A lot of this is not going to make sense, since I’m just basically writing whatever is coming into my mind right now so bear with me.

I have a feeling the people (not all) who claim to love or believe in God only do it because of his ability to put people in heaven or hell. It's like a mass brown nosing. I wonder whether those same people would still love him if he wasn't so high and mighty. Think about it there are countless of these self-righteous, sanctimonious blockheads that claim belief (some may even be priests) for their own spiritual benefit.

And those who do all the self-less acts of giving and volunteering is in a way being selfish I think for it gives them JOY in return, which goes against the definition of selfless. I realize I’m being extremely cynical right now and am in no way trying to disrespect those who are fully devoted to giving their time and effort for the better cause. But there are those, I might even dare to say a majority of the people (including me) who only do such “selfless” acts to benefit themselves in an effort to improve the look on their resume or college application. That being said, I would much rather like to see a Buddhist who completely devotes himself to his religion without fear or doubt than see a regular Christian who constantly lies to himself. It makes me sick to look at such overzealous people praise God when their motives are so obvious. Many old people I see are overzealous (understandably so since their time is running pretty low to make a good impression on God) with their constant preaching and praying.

In addition, I also can't help but think the concept of religion to be nothing, but a mass conspiracy to keep the lower class in control (it sounds paranoid and foolish I know, but it can’t be completely ruled out). Religion has first appeared in an attempt to explain the inexplainable, which has by now has been replaced by science. So with the original purpose of religion gone, it makes sense for others to try to use it to their own advantage as is very apparent throughout history (especially in Catholicism). Without God to give hope of a glorious afterlife, there's no way in hell these lower class people will stand by and be trampled on. They would try to live out their life to the best and mass chaos will roar throughout the globe.

I think the main lesson here is to be practical and accept the fact that there is a chance that God may not exist, but to continue to have faith in Him because nobody can be sure of his existence, for there is no proof and continue to live by His rules and teachings. That being said, how do you believe when you can’t be sure? I think the better word for it is “trust”. You must trust that God exists and not believe he exists, which I think are different (someone help clarify this point). There’s a difference in saying I believe the Knicks will make it to the Final Four and I trust the Knicks will make it to the Final Four. To trust is to fully understand and accept the fact that He may not exist and yet still have faith whereas to believe is to completely rule out such possibilities and is more like blindly believing something, which for some reason sounds worse.

Lol I just realized that instead of asking a question, I've done a rant.
Well the queastion is: Is there a point in religion? Or better yet, what IS religion? Is it a simple reward and punishment system like we do with dogs or something much deeper?
I would also be interested to read in your comments about what I have said.

If you are unsure he exists I dare you to pray each night before bed " Jesus if you are real i want to know you and i want you to reveal yourself to me" if you do this for 60 days sincerely I guarantee you that you will meet him in person and you will them know him personally, as far as God being all high and mighty in your letter did you forget that he came to earth in the form of a baby, and served others while here, than not only died, but died on a cross to pay for our sins, nothing is more humble than what Jesus is and did. I think you need to read your bible a little more and talk to God a little more, as you have a lot of things here confused, and also you say there are people that are not true in what they are doing, Jesus himself warned that many would falsely come and use his name, so we should already know that, and everywhere bad people can be found, even in Churches

You see I know God exists. I have never doubted. As far as religion goes it sounds that your very cynical but that is your choice and your feelings. I do believe that you are paranoid and that your lumping people in one category. It does not matter what group your connected with. What religion, What culture. There are people who want to make themselves look good, just for the show. Not for the benefit of others. It is not up to you or I to judge anybody's heart. It is up to God. God knows who is sincere in his/her love and who is not. The only true life lesson is to LOVE, Learn true love and to share true love to others.

Joe

Your faith or trust is only as good as the object in which you put your trust in. God doesn't want to send anybody to hell. He sent his only begotten son to seek and save that which was lost. In order to understand this you must read john 3:17-18. Along with john3:16. God does not condem. The world condems itself through unbelief. God does exist and that is the truth. Jesus said "i am the way the TRUTH and the life no one comes unto the Father but by me." John 14:6. It is the truth and it still is the truth whether someone believes it or not. I would rather you find this out now instead of the other side of eternity.

Hi Very,

Oh my. Not sure where to start. Oh Yes I love God, Our Father and feel so unworthy of His love. To be honest, and this may be wrong, but I don't think of eternal life, as I know I just have too much work to do to cleanse my soul.

I trust and yes believe there is a God, and have been blessed at a very young age to have been introduced to Him, something I will forever be grateful to my Mother for.

Why do I trust and believe? Because God our Father, carried me through some pretty sad days and I truly felt his love.

I do not have this faith so it is in exchange for eternal life. I have this faith because I have been blessed, so very blessed and have an obligation, because I have been given
This blessing to know Our Father, to share His love with others. Oh not by preaching, but from sharing love from the heart.

When you do and give from your heart, it is always genuine.

If you wish, take a quiet moment and talk to Our Father. Someone wants shared with me, that we can talk to Him, just like we would our earthly father. Tell Him your fears, your doubts, your concerns. Open your heart to him, you will be so surprised how you feel his prescence.

Just so you know, so many times I found myself, forgetting to pray, staying in the dark, thinking I can handle this life on my own. When I would forget, that's when I struggled the most, when things became so unclear. The moments that I remembered the love of Our Father, that's when I am the happiest.

Sorry, I hope this helps. Seems I am rambling on myself.

I personally think I am wiccan. I do believe in a god or at least think I do, but at time's I wonder why and how is there a supreme being. Honestly that's not possible... scienctifically. There's nothing wrong with wondering and doubting. My fiancé doesn't believe anything... so basically there may be a god or not. You just need to reseaurch different belief's and maybe you'll find what you what or you may be of no religion.

Scientifically there is support that there is a supreme being, a supreme creator. Anything is possible and everything is possible. We are only a small part that actually exists in this whole world. It is amazing to think of all the possibilities out there. The world is bigger then just our earth.

Joe

A lot of this is not going to make sense, since I’m just basically writing whatever is coming into my mind right now so bear with me.

I have a feeling the people (not all) who claim to love or believe in God only do it because of his ability to put people in heaven or hell. It's like a mass brown nosing. I wonder whether those same people would still love him if he wasn't so high and mighty. Think about it there are countless of these self-righteous, sanctimonious blockheads that claim belief (some may even be priests) for their own spiritual benefit.

And those who do all the self-less acts of giving and volunteering is in a way being selfish I think for it gives them JOY in return, which goes against the definition of selfless. I realize I’m being extremely cynical right now and am in no way trying to disrespect those who are fully devoted to giving their time and effort for the better cause. But there are those, I might even dare to say a majority of the people (including me) who only do such “selfless” acts to benefit themselves in an effort to improve the look on their resume or college application. That being said, I would much rather like to see a Buddhist who completely devotes himself to his religion without fear or doubt than see a regular Christian who constantly lies to himself. It makes me sick to look at such overzealous people praise God when their motives are so obvious. Many old people I see are overzealous (understandably so since their time is running pretty low to make a good impression on God) with their constant preaching and praying.

In addition, I also can't help but think the concept of religion to be nothing, but a mass conspiracy to keep the lower class in control (it sounds paranoid and foolish I know, but it can’t be completely ruled out). Religion has first appeared in an attempt to explain the inexplainable, which has by now has been replaced by science. So with the original purpose of religion gone, it makes sense for others to try to use it to their own advantage as is very apparent throughout history (especially in Catholicism). Without God to give hope of a glorious afterlife, there's no way in hell these lower class people will stand by and be trampled on. They would try to live out their life to the best and mass chaos will roar throughout the globe.

I think the main lesson here is to be practical and accept the fact that there is a chance that God may not exist, but to continue to have faith in Him because nobody can be sure of his existence, for there is no proof and continue to live by His rules and teachings. That being said, how do you believe when you can’t be sure? I think the better word for it is “trust”. You must trust that God exists and not believe he exists, which I think are different (someone help clarify this point). There’s a difference in saying I believe the Knicks will make it to the Final Four and I trust the Knicks will make it to the Final Four. To trust is to fully understand and accept the fact that He may not exist and yet still have faith whereas to believe is to completely rule out such possibilities and is more like blindly believing something, which for some reason sounds worse.

Lol I just realized that instead of asking a question, I've done a rant.
Well the queastion is: Is there a point in religion? Or better yet, what IS religion? Is it a simple reward and punishment system like we do with dogs or something much deeper?
I would also be interested to read in your comments about what I have said.

My daughter when little told a playmate that the way to say funny things was to "Just say whatever comes into your head!"

While that might be true of children, as we mature and consider the world and all that is in it, we do well to become informed so that our opinions are based on something more than our feelings at the moment, and to ensure that what we say is not merely governed by our emotions.

One definition of Religion is that it is any form of attendance on or worship of a supreme being. Having said that, to deal with all the objections/questions you raise about religion and the religious would take several volumes. Is it not sufficient to say that many people derive direction, succour, and comfort from their faith? These would seem to be excellent points derived from religion.

On the question of fear of opunishment as the motivation for religious adherence, I do not see it. That opinion - I will not call it an argument - has been used for centuries by the non-religious as a form of criticism.

But what if there is more to it than that? What if religious faith is not the delusion that the non-religious sometimes claim it to be?

What if there is something real in the religious experiences of mankind? Does person A have to feel what person B feels in order to make person B's religious experience valid?

Does person A have to feel the same love for for Person B's wife that person B feels for Person B's love for his wife to be valid for person B, or can he love her irrespective of any feeling person A might or might not have?

Religion is like love. Some will say that it is love, and that it is love for God rather than fear of God that motivates them to be 'religious.'

I consider your answers qwould be better answers for you and more understandable and acceptable to you if you were to delve into the natyure of religious experience as experienced by others, rather than sitting, as it were, on the sidelines watching a game in which you are not involved.

You might never become a player, but at least you will begin to understand the game and appreciate that those who play it enjoy it.

I will address one further point you make, and that is the question of social control. It is undeniable that there have been times and places where rleigion was used to subdue the poor and keep them in their places. One well-known hymn, says:

The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate.
God made them high and lowly
And ordered their estate.

That worked well when the local minister was in cahoots with the local squire and the local maghistrate to keep the underpaid, overworked, and ill-used masses quiet. However, time has marche don, the earth has rotated a few mopre times, and the places where that was so have enjoyed a social revolution so that no minister, squire, or magistrate is counted more worthy of anything than the most lowly working man.

Interestingly enough, although certain forms of religion imposed such controls, it was also certain forms of religion that broke them, raised mankind to its feet, and threw off the shackles of slavery and serfdom. It has not always been bad news everywhere for everyone. Religion has done and still does make major contributions to society and our well being.

The non-religious benefit by being in the same place, whether they like that or not. That is a fact of life.

While it is customary for some to notice religion only to find fault with it, it is a imbalanced view of the world's religions as a whole to heap only negativity at their doors. One can only do such if one is blind or ignorant of the many positive contributions that religion has made to ease the burdens of humanity.

Thank you for an interesting post and some thought-provoking questions.

M:)RGANITE

.....Is there a point in religion? Or better yet, what IS religion? Is it a simple reward and punishment system like we do with dogs or something much deeper?.....



I'm not sure what you mean by a "point."

There is a strictly sociological atheistic way of looking at religion that is taught in our schools of higher learning which would partially be in accord with the reward punishment viewpoint. In this scenario religion would also be a way of alleviating mankind's fears of the unknown via giving the illusion that it has some control over its own destiny and that the forces of nature can be appeased.

The majority of non-atheists view religion as a manifestation of divine guidance. For Christians, for example, the religion revealed via the OT and NT comprises God's instructive message to mankind.

BTW
The relationship between God and man isn't that of master and pet. It's one of parent and child. Which brings up the question of whether rewarding someone for following instructions make him a pet. Just an afterthoght. No humor intended.

Hi Very,

Oh my. Not sure where to start. Oh Yes I love God, Our Father and feel so unworthy of His love. To be honest, and this may be wrong, but I don't think of eternal life, as I know I just have to much work to do to cleanse my soul.

I trust and yes beleive there is a God, and have been blessed at a very young age to have been introduced to Him, something I will forever be grateful to my Mother for.

Why do I trust and beleive? Because God our Father, carried me through some pretty sad days and I truly felt his love.

I do not have this faith so it is in exchange for eternal life. I have this faith because I have been blessed, so very blessed and have an obligation, because I have been given
this blessing to know Our Father, to share His love with others. Oh not by preaching, but from sharing love from the heart.

When you do and give from your heart, it is always genuine.

If you wish, take a quiet moment and talk to Our Father. Someone wants shared with me, that we can talk to Him, just like we would our earthly father. Tell Him your fears, your doubts, your concerns. Open your heart to him, you will be so surprized how you feel his prescence.

Just so you know, so many times I found myself, forgetting to pray, staying in the dark, thinking I can handle this life on my own. When I would forget, that's when I struggled the most, when things became so unclear. The moments that I remembered the love of Our Father, that's when I am the happiest.

Sorry, I hope this helps. Seems I am rambling on myself.
If you are a Christian, then you are righteoused by Jesus, and you ought not to feel unworthy. To feel unworthy is to (sort of) deny the all-encompassing atonement of Jesus. Stand in his light and love! "Though your sins be scarlet they shall be as wool. Though they be red like crimson, they shall be as white as snow." You believe in Jesus. Now BELIEVE what JESUS says.

:)

I personally think i am wiccan. I do believe in a god or at least think i do, but at time's i wonder why and how is there a supreme being. Honestly that's not possible...scienctifically. There's nothing wrong with wondering and doubting. My fiance doesn't believe anything...so basically there may be a god or not. You just need to reseaurch different belief's and maybe you'll find what you what or you may be of no religion.

Scientifically? Many scientists believe in God, and find no disharmony with science and religion. The only conflict can come if neither the science or the religion is true. True religion embraces true science. The question, then, is not TO BE, OR NOT TO BE, but IS HE OR ISN'T HE?

The questions of 'why' and 'how' there can be a supreme being are much less important than actually experiencing God, and by knowing he is without necessarily being able either to explain your faith or defend it.

Be happy. Look for the light.

M:)RGANITE

Hello VeryCurios,

What you have said in many ways is true and yet in today's society will not be understood because much of organized religion's base there faith or beliefs on emotions. Please allow me to explain.

When one goes to a doctor for an opinion or for medical attention, as a thinking person we would check the doctor out and see if he qualifies and has the skills and experience to deal with your problem. Most would ask questions and seek answers to those questions. There will be some who do the leg work in order to "trust" this doctor to do his/her very best for his patients. Then there will be those who will just go to the doctor and won't ask any questions, or check this doctors background. This kind of person then can be said to seek their medical attention by "blind faith," unlike the other person who wants to be sure that they can trust this doctor.

When one searches for the Creator, who we call God, one needs to do the leg work, so to speak. We need to ask question such as the ones you asked.( " Is there a point in religion? Or better yet, what IS religion? Is it a simple reward and punishment system like we do with dogs or something much deeper?)

This is what seperate an intellegent person from those who go through life with what I call, "blind faith." In the doctor example the person who checked out the doctors backgroung and abilities, had their questions answered to "their" satisfaction, before placing trust in the doctor. Once he felt comfortable and had all his questions answered, he then felt a sense of " satisfaction, before placing trust in the doctor. Once he felt comfortable and had all his questions answered, he then felt a sense of " in that doctor. Then as time went on and trust built in him, he was able to place his faith in this doctor.


Trust and faith in God can help us overcome fear.—Proverbs 3:5, 6; 29:25. Just like we place our trust in a doctor to care for us or a loved one. We first learned the doctors skills and his personality, was he caring, his track record on how he cared for other patients, and many others things that helped you to first “trust” him and then allow him to care for your health issue.

Walking by faith requires implicit trust in God's ability to direct our lives. We must be fully convinced that he really knows what is in our best interests. As we make decisions in life and act on them, we take into account “realities we do not see.

Walking by faith, not by sight! Trust and confidence in God's promises will safeguard us from experiencing 'shipwreck concerning our faith.' (1 Timothy 1:19) By all means, then, let us be determined to continue walking by faith, fully confident and with complete Trust in God, for without that trust we can not have complete faith in God or that he exists. There is no trust without searching for the knowledge that builds trust. We must convince ourselves without any doubt that God does exits. How can we do that?

So Verycurious, you are correct we need trust in order to have faith and maintain it. Here are some reasons I personally feel God exists. Think about them and let me know what you feel about these matters.
1- . The existence of order presupposes the existence of organizing intelligence. Such intelligence can be none other than God's doing. Natural order was not invented by the human mind or set up by certain perceptive powers, but the order of things shows intelligence and power.

2-Scientists have identified over 100 chemical elements. Their atomic structure displays an intricate mathematical interrelationship of the elements. The periodic t able points to obvious design. Such amazing design could not possibly be accidental, a product of chance.


This is what convinced me beyond any doubt. Since God cannot be seen, we must reason on his existence by looking at things around us that we can see. Take a good look at the human body

3-. Our Brain is a supercomputer without equal in all the earth. “The brain,” reports one authority, “sorts one hundred million bits of data from the eyes, ears, nose and other sensory outposts each second.. . A computer capable of handling a single brain's output would cover the entire earth.”
4- Our EYES have been described as natural cameras. They are perfect self-cleaning, self-focusing “cameras” that take three-dimensional pictures in living color.
5- Our VOCAL CORDS can produce not only speech but some of the most beautiful music to delight the human ear. The melodies that the human voice can produce
Have a beauty far excelling that of a finely tooled violin.
6- The electrical wiring of an automobile is most primitive when compared with our NERVOUS SYSTEM. This vast network transmits information to and from scores of
Our vital organs with an efficiency that dazzles scientists.
You personally may not have seen the maker of a computer, a camera, a violin or the electrical system of a car, yet you know that the designer of each did exist. His handiwork testifies to his existence and skill. Since no one will hesitate to say that each of these fine inventions had a designer and maker, is it not obvious that no less could be said of our body? “In a fear-inspiring way I am wonderfully made,” observed a wise king over 3,000 years ago.
I believe with all my heart here is a loving Designer of our bodies who is also the Creator of the entire universe. But in spite of such logical reasoning, some persons will still say that there is no God. Why? There is a variety of reasons. The majority have doubts because of the following questions they have not researched and studied so as to get a satisfying answer to the below questions.

a) How could God exist when there is so much wickedness on earth?
b) Would belief in God restrict my lifestyle and take all the fun out of living?
c)What about the hypocrisy among those who profess to believe in God?
d) Is not such belief unscientific and old-fashioned?
Such questions need answering.

Ones you have answered these question satisfactory to your own mind, logic and heart, you will either believe in God or believe that God does not exist. But once you have answered these questions to your satisfaction then and only then can you have trust that builds the faith that is needed to believe that God exists. Remember, first we must examine the matter and meditate on what we find, before trust can come and then we will have faith build on trust and not blind faith that comes from emotions or from what others say, but you will convince yourself that either God exists or he does not. Put forth the effort and your answer will follow.

Take care,
Hope12
:)

Hey, I started to read all the posts, but it is a bit daunting to I skipped ahead. To your post, all I have to say is I believe because He has been there for me in the dark times and I have felt comforted. He sent me a miracle too. When my ex-husband was abusing me, I went to a counselor to talk about my situation which was bleak indeed. Well, when I entered the room, the thought occurred to me, "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you," Well, I deducted that it was only a thought and a remembrance ,as you may, from my Chruch days.

When I returned to my home, my mother called me from 200 miles away to say she was in prayer for me and had a word for me from God. It was the same scripture and was given to her at the same time as I received mine. My life was restored and blessed within nine years after I followed the first part of His instruction, To seek Ye first,"and yes, selfish me... I wanted His love and blessings and forgiveness.

Am I selfish? Yes, in many ways. God understands my weaknesses and still loves me enough to help me. I hope and pray you find all the answers you are looking for. Blessings to you.

By the way, I love to do for others because of the blessings that it gives me to see them light up. Many benefits come from a life of giving and caring. I hope my children are so selfish.

My relationship with a God that I understands needs no labels, only gratitude for all the blessings and guidance I have received and will receive. I am only required to be a good human being to the best of my humble ability

You sound like Karl Marx when he said religion is the opium of the people:

Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man—state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.
Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. [Emphasis added]
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

While I do not ascribe to any Marxist thought, I also do not abscribe to the Bible thumping zealots who you see on television, jumping up and down the podium, tears streaming, wailing, while counting the donations that people send in. It is not the concept of religion I am seeking, it is the relationship with my Redeemer. Very personal.

Your rant is well noted but pardon my disagreement with you.

Hey shy, why not be slow to judgement? What of the home bound that have no way to get the word but from the television? My mother is an invalid and cannot even use a walker and her wheelchair is most uncomfortable for her. I agree that some televangelists are not authentic, how can you speak for all? Have you heard Joel Osteen. He is very inspirational and very kind and loving and gives a lot of practical application to everyday living and doing right for yourself and others and being slow to judge and having a good attitude, etc, etc, etc. I don't see jumping and wailing or a constant demand for contributions or anything of the sort. Just thought you might benefit from seeing another view. Have a wonderful day.

I believe many of us obtain material blessings for having worked for them. This is common to both the world & Christians.
I agree with what one poster said about what matters more-& that is a relationship with the Lord. Man was created to have fellowship with God but because of his stubborn self-will, he chose to go his own independent way, & fellowship with God was broken. This self-will, characterized by an attitude of active rebellion or passive indifference is evidence of what the Bible calls sin.(spiritual separation from God- Romans 6:23)
Enter our Savior, Jesus, who died for the sins of man. John 6:40(Jesus speaking)" For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
God also desired to reunite the Holy Spirit with the human spirit so they could again be one. (The 1st is when Adam & Eve sinned- sin came in & the Spirit went out) When you accept Christ, the Holy Spirit comes to reside in your heart(along with Jesus). Now the Holy Spirit becomes your own personal Counselor, Conscience, Convictor & Comforter. He fills your soul(mind, will & emotions) with perfect truth. John16:13"when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into into all truth" Those who are joined with the Spirit better understand spiritual things(1Corinthians2:14)
Now, I could go on, discussing about the power of the Holy Spirit-but I think it may be too much to read at one time.
I'm am proud to be a Christian. Insomuch as I am only boasting in the Lord. I could do this all day! Lol.

For SexyBeast and Retroia,

I am not talking about the 700 Club or Joel Osteen. I am talking the Benny Hinn's and Jimmy Swaggart's of the world. I support the mission of the 700 Club and I listen to Joel Osteen (actually started when his Father, John, was on television). I never said I was speaking for all televangelists - I said "the Bible thumping zealots who you see on television, jumping up and down the podium, tears streaming, wailing, while counting the donations that people send in". The two examples you both gave do not meet that criteria.

Thanks for clearing that up. Shy. I just love Joel and haven't had the benefit of seeing his father evangalize, From the experience I related about my mom, you can see why I need clarification. Blessings to you and yours. (smile)

You sound like Karl Marx when he said religion is the opium of the people:

Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man—state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.
Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. [Emphasis added]
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

While I do not ascribe to any Marxist thought, I also do not abscribe to the the Bible thumping zealots who you see on television, jumping up and down the podium, tears streaming, wailing, while counting the donations that people send in. It is not the concept of religion I am seeking, it is the relationship with my Redeemer. Very personal.

Your rant is well noted but pardon my disagreement with you.

Tovarich Marx was not slamming religion when he called it 'the opium of the people.' He was describing it as the anodyne for their suffering, the balm for their wounds. If a person's religion does not ease his suffering in this cold and cruel world, then it does him no good and he is better abandoning it and finding somehting better.

M:)

For SexyBeast and Retroia,

I am not talking about the 700 Club or Joel Osteen. I am talking the Benny Hinn's and Jimmy Swaggart's of the world. I support the mission of the 700 Club and I listen to Joel Osteen (actually started when his Father, John, was on television). I never said I was speaking for all televangelists - I said "the Bible thumping zealots who you see on television, jumping up and down the podium, tears streaming, wailing, while counting the donations that people send in". The two examples you both gave do not meet that criteria.

If there are any doubters here, let them send me their rent and mortgage checks. Wghat is it Benjamin ('he shall raven as a wolf!') Hinn said, 'I don't want gold in heaven. I WANT IT NOW!"

This is not the first individual to have doubts. Thomas in the bible doubted. Jesus told Thomas to touch his wounds, to convince him. He died for individuals such as this, so that they may live. This is one of the difficult things non Christians have difficulty understanding. We have individuals such as Pastors, Soldiers, Police Officiers, Fireman, Doctors, Nurses, and the list goes on,etc who have no quams about putting their lives on the line for us to enjoy our freedom. It is not that difficult to understand, only believe. This is why God exalted his name above all names. To understand creation we must first believe there was a creator. Albert Einstein, the more he looked into Gods creation through science. The more he searched for answers, the more he was convinced there was a creator. It could not have just puffed into existence, there had to be someone creating all of this. I tell people if I walked up to you and said you were just hatched. You would look at me like some kind of fool! That is one of the reasons evolution is a fallacy. This is one of the explanations given in the bible. Jesus speaks quite a lot about seeds.There had to be something behind your birth. You just didn't exist or pop into the world. As far as the differences in human beings characters, look into the bible and you will find all your answers. In the book of Genesis after God created everything he saw that it was Good. This was so right up to the first sin in the garden. However God had a plan, he sent the second Adam whose name is Jesus into the world to die for our sin. It really isn't that complicated. The last thing we are reminded of as Christians. To keep our eyes on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. I hope this answers some of your concerns. Just trust him and believe. Attend church and you will be taught these truths.

verycurious,
First of all I believe you are being very judgmental about some Christians.
You may be right about some of them but I believe the majority of them believe in God because He is, that is that He exists and that His good and love.
I do not believe that belief in science has replaced God. Nothing can do that!
Also people from all walks of life believe in God, billions of them in nations around the world, rich and poor alike.
I do not try to judge people, rather I give them the benefit of the doubt,
Why?
Because I can not look into their heart and nether can you,
Also it is God who is the one and only supreme Judge because he can and does know what is in every persons heart and mind.
When people look like to me and you may be accurate and may be not.
I think you are assuming too much about some folks.
You have no proof that they are as you think and say.
Its like walking on a dark night with very little light. It gives you a dim view.
I hope that you will think more kindly of people.
If you do you will be a happier person.
Peace and kindness,
Fred


.

stan200,
I feel very sorry for you.
The God of the bible is a God of service to us with love and mercy and generosity.
Yes he can get very angry with us at times, just like our parents can do so.
With the Ten Commandment and the teaching of Jesus he has given us a blueprint for living that id we follow it we will have a happier, fuller life.
On top of that He has given us the opportunity to live eternally in paradise.
I praise, honor, thank, and love him much for all of that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Albert Einstein was a firm beleiver in God. Jesus is the son of God. He sought evidence to prove otherwise. He used scientific principles to support his beliefs. Science is not a replacement of God. It is one of the evidences he is behind the creation. No different than some using science to identify you through your fingerprints to prove you existed. This was one of the examples Jesus was showing Thomas he existed when most of the world was sceptical in their own beleifs.
He was telling him, you can doubt or not believe who I am. Just touch me and you will know. The bible talks about even a greater thing than seeing is having faith. It is like some
Dad saying to his son. Do not go over there something bad will happen. The son has faith in his dad and listens. Without going over to check it out.

To All Self-Proclaimed Christians


Hi, I'm a Catholic. I'm both a self proclaimed Christian and the fact that I'm a Christian is confirmed by my Church.


A lot of this is not going to make sense, since I’m just basically writing whatever is coming into my mind right now so bear with me.

OK


I have a feeling the people (not all) who claim to love or believe in God only do it because of his ability to put people in heaven or hell.

What's wrong with that? The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.


It's like a mass brown nosing. I wonder whether those same people would still love him if he wasn't so high and mighty. Think about it there are countless of these self-righteous, sanctimonious blockheads that claim belief (some may even be priests) for their own spiritual benefit.

As do I.

I think you misunderstand what "believe in God" means. You think it means "believing that God exists." No. We KNOW He exists. We believe IN His goodness and love.

There's a famous quote from Scripture:
James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Let me give you an example. I know some people whom I trust and some whom I don't.
I "believe in" the ones whom I trust. I don't "believe in" the ones whom I don't trust.
I trust God. I believe God loves me and is doing all that is good for me.

Here's another famous quote from Scripture:
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


And those who do all the self-less acts of giving and volunteering is in a way being selfish I think for it gives them JOY in return, which goes against the definition of selfless.

Whose definition?

It is precisely our definition of selflessness, that it describes one who gets joy and other spiritual consolations from acts of giving and volunteering without asking for any material return.


I realize I’m being extremely cynical right now and am in no way trying to disrespect those who are fully devoted to giving their time and effort for the better cause. But there are those, I might even dare to say a majority of the people (including me) who only do such “selfless” acts to benefit themselves in an effort to improve the look on their resume or college application.

That's true.


That being said, I would much rather like to see a Buddhist who completely devotes himself to his religion without fear or doubt than see a regular Christian who constantly lies to himself.

Why do you characterize a Christian as a liar and a Buddhist as devoted to his religion? Are you a Buddhist?


It makes me sick to look at such overzealous people praise God when their motives are so obvious.

Can you read hearts and minds?


Many old people I see are overzealous (understandably so since their time is running pretty low to make a good impression on God) with their constant preaching and praying.

That actually comes from wisdom.


In addition, I also can't help but think the concept of religion to be nothing, but a mass conspiracy to keep the lower class in control (it sounds paranoid and foolish I know, but it can’t be completely ruled out). Religion has first appeared in an attempt to explain the inexplainable, which has by now has been replaced by science. So with the original purpose of religion gone, it makes sense for others to try to use it to their own advantage as is very apparent throughout history (especially in Catholicism). Without God to give hope of a glorious afterlife, there's no way in hell these lower class people will stand by and be trampled on. They would try to live out their life to the best and mass chaos will roar throughout the globe.

Actually God gave us religion so that we could come to know Him, love Him and live with Him in this life and in the next.


I think the main lesson here is to be practical and accept the fact that there is a chance that God may not exist, but to continue to have faith in Him because nobody can be sure of his existence, for there is no proof and continue to live by His rules and teachings.

Lol. That's pretty funny. How do you have faith in someone that doesn't exist? God exists, you can be absolutely certain of that. Just look at yourself and realize that you are fearfully and wonderfully made. No man could have designed even the most insignificant cell in your body.

Or just look at any other life form. Realize that they couldn't have come about by accident. God LIVES!


That being said, how do you believe when you can’t be sure? I think the better word for it is “trust”. You must trust that God exists and not believe he exists, which I think are different (someone help clarify this point). There’s a difference in saying I believe the Knicks will make it to the Final Four and I trust the Knicks will make it to the Final Four. To trust is to fully understand and accept the fact that He may not exist and yet still have faith whereas to believe is to completely rule out such possibilities and is more like blindly believing something, which for some reason sounds worse.

I believe I've answered that above.


Lol I just realized that instead of asking a question, I've done a rant.
Well the queastion is: Is there a point in religion?

Yes. Love and obey God. If you do, you will be blessed by Him.


Or better yet, what IS religion? Is it a simple reward and punishment system like we do with dogs or something much deeper?

Religion is the system which God gave us to learn about Him, to learn our relationship to Him and our relationship to ourselves and each other.


I would also be interested to read in your comments about what I have said.

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria

One of the examples God gives of his existence is actually in the bible. Abraham was approached by three men. Guess who they are. Jesus commended Abraham in the bible as being both loyal and faithful to him. This is in the very first book of the bible. Abraham was found obedient to God. Now we are not to put our eyes on Abraham, but of the Creator. There is a Gospel song out there that goes something like this. When I get to heaven I see, Abraham, Issac & Jacob. Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John. The Lists goes on.
But that is not who I want to see, I want to see Jesus, the one who died for me!! Forgive me if the words are not exact. It should paint a pretty clear picture of our Saviour.

Albert Einstein was a firm beleiver in God. Jesus is the son of God. He sought evidence to prove otherwise. He used scientific principles to support his beliefs. Science is not a replacement of God. It is one of the evidences he is behind the creation. No different than some using science to identify you through your fingerprints to prove you existed. This was one of the examples Jesus was showing Thomas he existed when most of the world was sceptical in their own beleifs.
He was telling him, you can doubt or not beleive who I am. Just touch me and you will know. The bible talks about even a greater thing than seeing is having faith. It is like some
Dad saying to his son. Do not go over there something bad will happen. The son has faith in his dad and listens. Without going over to check it out.




For me, I don't need a scientific explanation for the existence of God. I find faith works well.

The main reason for this position is that science cannot help us prove metaphysics. At the moment we are stuck with scientific questions only providing scientific answers and metaphysical questions providing metaphysical answers.

When you say, "Science is not a replacement for God" I agree. But I disagree that with,
"It is one of the evidences he is behind creation. No different than someone using science to identify you through your fingerprints to prove you existed".

This is an example of what I mean by scientific questions only providing scientific answers.
We cannot infer any more than fingerprints prove human existence. It is also very difficult to prove anything through analogy.

What you are attempting is to use scientific explanations to provide evidence for God's existence. As far as I am aware no one has been successful.

At best all we can say that we have a hypothesis that could be proven true in the future

You need to understand there were two realms being spoken through the bible. It is one explaining the presence of God though a man. The word became flesh. This is based on a molecular structure that comprises a makeup of man. This is an answer using a scientific answer. The bible goes on to explain the difference in parables and why parables were used. If you read it all you will get your answers. It is not all based on Theory as some suppose it to be. That is why Jesus told Thomas the doubter to touch him. God manifests himself in the flesh. There are those who see things and there are those who do not. This is confirmed in the Bible about a war in the heavenlies. I explained about having faith as being the greatest if you read below that statement. Jesus showed himself many times to individuals who doubted him. There are also things which are hidden for a good reason. Which will be explained later. We are not to doubt Gods workings in our lives, no matter what way he decides to reveal it. Some choose to think as Christians we are just to sit around and watch things happen. Nothing could be further from the truth. From the story of the Lost Coin, to the Good Samaritan, To Abraham bowing before God in Genesis. Because you cannot see something, does not mean it is not either happening or doesn't exist scientifically. Having Faith also says it is, " Being Sure of what we hope for". You are right, you are not aware. There are many things in the bible that a lot of people are not aware of, and they ought to study the word. The bible says, study the word to show you are approved of God. I 'll give you a clear picture. Who were the three individuals Abraham met? Why did he bow down to the ground? Why did he run and have Sarah prepare a meal for them. Genesis 18 is a good place to start or even 17. Jesus confirms this in the New Testament of who Abraham was. We are not to put our eyes on Abraham but God who Abraham worshipped! We are not to have any idols before him. The bible says before Abraham was the I am, referring to God! If you really want some scientific evidence watch this video. It is astounding how God works.
If this does not appear. Look up the word Laminin on Google. The site below is on Youtube. The whole crux of this story is Jesus appeared in the flesh to doubters. They were looking for scientific evidence and Jesus gave it to them.

://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/l/laminin.htm

For me, I don't need a scientific explanation for the existence of God. I find faith works well.
Nor do I need a scientific explanation. Nevertheless, I must disagree, at least in part, with your next statement.


The main reason for this position is that science cannot help us prove metaphysics. At the moment we are stuck with scientific questions only providing scientific answers and metaphysical questions providing metaphysical answers.

When you say, "Science is not a replacement for God" I agree. But I disagree that with,
"It is one of the evidences he is behind creation. No different than someone using science to identify you through your fingerprints to prove you existed".

God is the source of all creation, His will is truth. We can go as far as to say that God is Truth; or God=Truth. Consequently, any truth revealed to us, whether it is through God's revelation, mathematics, science, metaphysics, theology, or a derived truth from good ol' trial and error, is to reveal, in part, the nature of God. Thus, a mathematical proof of Einstein's theorem of relativity is as much from God as the Scriptures themselves. The problem seems to be confusing relativity in truth as truth; 'relative' truth is a null set. Truth is absolute; any truth is absolutely of God.

JoeT

De Maria,
You answered that question very well.
You even used logic which to is one way to prove God exists.
Answers to prayer is another for me.
God's surprising blessings is another.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Nor do I need a scientific explanation. Nevertheless, I must disagree, at least in part, with your next statement.



God is the source of all creation, His will is truth. We can go as far as to say that God is Truth; or God=Truth. Consequently, any truth revealed to us, whether it is through God’s revelation, mathematics, science, metaphysics, theology, or a derived truth from good ol’ trial and error, is to reveal, in part, the nature of God. Thus, a mathematical proof of Einstein’s theorem of relativity is as much from God as the Scriptures themselves. The problem seems to be confusing relativity in truth as truth; ‘relative’ truth is a null set. Truth is absolute; any truth is absolutely of God.

JoeT

Hi JoeT,

Most truths are relative, especially scientific truths. Truths that are not relative are analytical truths such as found in mathematics, certain types of logic and tautologies.

The problem with analytical truths is that once we apply them to science they become relative. Not the truths themselves, but the theories they are connected to.

You say that Einstein's theories of relativity are as much from God as the scriptures themselves. I am wondering where does this leave other scientists whose theories have been proven wrong in the modern age?

You seem to be espousing a special category of truth which does not seem to be subject to any empirical investigation. If this is the case then I would say that it is analytical truth.

You need to understand there were two realms being spoken through the bible. It is one explaining the presense of God though a man. The word became flesh. This is based on a molecular structure that comprises a makeup of man. This is an answer using a scientific answer. The bible goes on to explain the difference in parables and why parables were used. If you read it all you will get your answers. It is not all based on Theory as some suppose it to be. That is why Jesus told Thomas the doubter to touch him. God manifests himself in the flesh. There are those who see things and there are those who do not. This is confirmed in the Bible about a war in the heavenlies. I explained about having faith as being the greatest if you read below that statement. Jesus showed himself many times to individuals who doubted him. There are also things which are hidden for a good reason. Which will be explained later. We are not to doubt Gods workings in our lives, no matter what way he decides to reveal it. Some choose to think as Christians we are just to sit around and watch things happen. Nothing could be further from the truth. From the story of the Lost Coin, to the Good Samaritan, To Abraham bowing before God in Genesis. Because you cannot see something, does not mean it is not either happening or doesn't exist scientifically. Having Faith also says it is, " Being Sure of what we hope for". You are right, you are not aware. There are many things in the bible that a lot of people are not aware of, and they ought to study the word. The bible says, study the word to show you are approved of God. I 'll give you a clear picture. Who were the three individuals Abraham met? Why did he bow down to the ground? Why did he run and have Sarah prepare a meal for them. Genesis 18 is a good place to start or even 17. Jesus confirms this in the New Testament of who Abraham was. We are not to put our eyes on Abraham but God who Abraham worshipped! We are not to have any idols before him. The bible says before Abraham was the I am, referring to God! If you really want some scientific evidence watch this video. It is astounding how God works.
If this does not appear. Look up the word Laminin on Google. The site below is on Youtube. The whole crux of this story is Jesus appeared in the flesh to doubters. They were looking for scientific evidence and Jesus gave it to them.

://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/l/laminin.htm




Hello Truelife,

I think you are confusing reported observations with science. Any number of observable instances does not constitute a scientific theory. For something to be classified as science it needs to be empirical. In other words there needs to be logical consequence(s) that we can draw from a series of observations. Equally important is that these instances need to be tested. From the information contained in the bible it is difficult if not impossible to formulate a scientific hypothesis based on the accounts you have outlined.I BELIEVE THAT JESUS DID APPEAR IN THE FLESH. What I am saying is that these observations( as true as they are) do not constitute science.

When you say that "Because you cannot see something,does not mean it is not either happening or doesn't exist scientifically" Yes there are many things that were are unaware of. However, when talking science we need to say that the subject matter is observable. Unobserved observations is a contradiction in terms.

Tut,
You said to Joe, "You say that Einstein's theories of relativity are as much from God as the scriptures themselves. I am wondering where does this leave other scientists whose theories have been proven wrong in the modern age?"
The answer to that is all truth comes directly or indirectly from God.
The same with love.
Scientists and other struggling to find truth at times come up with ideas or theories which are wrong but that can be stepping stones to truth when the wrongness is discovered.
It is then that the quest for truth can continue.
I'm certain that in time more scientific evidence of the existence of God will be found in addition to the mathematical and quantum evidence that now exists.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I believe it isn't about religion but about relationship with the one who created us. He created us to NEED a relationship with him. HE wants us to have one with HIM. He is soveriegn, and he is HIGH and MIGHTY but he is LOVE and full of mercy. I'd suggest to stop looking at people or religious people or religion period. I think you have your eyes in the wrong direction. Relationship with the Creator of the Universe is so much more than rules and regulations and traditions. In fact, I'd suggestion it isn't about any of those things.

classyT,
You said, "I believe it isn't about religion but about relationship with the one who created us. He created us to NEED a relationship with him. HE wants us to have one with HIM."
I fully agree and that is why God gave us His religion which gave us His inspired word via the Holy Bible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Hi JoeT,

Most truths are relative, especially scientific truths.
Truth (as an analytic truth or a necessary truth which is true in all possible realms of logic) functions within the intellect and is the processes of knowing, weighing and dissecting both the essence and the accidents (contingent or nonessential attributes) of anything object. We know that truth is desirable in knowledge as good is desirable in nature, thus we see truth is convertible with knowledge as good is with nature; “so the true adds relation to the intellect.” Consequently we can see that, in any supposition, that seeking the truth adds weight to the idea that the proposition is good. The greatest of good is found in God's act of intellect, the measure and cause of all things, thus it “follows not only that truth is in Him, but that He is truth itself, and the sovereign and first truth.” Since truth mirrors the Divine truth and since God is one, we can conclude that there is one truth and that one truth is immutable and eternal. Source: SUMMA THEOLOGICA: Truth (Prima Pars, Q. 16) (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1016.htm#article2)

Truths that are not relative are analytical truths such as found in mathematics, certain types of logic and tautologies.

Baloney.

We know that God and Truth are convertible; St. Thomas says, “Whence it follows not only that truth is in Him, but that He is truth itself, and the sovereign and first truth.” Summa Prima Q, 15 a5. Consequently we can say that there is an absolute infallible truth as there is an absolutely infallible God. If we hold that Truth is absolute then there can be only ONE absolute truth. Absolute truth can't compete for truth as to which is 'truer'.

What special truth do you find in rhetorical repetition?


The problem with analytical truths is that once we apply them to science they become relative. Not the truths themselves, but the theories they are connected to.

Relative to what? So, true is true until it is used as being true, then it's relative to truth; is that what your saying? Nonsense, truth is immutable and eternal.


You say that Einstein's theories of relativity are as much from God as the scriptures themselves. I am wondering where does this leave other scientists whose theories have been proven wrong in the modern age?

Dead men with untrue propositions.


You seem to be espousing a special category of truth which does not seem to be subject to any empirical investigation. If this is the case then I would say that it is analytical truth.

How many categories of truth, outside of absolute truth, are there? Let's see (yes I'm being sarcastic)


• Some truth
• Other truth
• Partial truth
• Low truth
• High truth
• Irrelevant truth
• Relative truth
• Irrational truth
• Subjective truth

We cannot simply hold what 'feels' good, or what supports our life style, or what supports our propositions, as truth because we find a self-serving good.

This, by the way, is why there can be no 'true' commonality in the various Christian faiths. Because, in any two competing faiths, one must be is True and the other must be false or they both must be wrong. The reason should be obvious; truth resides in God, and what resides in God has definitive meaning, the knowledge of which we assign the word 'truth'. Since the Holy Scriptures are inspired by God then for each individual there can be only One Truth just as there is only One Word. It's an obscenity to believe Scripture can have what's described in today's vernacular as 'different strokes for different folks', i.e. relative truth. Therefore, to have competing faiths with which to measure the same Truth, the same Revelation, is self-contradictory. The inverse statement is also true, to have competing truths to measure faith is equally self-contradictory.

The Holy Spirit inspires men to One True faith.


O soul pressed down by the corruptible body, and weighed down by earthly thoughts, many and various; behold and see, if thou canst, that God is truth. For it is written that "God is light;" not in such way as these eyes see, but in such way as the heart sees, when it is said, He is truth [reality]. St. Augustine, On the Trinity, 8,2

JoeT

JoeT,
I do believe that there are PEOPLE who hold to various truths such as those you listed.
But I do agree that there is but one absolute truth and love and that is God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Joe T

I looked up the reference you gave me on the web page for Summa Theologica. I will pass on that because it is obvious that this is the basis of your belief and I respect that.

My only comment is that philosophy has taken a different course since St. Thomas Aquinas' time. Mainly in the ideas of substance, causality and what constitutes knowledge. I am happy to leave it there.

Regards.

Tut.

TUT317,
Yes some have taken a different course on philosophy since St Thomas time but many including me have not.
Philosophy in one of those disciplines which are in a variety, some accepted some not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

It is Love and Light that put this world into being and it will also holds it in place.
Then evil and wickness came to steal kill and destroy, the Love and Light.
The Love and Light can not be destroyed, its power is forever and ever there is
No end to it. Love is patient and kind, not jealous, it does not brag, and is not proud.
Love is not rude, it is not selfish, and does not get upset with others. Love does not count
Up wrongs that have been done. Love is not happy with evil but happy with truth.
Love patiently accepts all things. It always trusts, always hopes, and always remains
Strong. Love never ends. But when perfection comes, the things that are not perfect will end. So these three things continue forever: Faith, Hope, and Love. The greatest of
These is Love. It is Love and Light that over comes evil and wickiness, to be no more.
We live by choices. Choose who you will serve.

Maggie 3

At some point a newbie went back and opened up a two year old thread
** bad newbie*** Please watch the dates on posts, and then others starting responding and so on.

I am closing this since it is a very old thread, two years.