I was in church yesterday and the pastor preached on hell. He stated that 13% of what Jesus Christ is recorded as saying in the Gospels were concerning hell. He also thinks that it is politically incorrect to talk about it in our culture. Many preachers don't want to address the topic because people feel offended or don't like to hear about something so hopeless. So, what do you think? Do you think it is a real place? Do you think some people are headed there when they die? Do you have to be a BAD person to wind up there? Who do you think will go to hell?

Classy,

Your Pastor's statement makes sense to me. Remember, that he is in the business of guiding us people toward the opposite direction of Hell.

1) Yes, to me I believe that Hell is a real place.

2) Yes, I believe that some are pointing in that direction. Although I have no idea who or why they are bound for Hell. That said I pray that I am not one of them!

3) I believe that you have to earn your way into Hell. So yes, I believe that you have to break with the "Laws of God" and to do that you more than likely are a bad person. Heaven is the gift from God.

4) Very tough question. I have no idea. As I said earlier, I would not volunteer to make the trip willingly.

I believe that there are entire cultures that have not been exposed to Christianity in any form. But I do remember reading a book called "His Way(?)" by a Jesuit priest from Louisiana. He posited that a society will develop and standards of behavior will evolve whether Christian principles are employed. The judgement of Right or Wrong would be a society level including religious forms and customs.

If this is so, then even the most primitive of societies will be held to standards of right and wrong.

I believe that God will judge all in accordance with His/Her expectations. And since I am not God, I have no idea what to expect. Heaven will be nice though, don't you think. :)

Well, the religion I was raised in (mormonism) doesn't believe ANYONE goes to hell. As far as they're concerned, hell is just for the angels that fell with lucifer. Humans have never gone there, and never will.

That concept has mixed with karma, and a few personal ideals, in more recent years. I think that those who've committed crimes against man (not crimes against society or god) and are truly unremorseful, and have to face their crimes and how they effected others. Once they understand how they wronged others and are TRULY remorseful (not just pretending), they get to move onto whatever lies beyond.

I don't think hell is a place where people are sent for eternal punishment. That just wouldn't be fair. Everyone is worth a second chance, some just take longer to earn it than others.

Hhealth,

Interesting... I didn't know mormons believe that. I do agree that hell was made for satan and the fallen angels and I do NOT believe it is God's desire that any man go to hell.

Hhealth,

Interesting...i didn't know mormons believe that. I do agree that hell was made for satan and the fallen angels and I do NOT believe it is God's desire that any man go to hell.

I do believe there's a hell prepared for Satan and his angels, but I do believe there will be people who go there. What about people who have never heard of Jesus? I heard an excellent sermon on that while in Bible college. It was built on Romans 1. Everybody knows something about God; nature tells us certain things about him. Some people know more about God; he revealed things about himself to individuals and groups throughout history. And some know quite a bit about God; those of us who have his complete revelation have no excuse. But regardless of where someone is on that knowledge spectrum, they have to ACT on the information that they have. Someone who sees creation and can tell that something must have put it there and must keep it going, but chooses to worship the creation itself rather than the creator, is in the same boat as the person who knows who Jesus is and rejects him in favor of something else. IOW, God doesn't send people to hell; they make their choices and live with the consequences.

And regarding that opinion, I can only quote the great theologian D. Duck: "It's mine, I tell you! Mine, mine, mine! All mine!"

Well unfortunately Dave, I have to agree with you. I don't believe it is God's desire.. well I KNOW it isn't God's desire to send anyone there.

What has my heart broken is that I don't even believe it has to be a particularly BAD person. Just an unbeliever.

Incidentally, what do you make of the Bible saying that Judas went to "his own place"... after he died?

... Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Act 1:25

Any thoughts ?

He's sitting by himself in an empty room floating out in the ether?

I think Judas went to hell. The Bible states ,"he repented within himself", which tells me he didn't ask God for forgiveness.

I believe there are people who are good and who are nice people, but good works do not get you into heaven... it's the blood of Jesus Christ applied to your heart that does that.

Many people do not believe in Heaven or hell and the bible tells us there will be scoffers in the last days who will deny Christ. I think that day is here.

When the rich man died the bible says, "In hell he lifted up his eyes".
Preachers who are Godly will not be afraid to preach on Hell, it is their calling to warn the sinners or unsaved there are consequences for their unbelief.

God doesn't send people to hell, they send themselves by their disobedience. No man or woman in this world is perfect. There are people who mock Christs name and say "he isn't the Messiah even today. It will be a joyous day when he takes his children home and a horrible day for those who have trod upon his word and led others to their beliefs. Thank God for the lamb of God .

Thank God even I know my name is there in his book of life. I'm not perfect, just forgiven.

Sucks to me, then. I'm going to hell. Oops.

sucks to me, then. i'm going to hell. oops.

Hi Heath... Salvation is free to everyone. Jesus paid the price for our sins when he died on the cross. Whether we accept or not is our decision. I hope you look at the good Christians and not to the ones who like me , get angry and shame Jesus everyday. Christ has all the answers. Bless You Heath.

I was raised christian. It's just not a faith that fits me. So, I found a religion that fits me, and gives me a sense of peace and contentment I didn't have before.

I think each faith has it's own afterlife. Christians have their heaven and hell. Bhuddists have reincarnation. Wiccans have the summerlands. Each person will go to the afterlife that fits their religion.

I believe

Hell is a real place, We are told and warned about it in the bible.
God does not want anyone to go there, in fact he did not want it so badly he sent his Son to die for our sins, so we would not have to go.

All he needs is for us to accept it as a free gift.

So who will go, a lot of great, wonderful people who did good all the time, along with a lot of evil people, the ones who go are the people who have not accept Christ for their salvation

I think that as long as you lead a good life and treat others kind that you will be in a good place after you die whether you believe in Jesus / God or in Buddha or whatever it is you believe. I would hate to think I'm going to hell for being a buddhist or another religion besides the ones that worship God. I believe there's definitely a God out there but I don't believe in Heaven or hell I believe in afterlife =) I don't even fall into any one religion my beliefs can't be labeled.. not by any religion that I know of and besides how much of the bible can you take literally after all it was translated! I pray to buddha when when I feel like I'm in danger and my son is also blessed as a buddhist. But when he grows up ofcouse it is his choice. I also go to temple not church I doubt I will go to Hell for this. It's different for everyone but the one rule is to treat others the way you want to be treated and I think you can't go wrong if you follow that.

i was raised christian. It's just not a faith that fits me. So, i found a religion that fits me, and gives me a sense of peace and contentment i didn't have before.

It's not about how you feel or how I feel; it's about truth.


i think each faith has it's own afterlife. Christians have their heaven and hell. Bhuddists have reincarnation. Wiccans have the summerlands. Each person will go to the afterlife that fits their religion.

Wow. Reality tells us that a thing can't be both X and not-X at the same time. Buddhism says there's reincarnation, Christianity says you die once and then judgment. These two diametrically opposite teachings can't both be correct. One or the other can be right, or they can both be wrong, but they can't both be right. It's a logical impossibility.

Well unfortunately Dave, I have to agree with you. I don't believe it is God's desire..well I KNOW it isn't God's desire to send anyone there.

What has my heart broken is that I don't even believe it has to be a particularly BAD person. Just an unbeliever.

Incidently, what do you make of the Bible saying that Judas went to "his own place"...after he died?

.... Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Act 1:25

Any thoughts ?

Good question. I would assume it means he went to hell, but it could have to do with his being "displaced" as one of the twelve, as hinted at in the Psalms quotes that Peter mentioned in some of the previous verses. It doesn't necessarily specify that he went to "his own place" after he died; the expression that the KJV translates "by transgression fell" basically means "he turned away from it," so "his own place" could just mean "a position outside of the apostolic circle that he used to be part of." I sure wouldn't go to the stake for that idea, though.

Interesting question!

I was raised Catholic, I have s child out of wedlock, I drink, I smoke, I swear, and I lived with a man with out being married. I am damned.

I still believe in God, and I believe only he can judge me. So when that time comes, and I am standing before what ever may exists beyond this life, I know it is not a Mormon, a Catholic or a Jew who will judge me, but God himself. Whoever or what ever that may be.

It's not about how you feel or how I feel; it's about truth.



Wow. Reality tells us that a thing can't be both X and not-X at the same time. Buddhism says there's reincarnation, Christianity says you die once and then judgment. These two diametrically opposite teachings can't both be correct. One or the other can be right, or they can both be wrong, but they can't both be right. It's a logical impossibility.

Jesus own disciples doubted what he told them... But he arose on that third day. The Bibles says.. "he will come like a thief in the night". Many people are expecting their homes to be invaded or are afraid they will be,
So they have alarms and other devices against a thief. Christians are expecting him to come at anytime. We are armed with the blood he shed at Calvary.

Jesus said himself, There will be many , many who will say Lord I have prophesied in thy name and cast out devils, I have gone to church or I am a good person, but when we stand before him if we do not have the blood applied, he will say."Depart from me ye workers of iniquity, for I never knew you


I think the second coming of Jesus is at the door and many will say; They've been saying that for hundreds of years. Yes they have but the
day is drawing nearer. How wonderful it will be for God's children and how horrible for the ones who aren't saved. I think it will be wonderful
to see our loved ones and to see Jesus. I can't wait.

I believe all the prophesies have been fulfilled and it could be tomorrow, or next week . Whenever he comes back there will be people who will say
"oh my God, it was the truth, the Crucifixion, the resurrection and I'm lost. How sad. Bless all of you!

I was raised Catholic, I have s child out of wedlock, I drink, i smoke, I swear, and I lived with a man with out being married. I am damned.

i still believe in God, and I believe only he can judge me. So when that time comes, and I am standing before what ever may exists beyond this life, I know it is not a Mormon, a Catholic or a Jew who will judge me, but God himself. whoever or what ever that may be.

You're not damned unless you want to be; forgiveness is as available to you as it is to anybody else. That's the whole point. I was raised Baptist - or should I say, Bebdiss, since they're about the only denomination that can't seem to pronounce their own name - but I lived with a woman without being married, smoked for years, still drink occasionally, curse when the situation calls for it, and all the rest. It's not about what you do, it's about Who you know.

I have made my peace. I am who I am. I live my life to the best I can, I am the best I can be. I know there is always room for improvement, but I am at peace with my God.

Well they are both right to me because I believe there is A GOD that made the universe but that doesn't mean I have to believe everything in the bible is translated correctly.. and just because I believe buddhism teachings doesn't mean that I can't believe that Jesus existed And nobody can say who's beliefs are right are wrong because nobody will know until they die And yes I can believe in both because the people at the temple don't care if I believe in God or not.They teach me to have respect and not judge other people by their beliefs and to live in peace with each other regardless of religion

I didn't say I believed both I said I believe in afterlife and how you live your life dependson what life you have after you die.. I do not believe we die only once But I don't deny that there is a God because the universe wasn't magically created by nothing

I didn't say i believed both i said i believe in afterlife and how you live your life dependson what life you have after you die..I do not believe we die only once But i don't deny that there is a God becuase the universe wasn't magically created by nothing




God knows all our hearts. I won't judge anyone. It's up to God to do that. I wish all of you peace in your heart and happiness.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
Matthew 7:13-14

You might want to read 2 Peter chapter 2.

All:

Here is the thing, either what Jesus said was true or it was a big fat hairy lie. In regards to what Donna Mae posted :
John 14:6.

I am the way the truth and the life no man comes to the father but by me.

Jesus said it. So... is it true? That is my question? Is it really true. Are we deceiving ourselves when we think there is any other way?

There are people in this thread who are sweet and sincere. What I need to know is: Am I the one in deception thinking HE is the only way to the father or are THEY in deception. Because I don't see how there is a middle ground. What is everyone basing there beliefs on? Just what you THINK would be the way to heaven? OR what feels right? What if you are wrong?

Was Jesus a liar? Why would he say something like that if it weren't true. Anyone have any thoughts?

I think religion is open for interpretation. I just can't fathom there being one way. Look at the way the "rules" have changed over time. I think no one will really know until the time comes.

I wouldn't go so far as to call Jesus a liar, again, I think there is too much open for interpretation.

Be a good person, follow the Golden Rule, play nice and be fair, that's how I think you will get in heaven. One thing about God, who ever he is, universally he is loving, right? I think as long as you believe in something, just believing there is a higher power, makes you one step closer to Heaven. What ever, and where ever that may be.

I agree with Aurora she put it into way better words than me ! It told me to spread reputation though. Whatever our beliefs God knows if we are good people. If there is a Hell I don't think anyone who is a good person and treats others kindly and if they have a good heart will go there just for the simple fact that they have different beliefs.

I think religion is open for interpretation. I just can't fathom there being one way. Look at the way the "rules" have changed over time. I think no one will really know until the time comes.

I wouldn't go so far as to call Jesus a liar, again, I think there is too much open for interpretation.

Be a good person, follow the Golden Rule, play nice and be fair, that's how I think you will get in heaven. One thing about God, who ever he is, universally he is loving, right? I think as long as you believe in something, just believing there is a higher power, makes you one step closer to Heaven. What ever, and where ever that may be.








I know the way to heaven is through the blood of Jesus Christ. It's not uncommon to doubt, but if Satan can keep you in that valley of self doubt and second guessing than you cannot be an effective Christian. We all have questioned our beliefs at one time or the other. Jesus is the light of the world and I believe he is the only way to heaven.

I know people who are the kindest people in the world, yet they lack salvation. Religious and being in the Church is not salvation. I heard a pastor give a sermon on the subject of; Are you truly saved? Do you have only a form of Godliness? Being saved is repenting and trying your best to live as close to God as you can.

Repenting is being sorry for the life of sin you have led and truly giving up the worldly ungodly things we done before. I know my redeemer liveth, there is no question in my mind that someday or night the trumpet of the Lord will sound and we will be going home. I can't wait.

Bella,

You are a sweetie and I am sure if we did a checklist on the worst sinner... mine would be far more lengthy than yours. Sad but true, you have called yourself a sinner several times and in several threads. I'm just saying... so am I... so is everyone.

I don't know though guys. The Bible says over and over in different ways that all of our righteousness are as filthy rags. God's standard of a good heart and our standard are different.

Bablix,

What if you are wrong? I'm just asking because if there really is a hell and people DO go there, I just want to make sure I know the directions. I don't want to base anything on just my own thoughts or feelings. I want to dig and find out the truth. Reason says.. there has to be different ways to get to heaven but I have tried to find that in the Bible and I cannot.

I have so many friends and family who do not believe the Bible. They say it is just a book written by men. IF there is a God, they are banking on God being fair and just. But if Jesus was really God's son and he came and died for us if we reject him for a better way and God sends us to hell, does that make him unfair? Any thought?


I know one thing the Bible does say.in the OT in the book of Judges... it says everyone was doing what they thought was right in their own eyes :

Judges 21: 25... every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Incidentally, God wasn't very happy about it either.

Do you think it is the same as today? Do you think that is what people do, they create what is the best fit for them. Hheath said she was raised Christian but ended up in another faith because it suited her better. Do we get that choice? I'm just asking... I really want to know...

Dave,

You said some things were lost in translating the bible... I'd consider you an expert on that topic... how can we really know what the Bible says has hasn't been completely lost in translation? It is a fair question.

Bella,

you are a sweetie and I am sure if we did a checklist on the worst sinner...mine would be far more lengthy than yours. Sad but true, you have called yourself a sinner several times and in several threads. I'm just saying...so am I...so is everyone.

I don't know though guys. The Bible says over and over in different ways that all of our righteousness are as filthy rags. God's standard of a good heart and our standard are different.

Bablix,

What if you are wrong? I'm just asking because if there really is a hell and people DO go there, I just want to make sure I know the directions. I don't want to base anything on just my own thoughts or feelings. I want to dig and find out the truth. Reason says..there has to be different ways to get to heaven but I have tried to find that in the Bible and I cannot.

I have so many freinds and family who do not believe the Bible. They say it is just a book written by men. IF there is a God, they are banking on God being fair and just. But if Jesus was really God's son and he came and died for us if we reject him for a better way and God sends us to hell, does that make him unfair? any thought?


I know one thing the Bible does say.in the OT in the book of Judges...it says everyone was doing what they thought was right in their own eyes :

Judges 21: 25 .....every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Incidently, God wasn't very happy about it either.

do you think that is the same as today? do you think that is what people do, they create what is the best fit for them. Hheath said she was raised Christian but ended up in another faith because it suited her better. do we get that choice? I'm just asking....i really want to know...

Dave,

you said some things were lost in tranlsation in the bible...I'd consider you an expert on that topic...how can we really know what the Bible says has hasn't been completely lost in translation? It is a fair question.







Faith... we take the word of God as being true... by faith. By his stripes we are healed. That means we are his. It doesn't mean we aren't going
To sin, because we are, we are human. God gives us mercy.. if he gave us justice ,what we deserved we would all be in big trouble.

"What can wash away my sins? Nothing but the blood of Jesus".

Good question. I would assume it means he went to hell, but it could have to do with his being "displaced" as one of the twelve, as hinted at in the Psalms quotes that Peter mentioned in some of the previous verses. It doesn't necessarily specify that he went to "his own place" after he died; the expression that the KJV translates "by transgression fell" basically means "he turned away from it," so "his own place" could just mean "a position outside of the apostolic circle that he used to be part of." I sure wouldn't go to the stake for that idea, though.

Interesting question!

Maybe. I don't know I have always wondered about what "his own place" meant. And another thing regarding Judas... why is he and the man of sin or the antichrist called the son of perdition? They are the only ones I know of referred to the same way. Wonder if we are missing something important there.

Dave,

you said some things were lost in translating the bible...I'd consider you an expert on that topic...how can we really know what the Bible says has hasn't been completely lost in translation? It is a fair question.

Wow, how much time and bandwidth do we have? First, I don't recall actually saying some things were "lost." There are things that are hard to translate because of cultural differences and things like that, and there are words and phrases, especially in the Old Testament, that we're not sure of their meaning, but that's why study and research goes on. If we had all the answers my life, for one, would be even duller than it already is.

I'll focus on the New Testament for the sake of space. First, we know what 99 44/100% of it reads, because we have copies upon copies upon copies from as far back as the second century and we have the tools and the science to sort through them. So we know the Greek text we have is a faithful representation of what the apostles and their companions actually wrote.

Second, we know more about the actual Greek language used in the New Testament than we do about any other ancient language, with the possible exception of Latin (I'm not sure about that; Latin isn't within my bailiwick). One thing that helped us immensely was the discovery of some ancient garbage dumps. Yes, you read that right. Garbage dumps. Turns out people took their letters, bills of sale, grocery lists, school notes, and what-have-you and threw them away when they were done with them. Those documents from the "regular people" of the New Testament era tell us a LOT about the language they used. Once upon a time, before these discoveries, we knew that the Greek of the New Testament was very different from that of the "Attic" writers like Plato and the others; it was assumed that, because it was the Bible, that Greek was some kind of "sacred" language created especially for the holy books. Wrong! It was the "gutter" language of the common people.
We now call it Koine Greek, "Koine" being the Greek word for "common." It's like the difference between the English you might read in the Congressional Record and the English you might read in the note you write to yourself as a reminder. From those documents found in the ancient trash, nearly all written on papyrus and preserved in the deserts of Egypt, we learned what Koine Greek actually is and got a much better understanding of how it works.

The biggest problem we have today isn't with the Greek text, it's with our English. Like you, I grew up with the KJV and did most of my memorization in it. But it's not written in English any more. People coming at it for the first time get lost easily because it's a foreign language. English has changed so much in the last 400 years that even words like "breakfast" have undergone drastic changes in meaning just within my lifetime. That's why we keep having to come up with new translations, not because the Bible has changed, but because we have.

The good news is, even folks who don't read Greek (i.e. aren't major geeks like me; you have to be more than a little warped to get into it as much as I have!) can know with a high degree of certainty what the Bible says, because each translation gives a little more nuance of meaning, gives a little more insight, takes advantage of new discoveries, and all the rest. For someone who's new to the Bible I tend to recommend The Message, because it's a faithful rendering and gets the major points across in language that's accessible to just about any reading level. For deeper study, I like to compare the NIV and the NASB. I have some problems with translations like the Amplified and Wuest's Expanded Translation, because they tend to over-translate; they find meanings in words and phrases that aren't really there. The NRSV is okay, though it tries a little too hard to please everyone. There are a couple of newer ones that have come out recently, but I haven't had a chance to look at them yet so I can't comment.

Anyway, a combination of ongoing increase of knowledge about the language, careful work in rendering it as faithfully as possible into English, knowing the history of the text itself and how it came to us and how accurate it is, all work together to give us a Bible that we can trust to tell us what the writers wrote.

Believe it or not, that's the short version!

I wouldn't go so far as to call Jesus a liar, again, I think there is too much open for interpretation.


He said "I am the way...NO ONE comes to the father except through me." How is that "open for interpretation"? Either he was right or he wasn't. It's like saying "red is red." Either it is or it isn't; it's not a matter of interpretation. Again, a thing can't be X and not-X at the same time.

Hheath said she was raised Christian but ended up in another faith because it suited her better. do we get that choice? I'm just asking....i really want to know...


One of the most basic teachings of christianity is that god gave mankind freedom of choice. By that reasoning, I have the right to choose not to believe in him.

I spent 18 years of my life as a christian. Then I ended up having to reevaluate some major parts of my life. That eventually led me to reexamine my religion. I found out that I was only christian because people told me I should be. I didn't actually believe a lot of the teachings.

So, I went on a search for a religion I could believe in. I closely examined all the beliefs I already held true. Then I researched religions until I finally found one that felt right for me.

If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. I just don't think there is ONE religion that's right for everyone. The way I see it, there are three possibilities for the afterlife. Either I die and find myself going to the afterlife of my current religion, the one I was raised in, or one unrelated to either. Regardless of the outcome, I'll be dead and I see no reason to worry myself about it now.

Bella,
you have called yourself a sinner several times and in several threads. I'm just saying...so am I...so is everyone.




Really? I don't remember this...

To err is human to forgive is Godly. All humans sin. But God forgives. Believe what you will. Every one takes what they want to hear.

He said "I am the way...NO ONE comes to the father except through me." How is that "open for interpretation"? Either he was right or he wasn't. It's like saying "red is red." Either it is or it isn't; it's not a matter of interpretation. Again, a thing can't be X and not-X at the same time.

Okay so if I said brick red was the only red would you agree?

How can you be so sure YOUR God is the only one? Every one thinks THEIR God is the only one. So who is right?

Okay so if I said brick red was the only red would you agree?

That's not what you're saying, though. You're saying brick red is blue.


How can you be so sure YOUR God is the only one? Every one thinks THEIR God is the only one. So who is right?

How many of them rose from death under their own power? That's the difference. Jesus said he was/is the only way. Again, either he is or he isn't; there's no middle ground where he is for some but not for others. The word "only" eliminates that possibility. So how can we tell? That's where the resurrection comes in. We have historical verification that it happened; it's not a legend, not a tall tale, not a myth. We have it from the pens of folks who were there and saw it happen. None of the others have that kind of backing. That's why I often say there are two things I know for sure: there is a God, and Jesus rose from the dead. Most everything else is negotiable, but the resurrection of Jesus validates his claims. So when he says "I am the only way" I say "yes, sir."

That's not what you're saying, though. You're saying brick red is blue.





I don't have much time so I can only respond to this. Not once did I say that red was blue. (you know what I mean, I never once specified a specific colour to "red") I said it was open for interpretation. SO if I see the colour as red, you see it as fuchsia, it's open.

I am not saying that it is ANY one colour, I am saying we all see things in different lights. Open for interpretation.

Okay maybe a bad analogy, but it's the best I have right now :)

And I don't think this is a discussion if Jesus is real, because I sure as heck don't doubt him. I don't doubt or disbelieve in anyone's religion.

That's not what you're saying, though. You're saying brick red is blue.



How many of them rose from death under their own power? That's the difference. Jesus said he was/is the only way. Again, either he is or he isn't; there's no middle ground where he is for some but not for others. The word "only" eliminates that possibility. So how can we tell? That's where the resurrection comes in. We have historical verification that it happened; it's not a legend, not a tall tale, not a myth. We have it from the pens of folks who were there and saw it happen. None of the others have that kind of backing. That's why I often say there are two things I know for sure: there is a God, and Jesus rose from the dead. Most everything else is negotiable, but the resurrection of Jesus validates his claims. So when he says "I am the only way" I say "yes, sir."

jesus only said that believing in him is the only way to get to the christian god. He didn't say that he is the only way to get to ANY god.

I don't need jesus to get to my 'god.'

I'm not saying jesus never lived, or isn't the son of the christian god. I think he did live, and I have no opinion on the other. I will even admit that his teachings have great value. I've never once said that christianity is wrong, just that it's not right for me.

jesus only said that believing in him is the only way to get to the christian god. he didn't say that he is the only way to get to ANY god.

Um, you are aware that the Bible teaches there's only one, right? Jesus also taught that there's only one God. It's a consistent theme, and since his resurrection validates his words, it also validates his teaching that there's only one God. So since there's only one, yes, Jesus did say he's the only way to get to ANY god.

i don't have much time so I can only respond to this. Not once did I say that red was blue. (you know what I mean, I never once specified a specific colour to "red") I said it was open for interpretation. SO if I see the colour as red, you see it as fuchsia, it's open.

No, you're saying that red can be red or blue depending on one's interpretation. Once again, Jesus said he is the ONLY way. Either he is or he isn't; there's no middle ground, nothing that's "open for interpretation." What part of "a thing can't be both X and not-X at the same time" don't you understand?

What don't you understand about I am NOT debating JESUS. I am SAYING religion is OPEN for discussion.

Um, you are aware that the Bible teaches there's only one, right? Jesus also taught that there's only one God. It's a consistent theme, and since his resurrection validates his words, it also validates his teaching that there's only one God. So since there's only one, yes, Jesus did say he's the only way to get to ANY god.

And yet the bible mentions other gods. Did the birth of jesus make those gods cease to exist?

Exodus 12:12
And against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment.

Exodus 20:3, 5
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.. . Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.

Exodus 23:13
Make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

Numbers 33:4
Upon their gods also the LORD executed judgments.

Deuteronomy 6:14-15
Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you)

Joshua 24:2
They served other gods.

Judges 11:24
Wilt not thou possess that which Chemosh thy god giveth thee to possess?

Psalm 86:8
Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord.

How many gods are there? (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/gods.html)

Edit:

You say, "a thing can't be both X and not-X at the same time." OK, then which is it? Either there is only one god, as stated in the bible, or there are many gods, as stated in the bible.

Damn it Hheath I have to spread the rep.

No, you're saying that red can be red or blue depending on one's interpretation. Once again, Jesus said he is the ONLY way. Either he is or he isn't; there's no middle ground, nothing that's "open for interpretation." What part of "a thing can't be both X and not-X at the same time" don't you understand?

Hi Dave,

I think what Aurora Bell is getting at when it comes to colour is that perception of colour is different to thinking about colour. When perceiving there is an additional element (subjective) which is not involved when thinking about colour.

It is sometimes argued that there is a clear difference between seeing a red tomato and thinking about a red tomato. There seems to be an extra subjective element in the case of seeing.

When it comes to seeing it is difficult to say that my red is the same as your red. The x and not x might not be a good analogy in this particular instance.

Regards

Tut

and yet the bible mentions other gods. did the birth of jesus make those gods cease to exist?

Exodus 12:12
And against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment.

Exodus 20:3, 5
Thou shalt have no other gods before me. ... Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.

Exodus 23:13
Make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

Numbers 33:4
Upon their gods also the LORD executed judgments.

Deuteronomy 6:14-15
Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you)

Joshua 24:2
They served other gods.

Judges 11:24
Wilt not thou possess that which Chemosh thy god giveth thee to possess?

Psalm 86:8
Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord.

How many gods are there? (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/gods.html)

edit:

you say, "a thing can't be both X and not-X at the same time." ok, then which is it? either there is only one god, as stated in the bible, or there are many gods, as stated in the bible.

*yawn* Galatians 4:8. Isaiah 43:10. There are lots of things that are called "gods" by people in the Bible, but that doesn't make them actual deities. Elijah made this clear on Mount Carmel in 1 Kings 18. When Baal didn't answer he had a little fun: "where is he? Maybe he's asleep. Maybe he's on a trip. Maybe he's taking a crap. Call louder!" God makes fun of idols in Isaiah, where he talks about how a man cuts down a tree, uses part of it to burn and keep himself warm, and takes the rest and makes himself a "god" that he bows down to and prays to.

The Bible makes a lot more sense if you read the whole thing, not just the parts that you think support your notions.

Hi Dave,

I think what Aurora Bell is getting at when it comes to colour is that perception of colour is different to thinking about colour. When perceiving there is an additional element (subjective) which is not involved when thinking about colour.

It is sometimes argued that there is a clear difference between seeing a red tomato and thinking about a red tomato. There seems to be an extra subjective element in the case of seeing.

When it comes to seeing it is difficult to say that my red is the same as your red. The x and not x might not be a good analogy in this particular instance.

Regards

Tut

Fine, then call it wavelength in the red spectrum. That kind of hair-splitting gets us nowhere, and seems like nothing more than a weak dodge at best.

What don't you understand about I am NOT debating JESUS. I am SAYING religion is OPEN for discussion.


Hmmm D, I like how you skirted this one.

It's not anyone's place to judge another person. That is why it is so important to stop and evaluate yourself and by that I mean not just the people who are believers or non believers ,but who like me and you have different opinions.

Why do you have that opinion? Is there a hell? God Is there a heaven? I honestly know in my heart I would not be here today if it weren't for the grace of God.

Who in the world has not felt the goodness of God? You see his miracles when you look at your children or when you are at the lowest point in your life and he speaks in that still, small voice and it's so clear it is him you can almost reach out and touch his hand.

Hell is as real as the sun and the moon. Heaven will be more wonderful than anything you could ever imagine. There is one way to get to heaven, and one way to get to hell.

Unbelief is what will doom people to hell. Jesus says."my spirit will not always strive with man". By that he is saying, I will knock at the door of your heart... more than once and you may or may not ask me to dwell in your heart,
But if you you turn me away and keep saying I don't believe then one day I will not come back.

You can't be saved anytime you want too, the spirit of the Lord has to draw you and convict your heart, to let you know you are lost. God doesn't send anyone to hell. He gives them chance after chance.

He is a forgiving God and he weeps for the things, he sees going on in this world. It is his time now and I honestly believe we are nearing our heavenly home.

Hmmm D, I like how you skirted this one.

I didn't respond because it doesn't make sense.

OK

I think religion is open for interpretation. I just can't fathom there being one way. Look at the way the "rules" have changed over time. I think no one will really know until the time comes.


Rules do change over time, but God's word never changes. The only thing that changes are rules made by man.

I wouldn't go so far as to call Jesus a liar, again, I think there is too much open for interpretation.


Jesus was and is the only person to walk on this earth who never sinned. Therefore he could never be a liar.

Be a good person, follow the Golden Rule, play nice and be fair, that's how I think you will get in heaven. One thing about God, who ever he is, universally he is loving, right? I think as long as you believe in something, just believing there is a higher power, makes you one step closer to Heaven. What ever, and where ever that may be.


Doing God's will is the way to heaven. If we don't study His word to learn what we must do, then how do we expect to get to heaven? God is a loving God. He does love us--all of us, but He expects us to love Him too. He says, "If you love me you will keep my commandments." How can we keep His commandments if we don't read His word to know what they are? Being a good person only, is not the way to heaven either "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."We are His children and He really loves us, we just need to show Him that we really love Him too.

I have made peace with Heaven, and I've made peace with MY God. I stand by my beliefs. Maybe they are wrong, but maybe you're wrong too. Will I point my finger at you? No. Never. Who am I to judge?

I have asked for forgiveness, and I have asked for my own personal salvation. I am not going to do or pray to something I don't believe in. I know some of you are going to take that as me not believing. That is not true. I have MUCH faith. I am not so naïve and ignorant to believe MY religion is the only one. I never once debated Jesus.

If you REALLY want to know what I think about Christianity, I think is is one of the MOST barbaric of all religions.

O.k have at me.

Hell is as real as the sun and the moon. Actually it's not. The sun and moon are facts, hell is a belief.

Really? I don't remember this...


Sorry Bella, you weren't the one that repeatly said you were a sinner. I'm blamin my mistake on old age. Sorry girlie.. :)

one of the most basic teachings of christianity is that god gave mankind freedom of choice. by that reasoning, i have the right to choose not to believe in him.

i spent 18 years of my life as a christian. then i ended up having to reevaluate some major parts of my life. that eventually led me to reexamine my religion. i found out that i was only christian because people told me i should be. i didn't actually believe a lot of the teachings.

so, i went on a search for a religion i could believe in. i closely examined all the beliefs i already held true. then i researched religions until i finally found one that felt right for me.

if i'm wrong, then i'm wrong. i just don't think there is ONE religion that's right for everyone. the way i see it, there are three possibilities for the afterlife. either i die and find myself going to the afterlife of my current religion, the one i was raised in, or one unrelated to either. regardless of the outcome, i'll be dead and i see no reason to worry myself about it now.


I agree we are given free will and therfore the right to choose. When I asked the question do we get that CHOICE, I really meant to we get to pick another way to heaven if Jesus said otherwise?


Is God UNjust if he sends good, well intentioned people to Hell just because they chose a different path and reject what the Bible teaches about Jesus. For example : That he ( Jesus) actually became SIN for us on the cross and then God punished HIM instead of us and we now need to accept that by faith. Otherwise, according the bible, we die in our sins and then we are unfit to be in heaven, so we are sent to a devils hell. Is that FAIR?. Is God just or unjust for giving us a one way sign to heaven?

I agree we are given free will and therfore the right to choose. when I asked the question do we get that CHOICE, I really meant to we get to pick another way to heaven if Jesus said otherwise?


Is God UNjust if he sends good, well intentioned people to Hell just because they chose a different path and reject what the Bible teaches about Jesus. For example : That he ( Jesus) actually became SIN for us on the cross and then God punished HIM instead of us and we now need to accept that by faith. Otherwise, according the the bible, we die in our sins and then we are unfit to be in heaven, so we are sent to a devils hell. Is that FAIR? ....Is God just or unjust for giving us a one way sign to heaven?

I guess those looking to get into heaven need to decide if they have to believe in jesus in order to get there.

I'm not looking to get into heaven. It's never really been something I wanted. I still remember the looks on everyone's faces when I told them I thought heaven sounded like a very boring place full of stuck up people and I wasn't sure if I wanted to go there. I was about 12-14 years old and it was in the middle of a lesson at church.

I have made peace with Heaven, and I've made peace with MY God. I stand by my beliefs. Maybe they are wrong, but maybe you're wrong too. Will I point my finger at you? No. Never. Who am I to judge?

I have asked for forgiveness, and I have asked for my own personal salvation. I am not going to do or pray to something I don't believe in. I know some of you are going to take that as me not believing. That is not true. I have MUCH faith. I am not so naive and ignorant to believe MY religion is the only one. I never once debated Jesus.

If you REALLY want to know what I think about Christianity, I think is is one of the MOST barbaric of all religions.

O.k have at me.

OK... you are in big trouble... I'm beating you up for that. Lol lol

Well, don't blame the barbaric stuff on Christianity. Blame it on stupid, evil people who kill in the name of Christ or Christianity. There is NOTHING in what Christ taught that was barbaric. Quite the opposite... Love your neighbor as yourself. Don't get more peaceful than that.

People pervert things for their OWN agendas... been happening for centuries.

i guess those looking to get into heaven need to decide if they have to believe in jesus in order to get there.

i'm not looking to get into heaven. it's never really been something i wanted. i still remember the looks on everyone's faces when i told them i thought heaven sounded like a very boring place full of stuck up people and i wasn't sure if i wanted to go there. i was about 12-14 years old and it was in the middle of a lesson at church.

LOL when I was really young... younger than 12 or 14. I thought heaven was going to be me sitting on a couch with Jesus in the middle a bowl of fruit on a coffee table in front.. and the rest of my family sitting there with me. In my minds eye... we all looked thrilled as a peanut. BORED me just thinking about it. I don't know where that came from either... I was really little 5 maybe.

You know hheath I think, could be wrong, that you are equating a heaven with a boring church service and holier than thou people running around. I wouldn't want to go there either, I already LEFT a church like that. :D

When I read what little is really mentioned concerning "heaven"... it is more than a place. And it sure isn't about "people". It is all about the Lord Jesus. When the thief on the cross looked at the Lord and ask him to remember him when he ( Jesus) came into his kingdom... Jesus replied something like this ,today you will be with ME in paradise.

I think it will be a literal place but more importantly is is going to be about being with HIM. The problem is... most Christians don't really understand HIM. ( not that I do either ) but GOD is LOVE, Light, HOlY... all those things in perfection... it must be awesome is all I know. The Apostle Paul actually was caught up in the third heaven and he put it this way... he saw "unspeakable things." I don't think he had the words to even articulate what he saw. He was torn, he wanted to stay on this earth to get people to understand the gospel of Christ and yet he wanted to be with the Lord. Paul said to be absent from the Body is to be present with the Lord. Paul who got a glimpse of heaven was much more interested in the LORD of heaven. So.. I don't focus on heaven too much. My mind is finite and honestly can't comprehend the actual place.

( although I DO like to think about going through the buffet line at din din time and not gaining a pound... sorry off topic.. :D)

Whatever Hell is like, it will be the opposite, there will still be people, yes even stuck up ones... because they take their sin with them. BUT it will be absent of God. Actually it sounds horrifying... IF you believe the Bible... but if you don't... does it change anything?

The vision of heaven I always got was more idealistic. I was taught that heaven is like earth, only more real. To me, that translated into a big outdoor place with trees and grass and open sky. Everything was just a little too bright and the colors were a little too vibrant. There were people everywhere, wearing light colored clothes. They were either just walking around enjoying the scenery or talking quietly in groups.

There were no arguments or differences in opinion. There were no child running around (I was taught that everyone in heaven is without blemish and in the prime of health, which generally meant in their 20's). Everyone was perfectly happy and loved everyone else.

You know what? I still think it's a boring place.

Hheath,

LOL well, when you think it is going to be a scene from the Stepford Wives.. can't sayzzz I blame you. Lol :D

Hheath,

LOL well, when you think it is gonna be a scene from the Stepford Wives..can't sayzzz I blame ya. lol :D


Seeing our loved ones who have left us is just part of it. Heaven is a reward for God's children. Imagine never having to part from those you love again. Never being sick and seeing Jesus every single day. I think I would like to ask questions about why this happened or why that happened, but in Heaven I don't believe I'll want too.


A minister who thinks it's wrong to preach about hell.. needs to re examine himself.
He should be worried about helping people avoid Hell rather than worry about offending someone.

Hell will not be boring... people who are there don't want anyone else to come to be with them. Most people think (if they believe in Hell) that you just die immediately consumed by the fire. That isn't true. The Bible says torment is eternal and where the worm die th not.

The rich man asked Lazarus( the tramp on the street) to go to his brothers and tell them of that awful place, to tell them not to come there. And he begged for one drop of water to cool his tongue. There will be eternal screaming and gnashing of teeth. The screams of agony will be worse than anything you could ever imagine.

Think about what John said about heaven... "eyes have never seen nor ears have never heard what our father has in store for us". No one can convince me there is no Heaven or Hell. I can't convince anyone who believes otherwise that there is. I won't try, because if God doesn't give me the words in my heart to write here to those who don't believe I would end up saying something to hurt someone.

I will pray for peoples hearts to be opened to the truth and I do love all of you.

[QUOTE=Kitkat22;2357952 if God doesn't give me the words in my heart to write here to those who don't believe I would end up saying something to hurt someone.

I will pray for your heart to be opened to the truth and I do love all of you.[/QUOTE]

Kit,

I don't want to hurt anyone either. I started the thread to see what people believe and or what they base that belief on. If there is a hell, who is going? Whether someone has chosen to post an answer to my question or not, I just wanted to discuss it. I have NO intention of hurting anyone or proving anything. I think you had it correct earlier when you said it was all about that 5 letter word ( LOL I counted it on my fingers first... ) FAITH. Perhaps I should have put this in the religion discussion board.

Kit,

I don't want to hurt anyone either. I started the thread to see what people believe and or what they base that belief on. If there is a hell, who is going? Whether someone has chosen to post an answer to my question or not, I just wanted to discuss it. I have NO intention of hurting anyone or proving anything. I think you had it correct earlier when you said it was all about that 5 letter word ( LOL i counted it on my fingers first...) FAITH. Perhaps I should have put this in the religion discussion board.

No I think it's a wonderful thread. Who knows what may happen because of this thread. You are a blessing to me and I am so glad you started this thread. Someone may read this and it may change their life. Classy T there is a reason for this... I love it.. it makes me anxious to go to heaven and I thank you for putting that gladness back in my heart...

the vision of heaven i always got was more idealistic. i was taught that heaven is like earth, only more real. to me, that translated into a big outdoor place with trees and grass and open sky. everything was just a little too bright and the colors were a little too vibrant. there were people everywhere, wearing light colored clothes. they were either just walking around enjoying the scenery or talking quietly in groups.

there were no arguments or differences in opinion. there were no child running around (i was taught that everyone in heaven is without blemish and in the prime of health, which generally meant in their 20's). everyone was perfectly happy and loved everyone else.

you know what? i still think it's a boring place.

Those things you were taught are someone's opinion, nothing more. The simple truth is, nobody knows what it looks like or what it's going to be like (or is like, in the case of people like my sister who just recently went there). It's described as pleasant, as a place where people are happy. Everything else we have is metaphor and symbol, because our finite minds can't grasp the infinite. Me, I'm looking forward to exploring the universe, since I'm also an amateur astronomer. I've already told God that before he takes me there, I want to stop by Mars and check it out for a few days or more.

There was a thread on here not long ago asking what we think heaven looks like. I suggested that whatever is the most pleasant thing conceivable to you, it has an equal chance of being right. I could also go for a place where I can scuba dive for hours on end without running out of air or risking the bends.

Have you ever seen the claymation movie about Mark Twain? The two different heavens depicted there seem to sum up some people's opinion versus what the reality is likely to be. The one has a harp, a hymnbook and wings and dull music, where the other one is a nonstop party. I know which one I'll take!

I did not read any of the other answers but here goes.

Who do I think will go to hell? Can not say, it is not my place or my judgment to make.

Now the definitions of hell has different meanings for different people.

Even the word hell itself the meaning has changed over many years.

The original prayer that I used to pray in church. The part that said Jesus died, descended into the dead and rose in three days. That is today's version. Years ago it was worded Jesus descended into hell and rose in three days. Hell could be merely meaning death, or the grave...

As well. Hell another definition is that people create there own hell and there own separation from God. After there death. They recreate and relive their worst nightmare.

There is books that are included in the Catholic version of the bible that are not excepted by all denominations which talk about the seven days after death for the righteous and seven days of the evil and what they see and the steps they take. It is pretty cool to read and makes sense.

I did not read any of the other answers but here goes.

Who do I think will go to hell? Can not say, it is not my place or my judgment to make.

Now the definitions of hell has different meanings for different people.

Even the word hell itself the meaning has changed over many years.

The original prayer that I used to pray in church. The part that said Jesus died, descended into the dead and rose in three days. That is today's version. Years ago it was worded Jesus descended into hell and rose in three days. Hell could be merely meaning death, or the grave...

As well. Hell another definition is that people create there own hell and there own separation from God. After there death. they recreate and relive their worst nightmare.

There is books that are included in the Catholic version of the bible that are not excepted by all denominations which talk about the seven days after death for the righteous and seven days of the evil and what they see and the steps they take. It is pretty cool to read and makes sense.



Hi Joe... I know the Bible was written many, many centuries ago and I don't believe it has changed. There is a Hell, a lake of fire and it it is as real as you or I. The Bible doesn't change Jesus said , Yesterday, today and forever he never changes. The bible has been changed to fit the purpose of man. The King James Version is the one I read. Hell may be a myth to some people but I honestly believe there are people there today who if they could come back and tell you about how horrible it is , they would.

It is sad when people go along with any thing just to fit in and not offend any one. I think if you preach the word and people are offended at least they are listening and you have touched a nerve in their heart or they wouldn't respond. Thank you ClassyT for this thread. Thank God for people who will not be swayed by others who mock and laugh at us for our beliefs. This shows me the Bible is real and Satan is real and he knows he has just a short time to woo the ones who will spend eternity with him.

Thank You God for saving a wretch like me. You gave me hope when I was hopeless.

ok...you are in big trouble...i'm beatin ya up for that. lol lol

well, don't blame the barbaric stuff on Christianity. Blame it on stupid, evil people who kill in the name of Christ or Christianity. There is NOTHING in what Christ taught that was barbaric. Quite the opposite....Love your neighbor as yourself. don't get more peaceful than that.

People pervert things for their OWN agendas....been happening for centuries.


You are absolutely right. So would you say that part is open for interpretation? I mean after all who is the real sinner? Are all those 'barbaric s' going to Hell for killing for something they so whole heart-idly believed in? They really believed if they didn't kill in his name they were the sinners who wouold go to Hell.

Or are we going to pay the penance for not standing up for the man who saved our souls?


Hheath, ever hear that saying You Heaven is my Hell? That's something I really believe, I mean to spend eternity in someone Else's vision of heaven doesn't sound like much fun. I think Heaven is what you make it.

Heaven to me is a being at peace.

There is a Hell, a lake of fire and it it is as real as you or I. I mention it earlier, it's erroneous to say that hell is as real as you or I since hell is a belief and you and I are a fact that can be proven. Hell is a belief concept, in fact who says it is a lake of fire? It can be... if that is your belief.

I mention it earlier, it's erroneous to say that hell is as real as you or I since hell is a belief and you and I are a fact that can be proven. Hell is a belief concept, in fact who says it is a lake of fire? It can be...if that is your belief.



I know what the Bible says and it has been around longer than any of us.
I don't think you or anyone would disagree with that. You have your beliefs and I have mine. You can't change mine and I can't change yours, so lets just agree to disagree. Nice to talk with you again.:)

Bella,

Anyone that murders in the name of Christ I would NOT own as a Christian. But only God knows the heart.

People have killed and slaughtered millions in the name of "religion". Not only christians and it is not right.

It is like the radical so called Christian bombing an abortion clinic. HELLLLLO! I'm not for abortion but for heaven sakes, the moron that bombed the clincs and kills the doctors and nurses were not acting on the behalf of the Lord Jesus... I promise you.

Believe it or not, Christianity isn't or shouldn't be a religion it is a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. If you have a real relationship with him, He will NEVER tell to go outside of what the Bible says.

I agree with what you said about heaven and peace.

Hold that thought... my son.just walked in the door starved. UGH. Save yourself... don't have bratty boys that you spoil rottten. :D

I know what the Bible says and it has been around longer than any of us.Man has been around on earth much longer than 2000 years. :)

Are you saying that what I am saying is wrong Kitkat?

The bible I read is the Kings James version as well, but there are depending on what denomination you come from other books are excepted as well.

Anyway, Thank you NeedKarma for some well needed balance.

I am not going to sit here and judge people or say that certain people should be or are in hell. I am not God, and it is not up to me.

Well looks like does not matter what I say here. It will get twisted into something that is not.

I agree.. people have been killing for the sake of religion all through History. There are people who blow themselves up thinking their reward is waiting for them.

The Bible says. "the just suffer will suffer with the unjust". I see it happening everyday . I don't understand why innocent children are murdered and why there is war.

My one hope is this... when we get to heaven god will explain it all and he will wipe away our tears.

Man has been around on earth much longer than 2000 years. :)

I suspect kitkat meant "us" as in those of us having this discussion, but your point is well taken.

Thanks for the insight Classy. Something I have been thinking about since you started this thread.

Man has been around on earth much longer than 2000 years. :)

Yes I agree man has been around longer than 2000 years. Remember Adam and Eve and Moses and Daniel and David. They were here long before Jesus Christ was born. As I said I won't argue... I just don't need to do that anymore. I hope you know I wish you nothing but blessings, regardless to what you may think.

Ok guys if we are getting offended, than we need to take a step back and breath. This is an excellent thread and I would hate to see it turn the wrong way.

This is why I say religion is open for interpretation. People interpret things in their own way, they always will. Yes there are things written in back and white, but there is always a grey area.

Thanks for the insight Classy. Something I have been thinking about since you started this thread.

What? Not having bratty boys that you spoil rotten or my thoughts on radical religion? :D

You are welcome... :)

A little bit of column A, a little bit of B ;)

Ok guys if we are getting offended, I don't we are. To quote kitkat:

"It is sad when people go along with any thing just to fit in and not offend any one. I think if you preach the word and people are offended at least they are listening and you have touched a nerve in their heart or they wouldn't respond."

Ok, I'll take that, just wanted us to stay on track. I didn't want it to turn the other way.

Ok guys if we are getting offended, than we need to take a step back and breath. This is an excellent thread and I would hate to see it turn the wrong way.

For once, we agree ;) I'm definitely not offended; it takes a LOT to accomplish that, usually involving personal insults toward a member of my family or something. About the only thing that really sets me off any more is deliberate lying, and I haven't seen any of that here. So everything's cool on this end, for what that's worth.

Lake of fire? For my husband, hell is waiting in line at a store and there are never-ending price checks and credit card problems with the customers ahead of him, hell is a never-ending crowded birthday party where he has to socialize with everyone there, hell is eating leftovers every night for supper, hell is going to a parade every day and watching fireworks every evening (he hates both).

If there is a hell, I believe it will be tailor-made for each individual.

I don't we are. To quote kitkat:

"It is sad when people go along with any thing just to fit in and not offend any one. I think if you preach the word and people are offended at least they are listening and you have touched a nerve in their heart or they wouldn't respond."

NK.. I'm not going to argue OK? I was speaking generally and if it offended you then I suppose I have made my point. I won't argue this with you. I will however unsubcribe from this thread. It isn't because of you I will do that. I have other post to respond too. I have not or will I ever apologize for being a Christian and for my beliefs. Thank you Classy T and it's like Bella said we don't a bunch of people messing up this thread. Thanks and Blessings to all of you. Blessings to you NeedKarma.

I did not read any of the other answers but here goes.

Who do I think will go to hell? Can not say, it is not my place or my judgment to make.

Now the definitions of hell has different meanings for different people.

Even the word hell itself the meaning has changed over many years.

The original prayer that I used to pray in church. The part that said Jesus died, descended into the dead and rose in three days. That is today's version. Years ago it was worded Jesus descended into hell and rose in three days. Hell could be merely meaning death, or the grave...

As well. Hell another definition is that people create there own hell and there own separation from God. After there death. they recreate and relive their worst nightmare.

There is books that are included in the Catholic version of the bible that are not excepted by all denominations which talk about the seven days after death for the righteous and seven days of the evil and what they see and the steps they take. It is pretty cool to read and makes sense.

Hmmmm? Interesting Joe. VERY interesting.

However, 13% of what Jesus had to say concerning hell doesn't say we get a second chance. Believe you me, I would LOVE that. I have dear people in my life who are atheist.

But consider these verses: Revelation 22:11 Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

and then of course this one which is horrible : Rev. 21: 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

What do you make of that. It sounds to ME... in whatever state we die.. we stay in that state. Or do you think I have that wrong... I don't know? Any thoughts?

... if it offended you then I suppose I have made my point. I wasn't offended, I was simply pointing out the dangers of stating beliefs such as hell as being in the same league of facts as the existence of the sun and the moon, it tends to weaken the statement a lot. No one is arguing. Feel free to return anytime. :)

and then of course this one which is horrible : Rev. 21: 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."That is interesting. It is imagery or it is literal? Is there an actual fiery lake of sulphur somewhere?

What's considered to be sexually immoral?

What's considered to be sexually immoral?
I'm a Christian. My mom's a Christian. My son's a Christian. If you asked each of us, you'd get three different answers.

WG, thanks for solidifying my theory about "open for interpretation".

WG, thanks for solidifying my theory about "open for interpretation".
Heck, even Dave and classyT would have differing opinions!

Right, I agree, have you read back?

Right, I agree, have you read back?
I've been reading the thread since it started (along with 40,000 other threads). What should I be aware of?

Heck, even Dave and classyT would have differing opinions!

True WG... but in Dave's defense... it's because he isn't as smart as me. AND... we cannot condemn a person for being slow witted.:p

Bella, I believe the bible concerning the sexually immoral would be anyone who was living in a sexual sin according to the Bible AND hadn't had their sin washed away by the Lord Jesus. Because truly, I have done most of the sins listed in that verse. And lets be real? WHO among any of us hasn't lied? ( well maybe George Washington but... you know what I mean.) :D Incidentally what I am MOST concerned with in that verse is the second person mention... just a unbeliever.. YIKES. :eek:

NK.. I believe it is a real place. There is more descriptions other than revelation, if like WG and Dave, you don't take that book literal. (revelation I mean)

(Dave chime in here anytime)

True WG... but in Dave's defense... it's because he isn't as smart as me. AND... we cannot condemn a person for being slow witted.
Be careful, classyT, be very careful.


Bella, I believe the bible concerning the sexually immoral would be anyone who was living in a sexual sin according to the Bible
Present tense? Past tense? And what's a sexual sin?

if like WG and Dave you don't take that book literal
I didn't say it isn't literal. I said it's over and done with; the prophecies therein have been fulfilled.

I've been reading the thread since it started (along with 40,000 other threads). What should I be aware of?

Lol, just the discussion on whether religion can be interpreted.

lol, just the discussion on whether religion can be interpreted.
After attending Bible classes for years and years, I've come to the conclusion that no two people interpret the Bible the same way.

For anyone, but using KJV, Acts 1:24-25: "And they prayed, and said , Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, that he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place."

This clause, "that he might go to his own place," is possibly referring, not to Judas, but to Matthias. In other words, what is meant is the "the place of this ministry" that he was to take, since Judas was no longer an apostle and, because of his suicide, had opened a place among the apostles for another disciple.

Dave might be able to shed light on this phrase, figuring out to which person in the verse it belongs/refers and how it should be interpreted.

True WG...but in Dave's defense...it's because he isn't as smart as me. AND...we cannot condemn a person for being slow witted.:p

Bella, I believe the bible concerning the sexually immoral would be anyone who was living in a sexual sin according to the Bible AND hadn't had their sin washed away by the Lord Jesus. Because truly, I have done most of the sins listed in that verse. And lets be real? WHO among any of us hasn't lied? ( well maybe George Washington but....you know what i mean.) :D Incidently what I am MOST concerned with in that verse is the second person mention....just a unbeliever.. YIKES. :eek:

NK..i believe it is a real place. There is more descriptions other than revelation, if like WG and Dave, you don't take that book literal. (revelation i mean)

(Dave chime in here anytime)

Uuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhh... what was the question? http://www.nwdiveclub.com/images/smilies/eusa_doh.gif http://www.nwdiveclub.com/images/smilies/dontknow.gif You know how it is with us slow-witted guys...

Dave,

Only kidding and anyone that has taken a look at your profile has GOT to know that.

WG... interesting questions and thoughts. I will get back to you.

hmmmm? Interesting Joe. VERY interesting.

However, 13% of what Jesus had to say concerning hell doesn't say we get a second chance. Believe you me, I would LOVE that. I have dear people in my life who are atheist.

But consider these verses: Revelation 22:11 Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

and then of course this one which is horrible : Rev. 21: 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

What do you make of that. It sounds to ME...in whatever state we die..we stay in that state. Or do you think I have that wrong...I don't know? any thoughts?

That has nothing to do with what I wrote does it?

NK..i believe it is a real place. There is more descriptions other than revelation, if like WG and Dave, you don't take that book literal. (revelation i mean) So which parts of the bible are literal and which aren't? So hell is indeed a fiery sulphur lake?

So which parts of the bible are literal and which aren't? So hell is indeed a fiery sulphur lake?
"The mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands" (Isaiah 55:12) is not literal.

Hell is standing in line and never getting to the cashier.

Is heaven a real place?

If we could work out how many angels can dance on the point of a needle then perhaps there is an answer.

Angles dancing on the point of a needle was probably introduced to mock medieval scholasticism. However, I think the answer is probably in the millions if not billions.

If heaven is a real place then hell would be too.

Tut

hmmmm? Interesting Joe. VERY interesting.

However, 13% of what Jesus had to say concerning hell doesn't say we get a second chance. Believe you me, I would LOVE that. I have dear people in my life who are atheist.

But consider these verses: Revelation 22:11 Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

and then of course this one which is horrible : Rev. 21: 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

What do you make of that. It sounds to ME...in whatever state we die..we stay in that state. Or do you think I have that wrong...I don't know? any thoughts?

Yep, I'm burning in hell. Good thing I already reserved my seat on the bus.

yep, i'm burning in hell. good thing i already reserved my seat on the bus.
Can I have Edith and the kids?

Can I have Edith and the kids?

Sure, but I'm hoping to live for at least a bit longer before I have to cash in that ticket.

It's a good thing I'm not going to the christian afterlife. Heaven would never let me in and I'm pretty sure I would just confuse the devil.

it's a good thing i'm not going to the christian afterlife.
You might be surprised where you end up. Plus, I'm going to be in charge of kitty litter scooping in heaven, so I'll be glad for your help.

I will go to limbo, or whatever you want to call it, while my soul faces and processes all that happened in this life. When I'm ready, I'll move on and wait to be reborn.

Rather or not limbo will be a pleasant place, I cna't say. I guess it all depends on how my life turns out.

So which parts of the bible are literal and which aren't? So hell is indeed a fiery sulphur lake?

NK,

I believe it is a fiery sulphur lake that doesn't illuminate light, because in other parts of the bible, Jesus describes it as outer darkness, or completely dark. Can't see your hands in front of your face. Also you can hear weeping according to the Lord.

I think Revelation is the only book that Dave, ( who I consider very smart, regardless of my teasing) doesn't take as being literal. I think there is a lot of symbolism in Revelation but that is for another thread.

Is heaven a real place?

If we could work out how many angels can dance on the point of a needle then perhaps there is an answer.

Angles dancing on the point of a needle was probably introduced to mock medieval scholasticism. However, I think the answer is probably in the millions if not billions.

If heaven is a real place then hell would be too.

Tut
If you believe the Bible.. Hell is a real place, Heaven is a real place. The Bible doesn't discuss dancing angels on heads of pin. No matter how profound that may seem. :confused:

i will go to limbo, or whatever you want to call it, while my soul faces and processes all that happened in this life. when i'm ready, i'll move on and wait to be reborn.
There's no more Limbo. The Catholic Church got rid of it. You're out of luck and are stuck with me and the kitty litter.

If we could work out how many angels can dance on the point of a needle then perhaps there is an answer.

Hello? The answer is: NONE! Everybody knows dancing is a sin!! Duh!

:D:D:D:D:D:D

There's no more Limbo. The Catholic Church got rid of it. You're out of luck and are stuck with me and the kitty litter.

Hmmm... I was unaware the catholic church possessed that level of power. Whodathunk?

An eternity of cleaning out litter boxes sounds an awful lot like hell to me. Shouldn't all the cats in heaven be toilet trained, or something?

hmmm...i was unaware the catholic church possessed that level of power. whodathunk?

an eternity of cleaning out litter boxes sounds an awful lot like hell to me. shouldn't all the cats in heaven be toilet trained, or something?
I'll start praying about that tonight. Good idea. Since the lion will lie down with the lamb, why not toilet-trained cats? Then you and I can spend all our time in the celestial kitchen baking brownies and making cupcakes.

Brownies from heaven sound real good to me! :)

I'll start praying about that tonight. Good idea. Since the lion will lie down with the lamb, why not toilet-trained cats? Then you and I can spend all our time in the celestial kitchen baking brownies and making cupcakes.

I'm more at home with power tools than a stove.

I think I'll leave heaven to you. Maybe I'll be lucky and be reborn as a cat.

i'm more at home with power tools than a stove.

i think i'll leave heaven to you. maybe i'll be lucky and be reborn as a cat.
Jesus was a carpenter. He might need your help.

If you come back as a cat, please be potty trained.

If you believe the Bible..Hell is a real place, Heaven is a real place. The Bible doesn't discuss dancing angels on heads of pin. No matter how profound that may seem. :confused:

Hi Wondergirl

I believe the Bible is accurate when it comes to heaven and hell.

Apparently St. Thomas addressed the problem in the Middle Ages. Even more amazing is the fact that some physicists have actually attempt to work out the number of angles that would fit on the point of a needle.
I am not sure if they allowed room for dancing in their calculations.

Based on this one would assume that heaven and hell are extremely tiny places.


Tut

Hi Wondergirl

I believe the Bible is accurate when it comes to heaven and hell.

Apparently St. Thomas addressed the problem in the Middle Ages. Even more amazing is the fact that some physicists have actually attempt to work out the number of angles that would fit on the point of a needle.
I am not sure if they allowed room for dancing in their calculations.

Based on this one would assume that heaven and hell are extremely tiny places.


Tut

And what about the angels that visited people in the bible? Either they're hugely oversized giants or they can shrink a LOT!

the number of angles that would fit on the point of a needle
Please be careful when spelling. They are angels, not angles. Otherwise, we end up doing geometry, not theology.

And I think it was the head of a pin, not the point of a needle -- big difference and the wrong end of a sewing tool (I have been hemming my dresses and skirts since I was 7, and won prizes for my 4-H Club sewing at the county fair).

Now, what were you saying?

***ADDED*** My apologies, dear Tut. According to straightdope.com, "According to unimpeachable sources, it's not how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, it's how many can do it on the point of a needle — which, of course, makes more sense. Second, the earliest citation I can find is from a book by Ralph Cudworth in the 17th century, which is suspiciously late in the day."

The entire article about what and why is found by clicking this link --

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1008/did-medieval-scholars-argue-over-how-many-angels-could-dance-on-the-head-of-a-pin

and what about the angels that visited people in the bible? either they're hugely oversized giants or they can shrink a LOT!

Hi Heath,

What I am saying is of course highly speculative at best. However, I would SPECULATE and say that Michael Talbot in the "Holographic Universe" comes up with an answer. Our problem is that we live in a world of four dimensions. Talbot say that the Andromeda Galaxy exists so many light years from earth. It also exists in the thumb nail of our right hand.

Tut

Hi Heath,

What I am saying is of course highly speculative at best. However, I would SPECULATE and say that Michael Talbot in the "Holographic Universe" comes up with an answer. Our problem is that we live in a world of four dimensions. Talbot say that the Andromeda Galaxy exists so many light years from earth. It also exists in the thumb nail of our right hand.

Tut

So distance becomes such a great factor that size ceases to matter? Or, something that exists outside the confines of time (such as a divine being) also exists outside the confines of physical matter and, therefore, size?

so distance becomes such a great factor that size ceases to matter? or, something that exists outside the confines of time (such as a divine being) also exists outside the confines of physical matter and, therefore, size?

Hi again Heath,

Good point.

From my understanding of Talbot he makes no reference to any divine being. He attempts to explain his ideas in terms of physical science. He draws on on a number of prominent physicists from the past . He also draws on quantum mechanics. As far as I can remember there is no supernatural explanation that is offered by Talbot.

Regards

Tut

I think I'll have to try to find his book. It sounds interesting. I love theoretical/philosophical discussions.

i think i'll have to try to find his book. it sounds interesting. i love theoretical/philosophical discussions.


Heath

It is one of the best books I have ever read. I have read a few in my life.

Regards

Tut

hmmm...i was unaware the catholic church possessed that level of power. whodathunk?



Hheath, (WG too)
When I said "biblical truths" in my agree to YOU hheath... I do NOT agree we are EVER in limbo. My point was you can't add and subtract stuff from the Bible and the Catholic Church doesn't really have that power. If scripture teaches we can be in limbo... or pergatory, or any of that, then that is what it teaches. NO institution, denomination has the right to change that. The bible just doesn't teach it. Did that make any sense at all?. if not.. nevermind.

Hheath, (WG too)
When I said "biblical truths" in my agree to YOU hheath ...i do NOT agree we are EVER in limbo. My point was you can't add and subtract stuff from the Bible and the Catholic Church doesn't really have that power. If scripture teaches we can be in limbo ....or pergatory, or any of that, then that is what it teaches. NO institution, denomination has the right to change that. The bible just doesn't teach it. Did that make any sense at all?.....if not..nevermind.

It made perfect sense. The catholic church has been trying to control things for centuries. Hell, the finally admitted the earth was round in the 1960's, like their admission finally made it official.

I think they spent far too much time making proclamations. Religion shouldn't have anything to do with grand speeches and official announcements.

Hello? The answer is: NONE! Everybody knows dancing is a sin!!!!!! Duh!

:D:D:D

Fo sho... and watching me try to do the "stinky leg" or" stanky lag" (as my son pronounces it) is proof if it ISN'T a sin... I sure oughtta be. :D


My son tried to teach me... not only does HE look utterly ridiculous, I look WORSE. GOT to be a sin...

Lake of fire?

If there is a hell, I believe it will be tailor-made for each individual.

Based on..

Umm Classy Don't you remember that Simpsons when he had to continuously eat doughnuts and it starts as something he likes but soon realizes it's not so fun??


:D

Second Esdras 7. 75 - 101

State of the Dead before Judgment.

I answered and said, "If I found favor in your sight, o lord, Show this also to your servant: whether after death, as soon as one of us yields up the soul, we shall be kept in rest until those times come when you will renew the creation, or whether we shall be tormented at once?

He answered me and said, "I will show you that also, but do not include yourself with those who have shown scorn, or number yourself among those who are tormented. For you have a treasure of works stored up with the Most High, but it will not be shown to you until the last times. Now concerning death, the teaching is: When the decisive decree has gone out from the Most High that a person shall die, as the spirit leaves the body to return again to him who gave it, first of all it adores the glory of the Most High. If it is one of those who have shown scorn and have not kept the way of the Most High, Who have despised his law and hated those who fear God - such spirits shall not enter into habitations, but shall immediately wander about in torments, always grieving and sad, in seven ways.

The first way, because they have scorned the law of the Most High. The second way, because they cannot now make a good repentance so that they may live. The third way, they shall see the reward laid up for those who have trusted the covenants of the Most High. The fourth way, they shall consider the torment laid up for themselves in the last days. The firth way, they shall see how the habitations the others of the others are guarded by angels in profound quiet. The sixth way, they shall see how some of them will cross over into torments. The seventh way, which is worse then all the ways that have been mentioned, because they shall utterly waste away in confusion and be consumed with shame, and shall wither with fear at seeing the glory of the most High in whose presence they sinned while they were alive, and in whose presence they are to be judged in the last times.

Now this is the order of those who have kept the ways of the Most High, when they shall be separated from their mortal body. During the time that they lived in it, they laboriously served the Most High, and withstood danger every hour so that they might keep the law of the lawgiver perfectly. Therefore this is the teaching concerning them. First of all, they shall see with great joy the glory of him who receives them, for they shall have rest in seven orders. The first order, because they have striven with great effort to over come the evil thought that was formed with them, so that it might not lead them astray from life into death. The second order, because they see the perplexity in which the souls of the ungodly wander and the punishment that was them. The third order they see the witness that he who formed them bears concerning them, that through out their life they kept the law with which they were entrusted. The fourth order, they understood the rest that they now enjoy, being gathered into their chambers and guarded by angels in profound quiet, and the glory waiting for them in the last days. The fifth order, they rejoice that they have now escaped what's corruptible and shall inherit what is to come and besides they see the straits and toil from which they have been delivered, and the spacious liberty that they are to receive and enjoy in immortality. The sixth order, when it is shown them how their face is to shine like the sun, and how they are to be made like the light of the stars, being incorruptible from then on. The seventh order, which is greater then all that have been mentioned, because they shall rejoice with boldness, and shall be confident without confusion and shall be glad without fear, for they press forward to see the face of him whom they served in life and from whom they are to receive their reward when glorified.

This is the order of the souls of the righteous, as henceforth is announced; and the previously mentioned are the ways of the torment that those who would not give heed shall suffer hereafter.

Then I answered and said, "Will time therefore be given to the souls, after they have been separated from the bodies, to see what you have described to me?'

He said to me, 'They shall have freedom for seven days, so that during these seven days they may see the things of which you have been told, and afterward they shall be gathered in their habitations.'

Joe,
Going to be gone for a few days so I have to read this and get back to you.

Bella,

What? Are you suggesting me aggravating WG is somehow becoming... not fun? Sorry. :( But she insists I clarify myself... packback is a...





Drag. :D

Please be careful when spelling. They are angels, not angles. Otherwise, we end up doing geometry, not theology.


The entire article about what and why is found by clicking this link --

The Straight Dope: Did medieval scholars argue over how many angels could dance on the head of a pin? (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1008/did-medieval-scholars-argue-over-how-many-angels-could-dance-on-the-head-of-a-pin)

Hi Wondergirl

Thanks for pointing out the error. Perhaps I would be better off trying to do geometry. I read the article you suggested above.

It does say that one of the problems St. Thomas addresses is the possibility that two angles can occupy the same space. Apparently the answer he came up with is in line with modern physics. According to the Pauli exclusion principle the probability of two electrons occupying the same space is zero.

Probably a bit of useless trivia.

Regards

Tut

It does say that one of the problems St. Thomas addresses is the possibility that two angles can occupy the same space.
Angles?

Joe,
gonna be gone for a few days so i have to read this and get back to you.

Bella,

what? are you suggesting me aggravating WG is somehow becoming...not fun? Sorry. :( But she insists I clarify myself...packback is a .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ......








Drag. :D


LOL God no! I was saying that Hell is specific to the individual... taylor made. For WG Hell is waiting in line and never getting to the cashier for Hheath it's kitty litter and un litter trained cats, you know what I mean?

LOL God no! I was saying that Hell is specific to the individual...taylor made. For WG Hell is waiting in line and never getting to the cashier for Hheath it's kitty litter and un litter trained cats, you know what I mean??

For me it could be an eternity of polka music...

For WG Hell is waiting in line and never getting to the cashier
For WG, HEAVEN is waiting in line and chatting with all the others waiting there too. It's my HUSBAND who thinks Hell is waiting in line.

In other words, my Heaven is his Hell.

angles?


Hi Wondergirl

There is nothing wrong with me. I know that three angels always add up to 180 degs.

Regards

Tut

For me it could be an eternity of polka music...


Uggg. Polka.

Hi Wondergirl

There is nothing wrong with me. I know that three angels always add up to 180 degs.

Regards

Tut
*WG weeps copious tears*

I don't believe in hell if you mean some fiery place of eternal torment. It's a bogeyman story to frighten children and others to toe the line, and quite effective, I might add.

Athos,

Interesting, thoughts. Why do you suppose Jesus spoke of it so often? Think he enjoyed bogeyman stories?

Waiting for a response Classy... No one seemed to want to respond to what I wrote... I almost was ready to give up on the whole thread.

Joe,

Just got back to town... I WILL respond. Didn't forget about you! :)

Joe,

Just got back to town....I WILL respond. didn't forget about ya! :)

Happy anniversary, by the way!

Jesushelper, you probably already know that 2 Ezdras isn't part of the Bible that ClassyT uses...

If there is only one true religion, why is there so many versions of the bible?

If there is only one true religion, why is there so many versions of the bible?

And so many other holy books?

If there is only one true religion, why is there so many versions of the bible?

and so many other holy books?
And no one believes exactly the same thing?

Yea!

If there is only one true religion, why is there so many versions of the bible?

What do you mean by "versions"? Do you mean translations?

Who do you think will go to hell, or do you even believe in hell?

The bible teaches that hell is the grave in which man goes when he dies.
Acts 2:25-27 speaks of Jesus being in hell for three days. This shows it is not a fiery place of torment for the wicked. Jesus is not wicked, yet he was there for three days.

The Encyclopedia Americana (1942), Vol. XIV, p. 81.
State that due to early translators of the Bible a lot of confusion & misunderstanding by how they have translated the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The words Sheol and hades when translated in their native tongue mean grave,

(Luke 17:29) 29 But on the day that Lot came out of Sod′om it rained fire and sulphur from heaven and destroyed them all."
Jesus says that those of Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them who were wicked, they were “destroyed” They became none existent not tomented in a fiery place. That means they have no hope of living ever again. They received eternal death.


Eternal torment of the wicked is not compatible with God’s personality.
(Jeremiah 7: 31 And they have built the high places of To′pheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hin′nom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.’

The Hellfire doctorine is an ancient Babylonian and Assyrian belief carried down through generations by false teachings of many reliogions to control their members.

Have a nice day,

Hope12

The bible teaches that hell is the grave in which man goes when he dies.
Are you coming at this from a Jewish or a Witness point of view?

I'm not really up on all this stuff but I'm bored so thought I'd have a look around and found you guys here , so doesn't every Religion say if you aren't a believer your going to hell??

If so , we're all going :eek:

Not me, I'm too cute.

I'm not really up on all this stuff but I'm bored so thought I'd have a look around and found you guys here , so doesn't every Religion say if you aren't a believer your going to hell ???
Actually, no. Some say the grave is the last stop for everyone. Some say there is no hell at all.

Not me, I'm too cute.
You mean to say looks count? M definitely has a chance then!

Some say we are living in Hell, and when we die, we will be redeemed if we were good enough.

Actually, no. Some say the grave is the last stop for everyone. Some say there is no hell at all.

Told you I wasn't up on all this stuff :o


Ok I'm going back to saving the World :cool:

You mean to say looks count? M definitely has a chance then!

If looks count, I'm in big trouble! :eek:

If looks count, I'm in big trouble! :eek:
Another criterion is smarts. And one can get extra points for having an even-tempered, all-suffering spouse. Certainly you fit one of those.

Actually, no. Some say the grave is the last stop for everyone. Some say there is no hell at all.

And some don't condemn other religions at all.

Another criterion is smarts. And one can get extra points for having an even-tempered, all-suffering spouse. Certainly you fit one of those.

Well, darn it. Looks. Smarts. Spouse. Religion. No matter how you look at it, I'm going to hell. Better start packing shorts and tank tops.

well, darn it. looks. smarts. spouse. religion. no matter how you look at it, i'm going to hell. better start packing shorts and tank tops.
Cat rescue is another criterion.

Cat rescue is another criterion.

For getting to heaven or hell??

For getting to heaven or hell?????
Of course, for getting to heaven. Hheath has rescued seven cats (a pregnant mom cat who presented her with six kittens). No greater love... (Would you like to adopt a kitten or two, Dave? Their photos are on the Cats board under an Edith thread.)

Comments on this post
Hope12 disagrees : The grave is not the last stop! There will be a ressurection, those who do good, to everlasting life here on earth. Ps 37: 10 -11. Those weho did bad, everlasating death.
Aurora_Bell agrees : lol balancer, Hheath wasn't even the one who said it!!

wow, I think that's the least deserved reddie I've ever gotten. Never been yelled at for something I never said, before. At least not on here.

thanks for the balancer, bella. I think this is going to be my favorite reddie ever ^_^

The grave is not the last stop!
Hope, no one in this thread said that. I went back to read all the responses.

NP, it was a well deserved balancer! ;)

Of course, for getting to heaven. Hheath has rescued seven cats (a pregnant mom cat who presented her with six kittens). No greater love.... (Would you like to adopt a kitten or two, Dave? Their photos are on the Cats board under an Edith thread.)

Too many cats already, and my daughter the veterinary tech student is bringing 4 more home for the night. And I'm partial to dogs, thank you very much ;)

I was in church yesterday and the pastor preached on hell. He stated that 13% of what Jesus Christ is recorded as saying in the Gospels were concerning hell.

That sounds like a substantial amount.


He also thinks that it is politically incorrect to talk about it in our culture.

Perhaps. I am not PC.


Many preachers don't want to address the topic because people feel offended or don't like to hear about something so hopeless.

I've never seen a survey on the matter.


So, what do you think?

I think it is an important topic:
Ezekiel 3:20-22 (King James Version)

20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

22And the hand of the LORD was there upon me; and he said unto me, Arise, go forth into the plain, and I will there talk with thee.


Do you think it is a real place?

I think it is a real state of being.


Do you think some people are headed there when they die?

Yes.

Matthew 7: (King James Version)

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Do you have to be a BAD person to wind up there?

Yes. You have to reject God. And that is bad.



Who do you think will go to hell?

Those who reject God and refuse to do His Will:
Matt 7
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I think it is an important topic:
Ezekiel 3:20-22 (King James Version)

20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Maybe sounds like a Christian can lose his salvation.

I did not read any of the other answers but here goes.

Who do I think will go to hell? Can not say, it is not my place or my judgment to make.

Now the definitions of hell has different meanings for different people.

Even the word hell itself the meaning has changed over many years.

The original prayer that I used to pray in church. The part that said Jesus died, descended into the dead and rose in three days. That is today's version. Years ago it was worded Jesus descended into hell and rose in three days. Hell could be merely meaning death, or the grave...

As well. Hell another definition is that people create there own hell and there own separation from God. After there death. they recreate and relive their worst nightmare.

There is books that are included in the Catholic version of the bible that are not excepted by all denominations which talk about the seven days after death for the righteous and seven days of the evil and what they see and the steps they take. It is pretty cool to read and makes sense.

Joe,

See? Told you I'd get back to you. :)

I believe everything in the bible. I don't WANT hell to be a real place and I REALLY don't want anyone I know or don't know to go there. But it isn't about what I want...

Jesus made it pretty clear it is a literal place. It isn't a state of mind, it isn't just for a few days or until someone comes to their senses and repents. It isn't the judgement of God that makes a man repent anyway... if you read in revelation it states that men will be covered in boils, are stung with something that looks like a locust and the pain lasts months. They are going to beg to die and NOT be able to... but it states instead of repenting they blasphemed God.

I, like you, will not stand in judgement of anyone as far as saying if they are going to hell. Having said THAT, Jesus Christ is either exactly who he said he was or he was a liar, there just is no in between. He said HE was the ONLY way to the Father... not A way. He spoke of hell, he spoke of the torment, weeping, outer darkness,misery.. ect. And he never said anyone EVER got a second chance after they died. In fact, he taught the opposite of that thought. Take a look at the story of the rich man and the beggar that the Lord himself told.

So while it may make sense to reason and rationalize that hell couldn't possilbly be for all eternity... that is what the Bible says and I believe it. I don't LIKE it. But I believe it.

Incidentally, if I wasn't a Christian, I wouldn't even believe that Jesus was a good man or a prophet. I wouldn't. He made some pretty bold claims about himself, he told some radical stories, he made a lot of people uncomfortable. The Lord Jesus Christ himself is the one who stated he was THE way and therefore he wasn't very "tolerant" of other faiths either. So, If I didn't believe he IS God, HE IS the way, I'd want nothing to do with him or his teachings.

I've heard it said Jesus was either a liar, lunitic, or Lord. As for ME, HE is LORD... and I believe what he taught concerning hell. It is a real place of eternal torment and he warned us about it. He also provided a way OUT.

Now can you reply to me about the descriptions of hell and heaven according to Esdras visions??

Which I think line up completely to what the bible has taught all along.

It is part of my bible. Please check it out.

Joe,

Geesh. Did I mess up again? I THOUGHT you posted more.But I didn't find it. I will go back and read it. I have to go to a baseball gamej( my son is pitching) so I will check it out tomorrow.

The Hellfire doctorine is an ancient Babylonian and Assyrian belief carried down through generations by false teachings of many reliogions to control their members.


Fire is only one of the descriptions; we also see darkness, chains, weeping, I forget what else at the moment. As so often happens in the Bible, we're trying to describe the indescribable. The single most important factor about hell is the absence of God. The various descriptions also suggest that the person there will be totally alone, so Mark Twain's comment that he would prefer "heaven for climate, hell for company" is a really bad idea.

Joe,

Geesh. Did I mess up again? I THOUGHT you posted more.But I didn't find it. I will go back and read it. I have to go to a baseball gamej( my son is pitching) so i will check it out tomorrow.

Let me see if this works:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christianity/who-do-you-think-will-go-hell-do-you-even-believe-hell-471304-2.html#post2359408

Dave

Are you trying to pinpoint a particular post??

If so just click on the Post number , then copy and paste the URL.

Dave

Are you trying to pinpoint a particular post???

If so just click on the Post number , then copy and paste the URL.

That's what I did, and from what I can see it worked. I figured since I had a little extra time I'd do some leg work for ClassyT.

That's what I did, and from what I can see it worked. I figured since I had a little extra time I'd do some leg work for ClassyT.

No problem , that link takes me to the TOP of page 2. Wasn't sure if you wanted a particular post on that page.

All good , carry on :)

Okay I will do the work.

Here It is again:



Second Esdras 7. 75 - 101

State of the Dead before Judgment.

I answered and said, "If I found favor in your sight, o lord, Show this also to your servant: whether after death, as soon as one of us yields up the soul, we shall be kept in rest until those times come when you will renew the creation, or whether we shall be tormented at once?

He answered me and said, "I will show you that also, but do not include yourself with those who have shown scorn, or number yourself among those who are tormented. For you have a treasure of works stored up with the Most High, but it will not be shown to you until the last times. Now concerning death, the teaching is: When the decisive decree has gone out from the Most High that a person shall die, as the spirit leaves the body to return again to him who gave it, first of all it adores the glory of the Most High. If it is one of those who have shown scorn and have not kept the way of the Most High, Who have despised his law and hated those who fear God - such spirits shall not enter into habitations, but shall immediately wander about in torments, always grieving and sad, in seven ways.

The first way, because they have scorned the law of the Most High. The second way, because they cannot now make a good repentance so that they may live. The third way, they shall see the reward laid up for those who have trusted the covenants of the Most High. The fourth way, they shall consider the torment laid up for themselves in the last days. The firth way, they shall see how the habitations the others of the others are guarded by angels in profound quiet. The sixth way, they shall see how some of them will cross over into torments. The seventh way, which is worse then all the ways that have been mentioned, because they shall utterly waste away in confusion and be consumed with shame, and shall wither with fear at seeing the glory of the most High in whose presence they sinned while they were alive, and in whose presence they are to be judged in the last times.

Now this is the order of those who have kept the ways of the Most High, when they shall be separated from their mortal body. During the time that they lived in it, they laboriously served the Most High, and withstood danger every hour so that they might keep the law of the lawgiver perfectly. Therefore this is the teaching concerning them. First of all, they shall see with great joy the glory of him who receives them, for they shall have rest in seven orders. The first order, because they have striven with great effort to over come the evil thought that was formed with them, so that it might not lead them astray from life into death. The second order, because they see the perplexity in which the souls of the ungodly wander and the punishment that was them. The third order they see the witness that he who formed them bears concerning them, that through out their life they kept the law with which they were entrusted. The fourth order, they understood the rest that they now enjoy, being gathered into their chambers and guarded by angels in profound quiet, and the glory waiting for them in the last days. The fifth order, they rejoice that they have now escaped whats corruptible and shall inherit what is to come and besides they see the straits and toil from which they have been delivered, and the spacious liberty that they are to receive and enjoy in immortality. The sixth order, when it is shown them how thier face is to shine like the sun, and how they are to be made like the light of the stars, being incorruptible from then on. The seventh order, which is greater then all that have been mentioned, because they shall rejoice with boldness, and shall be confident without confusion and shall be glad without fear, for they press forward to see the face of him whom they served in life and from whom they are to receive their reward when glorified.

This is the order of the souls of the righteous, as henceforth is announced; and the previously mentioned are the ways of the torment that those who would not give heed shall suffer hereafter.

Then I answered and said, "Will time therefore be given to the souls, after they have been separated from the bodies, to see what you have described to me?'

He said to me, 'They shall have freedom for seven days, so that during these seven days they may see the things of which you have been told, and afterward they shall be gathered in their habitations.'

No problem , that link takes me to the TOP of page 2. Wasn't sure if you wanted a particular post on that page.

All good , carry on :)

Curiouser and curiouser, because it took me to the specific post I was trying to link to. As a quasi-French hippie might say, je ne diggue pas.

Here It is again:

That is the frist time I have read that. You say this is an actual book in your bible? Is your bible a Catholic bible? Who is the Lord suppose to be talking to?

I don't see how it is consistent with what the Lord Jesus taught and what revelation has to say concerning hell.

Are you saying you believe from this book that people get a second chance after 7 days. I'm slow Joe... help me out.

The NT.. says to be absent from the Bible is to be present with the Lord. If you are a Christian. I don't understand this 7 day thing... at all.

I think you need to re read it.

Joe,

Please help explain to me what this part means:

Then I answered and said, "Will time therefore be given to the souls, after they have been separated from the bodies, to see what you have described to me?'

He said to me, 'They shall have freedom for seven days, so that during these seven days they may see the things of which you have been told, and afterward they shall be gathered in their habitations.'

Joe... I'm not really that familiar with the Catholic Bible... Please explain that post to me so I can understand what it means... I mean explain it from your perspective if you would... Thanks Joe... Kit

Who said anything about a Catholic bible??

When I have more time, I will come back.

Who said anything about a Catholic bible???

When I have more time, I will come back.

Thanks Joe... I thought it was from the Catholic Bible.. Sorry... :)

Thanks Joe....I thought it was from the Catholic Bible..Sorry.....:)
I Esdras is Ezra plus four additional chapters. 2 Esdras is in the (according to Protestants) Apocrypha. Neither is in the canon of 66 books. Check Wikipedia for the history and description of each.

I Esdras is Ezra plus four additional chapters. 2 Esdras is in the (according to Protestants) Apocrypha. Neither is in the canon of 66 books. Check Wikipedia for the history and description of each.

Thanks WG... It's interesting to know these things.:)

2 Esdras - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Esdras)

2 Esdras - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Esdras)
Yup, like I had said --

Check Wikipedia for the history and description of each.

"Usage

The book is considered one of the gems of Jewish apocalyptic literature. While it was not received into European Christian canons, the Jewish Apocalypse of Ezra, i.e. 2 Esdras 3-14, is regarded as Scripture in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, and it was also widely cited by early Fathers of the Church, particularly Ambrose of Milan."

Thanks WG and Joe...

I will also add a lot more to information later, as when I have time. There is lots of info to give.

Anyway Chow for now. Hope you guys research and read yourself and take something from it anyway.

I will also add a lot more to information later, as when I have time. There is lots of info to give.

Anyway Chow for now. Hope you guys research and read yourself and take something from it anyway.




Thanks Joe... :)