:) Hello everyone,

I have a question for all you Bible scholars. What is the theme of the Bible and what does it have to do with the end of this system of things?

Thanks,
Happyperson

Hi;

The theme of the Bible is: It is God's love letter to us about Jesus. Thus, the Bible is a roadmap that guides us and teaches us how to relate to God, how to relate to others and how to relate to ourselves. :)

Arthur

So let's all go out now and kill us some Canaanites!

The purpose of all creation is to glorify God. Man's salvation or damnation will accomplish this either way. The Bible is part of God's plan as he has chosen that his desire and plan of salvation be by his grace, not man's works, through faith.

So in understanding the way he deals with man you must remember that all things are design and performed with the result of glorifying God and to get man to put his faith in him.

God could simply open the heavens at any time he liked and introduce himself, but this is not how he has decided to glorify himself. It is like the Titanic, once someone opened there month and made the statement that she was unsinkable or not even God could sink her, she was doomed, regardless how many lives would be lost.

Very good reply. I loved your analysis with the titantic.

In His grip!

Arthur

Unfortunately, not many really understand this principle of God's plan and word. His Glory comes first, then man's salvation, e.g. to deny that God is in charge, even of the evil, is to deny him his glory, 9-11, etc. Those who do so have a fanciful Santa for a God.


]Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done [it]?

Hi

The evil which consists in the defect of action is always caused by the defect of the agent. But in God there is no defect, but the highest perfection, Hence, the evil which consists in defect of action, or which is caused by defect of the agent, is not reduced to God as to its cause.

But the evil which consists in the corruption of some things is reduced to God as the cause. And this appears as regards both natural things and voluntary things. For it was said that some agent inasmuch as it produces by its power a form to which follows corruption and defect, causes by its power that corruption and defect. But it is manifest that the form which God chiefly intends in things created is the good of the order of the universe. Now, the order of the universe requires that there should be some things that can, and do sometimes, fail. And thus God, by causing in things the good of the order of the universe, consequently and as it were by accident, causes the corruptions of things, according to 1 Kgs. 2:6: "The Lord killeth and maketh alive." But when we read that "God hath not made death" (Wis. 1:13), the sense is that God does not will death for its own sake. Nevertheless the order of justice belongs to the order of the universe; and this requires that penalty should be dealt out to sinners. And so God is the author of the evil which is Penalty, but not of the evil which is fault, by reason of what is said above.

These passages refer to the evil of penalty, and not to the evil of fault.
The effect of the deficient secondary cause is reduced to the first non-deficient cause as regards what it has of being and perfection, but not as regards what it has of defect; just as whatever there is of motion in the act of limping is caused by the motive power, whereas what there is of obliqueness in it does not come from the motive power, but from the curvature of the leg. And, likewise, whatever there is of being and action in a bad action, is reduced to God as the cause; whereas whatever defect is in it is NOT caused by God, but by the deficient secondary cause.

The sinking of a ship is attributed to the sailor as the cause, from the fact that he does not fulfil what the safety of the ship requires; but God does not fail in doing what is necessary for the safety of all. Hence there is no parity.

Graham3

Hi Visci and Graham,

I enjoyed your answers, nevertheless, the original question was "what is the theme of the Bible"? My answer to this question at first should have been JESUS IS THE THEME OF THE BIBLE (see Luke 19:10) and is now my corrected answer.

The original question was "what is the theme of the Bible"?  My answer to this question at first should have been JESUS IS THE THEME OF THE BIBLE (see Luke 19:10) and is now my corrected answer. [/quote]

Iguess we can just toss out the old testament Huh?

Graham3,

Well has the Scripture spoken, "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

The passage you quote as 1 Kings 2:6 is 1 Samuel 2:6 for reference sake. Why you would think that God did not make death is beyond me, who else would or could have? The Bible has 66 books corresponding to the 66 chapters of Isaiah, the book of "Wis." is not one of them. The proofs of the Bible are self contained. The phrase, "God hath not made death," is not found in his word, seeing he made all things.  


](Proverbs 16:4)  The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

No sir, your sophistry simply robs God of his glory. Who created the lake of fire?


](Matthew 25:41)  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

No sir, God created death just as he did life.


]Samuel 2:3-8
(3)  Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.
(4)  The bows of the mighty men are broken, and they that stumbled are girded with strength.
(5)  They that were full have hired out themselves for bread; and they that were hungry ceased: so that the barren hath born seven; and she that hath many children is waxed feeble.
(6)  The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.
(7)  The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up.
8  He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.

(Deuteronomy 32:39)  See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Satan could not even persecute Job without God's permission and could not kill him.


](Job 1:12)  And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

(Job 2:6)  And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

God rules in the kingdom of men.


](Daniel 4:17)  This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

To say that God is not in control, even of the evil in the world, is to be completely ignorant of his word. There are many more examples I could relate in scripture to support this fact.


]Matthew 10:29  Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

A Jackson,

Certainly Christ and man's salvation is a dominate theme of the Scriptures but it is only part and parcel with the main theme, God's glory.

]
John 12:27-28
27  Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28  Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, [saying], I have both glorified [it], and will glorify [it] again.

Romans 15:9  And that the Gentiles might glorify God for [his] mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

Revelation 15:4  Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? For [thou] only [art] holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

John 13:31  Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.

John 17:1  These words spake Jesus, and lifted his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

Matthew 5:16  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

1 Corinthians 6:20  For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

The over riding theme of the Bible is God's glory, all else is subordinate to that, including the plan of salvation. The Bible describes God as the King of glory, the Lord of glory, the God of glory. "... in his temple doth every one speak of [his] glory," "let the whole earth be filled [with] his glory."

To understand this is the only way to understand God's word and the history of mankind.

Hi Vsicj,

Without Jesus there is no glorifying God. See John 6:44.

Hi Vsicj,

Without Jesus there is no glorifying God. See John 6:44.


]John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Could you explain how you come to that conclusion from John 6:44?


]Isaiah 49:3 And said unto me, Thou [art] my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.


]Ezekiel 28:22 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, O Zidon; and I will be glorified in the midst of thee: and they shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I shall have executed judgments in her, and shall be sanctified in her.


]Haggai 1:8 Go up to the mountain, and bring wood, and build the house; and I will take pleasure in it, and I will be glorified, saith the LORD.

Ysicj

Hi Vsicj,
Tell me if I am wrong. But the question is "what is the theme of the Bible"?

Your answers address what our PURPOSE while here on earth and not what the theme of the Bible is.

If the question was "what is our purpose on earth"? I would agree wholeheartedly that our purpose is to glorify God.

Nevertheless, the theme of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation is Jesus.

Yes, Christ Jesus is a major theme of Scripture, but is secondary to the glory of God. The salvation of man is not the primary theme of the Bible nor the main object of God's plan and creation. If man's salvation was the main object, God would have no problem in saving all men by simply covering all by the blood of Christ automatically.

This is where many have failed in their ministries, compromising the glory of God in favour of the salvation of men failing at both. It is also why their understanding of the Scriptures and its application in history is lacking.

The main theme of Scripture is the glory, honor and majesty of God. The plan of salvation is so constructed as to glorify God. Whenever men glorify themselves, as in the bragging on the unsinkability of the Titanic, God's honor and glory supersede the salvation of men.

You cannot reduce the bible to a single theme, whether that's the theme of god's glory, the redemption of creation, or whatever. Even if we concede that all things are done to god's glory, it does not follow that the glory of god is the theme of the bible. It does not even follow that it is the primary theme.

In my opinion, to discern the theme of the bible, we must take seriously its form. The bible comes to us as a story that is commented upon by the prophets and celebrated in the psalms and analyzed in the proverbs and the other wisdom writings. But the story is primary, and the other stuff is secondary.

So the question "what is the theme of the bible" devolves to "what is the point of the biblical story"?

Mo

I think we can find the answer if we go to the very beginning and the very end of The Bible.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you all. Amen.

Now from this we can tell Jesus Christ is mentioned both in the beginning and in the end. As we study the Bible we find that through out the Old Testament and New Testament Jesus is the focus.

Jesus is a King and therefore a king must have a kingdom. Revelation goes into detail on The Kingdom. Also Jesus told us to pray "Thy kingdom come."


The main theme is the kingdom of God. In the kingdom of God, all of the other suggested major themes are included and given proper place. In addition, the kingdom of God includes other themes important for our understanding of the Bible, such as creation, the Biblical teaching about angels and demons, the doctrine of final judgment and everlasting punishment. Christ Himself remains a central theme of the Bible because as the King, He is the center of the kingdom, its very essence. Redemption as a central theme is understood as the drama of God's restoring the kingdom to its original purpose. For after God created His kingdom, man led it into sin through covenantal rebellion.

The re-occuring theme of the Bible is summed up as or is called Agape "LOVE"

Yours In Christ Jesus,
Rev. Daniel Pangelinan

Be thou not righteous overmuch; for why shouldest thou die?

God is God! He can do anything He wants to do, and still be the Holy One I shall always worship.

What is the theme of the Bible...

In brief, the main theme of the Bible can be summed up as the vindication of God's sovereignty and the sanctification of His name, Jehovah (Psalm 83:18), by means of the Messianic kingdom under the rule of His son, Jesus Christ.

An easy way to understand this is to consider a few key sections. The opening account in the Bible, Genesis chapters 1-3, explains how Jehovah created the earth and placed mankind upon it to care for it. Furthermore, humans would live eternally as long as they remained obedient. Death was only a consequence of deliberate disobedience and sin. But Satan, a rebellious angel, contradicted Jehovah's statement that disobedience would bring death to mankind, thereby challenging God's truthfulness and the rightfulness of His rule. Satan later went even further, claiming that when under trial mankind as a whole would not remain obedient to God out of love, but instead would only obey when they had something to gain. (Job chapters 1 and 2)

The Bible concludes at Revelation with a far-reaching series of prophecies that continue being fulfilled in our day (and still extend into the future.) Revelation 21 begins with these thrilling words:


Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful." (NKJV)

The primary theme of the Bible, then, is a development of the results of Satan's challenge and a gradual revealing of God's purposes regarding how the issues would finally be resolved: the establishment of the Messianic kingdom to vindicate His sovereignty and the restoration of the earthly paradise He originally purposed.

Which then leads us to...


... and what does it have to do with the end of this system of things?

Daniel chapter 2 contains an account of a prophetic dream given to Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar that showed a series of kingdoms or governments that would rule on the earth. After listing the kingdoms, the prophecy concludes at verse 44:


"And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever." (NKJV)

So the establishment of the Messianic kingdom will mean the destruction of all earthly rulership and governments. Note how Revelation 16:14-16 gives more detail:


For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty...And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon. (NKJV)

Many people believe that Armageddon is some kind of global self-destruction, but the Bible explains that it is God's war against the governments of the earth, and it is necessary in order for the Messianic kingdom to rule over the earth. That is what the Bible means by "the end of this system of things." It will mean the removal (at long last) of the wicked earthwide system that has developed since the Garden of Eden under Satan's influence.

This is a lot to cover in a few paragraphs! If/when you have more questions, ask one of Jehovah's Witnesses next time they visit your home.

Chris

First, as some have said in a number of places, let's get this thread back on track. It was originally a question as to the theme of The Bible. Secondly, someone said that there is not one theme of The Bible. However, that is definitely not the case. THE theme of the Bible is Jesus and his sacrifice which was intended to be the means by which all mankind can come to salvation. Yes, God's glory is quite prevalent throughout The Bible. However, as A Jackson pointed out, it is through Christ that God's glory is ultimately shown and proven. In fact, some of YSICJ's own quotes prove this point in opposition to their use in this particular posting. For example, "John 13:31 *Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him."


Now, if anyone is interested, I am going to start a new thread in the hopes of straightening out some misquotes and misunderstandings, in terms of exactly what The Word says. Look for it under the title "His Word." One of the main things I will address is the fact that one needs to quote passages in context and then only after carefully studying various translations, and where possible the original language versions of The Bible.

In His Service,
Hisservant

[QUOTE=ysicj]Quote:
]Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done [it]?
QUOTE]

As a person of many faiths that all are the same in the end in the ultimate reality, Isaiah 45:7 is what I've believed all along. That God is all things, even the evil and has created all things from God's own self. God is the sun, the stars, the space in between, the air, my flesh, the thoughts in my head. There is nothing that is not God. God is all there is.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done [it]?

As a person of many faiths that all are the same in the end in the ultimate reality, Isaiah 45:7 is what I've believed all along. That God is all things, even the evil and has created all things from God's own self. God is the sun, the stars, the space in between, the air, my flesh, the thoughts in my head. There is nothing that is not God. God is all there is.
CELTEARTH, you are free to believe what you like but it's not correct to say that it's scriptural!

In these two scriptures, the KJV translators rendered an original language word as "evil." But this word can mean any of the following depending on context: evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity, adversity, injury, wrong, evil (ethical). Maybe in 17th century England when the KJV was produced, the word "evil" was understood to have a variety of meanings and the readers would not have made the same mistake. Modern translators, however, have been more careful with the context of these verses so we see NIV using "disaster" and the NASB using "calamity."

Is God able to create disaster and calamity? Certainly--for those who are wicked and deserving of such punishment (for example, the Flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and in the future battle of Armageddon.) But that in no way makes him responsible for all disasters nor does it make God the source of moral or ethical evil.

In fact, in all these cases God is taking action to remove moral evil.

Chris

That God is all things, even the evil and has created all things from God's own self. God is the sun, the stars, the space in between, the air, my flesh, the thoughts in my head. There is nothing that is not God. God is all there is.
The more I think about this, the scarier it gets! If we start to think that anything we do is God's will, this can lead to absolute moral chaos.

Someone can justify any action with this thinking...

Chris

CELTEARTH, you are free to believe what you like but it's not correct to say that it's scriptural!

In these two scriptures, the KJV translators rendered an original language word as "evil." But this word can mean any of the following depending on context: evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity, adversity, injury, wrong, evil (ethical). Maybe in 17th century England, the word "evil" was understood to have a variety of meanings and the readers would not have made the same mistake. Modern translators, however, have been more careful with the context of these verses so we see NIV using "disaster" and the NASB using "calamity."

Is God able to create disaster and calamity? Certainly--for those who are wicked and deserving of such punishment (for example, the Flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and in the future battle of Armageddon.) But that in no way makes him responsible for all disasters nor does it make God the source of moral or ethical evil.

In fact, in all these cases God is taking action to remove moral evil.

Chris

My point is - what about all the translations not just from 17th century to now, but also the 1600 years before that. What about the political people in power who had the power to burn books, and change things the way they saw fit. I think the Also I don't think God has a penis and testicles nor a deep voice for that matter, so I wouldn't call God a him.

And what's up with all these people getting all up in arms about a book that was written by men from the middle east over 2000 years ago. Most American's think people from the middle east think backwards. What makes people think they thought any better 2000 years ago? I mean Revelations is so twisted and fantasy like with dragons, chariots and trumpets, what makes one think the stories of Sodom and Gomorrah aren't any more of wild stories written by men with wild imaginations interpretting the events around them the way they imagined them to be. In the middle east, many women have to walk behind their husbands because of dominion over them, not unlike pieces of meat for their own pleasure. How different is the bible in describing women's role in the world?

My interpretation of the bible is that it's nothing more than political and social issues written by prejudiced, biggotted men from the middle east. The only one that made any sense in the bible was Jesus, the rest of it is simply political garbage that people spew forth to justify their own interests and wishes.

Just to prove how psychotic the people were back then, just look at what they did to Jesus, a good, and pure person. I really don't think I'm going to listen to anything written by them. I will however, listen to the positive things Jesus had to say. Love is all there is, the rest is just garbage.

The more I think about this, the scarier it gets! If we start to think that anything we do is God's will, this can lead to absolute moral chaos.

Someone can justify any action with this thinking...

Chris

So you are separate from God then, you separate yourself by saying you are not a part of God. However, I did not say that choices people make are God's will, meaning "this is what God wants" but what I mean is that all possibilities are available to us to choose what we wish, We have free will. However, all the choices are available to us because of God. God is all there is.

It sounds to me like most Christians believe god is all there is, but just don't know it. For example, if Jesus's death was God's will, then were all the people who were involved in his death just like robots lead by god. No, they made their choices, they had free will. But some people would say that only evil could drive the people to do such a horrible act, so it must be the devils work. So what's it going to be. Christians can't make up their minds about God or the Devil, who's making who do what?

I'd say people have to stop blaming other things like the devil and start taking responsibility for their own actions because on earth all options are open to us, we have free will.

Some say God has the power to destroy - (sounds like Zeus to me, even the description of God in the Old bible seems to be an awful lot like Zeus). See the problems here, it's because the bible is so convoluted and full of contradictions that people simply interpret things as they wish. Why? Because not so smart people wrote it 2000 years ago in caves in the middle east.

My interpretation of the bible is that it's nothing more than political and social issues written by prejudiced, biggotted men from the middle east. The only one that made any sense in the bible was Jesus, the rest of it is simply political garbage that people spew forth to justify their own interests and wishes.
Well, Jesus didn't view the scriptures that way. What about all the times he said "It is written"? What about all the scriptures Jesus himself quoted and fulfilled? Surely if we respect him, and he respected them, we should not be so hasty to dismiss the scriptures as garbage.

The Bible simply isn't the way you describe it. Maybe somebody else made it look that way to you but it's not the truth.

Chris

See the problems here, it's because the bible is so convoluted and full of contradictions that people simply interpret things as they wish. Why? Because not so smart people wrote it 2000 years ago in caves in the middle east.
I went round and round with someone else about this recently and it turned out that what he called contradictions were actually either silly claims made by others about what the Bible said or else passages taken out of context and willfully misapplied. It had nothing to do with what the Bible itself said. He just wanted to insist that the Bible was corrupt and would not consider any reasoning or evidence.

Is that how you feel, or are you willing to take an open-minded look to see if perhaps you haven't been shown what the Bible really says?

BTW, some of those who wrote the Bible include kings and a physician, not really "not so smart people...in caves." But they all gave credit to God for what they did and wrote.

Chris

Bush is the current "king" or emperor as you may. Do you think he's smart. LOL. And he also said God whispered in his ear.

What about the book Conversations with God. Have you ever read it? He claims what is written in his books are inspired by God. So, for some reason, many Christians believe that God talked to people thousands of years ago to write books, but doesn't do so today. Why not?

Quick contradiction - God is all loving and all forgiving, but he'll send you to burn in hell to suffer for eternity. God gives you free will, but you'll go to hell if you don't follow his politics.

Bush is the current "king" or emperor as you may. Do you think he's smart. LOL. And he also said God whispered in his ear.
My point is the Bible writers were not illiterate bushmen as you seem to think. In fact, the prophet Daniel held a high-level position in the court of the king of Babylon. Even those who had humble lives cannot be dismissed like you are doing. After all, a postal clerk came up with the theory of relativity.

As to whether God whispered in W's ear, you can judge by his actions if it's true. Just because someone claims to be a Christian doesn't mean they are. As in all things, judge by comparing their actions with their words.

So, for some reason, many Christians believe that God talked to people thousands of years ago to write books, but doesn't do so today. Why not?
Because the Bible is complete and God continues to speak to all mankind through it. The Bible itself tells us that miraculous gifts like prophecy, speaking in tongues and further writings would eventually cease.

Before I learned what the Bible said I used to say I'd change my mind about God if he actually spoke to humans from heaven like he used to. But you know what? Even people in Jesus' day who saw miracles and heard God speak didn't believe. It's the heart that matters. Those who genuinely seek God with honest hearts and open minds will recognize the truth when they see it in the Bible. But if those who do not want God will deny a voice from heaven or even a resurrection before their very eyes, how do you think they will view a book?

It's Godly wisdom to provide a book that can distinguish people's inner selves. It is a genuine miracle and evidence of divine inspiration. No human could have produced such a book, let alone 40 men over 1600 years...

Quick contradiction - God is all loving and all forgiving, but he'll send you to burn in hell to suffer for eternity. God gives you free will, but you'll go to hell if you don't follow his politics.
Quick answer: that's one of those "silly claims made by others" that isn't true. The Bible does not teach that God keeps his own private torture chamber. Many churches teach this, but they have deviated from what the Bible really says. Think about these scriptures:


In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. -- Genesis 3:19


For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. -- Romans 6:23


For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. -- Ecclesiastes 9:5


And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. -- Jeremiah 7:31
The Bible teaches that the penalty for sin is death--returning to the dust--in other words, nonexistence, with no thought or pain. Not an eternity of conscious torture. No loving God would do what the hellfire doctrine claims. It's more than silly, actually. It's downright blasphemous!

As far as freewill is concerned, you must decide what you want. You seem to be saying you want the freedom but no consequences or responsibility for your actions, but you know it just doesn't work that way. Freedom of choice is always relative.

You are granted freewill but in order to benefit fully you must exercise it within the guidelines God establishes.


Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea: -- Isaiah 48:17-18

Chris

This thread is a good example of why organised religionis a big pain in the . Even people form the same religion will argue about the tedious things - can't agree on anything. This has been the cause of wars and deaths for thousands of years. Not for me, no thank you, I'd rather hang around good people whose views are not blinded by their so-called faith and who won't chastise you for your different points of view.

Because the Bible is complete and God continues to speak to all mankind through it. The Bible itself tells us that miraculous gifts like prophecy, speaking in tongues and further writings would eventually cease.

I'm sorry, I can't believe that the entire universe and all that is within it could be contained in one book written by men. It's also a convenient thing for the writers to say that this book is complete and God can't speak to people after the bible except through the words that those men wrote, because it gives those men the upper hand in saying they are the one's God chose. Isn't that what all wars are about anyway. The old "I'm the chosen one" attitude. I mean look at the bible, according to this Jewish book of God, Israel is the Chosen land and the Jews are the chosen people, everyone else are gentiles. Well of course the Jewish people would say this, it's a Jewish book for goodness sake.


Before I learned what the Bible said I used to say I'd change my mind about God if he actually spoke to humans from heaven like he used to. But you know what? Even people in Jesus' day who saw miracles and heard God speak didn't believe. It's the heart that matters. Those who genuinely seek God with honest hearts and open minds will recognize the truth when they see it in the Bible. But if those who do not want God will deny a voice from heaven or even a resurrection before their very eyes, how do you think they will view a book?

Buddhism is the perfect example. Buddhism teaches in much nicer terms, to just shut up your own mind and listen to God, the God within. Which is also what Jesus taught. Buddhism is greatly revolved around meditation. That is, listening to God. Christianity focuses more on praying, that is your own thoughts and desires projected to God. There's a problem there, your own desires get in the way. Praying often involves wanting or asking for something, but not always of course. I do believe ask and you shall receive though.


It's Godly wisdom to provide a book that can distinguish people's inner selves. It is a genuine miracle and evidence of divine inspiration. No human could have produced such a book, let alone 40 men over 1600 years...

And why not? It's just that with the Roman empire, this book was pushed on people and people were made to accept it as the one and only book of the universe.

Quick answer: that's one of those "silly claims made by others" that isn't true. The Bible does not teach that God keeps his own private torture chamber. Many churches teach this, but they have deviated from what the Bible really says. Think about these scriptures:



In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. -- Genesis 3:19

That could have easily been written by man, it's quite a simple minded matter.



For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. -- Romans 6:23

That was could have easily been written by man, and could you elaborate on ALL the interpretations the bible explains this DEATH to be from front cover to back. I'm sure you'll find some hellishness in there.





For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. -- Ecclesiastes 9:5
Poor them. I guess god didn't love the dead enough to give them a second chance. Could you please explain why some people are born with debilitating lives. Why would God give some the opportunity from birth to lead a great life and others a horrible existence from the moment they enter the world, where's the freedom here. I'd say a more balanced and loving God would grant them karma, I mean didn't Jesus say that people must be born again to reach the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, you must purify yourself through being born again. I really don't think God only gives people a measly 70 years on average or less to do everything in their souls existence to become pure and godlike, to return to the source. What about the people born in the jungles who know nothing of Jesus their whole lives. You mean to tell me, they'll just turn into dust again. As if God doesn't love them enough to allow them eternal life. These are just some of the things, this book - that claims to be the be all and end all of existence - simply doesn't answer.



And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. -- Jeremiah 7:31

Good gosh, people were psycho back then. Burning people, I wonder what was going on in peoples heads back then. Oh, then again this kind of stuff still goes on in the middle east. Heck, it even went on in America not so long ago.


The Bible teaches that the penalty for sin is death--returning to the dust--in other words, nonexistence, with no thought or pain. Not an eternity of conscious torture. No loving God would do what the hellfire doctrine claims. It's more than silly, actually. It's downright blasphemous!

It's disgusting for people to say that God would be so evil.


As far as freewill is concerned, you must decide what you want. You seem to be saying you want the freedom but no consequences or responsibility for your actions, but you know it just doesn't work that way. Freedom of choice is always relative.

You've definitely taken my words and twisted them, if you read a previous post you'll see that I think people should be responsible for all their actions. Karma, it'll come back to you. An eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth, what you do will come back to you. It's the law of relativity, a universal law which is part of the universe which God created. That's why the whole devil thing is so ridiculous, it's casting blame on some myth outside yourself, people have choice and you reap what you sow.


You are granted freewill but in order to benefit fully you must exercise it within the guidelines God establishes.
And yet again, dictator God gives you free will, but as long as you live the laws those men, politicians and kings who wrote it you'll be OK. (complete sarcasm)



Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea: -- Isaiah 48:17-18

Oh, there's that whole Israel thing again, of course a Jewish book glorifies Israel. I mean could it be any other way really. Everyone else are simply the gentiles. Oh and hmmm, lets see, an Arabic book, the Koran glorifies the Muslims. Oh how convenient. I wonder how that happened. Hmmm, is it the whole, I'm right their wrong attitude. God loves us, the rest are outsiders.

Also wouldn't you say, that it's the politicians and religious leaders that killed Jesus because they saw him as a threat. That he was taking so many people from the other churches, because his following started to grow so much. The religious leaders, hand in hand with the politicians, decided that Jesus was such a great threat to their money making churches that he must be done away with. That in the minds of the religious leaders, Jesus was corrupting the minds of people from those churches/ or synagogues,of course, and they would lose their power over the masses, their money.

Poor them. I guess god didn't love the dead enough to give them a second chance.
The Bible promises a resurrection that will provide many with the "second chance" you are looking for.


Could you please explain why some people are born with debilitating lives. Why would God give some the opportunity from birth to lead a great life and others a horrible existence from the moment they enter the world, where's the freedom here.
I don't have time to answer all these points. Try this for now:

Why Does God Allow Us to Suffer? (http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/2003/1/1/article_01.htm)


These are just some of the things, this book - that claims to be the be all and end all of existence - simply doesn't answer.
All of these questions and more are answered. Just because someone told you the Bible doesn't have such answers doesn't make it so. Have you EVER looked for yourself rather than just blindly accepting what others say?

If all the beliefs and teachings you mention are confusing and contradictory, have you considered the possibility that the teachings are the problem, not the Bible?


You've definitely taken my words and twisted them, if you read a previous post you'll see that I think people should be responsible for all their actions.
Didn't you say...

God gives you free will, but you'll go to hell if you don't follow his politics.
I'm assuming your position is that it was a contradiction for God to provide freewill but then set limits and consequences for abusing it. Since eternal torture in hell is baloney, I'm assuming your beef is really with the "limits" on freewill. If you think people should be responsible for their actions, then what exactly is your issue with God placing boundaries on free will? Doesn't a boundary or limit mean there is responsibility and a consequence for going beyond it? Otherwise, it's not a boundary.

If you agree, then I apologize--my mistake. But isn't the alternative saying you want the freedom to choose but you don't want responsibility for the outcome?


That's why the whole devil thing is so ridiculous, it's casting blame on some myth outside yourself, people have choice and you reap what you sow.
Jesus didn't view the devil as a myth. I can't figure out your real view--you say you believe what Jesus says but then you deny what he said and believed. What parts of Jesus' teachings, if any, do you accept?


And yet again, dictator God gives you free will, but as long as you live the laws those men, politicians and kings who wrote it you'll be OK.
Dictator? I don't get that. In what way are God's requirements dictatorial? In the teaching to love others as yourself? In the golden rule? In insisting on honesty, morality and humility? If everyone followed the Bible's teachings, there would be no war, no crime, no hunger, no oppression. Some dictatorship!

What you're really saying is, you want to decide for yourself what is right and wrong and you don't want someone else telling you what to do or not to do--even if such actions are harmful to yourself and others.

Well, that's the same freedom that Adam and Eve insisted on.


God loves us, the rest are outsiders.
The Bible shows that God offers life to any who really want it and are willing to respect the boundaries he sets.


Also wouldn't you say, that it's the politicians and religious leaders that killed Jesus because they saw him as a threat. That he was taking so many people from the other churches, because his following started to grow so much. The religious leaders, hand in hand with the politicians, decided that Jesus was such a great threat to their money making churches that he must be done away with. That in the minds of the religious leaders, Jesus was corrupting the minds of people from those churches/ or synagogues,of course, and they would lose their power over the masses, their money.
Absolutely. Christendom, and any other organization that mixes religion with politics, is all about money and power. But the Bible is not Christendom. Christendom claims to follow the Bible, but they don't.

The merging of religion and politics has been the source of the most heinous wickedness in history. The Bible wisely instructs to keep separate from "the world."

OK, I've made an honest effort to ask you to reconsider what the Bible says. If you've made up your mind, I don't want to argue. This thread is looking more and more like the last guy who went round and round, throwing out every kind of accusation he could find but not agreeing to settle any individual point.

Chris

the evil idea's that have been planted by satin
I never trusted satin, that's why I always buy silk.

I never trusted satin, that's why I always buy silk.
ROFL!

And Paul, please, give it a rest. It's the off-the-wall stuff you're writing that makes people question the Bible.

Chris

You have asked a question that is best answered by experience; however, the Bible holds Truths, Words of Life and Light to dispel darkness; therefore, the theme of the Bible = Life in the Kingdom of God; As far as the end of this world's system, you must first understand principles of Faith, if you are relating this question unto How a believer in Jesus Christ must live and acquire that which is needed, wanted; Now if you are referring to the New Heaven and the New Earth, man without revelation from God can not sufficiently answer you

I've been away. Anyway. This is about the bible and the catholic church and a movie that's coming out.

OK so you know the movie - The Exorcism of Emily Rose. Well, in the preview on TV the priest kissed the crucifix, I thought this was very much related to magic. I suspect in the film the priest is to use this crucifix in some way to exorcise emily; banish evil. As in a magic talisman or object that has been given "powers". An object that has had a spell cast upon it, or an object that transmits powers because of either intention or a channeling of energy.

This seems quite Pagan/wiccan to me. What do you think?

Also what about the rituals of drinking the blood and eating the flesh of Jesus, isn't this quite bizarre and relates much to the sacrifice of animals. What I don't understand is how people think that killing a living creature gets them in the good book of God and God showers down blessings and gifts for such a barbaric thing. It's quite disgusting. These types of things are still done in the middle east where I think last year the blood bath had 1.7 million cows and lambs slaughtered in the streets causing rivers of blood. I just don't understand this barbaric behaviour and how it's meant to be heavenly, it's quite limbic I'd say. Just like jesus was compared to the sacrificial lamb, ughh. It's so very limbic. In the case of Jesus slaughter by politicians and church leaders, the gift from God was eternal life. Ughh, isn't that limbic! It all stems from the same backwards thinking of sacrificing someone or something else's life for your own well being. How demented and selfish. I think humans are so selfish.

your wrong miss cel,you have confused the meaning of symbolism,to such an extent that you have lost the meaning of the actions of christ on earth,and miss cel to do that tell me your comments are directed at yourself and your lack of understanding.iknow it is not easy to grasp certain issues in all fields of life but it does remain true regardless of interputations,or intellectual presentation.miss cel continue to study the word of god .and get information on the symbolisms of the bible it may give you a better understanding.

Duh. I know what the symbolism is. Ughh! You're self righteous ego has got you going on an attitude of negativity AGAIN. Regardless of it's symbolism, the Literal actions are barbaric, I think God would choose a much more enlightened approach. I mean would omnipotent God really need to put his Son through such torture. No, of course not. God has a choice, but without the devil Jesus has no purpose. So it is the Devil who has the power in this religion, the power to cause God to have his own Son suffer to save the people from this all powerful Devil man. Ughh, that is so lame, so Limbic and shows weakness in God. It's ridiculous. It's amazing that a religion is built around Satan. Heaven and hell are here on earth, now and forever. Jesus said that. So by believing so fervently in the Devil you create that consciousness, you keep the consciousness of Satan alive. I mean honestly how many wars have been started over fights because of religious dogma. It's evil, it's not love. If your mind lets go of the fear, embraces the love, then you become closer to God, but by holding onto these fearful beliefs you grow further from God because God is Love.

Do you know anything about Taoism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Paganism, Sufism, Gnosticism, Islam, etc. No? Your brain only holds about 1000 and so odd pages of words written by middle eastern men over years compilated in a book? If that, I suspect only just a few stories and dogmas here and there that were told to you by your elders who had their own ideas and interpretations. Just think of this - No 2 people think EXACTLY alike. Nobody will agree 100% with someone else's interpretation of the bible. So who's right? Nobody, it's their own ideas, it always is.

The bible is outside you, God is within. Quiet your mind, let go of your own thoughts that stem from those imposed on you by a book, by churches and by society. God is within, all the answers are found there, if you listen. The kingdom of God is within you - Jesus said that. All religions are one religion, it is all the same in the end. We are all from the same Source, it's these external things that get us further from remembering the Source. God is God and nobody can change that. God is for all, not just those who read a book written by middle eastern men. Forget the dogma, and see the light. The rules, regulations, politics, rituals are for not. Love is all there is, Love is all that matters. Love your neighbor, not your politics. If you are so stuck in the politics you'll never be able to experience the peace of God.

The overriding theme that permeates the whole Bible is the vindication of God’s sovereignty and the ultimate fulfillment of his purpose for the earth, by means of his Kingdom under Christ, the promised Seed, was wrapped up in the first prophecy concerning ‘the seed of the woman.’Ge 3:15

God told Abraham: “By means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves.” Ge 22:18 Over 800 years later, renewed assurance was given to Abraham’s descendant King David, and with the passing of more time God’s prophets kept this flame of hope burning brightly. (2Sa 7:12, 16; Isa 9:6, 7) More than 1,000 years after David and 4,000 years after the original prophecy in Eden, the Promised Seed himself appeared, Jesus Christ, the legal heir to “the throne of David his father.” Lu 1:31-33; Ga 3:16
This Kingdom under Christ the Promised Seed is the means by which the vindication of Jehovah’s name will be accomplished. Following through on this theme, the Bible magnifies God’s personal name to a greater extent than any other book; the name occurs throughout the Bible as “Jehovah”.
Yes “God’s Kingdom “ it the theme of the Bible, and under Jesus Christ’s rule as the king of that kingdom Jehovah God’s name will be known to all and his purpose will be fulfilled when Jesus rules the earth as king of that long waited Kingdom.
Take care,
Hope12
:o

Graham3,
That was an excellent post.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

The Bible as a whole does not have one single theme, because the Bible is not one single book.

It is discrete a collection of monographs dealing with the history of God's people at various times, and in different and differing circumstances.

The one thing that it does show as a constant, is that God is involved in human history and that He is concerned for the temporal and eternal salvation of his children, but that is not a theme in the correct literary sense of the word.

The Bible is a collection of separate books or letters written over a vast period. Even wiohting the books themselves there are a variety of themes or subjects as different matters and events are addressed.

MORGANITE

You are right.
There are several what could be called strong threads going through all the books of the Bible.
One of them is religion.
Another is service
Another is love.
Another is mercy
And there are others.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
:)

This is my story and I'm sticking to it.

The main true theme of the bible is to treat others as you would have them treat you. Treat all men as you would yourself because we are all one, a part of "god" (the great creative consciousness). That's it. Period.
There are some moral values thrown in there that are fine and dandy and good to live your life by but, bear in mind, they are created by man.

The rest is actual history but it is a re-written, condensed and bastardized compilation of crap invented by the church to promote fear so that people will come blindly to the church and let it do what it wants to do. To promote itself, for it's own power.

This is my story and I'm sticking to it.

The main true theme of the bible is to treat others as you would have them treat you. Treat all men as you would yourself because we are all one, a part of "god" (the great creative consciousness). That's it. Period.
There are some moral values thrown in there that are fine and dandy and good to live your life by but, bear in mind, they are created by man.

The rest is actual history but it is a re-written, condensed and bastardized compilation of crap invented by the church to promote fear so that people will come blindly to the church and let it do what it wants to do. To promote itself, for it's own power.
My name is Need and I support this 100%.

This is my story and I'm sticking to it.

The main true theme of the bible is to treat others as you would have them treat you. Treat all men as you would yourself because we are all one, a part of "god" (the great creative consciousness). That's it. Period.

There are some moral values thrown in there that are fine and dandy and good to live your life by but, bear in mind, they are created by man.

The rest is actual history but it is a re-written, condensed and bastardized compilation of crap invented by the church to promote fear so that people will come blindly to the church and let it do what it wants to do. To promote itself, for it's own power.

Thank you for your opinion. I value it, and you are welcome to it.

I will only add as a final note on the subject, that your view of the Bible is an outside view. That is, it is the view of someone who really does not know the Bible and its history.

If you were ever to become acquainted with it, you would find it impossible to hold on to your present assessment of what the Bible is.


I gather from your post and the language that you use, that you are not open to quiet and reasonable discussion on the several points that you address.

That being so, I will bid you a good day, and wish you well.


MORGANITE

I am acquainted with the bible. I have read it, word for word, at least 4 times. From cover to cover. I have also extensively researched the bible and other writings. How do you know what I have or have not read?
I am not here to argue with people!
I am here to encourage another viewpoint besides the bible and religion.
I am accused of not being open minded!
Ha!

Keenu, you said,

The rest is actual history but it is a re-written, condensed and bastardized compilation of crap invented by the church to promote fear so that people will come blindly to the church and let it do what it wants to do. To promote itself, for it's own power.[/QUOTE]

Please provide accurate historical proof of that, not some detractor's' opinion.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

I gather from your post and the language that you use, that you are not open to quiet and reasonable discussion on the several points that you address.

MORGANITE
I'm watching the religion discussions and they are anything but reasonable and quiet. Most people in these threads share the same religion yet can't agree on anything. This is why so many are killed because of religion. If you were all in the same room you would resort to violence in a minute. I don't want any part of that.

Get a life kids. Take your mind off semantics.

I'm please to inform you that...
In reality if we were in a room together in the U.S.A. it is very unlikely that violance would take place.
We are not fighters, we are lovers of God and each other.
We may disagree on some points, interpretations, or dogma, but we all agree that we are to emulated the author of Love and Life.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
:)

I am acquainted with the bible. I have read it, word for word, at least 4 times. From cover to cover. I have also extensively researched the bible and other writings. How do you know what I have or have not read?
I am not here to argue with people!
I am here to encourage another viewpoint besides the bible and religion.
I am accused of not being open minded!
Ha!

I am not sure that the above reply was intended for me, but I hope that you realise that I am attempting to establish a gentle dialogue with you on some of these matters.

If you are wiling to proceed on that basis, then we can deal.

MORGANITE

I am not sure that the above reply was intended for me, but I hope that you realise that I am attempting to establish a gentle dialogue with you on some of these matters.

If you are wiling to proceed on that basis, then we can deal.

MORGANITE
Yes, to you. I am certainly interested in continuing dialogue...
The way I write does not, obviously, come across as being friendly...
Later, Patty

Later, Patty
Are you HANK?

Very good rely.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura) :)

Keenu, you said,

The rest is actual history but it is a re-written, condensed and bastardized compilation of crap invented by the church to promote fear so that people will come blindly to the church and let it do what it wants to do. To promote itself, for it's own power.

Please provide accurate historical proof of that, not some detractor's' opinion.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

That would be hard to do since they so cleverly hide their deviant behaviours.

Also, could you provide accurate historical proof that your bible is correct word for word cover to cover. Please do. Since you require proof you might as well show yours.

Once you have provided accurate historical proof regarding you claim about the Bible.
Then I will provide what you asked for.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
:)

Once you have provided accurate historical proof regarding you claim about the Bible.
Then I will provide what you asked for.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
:)
Nice job in completely evading the question. Blind faith will do this to you.
Peace and kindness,
Need.

Correction,
I did not avoid the question.
I first asked that a wild statement about the bible being proven.
No answer.
But I was asked a different question in regard to my question.
I said I would answer that WHEN I got the answer to the one I asked.
Please don't twist what I say,
Maybe it will help your karma.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura) :)

Correction,
I did not avoid the question.
I first asked that a wild statement about the bible being proven.
No answer.
But I was asked a different question in regard to my question.
I said I would answer that WHEN I got the answer to the one I asked.
Please don't twist what I say,
Maybe it will help your karma.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura) :)

Since the bible is so dogmatically accepted as being true by multitudes of people, then I think the oweness is on you and others like you to show those who don't blindly follow it, the proof. Otherwise you are just foolishly following something and claiming it to be true with no backup and expect the rest of us to be sheeple. You're just playing a game with words to avoid showing proof of the bible you so fervently believe. Those of us who find the flaws are simply searching for the truth because the bible doesn't answer questions as it is so vague and likely written by chimpanzees. LOL.

The world isn't flat.

:) Hello everyone,

I have a question for all you Bible scholars. What is the theme of the Bible and what does it have to do with the end of this system of things?

Thanks,
Happyperson


happyperson, actually there are two as per the ot and nt. The ot was god showing us how to live by laws, that were unattainable
And the nt shows us how to live by the grace of jesus christ through love. Hope this helps.

Are you HANK?


I am not and never have been called Hank. Maybe you didn't meanme, but it followed one of my posts.


MORGANITE

Keenu Said
"The rest is actual history but it is a re-written, condensed and bastardized compilation of crap invented by the church to promote fear so that people will come blindly to the church and let it do what it wants to do. To promote itself, for it's own power."
I asked for proof of that statement, not proof of the Bible.
That's what I expect before I answer the question asked of me.
Such wild statements need to be aired out, before some uninformed person gets to believing them.
Peace and kindnmess,
Fred (arcura)
:p

Keenu Said
"The rest is actual history but it is a re-written, condensed and bastardized compilation of crap invented by the church to promote fear so that people will come blindly to the church and let it do what it wants to do. To promote itself, for it's own power."
:p

There is a lot wrong with that statement, although I believe I know where Keenu is coming from with it.


Keenu's long and complicated sentence eventually conjoins "actual history" and "crap."

Well, which is it? It cannot be both. It is either "actual history," or else it is "crap," which cannot be actual history.

Keenu says some it has been re-written. But which parts does he/she say are re-written, and why does he/she say that. I am inviting Keenu to set out the evidence for that statement. I do not say that I disagree with it, altogether, although I can not go as far as I believe Keenu wants me to go.

Keenu says that it has been condensed. What does he mean by that? Which parts have been condensed, and how does he know they have? In short, what is his prima facie and substantive evidence for that allegation?

Keenu says that the Bible has been "bastardized." An interesting phrase, but what, in the context nof the Bible, are we expected to make of it? Bastardized! I would appreciate an explanation and the provision of evidence of sorts to support that claim.

Keenu calls the Bible a compilation. On this point I need no more evidence than that furnished with my own eyes as I leaf through a Bible and see that it is indeed a collection - a compilation - of separate books, written by different writers.

Keenu calls the Bible "crap." Does he mean that everything in the Bible is "crap," or does he mean that certain parts of it are "crap," and the rest of it is "actual history?"

Perhaps Keenu will be kind enough to explain what it is.

As for it being "actual history" AND "crap" at the same time (!), perhaps he refers to Henry Ford's statement that "History is junk." Who knows.

Was the Bible invented by "The Church"? Ask a Jew.

Was it made to force people to church? If so, did it work? Did it fulfill its purpose of forcing people to church among illiterate populations who could not read what was written on its pages, and there were no pictures?

I go to church. Do I go because, as Keenu affirms, I am blind (ignorant, stupid, etc) and afraid? I admit to neither of those.

What I will admit to is a keen interest in Keenu's position on the Bible and also the source of his/her evidence and information that has put him/her in that position.

I sincerely hbope that Keenu will take the time to respond in a nice calm way and with the evidence requested. This could be an interesting and enjoyable discussion.

MORGANITE

:)

Morganite,
That's a lengthy breakdown of exactly what I want in the answer from Keenu.
Thanks. Glad to see that you are also interested.
But don't hold your breath.
He hasn't answered since I first asked it over a week ago.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura) :)

If I am not mistaken, Keenu has read some article or other, perhaps even a whole book, I don't know, that deals with thr transmission of Bible documents down to our English versions.

There are little seeds of truth in some of his statements, but in the end he/she goes overboard and tries to swallow himself.

There is a lot to discuss in the process of writing, editing, redacting, etc. the Bible books, but they mnust be seen against their own backgrounds, and understanding of these processes must be brought to bear to show whatreally happened and why.

It is not enough to dismiss the whole porocess with statemnts that are unsupported except by someone's imagination or hostile opinion.

I look forward to Keenu's return to the discussion table.


MORGANITE


:)

As do I await.
But I'm 72 years old and I'm hoping to see Keenu's answer within the next few years or sooner. Time's awasting.
Fred (arcura) :)

Keenu Said
"The rest is actual history but it is a re-written, condensed and bastardized compilation of crap invented by the church to promote fear so that people will come blindly to the church and let it do what it wants to do. To promote itself, for it's own power."
I asked for proof of that statement, not proof of the Bible.
That's what I expect before I answer the question asked of me.
Such wild statements need to be aired out, before some uninformed person gets to believing them.
Peace and kindnmess,
Fred (arcura)
:p

But you don't question any bible dogma, arcura as being wild statements?

:) Hello everyone,

I have a question for all you Bible scholars. What is the theme of the Bible and what does it have to do with the end of this system of things?

Thanks,
Happyperson


Happyperson,

I just went through 7 pages of replies to your query looking for a response by you to any of those replies. I found none. Since you have given use your belief system in your question I will not ask you about that (lest Chrisl see it as another attack).

The bible is a Salvation History beginning with God's creation and ending with the destruction by fire of the Cosmos, and the creation of new heavens and earth. It is a history of the fall of man and his redemption through the finished work of God incarnate, Jesus (Son of God and God the Son). Pictures (types) of Christ abound in those scriptures written prior to his appearance (prophecies of both of His comings as well), then a history of His birth, teaching, death, and resurrecton, and finally prophecies and discriptions of his triumphant return for those who endured until the end.

I do not know, since you have not responded to any of your replies (at least as far as I can tell), if you will even read this reply. However, I hope that you do and that this reply is helpful.

Be blessed in Jesus,

Phil

No I don't see any and I've read it for years.
It's a matter of how you look at it and know what the Bible is.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura). :)

Happyperson,

I just went through 7 pages of replies to your query looking for a response by you to any of those replies. I found none. Since you have given use your belief system in your question I will not ask you about that (lest Chrisl see it as another attack).

The bible is a Salvation History beginning with God's creation and ending with the distruction by fire of the Cosmos, and the creation of new heavens and earth. It is a history of the fall of man and his redemption through the finished work of God incarnate, Jesus (Son of God and God the Son). Pictures (types) of Christ abound in those scriptures written prior to his appearance (prophecies of both of His comings as well), then a history of His birth, teaching, death, and resurrecton, and finally prophecies and discriptions of his triumphant return for those who endured until the end.

I do not know, since you have not responded to any of your replies (at least as far as I can tell), if you will even read this reply. However, I hope that you do and that this reply is helpful.

Be blessed in Jesus,

Phil


Happyperson could have responded to individual posts by clicking on the scales icon at top right and entered an opinion of each post there. He might be gathering replies rather than wanting a long discussion.

Just a thought.


MORGANITE



:)

Happyperson could have responded to individual posts by clicking on the scales icon at top right and entered an opinion of each post there. He might be gathering replies rather than wanting a long discussion.

Just a thought.


MORGANITE



:)

MORGANITE,

Happyperson is under no obligation (as far as I am concerned) to respond, but it would be nice if he/she acknowledged an answer either positively of negatively. At least then one would know the answer asked for had been read... ah, but you read it... what more could I ask?

Phil

What An Excellent Answer, Thank You.

I'll keep waiting.
I'd really like to see the documented historical proof of what was claimed about the Holy Bible.
But of course there probably isn't any that is factual, but then if there is I would like to see it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura) :)

I'll keep waiting.
I'd realy like to see the documented historical proof of what was claimed about the Holy Bible.
But of course there probably isn't any that is factual, but then if there is I would like to see it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura) :)
Same could be said about proof that the events in the bible are factual so it's a wash.

Peace and good orgasms.

Excuse my tardiness but I have been working way too much!
Yes, I have read an article, a book, thousands of books.
If anyone interprets my postings as hostile that is their choice but I do not feel any hostility when I post. I find that quite amusing.
I can't prove what I believe any more than one of you can prove to me that what you believe is true.
The old testament is a compilation of ancient history, from all over the world, and it is so condensed as to be unintelligible. It requires that one research many ancient writings and myths and legends to figure out what it is really about, what it really means.
The new testament is also a compilation of stories. There are many, many more of those stories which give us very interesting information that were not included (they contained what the church considers as dangerous).
What I don't understand is why, when someone like myself, comes along and challenges accepted beliefs, they are pooh-poohed and everyone gets up in arms... when all we are doing is trying to point out that maybe there is another explanation that is better than the one we have and that answers many more questions and gives us a much better picture of how things really are. Why? And then they are put under pressure to prove what they are saying that they believe when the ones who are on the other end can't prove anything either?

Excuse my tardiness but I have been working way too much!
Yes, I have read an article, a book, thousands of books.
If anyone interprets my postings as hostile that is their choice but I do not feel any hostility when I post. I find that quite amusing.
I can't prove what I believe any more than one of you can prove to me that what you believe is true.
The old testament is a compilation of ancient history, from all over the world, and it is so condensed as to be unintelligible. It requires that one research many ancient writings and myths and legends to figure out what it is really about, what it really means.
The new testament is also a compilation of stories. There are many, many more of those stories which give us very interesting information that were not included (they contained what the church considers as dangerous).
What I don't understand is why, when someone like myself, comes along and challenges accepted beliefs, they are pooh-poohed and everyone gets up in arms...when all we are doing is trying to point out that maybe there is another explanation that is better than the one we have and that answers many more questions and gives us a much better picture of how things really are. Why? And then they are put under pressure to prove what they are saying that they believe when the ones who are on the other end can't prove anything either?

Be specific, please. What do you require proof of?

I am not requiring proof!
What a communication breakdown!

I am not requiring proof!
What a communication breakdown!
Yes they are confused. It is celtearth who required proof (after arcura asked him for proof first), not you. If they bothered to re-read the thread (hint: page 6) it would have been plainly obvious. Perhaps they only understand parables?

Parables! Giggle!

The theme of the Bible in short: It is God's written revelation of His will to humanity. Its central theme is salvation through Jesus Christ. The OT is the covenant God made with people about their salvation before Christ came. The NT is the agreement God made with people about their salvation after Christ came. The OT begins with God, the NT begins with Jesus Christ. In other words the OT commences what the NT completes. The OT gathers around Siani, the NT around Calvary. The OT is associated with Moses, the NT with Christ. From Adam to Abrahma we have the history of the human race. From Abraham to Christ we have the history of the chosen race. From Christ on we have the history of the church.

The Bible tells of the origin of sin and how the curse separated us all from God. We discover how utterly impossible it was for the law to bring us the salvation we need, for by the deeds of the law no flesh can be justified, for all have sinned. Then we find the promise of a Saviour. One who was to come to seek and to save that which was lost and give His life a ransom for many. We see all through the ages one purpose is evident, that of preparing a way for the coming of the Redeemer of the world.

There is one great purpose moving through the ages, the eternal design of the almighty God to redeem a wrecked and ruined world. From the origins of Genesis to the endings in Revelation, God is working things out.

The Bible is our roadmap, our directions for our journey through life. Just as you need a map or directions to travel through unknown parts of the world to arrive safely, you need the Bible for directions to arrive safely home with the Lord of Lords and King of Kings.

MaggieB

I am not requiring proof!
What a communication breakdown!

You said: "And then they are put under pressure to prove what they are saying that they believe when the ones who are on the other end can't prove anything either?"

I would assume that I am one of those "on the other end." If that is true, then you have stated that I, as one of those on the other end, can't prove anything either. I don't believe that to be true, so I asked what you require proof of. Where is the breakdown?

Phil

So let's all go out now and kill us some Canaanites!


There are no people today identifiable as Canaanites. Do you mean Palestinians or Iraqis?






MORGANITE

:)

The only theme of the bible that is worth any weight is the message that we should treat others as we treat ourselves.
I cannot believe, it boggles my mind, that people actually believe in god and the devil and sin. In my opinion (I'm not knocking others here... ) I find that so incredibly unbelieveable. I have studied and read the bible so I know all that you have stated. But I have also studied much much more than the bible and I know what is behind it. Doesn't anyone out there (helllloooooo ouuuuut thhheeeere... eeeeere... eeeere... ) desire to learn what our true history is? What went on before the bible and led up to it? What god really is/was?

The only theme of the bible that is worth any weight is the message that we should treat others as we treat ourselves.
I cannot believe, it boggles my mind, that people actually believe in god and the devil and sin. In my opinion (I'm not knocking others here...) I find that so incredibly unbelieveable. I have studied and read the bible so I know all that you have stated. But I have also studied much much more than the bible and I know what is behind it. Doesn't anyone out there (helllloooooo ouuuuut thhheeeere....eeeeere....eeeere....) desire to learn what our true history is? What went on before the bible and led up to it? What god really is/was?

Sure, I want to know. Suppose you tell me.

I'm with Phil Debenham, tell us what God really was and is! Give us the history before the Bible.

MaggieB

The only theme of the bible that is worth any weight is the message that we should treat others as we treat ourselves.
I cannot believe, it boggles my mind, that people actually believe in god and the devil and sin. In my opinion (I'm not knocking others here...) I find that so incredibly unbelieveable. I have studied and read the bible so I know all that you have stated. But I have also studied much much more than the bible and I know what is behind it. Doesn't anyone out there (helllloooooo ouuuuut thhheeeere....eeeeere....eeeere....) desire to learn what our true history is? What went on before the bible and led up to it? What god really is/was?


Why don't you tell us foolish believers who have, as you insist, been led astray, exactly how we are led astray, when, and by whom? Do it as a service to save ourselves from our own ignorant foolishness.

I'd like to know the whole background and history of the Bible in minute detail so that I can see where I have been going wrong. Please bring me up to date.




MORGANITE :)

Look, if you want to interpret what I say in the way you do, then fine. So be it. All I am saying is that there is more to the bible than meets the eye and I am very surprised that more people don't want to explore what that might be. I have and it is really interesting. But with the reactions to my posts that I am finding here I care not to pursue any further discussions with you. I am sure that you will interpret this as my inability to further educate you... but that is your responsibility, not mine.

Look, if you want to interpret what I say in the way you do, then fine. So be it. All I am saying is that there is more to the bible than meets the eye and I am very surprised that more people don't want to explore what that might be. I have and it is really interesting. But with the reactions to my posts that I am finding here I care not to pursue any further discussions with you. I am sure that you will interpret this as my inability to further educate you...but that is your responsibility, not mine.


So - you won't talk, eh? That speaks volumes.

Thank you.

:)

Look, if you want to interpret what I say in the way you do, then fine. So be it. All I am saying is that there is more to the bible than meets the eye and I am very surprised that more people don't want to explore what that might be. I have and it is really interesting. But with the reactions to my posts that I am finding here I care not to pursue any further discussions with you. I am sure that you will interpret this as my inability to further educate you...but that is your responsibility, not mine.

Keenu,

Be serious for a minute. You say there is more to the bible than meets the eye, but you are unwilling to give even a hint of an example. Let's discuss this, Keenu. Tell me something of the "more than meets the eye" and let's talk about it. You made a statement and a few of us said, "ok, show me." Nothing wrong with that. Let's talk!

Phil

Iwould really liketo know what that is.
But Keenu says he will nor discuss it further.
Why.:confused:

Curious minds wanr to know.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Iwould really liketo know what that is.
But Keenu says he will nor discuss it futher.
Why.:confused:

Curious minds wanr to know.
Peace and kindness,
Fred


Keenu is here to answer questions, so I am sure that Keenu will do some thinking and rejoin the discussion.



MORGANITE

:)

What events in the life of jesus parallel those desrcibed in Psamls 3,9,16?

While many may disagree but the bible is a collection of various books written by dozens of authors during different time frames.

While one could say many things, about God's love, the meaning of our existence, But one has to also remember that each section was written for specific reasons, a history, rules and laws, relationship with God.
Even in one section such as the Psalms mostly written by David, different chapters have different relationships showing Davids position to God at that time.

You return to a lot of historical information, given from different points of view from various authors to people of different backgrounds for different reasons ( first books of the new testement)

Add to that a lot of Pauls letters with guidelines for christian living.

So the theme in general is our relationship with God, and his relationship to us.

But it is a book that will tell us everything we need to know if we allow ourself to be open to it.

But it is a book that will tell us everything we need to know if we allow ourself to be open to it.

The bible doesn't answer so many questions - that's why there is so much doubt in it by so many people. It certainly doesn't tell us EVERYTHING we need to know. It's more like anecdotes than anything else, and skewed by the authors perceptions and beliefs.

It does indeed tell us what we need to know, perhaps not what you want to know, or tell you that what you think is right. It oftens lets us know that our ideas are not correct and we need to correct issues in our life.

But it is a guide in life, from rasing children, how to run a business, how to treat our neibhtors, who to relate to others, marriage, and all sorts of issues in life.

It is only when we wish to ignore what it says, because we wish to live some other way is where the problem comes in.

It does indeed tell us what we need to know, perhpas not what you want to know, or tell you that what you think is right. It oftens lets us know that our ideas are not correct and we need to correct issues in our life.

But it is a guide in life, from rasing childen, how to run a business, how to treat our neibhtors, who to relate to others, marriage, and all sorts of issues in life.

It is only when we wish to ignore what it says, because we wish to live some other way is where the problem comes in.

The bible lacks credibility, how could I believe it was from God, it is so far from perfect, it is of men and obviously so. God is beyond the bible.

The only theme of the bible that is worth any weight is the message that we should treat others as we treat ourselves.
I cannot believe, it boggles my mind, that people actually believe in god and the devil and sin. In my opinion (I'm not knocking others here...) I find that so incredibly unbelieveable. I have studied and read the bible so I know all that you have stated. But I have also studied much much more than the bible and I know what is behind it. Doesn't anyone out there (helllloooooo ouuuuut thhheeeere....eeeeere....eeeere....) desire to learn what our true history is? What went on before the bible and led up to it? What god really is/was?

I very much agree with you. It seems people expect you to teach them yourself instead of them seeking out the information themselves. Meanwhile, all they'd simply do is argue with you. It's funny. People aren't very interested in looking outside their narrow boxed in views and to all others that do they seem to want to bring them down. But it is their own ignorance that keeps them in that argument. To simply take a book and revolve their lives around it without knowing the history and events surrounding that book before and after is only being ignorant. The authors of the bible were quite clever in some ways, like by saying that the fall of the first people were by eating of the tree of knowledge. Therefore, the authors would like to have the readers not use knowledge or their own intelligence to look outside the books writings as it would be sinful - that like eating of the tree of knowledge. It's been designed to cause guilt and fear if one doesn't look outside to the rest of the worlds gifts of spirituality.

God is beyond the bible, and not limited to merely a few pages.

The theme of this thread is that people are not willing to learn and open up but to push others down and prove their own ways as right and to put themselves on pedestals beyond others. Ego wins again. This is sad, it is very unevolved, and proves that a lot of people still don't get it. We are all from the same source, some are just too blind to see it.

And people continue on... ego wins again.

God is beyond the bible, God is beyond the ego.

The theme of this thread is that people are not willing to learn and open up but to push others down and prove their own ways as right and to put themselves on pedestals beyond others. Ego wins again. This is sad, it is very unevolved, and proves that a lot of people still don't get it. We are all from the same source, some are just too blind to see it.

And people continue on..... ego wins again.

God is beyond the bible, God is beyond the ego.



I am not interested in getting in between this tussle of explanations, but it is obvious from what has been written that each represents a view that is incompatible with the other's.

One view is from someone who has intimate knowledge of the Bible and its history, the conditions of the people at the time eachbook was written, its background, its production, its development, its purposes, and so forth.

The other is from someone who has what I will call an outside view of the Bible and who does not deal with its contents but is content to attack those who use the Bible as a religious and spiritual guide.

Because the disputants argue from different premises there will never agree.

If you could settle what is to be the ground of your discussion, whether it is (A) the Bible itself, or whether it is to be (B) the behaviour of Bible believers. Then fruitful discourse might follow.

But as long as you both address different propositions there can be no meeting of minds on what is a truly fascinating and worthwhile subject which, in my opinion, deserves better than the hurling of epithets against those who believe in it.

Separate the Book from the Believer and maintain focus on the issue, which is the Bible.








MORGANITE



. :)

in my opinion, deserves better than the hurling of epithets aginst those who believe in it.

MORGANITE



. :)

And You are obviously biased to one side also because you failed to mention the hurling of epithets against those who do not believe in it.

And You are obviously biased to one side also because you failed to mention the hurling of epithets against those who do not believe in it.


Show me where I have hurled epithets against anyone who does not believe in it.

My point is that posting emotional opinions unsupported by evidence instead of dealing with the subject on a serious level ius futile.


Hurling epithets at anyone for anything they do or do not believe in is futile.

The Bible, like all religious books, deserves better treatment than a put down. I believed I had made that clear in my previous post.

I am not interested in getting in between this tussle of explanations, but it is obvious from what has been written that each represents a view that is incompatible with the other's.

One view is from someone who has intimate knowledge of the Bible and its history, the conditions of the people at the time eachbook was written, its background, its production, its development, its purposes, and so forth.

The other is from someone who has what I will call an outside view of the Bible and who does not deal with its contents but is content to attack those who use the Bible as a religious and spiritual guide.

Because the disputants argue from different premises there will never agree.

If you could settle what is to be the ground of your discussion, whether it is (A) the Bible itself, or whether it is to be (B) the behaviour of Bible believers. then fruitful discourse might follow.

But as long as you both address different propositions there can be no meeting of minds on what is a truly fascinating and worthwhile subject which, in my opinion, deserves better than the hurling of epithets aginst those who believe in it.

Seperate the Book from the Believer and maintain focus on the issue, which is the Bible.




MORGANITE

Show me where I have hurled epithets against anyone who does not believe in it.


The Bible, like all religious books, deserves better treatment than a put down. I believed I had made that clear in my previous post.





MORGANITE

I think you should reread my statement you responded to. I think you are getting a bit emotional and taking things personally.

My statement said: Originally Posted by celtearth
And You are obviously biased to one side also because you failed to mention the hurling of epithets against those who do not believe in it.

If my statement said "Your hurling of epithets" then your response would have been justified. Regardless, I digress.

I think the positive aspects of the bible and other religious books definitely are worthy of respect. Love and all that it encompasses in any form of written work, that is designed to teach us to love and embrace each other is the all important point.

It's the politics, prejudices and judgements that religious persons that are used to separate one another from who's right and who's wrong that I disagree with in any written book that people follow religiously. The bible has good aspects and bad aspects that are obvious reflections that the book was written by mans opinion and interpretation of what is right and wrong. People follow these other ways of thinking blindly, like sheep and use them to justify their own actions.

How can one explain a group such as the KKK being so adamantly and absolutely sure of themselves being 100% right and following the teachings of the bible to justify their every action yet those of us on the outside can see how wrong they are. Is it not the same thing, that people use this book to justify their own beliefs and it's all up to interpretation that best fits their own desires and prejudices. Who can say that the writers, ever so flawed that the bible presents itself, did not use their own prejudices to convey their own thoughts and feelings as they saw fit.

The ultimate flaw of the bible is that it is interpreted by the reader so how can it be the ultimate truth (and above all other books that claim the same)? Not two persons would agree from the first page to the last on it's exact interpretations, nor would the publishers or translators over the many centuries. It all can be interpreted to confirm or refute one's own internal working model of what is and is not right and just.

God is beyond a book, and yes, if it helps people to be more loving and kind towards one another, to respect and not judge others that's great, but when it turns people against others and causes people to judge others as wrong and themselves right it becomes very unholy. This book can not be the ultimate truth, God is too great to be held within the pages.

There is much more to the infinite than any language can portray.

Thank you for your explanation.

It's the politics, prejudices and judgements that religious persons that are used to seperate one another from who's right and who's wrong that I disagree

I quite agree. But it doesn't stop at books, written or otherwise. It needs to be applied to every form of human interaction.

Not all people who are religious are prejudiced. Not all who are not religious are free of prejudice.

The bible has good aspects and bad aspects that are obvious reflections that the book was written by mans opinion and interpretation of what is right and wrong. People follow these other ways of thinking blindly, like sheep and use them to justify their own actions.


Leaving aside the question of the inspiration behind the making of the Bible, if you had said "Some people" instead of "People" then I would agree. I am sure that is what you meant to say.


How can one explain a group such as the KKK being so adamantly and absolutely sure of themselves being 100% right and following the teachings of the bible to justify their every action yet those of us on the outside can see how wrong they are.

I have never heard a good and reasonable argument from the KKK, the Nazi Party, any of the Neo-Nazi Parties, White Supremacists, or any of their ilk justify their practices from the Bible.

The Bible says "Thou shalt not kill." These people do.
The Bible says "Love thy neighbor" These people don't.

The root of their hatred is not religious but political and tribal. It is extremely unfortunate that many of these groups also claim that their members are Christians. They cannot be. If the KKK followed the teachings of the Bible to justify their every action, they would dissemble, launder their sheets and make up a bed for a black neighbor who the Bible has taught them to love.

I find it sad that you are ready either to throw away or disregard the Bible and religion because of the actions of those who are, in comparison with the whole population, a few evil and misguided people. If you can only see the Bible through the eyes of the KKK or its antitheses then you cannot see the Bible. You cannot see it because your view of it is distorted by reference to these groups.

Is it not the same thing, that people use this book to justify their own beliefs and it's all up to interpretation that best fits their own desires and prejudices. Who can say that the writers, ever so flawed that the bible presents itself, did not use their own prejudices to convey their own thoughts and feelings as they saw fit.


The Bible can not be blamed for the use people make of it. That is tantamount to blaming the victim for the crime against him instead of pursuing the criminal. Whilst it is unreasonable to say that the writers of the Bible were anything but human, that ought not to prevent us from understanding their thoughts on the spiritual matters and profound questions that human beings ask about themselves and their universe.

It is easy to see how the great thoughts of some of these men explained in wonderful poetic language what they felt inspired to write and share. To denounce the Bible as nothing more but a handbook for race hate groups is to do it great injustice. Not that I am saying that is what you are doing. But when we make sweeping generalised statements about it and its readers/believers, we brush all the good and the bad into the same trash can and miss the gold.

The ultimate flaw of the bible is that it is interpreted by the reader so how can it be the ultimate truth (and above all other books that claim the same)? Not two persons would agree from the first page to the last on it's exact interpretations, nor would the publishers or translators over the many centuries. It all can be interpreted to confirm or refute one's own internal working model of what is and is not right and just.



How is the interpretation of the Bible its ultimate flaw? If there is any flaw in understanding it lies within the interpeters, and not with the Book itself, surely?

Your statement that "no two person would agree from the first page to the last on its exact interpretations" is easily shown to not be true. If you had said that no two religious groups or movements, denominations, call them what you will, agree on all points, then that is reasonable.

As to translators of the various editions "over the centuries," they have constantly made attempts to update the text to the linguistic currency of their own times. In doing so there are occasions when they have taken exceptional licence with their translations, either to meet their own theological perspectives, or because they didn't know what else to do. The texts of the Bible monographs are far from clear in some places, and so some words are 'supplied' in the interests of common sense. Some translations have been little more that cynical redirection of the text into theological straitjackets. These are readily detected/


The differences in belief that you point to, in the last of your paragraphs I have reproduced above, say nothing about the Bible, but tell us a lot about human nature. If religious texts were the sole reason for disagreement among people the wide world over, then there might be something in your argument against the Bible and other religious books.

You know, however, that such is not the case. There are greater differences among people regarding political philosophies, government, economical questions, wars, progress, science, human rights, poverty, immigration, down to such muindane matters as football, baseball, where to vacation, or what to have for dinner.

These difference arise because human beings are individuals, often uniquely different, and have discrete goals, which they are often unwilling to surrender, even when their doing so would benefit others. Altruism is not dead, but is in short supply when the question is asked, "What's in it for me?"

If you don't like the Bible, if you find it doesn't help your personal spiritual quest, then your solution is a simple one.

Personally, I like the Bible very much. It is a guide to me in my spiritual life. It helps me to understand my relationship with God, and helps me to consrtantly modify my behaviour to be more Christ-like. That's the hard bit because I am human with all the frailties of every other human being. But I have learned that what is not my personal religious preference, has great value for those whose preference it is, and I am content not to be intolerant, like the KKK, and not to persecute because of differences.

The Ba'hai Faith, which is not mine, speaking of the diversity of humanity says, "We are all flowers from one garden."

So, in the garden of life, I am an onion and you are a rose. We can see each others' differences and we can smell them. But we can live together in harmony, should we choose to do that.



MORGANITE

:)

Thank you for your explanation.

It's the politics, prejudices and judgements that religious persons that are used to seperate one another from who's right and who's wrong that I disagree

I quite agree. But it doesn't stop at books, written or otherwise. It needs to be applied to every form of human interaction.

Not all people who are religious are prejudiced. Not all who are not religious are free of prejudice.



MORGANITE

I disagree. All people have prejudices - and the interpretation of prejudice here is not meant to mean bigotted, racist or discriminatory, it is to be interpreted as "a bias, belief or attitude formed beforehand." (another example of how words are all up to interpretation by the reader or writer). Everyone has their own prejudices in this meaning quoted. Either your ideas and beliefs are due to someone initially telling you what something means (according to their interpretation) or your ideas and interpretation of such a thing is based on your past experiences and knowledge which leads you to make conclusions on written words upon how you think and feel about a particular subject. Everything is filtered through the mind which is always leaning in one direction or another according to your decisions, choices and biases. The thing is no two people make choices exactly the same way and by simply agreeing with someone else's interpretation of something doesn't make it right, as they have processed the information in the same way, by using their own biases and choices to decide what their belief is.

I disagree. All people have prejudices - and the interpretation of prejudice here is not meant to mean bigotted, racist or discriminatory, it is to be interpreted as "a bias, belief or attitude formed beforehand." (another example of how words are all up to interpretation by the reader or writer). Everyone has their own prejudices in this meaning quoted. Either your ideas and beliefs are due to someone initially telling you what something means (according to their interpretation) or your ideas and interpretation of such a thing is based on your past experiences and knowledge which leads you to make conclusions on written words upon how you think and feel about a particular subject. Everything is filtered through the mind which is always leaning in one direction or another according to your decisions, choices and biases. The thing is no two people make choices exactly the same way and by simply agreeing with someone elses interpretation of something doesn't make it right, as they have processed the information in the same way, by using their own biases and choices to decide what their belief is.


I hope that you can see that I used 'prejudice' in the context of the poster to whom I replied, and that was racial prejudice, unless the KKK has changed its ways.

So when I used it is WAS meant to convey the meanings you say it wasn't. You must allow me to know what I mean when I wrote it even if I didn't make it clear enough for everyone.




MORGANOTE

MORGANOTE

I see that you rewrote your responses in #102 for motive.



How is the interpretation of the Bible its ultimate flaw? If there is any flaw in understanding it lies within the interpeters, and not with the Book itself, surely?

Lets just agree to disagree. You've missed my whole point. The writers also had their own perspective and perceptions so it is only sensical that a book written by men would revolve around their own philosophies and perceptions. How is a mans interpretation of truth written on paper not blinded by his own mind.

And about the KKK, I'm sorry you've completely taken out of context my perception (well of course, the written words of men are flawed so it's all up to interpretation right, no wonder you're making judgements of my "distorted" view based on one example I had given - there's a lot more to me than the written word can hold on a message board or on a book - but it's easy for the reader to make their own interpretation of who and what I really am - That is the flaw).


Your statement that "no two person would agree from the first page to the last on its exact interpretations" is easily shown to not be true. If you had said that no two religious groups or movements, denominations, call them what you will, agree on all points, then that is reasonable.

I completely disagree with you here. It is impossible for two persons of even the same religious group to interpret the words the same. Only programmed robots or computer chips can replicate. It's basic psychology. The mind is a flowing, energetic rhythm that is an ever changing palette of our emotions, feelings, views and so much more. Just as no two people have the same experiences in life, nor are their perceptions of any thing the same.

I think you know the garden exists but are not willing to accept you are one with it, and with that, one with all, including me.

And to all the other points you've edited, you're clouding the point and aren't willing.

I see that you rewrote your responses in #102 for motive.



Lets just agree to disagree. You've missed my whole point. The writers also had their own perspective and perceptions so it is only sensical that a book written by men would revolve around their own philosophies and perceptions. How is a mans interpretation of truth written on paper not blinded by his own mind.

And about the KKK, I'm sorry you've completely taken out of context my perception (well of course, the written words of men are flawed so it's all up to interpretation right, no wonder you're making judgements of my "distorted" view based on one example I had given - there's a lot more to me than the written word can hold on a message board or on a book - but it's easy for the reader to make their own interpretation of who and what I really am - That is the flaw).



I completely disagree with you here. It is impossible for two persons of even the same religious group to interpret the words the same. Only programmed robots or computer chips can replicate. It's basic psychology. The mind is a flowing, energetic rythm that is an ever changing palette of our emotions, feelings, views and so much more. Just as no two people have the same experiences in life, nor are their perceptions of any thing the same.

I think you know the garden exists but are not willing to accept you are one with it, and with that, one with all, including me.

And to all the other points you've edited, you're clouding the point and aren't willing.


Thank you for the lesson in psychology, but it was neither necessary or helpful, and though you disagree, you do not know me better than I know myself. To insist that you do is to occupy one of the positions that you say you are against. How does that work?

I mistakenly thought that you were open to discussion, but I now see you are unwilling to see another's point of view, or even consider it, so will say farewell and good luck.




MORGANITE


:rolleyes:

I Would Tend To Agree That Unless You Are Fortunate Enough To
Read The Original Text, You Are Reading Someone's Interpretation.
This Is Why The Jewish Scrolls Are So Important. If In Copying One Scroll To Another, The Tiniest Error Was Made The Entire Scroll Was Destroyed And Started Anew From The Beginning. The Hebrews Were Emphatic About Knowing The Word Of God In It's Exactness.
And Please Bear In Mind That There Are Many Words In Hebrew That Have No English Translation For Them.

I Would Tend To Agree That Unless You Are Fortunate Enough To
Read The Original Text, You Are Reading Someone's Interpretation.
This Is Why The Jewish Scrolls Are So Important. If In Copying One Scroll To Another, The Tiniest Error Was Made The Entire Scroll Was Destroyed And Started Anew From The Begining. The Hebrews Were Emphatic About Knowing The Word Of God In It's Exactness.
And Please Bear In Mind That There Are Many Words In Hebrew That Have No English Translation For Them.


You are right in thinking that errors were not tolerated. If found, the scrolls were not destroyed but placed in a special place to remain out of circulation. If the errors were not found thene the errors went down to then next generation of copyists and were perpetuated. When errors were noted in writings that were in circulation it was th epractice for a scribe to make an emendation in the margin explaining what was meant. Marginal notes were also made to either explain historical things no longer current or to make a theological point that was either vague or different than was what written. Over time, these marginal notes became included in the body of the text. They are called glosses. There are Hebrew words thsat have no English equivalent, and some words in Hebrew as written make no sense in any languiage, not even in Hebrew.

As there are no original texts anywhere ion the world we have to do the best we can with what are available. This is a tricky problem.





MORGANITE



:)

In 1991 I Was Fgortunate Enough To Be Able To Visit Israel For A Short Tour, 9 Days I Think It Was. While At The Hebrew University
I Was Able To See A Scroll Under Glass Of The Book Of Isaiah. I Have No Idea How Old It Was But Had It Not Been For The Glass And Lack Of Oxygen It Would Have Disintigrated. As For Words That Are Not Translatable, "abba" Comes To Mind First. We Call It Father, But It Is A Much More Intimate Feeling To The Word And "daddy" Just Doesn't Come Close Enough To The Mark. Therefore The Next Reasonable Facsimile Is Used Instead. Thank You For Your Input,
It Is Much Appriciated...

Thank you for the lesson in psychology, but it was neither necessary or helpful, and though you disagree, you do not know me better than I know myself. To insist that you do is to occupy one of the positions that you say you are against. How does that work?

I mistakenly thought that you were open to discussion, but I now see you are unwilling to see another's point of view, or even consider it, so will say farewell and good luck.




MORGANITE


:rolleyes:

You can not have a discussion with someone who disagrees with you it seems. I am open to discussion.

I think my last post is clear.

The considerations of Pope John Paull II and the current Pope Benedict XVI on changing the rules of purgatory is proof that religion is made up as they go along and those in power do make changes. A book can easily be edited and burned.

Okay yes this is a really old post but it reminds me of something so there. A while back my friend I used to wrk with in sc gave me this letter to read that she had printed up. Basically it was a whole bunch of things from the bible about how much jesus loves us and it was like a love letter from jesus. I didn't get to keep it and id like to know where I can find it. It was really sweet and I think my mom and dad would like it also.

The considerations of Pope John Paull II and the current Pope Benedict XVI on changing the rules of purgatory is proof that religion is made up as they go along and those in power do make changes. A book can easily be edited and burned.


LOL They coul,d hardly change the 'rules of purgatory' even if there was such a place.

What they can do is reinterpret how the Church's teachings on purgatory should be understood.

Redefinition is 'proof' of nothing.



MORGANITE

I'm interesed!! What rules were changed?


The considerations of Pope John Paull II and the current Pope Benedict XVI on changing the rules of purgatory is proof that religion is made up as they go along and those in power do make changes. A book can easily be edited and burned.

Please provided souce.
Thanks Much.:)
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Wow... lots of good stuff here. BUt her in my simple way of thinking is my answer to the question: "What is the theme of The Bible?". There isn't one. It is a series of short storys and letters collected by man into a single book with the purpose of illustrating God's plan and rules for us, His people.

Wow... lots of good stuff here. But here in my simple way of thinking is my answer to the question: "What is the theme of The Bible?". There isn't one. It is a series of short storys and letters collected by man into a single book with the purpose of illustrating God's plan and rules for us, His people.

I'd agree that there is no overall "Theme" in the Bible. It is not a book, but a collection of books, and whereas manyu of the books do have a more or less central theme, those themes do not migrate to cover the book as a whole.

Seeking to know the theme of the Bible is rather like asking a librarian what the theme of his library is.



M:)RGANITE

Though I do agree that no book in the bible is the same, I would say that an overall theme is, in both old and new testaments, that Jesus is the Christ. Starting with Genesis we see types of CHrist and it goes on through the end. But yes, I do agree that at the same time it's very different in what each book teaches.

Moranite,
Just for the fun of it I phone a librarian I knew and read you post to her.
Then I asked the question, "What is the theme of a library?"
She answered, "It's obvious. "The theme is collecting published knowledge, the bigger the library the more successful collecting ."
So it dawned on me. The Bible's theme is knowledge of and about God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I like that a lot Fred. I think that is the most compete answer to the original question... now... as for what it's FOR... ahhhhh, that may be more what we are really talking about here, isn't it?