Okay, so I have been doing my certificate 3 in Companion Animal Services.
Now, while doing the dog training segment of this course, our attention has been directed to some really disgraceful stuff that goes on in the animal training world.
Now, I am sure you are all familiar with the old style of training, and even the best of today's trainers grew up using the same training method.
In the old days, the accepted method of training a dog involved being the "Alpha" and dominating the dog. Many trainers and people used to do things like tagging the dog (jerking on the lead), hitting dogs, hitting dogs on the nose, yelling at them in a "commanding" voice, etc.
Nowadays, the industry standard code of practice requires a newer, better method, called +R, or Positive Reinforcement. This is because the old method involves hurting the animal, and can cause the animal to become aggressive when it has had enough, and lash out. Positive Reinforcement training has been proven as a far superior method, and it has been shown that old stuff, like tagging, can actually cause sever pain and spinal damage to dogs, as can choke chains.
One the number one people both vets and dog trainers have told me they hate while I have been doing this cause, is Cesar Millan, the so called "Dog Whisperer". He uses a variation on the old outdated dominance methods. Here is a YouTube vid of a news report showing some of the horrible things he does to dogs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpcNOwbRyOE

Other companies to watch out for are ones like bark busters.

Please, please ensure that if you train your dog, or hire a dog trainer, that you/they use Positive Reinforcement. The health and happiness of your pet is dependent on this, as is the safety of your family.

Thanks for the info Cal! :) I think this could be stickied to the board.

Thanks Unknown. So many people out there are causing pain and distress to their animals just because they were raised to dominate dogs. Also, I have heard stories of people who have had to clean the blood off the walls in kennels after they tried to emulate Cesar.

Caesar Milan is a television actor, he does what pleases the public.


In the beginning he used to physically pinch the dogs neck to get it's attention and distract it.
The public didn't like that.
So that was changed to a 'poke' to the neck.
Still, the public didn't like it, now he doesn't do it at all.

I haven't seen much of his show (an episode here and there plus interviews), but I have seen enough to know I don't want to watch it.

There are a lot of people around who think positive reinforcement doesn't work and that people who use it are "idiot bunny huggers" (what I have been called many times).
People seem to think that because his methods are "old school" and have been around a long time they must work... nope!

Some dogs do require corrections when training yes, but some of the ways he does it are just plain stupid. There are right and wrong ways to correct a dog.

I do partially agree with some things.
You do need to assert dominance over a dog, but I much prefer my method which is basically being the food provider and doing obedience over laying a dog on it's back and holding it there.
I have never done anything overly assertive like that and my dogs sure know who is boss.

I do use corrections in some cases... I am lead training my puppy at the moment and he is so, so naughty. He jumps and spins and pulls on the lead, so what I do is just give the lead a bit of a tug and go "UH-UH!" and he settles down. Then when he is being a good boy and trotting along nicely he gets a treat, so that's both sides, corrective and positive.

For training my dogs to do obedience (sit, stay, beg etc) the ONLY thing I use is positive reinforcement.

cal823 agrees : I agree Shazz. You can have the dogs respect and obedience without being horrible to the animal

One of my dogs used to be extremely timid, to the point of wetting herself if someone went near her.
I can't imagine how she would have ended up if Caesar had have taken her and trained, her... she would be an absolute mess.

I think you're being a bit alarmist, Cal. In most cases positive reinforcement is vastly superior to older methods, but it is not a panacea. From the one-sidedness of the video (typical) one could get the impression Milan is just a disciplinarian. I do disagree with some of his techniques just as I'm sure he would disagree with some of mine, but shocking and hanging are not all that he does. Unlike some dogs, the issue isn't black and white. I realize I have a bias, as my training methods go into protection as well as obedience. There are times my animals are the only cops around when the bad guys act out.

Cats: You also have to wonder how much gets left on the cutting room floor while making the show.

He will string a dog up and then it cuts to the dog being nice and placid... what did he do in between those shots I wonder.

I think the show is terrible and promotes animal cruelty (by wannabe trainers who think his word is gospel)

I'm not saying EVERYTHING he does is bad, just a good portion of it.

Cats: You also have to wonder how much gets left on the cutting room floor while making the show.

He will string a dog up and then it cuts to the dog being nice and placid.... what did he do in between those shots I wonder.

I think the show is terrible and promotes animal cruelty (by wannabe trainers who think his word is gospel)

I'm not saying EVERYTHING he does is bad, just a good portion of it.

That's my point. He's not evil, nor are his techniques. Let me also point out that, as television, only the extreme cases are shown. You do make a good point about wannabes thinking that just because he did it in 23 minutes they can have a perfect animal by beating them or hanging them.

I'm glad we are basically on the same wavelength on this one Cats, I really value your opinion.

I was not saying Cesar is evil or anything, he just breaks the industry code of practice (well he at least violates the Australian dog training code of practice, not sure what the american code of practice is like)

Another problem I have with him is that he does big shows with audiences full of people with dogs, and tells them all what to do with their dog. You have to determine that with the dogs as individuals, not just tell a whole crowd of people what to do with their pet without even looking at their animals.

Yes, every dog is different, what works for mine might not work for someone else, that's why I usually try to provide a few different options for people on here, so they can decide what they think would work best.

I don't like pos. Reinforcment training. I can't stand clicker training drives me crazy

I don't like pos. Reinforcment training. I can't stand clicker training drives me crazy

You have to find what works for you and THAT dog, not the previous one, not the next one.

My dad beats them with pipes

Steel pipes... or boards... or hammers... or axe handles... or bladed spatulas

I know you all will most likely disagree with me (which is fine) but I love Cesar Millan. I've never seen a show where he is abusive to dogs and I've watched almost all of his shows.

I use a combination, Assertive dominance (that doesn't mean hurting the dog, it means asserting myself as leader) and positive reinforcement, along with other methods. Lucky, I hate the clicker method too. It doesn't work and it's annoying as hell. ;)

I don't subscribe to one particular way to train but I do mainly use Cesars methods because they work and I'm not hurting my dog.

Cesar actually hates choker chains and only uses them because that's what the owners have on hand. He's actually manufactured a collar that is both humane and works. I'd buy one, but because I have to order it online, and can't fit it to my dog, I won't buy it.

There is a lot of controversy when training a dog. Everyone has a different opinion. I think it's up the owner and the dog. What works for one won't work for another. As long as the dog is not being hurt, is being treated humanely, I don't have a problem with it. I only go off on the people that hit their dogs or rub their dogs noses in their pee or poo in order to train them. I do not condone violence or abuse of any kind.

As long as you're not hurting the dog, beating the dog, or harming the dog, most methods are equally acceptable.

I would never hurt any animal in my care, I think you all know me well enough to know that. Having said that. I would not support Cesars methods if I thought for a minute that he hurt animals.

Just my opinion.

I've used Bark Busters, and it was completely positive reinforcement.

Too much politics in obedience, I'm staying out of this one.

Do you guys ever watch this girl? I find it a better show than "Dog Whisperer" although not quite as dramatic.

Victoria Stilwell, Dog Training, It's Me Or The Dog : Animal Planet (http://animal.discovery.com/tv/its-me-or-dog/)

Yea I like that show. She seems pretty good. I've only seen a few episodes, but one of them was about a little malti poo who wouldn't let the woman's husband near her. It was kind of funny.

I love Victoria Still well, her methods make complete sense to me.

However even with her, she's still just an actor and there is a lot of training and footage that would get left out of the show.

I guess I'm just not a big fan of those kind of shows altogether, they show people that training a dog can happen overnight, when it rarely if ever does.

Emop, I don't care if this is your dad, he needs to be reported to the authorities.

Animal abuse is not something to be taken lightly.

Those poor dogs.

I agree with shaz. Physical violence against animals is completely unacceptable. If he did that to people, he would go to jail.

I agree with shaz. Physical violence against animals is completely unacceptable. If he did that to people, he would go to jail.

I'll third this. Do we need to vote? I think this measure will pass by acclamation.

I love Victoria Still well, her methods make complete sense to me.

However even with her, she's still just an actor and there is a lot of training and footage that would get left out of the show.

I guess I'm just not a big fan of those kind of shows altogether, they show people that training a dog can happen overnight, when it rarely if ever does.



I totally agree Shaz.

I just wish the global community would come to its senses and pass a global treaty demanding that those who are deliberately cruel to animals should receive HOT INSTANTANEOUS DEATH!

Okay, maybe I am being a bit silly/unrealistic there.
But we do need better policing of animal care. Here in australia you don't even need any qualifications to be a dog trainer. So any idiot can teach people how to care for their animals, even if they are completely wrong.

Hot instantaneous death?

How about long, cruel, drawn out, painful, torturous death?

I think Australia needs higher penalties for animal cruelty offenders. Most people get off with just a fine, and occasionally are limited to only owning 1 or 2 dogs.
Complete barring from owning any animals, and jail terms are rare.

I think that the TV trainers only show the easy stuff. You rarely ever see either one of the TV trainers take on a human aggressive dog or a dog with severe separation anxiety. Its typically the owners that have no clue what their doing.

However, I still think pos. reienforcement training is silly. None of the TV trainers are going to show on their program the trainers laying down the laws. Anyone who owns a dog knows that sometimes, to get your point across, you cannot plead or necessarily be nice to your dog.

Am I saying you should beat your dog into submission? Or choke the heck out of it until its tongue turns blue? Absolutely not. But all methods of training, if done right, are humane.

I think the best type of training, that is most effective in my opinion.. Is understand your dog. No, don't sit down and have a yoga session with them... But understand where their coming from.. Why they act the way they act. If you don't understand your dog and "commune" with them, then any type of training is a waste of time.

I don't agree with clicker training. I think its one more thing an owner has to stumble over. Yes, it may work for some people... But I've noticed that the only people who succeed in clicker training are either the dedicated trainers.. Or the owners who really want to make changes.

When it comes down to it.. People want quick fixes when it comes to training their dogs.

I think Australia needs higher penalties for animal cruelty offenders. Most people get off with just a fine, and occasionally are limited to only owning 1 or 2 dogs.
Complete barring from owning any animals, and jail terms are rare.

Same things happen here.

People get caught 'dog-fighting' and end up with less time than Michael Vick got.

Some people who are supposed to be trained to train owners (and their dogs) are as bad as those with no training:
Within the last couple of years, a K-9 patrol trooper was caught on tape (a fellow trainer/trooper recorded it with his cell phone) 'hanging' his dog (one he was training. Yes, he trained the dogs.) from a wooden loading dock railing by his leash (hind paws barely touching the ground) and kicked his legs out from under him about three times. In the video, the dog could be seen swinging under the loading dock while trying to get his feet back under him. Why? Because the dog didn't give a toy back quickly enough. The trooper defended his actions by saying it was an appropriate way to train a dog. The trooper was fired, but ended up getting his job back after he appealed the firing (I am not certain if he back training dogs.) The judge who heard his appeal (if I remember correctly) said there wasn't enough proof that he was doing anything wrong. Last I heard the dog's name was changed and he was sent to another place to continue training.

The public outcry over that incident did show that people (even those divided on how to train) realize there are boundaries between 'training' and 'abuse'.

I use clicker with Lady. It's kind of stupid I agree, but it works.

I don't use the clicker at home, but I do fully support +R training.

But I am not afraid to show my dog who is boss, and neither are the +R trainers that I use.

I think I remember seeing that Cat.

Disgusting.

Pos reinforcement is not pleading or being silly or anything like that. It is simply telling your dog it is a good dog when it does the right thing, and not using violence or scaring the crap out of the dog.

I agree, Positive Reinforcement is a good method of training. I haven't seen too many trainers be negative with their dogs.

I think a good trainer knows all methods of training.. From clicker training to remote shock collar training. Not every dog is going to react or even learn the same way. Every trainer, and even sometimes the owners, need to be prepared to put their foot down. And like I said.. Choke chains, shock collars and even the pinch collar are good and useful training aids and are NOT bad if used correctly. Unfortunately, too many people don't know how to use those training aids propery and it does turn into abuse.

Dogs don't understand a lot of these popular training methods. They understand that a action that the dog does is either good or bad.

Dogs don't understand being hit. They understand what a bite is though. Dogs don't understand why their nose gets rubbed into its own urin, but the dog understands your reaction, which is negative, when its peeing and got caught.

I don't like training dogs one way. There are too many different personalities out there to be stuck in one method. My training techniques are probably more +R then anything else... I just don't like to consider myself a +R trainer because I am prepared to do more.