My house was built in 1970, and the bathroom was remodeled before I moved into the house 3.5 years ago. The tub recently quit draining properly. A plumber investigated and found that the tub drain is piped into an "open site drain". Water from the tub is overflowing the site drain and migrating into the rocks underneath the slab. The plumber says this is an improper installation and says he'll have to "bust out the concrete" and reconnect the drain with a trap into the main house drain. He claims he can't do any work on it and leave the piping as-is. My home warranty company won't cover the stoppage repair because it involves dealing with an "improper installation", which, according to the plumber, must be repaired to clear the stoppage. Does all this sound correct? Seems to me he could just run a snake down the drain and clear the stoppage. There are no other backups in the house.

Hi Cpctodd...

Never heard of an "open site drain".. Do you mean the tub drain just gets piped into the ground... kinda like a DRYWELL? If so, then that certainly is illegal.

Sounds like your plumber is leading you in the right direction. He'll need to chop up the floor and should be able to connect the tub into the sink drain underground. In this manner, he will effectively WET VENT the tub using the sink vent. Double check, of course, that wet venting is allowed in your area... ask a plumbing inspector in your area.

Back to you...

Mark

Thanks for the reply. It's not piped into the ground, it's piped into what looks like a funnel, which I assume is piped into some master drain from the house. See photo.


Is it possible that this was the original installation in 1970?

That is a cast iron hub... very common in older systems. I'd snake the drain and see if the drain clears. Send a snake down the overflow and , if you are lucky, you'll run into resistance about 12-18" in... that's the trap... push on snake to get around the trap and continue to clear the drain. Once the tub seems cleared I would undo the black rubber clamp and see if there is standing water in the pipe underground. Stick a flashlight close up and then stick a small stick into the drain... if it comes up wet then there is a PTRAP present and you are all set!

If the tub is trapped then you would need to fill the hub with a soil pipe filler and some oakum so there is no overflow again... see images.

If I still misunderstand... let me know.

I assume you're talking about the black rubber clamp between the PVC and the metal pipe? That pipe drains fine. I haven't undone the clamp yet, but I know that the water flows out the top of the cast iron hub when the tub drains. It's as though the metal pipe goes down into the hub, but there's no seal between the pipe and the hub, so now that there's a stoppage it just overflows the hub into the stone under the slab.

There is no trap above the hub, and I can't verify there's a trap below the hub since it would be underground, but I assume it would have been plumbed properly when the hub was originally installed, right? We've never had odor or gurgling sounds coming out of the tub. From what you're saying, it sounds like this is a common and acceptable installation from 1970, and the plumber (relatively young) thought it was just like an open drain.

The only problem I can see here is that the hubbed cast iron is not filled at the joint. I'd snake the drain and clear the blockage. When the blockage is cleared and the tub drains without overflowing the cast iron hub then I would confirm there is water present in the trap by sending a dry snake down the drain again. If it comes back wet or if you meet resistance at about 18" then you are trapped just fine.

After all confirmed, use the oakum and filler to close off the cast iron hub...

Mark

Plumber just called, a different one from that company is coming back tomorrow to finish up another issue that wasn't solved today (home warranty covered that one). Hopefully he'll recognize it's a cast iron hub, snake it, and clear the clog. I'll suggest the soil seal and/or oakum. Thanks for your help.

Let me know the result... curious.. OK? Thanks.

PS... suggest soil seal AND oakum!

If it turns out there is no trap below the hub (using your suggested method for finding out), could one be easily added above the hub?


I'll show him your photos online. The problem is 15 feet from my computer.

A trap can't be added above the cast iron hub... would negate the vent that should be present underground.

You can install a trap underground... it'll be tricky with the water pipes there, and hard to say how deep you need to go from here, but should just need to add a trap... can be done using a shielded transition clamp... see image. The clamp would need to be a 2" cast iron x 2" PVC clamp... available at any plumbing store. Transition over to a new 2" PVC ptrap and reduce and connect to the 1.5" PVC tub drain/overflow. You could also install an 1.5" PTRAP if space is tight.

Ask the plumber to disconnect that black rubber clamp and then you guys can really tell what is happening at the cast iron. Never know... the trap could be down 20 inches... ;)

Again, old cast undergound is how we do this so this should not be anything abnormal. I'm still willing to bet that there is a PTRAP down deep... ;)

Plumber still says it's an improper installation and home warranty won't cover it. He's still saying they won't snake the line because if it gets stuck they'll have to access it and fix the improper connection, which would require breaking of concrete to get access to make a proper connection. He wasn't aware of Soil Seal, he just said they can't use lead anymore. He's checking with his boss, who's checking with another plumber to see if they will do anything with it. He questioned whether Soil Seal is an acceptable lead substitute within the code of the county. I may try to install the oakum and Soil Seal myself, then call the warranty company to have them clear the clog (send out another plumber). What do you think?

I'd go to a tool rental store and rent an electric snake... see image. Then I would remove the overflow face plate at the tub and I'd snake the drain... or remove the black rubber clamp and pipe going into the cast iron hub and snake from there. If you meet resistance within 18-24" that will be the trap...just need to push on the snake while it rotates to get it past the trap. You shouldn't have to go more than 10-15 feet to find the clog. Purchase some leather gloves and safety goggles for safety.

After you unclog this, test the drain by running tons of water down the tub drain. If all looks good then I would use the oakum and the soil seal. The oakum gets packed in pretty tight to the hub and leaves about a 1" depth for the soil seal to fill the void.

If you don't want to do this, I wouldn't use the soil seal and oakum just yet as a plumber may decide to snake the drain by removing the black rubber and piping going into the cast iron.

Finally, I'd remove the rubber clamp and determine that the trap is there or not... REALLY NEED TO CONFIRM IF TRAP IS PRESENT OR NOT! I know you said it wasn't but I have a hard time believing it... still think it is deeper in the ground.

In terms of getting the snake caught... I wouldn't worry too much here. Put the snake in a foot or two ata time and then pull it back. Repeat for every two feet, pull back, etc.

I really think we have some inexperienced people here... cast iron underground with copper piping is how plumbing was done for over 50 years! When we come upon this for new installations we will usually join onto the copper with a similar clamp to the one there now and transition to copper... exactly as your pic. Presents! I just don't understand all this talk of "improper installation"..?

Keep 'em coming...

Thanks again for your help. I think by "improper installation" they're saying that the hub isn't properly sealed, and to do so they'll need to break the concrete to get working room.

I agree with your suggestion. I'll snake it myself to start, probably through the tub overflow drain since the connections under the slab are a little tough to access. There's probably a trap like you say, I just can't verify since it's below the hub and underground. I'll feel for the resistance while I'm snaking. If the clog clears I'll proceed with the oakum and soil seal. I'll let you know how it goes, or post again if I have trouble or make a bigger mess! Thanks again.

Turns out my father in law has a manual snake, which he brought over yesterday. We snaked through the tub overflow and hooked the clog, which had to be cut to get it the snake head back through the tub overflow. Lots of stuff I'd rather not see again. On the way in, we definitely hit a point of resistance about 2 feet down, which had to be the trap, so I think we're good there. After clearing the clog we snaked again, got not much of anything, and ran a tub half full of water down the drain. No overflow at the hub. Main problem solved. A little frustrated with the plumber and warranty company for not covering this since a novice like me did it in about an hour.

Now for the hub sealing. Since the local plumber didn't know anything about Soil Seal and questioned whether it meets code, I researched a little in the 2006 National Standard Plumbing Code, which is incorporated into my county's code book with only a few exceptions:

http://mdcodes.umbc.edu/dhcd/howardplumb06.pdf
http://www.nj-phcc.org/web/2006NSPCNonIllustratedWeb.pdf

In Chapter 4, Joints & Connections, I see in Section 4.2.1 that lead caulked joints are clearly in the code, but I don't see anything in there about lead substitutes, such as Soil Seal. I have no doubt that it will work, since it's worked fine ever since I moved in 3.5 years ago (and probably worked fine ever since the house was built in 1970) without any seal at all, until the clog. Is there an allowance for plastic lead substitute in the code somewhere?

When I install the oakum, how clean does the hub need to be? It's not very accessible, so I probably won't be able to clean it very well. I'd like to install it without taking any piping apart if possible. Should I use something like a screwdriver to tap it down into the crack? Approximately how much should I use, and how thick should the roll be? (I assume I roll it into a snake shape and coil it around the hub 1 or 2 times.) Then just fill to the top of the hub with Soil Seal?

To trap above the hub you would have to build a "S" trap to connect and that's a no-no.
So if there's no trap and you join the tub waste with the hub you would have a direct connection between your tub and the city sewer allowing sewer gas to enter your home. Seems to me the only solution would be to cut in a tub dap-out, remove the bend with the hub and replace it with a "P" trap. N I realize 56this isn't what you wanted to hear but it's about the only way out.
Just my 2 cents worth. Tom

Hi Tom... I think all that has been covered/mentioned. Seems we may have found the trap at this point, too.

CPCTODD... Glad the clog is cleared. And it sounds like you established the trap is present, too! To confirm the presence of a trap put your ear up to the drain and then run a fixture in another room... see if you can hear it draining at the tub. If so, then there may not be a trap. If no noise and based on what you told us AND COMMON SENSE... the trap is there and only the hub needs to be sealed.

The soil seal is fine to use... so don't worry about that stuff. Sounds like the plumbers working with you like to fall back on that "not allowed by code stuff". I think they need to relax and do some work instead of talking so damn much!

Finally, as I suggested in post #12, "The oakum gets packed in pretty tight to the hub and leaves about a 1" depth for the soil seal to fill the void.

Hopefully that finishes this... :)

Mark

Mark,
The ear thingy is kind of iffy at best. Has he inserted a rod down past the hub to see if if it comes back with water on it to find out if there's a trap seal?
I realize that cast iron traps have a hub but as a rule they're deeper with a raiser. What he had was almost a indirect waste. So a trap has defiantly been established?
Cheers. Tom

Thanks for keepin' an eye on things, Tom! I always appreciate your input! I would also like to hear that the trap is 100% confirmed as I suggested in Post #4, #6, #10, #12, and my last post... :p

Also, the "ear thingy" is iffy but works pretty good if you've ever done this after someone flushed a toilet from another bathroom and there actually was no trap present. The sound is unmistakable.

I'm just pretty darn sure this tub is trapped or otherwise it is an indirect waste line to a drywell as this has been in place a lonnggg time and cpctodd hasn't complained of any sewer odors issues.

Finally, in this last post I'll reiterate our concerns and ask cpctodd to be sure to double check on the trap again... it is, after all, his and his familiy we are trying to protect.

Thanks again!

Trap below the hub is confirmed. I tried all the tests mentioned, including testing for water below the hub. Couldn't get a stick or rod down there very easily due to a couple bends but I stuck some paper towel on the end of the snake and it came back saturated. Plus we've never had any sewer gas smell coming from the bathroom. Thanks to you both for your help.

Todd

I just can't believe there are licensed plumbers out there that couldn't resolve your issue. Im very sorry to hear that. Now, as mentioned above, the only problem I see is the seal between the copper and cast iron hub. Soil seal, as Mark mentioned, will work just fine. From your original pic, it looks to me as though a fernco donut may also be an option, just need to replace the copper with pvc. There are ways of connection to that cast iron hub that will definitely meet code in all areas. As long as the trap is there, which has been confirmed, there should be no reason to open up the floor. The only things that needs to be done at this point(since you have already cleared the blockage) is to make a good seal between the tub waste and overflow to the cast iron hub. Its really as simple as that. Good luck and please do keep us posted.

Hey Todd, you say
Trap below the hub is confirmed
But I want to know exactly how it was confitmed? By listening at the hub when someone flushed a toilet?
You went on to say,
Couldn't get a stick or rod down there very easily due to a couple bends
Those bends concern me. The trap, unless it's a drum trap, should be directly under the tub waste.
You also told us,
but I stuck some paper towel on the end of the snake and it came back saturated.
How did you get the stick past 6the bends?
But this,
we've never had any sewer gas plus Marks test has me convinced that there's something down there.
However, until the floor's opened up we'll never know will we?
Call me a old "fuddy-duddy but looking at the pictures and reading the explaiunations just doesn't smell right to me. I'm not disagreeing with any one but there's simply too much supposition going on here. If there's a "P" trap down there why are the bends there? And why was the tub hooked up like this in the first place. All due respect to Mark and everyone the chimed in, Ya-all are most likely correct. Todd will be just fine connecting direct with a cold lead and oakum joint, (shouldn't that be caulked with caulking irons?) but this fix just leaves too many unanswered questions for this old plumber.
Regards to all, Tom

Hey Tom. Two 90 degree bends back-to-back are just there to jog over from the tub drain to the cast iron hub. You can see them in the photo. (I went through the tub overflow to avoid breaking apart any connections, since I don't have materials, experience, or space to reattach.) The bends are enough to prevent a rod or stick from going down into the hub, but I used a snake with a piece of paper towel coiled into the end. No, we'll never know exactly what's under the hub unless I dig it up, but the evidence tells me there's some kind of trap. I think they just never sealed that joint with oakum and lead back in 1970.

I don't know anything about caulking irons. I was just planning to clean out the hub as best I can without removing any piping, pack in some oakum, and fill the last 1" with Soil Seal when it arrives - no place in town seems to carry the stuff (or even know what it is) so i ordered it online. I'd probably pay a plumber to come fix it "per code" but the last one talked about breaking the concrete to get working room and said it would cost thousands of dollars. Plus general consensus in these posts is that oakum and soil seal will work just fine. It seems the only issue would be if a plumber comes out to fix another problem, sees something he considers out of code, and voids a warranty fix by claiming an "improper installation."

I was under the impression that the bends were under the cement and the hub was part of one of the bends. Since you have it open have you put a rod down there to check for a trap? Although I can't explain why there's no tub dap-out and why the hub's above the floor this might be the hub end of a cast iron "P" trap. I also wonder why there's a offset to connect in the first place, After you've established that there's a trap down there make your connection as Mark described. Good luck, Tom