Hi folks, just checking about Judas Iscariot. I was told by one of my friends that Jesus told Judas to betray HIM. Questions arose from that line, are -

1) Was Jesus aware of Judas' betrayal part when he was picking HIS disciples? OR

2) Did Satan enter Judas later?

I am not sure if I am able to make sense of these questions. :o

Before choosing his 12 apostles, Jesus “continued the whole night in prayer to God.” (Luke 6:12, 13) The responsible positions of apostleship logically were not to be entrusted to wicked men or to those weak in faith. Hence, the selection of Judas as one of the 12 would indicate that both God and Jesus viewed him favorably at that time. Furthermore, he was entrusted with caring for the common finances of Jesus and the 12. That points to his dependability at the time, especially since Matthew had experience with money and figures but did not receive this assignment.—Matt. 10:3; John 12:6.

Truind,

Lets go straght to the Bible for the answer , (good question btw)

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
( it appears Jesus knows the heart of Judas and even when he chose him)

BUT check it out... it wasn't until the last supper that we see Satan enter him.

John 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

I will say this... the Lord Jesus was fully man and fully God. Do I think Jesus knew everything when he picked Judas? Yes, I do. AND certainly The Father in heaven did.
-----------------------------------NOTE:--------------------------------------------------------------------
People will then get into this long thing concerning Judas and fairness, and God not being a Just God. Or even suggesting the Lord Jesus wasn't aware. (please), I'm willing to let God be God. He is sovereign, He is Holy and He is Love. He knows all things... we don't.

I have said it a million times if there is the ONE thing that man in his natural states HATES it is the sovereignty of God. Man hates it, Man wants to judge it... and Paul makes it clear... we are the clay... HE is the potter. We don't have that right. Ok I'm getting off on a rant. I didn't mean to but this question is going to raise all kinds of discussions.

Hi folks, just checking about Judas Iscariot. I was told by one of my friends that Jesus told Judas to betray HIM. Questions arose from that line, are -

1) Was Jesus aware of Judas' betrayal part when he was picking HIS disciples? OR

2) Did Satan enter in Judas later?

I am not sure if I am able to make sense of these questions. :o

Incidentally check out the verse carefully John 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

He didn't TELL Judas to betray him. He already knew what Judas had going on behind the scene... he was only telling him to get it over with.

Incidently check out the verse carefully John 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

He didn't TELL Judas to betray him. He already knew what Judas had going on behind the scene...he was only telling him to get it over with.

Agreed. The gospel of John in particular gives us several hints that Jesus, and possibly others, knew there was something "off" about Judas. Before Jesus institutes the Last Supper, he tells them "one of you is going to betray me." Judas had already made his deal and collected his money, and Jesus knew it. So he gives the sign of who it is then tells him "get on with it." I can't help wondering what went through Judas' mind at that point!

classyT,
I fully agree with you on this.
Jesus did NOT tell Judas to betray Him, but rather told He told Judas to do as Judas had already planned.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Agreed. The gospel of John in particular gives us several hints that Jesus, and possibly others, knew there was something "off" about Judas. Before Jesus institutes the Last Supper, he tells them "one of you is going to betray me." Judas had already made his deal and collected his money, and Jesus knew it. So he gives the sign of who it is then tells him "get on with it." I can't help wondering what went through Judas' mind at that point!

I KNOW... right? Judas is a really sorry excuse for a man though. I mean he watched the Lord perform miracle after miracle. He watched Jesus deal with all types of people and he watched the Lord get to the root of every issue. He watched the Lord be full of strength without being prideful; he saw him be humble without being soft and passive. He watched and saw with his OWN eyes how the Lord knew all things... and yet he stole from HIM. ( WHAT?) The guy REALLY had no faith, he didn't believe Jesus was the son of God. I think he was truly sorry for betraying Jesus but not for the right reasons. He reminds me of ol King Nebby, who when he had the three Hebrew boys thrown in the fiery furnace, he watched them walk around and even saw a 4th man. The guy even went to far as to say, that the fourth man looked like the son of God. When the three got out of the fire without smelling like smoke, Ol King Nebby got caught up in the moment exclaiming how awesome their God was and on and on. But check it out... it only lasted for a moment or two. He went back to his old ways... because he had no faith... Judas was no different.

It baffles me! And I believe our churches are FULL of these types of people. Scary stuff.

I KNOW ...right? Judas is a really sorry excuse for a man though. I mean he watched the Lord perform miracle after miracle. He watched Jesus deal with all types of people and he watched the Lord get to the root of every issue. He watched the Lord be full of strength without being prideful; he saw him be humble without being soft and passive. He watched and saw with his OWN eyes how the Lord knew all things....and yet he stole from HIM. ( WHAT?) The guy REALLY had no faith, he didn't believe Jesus was the son of God. I think he was truly sorry for betraying Jesus but not for the right reasons. He reminds me of ol King Nebby, who when he had the three Hebrew boys thrown in the firey furnace, he watched them walk around and even saw a 4th man. The guy even went to far as to say, that the fourth man looked like the son of God. When the three got out of the fire without smelling like smoke, Ol King Nebby got caught up in the moment exclaiming how awesome their God was and on and on. But check it out...it only lasted for a moment or two. He went back to his old ways...because he had no faith.....Judas was no different.

It baffles me! and I believe our churches are FULL of these types of people. Scary stuff.

Yes. There are plenty of people who can see something that amazing and never get it. I've known a few.

Still, every time I read that story about Jesus handing Judas the sop and saying "Go get it over with," I can't help trying to look into Judas' head for a second. It leaves me wondering what the Aramaic words are for "Oh @#$%. He knows!" http://i.imdb.com/Photos/CMSIcons/emoticons/basic2/laugh.gif

Yes. There are plenty of people who can see something that amazing and never get it. I've known a few.

Still, every time I read that story about Jesus handing Judas the sop and saying "Go get it over with," I can't help trying to look into Judas' head for a second. It leaves me wondering what the Aramaic words are for "Oh @#$%. He knows!" http://i.imdb.com/Photos/CMSIcons/emoticons/basic2/laugh.gif

LOL LOL LOL!

You know I heard some preacher say once, he believed ( couldn't prove it but this was his theory) that Judas was sick of waiting on Jesus to take his rightful place as the King of the Jews. He felt Judas did it because he was trying to get the Lord to move quicker and he never thought the Lord would really allow himself to be cruicified. Judas figured he'd be a big wig in the Kingdom that Jesus spoke of and he was sick of Rome ruling over them. Who can really know what Judas was thinking? But I found this preachers thoughts interesting.

classyT,
I agree with that preacher's thinking about Judas.
To me the bible is clear that Judas was a zealot and wanted Jesus to be an earthly king.
Judas refused to understand what Jesus had said so Judas figured that he could force Jesus to use His powers and save Himself.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

Interesting thoughts. It really does explain his actions better.

To me the bible is clear that Judas was a zealot and wanted Jesus to be an earthly king.
Judas [snip] figured that he could force Jesus to use His powers and save Himself.
So does that misunderstanding and follow-through on Judas's part damn him? Wasn't he making the prophecy come true, so actually was participating in/cooperating with God's will? Why did Judas commit suicide?

Wondergirl
I really don't know of the actions of Judas damns him.
Only God knows.
Did Judas really commit suicide?
I do not know for sure.
It is said that he hung himself.
It is also said the he fell off a cliff so hard that his bowels came out.
Also Judas had great remorse and gave the money back.
So I thi9nk that know one bust God knows for sure what happened to Judas' soul.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I think the big point is being missed here. Christ knew very well what Judas was going to do, probably long before he ever met the guy. The real item here is that this was foreseen in prophesies long before, and must have been done for the plan of God to be carried out. As a matter of fact, Christ couldn't have been Christ unless this happened this way.

This isn't to say that Christ has to follow some sort of rules, but rather this is the plan God set for Him to follow. These things were meant to be.

So Judas had no choice? He was preordained to betray Jesus?

So Judas had no choice? He was preordained to betray Jesus?

I would say "foreknown" rather than "preordained." He was responsible for his actions, even though God foresaw them ages ago.

InfoJunkie4Life and dwashbur,
I do agree that Judas had a choice to make and God knew what Judas would chose to do long before he did it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

So Judas had no choice? He was preordained to betray Jesus?


Interesting when you think of this in terms of free will and determinism. Wondergirl seems to be saying that Judas was not acting out of free will. In terms of religion God knows the future. But he does not assert his power over individual choices. If he did then we don't have free will.

In light of this Jesus said, 'Judas, go quickly and do what you must do'. Jesus seems to be imposing his will on Judas.

Anyone go any thoughts on this.

Tut

You know what. God and Jesus knew everything. Judas being part of the plan makes sense. Judas being in that position if he never led them to Jesus. Would Jesus have been Crucified? Need to remember Judas played a big part and it only makes sense that it was part of Gods plan.

Without Judas, how would have the events of Jesus unfold... Think about it.

Wondergirl seems to be saying that Judas was not acting out of free will.
Wondergirl wasn't saying that at all. Wondergirl was asking rhetorical questions. If you have followed Wondergirl's posts at all, you know she is a free-will girl.

Without Judas, how would have the events of Jesus unfold... Think about it.
Without Judas, there would have been someone else. God knows the future and allows events to play out as we will them. Had Judas not been the one who was eager for an earthly king, there would have been another scenario. God could have waited until 1975 and sent Jesus then and allowed modern-day events to cause Jesus' death. Maybe God's plan could have made Jesus an illegal immigrant in the U.S. who becomes a cause célèbre and is mistakenly killed. Maybe Jesus could have been picked up in France as a terrorist suspect (ethnic profiling) and ended up being executed without evidence and a fair trial.

Hmmm, maybe I should write a thriller about Jesus living in modern times.

Wondergirl...

I happen to have a different philosophy on things, as I don't exactly believe in free will. However, that is a different discussion for a different time. One thing I would like to point out to your freewill argument:

It could have been someone else, or a different time or way. There are however only a few possibilities. The event must have happened as the OT predicted. There are a certain criteria for which Christ had to follow, besides being perfect. There were a certain number of things, also predicted in the OT, that must have happened to, events that would have been foretold long before.

I'm not saying these predictions controlled the people or anything of the sort, but rather that they saw what is to happen. Much like the same way we wait for the events in Revelation to play out. They will happen as said, but in no way contradicting free will.

Wondergirl...

It could have been someone else, or a different time or way. There are however only a few possibilities. The event must have happened as the OT predicted. [snip] Much like the same way we wait for the events in Revelation to play out.
God being God could have managed it even with the OT "predictions." And of course you knew that I (and many others) believe the events in Revelation have already occurred.

I dislike the term "free will." I prefer to say "responsibility." There are several passages in Paul and other places that basically say God guides events, predestines certain things, etc. etc. etc. but we know that God holds us responsible for our actions. I don't think people have "free will" in the sense that most folks mean it. I believe in both God's sovereignty and human responsibility. How do I reconcile the two? I don't. It's way beyond my comprehension. But I see both taught in the Bible, so I accept that somehow they reconcile in God's mind. Just another example of why he's God and I'm not.

Of course, God is God, He can manage anything anyway He wants. I wasn't exactly aware of your beliefs, but no contest here.

I dislike the term "free will." I prefer to say "responsibility."
Responsibility and consequences are what come after. Free will is making a choice -- for good or for ill. Rabbi Kushner wrote a terrific book about this and why there is evil in the world, When bad things happen to good people. Have you read it?

Responsibility and consequences are what come after.

Yes.


Free will is making a choice -- for good or for ill.

That's the part I'm not so sure about.


Rabbi Kushner wrote a terrific book about this and why there is evil in the world, When bad things happen to good people. Have you read it?

I've read parts of it, but don't remember that much about it. The best illustration I've ever seen of God's sovereignty and human responsibility (or free will, if you like) was a picture of a pair of railroad tracks vanishing off into the distance. One rail is God's sovereignty, including predestination and all the rest, and the other is man's ability to make choices and be held responsible for them. Somewhere over the horizon in the mind of God, the two come together. But it's far beyond what I can see.

I've read parts of it, but don't remember that much about it. The best illustration I've ever seen of God's sovereignty and human responsibility (or free will, if you like) was a picture of a pair of railroad tracks vanishing off into the distance. One rail is God's sovereignty, including predestination and all the rest, and the other is man's ability to make choices and be held responsible for them. Somewhere over the horizon in the mind of God, the two come together. But it's far beyond what I can see.

Hi dwash

Compatibilists would agree that free will and determinism are not contradictory.I am a compatibilist, but perhaps we are different types of compatibilists.

Generally speaking we can say that a person acts freely when his/her actions are caused internally. In other words, a persons actions are free if it is caused by a person's belief and desires ( leaving aside such things as psychosis).

Again, generally speaking a person can be said not to be a free agent if their actions are caused by an external agent strong enough to force them into action.

Jesus was the only agent strong enough to do this to Judas. Why would Jesus break the rule of taking away Judas' free will? Keeping in mind that God lets people exercise their free will.



Apologies to Wondergirl. I didn't read your previous posts. I just got back and didn't do my homework.


Tut

I will agree that compatibilism regarding the sovereignty of God and the free will of man are not mutually exclusive. How then, Tut, do you think of determinism? I don't agree with you that Jesus somehow caused Judas to act.

First moved over to discussion, to allow a more "open" communication.

And would Judas not be upset, and feeling betrayed his self. He saw Jesus do all the miracles he saw Jesus move groups of 5000 or more, and after all of that, Jesus would not make his kingdom on earth ( they way he wanted) Jesus would not take the 5000 and storm the city and the temple. Jesus would not throw the temple leaders out and set himself upon the head of the church.

Most of the 12 and followers were still looking for that earthly king to the very end, And all of the 12 just did not get it, since after Jesus was crucified they went and hid in fear.

I will agree that compatibilism regarding the sovereignty of God and the free will of man are not mutually exclusive. How then, Tut, do you think of determinism? I don't agree with you that Jesus somehow caused Judas to act.


Hi wondergirl,

If you are asking what I understand by determinism I would say that all events including human action are determined by the state of the laws of nature at any particular moment. Chance events do no occur.

I am not a rigid determinist for a number of reasons. I see that we are free agents provided there are no external influences (deterministic) strong enough to take away our choices. On this basis I don't believe it is realistic to say that we have freedom all of the time.

Could you outline why you think Jesus didn't cause Judas to act.

Regards

Tut

If you are asking what I understand by determinism I would say that all events including human action are determined by the state of the laws of nature at any particular moment. Chance events do no occur.
Please give me an example.

I don't believe it is realistic to say that we have freedom all of the time.
Please give an example to shown when we don't.

Could you outline why you think Jesus didn't cause Judas to act.
Judas could have decided at the last minute not to betray Jesus. I'm not sure what that then says about God's omniscience and the idea of determinism. God didn't really know what Judas was going to do, so Judas really wasn't part of God's plan, i.e. God didn't really HAVE a plan?

God always has a plan. Including Judas and knowing what he was going to do. Meaning that every piece of the puzzle that Jesus put together was part of the bigger plan. Or we would not have the story about Jesus that we do now.

I really think that Judas was not of God's PLAN.
Judas had his own free will and God who knows everything, knew what Judas would decide to do.
Therefor Jesus also knew and let Judas know that He did know.unfortunately or not form what Jesus said Judas may have thought that what Judas was going to do was OK with Jesus.
Of course it was OK because Jesus' mission included dying for redemption of our sins.
The more I think about it the sadder that seems to be.
Peace and kindness,
Fredf

Hi Wondergirl,

Sorry I took so long to get back to you.

You were asking about an example of rigid determinism.

Rigid determinists claim that chance events do not occur. I guess the best example can be found in other religions. Some non-Christian religions claim that things happen not because of chance, luck or free will but because God controls how things will turn out.

Why don't we have complete freedom of will all of the time?

Well actually, we do. However, it is important to distinguish between freedom of will and freedom of action. It is the freedom of action which restricts our free will. I think most of us have willed many things, but external circumstances prevent us from achieving our desires. For example, we all have out biological and psychological conditions which restrain us from time to time.

You are right when you say that Judas could have changed his mind at the last minute and not betrayed Jesus. He had free will up until the last minutes.

On this basis one would go along with the idea that God does not intervene when it comes to exercising our free will. However, I still can't figure out why Jesus/God intervened, unless he knew Judas was going to change his mind. Perhaps he was making sure he didn't change his mind.

You say that you are not sure what that says about God's omniscience and the idea of determinism. I'm not sure myself, but the evidence seems to point to the fact that God has intervened in our free will-- if only once.

Regards

Tut

You are right when you say that Judas could have changed his mind at the last minute and not betrayed Jesus. He had free will up until the last minutes.
Until the last minutes? What does that mean?

I believe Judas had total free will.

I still can't figure out why Jesus/God intervened, unless he knew Judas was going to change his mind. Perhaps he was making sure he didn't change his mind.
What did Jesus do to intervene?

the evidence seems to point to the fact that God has intervened in our free will-- if only once.
When was that?

It does seem to me that Judas had free will up until he did what he intended to do.
After that what was done was done though later Judas wanted to undo what he had done.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

It does seem to me that Judas had free will up until he did what he intended to do.
... until he did what he intended to do?? When was his free will taken away? When did it end?

Wondergirl,
I thought I explained that, but perhaps it was no clear enough for you. When
Judas did what he intended to do the die was cast on that subject.
His will on IT was done as I mentioned. There was no turning back.
Of course Judas still had free will on other subject he may have been considering.
Everyone has free will until their dying day that is what I believe and mean to say.
But when we do as we willed then the die is cast. It's done. The free will on that subject has been accomplished.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Thank you, arcura. When you said, "Judas had free will up until he did what he intended to do," it sounded like suddenly his free will was taken away at the last minute. I'm glad you clarified.

Glad I could help with that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Until the last minutes? What does that mean?

I believe Judas had total free will.

What did Jesus do to intervene?

When was that?


Hi Wondergirl,

He intervened when he said to Judas, 'go and do what you must do'.

Judas was going to make a decision one way or the other because he has free will. No doubt with such an important decision he would have agonized over it until he decided one way or the other.

It is possible to argue in a number of ways. That is, Judas was always certain in his own mind what he was going to do. Judas didn't really want to betray Jesus. The other possibility is that he was in a state of indecision. All of these possibilities can be said to be internally derived.

One definition of free will( the one I have been using) suggests that someone's free will can be subverted if some outside agency is powerful enough to override internal decision making. Clearly. If we hold a gun to someone's head we can take away their free will.

When Jesus said to Judas,'go and do what you must do' it becomes irrelevant as to how Jesus' statement influenced Judas. If Judas was in two minds then this statement would have a powerful influence. On the other hand if Judas was clear in his own mind that he was always going to betray Jesus then this statement would have little impact.

The point is that Jesus attempted to influence Judas' free will by his statement. We all are guilty of attempting to influence the free will of others. This is nothing new or unusual for humans. However, it becomes significant when God/Jesus does it.

Tut

He intervened when he said to Judas, 'go and do what you must do'.
That's not an intervention. Jesus wasn't trying to either stop him or egg him on.

It is possible to argue in a number of ways. That is, Judas was always certain in his own mind what he was going to do. Judas didn't really want to betray Jesus. The other possibility is that he was in a state of indecision. All of these possibilities can be said to be internally derived.
You've given only two possibilities, not "all," and your first one is the same as your second one ("Judas didn't really want to betray Jesus" = "the other possibility is that he was in a state of indecision.")

One definition of free will( the one I have been using) suggests that someone's free will can be subverted if some outside agency is powerful enough to override internal decision making. Clearly. If we hold a gun to someone's head we can take away their free will.
We can, but they may still exert their free will anyway.

The point is that Jesus attempted to influence Judas' free will by his statement. We all are guilty of attempting to influence the free will of others. This is nothing new or unusual for humans. However, it becomes significant when God/Jesus does it.
Wow! Are you saying Jesus messed with Judas' free will and caused him to sin?

The point is that Jesus attempted to influence Judas' free will by his statement. We all are guilty of attempting to influence the free will of others. This is nothing new or unusual for humans. However, it becomes significant when God/Jesus does it.

Tut

Tut<

Judas had no faith. Judas was greedy. Judas wanted what he wanted and he used his position as one of the 12 disciples to try and get it. He had freewill the entire time. Even after he betrayed the Lord COULD have asked the Lord Jesus to forgive him, and the Lord would have. But he didn't. No one influenced Judas except for maybe satan and satan couldn't have entered him if he would have had faith in who Jesus really was. Judas had this little deal going on behind (or at least what he THOUGHT was behind) the Lord's back. All Jesus was saying was to get it over with. I don't get how that influenced him? The Bible says that Jesus knew the heart of man. So, he knew Judas heart. If he would have begged and pleaded with Judas NOT to do it, do you really think he wouldn't have? The Lord point blank TOLD Peter he was going to deny him 3 times that night before the rooster crowed, and much to Peter dismay, he did just that. Does that mean he influence Peter too? Please... The Lord knows ALL things but that doesn't mean each individual isn't responsible for their choices.

Wow! Are you saying Jesus messed with Judas' free will and caused him to sin?



No I am not saying that. If I were then I would be saying there is no such thing as free will. This is not my position. There are few outside agencies powerful enough to negate our free will.

If we assume that Judas' mind was made up then nothing anyone (including Jesus) could say to make him change his mind. So Jesus' statement was NOT significant in terms of influencing free will. Even if Jesus requested Judas not to betray him it probably would have fallen on deaf ears.

The other possibility is that Judas was in two minds. In this context Jesus' statement takes on more significance. I am NOT saying that this statement is enough to cause Judas to betray Jesus under these circumstances. What I am saying is that there is an argument for attempted intervention.


Actually, when I think it through a bit further I am happy to believe that Jesus knew the future. Therefore, the statement is not significant under these circumstances.

Tut

I am of a firm mind that Judas had free will all the time.
Fred