Hello:

Should the contents of our classroom history books be written by politicians or teachers? Do you KNOW who writes your local classroom history books? If you live in progressive Massachusetts, for example, would you want your history books to be written by red necked Texans? I'll bet not.

Guess what?

excon

Not sure why you bring up Massachusetts when the controversy making the news in in Texas .

Do you think that there should be national education standards ? And if so ,who administers them ?

What do I want ? I want marketplace competition ;and standards set by states. In my world the school boards would have a variety of texts to choose from and the publisher would have to sell their product to the boards. On my ideal school board there would be a committee of citizens who actually read the texts and evaluate them before a recommendation is made to the board for selection.

Absent that ;it appears that in Texas there is a State Board of Education that made the determination . Not quite local standards but better than national standards.

I gots a good suggestion for them .It is a history book written by a historian . He is a graduate from Harvard and got his doctorate at Columbia .He has Ivy League pedigree .
He is a senior fellow at the Ludwig von Mises Institute which was founded in 1982 as the research and educational center of classical liberalism, libertarian political theory, and the Austrian School of economics.His name is Thomas E Woods Jr and he is the author of 'The Politically Incorrect Guide to American History '
The politically incorrect guide to ... - Google Books (http://books.google.com/books?id=ltSIOnW6XLsC&dq=politically+incorrect+guide+to+american+history&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=1R34S9ntEsX6lweU9qGFCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Not sure why you bring up Massachusetts when the controvery making the news in in Texas .

Do you think that there should be national education standards ? And if so ,who administers them ?

What do I want ? I want marketplace competition ;and standards set by states. Hello tom:

I bring up Massachusetts because, due to the size of Texas, apparently what Texas decides should be in their school books, is going to be in Massachusetts school books too. Yeah - NY's too.

Oh, I KNOW what you want. Dream on.

excon

Not sure why you bring up Massachusetts

I gots a good suggestion for them .It is a history book written by a historian . He is a graduate from Harvard and got his doctorate at Columbia .He has Ivy League pedigree .
He is a senior fellow at the Ludwig von Mises Institute which was founded in 1982 as the research and educational center of classical liberalism, libertarian political theory, and the Austrian School of economics.His name is Thomas E Woods Jr and he is the author of 'The Politically Incorrect Guide to American History '
The politically incorrect guide to ... - Google Books (http://books.google.com/books?id=ltSIOnW6XLsC&dq=politically+incorrect+guide+to+american+history&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=1R34S9ntEsX6lweU9qGFCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Hi Tom,

I had a quick look at the book on Google. I cannot comment on its content because I haven't read it.

I am assuming the book is an historical account so I am wondering why there are no footnotes. I don't know much about American History but I assume like all historical accounts footnotes are required for such things as facts being open to interpretation etc.
I would reject it on this basis as being suitable for historical research ( just my opinion).

Perhaps it is not such a good idea leaving book selection to the forces of the free market.

Regards

Tut

Tut I have not read it since it's
1st publishing . You may be right about it although I don't recall standard high school textbooks being heavily bookmarked either .

In truth there is a lot about the book I disagreed with.As an example , I am not of the opinion that the South was right .For that alone I would not recommend it as a hight school text.

The reason I mentioned it was because of the author's connection the libertarian Australian School of Economics ,and the fact that the author is a "historian" .
But also Woods demonstrates that history is fact and interpretation ,and that not everyone shares the same interpretations of the facts. Woods better than most makes clear the distinction .

Edit should read Austrian School of Economics

I find issues with many history books,

Examples are Lincoln and the civil war, while slavery was a little part of the issue, it was not the main issue that caused the war, but in most schools today that is what is taught
The entire issues of state rights are not even discussed

That is just one issue, IN most the ideas of religious freedom being part of the move to America is lost, and of course a lot of the areas where religion formed the laws of America is missing.

Abuses against the Ameican Indian are glossed over by most

The real issue is that all history books are written by some person or group who has their own agenda or taught by teachers with their agenda.

I am personally surprised that students in public schools have any real knowledge of American history that is even close to correct

[QUOTE=tomder55;2361955]

The reason I mentioned it was because of the author's connection the libertarian Australian School of Economics ,and the fact that the author is a "historian" .


Hi Tom,

I didn't think that there were any libertarian economists in Australia. But it seems there must be at least one.

Regards

Tut

Fr there is not a single secondary cause of the Civil War that can't be tied to slavery. What was the state right ? The right to enslave .

Good grief what a week! 1st Rand Paul tries to justify systemic discrimination at a restraurant.. .
The history books get a lot wrong . But not the civil war .

[QUOTE=tomder55;2361955]

The reason I mentioned it was because of the author's connection the the libertarian Australian School of Economics ,and the fact that the author is a "historian" .


Hi Tom,

I didn't think that there were any libertarian economists in Australia. But it seems there must be at least one.

Regards

Tut

Probably not . Of course I meant Austrian School . I will edit .

Texas and California have the most input into what goes into all text books as they are the largest customers for the manufactures of them. Texas being the more conservative of the two is putting a lot of time is due to the current temp of the American people. Take a look at a child's history book and you will see that the present book is more indoctrination than history. American parents have had enough hence the reason for all the attention. Check out the Teacher's Union and their president that will answer your question on why the teacher's should not be deciding on text

Take a look at a child's history book and you will see that the present book is more indoctrination than history. American parents have had enough hence the reason for all the attention. Check out the Teacher's Union and their president that will answer your question on why the teacher's should not be deciding on text

Hi meyowgee,

Could you elaborate on the above. I don't know anything about how the various states decide on what texts should be taught in schools. I am not a American citizen so I know very little about the politics involved.

Tut

Texas and California have the most input into what goes into all text books as they are the largest customers for the manufactures of them.

Yup ,Florida also regularly replace their texts with new additions.Texas has the most clout because they spend the most on education($42 billion) with a large chunk of it going towards textbooks. The "Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills" (TEKS) is the committee that decides which books will get purchased .It consists of a mix of teachers and connected political insiders .

But ,Texas and other adoption states allow citizens to read the texts and submit public comment. Thus ,conservatives and Christian groups mobilize to influence the decision in Texas ;and liberal groups like Norman Lear's People for the American Way influence California's decision.

As to who writes them... they are more compiled by the publishers than authored by any single individual or group of individuals.For the most part they are generic and bland .The authors who's name appears on the text gets paid for having their name as the author . But they in fact do not write the books.
unbossed.com » Accountability; History Textbooks Receive a Failing Grade (http://www.unbossed.com/index.php?itemid=954)

The process described in the OP is not new .It is only newsworthy because Texas revised their standards.

Take a look at a child's history book and you will see that the present book is more indoctrination than history.
Not so much that ,but the debate over history texts mirrors the so called culture wars in the country.
The changes adopted are only mildly corrective of the trend over the years for adding liberal bias into the text.

There are about 100 changes adopted by the selection board. Most of them are things like calling the westward movement of the US "expansion" instead of "imperial " ;"Free Enterprise system " replaces " capitalism" .

California has a bill going through their legislature that would bar the changes adopted in Texas from textbooks used in California . Perhaps if progressive Massachusetts objects to the changes they will adopt California standards.. or write their own and pay the publishers to produce a text book more to their liking.

or write their own and pay the publishers to produce a text book more to their liking.

This is the key to the debate. If Random House and Scholastic could show a profit from the few thousand texts they sell to MA or TN or SC then the TX debate would have little significance. CA and TX are big enough that when, say IA, goes to purchase textbooks there's the ones for TX or the ones for CA or they can spend fifty to a hundred times as much to have their standards published.

I don't know of a lot of school boards that can afford their own.

How many versions of History should your child learn or should facts be the reason for the course. Perhaps the children would better off learning how so use the library and how to research. No matter what text your child is handed the first day of school you should read it and educate your own child. Don't let people you don't know decide who your child becomes.

How many versions of History should your child learn or should facts be the reason for the course. Perhaps the children would better off learning how so use the library and how to research. No matter what text your child is handed the first day of school you should read it and educate your own child. Don't let people you don't know decide who your child becomes.

This is the problem. Should they study the facts about Sergeant York or W.E.B. Dubois? Osama bin Laden or Madeline Albright? There's only so much space in the book.

for example, would you want your history books to be written by red necked Texans? I'll bet not.

Guess what?

There you go profiling again. It ain't my fault that you guys buy textbooks influenced by us 'rednecks.'

I was not educated in both private and public schools to this day my favorite place is the library. When I was is History class a period is History was divided into chunks of time. The class was then divide into groups and each group presented there finding. The teacher was there to guide the learning process. Today schools teach you how to pass test to grade the schools. A true education is one that teaches you how to learn not how to vomit fact for a test.

Yup ,Florida also regularily replace their texts with new additions.Texas has the most clout because they spend the most on education($42 billion) with a large chunk of it going towards textbooks. The "Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills" (TEKS) is the committee that decides which books will get purchased .It consists of a mix of teachers and connected political insiders .

But ,Texas and other adoption states allow citizens to read the texts and submit public comment. Thus ,conservatives and Christian groups mobilize to influence the decision in Texas ;and liberal groups like Norman Lear's People for the American Way influence California's decision.

As to who writes them....they are more compiled by the publishers than authored by any single individual or group of individuals.For the most part they are generic and bland .The authors who's name appears on the text gets paid for having their name as the author . But they in fact do not write the books.
unbossed.com » Accountability; History Textbooks Receive a Failing Grade (http://www.unbossed.com/index.php?itemid=954)

The process described in the OP is not new .It is only newsworthy because Texas revised their standards.

Not so much that ,but the debate over history texts mirrors the so called culture wars in the country.
The changes adopted are only mildly corrective of the trend over the years for adding liberal bias into the text.

There are about 100 changes adopted by the selection board. Most of them are things like calling the westward movement of the US "expansion" instead of "imperial " ;"Free Enterprise system " replaces " capitalism" .

California has a bill going through their legislature that would bar the changes adopted in Texas from textbooks used in California . Perhaps if progressive Massachusetts objects to the changes they will adopt California standards .. or write their own and pay the publishers to produce a text book more to their liking.


Hi Tom,

Reading the above is a real eye-opener for me. I see it as amazing coming from a different country.

You people have a real educational problem at the High School level.

Regards

Tut

We have an education problem at all levels. Grade school children are being told that we are letting countries are starving and we have too much. They neglect to tell them that these countries are refusing food from us because we alter our crops so they are pest resistant and have a higher yield, But our kids are told only one side of the story. Parents wake up and find out what your child is learning.

I have to agree with meyowgee.

Our education system is dysfunctional ,overly bureaucratic ,beholden to powerful unions and generally don't serve in the best interests of the students.
The best ideas for innovative solutions are stifled by the special interests involved.

I have to agree with meyowgee.
So what are the things you would get rid of and change and improve?

So what are the things you would get rid of and change and improve?

The NEA would be a good place to start getting rid of.

Changes might include seniority-based pay being replaced with a meritorious system. The next place I'd look would be stopping the promoting of the best teachers into management and letting them teach. Principals needn't come from the classroom just as military officers needn't come from the ranks.

The NEA would be a good place to start getting rid of.

Changes might include seniority-based pay being replaced with a meritorious system. The next place I'd look would be stopping the promoting of the best teachers into management and letting them teach. Principals needn't come from the classroom just as military officers needn't come from the ranks.
... and as library directors needn't come from the reference librarian ranks.

I'm good with all that. What else? Schoolday content?

So what are the things you would get rid of and change and improve?
Mass firings at R.I. school may signal a trend - USATODAY.com (http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2010-02-24-all-educators-fired_N.htm)

I agree with all of Cats' suggestions.Basically there is little accountability in the current tenure system and that has to change . Performance should be the only criteria for keeping a job.
You know I think competition is a good place to start .Schools from administration ,teachers on down should be held accountable for results . States should remove restrictions on the creation of charter school alternatives... and I am a believer in vouchers to allow parents the option of sending their children to private schools.
Encourage the increased participation of parents and businesses because they will clearly benefit from an educated work force. Direct corporate sponsorship or indirect through programs like America's Schools program should be expanded to give schools additional funding alternatives.America's Schools Program (http://www.americas-schools.org/)

Don't have time to list more. Regarding the OP ;clearly the system for text books is a scam but I don't have a better alternative in mind except perhaps a deemphisis of the use of text books . History is best taught as a story;a tale rather than droll factoids . I was lucky enough to have a few teachers who taught it that way and I was hooked for life .

perhaps a deemphisis of the use of text books
Unfortunately, the students now who are headed for a career in education haven't been taught well. The students can't read or write or do math. Do we want them teaching the next generation of students?

The fired RI teachers are being allowed to return (http://www.wpri.com/dpp/news/local_news/central-falls-teachers-jobs-spared-) to work... after agreeing to the district's expectations that led to the firings:

* School day extended by half hour (8a.m.- 3p.m.)
* Provide one hour weekly school tutoring for each student
* Stronger evaluation system
* Teachers will also have to interview with the school's new principal

In other words, I think the district expects them to teach and be held accountable.

Might I suggest that we change the school day to Mon through Thur for the kids for 10 hours a day. The teachers attend Mon -- Fri any child that is not up to par attends on Friday where the teacher in available with out distraction to work with the child who needs more help. If the teacher is good and her children are doing well Friday is an early out. This has a built in incentive to do well for both parties. A three day weekend every week. How would you react if you we're given the same chance. Secondly testing should be written only past third grade. This gives the teacher a better feel for what the children know.
Teacher's need to be tested and scored based on criteria such as student performance, knowledge and ability to preform. No more union job for life just like the real world you are bad and your gone.

A three day weekend every week.
What will working parents do with their kids all day Friday?

testing should be written only past third grade
I was a teacher. The basics are taught from grades one through four. If there's no testing during these grades, teachers will have no idea of what their students know.

you are bad and your gone.
No. If you are bad, you are given a leg up on how to improve, are watched and tested and coached--so you can become a good teacher and not be thrown out like yesterday's trash. In fact, also go right to the college programs that train teachers and straighten them up. (P.S. It's "you're" = "you are gone," not "your gone.")

Sorry about the confusion testing as is K - 2nd is fine this is a time for skill building. By third grade a child should be able to form a sentence and prove he has a working knowledge of the subject matter.
Parent's will cope need be. My favorite day is Grandma day each week and my grandchild looks forward to it.
I've educated 3 children in both public and private systems. I have had to deal with good, great and poor teachers. I feel no one is even close to good
Till year 3. My problem is with the union protecting and paying a teacher that is so bad he no longer has a class. You know the guy who is running his internet business will he sits in any empty room because he can not be fired. I have been taxed to death for the children's sake for 30 years and I would pay more if I felt we the parent where not considered by the system as part of the problem.

I feel no one is even close to good till year 3.
I taught preschool for three years. It was much harder to teach that age group than it was to teach seventh graders. (No, we didn't play all day, and even the play we did was a learning thing.) I had to spend a lot more time preparing lessons and activities beforehand, so I cannot imagine why you think "no one is even close to good till year 3." If it weren't for teachers before 4th grade, the students may as well stay home. They would have no foundation on which to build.

Parent's will cope need be.
I'm not sure what that means. "Parents" doesn't get an apostrophe; it's not possessive.

Too many parents DON'T "cope." That is another place that needs help--the students' homes. Too many students don't get the parental support and overseeing they need. I don't mean help with homework, but just making sure the student does his homework and eats the right foods and gets to bed on time.

Sorry WonderGirl the point I was trying to make was The Teacher needs a least that many years to get good at her job. By the way 20 years with preschoolers as lead teacher and trainer is where I'm coming from. I have a great respect for teachers good ones. I spend lots of my own time preparing for that so called play. I also check on and guide the 4 other preschool teachers.

Helping parents cope is part of the job. Not judging is doing the job right.

Sorry WonderGirl the point I was trying to make was The Teacher needs a least that many years to get good at her job. By the way 20 years with preschoolers as lead teacher and trainer is where I'm coming from. I have a great respect for teachers good ones. I spend lots of my own time preparing for that so called play. I also check on and guide the 4 other preschool teachers.
YOU are a teacher?

Point made

point made
Yes, you certainly did (in ways you can't imagine)!

you are bad and your gone.

No. If you are bad, you are given a leg up on how to improve, are watched and tested and coached--so you can become a good teacher and not be thrown out like yesterday's trash.

I have seen the tenure system in action . I know that under it quality teachers are also discarded before tenure kicks in for budgetary considerations that have nothing to do with the job the teacher did.

The system and the union is a joke. In NJ and here in NY the unions refused to even consider temporary pay freezes that probably would have lasted a year at most .School systems across both states were forced into massive layoffs as a result.

No. If you are bad, you are given a leg up on how to improve, are watched and tested and coached--so you can become a good teacher and not be thrown out like yesterday's trash.

I have seen the tenure system in action . I know that under it quality teachers are also discarded before tenure kicks in for budgetary considerations that have nothing to do with the job the teacher did.

I am totally against tenure. I do believe a bad teacher should be given a chance to improve and be watched while appropriate retraining is done. Why the teacher is bad is very important. If the teacher is missing all sorts of vital pieces in his/her education, can't write a decent sentence, can't add or subtract, etc. and needs a lot of remedial work, then I believe that person should probably seek other employment. If, for instance, the teacher needs only classroom management skills, that can be taught and monitored and coached.

If, for instance, the teacher needs only classroom management skills, that can be taught and monitored and coached.


Yes the teachers here constantly take refresher course in such mundane topics as part of their recertification process.

But I think we agree that the issue at hand is the children getting a quality education .
Classroom management is part of a good learning environment .However ;
I have also seen cases where administration is wed to arcane ideas on that and what motivates students . Again, good teachers get sacrificed on the alter of orthodoxy. It is often the administrators that need to update their skill sets .

yes the teachers here constantly take refresher course in such mundane topics as part of their recertification process.

But I think we agree that the issue at hand is the children getting a quality education .
Classroom management is part of a good learning environment .However ;
I have also seen cases where administration is wed to arcane ideas on that and what motivates students . Again, good teachers get sacrificed on the alter of orthodoxy. It is often the administrators that need to update their skill sets .
It isn't mundane. Have you ever tried to manage a classroom of 35 kids, and the students are at every level from clueless to super-gifted? That's part of a quality education. And yes, the administrators have to know how to administer. Who's watching them? The board of education?