Hello:

Was I dead before I was alive?

excon

No. That is all.

Hi, excon!

That would depend on what a person considers to be "dead", and perhaps even "alive".

How would you define "dead", please?

Thanks!

If death is the absence of life, and there is no life before conception, then there must be death before conception.

However, if life preexists death, then death cannot preexist life.

Umm, you're alive? <eg>

Depending on your faith, you may have been my great aunt, or by some thoughs how do you know you are alive now.

I believe that we are always alive. There is no before or after. There is just constant of being in one form or another..

If something doesn't exist, and has never existed, it can be neither dead nor alive. You did not exist prior to your being conceived by your parents. Your mother had one piece of what would eventually become you, and your father another piece, but separately they were not "you." Therefore, you were neither dead nor alive prior to that moment in time. So the period of your being alive was not preceded by being dead, but rather was preceded by nothing.

At least that's my take on it.

Dead means the absence of life,you have to be alive before you die,physically anyway,so physically you did not exist before you were conceived.

The thing is I am talking spiritually. We are always alive I believe. Even before being conceived.

The thing is I am talking spiritually. We are always alive I believe. Even before being conceived.

I believe in soul and spirit too,but I could not pinpoint the beginning of soul or spirit,too many theories and not enough head space.

Hello again,

Am I my body?

excon

I believe the person that is excon, the essence of excon, the qualities that tell me it is excon and not hheath or Curleyben or J_9, are always alive. Many religions call that the "soul" or "spirit" of a person. Your parents created the physical (the twinkly blue eyes and the right-handedness and the curly hair, etc.) excon, but how that got matched up with the spirit part to make the complete excon package, I have no idea. I also believe even though the physical part will die, the spirit part continues to exist.

continues to exist.Hello again, WG:

Was my spirit dead before it existed?

excon

Hello again, WG:

Was my spirit dead before it existed?

excon

No,

Hello again, WG:

Was my spirit dead before it existed?

excon
I said, "I believe the person that is excon, the essence of excon, the qualities that tell me it is excon and not hheath or Curleyben or J_9, are always alive."

I believe your spirit has always existed. Excon was romping around in another dimension before he landed on Earth and AMHD.

Auntie,

I believe the same thing.

Perhaps we might rephrase this question. "Did I exist before I existed?".

The Soul is eternal, and therefore never dies, the body is temporary so does.

The spark, essence, spiritual aspect of us is timeless, spaceless and deathless.

I would like to add, the thought that. We have always existed... There was no beginning and no end. God has always been and we have always been part of God.

I would like to add, the thought that. We have always existed... There was no beginning and no end. God has always been and we have always been part of God.
If that is one's belief. :)

Hello again,

I get that you folks believe that I've always been alive, and I'm always going to be... That's a nice idea... But, it flies in the face of, what I'll call, reality...

I say that, because if I've always been alive, it didn't feel like it. As a matter of fact, I'll bet it felt exactly like being dead. You also say that I'm going to be alive after I'm dead, but I don't think it's going to FEEL like I'm alive, so I'm not buying it.

I suppose faith would eventually come into the conversation...

excon

I agree with you ex. Most people's memories start at around 3 years old and there's no proof that anything happens after death. Got to enjoy these 90 years we have here on this planet of ours. Hopefully we touched some lives or did some deeds that will keep the memory of us alive after our death.

I get that you folks believe that I've always been alive, and I'm always going to be.... That's a nice idea... But, it flies in the face of, what I'll call, reality...

I say that, because if I've always been alive, it didn't feel like it. As a matter of fact, I'll bet it felt exactly like being dead. You also say that I'm going to be alive after I'm dead, but I don't think it's going to FEEL like I'm alive, so I'm not buying it.

Are you alive when you are asleep and not aware that you are alive?

Are you alive when you are asleep and not aware that you are alive?So if that is the analogy then whether we are alive forever or not is pointless if there is no knowledge of it.

So if that is the analogy then whether we are alive forever or not is pointless if there is no knowledge of it.
What I'm sayin' is one can be alive and not aware. Sleeping isn't pointless.

I agree, sleep is not pointless. But saying that is one is always alive forever and it's just like sleeping (for example) kind of makes the whole 'alive forever' issue pointless since, like sleep, we aren't aware of it. Basically whether we are alive forever or not is indeed pointless if there is no consciousness of it. Does that make sense? :)

I agree, sleep is not pointless. But saying that is one is always alive forever and it's just like sleeping (for example) kind of makes the whole 'alive forever' issue pointless since, like sleep, we aren't aware of it. Basically whether we are alive forever or not is indeed pointless if there is no consciousness of it. Does that make sense? :)
No. What happens when you are asleep?

Nothing?

Nothing?
Oh my!

Enlighten me!

Enlighten me!
There's whole bunch of stuff going on during sleep --

Wakefulness, Alertness, Sleep, and Dreams (http://www.csun.edu/~vcpsy00h/students/sleep.htm)

Or similarly, but more accessible --

Our bodies at rest: What happens when we sleep - by E.L. Miller - Helium (http://www.helium.com/items/646224-our-bodies-at-rest-what-happens-when-we-sleep)

And best of all --

What Does Your Body Do While You're Asleep? | Big Site of Amazing Facts © (http://www.bigsiteofamazingfacts.com/what-does-your-body-do-while-youre-asleep)

I don't deny that but the person isn't aware of any of it. You could be sleeping for one hour or 14 hours, it's the same thing to the body owner - no consciousness. Once some one dies I'm quite certain that your cells don't repair themselves or that you move around 12 times a night.

Of course to say anything about what happens after death is pure conjecture since there are no facts to back it up. One could be asleep forever or one simply dies. If the 'sleep forever' gives you more comfort than so be it.

Once some one dies I'm quite certain that your cells don't repair themselves or that you move around 12 times a night....One could be asleep forever or one simply dies.
So where is your mind in all this?

Or one could "wake up" again after death.

Or one could "wake up" again after death.
Ah, so that's what you were driving at. I guess it could be re-awakened but that just sounds like wishful thinking to me.

Ah, so that's what you were driving at. I guess it could be re-awakened but that just sounds like wishful thinking to me.
Being senseless after death sounds like wishful thinking to me.

Ok. :) <nice try>

Ok. :) <nice try>
Nice try for what? You don't know what will happen after death, or what was going on before birth. Scientists haven't begun to uncap the secrets of the mind.

.. or what was going on before birth. .A sperm and an egg meet and merge.

A sperm and an egg meet and merge.
... or what was going on before conception.

...or what was going on before conception.Hopefully foreplay.

Hopefully foreplay.
Not with those guys (we know where their minds were) -- with the mind of the person-to-be.

This debate would probably come closer to an agreement if there were a suitable definition of consciousness. Unfortunately, not everyone can agree on what it is to be conscious.

One working definition of consciousness is to regard it as a particular type of feeling or a "What is it like?" experience. In terms of this debate we can ask, "what is it like for me to be alive, or you to be a live?" In other words, what is this experience like? This is probably the best we can do because it is a meaningless question to ask someone. "What were your pre-birth experiences?"

Someone is conscious if there is something it is like to be that person. This is the so-called subjective nature of experience. As it stands I have no experience of what it was like before my birth. In a similar fashion I can say that I have no experience of what it is like to be a dog, cat or a horse.

We are restricted to the resources of our own mind. We could IMAGINE what it was like before our birth in the same way we could IMAGINE what it is like to be a dog. Unfortunately, extrapolation from our own point of view won't answer, "What is it like?" Imagination won't give us the subjective nature of experience.



Tut

The person to-be was molecules that formed the sperm and the egg, nothing more, nothing less. Why do we have to ascribe something more to it than that?

The person to-be was molecules that formed the sperm and the egg, nothing more, nothing less. Why do we have to ascribe something more to it than that?
Where did that spark come from, the spark that is NK, for instance, and not WG?

That's genetics. Other than that I'm not sure what you are referring to.

The person to-be was molecules that formed the sperm and the egg, nothing more, nothing less. Why do we have to ascribe something more to it than that?

Hi N.K.

On the basis of my definition I would say that it very difficult to ascribe something more to it than what you have outlined above.


Regards

Tut

That's genetics. Other than that I'm not sure what you are referring to.
Even the egg and sperm have a spark in them that's transferred to the organism that they create. They are not just blobs of molecules. Scientists can merge blobs, but have never created the spark.

Hi N.K.

On the basis of my definition I would say that it very difficult to ascribe something more to it than what you have outlined above.


Regards

Tut
Then it should be easy for scientists to replicate this and make a person.

I think that at death it's a huge multi orgasmic event, then nothing , until you're kicked out into a shute and wham born again. A continuous orgasmic event, sounds like a plan...

Then it should be easy for scientists to replicate this and make a person.


You are a very perceptive person W.G. I take my hat off to you.

You may the Philosophical Zombie argument interesting.

Philosophical zombie - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie)


Regards

Tut

Then it should be easy for scientists to replicate this and make a person.
Correct. It's called in-vitro fertilization.

Correct. It's called in-vitro fertilization.
Wrong. That's taking already existing egg and sperm.

I mean the scientists create the egg and sperm out of globs of stuff lying around in the lab and then join them to make a person (who has a spark, a mind, a "soul," if you will).

Wrong. That's taking already existing egg and sperm.

I mean the scientists create the egg and sperm out of globs of stuff lying around in the lab and then join them to make a person (who has a spark, a mind, a "soul," if you will).
I wasn't aware that that was the question here: can scientists create life outside of the natural sexual way of creating life. I don't know the answer to that nor do I ponder it.

A person is a person though, I don't understand what you mean by "spark" though I have met people with no spark. I realize that you really want to bring some god into the picture and if so that's your belief. I don't have the same belief. To each his own.

I realize that you really want to bring some god into the picture
No, I don't.

Ok then, where does the "spark" come from?

Ok then, where does the "spark" come from?
We haven't gotten around yet to agreeing there is one.

A person is a person though, I don't understand what you mean by "spark" though I have met people with no spark. I realize that you really want to bring some god into the picture and if so that's your belief. I don't have the same belief. To each his own.

Hi NK,

I think what Wondergirl means by "spark" is that there is something "additional" when it comes to experience. Perhaps the best analogy is to consider the possibility of a philosophical zombie. That is, a creature that is like us in every way except that it doesn't have feelings. It functions a lot like a scientific creation/ robot. David Chalmers would say that with philosophical zombies, "all is dark inside".

Philosophical zombies (if they could exist) are less than human. They are like us in every way except they lack "spark" that is, the additional element of feelings or 'what is it like? Experiences.

I think it boils down to this:

If philosophical zombies can exist then Wondergirl is right.

If philosophical zombies are an impossibility the N.K. is right.

At this stage of the debate there is no need to bring God into the picture.

Don't worry about what we agree on. You asked me questions and I answered based on my version of things, I want to hear yours now - you brought up the whole spark thing.

If philosophical zombies can exist then Wondergirl is right.Ok. Where can such creatures be found?

Ok. Where can such creatures be found?

Hi N.K.

They can only be found in thought experiments. If philosophical zombies are theoretically possible then physicalism ( scientific reductionism) is false.

To put it another way, it is false that the mind can be reduced to the function of the brain.

This is because humans have something "extra" ( call it a spark if you like).That philosophical zombies don't have.

As I said before, if philosophical zombies are logically impossible then physicalism is an adequate explanation. There is no "spark".


Regards

Tut

Tut, it is not only humans that have that "spark of life." All animals have that, what differentiates humanity is our ability to become self-aware and question who we are.

I agree tremendously with everything else.

Tut, it is not only humans that have that "spark of life." All animals have that, what differentiates humanity is our ability to become self-aware and question who we are.

I agree tremendously with everything else.


Hi bendingleconte,

I agree with what you are saying about animals.

From a dualist point of view... Yes, there is something it is like to be an certain type of animal. On this basis consciousness has a distinctive subjective character about it. This subjective character seems to extend to animals. It seems as though many animals have phenomenological consciousness (conscious of their environment).

The problem is that we don't know, 'what it is like' to be a dog or a cat. The other problem is that it is very difficult to come up with a suitable definition of consciousness.


Regards

Tut

By my own beliefs, I would say no. Without getting into the details, life is eternal, but not necessarily humanity. Humans came from life, but that doesn't mean that human beings will continue on as humans for eternity. First you have to believe that energy itself is life to fully understand.

With regards to your consciousness you are original born at your conception , with regards to your physical bean every thing that is born is born from a living creature so in essence you evolved at the birth of life 2 billion years ago here on earth and you have been alive ever since