful Georgia plantations. I can walk around my own farm water my vegetables, fish from my pond, feed my goats, and spend free time with my family. I am not confined or held captive without hopes of ever seeing our beautiful world. I am not living under the leadership of a dictator telling me when, why, and where I may and may not go. I have the freedom to worship and speak, as well as the opportunity to be whatever I want to be.

Upon searching for the meaning of patriotism and what America means to me, I realized that our forefathers and veterans have given me all of these things that I have spoken of, and so much more. They have given each American their independence and freedom!

I must agree with Webster when he defined Patriotism: "To Love One's Country." I too believe that to love our country we must remain, dedicated, loyal, supportive, faithful and believe in it. We must respect our country and give to it, not take away. We are truly blessed to be American's and to have inherited such a wonderful land, that God created just us. I as one American want to give back as much as I have inherited and more! God bless America and our soldiers from the past and present!

I am proud of the ideals and values embodied in the U. S. Constitution. I am ashamed of our current President and his Administration's subversion of those ideals and values. Hello:

Ordinarydude made a very astute distinction that is so, so important in this discussion. Our government is NOT our country.

The Constitution itself is nothing more than an operations manual that lays out how the government works and checks up on itself. Tab A fits into slot B. It lays out the stuff that the government CAN do. That's no big deal. Lot's of countries have constitutions that outline the same stuff. That doesn't make 'em like us - not even close.

It is, however, the wonderfully crafted, comprehensive, farsighted, and simply written first 10 amendments called the Bill of Rights, that lay out the foundation of who we are as a country - who we are as a people.

Notice, that the Bill of Rights, as apposed to the rest of the Constitution, tells the government what it CAN'T do. And, what it CAN'T do is limit our freedom. That's different. Nobody has those things. Those are what make this country great.

Those freedoms, which are genuinely American, are the things that make me proud to BE an American. Those are the reasons I fought, and shed my blood. And they are the reasons I can sit here and type away at my computer without anybody caring what I say.

And, that used to be so, until Bush drove up. But he's a short term bump in the road. We'll get rid of him before he can screw things up more than he has. I have faith. We will recover from him, as we recovered from Nixon and Johnson and Vietnam, and the disaster that awaited us should we loose that war - which we did, and nothing happened.

We ARE better than him. HE is not who we are.

excon,
A very proud American

I may have been the first to read this thread, aside from its author. I did not respond immediately because I wanted to give the subject some thought. My major concern is this: What are you doing about it? Simply sitting in the comfort of your home or office and stating an opinion about how bad America is seems rather “cozy” to me. I am all for freedom of speech, but I am also a proponent of action. If something is wrong, it's all too easy to whine about it and do nothing about it. Stating that you “love the Iraqi people” and doing something to show your love are quite different things. For example, in my opinion, the worst victims of this war are the orphans in Iraq. Have you contacted any of the orphanages and offered to help? You cannot adopt, as the Iraqi government will not allow it, but what measures have you taken to help these poor people whom you love? Have you written to one soldier, who's fighting in a war that you oppose, to tell him or her that you hope he or she remains safe, that you're sorry that they're there, but you're grateful that they are there for you? That you wish them a speedy return to their home and family?

You question our government. Something that is your right to do, and in my opinion something that all of us should do on a regular basis. You are unhappy with Bush and his lies and deceit. Hooray, you should be. His lies are obvious, and some of his motives are quite clear to the naked eye, which a couple of respondents have pointed out. However, he's in office due to some quite controversial issues. Have you, as an American, taken any action to insure that voting fraud is less easy? Have you taken any steps to make sure that your voice is really heard when you vote? It's been proven by many sources that the voting machines now used widely are easy to manipulate. What have you done to make sure this never happens again?

As excon suggests, the checks and balances within our government have a way of “righting the ship” in time for the wrongs done by one or more corrupt or self-serving officials. He sights Nixon and Johnson, but let's not forget Hoover and McCarthy. In time, and with true freedom of speech things do change, and usually for the better.

Aside from the oil issues and Bush's personal involvement in the oil and money, am I the only person to see that Iraq is a centralized foothold in a region of the world that teaches hate towards us? If you have any questions about that, I'd suggest you read up a little on Daniel Pearl and figure out which doctrine is being taught to many of the youth in the region. The escalation of violence in Iraq isn't just Iraqi people, it's “insurgents” from all across the Middle East. What has happened is that those who hate us and our culture have focused on defeating us there. Not on our own soil. I'm not saying I agree with the war, and definitely not for the reasons that were given to us. But I am damn glad it's not in my backyard. I'd be naïve to think you or me are safe from other attacks here, but for now, the focus isn't here. And every day I wake up and not see planes crashing into buildings (or worse) I am thankful.

So… if you're unhappy. If you're embarrassed to be an American, what are you DOING to change it?

While I'm going to enter this one and upset half the crowd I guess. I too am tired of living in America, which is odd because I used to room with some liberal Democrats and I've got to tell you nothing made me love my country more. They were depressing, always whining, always saying America is evil, always talking about injustice, always running everybody else down, never open to new ideas, and filled with hate. Which was ironic because they claimed they were the exact opposite of everything they said they were.

Yet when my country got attacked on September 11, 2001 and I watched people turned into missles and people jumping from buildings, citizens not goverrnment official even, I watched a man in George Bush take the absolute step this country had been avoiding for decades and know that the middle east had to be dealt with. Some previous Presidents have danced around the issue or done a little over there but none has looked them head on like Bush has.

I don't agree with everything Bush does and I honestly think this war has not been fought like it could have. In fact I think it has gotton way out of control. But we can't even secure our own borders so how we are supposed to secure Iraqs I'm not sure. But this war has ramifications beyond Iraq and I wish the President would quit being politically correct and quit trying to please the tools over at the UN and just let the men and woman go all out assault, take no prisoners and let them go. We had hundreds of the enemy at a funeral and we couldn't kill because the UN said so. Screw them. This is war or at least it should be so why do we have to hold back? Are soldiers are like guard dogs on a leash. I say let them go and show the world who really is the true superpower. Enough of the PC stuff.

I also find it interesting that when a prisoner doesn't get a Koran then all hell breaks loose but our guys get tortured, decapataed and have had there genitals cut of and stuck in there mouth and that's okay. Selective outrage.

In Orlando about 2 month ago someone of peace and tolerance spit on one our soldiers at OIA. Naturally this made the 8th page of the B section of the paper because he was American and not a terrosist in need of civil rights. The soldier mind you, doing what his boss told him to do, not what he even necessarily wanted to do showed much more character than I would have. He did nothing and brushed it off. I can tell you that if some "peaceful" person spit on me I would beat the living sh!t of him until the cops came. Even then they might have to taser me.

I am tired of living in a country like this. I'm tired of being the taxpayer that supports relief and aid to everywhere in the world and yet being told I'm not giving enough. Quite honestly I'm giving too much. I'm tired of being told that when a problem breaks out somewhere the UN calls us to be the police but when we need them they do nothing. I'm tired of turning on the TV and watching the press root against us. I'm tired of hearing a bunch of untalented celebrities who live in mansions in Beverly Hills tell me they know what it's really like to be an average American. I hate being told that Bush is evil and Sadaam is a great guy. I hate being told that this war was for oil when I see no real decrease in my gas prices. I hate being told that Bush went to war only for WMD and not to topple a dicator that paid openly money to terrorists. I hate being told that Bush did this for daddy but nobody seems to have an answer why Clinton bombed Iraq. In fact when I bring that up 99% of the "well intuned" Americans don't even know Clinton bombed Iraq. I hate the fact that so many Americans are so comfortable here and don't really understand what goes on elsewhere in the world and don't understand that people hate us just because we live here and no matter how "nice" we are that isn't going to change. I hate that some many people in America and in Western civilized courntries have a system of government set up that allows them to enjoy freedoms others can't even dream about yet they feel so guilty about that they blame themselves as opposed to the dictators, warlords, or terrorists that are really the cause of this. I too hate America but it's not for the same reasons most people hate it.

One of my favorite websites is snopes.com. The identify urban legends or stories that seem so hard to believe and tell you if it's true or not. Well this link is a story about how some tool who runs the store and/or website discount mats wouldn't send anything to one of our soldiers.

Urban Legends Reference Pages: Discount Mat Rude Response to U.S. Soldier (http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/apo.asp)

That just adds to my rant about about what I hate about living in this country.

The funny thing is I was in Wisconsin in Novemeber driving from Michigan to Minneapolis. I wish they would have advertised there digust for their fellow Americans so I could stop in and say hello. In fact why don't you see all these people who own business advertise there digust with America. Hmmm Maybe it's because they realize they are the minority after all.

I did not respond to this thread right away either. I guess I never really thought about how I felt on the subject. I mean I knew that I was against the war, but supportive of our troops. I knew that I was tired of America being the bad guy, tired of Bush justifying a war he can't win, tired of the terrorist that can come into this country and kill innocent people, tired that those same terrorist can kill people somewhere else and tired of paying taxes and not seeing any of the benefits of those taxes coming my way.

But with all of that... I still love America. I would not want to live anywhere else. I can go to sleep at night knowing that there are brave men and women out there trying to keep peace so that I can raise a family, have a home, and love my husband without extreme worry. I thank god every day that I live here in a place where women are treated well, where I can walk down the street with my head held high proud of who I am, who I am going to become, and what I have achieved. I see America as a great country and one to be proud of.

I am so ashamed to be an American, to be living in this country and I'm sure I'm not the only one.... So like I said, at the moment I am ashamed to live here, to be an American. How do you feel about the country you live in? What does America represent to you? What should it represent to the world?


I disagree with solving things via violence so we agree on that. However, if I were as ashamed as you are I would pack up and leave. That way I'd get rid of the psychological agony due to embarrassment and shame that living in the United States and being identified as an American is causing you.

I think maybe you should think about moving to Canada. You would be better off. Just my opinion anyway.

(;

Canada , Japan, Australia, Great Britain are all Western civilized countries with modern technologies and ways of life. Why do people (from America) always assume they have to stay here. It's easier to get anywhere in the world than it's ever been.

When asked about the dying Bush said it is totally a volunteer army.

Sense this is a free country I am not going to knock what anybody else say on this post.

My opnion on the subject are if you don't like move out.
I have the utmost faith in this country. I have two brothers in iraq and will support my country to the very end.

It is when you lose faith in something when all hope is lost. If you lose all hope you might as well give up and die. I for one will never give up. I just hope that there are others like me.

I love knowing that I can have my own opnion and not get shoot for it.

There is a difference in supporting the troops. To supporting the country. There should be not anybody supporting a country that purposely targets other countries and interferes in there wars. The government, the government that runs the country. The people of the country puts there faith in the wrong place.

Faith is meant to be in God, not a country.

Just my opinion. I get annoyed at people who think they need to support and have faith in there country when there country is responsible for the deaths of so many people from other countries, but also responsible for so many deaths of their own people.

They do not care about your brothers, the government does not care. They are doing it for their own gain. Oil and money.

We need to support your brothers and anybody that go over their, but we do not have to support the country or the government.

It is good that you have your own opinion. Please do not take it that I am shooting you for it. I just have a different way of looking at it. Hope you do not take it personally.

Joe

I see it as.
Though I do not support the government in all its decisions I need to support the ones that are trying to keep my brothers safe.
Yes I would like my brothers home but as long as they are in harms way I will support the decisions of the government to keep them safe.

If this means that I need to support bushes new plan or whatever I will. Because I now that If the government quits supporting are troops my brothers are dead.
I look at how people the us left in vietnam and I do not want that to happen again

I think that it is important that you have faith in America and faith in our troops. But when I say faith in America I mean faith in the people that live here. Faith that they will use their democratic powers to change what they don't like about the current administration, faith in the support that they show their troops, faith that this war will end.

I see the country and the government as 2 different things. When the Towers in NYC were attacked our country was attacked. Not the government. Innocent people, people who reside in a country, who love their country, who rely on their government to keep them safe. It is not the country that is failing us... it is the government.

I am not only an American but the wife of an army soldier who just returned from Iraq. Although I agree with most of the points of view here and respect everyone's right to express them. We are forgetting the big picture here.
Regardless of what we think or do, Pres. Bush will not admit defeat and pull the troops out as he should. Even when hell freezes over will he admit that. And that's a pitty. After 9/11 the way he showed the country support and strength, he shoed he had potential to be a good president. With the Iraq contriversy, he's beyond redemption in the eyes of his "fellow americans). (a term which sends shivers down my spine becuae it reminds me of former Pres. Nixon)
The protests over Iraq also bring back bad memories for me because of how my fathr was treated after he returned from Vietnam. A war that too was greatly protested. Mass opinion of the war labeled our brave soldiers as baby burners and women killers. (I was 7 years old when he returned and still remember those hateful words wringing in my ears)
My point is regardless of how we feel about the war, or the presedient, the soldiers over there fighting should be our main focus. They are there out of duty to our country regardless of how we or any one else feels. Its not really the war they are fighting over there but serviing our country. Some even giving their lives for our country. The bravest of the brave in my opinion.
I believe, as well as a lot of otheres that you can support the soldiers without supporting the war. Let them know that what they're doing as the serve our country has a great impact on the people here waiting for their safe return
Send cards, emails, care packages. Let them know we love and think about them everyday.
I once sent my husband a box of cards and letters my kids' classes wrote them and pictures. The soldiers answered EVERY one of them and kept the pictures as a reminder of home. Trust me it really imapcts them when they know we support them.
Try not to think badly about the war but the welfare of the men fighting it. So, soldiers like my father come home not as criminals but as heroes.

Please also, please don't base your opinion of all americans based on our commander in chief.

If this means that I need to support bushes new plan or whatever I will. Because I now that If the government quits supporting are troops my brothers are dead.....

I look at how people the us left in vietnam and I do not want that to happen againHello horse:

Wow! If they quit supporting them and just left them, then they'd be dead. But, the idea is to quit supporting the WAR, and bring your brothers HOME. Seems to me, they'd be a LOT safer here.

And, what did we do to the people in Vietnam? WE did nothing, except give 58,000 of our young boys for NO REASON. When we left, the south lost the civil war, that they would have lost 10 years earlier, had we not butted in.

Yes, the northern victors put the southerners in jail. Ok, if the south (us) had won, don't you think WE would have put the northerners in jail? I think we would have.

Nonetheless, Vietnam is a peaceful place today. The disaster that awaited us, should we have lost that war (which we did), NEVER happened.

Tell Bush to send your brothers to kill Al Qaida in Afghanistan. That's a GOOD war. Those people ACTUALLY attacked us.

excon

Again I post a query to those reading and participating in this thread... Do you not see that the focus of terrorist groups and anti-Americans is now in the Middle East and not here? I'm not supporting the war there, or the reasons that we were given for it being valid. I just wonder if anyone else sees that the insurgents attacking our troops and civilians over there aren't just Iraqis. They come from Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen... there's more too, but you might get where I'm going with this. If our troops were not there, is it possible that these people might just get together to bring the fight to our soil as they did in 2000?

Just a thought and I wonder what others think along those lines.

Well I'm sure most of you heard about the big "peace" march on Washington this past weekend.

The march was lead by a group that calls itself "United for Peace and Justice." The march included several of the usual "America is always wrong" crowd including communist Jane Fonda and of course Sean Penn. The same Sean Penn that flew to Iraq before the war started and came back to tell us that Sadaam was a great guy and we were not educated enough to know it. I wonder if the brought his own camera crew like he did when he pretended to help Hurricane Katrina victims for the media publicity?

Anyway, The lovers of peace and people of great tolerance who claim to be of such high class that us southern rednecks (and anyone else from the north or east or west who dare point out their inconsistancies) can't truly grasp themselves awareness and total respect they have for human life showed up with the usual flag draped caskets and have now added boots on top for a nice touch. These lovers of peace and people who always claim to love American when called on their hate spray painted graffiti on the U.S. Capitol building. These lovers of peace who support the troops unless those troops are dead and having their genitals stuck in their mouth (which really did happen and I saw no outrage) or he is the commandor in chief, which ironically enough makes him one of the troops but we'll overlook that, spit on Iraqi war veterans who dared show up and use the freedom of speech they actually fought for. One Iraqi war veteran named Joshua Sparling lost part of his leg in the war, yet get this, still is proud to be an American, and really get this, still supports the war. While he was there and some kind, well respected, person of love and tolerance walked away from the main protest and spit at him. Naturally, cops were standing right there and did not arrest Mr. peacenick. Like I said before, I truly hate living in this country.

Again I post a query to those reading and participating in this thread... Do you not see that the focus of terrorist groups and anti-Americans is now in the Middle East and not here? I'm not supporting the war there, or the reasons that we were given for it being valid. I just wonder if anyone else sees that the insurgents attacking our troops and civilians over there aren't just Iraqis. They come from Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen.... there's more too, but you might get where I'm going with this. If our troops were not there, is it possible that these people might just get together to bring the fight to our soil as they did in 2000?

Just a thought and I wonder what others think along those lines.

It really makes no difference where they are. They will eventually make their way to the U.S. again anyway. Obviously, we can't stop them and their ideals are only becoming stronger because of this situation.

No, they aren't just Iraqis. What's more, these folks are not the dumb, backward-thinking religious zealots people think they are. Most of them are very highly educated religious zealots from respectable middle eastern (and other) families.

We are the “top dog”, and everyone wants a piece of the action and to knock us off the hill. Is Bush right or wrong? The answer is he is both right and wrong, as all presidents have been throughout history. Look at some of the wars and battles we have fought:

Revolutionary war, the war of 1812, Civil war, Mexican American war, Spanish American war, Indian wars, WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Libya, Desert 1, Panama, Balkans, Somalia, Afghanistan, Desert 2 – the list goes on and on, and will continue no matter who is president.

Americans really don’t care what the rest of the world thinks. We do what is best for our national interest. I think it’s best to fight the bad guys in another county and not ours; just as we have in most wars. Do the Canadians like it, probably not? Do the Iraqis like it, definitely not? However, I don’t have to worry much about my children playing outside, because the war is somewhere else.

It is clear to me the war is over there. As long as the war is over there, it is not over here. Don’t forget what Albert Einstein once said, “As long as there are men, there will be wars.”

Will we win the war? The answer is we already have!

I’m proud to be an American!!

I am proud to be an American.
I am ashamed that we went to Iraq.
I am equally ashamed that so many Americans are unfamiliar with how things work.

EVERYONE who voted to go to Iraq is equally responsible. The evidence was not there, so the vote should have been NO.

Here are the Yea's and the Nay's:
U.S. Senate: Legislation & Records Home > Votes > Roll Call Vote (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=2&vote=00237)

I’m proud to be an American!!!


Sure put a smile on my face. Standing proud with you !

It is clear to me the war is over there. As long as the war is over there, it is not over here......
Will we win the war? The answer is we already have!

I’m proud to be an American!!!Hello John:

I'm a proud American too. However, that's got nothing to do our ding dong president. He's an aberration, and I hope we'll survive him.

But John, my friend, this war is not over. It's just beginning. We've got a big mess that we've got to clean up. And, what you say is true. SO FAR, the war is over there (kinda), except for 9/11, the USS Cole, and some of our embassy's around the world. By the way, our embassies are "here" for all intents and purposes.

And, since we're IN the war, it's quite premature to say it's over there. It's also quite immature to think that it's going to STAY over there. We've only just begun to feel the sting of those terrorists. Hezbollah is HERE right now. Hezbollah is Iran. They're going to do something really really bad, to us RIGHT HERE, and pretty damn soon.

You think Bush is protecting us?? Bush is selling us down the river. Iran is NOT Iraq.

excon

That's my point, the war will never end... It never has! Only the names and places change, and it doesn't matter who is president. It is in our national interest to continue to fight all over the world, just as it always has throughout our history.

Whenever we think we are at peace, the war ends up on our shores, i.e. 1812, 1941, and 2001. Therefore, it is prudent to continue to project our forces and fight overseas at every opportunity.

You are right, we will eventually be hit by terrorists on our soil. We are the top dog, they want to hit us. But this will probably happen no matter what we do, or who is president. It might not even be Hezbollah or some other Islamic group, but someone homegrown like McVeigh.

It is pretty evident that Iran is not Iraq. Immature? So you advocate not fighting because we should be scarred of Hezbollah/Iran? My friend, I would go back in the military from retirement, in a heartbeat to fight Iran. And many of my former comrades in arms would do the same.

Mark my words, we will fight them sooner or later! It's in our national interest...

John, I am sorry. I meant to give you a disagree. No You are not top dog. No Your Country is not top dog. That is why Americans especially government are hated world wide because your country especially people like you are arrogant. Pompous. The only reason why there is a war is because the American government is money and power hungrey. What is there. Hmmm oil. If the american government were not so willing to go in and interfering in other countries wars there would be more peace. The american government would not be so much hated around the world, including Canada. So top dog my arse to you. It is all in your head and somebody will knock that right off you if you think that way all the time and live your life that way. It will come back and haunt you.

Hello again, John:

You miss my point, although I thought it was pretty clear. Iran IS, and has been our enemy since they took our embassy in 1979.

Everything Bush is saying about Iran TODAY is true. The problem is, that he said the same things about Iraq, and they WEREN'T true. We SHOULD believe him. But, because he lied before, nobody believes him now.

THAT is the failure of BUSH. Iran, our real enemy, is MUCH MUCH stronger, and we're MUCH MUCH weaker. That is a MONUMENTAL failure that could cause your children to grow up speaking Farsi.

excon

In fact, I have traveled and lived in many countries in the world proudly displaying the stars and strips... severed 24 years in the United States Air Force. Specifically, I have lived or traveled through Japan, Germany, Hong Kong, Belgium, Panama, England, Egypt, Kuwait, and served in Desert storm.

This country has liberated millions from tyranny. It's easy to live free in Canada bordered by the greatest and strongest nation ever conceived. Let's see if we can create a short-list of countries freed by the US:

Philippines, France, Italy, Grenada, Texas, Solomon Islands, Berlin - kept free from Soviets, Britain, Guam, Wake Island, Hong Kong, India, China, Midway Island, New Guinea, Taiwan, Should I just say most of Europe, most of North Africa, all of the pacific to include Australia, parts of Asia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Afghanistan, and now Iraq... the list goes on and on.

What other country can claim such achievements? And these are just military victories. In addition, we send billions of dollars to many countries and have conducted hundreds of humanitarian operations to include airlifts by the military. In 2004 we conducted five airlifts into Darfur.

These airlifts included 60,000 blankets and 1,260 rolls of plastic sheeting, which is sufficient to provide shelter for 79,380 folks. These shipments, including transportation costs, are totaled $1,065,500. Other airlifts in addition to the $1,941,150 in relief supplies that arrived in Nyala between June 5, 2004 and June 14, 2004 totaled airlifted contribution of $3,006,650 to Darfur.

There is no end to the list of countries we have helped. I'm sorry you’re jealous! But personally, I really don't care what you think about us. I have received many thanks from folks in the countries I have visited while in uniform.

Bottom line: The United States is the greatest country ever conceived! We will continue to project our power both economic and military as is in our national interest.

excon:

I agree with you in part. Yes, Iran did turn out to be the country we should have confronted militarily. Of course this is looking retrospectively. At the time we went into Iraq, everyone thought they possessed WMD and where the greater threat. Not only did both parties of the US congress agree, but so did our other allies to include Canada and Britain.

However, I do not agree that we are weaker at least not militarily. Maybe politically...

excon:

Disagree! Those countries you site were conquerors. We are and have been liberators.

It's easy to live free in Canada bordered by the greatest and strongest nation ever conceived. Actually it isn't that much fun for us since some of your violent criminals come and hide out here. It is fun when we travel overseas and, when asked if we are american or canadian, we reply gladly "Canadian" and their smiles light up their faces.



Let's see if we can create a short-list of countries freed by the US: ...
Hong Kong Really? I don't think so. (http://mqup.mcgill.ca/book.php?bookid=2047)


all of the pacific to include Australia
I think a lot of aussies would love to hear how the yanks 'freed' them.


But personally, I really don't care what you think about us. I have received many thanks from folks in the countries I have visited while in uniform. That's the arrogance we all know and love! Being in uniform surrounded by your army buddies and weapons will indeed give you a different response than backpacking through Europe with the US flag on your back.

Excon:

Disagree! Those countries you site were conquerors. We are and have been liberators.Hello again, john:

Tell that to the Iraqi's, the Vietnamese, the Somoli's, the Kurds, the Cubans, and on and on...

That is exactly the problem with you Bushies. You don't quite understand English. What you call liberation, is really occupation. What you call pre-emptive invasion, IS really conquering a nation. What you call winning is, in the real world, losing.

excon

History lesson:

Let's analyze. British forces in Hong Kong surrendered to the Japanese on Dec 24, 1941. The United States won the war with a Japanese surrender September 1945. Britain took back Hong Kong following the Japanese surrender.

You wouldn't admit the United States was the catalysis for Hong Kong being free?

Most historians agree, American victories at the battle of the Coral Sea and Midway prevented or should I say thwarted Japanese plans to invade Australia.

Obviously, Australian and British Navy's helped. But it was only the United States naval power in the pacific that directly prevented an attack by the Japanese on Australia and resulted in the surrender of Japan.

I would also like to dispute what Jesushelper76 wrote as follows:

The war of 1812 the Americans lost. Thank Goodness or Canada would not be the place it is now.

The United States won the war of 1812 with a British surrender following the battle of New Orleans: Jackson decisively defeated the British at the Battle of New Orleans on January 8, 1815 with over 2000 British casualties and fewer than 100 American losses. It was hailed as a great victory.

Actually it isn't that much fun for us since some of your violent criminals come and hide out here. It is fun when we travel overseas and, when asked if we are american or canadian, we reply gladly "Canadian" and their smiles light up their faces.

Really? I don't think so. (http://mqup.mcgill.ca/book.php?bookid=2047)

I think a lot of aussies would love to hear how the yanks 'freed' them.

That's the arrogance we all know and love! Being in uniform surrounded by your army buddies and weapons will indeed give you a different response than backpacking through Europe with the US flag on your back.

Hi NeedKarma,

I am actually and honestly asking these questions to learn. I really don't understand your above statement. How is John being arrogant when he was just relaying how he was being treated while in uniform. How is that being arrogant? Also, are you inferring that we would be treated in a negative manner, if we were backpacking through Europe, solely because we are American?

NK, you mean to tell me we are that hated, that when they discover you are Canadian, you are treated better than if you were American?? Again, asking to acquire knowledge.

John, - I take it you were in the military. Thank you so very much! John, I do believe we are a great country, but it does put one off to say we are the greatest. I believe we are a great Country, one of many great countries. Would you not agree with that?

If I don't belong on this thread, please, just let me know, I will not take it personal. I am trying to learn and sadly there seems to be such hostility from those I would have never anticpated it from. Lastly, if I am correct, John, served this great country, and as far as I am concerned, I not only trust and value his perspective, I respect it and would like others, who may not agree with him, to at least respect him. I would not say we were the greatest country though. I do believe we are one of many.

I do embrace and respect the difference in other countries and cultures. I find it so dishearting that others can not do the same for us.

You do not know your history bud. Nice try but you need to go back to school and learn your history. You think you won everything, when you have not. You are an example american that most people around the world would love to see on their soil so they can teach you a true lesson that you would not forget. Knock you down a few britches and knock that huge chip and arrogance and pompous attitude off your shoulders. You are lucky you were not killed. I dare you to go to many countries telling them your American and you will be a prisoner, and rightfully so for causing so much uproar, death and mayhem. I am holding you responsible for all the deaths around the world. You are a murderer, you are a arse hole and you are exactly like Bush. You are delusional and you need some real help.

As far as the states being successful in that war your wrong. How do you call not being able to invade canada as successful. That was the point of the war for america. America declared war because they wanted to take over land and occupy. They were unsuccessful.

I have obviously stepped into a thread I should have never have entered. This is, admittedly way above my level.

I will not wait to ask to leave, I will leave on my own, because I am just not understanding.

Allheart

Allheart, Please do not feel that way. If you do not understand, why not just ask? I hope you read my message. Please do not take me the wrong way, I tried to explain it. Hope you get back to me.

Joe,

I will say in public, what I tell you in private. I just adore you and you are one of the kindess most caring and loving individuals I have ever had the pleasure to meet and I proudly call you my friend.

I do just get all twisted up with subjects such as this. I am not deep in knowledge as all of you are, but I am deep in love for my country, my military and those countries that have stood by us as our friends.

You know that all of this dislike or shall I say hatred for Americans is new to me, and hard to digest.

But I send you a big hug anyway {... } Hope you are feeling better.

I admire, respect and adore the love you have for your country.

Allheart,

I did not mean to upset you and it hurts my heart to think that that is what I did to you because I do not mean this personally towards you or anybody else. It is just an attitude that John has that we Canadians do not like that much. It is not so much a hatred towards americans but a dislike for arrogance. We tend to be more humble and peaceful and we do not like it when somebody, especially American John come out and say that he and his government has every right to invade and fight and get involved in any war they want. Then to top it off say they won wars they never did. Americans tried to invade canada for land in 1812 and they lost. If they did not lose, then Canada would be part of the states right now, but we are not.

So know that I love you as a Friend, and it hurts my heart to see you react this way, but I am trying to share with you why I and others might feel the way we do. It is not towards you but towards Johns attitude that American has the right to invade any country and start strife in any Country they feel like it, that makes me angry.

Joe

In response to Jesushelper76:

I thought this site was for quality debate, why do you have to get personal. Did I attack you personally? Seems to me you woke up on the wrong side of the rock. It has become fairly obvious to me, you only want to hear from folks with your opinion... that's a fair and balanced debate.

I have been to many countries out of uniform, and lived in several. I have always been respectful to all folks while in their country, and have never had any problems with folks' attitude towards the United States. In fact, most folks thank us for all the good we do around the world.

Unfortunately, you have taken this debate to an unhealthy level. You are holding me responsible for all the deaths around the world. I'm falling over laughing!!

The war of 1812 was clearly an American victory. I don't know what history books you have read. The war was fought against the British. Trade was the real issue. Yes, Canada was a minor issue, a mere foot note in history!!

It is not personal. You john are the one that said that you and america has every right to bring your arms in any country, to start and interfere in any countries war. How you are superiour to every other country, how you are the best country, how you are the biggest power and have every right to fight a war in any country you want.

As far as 1812 being an american success, Nope. If it was we would be calling parts of Canada, America. The united states was unsuccessful in advancing on Canadian soil. So no you did not win the war.

At the time Canada was a British territory so to say that Canada was a minor issue your wrong there too.

I am saying your war like attitude. Just like Bush is what got your country in the mess it is in now. If you did not go around to all the different countries acting like King _____, then you would not have the attacks on american soil you have had.

This is a very healthy debate. Whether you like it or not is not really a concern for me. It is not personal at all. It is your attitude, it is your thoughts that it is your countries right to invade and bring up arms on any country that kills people, so yes you are responsible just like Bush is responsible for all the deaths on American soil of his own people and Americans abroad, and innocent people from all the other countries you decided to go to war with.


Joe

Hi John,

How long did you serve? I am so glad to hear that as an American you were met with positive feedback. Hurts me to my heart, as well as confuses me to know otherwise.

Joe,

My good friend.

I do not believe we go around the world acting like King anything. To me, we provide aide and safety to those who are in desperate need of it.

There is no way, shape or form, that any American is responsible for the lives lost on the USS Cole, and 9/11. Those actions, were, to me, just shear unbased hatered.

I am letting you know that is the perception that many people have about the american government. That many different nationalities were lost in 9/11 and I do believe if The american government was not so trigger happy in other peoples wars that hatred would not be there and there would have been no attack on american soil, but that is just my opinion.

I told myself to stay out of this thread after my first couple of post.
But I have to make a couple of points and then I will try and stay out of it.

John 1865 we are nowhere near the top of the food chain.
We are no where near where we need to be military wise. We have so many open holes in this country and with all or military else where we are open to an attack anytime.

Correct me if I am wrong but the war of 1812 was over before the battle of new orleans was fought.

I will go back to one thing I have said before. We are right in some of are decsicions but we need to be willing to admit when are thinking is wrong.

Iran has been a problem and will continur to be a problem.
How ever we do not need to jump into it blind we need a good stratgy before we go in there.
We also need the support of a lot more countries then we did before we entered Iraq.

If you look back we did not have the full support of the UN and we really needed it rather then try and go it alone.

We are streached to thin to put up too much of an offense If the untied states is attacked.

I agree with all those saying that America needs to stay out of other countries affairs. I for one am one American who is tired of paying over half of what he makes to give food, health care, protection and other aid to countries and people all around this planet who don't seem to give a damn or ever want to pay us back, or worse yet never want to do anything for themselves or set up real governments. For the love of God, when we went to war in Afghanistan we actually had to drop food and water to the citizens, much which was taken by the Taliban militias. For love of all that is PC, I would love to know what other country would fight a war like this? And then of course you had the New York Times claiming that wasn't enough and immediately calling for us to pull out!

So here's my idea that will never work in the real world. But it's this, if the rest of the world supposedly hates us like CNN and the NYT keep repeating how about we just cut off all aid everywhere! That way my fellow Americans can receive it or my personal choice, my taxes decrease significantly. The world wins and we win.

Wow, Chuff. I have to say well said.

My thought as well is if your unable to take care of your own, how can you expect take care care of anybody else elsewhere. Well that is what has been happening.

I say that is the best solution ever thought of. Stop spending billions of dollars in wars that have nothing to do with your country. Stop aid and let them fend for themselves. They will eventually become a better people because of it and Americans, and as well as Canadians will prosper and be able to take care of its people in a better way.

Joe

I agree with all those saying that America needs to stay out of other countries affairs. I for one am one American who is tired of paying over half of what he makes to give food, health care, protection and other aid to countries and people all around this planet who don't seem to give a damn or ever want to pay us back, or worse yet never want to do anything for themselves or set up real governments. For the love of God, when we went to war in Afghanistan we actually had to drop food and water to the citizens, much which was taken by the Taliban militias. For love of all that is PC, I would love to know what other country would fight a war like this? And then of course you had the New York Times claiming that wasn't enough and immediately calling for us to pull out!

So here's my idea that will never work in the real world. But it's this, if the rest of the world supposedly hates us like CNN and the NYT keep repeating how about we just cut off all aid everywhere! That way my fellow Americans can receive it or my personal choice, my taxes decrease significantly. The world wins and we win.


Sorry Chuff, had to spread it... grrrr

With you 100%. Sure would be nice if those so filled with hatred for us, would be kind enough to express that and decline taking our aid. Seems only right. Either you hate us or you don't. Make up your mind. Sure boils my blood. Would have much rather seen that same aid go to those Americans in New Orleans. Now that would have been money well spent !

The purpose of foreign aid is to gain political leverage.

What did we gain by this war in Iraq? Let's see oil, more debt for the US citizens, more of a prsentense in the Middle East, where we are not welcome, more of nothing that help the people in this country.

When will the government start thinking about the people in the US who is paying for this needlees war.

There are people in this country who have nothing also, homeless, children who wonder were the next meal is coming from.

What ever happen to the US that are forefathers started, to help thy fellow man. It seem the only people in the US who still have the values needed to be free and prosper here arethe Amish, true family values, and always help the friends and family.

The government most start thinging about the people not what is happening around the world. We cannot be the worlds police force anymore.

That;s my opinion.

Following retiring from the military more than 4-years ago, I managed a large trucking company -- home delivery, customer service, and warehouse - driver and helper in the truck. No other qualifications for the helper other than to show up on time and work. My recruiting efforts were primarily to the less advantaged folks; even homeless.

Let me tell you it was extremely difficult to find folks that wanted to work. Homelessness is a choice, as all of us have choices in a democracy vice socialism. Now I'm not saying there aren’t people out there needing help, but there are plenty of jobs for these folks if they want to work.

Our country has plenty of money to fight Iraq and Iran without sacrificing our standard of living. We must take the battle to the enemy, regardless of what other countries think. It is delusional to think there will ever be peace; when has the world ever had true peace? The answer is it never has!

I advocate a first strike on Iran now while we have surprise and troops positioned. This will minimize our casualties. I don't think we should occupy Iran, just remove its government, destroy its military capability, WMD etc, and then leave. Believe me, there are already plans developed to do just this. Will Bush pull the trigger? I hope so...

Our country has plenty of money to fight Iraq and Iran without sacrificing our standard of living. Maybe not your personal standard of living today but I can assure you that your kids and grandkids and their children will pay. You got to pay the piper sometime. Any irresponsible president can run up the country's debt when they have no concern for the future.

The purpose of foreign aid is to gain political leverage.

Of course it is. That is my point. It is popular for the cnn and the New York times with there agendas to find the couple people that hate America elsewhere or an celebrity here and say that because people hate us it must somehow be our fault. So instead of trying to be the world police for the UN then get nothing in return, I say why not just pull out of the UN and give me my money back. Then in the future when another country gets attacked and they call us we can just say "well we tried to be the good guys but you didn't want us so I guess you have to suffer on your own now."

Our country has plenty of money to fight Iraq and Iran without sacrificing our standard of living. Hello again, John:

Actually, we don't. We do have credit, though, and that's how Bush has been financing the war. Since he drove up, the surplus he was left with has turned into the biggest deficit the country has ever had. Bush just asked for another quarter of a trillion $$ for both wars.

Your children and your grandchildren are stuck with this debt.

Uhhh, by the way. Who do you think is buying up our debt with all the dollars we spend with them? It's your favorite people, the Chinese. I repeat, Bush is selling us down the river.

excon

Homelessness is a choice, as all of us have choices in a democracy vice socialism.

Nope, most of the time it is not. The majority of the homless people on the streets today are because of mental illness and cuts that our government has made within the medical field. Homelessness is rarely a choice anymore.

OUr government has made cuts in the medical community so that the "homeless" person does not have access to proper psychiatric care and shelter.

Not to go back a page or 2, but I brought out my history book that plainly states that American's declared war on Britain in The War of 1812. Although we did invade Canada through Detroit. America soon had to retreat back to Detroit and in August surrendered the fort there. Other invasion efforts also failed. However, the Americans did sign a peace treaty with Britain several weeks before the Battle of New Orleans.

To quote my text:

"The War of 1812, a war that was settled finally in 1814 on terms at least mildly favorable to the United States."

So, in fact it seems that the war was not with Canada, but with the British. The war was neither won nor lost, but settled.

Now, since I don't know anything more about Needless Wars unless they are in one of my texts :o, I will graciously bow out.

I am so ashamed to be an American, to be living in this country and I'm sure I'm not the only one. My point is a this, said a few ways:

Regardless of what your political situation in, there is one very important fact no one can deny, Pres. Bush said we went into Iraq because there were weapons of mass destruction. We then found out and the Pres. acknowledged that there were no WMDs, that there was misinformation. Looking through history it seems we should all learn something, one can not just trust what an informant/Comm./Gen./Sec. of Def. when you are waging war on a country. One HAS to know the facts and there were ways for out Pres. to know the facts, but he obviously didn't dig that deep. We went into Iraq on a lie. Why can't we see that that is a problem. That there isn't anything wrong with saying we were wrong and now we are going to fix it. But that is not what happened.

Why does America go running around telling other Diplomats what they can and can't do, what they can and can't have? Who made us the higher power? Now the Pres. says we are there to bring Democracy to Iraq. Ok, well, did this country ask to change their current system to one that we model today? Why do we think that we had the right to go in there and change their lives COMPLETELY because Pres. Bush thinks it a good thing to give them this so called "gift". We go telling Iran they can not have a nuclear plant, but we are allowed to manufacture nuclear weapons. What makes us think that we know how to keep dangerous or deadly things under proper control? Seems the America that has been created appears to think that we are smart than everyone else. And that, obviously is not true, for many reasons. Interesting how Rices and Bush keep saying that the Iraqis have to get their military together so that they can take control and our troops can leave. Funny how we bring this amazing shift in on their economy, in their politics and their military.

There was violence in Iraq WAY before we got there. If we pull our troops out now there won't be an increase in violence. RIGHT NOW, THIS time has proven that the country they live in today is FAR more avalanched by violence than it has been in a very very long time. There was violence before our troops got there, there was Saddam, our troops invaded Iraq and not only did the violence stay the same, it has escalated. Our troops pull out and there will still be violence. Our troops leave, and there will still be violence. Our troops continue to stay and go door to door "embedded" into the Iraqi military, the doors they open will hold more violence and more danger, the Iraqi people did not ask for this and they don't want us there.

Pres. Bush did not make a new plan, or a new strategy or anything else. We are going to us more military force, ok, so let's just keep increasing our troops, from 4 years ago to today, how many more of our military is there? It didn't work the first time, it didn't work the second time they tried implementing a new plan and here we go again, adding more troops. I thought the definition for insane was 'very foolish', ex. "Pres. Bush has taken insane measures concerning this war in/with Iraq."

Sadly our troops are continuing to die. And while I can not than them enough for ensuring out security and at first, fighting for a cause. They have no been left there, with a so called "non opened time", so when will the get to come home? Seems no one can answer that. I care about our troops and their families, I care about the Iraqi people, the things and people they love and care about. I care that America has allies, I care about the need for us to back down and stop trying to control the world. To me it's like 2 people in a bad relationship, one may really not like something about the other, but eventually it's realized by someone, the person that has a mature thought and they start trying to only change themselves because no one can make anyone change if they don't want to. In hand with that, when the mature person continues to work on themselves the other person starts feeling like things are changing, that something good is going on and then they can work on themselves together. That's what America needs to do, that is what Bush needs to do, be more mature in thought.

So like I said, at the moment I am ashamed to live here, to be an American.

How do you feel about the country you live in? What does America represent to you? What should it represent to the world?
What was the War called when George Bush Sr. was president ?

I am so ashamed to be an American, to be living in this country

There’s nothing keeping you here. If you feel that that life in America is so unjust, you are free to leave.


Regardless of what your political situation in, there is one very important fact no one can deny, Pres. Bush said we went into Iraq because there were weapons of mass destruction.

Actually when Bush addressed the UN in September 2002, he outlined a whole bunch of reasons that Iraq was a danger.

1)Non-compliance with 17sepparate UNSC resolutions.
2)Attempted development of WMDs.
3)Refusal to prove the disarmament of existing WMDs.
4)Repression of the Iraqi people.
5)Violations of human rights
6)Support for international terrorism, including sheltering of international terrorists, establishment of terrorist training camps, and financial support of terrorism.
7)Refusal to account for Gulf War POWs and MIAs.
8)Refusal to return stolen Kuwaiti property, primarily military equipment.
9)Efforts to circumvent economic sanctions and impede the oil-for-food program

So while it is true that President Bush mentioned Saddam developing WMDs as one of his reasons, it was NOT the only reason.


One HAS to know the facts and there were ways for out Pres. To know the facts, but he obviously didn't dig that deep.

If Bush made a “mistake” then so did the rest of the world. The entire UN membership was in agreement that Saddam was in violation of WMD-related resolutions. Hans Blix reported as much to the UN on a number of occasions. Even the French, Germans and Russians, who were against the war, agreed with the intelligence reports about Saddam having WMDs.


Why does America go running around telling other Diplomats what they can and can't do, what they can and can't have? Who made us the higher power?

Actually, the international community did. Every time some third world fleabag of a country has domestic unrest, they call the USA. Genocide in Darfur? Call the USA. War in Bosnia? America will handle it. China is rattling its sabre again? Get the President to take care of it. We are the world's police force because the world made us their police force.


Ok, well, did this country ask to change their current system to one that we model today?

They didn’t change to our system. They created their own parliamentary system that doesn’t even resemble our system. It’s closer to the British system. And it was the IRAQI PEOPLE who created that system. 80% of eligible people in the country voted for this system, which leads me to believe that they did indeed “ask to change their current system”.


Why do we think that we had the right to go in there and change their lives COMPLETELY because Pres. Bush thinks it a good thing to give them this so called "gift".

Are you saying it isn’t a gift? Are you saying that they were better off under Saddam Hussein’s terror regime?

Sorry to have to inform you of this, truth, but there is such a thing as good and evil. The dictatorship of Saddam Hussein was not just another ‘lifestyle choice”. It was evil. And democracy is good. To say that democracy isn’t a “gift” is to say that all systems are basically the same, which is a form of moral equivalence. You have had your head filled with the idea that all choices are morally equal, and there is nothing better or worse about any system as compared to any other.


We go telling Iran they can not have a nuclear plant, but we are allowed to manufacture nuclear weapons. What makes us think that we know how to keep dangerous or deadly things under proper control?

How about the fact that we have managed to do so for the past 70 years. How about the fact that President Ahmadinejad of Iran has actually threatened to USE THOSE NUCLEAR WEAPONS AGAINST HIS ENEMIES. That is the difference between us and them. We don’t use our nukes. Iran will.


Seems the America that has been created appears to think that we are smart than everyone else.

Not smarter. Just more moral. And yes, I am making a value judgment.


And that, obviously is not true, for many reasons. Interesting how Rices and Bush keep saying that the Iraqis have to get their military together so that they can take control and our troops can leave. Funny how we bring this amazing shift in on their economy, in their politics and their military.

Yes, there has been a shift in their economy… they have gone from 60% unemployment to 25% unemployment in 4 years, average salaries are up, more jobs are being created, and energy production is up. GDP of the country has risen steadily over the past several years. Exactly which part of this do you object to?

Yes, there have been changes in their political system… the Iraqi people have elected their own government, and they chose to make it a parliamentary democracy with a constitution that spells out the responsibilities of the government. All factions of Iraqi society are represented in the government in accordance to their share of the population and the vote. Exactly which part of this do you object to?

Yes, there have been changes in their military. The Iraqi military has received training up to US standards, which are some of the highest standards of any military in the world. Their officers are now trained to lead soldiers, something that was lacking in the Iraqi military under Saddam. The soldiers themselves are of a higher caliber. They are better equipped than they were under Saddam. And they are more dedicated than they were under Saddam. Exactly which part of this do you object to?


There was violence in Iraq WAY before we got there. If we pull our troops out now there won't be an increase in violence.

Really? So if we are not the cause of the violence, why should we leave? Things are no worse off than before we got there, according to your argument. And if we are the cause of the violence and things are worse since we got there, then we dare not leave until the problem has been fixed, since we are responsible for having caused it. So why pull out?


Pres. Bush did not make a new plan, or a new strategy or anything else.

Maybe that’s because we haven’t actually tried the FIRST plan yet… actually fighting the terrorists… hunting them down and killing them without regard to ‘rules of engagement’ that the enemy doesn’t abide by or political correctness that the enemy is not concerned with. If we actually FOUGHT the terrorists instead of trying to play the “hearts-and-minds” game, the situation in Iraq could be cleared up in MONTHS.


Sadly our troops are continuing to die. And while I can not than them enough for ensuring out security and at first, fighting for a cause. They have no been left there, with a so called "non opened time", so when will the get to come home? Seems no one can answer that.

Sure we can. The troops get to come home either when their tour is done or when the JOB is done. There isn’t supposed to be a time limit. Does your job have a time limit? Or do you go to work every day,” with no end in sight” and no idea when the job will be “over”? The job of the soldier is 24-7-365, and missions and wars don’t have time-limits. The enemy hasn’t said “We’ll stop fighting next Tuesday at 4pm.” Why should our troops have a time-limit when the enemy does not?


I care about our troops and their families, I care about the Iraqi people, the things and people they love and care about. I care that America has allies, I care about the need for us to back down and stop trying to control the world.

Very pretty words. The problem is that in addition to allies, America has enemies. Those enemies wish to destroy us. We spent 40 years ignoring those enemies and not fighting them, and those enemies grew more bold… until one early September morning in 2001 they flew airplanes into buildings and killed 3,000 of our people. Making nice to our allies won’t stop the next attack. Making nice to our enemies won’t stop the next attack. RETREATING AND SURRENDERING won’t stop the next attack.


So like I said, at the moment I am ashamed to live here, to be an American.

How do you feel about the country you live in? What does America represent to you? What should it represent to the world?

I am proud to live in a country that stands up to its enemies instead of cowering in a hole and hoping that they will stop hating us. I am proud to be a citizen of the most powerful country in the world that does not lie down for its enemies. I am proud to live in a country that stands up for human rights against mass-murdering dictators. I am proud to support a President who freed FIFTY MILLION PEOPLE from tyrannical regimes simply because it was the right thing to do. I am proud of a President who stands up for what is morally good and right against what is morally bad and evil without trying to apologize for the evils behaviors of others. I am proud to be part of a nation that has the highest quality of life in the world and didn’t have to conquer any other countries to sustain that wealth. I am proud of a nation that stands up against bullies and stands up for the little guy.

What I’m wondering is why you AREN’T proud of that?

Elliot

Actually when Bush addressed the UN in September 2002, he outlined a whole bunch of reasons that Iraq was a danger.

Ah, someone mentioned the truth that trumps all... and I'm not surprised at who mentioned it and how long it took. I'm just wondering where the rest of you were during the lead-up to this war, because not once did I ever get the impression the only reason "we went into Iraq (was) because there were weapons of mass destruction".

And I might add, the reasons Elliot listed were the same reasons used by the previous congress and administration to justify regime change in Iraq, and the same violations listed by the UN for years. Regardless of how the war is going now, I for one am proud that our nation - along with every other country that contributed - finally said no to a man that gave the world the finger for more than a dozen years. Our nation - with full consent of the congress and approval of the majority of our citizens -finally had the resolve to confront this genocidal dictator.


Why does America go running around telling other Diplomats what they can and can't do, what they can and can't have? Who made us the higher power?

Think Ghostbusters, "who ya gonna call"? And who is it they call? Who is running around telling us we need to do more about HIV, we need to contribute more here, more there, more everywhere? Who are these same people demanding our pullout from Iraq, demanding we mind our own business - perfectly willing to sit back and watch the chaos unfold when we leave Iraq prematurely - demanding we intervene in Darfur?


If we pull our troops out now there won't be an increase in violence.

With all due respect, if you believe that you're very naïve.


I care about our troops and their families, I care about the Iraqi people, the things and people they love and care about.

I believe with the exception of the Jihadists, most of us feel the same.


In hand with that, when the mature person continues to work on themselves the other person starts feeling like things are changing, that something good is going on and then they can work on themselves together. That's what America needs to do, that is what Bush needs to do, be more mature in thought.

I think most of us realize that if the Iraqis don't step up there will be a time you have to say no more, but I believe the tide is turning and the Iraqi people are getting fed up with the Jihadists in their midst. I refer you to an article tomder posted yesterday, Al Qaeda's new enemy -- Iraqis (http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-op-kagan10jun10,0,1196899.story?coll=la-opinion-center). I don't find the situation hopeless, I believe it was a noble cause, and I know there is more to the story than what we get from the left and the media.


So like I said, at the moment I am ashamed to live here, to be an American.

Then what's keeping you here? I have to admit though I am ashamed of America but I'm sure it isn't for the same reasons. I'm ashamed that we have so many people so enraged with a few men, generally Bush, Cheney, Rove, that facts don't matter. I'm ashamed we have a media, a party (Democrats), and an ideology (liberalism) so invested in failure. I'm ashamed that a culture of political correctness, etc. has led to some ridiculous need for self-flagellation.


How do you feel about the country you live in? What does America represent to you? What should it represent to the world?

I love my country and I'd like to have it back. If nobody else is going to stand up and take the lead then America needs to.

Steve,

I tried to rate you but the system wouldn't let me. Good response. "Head, meet Nail."

Elliot

I tried to rate you but the system wouldn't let me. Good response. "Head, meet Nail."

Ditto that to you. I guess we haven't spread enough reputation around :)

I look threw this site more and more. And I see people like the one who posted this. If you don't want to be an American than I'll chip in part to and we will send you out of here. Im not a Im a democrat and I don't approve of the choices that President bush as made. But as I posted in another post on this site a little earlyier. I believe America is just to be in Iraq and Afgan... We are a world superpower. Its our duty to help other people in need. Iraqies lived under a leader who killed them in unthinkable ways. And the crap about you saying Iraqies do not want us there. Please! Ive never heard a bigger load of it.I think that you need to looking to the war in Iraq a little more than just what you see on NBC or CNN buddy. America has done pretty good in this war I think so far. We have been over there since 2003 and around what 3600 brave souls have died but that's not an alarming number for a war that has been going on thus long. But under any president we get we are always going to have people like you. That hate the president call him everyname in the book and want him impeached. But as I said before if you want out of this country feel free to leave. Im sure not to many Americans are going to care with that attitude that you have.

Well I'm doing a report over the Holocast and reading the book called "night". I need some help on what I should write. Note it's a "powerpoint".

Well im doing a report over the Holocast and reading the book called "night". I need some help on what i should write. Note its a "powerpoint".

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/powerpoint/FX100648951033.aspx?CTT=96&Origin=CL100626991033


I'm unclear if your doing a presentation based on Elie Wiesel's book "Night," or about the Holocaust in general?

This should help you with Wiesel's book:

Night Book Notes Summary by Elie Wiesel (http://www.bookrags.com/notes/nit/)



As a primer concerning the Holocaust:

I suggest you start by studying the politics of Germany in the 1930's, Jews in German society, eventual deportations, and with special focus on "Kristallnacht."




Bobby

I'll just repeat part of the Speech by French President Sarkozy before Congress 2 months ago; given that so many people have answered your question about Iraq I'll skip that.

From the very beginning, the American dream meant putting into practice the dreams of the Old World.
From the very beginning, the American dream meant proving to all mankind that freedom, justice, human rights and democracy were no utopia but were rather the most realistic policy there is and the most likely to improve the fate of every person.

America did not tell the millions of men and women who came from every country in the world and who—with their hands, their intelligence and their heart—built the greatest nation in the world: "Come, and everything will be given to you." She said: "Come, and the only limits to what you'll be able to achieve will be your own courage and your own talent." America embodies this extraordinary ability to grant every person a second chance.
Here, both the humblest and most illustrious citizens alike know that nothing is owed to them and that everything has to be earned. That's what constitutes the moral value of America. America did not teach men the idea of freedom; she taught them how to practice it. And she fought for this freedom whenever she felt it to be threatened somewhere in the world. It was by watching America grow that men and women understood that freedom was possible.
What made America great was her ability to transform her own dream into hope for all mankind.


Together we must fight against terrorism. On September 11, 2001, all of France—petrified with horror—rallied to the side of the American people. The front-page headline of one of our major dailies read: "We are all American." And on that day, when you were mourning for so many dead, never had America appeared to us as so great, so dignified, so strong. The terrorists had thought they would weaken you. They made you greater. The entire world felt admiration for the courage of the American people.

My approach is purely pragmatic. Having learned from history, I want the Europeans, in the years to come, to have the means to shoulder a growing share of their defense. Who could blame the United States for ensuring its own security?

Now why would you be embarrassed about being an American?

DC His speech should be read by every American as well as Tony Blair's of Nov 16,2004

Tony Blair's Annual Speech on Foreign Policy Given at the Lord <b style="color:white;background-color:#990099">Mayor's</b> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Banquet</b> in <b style="color:black;background-color:#a0ffff">London</b> (http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:3mJXaTDIXkAJ:se2.isn.ch/serviceengine/FileContent%3FserviceID%3D23%26fileid%3D41059166-60B1-EA40-D2B8-4EC6C8B65646%26lng%3Den+Tony+Blair%E2%80%99s+Annua l+Speech+on+Foreign+Policy+Given+at+the+Lord+Mayor %27s+Banquet+in+London+16+November+2004&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us)

They made you greater. The entire world felt admiration for the courage of the American people.

Now why would you be embarrassed about being an American?

That is a great speech and true to its word. A courageous country indeed!

It is a shame that IMO through poor administration a lot of that admiration has now been lost. Maybe that is why the poster is embarrassed. The world was on your side after 9/11, but many of those that were, now aren't.

The world was on your side after 9/11, but many of those that were, now aren't.
Fear, rage, and a thirst for revenge led us to squander a golden opportunity to demonstrate the wisdom and virtue of the ideals embodied in our founding documents and institutions. Instead, we abandoned those ideals and corrupted those institutions in pursuit of "payback". Turns out we're not so special after all. Nor can we blame George W. Bush exclusively (though a wiser leader may have been able to pull us back from the brink), because public opinion strongly supported his "kick as$ and take names" attitude in the immediate aftermath. But while a super-majority of the public has belatedly realized the folly of that approach (ABC News Poll: 80% Want Change (http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=4128343)), Bush remains eternally "optimistic" in the sunshine of his spotless mind. His current attempt to re-brand himself as a peacemaker boggles the mind.

"I'm sure people view me as a warmonger and I view myself as peacemaker," the president said.
...
I don't believe democracies, you know, generally lead to war-like governments. You know, 'Please vote for me, I promise you war.' It's not something that tends to win elections.
ABC News: Bush: 'They View Me as a Warmonger' (http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Politics/Story?id=4136209&page=2)

(His 2004 Campaign Theme: "I am a war president")

Your argument fails on “Payback” as the cause in view of the attack on Pearl Harbor. The disappointment, as it is, stems more from the way we handled not the war that toppled the Taliban and Saddam, but rather the way it was handled since. Another failure was in government propaganda; it was and is still not being done. We demonized the Japanese and have failed to do so with the Al- Qaeda. Not only that, there is the social liberalization of the Western Governments, and particularly ours (EDIT – Liberalism reflected by your view).

Al- Qaeda on the other had has done a marvelous job of demonizing America in video's shown around the world.

IEEE Spectrum: Al-Qaeda: Venture Capitalists of Terror (http://spectrum.ieee.org/nov07/5673)

Another failure was in government propaganda; it was and is still not being done. We demonized the Japanese and have failed to do so with the Al- Qaeda.
Any such "failure" is certainly not for lack of trying. The failure I see is that using the "war" metaphor gave Al Qaeda the status of a nation, when actually all they are is a bunch of self-righteous fundamentalist thugs. That's the relevant difference between Pearl Harbor and 9/11. Pearl Harbor was perpetrated by a nation. 9/11 was perpetrated by a gang.

You apparently did not read the link I provided or you wouldn't call them just a gang.

You apparently did not read the link I provided or you wouldn’t call them just a gang.
I read it. Sure, they're smart and tech-savvy, but they're still a gang of thugs, not a nation.

So, giving AL-Qaeda the status of a nation and attacking them was our failure and that is why the world was on our side after 9/11, but many of those that were, now aren't.

Interesting read on DC's point is found this week at American Thinker

American Thinker: Saving Major Coughlin (http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/01/saving_major_coughlin.html)

Al Qaeda may or may not be a gang ;but they desire an ummah.

So, giving AL-Qaeda the status of a nation and attacking them was our failure and that is why the world was on our side after 9/11, but many of those that were, now aren't.
Rhetorically elevating them to the status of a nation instead of treating them as the gang that they are was a tactical error that gave them more status and recognition than they deserved in the part of the world that already sympathized with them and mistrusted us.

Our strategic failure was abandoning our own ideals (adherence to the rule of law, respect for human rights, repudiation of torture). That's why many of those that supported us in the beginning no longer do.

Wait a minute, if we elevated them to the status of a Nation it would be to that of a Terrorist Nation wouldn't it? And offending those who sympathized with them ought to be of little concern to us.

I would say it was the Terrorist who abandoned the rule of law and respect for human rights. Or do you disagree?

I would say it was the Terrorist who abandoned the rule of law and respect for human rights. Or do you disagree?
Not at all. But terrorists have never made any pretense of holding these ideals, whereas our nation was founded on them, and they are the source and foundation of our strength and influence in the world.

Interesting read on DC's point is found this week at American Thinker

American Thinker: Saving Major Coughlin (http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/01/saving_major_coughlin.html)

Al Qaeda may or may not be a gang ;but they desire an ummah.
Tom, that is right on; the failure of the government to make known to the citizens of America the jihad doctrine of world conquest, and the re-creation of a supranational Islamic Caliphate remain a potent force among the Muslim masses:

... it would be a gross mistake to imagine that the idea of universal conquest may be considered as obliterated... the canonists and the vulgar still live in the illusion of the days of Islam's greatness. The legists continue to ground their appreciation of every actual political condition on the law of the holy war, which war ought never be allowed to cease entirely until all mankind is reduced to the authority of Islam-the heathen by conversion, the adherents of acknowledged Scripture [i.e. Jews and Christians] by submission.

American Thinker: The Muslim Mainstream and the New Caliphate (http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/04/the_muslim_mainstream_and_the.html)

I am ashamed that when we are tortured the outrage is not the same.


Cue right wing, talk radio fantic talk.

I grew up believing my country was wonderful and safe. I'm happy that I am an American. We elect our leaders and can't guarantee they'll lead exactly as we'd like them to. Being human and in such a high position is extremely stressful. Everyone seems to be a Monday morning quarterback. Without having all the information, everyone still knows how wrong we are and what we 'should have' done. Amazing! So far, even with some bad decisions, we are still safe. I'm grateful to be right where I am.

That will never happen. I once asked someone who demanded the US provide for their country's problems while calling our government such awful names, why they felt it was our duty to take care of them and they said 'because we could and therefore it was our duty'. Hmmmph! Complain and criticize and demand but don't learn from us.

I had to spread it too. :)



Sorry Chuff, had to spread it...grrrr

With you 100%. Sure would be nice if those so filled with hatred for us, would be kind enough to express that and decline taking our aid. Seems only right. Either you hate us or you don't. Make up your mind. Sure boils my blood. Would have much rather seen that same aid go to those Americans in New Orleans. Now that would have been money well spent !

I once asked someone who demanded the US provide for their country's problems while calling our government such awful names, why they felt it was our duty to take care of them and they said 'because we could and therefore it was our duty'. Of course we could make up stories like that too.

"Bush lied and people died". I'm so sick of hearing that I could just spit! If there is any one man responsible for the Iraq war, it is NOT G.W. Bush. It is Saddam. Regardless of what we found when we got to Iraq, Saddam DID have wmd because he used poison gas on the Kurds. Saddam could have prevented the war by simply letting the UN inspectors do their job. He was warned repeatedly. It was Saddam's hard head that cost him his posiltion and his life.

If there is any one man responsible for the Iraq war, it is NOT G.W. Bush. It is Saddam.Did he declare war on the U.S.

"Bush lied and people died". I'm so sick of hearing that I could just spit! If there is any one man responsible for the Iraq war, it is NOT G.W. Bush. It is Saddam. Regardless of what we found when we got to Iraq, Saddam DID have wmd because he used poison gas on the Kurds. Saddam could have prevented the war by simply letting the UN inspectors do their job. He was warned repeatedly. It was Saddam's hard head that cost him his posiltion and his life.


You have some valids points. Technically poisonous gas is classified as a WMD. However as for the WMD's, or the lack of after we showed up, our government is well aware of other countries that are in the same category as Iraq and actually further advanced. John McCain thinks the war, at least in part, is about oil: YouTube - John McCain admits Iraq War was over oil (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0GWoxbMs1k). Personally I think Dubya just needed any excuse after being blindsided by OBL so he took his frustration out on Saddam Hussein and Iraq.

I don't think many would disagree with the war in Afghanistan. I do support Dubya's decision on Afghanistan and always have. I would had been sorely disappointed with our drugstore cowboy president had he sat on his hands. Going after OBL was justifiable to not only Americans, but the world. Iraq is a whole other ball game though. The idea that constant defiance is a trigger mechanism in many cases is valid. Unfortunately though that was nothing new for Saddam. Hell we were in Iraq just a decade earlier. We all know that Hussein was a tyrant and a murderer. He committed crimes against humanity and earned the death penalty he so deserved. Dubya's big mistake was troop deployment. If he would had just bombed the hillsides, government buildings, and military installations, most would had been satisfied to let the Iraqis figure out what to do with their tyrant government. Iraq is not going to become the 51st state of the United States, one year from now or a hundred: National/Iraq War Debt Clock (http://www.sec-world.com/id24.html).

I suspect the reason for choosing Iraq above other similar countries with similar weapons has to do with establishing a wedge in the center of those countries. We are not told all the information that goes into such a decision, not even all the senators are privy to all of it. If the war was about oil, as believed by some, then where is that oil? We could use some more, right?
The above is conjecture on my part.

Bush is also responsible for the price of gas, global warming, the JFK assignation and cover up, World War I, slavery, that speeding ticket I got last March, the decline of Vanilla Ice's rap career, Jesus dying on the cross, the common cold, three legged dogs, the decline of the elephant in Africa, everybody in the history of earth who has ever died, the increase in temperature on the sun, the Chinese government limiting only one child per couple, kids wearing baggy pants, overweight people in Western countries, that guy that jumped into a lake full of alligators and got ate, in my former hometown of Lakeland, Florida, sinus headaches, my computer being slow, and of course the lack of syrup in the coke machine at the place I ate lunch at today.

What really needed to happen, was that we should have been more diplomatic with Iraq. It's common knowledge that there was order and stability under Hussein's rule, than now. Hussein did not like terrorists, it is also fact that he executed them. The only war I can begin to agree with is the one in Afghanistan, because that's where the Taliban was operating.

Ron Paul is right. If you think that these terrorists are attacking us just because we are free, you are mistaken. It's because we are policing the world and telling them what to do, sticking our nose in the arab's business. They don't like that, that's why 9/11 happened.

If anyone thinks a bunch of people still living in tribes in the stone age in some middle eastern country is a real threat to us, then you are a sheep. I hope the Republicans lose, and lose hard this election. I'm not a democrat, and frankly I doubt it could get much worse with Obama, at least foreign nations have taken a liking to him. I just don't want McBush to be elected so I get drafted for yet another stupid conflict with no real justification.

Call me up for service when the Russians are on the Mexican border or the Chinese are flying over the Pacific Ocean, until then step off Republicans.

We were diplomatic with Hussein for many years and he became worse and worse. You know the saying: Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I would never suggest that it was better over there then - than now. People were being raped, robbed, murdered whenever the fancy struck Saddam and his 'boys'. It was a terror filled life even then - and even before that.

I think we need an ally in the mideast and we were attempting to build our own. We have no one that we can trust other than Israel. We need to connect positively with an Arab population. It's easy to say Bush was wrong and this is a failure but we won't know that until more time passes. It could be the beginning of erasing hatred in the middle east and I don't think that would be considered a failure.

It doesn't matter if we like the personalities of our candidates or not. What matters is that we get someone who will try to keep us safe from terrorist (Islamic) attack. Do you really believe Obama is going to do that?? With his Muslim background... Muslim family members. Arabic buddies.

I just read one rule of Islam is there is no leaving it except in death. I don't understand how Obama was and then isn't any longer while that is a rule. I don't trust it. I will vote for someone who loves their country, has military knowledge, and doesn't need taxpayers money to keep their personal lives going...




What really needed to happen, was that we should have been more diplomatic with Iraq. It's common knowledge that there was order and stability under Hussein's rule, than now. Hussein did not like terrorists, it is also fact that he executed them. The only war I can begin to agree with is the one in Afghanistan, because thats where the Taliban was operating.

Ron Paul is right. If you think that these terrorists are attacking us just because we are free, you are mistaken. It's because we are policing the world and telling them what to do, sticking our nose in the arab's business. They dont like that, that's why 9/11 happened.

If anyone thinks a bunch of people still living in tribes in the stone age in some middle eastern country is a real threat to us, then you are a sheep. I hope the Republicans lose, and lose hard this election. I'm not a democrat, and frankly I doubt it could get much worse with Obama, atleast foreign nations have taken a liking to him. I just dont want McBush to be elected so I get drafted for yet another stupid conflict with no real justification.

Call me up for service when the Russians are on the Mexican border or the Chinese are flying over the Pacific Ocean, until then step off Republicans.

I just read one rule of Islam is there is no leaving it except in death. I don't understand how Obama was and then isn't any longer while that is a rule.He was never a muslim... and he obviously loves his country. You'll need to get your facts straight before you vote.

You are absolutely uninformed and should not make that statement. He wrote it in his own book. It's all over the internet, even on Snopes. How do you suggest he was never a Muslim when his father was Muslim which automatically makes him such, and he also attended Muslim schools? His stepfather was Muslim and he attended Islamic schools... "His former Roman Catholic and Muslim teachers, along with two people who were identified by Obama's grade-school teacher as childhood friends, say Obama was registered by his family as a Muslim at both schools he attended. That registration meant that during the third and fourth grades, Obama learned about Islam for two hours each week in religion class.

The childhood friends say Obama sometimes went to Friday prayers at the local mosque. “We prayed but not really seriously, just following actions done by older people in the mosque,” Zulfin Adi said. “But as kids, we loved to meet our friends and went to the mosque together and played.” … Obama's younger sister, Maya Soetoro, said in a statement released by the campaign that the family attended the mosque only “for big communal events,” not every Friday.

Recalling Obama's time in Indonesia, the Times account contains quotes that Obama “went to the mosque,” and that he “was Muslim.”

Summarized, available evidence suggests Obama was born a Muslim to a non-practicing Muslim father and for some years had a reasonably Muslim upbringing under the auspices of his Indonesian step-father. At some point, he converted to Christianity. It appears false to state, as Obama does, “I've always been a Christian” and “I've never practiced Islam.” The campaign appears to be either ignorant or fabricating when it states that “Obama never prayed in a mosque.”


Barack Obama and Islam (http://www.theobamafile.com/ObamaIslam.htm)

FrontPage Magazine (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=656B62BA-7A61-4DF8-BDF7-B3937EFDECB4)

netwmd - Confirmed: Barack Obama Practiced Islam (http://netwmd.com/blog/2008/01/07/2206)

Can a past of Islam change the path to president for Obama? - Examiner.com (http://www.examiner.com/a-534540~Can_a_past_of_Islam_change_the_path_to__pre sident_.html)

There is so much more if you just open your eyes.
***********************
"The Illinois Democrat spent much of last week refuting unfounded reports that he had been educated in a madrassa, or radical Islamic school, when he lived in Indonesia as a boy.

“The Indonesian school Obama attended in Jakarta is a public school that is not and never has been a Madrassa,” said a statement put out by the senator's staff.

But the school did teach the Quran, Islam's holy book, along with subjects such as math and science, according to Obama, who attended when he was 9 and 10.
This story continues below
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“In Indonesia, I had spent two years at a Muslim school,” he wrote in his first memoir, “Dreams from my Father.” “The teacher wrote to tell my mother that I made faces during Koranic studies.”

Obama — whose father, stepfather, brother and grandfather were Muslims — explained his own first name, Barack, in “Dreams”: “It means 'Blessed.' In Arabic. My grandfather was a Muslim.”

I guess if it isn't your country being put into such a position, you don't need to look too deeply at who you elect.

I don't see the relevancy of him being a Muslim when he was younger. If you listen to him and see him outside of politics, he is a normal American with a family. I think you are following a lot of the fear mongering that the far right has been spewing about Islam for the past 8 years. He is a Christian now, if I remember correctly. He realized that Islam wasn't a religion he wanted to be apart of, and he changed it.

You can't do much when you are a kid, especially in that kind of society. You are either Muslim, or you are killed/shunned. What was he supposed to do? The same applies for me. I was raised a Christian, but I made my own decision not to follow that faith when I began to think for myself.

[QUOTE=The safety of the American people are not the forefront concern because if it was, they would have not invaded another country. I guarantee that if Bill Clinton was still in office the attacks on America would not have happened and the war would not be going on right now.[/QUOTE]

Im sorry but, if Bill Clinton or anybody had been in office, the 9/11 attacks would still have happened. Americans had still not woken up to the fact that those who hate us COULD actually cause us serious damage THAT WE HAVE TO ADDRESS.

And please, be informed: Al Qaeda attacked various U.S. embassies during the Clinton years. And he treated it as a law-enforcement issue, no big deal.

Sudan offered Bin Laden to the U.S. We had him cornered and what did Clinton do? Turned our helicopters away and let him go.


Of course afterwards Bin Laden thought the US is a joke. With our mentality back then, it was not hard to infiltrate us, and bomb us with our own airplanes and our own education. They were smart, of course they were not going to do a direct attack because our intelligence picks those up more easily.

They have used our own resources against us and I think they continue to do so.
Unfortunately I think we already are littered with sleeper cells in this country.

I don't see the relevancy of him being a Muslim when he was younger. If you listen to him and see him outside of politics, he is a normal American with a family. I think you are following a lot of the fear mongering that the far right has been spewing about Islam for the past 8 years. He is a Christian now, if I remember correctly. He realized that Islam wasn't a religion he wanted to be apart of, and he changed it.

You can't do much when you are a kid, especially in that kind of society. You are either Muslim, or you are killed/shunned. What was he supposed to do? The same applies for me. I was raised a Christian, but I made my own decision not to follow that faith when I began to think for myself.

I did the same thing you did too. I was raised Christian, now I am of no religion, I believe in God and spirituality but not in established religion.

It seems Obama has had to realize there's many things he doesn't want to be a part of anymore suddenly as he runs for president.

But anyway, I still wonder, why are the Muslims not hating Obama? Being born Muslim you cannot just leave. He is an apostate, and in radical Islam they are to be killed. Why aren't the Muslims calling him a traitor? Why don't they show the activism on the streets they showed when the Pope (barely) criticized Islam? Will they hate us more now that an apostate is heading our nation? Perhaps infidels are worse.

[QUOTE=High Max;1274272]I don't see the relevancy of him being a Muslim when he was younger. If you listen to him and see him outside of politics, he is a normal American with a family. I think you are following a lot of the fear mongering that the far right has been spewing about Islam for the past 8 years.QUOTE]

You sound as if you know him personally. He lied about ever having been a Muslim so why wouldn't he continue to lie to us in order to be elected.

The fear mongering you talk about comes from the attacks we suffered from them. It is a fact - not a game, for pete's sake. It's a matter of life or death. Wake up!

Supposedly, he was raised at a young age to become one, whether he continued practice I cannot say with 100% certainty. But at this point he is a Christian, his family is Christian, they have been attending church for years.

John McCain even said yesterday that people should not be afraid of Obama becoming president; that he is a good, decent Christian family man.

Tell me, with some of the radicals I have seen at McCain/Palin ralies shouting out "terrorist, off with his head" and other scary remarks towards Obama, are these the kind of people we want influencing the Republican party?

We need to stop with the backwoods mentality that only a white Christian man can be President. There is no secret conspiracy that Obama is going to make this some sort of Islamic nation and start imprisoning Christians and making criminals out of them, or whatever the hell these people are thinking will happen. In this day and age, that wouldn't fly anyway, even if something so ridiculous was attempted!

Even if he was a Muslim, who cares? Christians aren't the only people with morals, and only RADICAL and VOILENT Muslims are people we should be worried about. Almost any Muslim I have ever met or talked with is a normal person like you and me, normally are very tolerant and are friendly, but hate the stereotyping and militant Muslims who perform terrorist activities. We need to remember that this is the United States of America, where every man has a chance and should not be judged based on his color and religion, and should be free to express himself without being hated and smeared at every turn.

Excuse me High Max but when someone puts themselves into the position of running for President of a country, they must expect to be questioned. When the answers are lies, they should expect to be disbelieved.

There may be many many 'good' Muslims as you say, but there are truly many many radicals. Did you not notice that whenever the Muslim leaders tell them that someone has insulted their religion in some way - such as writing a poem they don't like - Muslims in every corner of the world take to the streets. 10's of thousands of them.

It's not two or three or a dozen but enough to wreak havoc wherever they go.

I see your point, and I do not like the radicals either, they are scary and I understand the concern. Maybe we are just looking at different aspects of the issue. Honestly, I can't recall an election where ANY candidate has not stretched the truth or completely made up something.

Sure they stretch the truth. That means promising all kinds of wonderful things that are not even possible to achieve. Saying you've never been a Muslim while knowing you attended a Muslim school for 4 years. And an Islam Mosque, and both your father & stepfather were Muslim - that's not a stretch. That's an outright lie. Whether it matters what religion he is isn't the question. The question is if you lie about that, what else might also be a lie.

arrogant. Pompous. The only reason why there is a war is because the American government is money and power hungrey. What is there. Hmmm oil. If the american government were not so willing to go in and interfering in other countries wars there would be more peace.

Im sorry, but are you forgetting all the good things America does for other countries? How about during WWII, or the end of the cold war, or the Tsunami? If it wasn't for the US contributions the UN would not be able to do what it does.

The United States is a generous supporter of key UN programs, funding:

* 51.4% of the World Food Program budget to help feed 72 million people in 82 countries.*
* 17.1% of the United Nations Children's Fund budget to feed, vaccinate, educate and protect children in 162 countries.*
* 14.1% of the United Nations Development Program core budget to eradicate poverty and encourage democratic governance.*
* 25.8% of the International Atomic Energy Agency budget to ensure safe and peaceful application of nuclear energy and prevent the illicit use of nuclear material for weapons.**
* 22% of the World Health Organization core budget as well as significant voluntary resources, helping to prevent and control epidemics and to improve standards of health.**
* 25% of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees budget to help protect refugees and facilitate their return home or re-settlement in another country.*
* 25% of the International Civil Aviation Organization budget to ensure safe, efficient and economical air travel.**

* These programs operate strictly on voluntary contributions.
** These programs operate on a combination of assessed and voluntary contributions.

(http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/24236.htm)

European and other countries are much less generous, this may be partially due to their less newly created wealth (as opposed to recycled wealth) to spare than a capitalist nation like us. Or it may be due to a different set of values than America.

Besides, most Americans I know are not arrogant, and much less "pompous" as you describe. Especially if we cultivate good character values and morals.

Maybe you are confusing Hollywood, or a few idiots out there, with the majority of the hardworking American people, and the American spirit as a whole.

I want to know where the "blame America" crowd gets information to back up this lopsided view that America is "an oppressive imperialist nation" or "pompous"

That said, I am not saying America is perfect (lest I be labeled an ignorant arrogant capitalist pig) but I do say we are a nation to be proud of. And what is wrong with that?

What is wrong with defending your country from people who would resort to violence against us? (whether they have a valid bone to pick with us or not, targeting innocent civilians is NEVER justified)

But these terrorist are not picking at us for policy, they are picking at us because WE are INFIDELS, who deserve to be destroyed and conquered in the name of Allah according to the Koran. In addition, is the ISLAMOFACIST MOVEMENT all over the globe. From the Ayatolla, to the Netherlands and Holland, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, UK, Islam has bloody borders.

Many clerics throughout the Muslim world dream of the day Islam will be the law of the land. And to top it off, they spew hatred int heir sermons, against Jews and the USA, on the Arab channels.
And there is funding for these madrasas and operating terrorist cells.

Most Americans really do need a wake-up call on this and go read up about it or watch documentaries.

I'M AN AMERICAN! WE KICK AZZ! I'M AN AMERICAN!
I'm really just a brainwashed idiot but please don't tell anyone. I don't want them to think I am not patriotic. Now, to be patriotic, we should pay more taxes. Just ask Joe Biden. Me and Joe man.
WE ARE AMERICANS! WE KICK AZZ! WE ARE AMERICANS! YEA!

I don't see the relevancy of him being a Muslim when he was younger. If you listen to him and see him outside of politics, he is a normal American with a family. I think you are following a lot of the fear mongering that the far right has been spewing about Islam for the past 8 years. He is a Christian now, if I remember correctly. He realized that Islam wasn't a religion he wanted to be apart of, and he changed it.

You can't do much when you are a kid, especially in that kind of society. You are either Muslim, or you are killed/shunned. What was he supposed to do? The same applies for me. I was raised a Christian, but I made my own decision not to follow that faith when I began to think for myself.

It isn't as much about 'being a Muslim' as a child as it is about lying about it as an adult. I'd prefer a president who doesn't begin his political life blatantly lying.

Plus, while we are being attacked by Muslim terrorists because we are not one of them, does it make sense to choose a president with Muslim ties?

Shouldn't our safety and preservation be of utmost importance?

I'd prefer a president who doesn't begin his political life blatantly lying.I guess you won't be voting for McCain either.


Plus, while we are being attacked by Muslim terrorists because we are not one of them, does it make sense to choose a president with Muslim ties?He has none. If you think he does then you are simply spreading unfounded fear.


Shouldn't our safety and preservation be of utmost importance??Well of course. Best to pick a president that will not wage war all over the world and make nations hates the US.

And how do you arrive at the conclusion that it would be Obama, who no one knows much of anything about, other than his background?

You don't want to know so it really doesn't matter what anyone posts.

I've been up to my ears in this election for over a year NK, so probably know more about it than you do. It is after all, my country that will be affected the most in the end. It's my children and grandchildren who will have to live in whatever mess created by this generation - this election.

So then you do know more about Obama than I. That's good. I'm not sure why you keep saying you know nothing about the man.
My sister and her family live in the US. Many countries are affected by the US. Is it a problem for people to have a worldview? I don't think so.

Best to pick a president that will not wage war all over the world and make nations hates the US.

Uhh, FYI: Many countries already hated us before 9/11. Due to one thing or another about American (or modern culture).

But the Islamofacists hated us for being Infidels, and a world power, when THEY, being the loyal followers of Allah are the ones who deserve to rule the world. And, Allah is on their side to help them conquer it back for Islam and Allah. There are movements all over the world to establish Shari'ah Law.
And if you die "fighting Allah's battle" you will be rewarded with 77 virgins in heaven, and a free-pass to heaven for all your relatives.

But, you Blame-America crowd are mute on getting to know FATCS about our enemy. You are as un-educated about radical Islam as you are about most things. As the Hindus say "Ignorance is the source of all evil" Well, here, your ignorance about world issues is the source of your "evil."

TO all the LIBERAL NUTS out there:

Its getting old, hearing you parrot this anti-America rhetoric. Blame-America, passive-aggressive derangement.
Sure we are not perfect, but you sound like you are a lawyer for the rest of the world against America.

You do not love America, the country you live in. For example, when you love someone, say, a parent or a child, you can recognize their faults and work on them, with respect. You wouldn't ridicule them for it, incite your friends and neighbors against your loved one's faults, with hate talk and propaganda.

You do not love your country that gave you so much, so if you hate it so much then GET OUT! You should move to those wonderful countries that hate the US just as much as you do. Why are u comfortably installed here, running your mouth?

It seems that whoever coined these concepts, they have spread like wildfire among the passive-aggressive, naïve thinkers.
It is as catchy as it is devoid of any substance.

Hello C:

I don't know. I see that you buy into the dufus in chief's explanation that they hate us because of our culture...

But, nahhhhh... Osama Ben Laden hates us because we had bases in Saudi Arabia. It ain't no more mysterious than that... Of course, I'm just a liberal nut blaming America...

But, before you go there, I wonder how much of YOUR blood you left on the battlefield fighting for this great nation??

excon

I guess you won't be voting for McCain either.
Best to pick a president that will not wage war all over the world and make nations hates the US.

Umm, so: If you hear that a foreign country declares war on another country, does that incite hate in you?

I think most private citizens could care less, as long as it doesn't affect their country.

You swear like all the citizens are studying the international situation, and sitting there delivering moral analysis.

You think other countries are all about morals and ethics. They are about doing what is most convenient for them too. And do we hear France getting hated on, for doing what is convenient for France? Do we hear hate-propaganda against France?

Oh, but America, how dare you watch out for country's self-interests.

Hello C:

Osama Ben Laden hates us because we had bases in Saudi Arabia. It ain't no more mysterious than that.....

But, before you go there, I wonder how much of YOUR blood you left on the battlefield fighting for this great nation???

excon

Hello excon:

Yeah, sure, swallow that. That is what you were brainwashed to believe anyway.

Among two plausible explanations, there is one true one, and you need to go educate yourself about what is happening in the middle-east with Islamofacism.

They just sell you this "whatever, don't worry about it" explanation and you believe it.

So, if we DID have bases in Saudi Arabia, is that such a crime that it merits targeting innocent civilians ON PURPOSE?

Do you see how apologetic you are for people who want us to go down?
Should we just be afraid of offending these terrorist and just play appeasement?
You are like someone who JUSTIFIES an abusive husband or a serial killer: "It's that he beat the living sh*t out of you because you did x, y, z. Just don't piss him off next time. OK?"

And your rhetorically charged question about "how much blood" "I" have left on the battlefield. According to what you are trying to say, we should all 100% of us directly fight on the battlefield, well it doesn't work that way. You don't have to be a member of the military to be patriotic. What the hell do you know anyway, about how I went to a recruiter for the Army but didn't qualify medically? Your rhetorically charged question is so disrespectful, especially because I know it is meaningless to you, just a rhetorical tactic.

And I have the highest respect for our military. Those people offer their bodies and the life that runs through their veins for their country.

dufus in chief's explanation that they hate us because of our culture


I never bought into that. He may say that because it's the politically correct thing to say and not to incite chaos.

Get it straight through your thick skull: The islamofacists hate us NOT because of our policy, or our culture, but because of our RELIGION.
WE (you and I) are INFIDELS. It is a RELIGIOUS war. It is hard to negotiate with religious fanatics who, are not looking pragmatically for their own benefit, but rather believe these are higher mandates, from God himself.

It is also a political one making it twice as dangerous. They are not just going to preach or send missionaries. They mobilize politically (play the political game) and militarily (where they lack, thus the suicide bomber). They want ISLAM to be the LAW OF THE LAND, THROUGHOUT THE WORD and Allah is on their side.

I'm a jerk and I find the need to cheat because I don't have anything original to sayHello again, C

You got it.

excon

Lol, whatever, to the one above me

You have run out of intelligent things to say so now you play games? Making up quotes on me, How childish can you get?

You are really representing your people well here.

You are really representing your people well here.Who are his people?

The people who think the way he does, as evident from the posts. He had identified himself as a "liberal nut."

I was making a general statement to any "liberal nuts" "out there" (not people in this board specifically) and he came to the call so quickly, I guess the shoe fits.

You can be a liberal, not necessarily nutty.

Hello again, C:

Actually, I caught you at mid edit when I thought you were doing the same thing to MY post. I see that you didn't, but mine was already there... So, I left it...

Call me impolite in addition to having the thick skull you already accused me of. I'll even accept the label of nut, cause it's probably true. But, this nut can kick your right wing butt anytime head to head...

In that regard, I invite you to engage me in the Obama Lovefest thread I got going on. I'm sure we can find some disagreement there.

excon

OK fair enough. You could tack that on if you want to. I personally don't know if you are a nut or not.
But you seemed to make no issue of the big problem of Islamofacism.

A lot of people are alseep on this issue.
Not understanding the reality of the situation in the middle east, they are unqualified to judge what actions are favorable or unfavorable by our government.

Yeah I'll save that Obama Lovefest for later http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/happy/happy0065.gif

Hello again, C:

Actually, I'm a little bit to the right of the dufus. In fact, I DO understand the danger the islamofacists present. Iraq is just a diversion that has delayed us in that quest.

excon

Iraq may have served as a fly-magnet, I don't know. Terrorist groups would feel the most called-to-action against the "American occupier."

And actually, in contrast to what truthtrumpsall said, Iraq was pretty stable before we went in. Sure Sadam did commit atrocities against people who stood against him. But actually he was a pragmatist. As long as you were for Sadam you could get by all right. Women in Iraq were allowed to hold jobs and drive cars, and didn't have to cover their head or wear burkas. There was a large middle class, and modern life.

Iraq may be a chess piece in the whole middle-eastern situation, which is a sticky situation.

IF the Koran really calls for the destruction of the Infidels, and the conquering of lands for Islam, how do you deal with that?
(I have heard the claim that moderate Muslims are simply Muslims who have not really read the Koran very well. I don't know if that's true, or if it's a matter of scripture interpretation).

Since we don't want to single out ALL Muslims, all we can do is count on the help of the Moderate Muslims.

It's better to be proud to be a human being than be proud to be part of a country.
It separates all of us.

C, unfortunately your dreaded liberal nightmare is going to likely going to come true in November. The electoral college prefers Obama last time I heard.

Hahahaha! Now I can sit back and laugh. Obama will take away your bibles, raise your taxes to all oblivion for no reason at all, let your children be raped, start wars all over the world, start to make negotiations with terrorist nations and send nukes to every third world nation. Women deciding what to do with their own body may still be OK, for now. The deficit will raise into the trillions and trillions, he will come find you in the night and eat your heart out! Nations from all over the world will wage war on us and destroy the USA and then enslave your children and send them over to China for cheap labor.

OH NOEZ!

Get real, everyone goes nuts about "liberals" every year and thinks that it's the end of times. Give me a break people, seriously. :rolleyes:



IF the Koran really calls for the destruction of the Infidels, and the conquering of lands for Islam, how do you deal with that?
.

You leave them alone and let them do their own thing and quit egging them on, realizing that piss ant third world countries know our capabilities and would strike them into hell if they ever attempted something real and serious against us. Most of it is all tough talk that is rarely if ever backed up.

IF the Koran really calls for the destruction of the Infidels, and the conquering of lands for Islam, how do you deal with that? Hello C:

I don't know. During your Rapture, doesn't YOUR Bible call for the death of all those who aren't saved?? I think it DOES.

How do you deal with THAT?

excon

Wooohoooo! Looks like a new era!

Thankfully.

Obama's Stance on Iraq

Barack Obama will work with his military commanders to responsibly end the war in Iraq. Obama will refocus our resources on al Qaeda in Afghanistan...


McCain's Stance on Iraq

John McCain has no plan to end the war in Iraq, and would keep spending $10 billion a month in Iraq while the Iraqi government sits on a huge surplus. McCain calls Iraq "the central front of the war on terror" even though Osama bin Laden and the al Qaeda terrorists who attacked us are getting stronger in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

A new era? Of what? Printing more money we don't have then throwing it at our problems?
Repubs and Dems working closer together to Print more money for more stimulus packages that are really just robbing the poor to give to the already filthy rich?
No, not a new era, just hope. But being the crazy bastard I am even I know hope is for the most part empty.
It takes real substance to build, change or do anything. Mostly just hard work.
Nancy Pelosi, Barny Frank and Cris Dodd are still there. But don't let me pop any ones bubble... no. You enjoy your warm afterglow as long as you can. It will disapate soon enough.

A new era? Of what? Printing more money we don't have then throwing it at our problems?
Repubs and Dems working closer together to Print more money for more stimulus packages that are really just robbing the poor to give to the already filthy rich?
No, not a new era, just hope. But being the crazy bastard I am even I know hope is for the most part empty.
It takes real substance to build, change or do anything. Mostly just hard work.
Nancy Pelosi, Barny Frank and Cris Dodd are still there. But don't let me pop any ones bubble...no. You enjoy your warm afterglow as long as you can. It will disapate soon enough.

Not being American Mag, I'm not really seeing this from your perspective. I see it as a message of 'hope' to a lot of people around the world who have felt the oppression of the Bush Administration for a lot of years. Those of us who disagreed with the Bush Administration decision to invade Iraq and instead seek an alternative, more potentially unifying and effective solution to dealing with terrorism. I see a chance that observers of the US will be better placed and able to cooperate in bringing about certain basic shifts in attitude and action with Obama as President.

As you rightly point out, it's an imperfect world, and Obama isn't going to make it perfect.

Here's an interesting conversation Mag that you might appreciate. They're in London talking about the US election and how it's been viewed by people around the globe:

The world's American election: a conversation | open Democracy News Analysis (http://www.opendemocracy.net/article/the-worlds-american-election-a-conversation)

Whether or not you are ashamed to be an American, what it boils down to is supporting the troops that are in Iraq. I spent one year over there and I am DAMN PROUD to have gone over there. It's amazing how people are so loud about their opinions yet, were they ever willing to serve and protect our country?

ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS CIVILIANS!!

Proud U.S. Army National Guard SOLDIER

Thanks armygirl for your service to our country. It is the military that, when all is said and done, guarantee our right to free speech and differing opinions.

It amazes me that some people have opinions of this country based upon who is in the oval office. As a first generation American, I love and appreciate this country warts and all, whether it is Bush or Obama who is president.

Zeitgeist: Addendum (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912)

Zeitgeist: Addendum (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912)

I saw this a few weeks ago. It was amazing

Wow, that was fascinating.

Zeitgeist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist)

The Zeitgeist Movement (http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/)

While I agree with the overall 'emergent universe' picture presented, there were a few details in the second link that had me asking questions.

Here's one:
Our research has concluded that Scarcity is one of the most fundamental causes of aberrant human behavior, while also leading to complex forms of neurosis in other ways. A statistical look at drug addiction, crime and incarceration statistics, finds that poverty and unhealthy social conditions comprise the life experience of those who engage in such behavior.


Statistics show that drug addiction, divorce and domestic violence are found in all strata of society, while many of the poorest of poor don't engage in those same self/other abusive actions. Unless I'm missing something, the above claim doesn't seem to take this into account.

Another example:
education about life operations will inform people as to the ramifications of their reproductive interests and population growth will naturally slow as people begin to realize how they are related to the planet and its carrying capacity.

Cultural norms run deep as evidenced in China where the one child policy has resulted in more males being born simply because boys are favoured over girls. Re-educating society en masse to shift age-old beliefs has proven to be a mammoth, if not impossible, task.

Just a few thoughts. Fascinating ideas though.

They are on AM radio tonight. Coast to Coast AM with George Noory.

wow, that was fascinating.

Zeitgeist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist)

The Zeitgeist Movement (http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/)

While I agree with the overall 'emergent universe' picture presented, there were a few details in the second link that had me asking questions.

Here's one:
Our research has concluded that Scarcity is one of the most fundamental causes of aberrant human behavior, while also leading to complex forms of neurosis in other ways. A statistical look at drug addiction, crime and incarceration statistics, finds that poverty and unhealthy social conditions comprise the life experience of those who engage in such behavior.


Statistics show that drug addiction, divorce and domestic violence are found in all strata of society, while many of the poorest of poor don't engage in those same self/other abusive actions. Unless I'm missing something, the above claim doesn't seem to take this into account.

Another example:
education about life operations will inform people as to the ramifications of their reproductive interests and population growth will naturally slow as people begin to realize how they are related to the planet and its carrying capacity.

Cultural norms run deep as evidenced in China where the one child policy has resulted in more males being born simply because boys are favoured over girls. Re-educating society en masse to shift age-old beliefs has proven to be a mammoth, if not impossible, task.

Just a few thoughts. Fascinating ideas though.

They are talking about a future society in which we can overcome the restrictions of scarcity, not trying to find one that already exists. Yes (almost) all strata of society has those symptoms now, because no matter if it's money or bartering, or whatever form of monetary system one has, it's still because of scarcity. The point is overcoming that because of our technology and knowledge today to create a NEW society.

The point of education is exactly to shift beliefs and teach people about new ways of thinking. Society has also shown in time that we ADAPT. You can see how much westernized other countries have become, and who have abandoned old ways of thinking. Many Asian countries are now taking up Christianity, something which was never accepted before; and religion if anything has to be one of the biggest cultural issues there is. People only hold on to cultural norms as long as they believe in them; true and widespread education is what will eradicate those issues. It's not as if we are living in a civilized world now; the one-child system in China IS a cultural norm there, but do you really think it will be that way forever? As we interact with each other, we change, and adopt each other's culture.

We do have a lot to learn but it's not an impossible task, it will just take a lot of time, as people really do slowly become informed.

They are talking about a future society in which we can overcome the restrictions of scarcity, not trying to find one that already exists. Yes (almost) all strata of society has those symptoms now, because no matter if it's money or bartering, or whatever form of monetary system one has, it's still because of scarcity. The point is overcoming that because of our technology and knowledge today to create a NEW society.




The point of education is exactly to shift beliefs and teach people about new ways of thinking. Society has also shown in time that we ADAPT. You can see how much westernized other countries have become, and who have abandoned old ways of thinking. Many Asian countries are now taking up Christianity, something which was never accepted before; and religion if anything has to be one of the biggest cultural issues there is. People only hold on to cultural norms as long as they believe in them; true and widespread education is what will eradicate those issues. It's not as if we are living in a civilized world now; the one-child system in China IS a cultural norm there, but do you really think it will be that way forever? As we interact with each other, we change, and adopt each other's culture.

We do have a lot to learn but it's not an impossible task, it will just take a lot of time, as people really do slowly become informed.

I wasn't implying social change isn't possible, since blatantly it is. Social change can come about slowly or all of a sudden. However, just as the spread of democracy has not followed a predictable or even path, neither has the spread of Christianity, economic development, spread of education (knowledge) and technology. Nor is Christianity ever likely to be the dominant religion. I think it is naïve in the extreme to imagine any single vision of the world will be adopted uniformally across the globe through education and/or osmosis no matter how appealing I might find that ideology to be.

I wasn't implying social change isn't possible, since blatantly it is. Social change can come about slowly or all of a sudden. However, just as the spread of democracy has not followed a predictable or even path, neither has the spread of Christianity, economic development, spread of education (knowledge) and technology. Nor is Christianity ever likely to be the dominant religion. I think it is naive in the extreme to imagine any single vision of the world will be adopted uniformally across the globe through education and/or osmosis no matter how appealing I might find that ideology to be.

If you examine how much more uniform the world has become in even the last 50 years, yes, it is completely possible that the entire world could become uniform. It is difficult to fathom at this point only because we have nothing to base our perceptions on but the past and our experiences. The world is smaller than ever and only getting smaller. The reason things have not changed along a predictable path is because it was always changed by a differing area and culture; but eventually all of the communication and sharing of ideas will be blended into all areas and we will all grow together and be able to work out ideas without outside influence, since it will not exist anymore.

While I agree there has been a greater exchange of ideas and an increased level of understanding of each other and what is happening around the world, there remains enormous diversity both within and across cultures.

Possibly because I tend to prefer the notion of a cultural mosaic rather than the American ideal of a melting pot, we seem to be talking at cross purposes, Aries. The American ideal is not abhorant to me at all, and I can live comfortably with those fundamental differences. However, if we were to continue to exchange our differences of opinion for too long, we would probably only give each other a headache :)

Our underlying ideals and hopes seem to be very similar as much of the philosophy of an 'emergent universe' embodied within the Zeitgeist Movement appeals to me. I was mainly questioning some of their research and underlying assumptions, and am wondering how they expect their vision will be realised.

I'm vietnamese, lol. I'm so proud I'm vietnamese to be honest. To me, the vietnamese are very determined and strong. I don't know if I'd offend anybody, but in the France and American's war against the vietnamese, I think we stood up pretty brave. That's what I think. We even stood up against the Chinese and Japanese too!

My country has been through a lot of wars, but I think that war makes people stronger, and more competitive. But no, I don't think war is the best idea though.

I am irish. I would be totally pro-USA. As a world power, the USA has had a proud record, and has endured much undeserved abuse from other countries, and taken for granted by others (continental europe mainly). I was horrified by the events of 9/11, as horrified as any American citizen, and sickened by the sight of mid-east crowds celebrating. The response by the US was measured though at times questionable.
What puzzled me most though was the hostility after 9/11 shown to people visiting the US from friendly countries, mine included. We saw good people, some fellow citizens indeed, handcuffed, arrested, badly treated and thrown out of the US. I associated this hostility not so much with president bush, but to those around him, though as the commander in chief, he did bear ultimate responsibility. I viewed the like of Rumsfeld, Cheney, Rice, etc, as corrupt, bad and responsible for this. To me they represent the other side of the militant islam coin. It left me with no wish to ever visit the US.
This feeling eased with the passing of that regime, and the hope generated by the incoming Obama regime.

On YouTube, I found a Cheney interview from 1994 when he was defence secretary under the first and much smarter president Bush. He said that removing Saddam Hussein would be a mistake because it would destabilize the whole middle east and increase Islamic extremism and resentment towards the West. Why the heck didn't he follow his own advice when he became president? Not a typo, Bush was a puppet president while Cheney and Rumsfeld ran things behind the scenes.

On youtube, I found a Cheney interview from the late 80s when he was defence secretary under the first and much smarter president Bush. He said that removing Saddam Hussein would be a mistake because it would destabilize the whole middle east and increase Islamic extremism and resentment towards the West. Why the heck didn't he follow his own advice when he became president? Not a typo, Bush was a puppet president while Cheney and Rumsfeld ran things behind the scenes.

Oh my Lord.