I am currently working on an experimental documentary about religious upbringing and in connecting with others to explore why we do or do not question our faith, I've found that most of those who feel strongly against religion were raised Catholic. What is it about Catholicism that turns so many away? Is it the "fear and guilt" associated with Catholicism? Is it the rigid traditionalism or Catholic schooling?

This is going to turn into a firestorm but here goes.

I was raised strict Roman Catholic. My split is about the "We are right and everybody else is wrong" philosophy as well as the hypocrisy. I know that RC's are not the only ones who "own" bad clergymen, hypocrites but I am not familiar with other religions.

Maybe other RC churches are different but my childhood religious experience consisted of people judging each other instead of leaving that up to God - and it turned me away. I've seen people here, on this board, preach Christianity and then in the next breath attack someone purely in the name of God.

That's my experience - I wanted a religion with less fire and brimstone and more love and support.

I see the problem as being that the RCC (and some others) as holding that there is no truth outside of their group.

That is difficult to hang on to when you see so much that is wrong going on within that group.

What EVERYONE needs to know is that NO church gives salvation.

A good church is needed and worthy of support for a lot of reasons, but SALVATION comes from knowing and receiving Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

His record, love, and commands are all revealed in the pages of the New Testament. Read it with an open heart and mind, and you will find the TRUTH.

I see the problem as being that the RCC (and some others) as holding that there is no truth outside of thier group.

That is difficult to hang on to when you see so much that is wrong going on within that group.

What EVERYONE needs to know is that NO church gives salvation.

A good church is needed and worthy of support for a lot of reasons, but SALVATION comes from knowing and receiving Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

His record, love, and commands are all revealed in the pages of the New Testament. Read it with an open heart and mind, and you will find the TRUTH.



But what about non-Christians? There is no salvation for them?

- and there is my other problem with Christianity in general.

Most are turned away by untrue statements of groups that make it their sole purpose to attack other groups.

At times one issue is that they do not cater to those that want new and modern.

But to some the changes they have made, ( like Vactican II) stoping the Latin Mass, were turn offs

jenjeru,
Your statement, "I've found that most of those who feel strongly against religion were raised Catholic." amazed me.
The Catholic religion is Christianity just as are the Protestant denominations.
Perhaps you are referring to other religions than Christianity.
I know of no Catholics who are against the religion of Christianity.
I'm a former protestant who for years was very hostile to Catholicism but the more I studied the more I could see that Catholicism was true full Christianity and after much resistance became a Catholic, but I am NOT against other denominations.
I fact I still love the denomination I left because it lead me to Jesus Christ.
So please be more clear as to what your statement says.
Are you speaking of Christian denominations or other religions?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

jenjeru,
Your statement, "I've found that most of those who feel strongly against religion were raised Catholic." amazed me.
The Catholic religion is Christianity just as are the Protestant denominations.
Perhaps you are referring to other religions than Christianity.
I know of no Catholics who are against the religion of Christianity.
I'm a former protestant who for years was very hostile to Catholicism but the more I studied the more I could see that Catholicism was true full Christianity and after much resistance became a Catholic, but I am NOT against other denominations.
I fact I still love the denomination I left because it lead me to Jesus Christ.
So please be more clear as to what your statement says.
Are you speaking of Christian denominations or other religions?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

Thank you for your answer. I am speaking about Catholicism in particular, as a denomination of Christianity. I understand that there are many reasons for choosing a particular faith or leaving it (depending on geography, ethnicity, culture, etc.) so the fact that most of the people I have interviewed about falling away from religion are Catholic is largely based on the community in which I was raised and currently reside.

However, I'm more interested in getting a broader opinion about Catholicism and why there is such a push against it... why being raised Catholic affects people so strongly. One Catholic priest that I interviewed said to me in a joking manner, "Do you know what the largest Christian denomination around the world is today? Catholicism. Do you know what the second largest is? Former Catholics."

So again, it's not necessarily Catholics being against Christianity, but rather something about Catholicism (be it the dogmatism, or rejection of other beliefs as previously mentioned) that causes groups like "recovering Catholics" to form.

All best,

Jenna

One of the issue is "issues" the Catholic Church has a moral compass, and specific set standards, unlike some other churches, it does not allow or let people decide what they feel is right, the church tells them what is correct on issues of sex before marriage, abortion, and other issues. Along with this, many people don't like being told what is the correct moral code.

One of the issue is "issues" the Catholic Church has a moral compass, and specific set standards, unlike some other churches, it does not allow or let people decide what they feel is right, the church tells them what is correct on issues of sex before marriage, abortion, and other issues. Along with this, many people don't like being told what is the correct moral code.


This is also one of my concerns - in my area decisions about second marriages (without church annulments), birth control, abortion (which startles me) are matters of conscience.

Apparently if it's okay with "you" it's okay with the Church.

Very unlike the way I was taught! I was also raised to believe that the worst sin of all was bad example.

I also agree - I could do without the kiss of peace, guitar music and mass in English.

So far I have restrained myself, But can no longer hold back.
In my opinion and you are free to disagree, but In my opinion the biggest problem the RCC has are legalism, and too much pomp and ceremony. For those like Fred who like that sort of religion that's fine. But to reach people today you must talk and work at their level. That does not mean drinking and swearing , but rather actually having been where they are and able to relate to them in a real way. As I see it, priests are too insulated from real world experiences. Couple that to a hierarchy that is too steeped in robes and laws than trying to reach lost souls.
The people who are actually reaching the most people today have been delivered from drugs, alcohol, or sex addictions. They are the ones who relate to and reach people, like God commanded. Jesus did not go to the religious leaders of his day, he went to the sinners and saved them. He knew that pomp and ceremony as practiced by the Jewish leaders of the day did not work. So why do people believe it will work today?

My gosh, Donn - I can't believe we FINALLY agree on something!

Well said.

This is a can of worms; and I’ll try to keep this worm within a respectable distance of the can’s rim. From the OP I think it would be fair to assume that the perspective is strictly ‘raised Protestant’ with little contact with Catholics or the likes of me – staunchly orthodox and Roman Catholic. Some here might want to use a few different adjectives – but I earned those bad adjectives, not the Church.

The Catholic priest you spoke to was right in two ways. First, all but a very few Protestant denominations are a result of schism from the Catholic Church – their history begins with breaking away from the Catholic Church. Most have a history only 1/4th that of the span of time separating us from Christ and the commissioning of His Church. The second is that the population of the Catholic Church is comparatively large that the smallest fraction of these apostates would seem huge compared to that of the Protestant Churches.

My perception is that there are more Protestants returning home as opposed to Catholics leaving. Neverthelessto explain this small percentage leaving I’ve come to the conclusion that the reason for the perceived ‘push against the Church’ can be characterized as a viral illness of faith. Pathologically this disease starts in earnest with Martin Luther which eventually spread across Europe in 1500 & 1600’s.

It’s my opinion that Protestantism is symptomatic of the H1N1 virus of faith. It’s a designer virus attacking right reasoning since its introduction by an errant monk. (I’ve recently been convinced that he was pathologically mad – but that’s for another thread). This virus is defined by some (such as me) as liberalism; somewhat similar to the political variant. Liberalism holds that there is, as a right, emancipation from Divine Authority proclaiming a sovereignty of will in all sectors of life that control and judge all matters of faith and morals. To satisfy the liberal, God must conform His will to that of the liberal. Liberalism’s true authority resides in the subjective interior of the individual with the power to shut out God’s workings within His own creation. The philosophy proposes that "It is contrary to the natural, innate, and inalienable right and liberty and dignity of man, to subject himself to an authority, the root, rule, measure, and sanction of which is not in himself.” At least in part, and perhaps in some cases without realizing it, liberalism denies God with this autonomous freedom, conflicting with the Catholic Church. Once completely overtaken by the disease, the individual finds no ‘right’, no ‘wrong’; only that which warms the interior, that which feels good becomes good.

An autonomous authority requires “freedom from” morals as well as “freedom to” implement a proxy ethic independent of God’s will; which is how the Protestant schism is viewed by some Catholics. As such Scriptures become subjective to the individual and the meaning becomes different for each individual (or from group to group); thus we hear the refrain "one religion is as good as another." Faith becomes a social construct based on whether it feels right, or feels good, changing from time to time depending on expediency. Discipline in faith is exercised less and less; it becomes weedy with passing of time until all discipline in right reasoning is rejected. The fault seems to be that conclusions drawn from the autonomous intellectual is lacking the guidance and authority found in the Catholic Church. Judgments become rationalizations without a foundation in an absolute truth that only the Catechism brings. Thus it can be said that liberalism becomes the program of rationalism; where “Free thought begets free morals, or immorality- Restraint is thrown off and a free rein given to the passions. WHOEVER THINKS WHAT HE PLEASES WILL DO WHAT HE PLEASES (sic).” (See Link -~Liberalism is a Sin~ (http://www.liberalismisasin.com/))


--------------- EDIT-------------------

Like many viruses found in nature, there is no natural immunity, the body merely becomes accustom to profaning pathogen. Each variant of liberalism mutates from simple schismatic sect to complex variants completely void of any vestige of Christianity. There is however a treatment facility, a Divine hospice, which is the Catholic faith.

Therefore, what you see as pushing away, I see as a sick reasoning. The Church turns nobody away; I hope your priest told you that. The Church takes in sinner, saints, even grouchy old men. “Fear and guilt” isn’t connected to Catholicism it’s the only faith I know of that offers a sacrament of penance; for the contrite a complete absolution that not only removes the stain of sin, but any indebtedness to Divine Justice. So, if there is any fear or guilt, it’s entirely self induced – I would suggest from, at least in part, liberalism.

Beyond me, beyond what must sound like a grouchy old man, assuming you’re a just person, I’d suggest relying heavily on your prejudices and not dig too deep into Catholicism. The reasons are best explained by G.K. Chesterton who once wrote, "It is impossible to be just to the Catholic Church. The moment men cease to pull against it they feel a tug towards it. The moment they cease to shout it down they begin to listen to it with pleasure. The moment they try to be fair to it they begin to be fond of it. But when that affection has passed a certain point it begins to take on the tragic and menacing grandeur of a great love affair. The man has exactly the same sense of having…compromised himself; of having been in a sense entrapped, even if he is glad to be entrapped. But for a considerable time he is not so much glad as simply terrified. It may be that this real psychological experience has been misunderstood by stupider people and is responsible for all that remains of the legend that Rome is a mere trap. But that legend misses the whole point of the psychology. It is not the Pope who has set the trap or the priests who have baited it. The whole point of the position is that the trap is simply the truth. The whole point is that the man himself has made his way towards the trap of truth, and not the trap that has run after the man. All steps except the last step he has taken eagerly on his own account, out of interest in the truth; and even the last step, or the last stage, only alarms him because it is so very true.” In short, if you dig too deep you may find yourself ensnared.

JoeT

As of this writing, there are two non-Catholic responses that typify liberalism on this very thread; one has the nature of relativism the other of rationalism. One is willing to accept Catholicism for Catholics – as long as she is confined – this is a variant of ‘one religion is as good as another’. The other states the desire for a religion that suits the needs of the writer.JoeT



Would you care to name names and cite examples?

Would you care to name names and cite examples?

No - You'll beat me up! But, if you insist I will.

I think if you are going to give your opinion of where people are coming from they have the right to defend themselves (or herself, in this case, and I believe I'm the only female "here").

First of all, I didn't use gender that would identify anybody, I simply said 'writer'. I'll be happy to discuss this, it's not BAD; it simply typifies the type of 'liberalism' I was discussing. If you want to continue I will.

JoeT

jenjeru,
I firmly believe that anyone who really understands Catholic teaching will never leave the Church unless they do it for selfish sinful reasons.
It took me years to finally come to the understanding of The Church and all of its ceremony (there are very valid biblical reasons for the robes and ceremony).
Those who speak out against The Church do so much because they do not understand it and speak NOT about what it is but rather what they THINK it is.
Fr_Chuck mentioned some of the other reasons.
SOME People LIKE their immorality.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Jenjuru, you have some good answers from the posts here. Catholics that are raised Catholic or are converts, find themselves mostly leaving when they come to a point in their life when they do not want to follow the rules anymore, especially birth control and homosexuality. That is the main reason a Catholic would leave.

There are tons of other reasons, but birth control is number one. If one does not want to follow the rules, why would one want to stay?

I site this article, but it is in many places on the web, just ask most any local mom ex-Catholic you know around town.
Many Catholics Leave Faith Over Dissatisfaction With Teachings On Abortion, Other Issues, Study Finds (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/148239.php)

rosemcs,
What you say is true, but...
I very much believe that almost all people who truly know and understand the Catholic Christian faith will never leave it.
There are very good reasons the Catholic Church teaches as it does and those reasons are all biblically based.
Peace
E and kindness,
Fred

Hello Joe T.

In regards to C.B. Pallen's thesis on 'What Liberalism is"

This is a misrepresentation of Liberal philosophy. It is difficult to know where to begin so I will begin with a quote by Pallen.

'Absolute freedom of thought in politics, morals, or religion. The unrestrained liberty of the press. Such are the radical principles of Liberalism. In the assumption of absolute sovereignty of the individual, that is, his entire independence of God we find the common source of all the others. To express them all in one term in the order of ideas, they are RATIONALISM the doctrine of absolute sovereignty of human reason"

Firstly, RATIONALISM is not the basis of Liberalism. Liberal philosophers such as Mill, Bentham and Locke are empirical philosophers.

Plato, St. Thomas Aquinas and Descartes are rationalist philosophers. There is an important distinction here.

Pallen tries to paint Liberalism as a 'bootstrap' theory. This is impossible because it is empirically based. I can see why he plays the rationalist card. He knows as well as as everyone else that rationalist theories are not subject to any proof others than those contained within the premises of the theory. In other words, Pallen cannot show that Liberalism is self evidently inconsistent because it is not a rationalist theory.

TUT317,
What frightens me most about such thinking is the ultra radials of and in any party.
Saddly to me it seems that both major parties these days is run by ultra radicals AND...
Unfortunately we have some Christian denominations who appear to be run the same way.
With not enough Peace and kindness,
Fred

I as some of you know have been brought up Roman Catholic.

There are many things within the catholic church that I enjoy and some of the masses are amazing.

At the same time. I was brought up that everything was sin, that we had to confess our sins at all times. As a young child being forced to go to confession on a weekly basis. Here I am as a child thinking okay what am I going to say to the priest? I felt like I had to make up things or feel that no matter what I did, I was always needing to confess something.

Now there are many ceremonies part of the church or even rituals and beliefs of the church that actually go against Gods teachings.

I will list some,

First: Communion. We are told you have to go through all this processes to be accepted at the table or the front for communion. That children are only allowed to be blessed but now allowed to receive it.

Who exactly did Jesus welcome first and said who would be excepted in the kingdom of God, Children. So children according to the Catholic church are not aloud to receive the host? Or be welcomed along with everyone else.

Also Jesus, did not ask are you protestant, catholic, Anglican, or so forth. He welcomed ALL to the table to eat with him. All are accepted to come to Jesus. Catholic church thinks that only Catholics that are baptized and went through communion are welcomed up to receive the host but everyone else is told they can take a flying leap because they do not belong there. Wrong again. All denominations, all people who want to receive the host and believe in the gathering should be welcomed, period.

So in my own opinion the catholic rigid teachings are against Gods teaching of love and acceptance.

Recent experience with my son, he wants to be excepted and seen everybody else receive the bread except for him. It actually seriously hurt him. He should be part of the gathering of the table no matter what.

I understand the Catholics all to well. Being in church having women go to confession and then come out and talk and gossip about other people within the church because somebody might not be standing or sitting or doing whatever anybody else is doing.

I think we need to worship God. In whatever way the spirit leads us, but not the way somebody or body dictates to us.

Also we are taught the church community is very important and that within the church is where the people gather is the church.

Yet when my wife and I got married. We wanted to get married outside, by the ocean. We were told that the catholic church and specifically the priest said that is not allowed. The church, the building and the people inside the church is what makes it the community.

Although, in my mind it is not about the church, it is not about the building. It is about the peoples hearts and minds and souls and where they gather or come together should not matter.

Another thing is confession, you confess to a priest. Confessions of any kind should be brought to God. Priest or the Pope have no authority or spirit or mind to bring it to God for us. It should be up to each individual to bring their confessions to God and God alone.

Jesus is the head of the church, not the priest, not the pope. That simple really.

My mother got divorced years ago. The divorce was for legit reasons. Father had affairs and was a drunk. So years later, legally divorced. She went to the Catholic church to get married to my step father and the church refused to allow it and did not recognize her divorce. Now if you want to go by according to what the bible says in certain circumstances divorce is allowed. She was not allowed to get married. So she ended up getting married in the baptist church because they recognized her marriage.

Also my aunt had a child, she was not married. They did not want to baptize the baby because it was a baby out of wed lock and they were not going to recognize the baby as a catholic or even baptize the baby.

I also feel that each church is different depending on the priest and church. Catholic denominations are not all the same and have sin differences within different catholic churches as well as Anglican and baptist , etc...

Now in ending, You all hope. Just kidding. It does not matter what church or denomination or group you go with or attend or believe in there is no 100 percent correctness. It does not matter what denomination I went to, it does not seem that my Idea of God, and my Belief in God, and my Experience with God fits any ONE denomination or religion because guess what? Religion and denominations are ALL man made.

IMPERFECT. Now there are certain situations that I believe are right and some are wrong. I try to listen to my spirit within that God gave me to direct my life. We do have that within each of us I believe.

I do my best not to judge, but have seen lots of judgments made especially from fellow Catholics.

It is not wonder why Catholics have such a reputation. By the way just because somebody goes to church once a week does not make them any better then somebody else that does not go all the time. Or not at all. Many former Catholics believe that they know God within their hearts and souls and have formed their own opinions and thoughts about life and what God is all about.

I think I am done.

Joe

First of all, I didn't use gender that would identify anybody, I simply said 'writer'. I'll be happy to discuss this, it's not BAD; it simply typifies the type of 'liberalism' I was discussing. If you want to continue I will.

JoeT


Unfortunately for you, JoeT, I copied your post before you went back and edited it (and quoted it in my original response to you). Now you say you "didn't use gender that would identify anybbody. simply said 'writer'."

Here's what you said (pre edit): [I]One is willing to accept Catholicism for Catholics – as long as she is confined – this is a variant of 'one religion is as good as another'."

Would you like a moderator to look up your post before the change was made?

Another person who cannot defend what he posts and/or shifts position. Even worse you've denied that you said what you said - for whatever reason.

- on the religion board.

I rest my case.

Unfortunately for you, JoeT, I copied your post before you went back and edited it (and quoted it in my original reponse to you). Now you say you "didn't use gender that would identify anybbody. simply said 'writer'."

Here's what you said (pre edit): [I]One is willing to accept Catholicism for Catholics – as long as she is confined – this is a variant of 'one religion is as good as another'."

Would you like a moderator to look up your post before the change was made?

Another person who cannot defend what he posts and/or shifts position. Even worse you've denied that you said what you said - for whatever reason.

- on the religion board.

I rest my case.

It snowed here, quite a strange event for this area. In my usual morning fog, I didn't notice until I was half way to the car and found myself boot deep in snow. Southerners have no idea what to do with snow; so I'm quite lost this morning. I've heard that if you get snow on your person, you turn into a frozen pillar of ice, or something like that.

If you'll notice, 'she' was in reference to the Roman Catholic Church, not to any individual. One of the comments was that Catholicism was no problem as long as we kept our views within the Church. I took it that the writer was suggesting a 'quarantine' of reason being that (my words) Catholic Truth only applies to Catholics; thus we should keep it to ourselves.

I edited out my observation out of respect for you; I apologize for being thoughtless. This is especially true knowing that that while most non-Catholics don't mind criticizing Catholicism they find it offensive when the worm turns.

My intent was to show how 'liberalism' works in contemporary thought.

I can, and I'm more than willing, to defend my case; I just want to make sure you're really willing to take 'push back' from a Catholic.


JoeT

Quite frankly, I'm out of here - I find it less than honest to substantially amend a post AFTER it's been answered. In my eyes this is very similar to deliberately misquoting anyone.

I (obviously) "didn't notice" that your reference to "she" was in regard to the Catholic Church - and I don't know why you didn't simply say that from the beginning instead of dancing this dance.

Quite frankly, I'm out of here - I find it less than honest to substantially amend a post AFTER it's been answered. In my eyes this is very similar to deliberately misquoting anyone.

I (obviously) "didn't notice" that your reference to "she" was in regard to the Catholic Church - and I don't know why you didn't simply say that from the beginning instead of dancing this dance.

Quite frankly, it was so obvious I didn't think I needed to point it out.

JoeT

jenjeru: I must question the basis of this entire thread. Your hypothesis is that people raised in the Roman Catholic church are more inclined to leave the church of their upbringing than are people raised in other Christian denominations - meaning Protestants - but you base this solely on personal observation So I would ask you two questions:

1. Is you sample biased by where you happen to live? I would guess that if you live in a neighborhood with a large RC population you'll get different set of results that if you live in an area with few RC's.

2. How do you count Protestants who grew up in one denominaton but are now members of another? In your analysis do they count as having "left"? If not, then your sampling method is invalid. Take me for example: my parents both grew up as Methodists, but moved to a town town that had only one protestant church - it was New England Congregational, so if you weren't Roman Catholic or Jewish that's where you went, and that's the church I was raised in. Then I moved away and married a girl who is Episcopalean, and that's the church we have attended for 25 years and our kids grew up in. Meanwhile my parents moved to Florida and joined the local Presbyterian Church. So I ask - does this mean my family has "left" the church 4 times? That's certainly not how we feel. So how would you count me in your poll?

TUT317,
What frightens me most about such thinking is the ultra radials of and in any party.
Saddly to me it seems that both major parties these days is run by ultra radicals AND...
Unfortunately we have some Christian denominations who appear to be run the same way.
With not enough Peace and kindness,
Fred


Yes I agree with that. The problem is that Pallen ignores or fails to see the importance of separating church and state. This is the basis of any liberal philosophy.

The problem is that if we reject Liberalism then we have very few alternatives other than some type of autocratic government.

Regards

Tut

What importance of separating, the church was to be protected FROM the government, not separated from it.

jenjeru: I must question the basis of this entire thread. Your hypothesis is that people raised in the Roman Catholic church are more inlcined to leave the church of their upbringing than are people raised in other Christian denominations - meaning Protestants - but you base this solely on personal observation So I would ask you two questions:

1. Is you sample biased by where you happen to live? I would guess that if you live in a neighborhood with a large RC population you'll get different set of results that if you live in an area with few RC's.

2. How do you count Protestants who grew up in one denominaton but are now members of another? In your analysis do they count as having "left"? If not, then your sampling method is invalid. Take me for example: my parents both grew up as Methodists, but moved to a town town that had only one protestant church - it was New England Congregational, so if you weren't Roman Catholic or Jewish that's where you went, and that's the church I was raised in. Then I moved away and married a girl who is Episcopalean, and that's the church we have attended for 25 years and our kids grew up in. Meanwhile my parents moved to Florida and joined the local Presbyterian Church. So I ask - does this mean my family has "left" the church 4 times? That's certainly not how we feel. So how do you count me in your poll?

ebaines,

That is a very good point... allow me to clarify.

First, to be clear, I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, I attended Catholic school for many years along with most of my very large family, so for most of my life I was surrounded by a very small community with similar beliefs. It wasn't a necessarily bad or good experience, it was just all that I knew (even though outside of my Catholic community, the town in which I grew up was predominantly Protestant.)

I left the Catholic faith in what could probably be considered a fit of teenage angst, but it was mostly that in my heart I disagreed with many of the points that others have brought up in this thread.

So when I say "leaving" the faith, I mean faith completely as a result of overwhelming negative feelings towards the religion... not switching denominations (as in your example of Methodist to Presbyterian, etc.) or even religions (I know of many converts to Judaism and Islam as well).

Once I decided to be done with religion, I never thought that it would come up again until I went to the Vatican two years ago and it struck an odd chord with me so I started on a two-year long project to try and wrestle with my issues that just happen to stem from my Catholic upbringing. I have found that my blindness in simply rejecting faith is just as ignorant as blindly believing. (If you interested in that aspect, here is more about my project.. About Project Jerusalem (http://jenjeru.wordpress.com/about/))

I ask this question because through trying to wrestle with the implications of my upbringing and questioning others, I have found a common trend in Catholics later rejecting their faith. By sampling people, I am not merely referring to the area I grew up in, but wide surveys in various places of the United States as well as in Jerusalem (where I traveled three months ago in order to interview religious leaders of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism). I mentioned geography because as you said in your post, sometimes religious affiliation (or denomination affiliation) is based on geography rather that a conscious effort to join one specific religion.

I know what it was about Catholicism that turned me away, but I'm curious as to what it is for others, many of which have expressed their opinions to me over the course of my project.

What importance of seperating, the church was to be protected FROM the government, not seperated from it.

Hi Fr Chuck,

The separating of church and government was designed to highlight the distinction between secular matters and matters of faith. Government takes care of secular matters and the church takes care of religious matters. Such matters are accounted for in what is know as the social contract.

Thomas Hobbes in his, 'Leviathan' started the ball rolling. Basically Hobbes would say that it is irrelevant as to whether there is a Protestant monarch or a Catholic monarch. If the government forces everyone to be Protestant because that is what the monarch desires then so be it.
For Hobbes this is preferable to living in a state of total warfare where life is,"nasty, brutish and short".

The idea of social contract first came in when Hobbes claims that citizens should give up their freedoms, religious or otherwise and agree to obey the sovereign power.

Since Hobbes' time the social contract theory has been much refined and today religious freedoms are part of that contract.

The idea of separating church and state actually guarantees religious freedom. Not separating them actually takes away this freedom.

It is the opposite to what you would think.

Regards

Tut

Jesushelper76,
It is obvious to me that you do NOT well understand why the Church teaches and why it does as it does.
Priests DO have the authority from Jesus Himself to forgive sins. Like all else with The Church that is based on Holy Scripture.
Your mother COULD have remarried in The Church IF she had had her former marriage dissolved via an annulment.
I know because I've seen it done.
A marriage CAN take place outside the Church building.
My sister-in-law was married on a ranch by a Catholic Priest.
Permission to do that was obtained from the Bishop.
There are several very good reasons what a child must be prepared to receive Christ in the Eucharist.
One is that a person MUST be worthy to partake.
There is much more about all this regarding your post.
I suggest that you contact a good Catholic apologist who has the time to help you fully understand you CHRISTIAN CATHOLIC FAITH.
You are like many who leave The Church, they don't understand it and that all of Catholic teaching IS biblically based.
I'm a convert and needed to fully understand Catholicism before I would join it. That is why I say that anyone who fully understands The Catholic Church will never leave it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The idea of separating church and state actually guarantees religious freedom. Not separating them actually takes away this freedom.

No it doesn’t.

No it doesn’t.


I see... Would you like the state to decide on our religious practices?

TUT,
I don't think that Joe meant that.
Religious freedom is guaranteed by our constitution and separation of Church and state should not interfere with that.
It simply means that the state cannot have or promote a religion or religious beliefs.
Although there ARE some people who do want to abuse that and harm or hinder certain religious practices or beliefs,
Some want all religions to be abolished or stopped from practicing.
Those are the ultra radical secularists who insist that religion offends them.
They are not bothered by the fact that their attitude offends me and millions of other people.
Maybe we should sue them for offending us??
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Also there are many practices that do go against God, and Gods teaching.

I have been reading the bible and yes the whole bible many times over since the young age of 9 on my own.

I have been to many different churches.

You know what Gods love goes so much deeper.

I also noticed you fail to pick away the part of the answer about Catholics not allowing other denominations or even children take part in communion.

When Jesus would welcome everyone at his table that wants to come, but Catholics and other denominations goes against that very thought. Jesus said become like children they will be the first to enter the kingdom. Yet children are not welcomed to receive the host. Guess what that is wrong and not right and against the teachings of the bible.


Please do not underestimate my understanding of the catholic church. Considering I have been in a catholic church all my life.

You and many others can not rap around the idea that maybe all is not right. You know what, God would not really look down here and really think that an argument over such things is actually worth it do you.

In the greatest commandment Jesus left us is to LOVE one another. Not to make judgments on one another. That God is the only judge.

Now I will go on for some more examples.

Homosexuality, and Abortion which are one of the two biggest debates in any church.

Are we to judge somebody that is living the lifestyle as a homosexual, the answer is no. It is not up to us.

Are we to judge somebody who has an abortion. No we are not. It is not up to us.

Especially when the church catholic church had a situation where a nine year old got raped by her father and she ended up getting pregnant with twins. I think she ended up having an abortion. Does the church have a right to sit their and tell the mother and child that she is going to be condemned to hell for going through with the procedure. I think not.

I am against abortion, I do not believe in it, but every single person has to make up their own individual mind about what is right and wrong and God will judge their heart, not you or me.

As far as homosexuality is it right to judge no. What we are supposed to do, is show Gods love to one another. Not just because you agree with certain people, but also show love towards others that you might think is living the wrong way but we need to embrace each other with love no matter what are differences are.

No one should feel excluded from the church because of their sexual history because quite frankly everybody has sinned in one manner or another. None of us are perfect. None of us have a right to judge.

We can say we do not believe in this lifestyle, that we do not believe it is right. Same as abortion in my eyes can be considered murder, but how can you sit there and judge a 9 year old of murder when she was a victim herself.

Okay as far as my mother she should have been allowed to be married in the church anyway. She was legally divorced. She got remarried what some 20 years later.

How about my aunt that they did not want to baptize their child because the child was out of wedlock.

I will say it again. That people treat and follow around the pope like a star, like an idol. How much did God love his idols?

Priests and teachers and anyone can become an idol to somebody but we need to look at God. Within our spirit let God talk to our hearts and not have it dictated to us by any church.

ALL DENOMINATIONS OR CHRISTIAN CHURCHES OR RELIGIONS ARE NOT 100 PERCENT CORRECT IN ANYTHING. IT IS ALL MAN MADE.

Simple really.

Jesushelper76,
There are very good sound reason why other deniominations and children are not aloud to take communion and I DID mention that a person musst ne wee prepared to take it.
The reason is that the bible says that a person should NOT partake of the body and blood of Jesus if they are unworthy.
That is why The Church tries its best to be sure that a person who partakes is worthy and that they receive itin a worthy proper manner.
As I said before, everything The Church teaches and DOES IS based on Holy Scripture; EVERYTHING!!
Peace and kindness,
Fred

A Child is not worthy?? I think children are more worthy then adults to receive the host.

Nope not all scripture based. NO NOT EVERYTHING. Sorry but you need to understand the church, catholic church specifically does not have it right. All Right, and no it is not ALL scripture based.

If that was the case you would see ALL the children receive the host and other judgmental and no it all adults would have to take a back seat.

Is any of us worthy, Think not. See what I mean. Your arguments for, fall flat.

[QUOTE=arcura;2219145]TUT,
I don't think that Joe meant that.
Religious freedom is guaranteed by our constitution and separation of Church and state should not interfere with that.
It simply means that the state cannot have or promote a religion or religious beliefs.

Hi Fred,

I see what you are getting at now. Thanks for clearing that up.

Regards

Tut

Jesushelper, from what planet are you speaking of that all children are worthy? Have you hung around children lately? (You are talking to a sub teacher here.) It really depends on which child and most children behave greatly on how their parents raise them, the parent being the one that is responsible for their example.

By worthy in the Catholic Church, it means that they have been baptized and do not have the stain of mortal sin on the soul. This is what is meant by total communion with the Church. One is having a relationship with Christ, who is head of the Church, and therefore abides by what He has established. Once again, I say from my previous post, that if one does not want to follow the rules, why would one even want to stay in that religion? (I don't say this for you, just in general, as a theoretical question.)

Let's switch it around a bit and say that an outsider to the Catholic Faith (or to any religion) can not get offended by not being accepted (ie. Being able to receive Holy Communion), if that person does not accept the teachings anyway... either you are for or against. One could compare it to having to accept any code of conduct in the freemasons, boy scouts, military, you name it. You belong if you accept the teachings (rules, code, etc). Otherwise, why bother being in that group?


I have nothing against you, and love your name... this post is getting off topic, but maybe jenjuru will gain some perspective from it. I believe that we are opening up a whole new range of topics with these discussions.

Please re read my posts rosemcs.

A Child is not worthy??? I think children are more worthy then adults to receive the host.

Nope not all scripture based. NO NOT EVERYTHING. Sorry but you need to understand the church, catholic church specifically does not have it right. All Right, and no it is not ALL scripture based.

If that was the case you would see ALL the children receive the host and other judgmental and no it all adults would have to take a back seat.

Is any of us worthy, Think not. See what I mean. Your arguments for, fall flat.

It was in reference to this post.

Children can be more judgemental than adults and would not necessarily be first in line. It depends on the disposition of the soul.

There are too many topics to discuss and it should become another thread now...

Jesushelper76,'
Please think about that.
To be worthy of the Eucharist a person MUST understand what it is, what it does, and what it is meant for.
While young children can understand some things a sacrament such as the Eucharist is very complex.
I know that you do not believe it when I say that everything God's Holy Church does and teaches is based on the bible, but I KNOW that it is.
I studied that long and hard for many years and I was very hard to convince.
It took bible and Catholicism experts much effort to finally show that to me.
You can believe as you wish. That's one of the things that at this moment is still free to do.
And I will believe and I know no matter what even to my death if necessary.
I left behind some family members and many friends when I became a Catholic. It was hard to do.
But the change was well worth it for I am now very happy and comfortable with my Christianity.
I hope and PRAY that you are also or will become so.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I think many Christians miss the boat on many issues.

I am very comfortble in my beliefs. I have a very strong personal relationship between Myself and God.

Well lets get the bible out point for point. I am not talking about bits and pieces but the whole bible.

Just because you studied long and hard does not make you right over me.

Does not make your beliefs better then mine. Does not mean that everything your made to believe is right. Even if you think so.

I pray that Gods wisdom will show others true love and acceptance and what it truly means within your heart and soul to have a true relationship with God. One that is not developed by what other people tell you is right, but what your heart within and the spirit that God gave you to reveal what is true love.

Catholic Church is not Gods Holy Church. No one religion or denomination is 100 percent correct.

Sorry but I have pointed out many things. In the end, it is You and God you will have to answer to.

Just like I know within my spirit and relationship with God that I know what is true for my spirit in this life.

This will be an endless topic that went way off topic but I have not judged you at all, but share my personal spirit and what I feel is wrong in the church setting.

Take care of yourself,

Joe

What is it about Catholicism that turns so many away?

That was the question. I answered it. It should not have turned into debate but not surprised that it did.

It is not a thread about defending, or standing up for certain churches. It is about exactly what the question asked.

Jesushelper76,
You are very right.
Back to the topic.
Peace and kindness,
Fted

Yes I agree with that. The problem is that Pallen ignores or fails to see the importance of separating church and state. This is the basis of any liberal philosophy.

The problem is that if we reject Liberalism then we have very few alternatives other than some type of autocratic government.

Regards

Tut



Are you referring to Sarah Palin or someone else?

Jesushelper76,
You are right about the toopic.
What is "The Shack" about?
Fred

Are you referring to Sarah Palin or someone else?

Hi JudyKayTee,

Sorry. I better explain this a little better. I was actually referring to Dr. C Pallen, PhD.

Joe T put up a web address a few posts back. It was under the heading of, 'Liberalism is a Sin' . I was very critical of Pallen's thesis. One of my criticisms was that Pallen didn't address the distinction between church and state adequately.I found it incredulous that in his thesis the words,"social contract" did not get a mention.

Your 'Bill of Rights' is an example of a social contract. You and everyone else is guaranteed religious freedom. Also, the government cannot start up its own religion. In fact the government's role is to actively promote staying out of religion. On the other hand, it is quite acceptable for religious organizations to be politically active.

This is roughly what I mean by separation of church and state.

Regards

Tut

TUT317,
I believe that there can be no TRUE separation of Church and state simply because human beings run the government and each one has their indivduale beliefs.
To some extent each one of those folks work, act, and vote according to their beliefs.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

TUT317,
I believe that there can be no TRUE separation of Church and state simply because human beings run the government and each one has their indivduale beliefs.
To some extent each one of those folks work, act, and vote according to their beliefs.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Hi Fred,

Yes I agree, there is no clear cut distinction.

Regards

Tut

Jesushelper76,
You are right about the toopic.
What is "The Shack" about?
Fred
This is a topic for another thread Fred. Why don't you ask it?

I am currently working on an experimental documentary about religious upbringing and in connecting with others to explore why we do or do not question our faith, I've found that most of those who feel strongly against religion were raised Catholic. What is it about Catholicism that turns so many away? Is it the "fear and guilt" associated with Catholicism? Is it the rigid traditionalism or Catholic schooling?

In my case it was Catholic Schooling and the clergy. What I found in adult life was they had taught me about religion but had not introduced me to Christ. I am very against religion but not against Christianity which is a relationship between the believer and Jesus. Catholicism has introduced a lot of side issues into Christianity and produced a highly complex religion

The Catholic Churches all are Christ centered.
Every Mass service includes several readings from the holy bible including the gospels and the preaching is centered on the daily readings.
That's right there are services for the congregation every day of the week.
The Catholic Church promulgated the holy bible at the inspiration of the Holy Spirit for the world and uses it that way every day.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

In my case it was Catholic Schooling and the clergy. What I found in adult life was they had taught me about religion but had not introduced me to Christ. I am very against religion

That has to say more for the student then the master.

JoeT

JoeT,
Well said.
Good point made.
Fred

The Catholic Churches all are Christ centered.
Every Mass service includes several readings from the holy bible including the gospels and the preaching is centered on the daily readings.
That's right there are services for the congregation every day of the week.
The Catholic Church promulgated the holy bible at the inspiration of the Holy Spirit for the world and uses it that way every day.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred where do you get this stuff? The Catholic Church maintained it's services in Latin for centuries and prevented the Bible from being translated. They burned the Bible translators at the stake. They in fact denied access to the Scriptures for the ordinary person. You might want to say to us, they have changed but in reality they haven't.

That has to say more for the student then the master.

JoeT

So Joe you don't believe in the adage if the student doesn't learn the teacher hasn't taught. What I know, Joe, is you can't impart what you don't know yourself, so if the master doesn't know Christ, the student will not either, thus the great falling away. It is not the fault of those taught in Catholic schools, it is the fault of their teachers who will be those to whom Christ will say depart from me I never knew you

paraclete,
It is true that in the past certain members of The Church made some mistakes just as some in all churches make mistakes today as you and I sometimes do.
The stories about what The Church did with Holy Scripture are mostly un-true.
IF The Church had wanted to only it would have the bible today for, for for many years it was the only one who printed it.
I've know for years that you are very anti-Catholic so I think that you probably won't believe me or real authentic history on that.
Be that as it may be...
Peace and kindness,
Fred

First of all, Paraclete, for many years, most of the population was illiterate, and the Catholic monks diligently transcribed the Bible as their job. They kept the Bible available for many because of the copies they made. As the people began to become more literate, and the Divine Office was continually passed down through each generation, which contains the Bible passages all throughout it, there was more of a population that were then able to read the Bible.

"St Benedict founded his monastery at Montecassino, which included among the daily tasks prescribed for the monks, the transcription of works in Latin. These monasteries founded a tradition of literate scholarship which was carried through Benedictine monasteries during the whole course of the middle ages, and was particularly significant in re-establishing Latin literacy in the early middle ages."
Monastic Scribes (http://medievalwriting.50megs.com/author/monasticscribe.htm)

So, in a great sense, the Bible was passed down because of these monks. These Catholic monks, in return, helped cultivate university--and becoming literate.

Secondly, the Mass is no longer in Latin everywhere. If one goes to a Latin Mass and feels that it should be in his own tongue, all one has to do is pick up the Missal in the pew and read the translation. The Latin language is so much richer than the English language, it is incredible. In no way does the Catholic Church want to lose or deny this jewel, even as Pope Benedict has invited the priests to bring it back to the parish if they wish.

Latin is still widely used by many people who wish to learn a foreign language, because so many languages (especially the romance languages) have their roots in it. It is a core class for the seminarian. Latin is the heart of the Catholic Church as it is for much of the world.

I invite you to study the countless Catholics who were tortured, burned, eaten by lions, shot, hung, hit by arrows, and had their head chopped off, just because they believed in God. These martyers died to preserve this faith that had been handed down to them.

Did you study the children saints when you were a child? Did the story of St. Agnes, a small girl, who refused to give up her faith to the hands of the king touch you at all? Her head was chopped off. What about the little boy, St. Tarcisius who was stoned for trying to carry Holy Communion to inmates? And 12 yr. old St. Maria Goretti, who refused to give up her virginity, and was killed at the hand of her rapist, whom she later forgave? It is not completely the teacher's responsibility to change a heart. It is knowledge, wisdom, and understanding, grace given by God, and an open heart.

So Joe you don't believe in the adage if the student doesn't learn the teacher hasn't taught. What I know, Joe, is you can't impart what you don't know yourself, so if the master doesn't know Christ, the student will not either, thus the great falling away. It is not the fault of those taught in Catholic schools, it is the fault of their teachers who will be those to whom Christ will say depart from me I never knew you

Actually I don’t; how is it that the student can judge whether the master ‘doesn’t know Christ’ when still a student and didn’t know Christ himself?

My early experience was nearly void of teachers and God, yet I found God’s Truth, hope, and love in the Catholic Church - on my own (well not exactly – I probably had an army of guardian angels.) I never finished high school for a verity of reasons (most of which were my own fault). Disadvantaged in my early 20’s I was still able to read the early fathers, the Bible to discern for myself Catholicism was true – it doesn’t take a great intellect. How is it that I, having no teachers, a functional illiterate found the truth in her, and you having teachers didn’t?

Needn’t find reason to blame the Catholic Church in order to turn your back on her. After all, she's just a pile of bricks isn't she? People walk away all the time, and when some have a change mind they're surprised to find the door open. It’s an attraction similar to iron caught in a strong magnetic field – once that threshold is crossed, once the iron gets too close it can’t resist the pull. When you stop spiting on her and start being just to her, soon after, you’ve arrived at that threshold, she becomes irresistible. You tell me; it just seems to me, that at some time you’ve got to run out of spittle.

JoeT

paraclete,
It is true that in the past certain members of The Church made some mistakes just as some in all churches make mistakes today as you and I sometimes do.
The stories about what The Church did with Holy Scripture are mostly un-true.
IF The Church had wanted to only it would have the bible today for, for for many years it was the only one who printed it.
I've know for years that you are very anti-Catholic so I think that you probably wont believe me or real authentic history on that.
Be that as it may be...
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred very anti-catholic isn't how I would describe myself because I hold the same views about certain non-catholic organisations. How do you think it is, Fred, to find yourself deceived as a child into following a religion instead of christ. You can decieve yourself all you want but the history of the Catholic church for centuries was very murky. Today we condemn Muslims who go on jihad but in the middle ages that is exactly what catholics did, slaughtering even their fellow christians with the full sanction and blessing of the Church. You cannot white wash church history Fred and what the church leadership has done, and even still does, in white washing the vile acts of priests and clerics.' WHITED SEPTLECURES FULL OF DEAD MEN'S BONES ALL OF THEM

I stand for truth Fred, I have known some very good catholic people but only a few hundred yards from my present home vile acts were perpretrated by catholic clergy. What excuse would you like to make for these Fred? People who dragged Jesus name through the mud. Were they demon possessed?

Actually I don’t; how is it that the student can judge whether or not the master ‘doesn’t know Christ’ when still a student and didn’t know Christ himself?

My early experience was nearly void of teachers and God, yet I found God’s Truth, hope, and love in the Catholic Church - on my own (well not exactly – I probably had an army of guardian angels.) I never finished high school for a verity of reasons (most of which were my own fault). Disadvantaged in my early 20’s I was still able to read the early fathers, the Bible to discern for myself Catholicism was true – it doesn’t take a great intellect. How is it that I, having no teachers, a functional illiterate found the truth in her, and you having teachers didn’t?

Needn’t find reason to blame the Catholic Church in order to turn your back on her. After all, she's just a pile of bricks isn't she? People walk away all the time, and when some have a change mind they're surprised to find the door open. It’s an attraction similar to iron caught in a strong magnetic field – once that threshold is crossed, once the iron gets too close it can’t resist the pull. When you stop spiting on her and start being just to her, soon after, you’ve arrived at that threshold, she becomes irresistible. You tell me; it just seems to me, that at some time you’ve got to run out of spittle.

JoeT

Joe any time I tried to return to the RCC I found the door closed

…the history of the Catholic Church for centuries was very murky. Today we condemn Muslims who go on jihad but in the middle ages that is exactly what Catholics did, slaughtering even their fellow Christians with the full sanction and blessing of the Church. You cannot white wash church history Fred and what the church leadership has done, and even still does, in white washing the vile acts of priests and clerics.' WHITED SEPTLECURES [Sepulchre ?] FULL OF DEAD MEN'S BONES ALL OF THEM

I stand for truth…


So, when are we going to hear this Truth? This sample doesn't seem to exhibit any.



Joe any time I tried to return to the RCC I found the door closed.


This would be different from most experiences. Either way, maybe it was that suitcase full of snakes like those above that scared them?


If there is a next time, maybe try pulling on the door, instead of putting your shoulder against like you're going to push the wall over. Most exterior doors open outward.

JoeT

[QUOTE=Comments on this post
rosemcs agrees : many saints were illiterate or children themselves, and yet they understood their faith
Give yours Agree Disagree *Required*
[/QUOTE]



We agree on most everything else but we disagree on this point - :)

The fact that "saints" were illiterate or children yet "understood" their faith is a compelling argument AGAINST religion, at least in my eyes.

So, when are we going to hear this Truth? This sample doesn’t seem to exhibit any.





This would be different from most experiences. Either way, maybe it was that suitcase full of snakes like those above that scared them?


If there is a next time, maybe try to pulling on the door, instead of putting your shoulder against like you’re going to push the wall over. Most exterior doors open outward.

JoeT

Joe you miss the point entirely

paraclete,
You SEEM to be very mixed up about Catholicism.
The Catholic faith and teachings are all the religion of Christianity.
I think you have ignored some of what rosemecs and Joe mentioned in their posts on this.
The Catholic Church is the foundation of today's Christianity and all other denominations have their basic beginning root therein.
The Church is still growing with over 1 billion members world wide and as Jesus said the gates hell will not prevail against it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

paraclete,
You SEEM to be very mixed up about Catholicism.
The Catholic faith and teachings are all the religion of Christianity.UH Fred are you actually saying what I think you are saying/ Thyat the Catholic Chuirch is the basis for ALL other churches?
I think you have ignored some of what rosemecs and Joe mentioned in their posts on this.
The Catholic Church is the foundation of today's Christianity and all other denominations have their basic beginning root therein.I cannot believe you actually believe this statement! GOD THROUGH HIS SON JESUS IS THE ROOT AND FOUNDATION OF CHRISTIANITY. NOT THE RCC!!!!!!!
The Church is still growing with over 1 billion members world wide and as Jesus said the gates hell will not prevail against it.UHHHH so what! The muslum faith is the fastest growing religion in the world right now. So what is your point except to attempt to make your brand of religion look better than all others?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred, please go back and rewrite your post to reflect your actual true beliefs. Or did you already do that?

Joe you miss the point entirely

In that case I’ll leave it at that.

JoeT

450donn,
I meant what I said,, Peter is the rock on which Jesus said he would build His Church and Peter was the first leader of The Church and therefore the foundation of Christianity as the bible says. The Church IS the source and foundation of the truth.
Yes all the other denominations do have roots that go back to the very first Christian Church that is a historical fact.
The point I was making about Church growth is that in spite of all the efforts today and over the centuries The Church is still strong and growing.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

paraclete,
You SEEM to be very mixed up about Catholicism.
The Catholic faith and teachings are all the religion of Christianity.
I think you have ignored some of what rosemecs and Joe mentioned in their posts on this.
The Catholic Church is the foundation of today's Christianity and all other denominations have their basic beginning root therein.
The Church is still growing with over 1 billion members world wide and as Jesus said the gates hell will not prevail against it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred, I'm not mixed up about Catholicism.
Catholicism is a religion based on Christianity. There are other expressions of Christianity which are not catholicism
Catholicism has added to Christianity taking the foundation laid by Christ and adding a lot of dogma which does not enhance the Christian experience.
The Church that is growing today is Christianity, not catholicism.

You see Fred I'm not interested in being part of a religion, but in being part of a relationship with Christ

450donn,
I meant what I said,,,, Peter is the rock on which Jesus said he would build His Church and Peter was the first leader of The Church and therefore the foundation of Christianity as the bible says. The Church IS the source and foundation of the truth.
Yes all the other denominations do have roots that go back to the very first Christian Church that is a historical fact.
The point I was making about Church growth is that in spite of all the efforts today and over the centuries The Church is still strong and growing.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred,I am going to hold your feet to the fire. Please give scripture references if you choose to "quote" or use what you propose to be quotes from the word.
It has been pointed out numerous times before, Peter did NOT start any churches. He worked within the existing Jewish system. By building Jesus was making reference to his teachings being the foundation not a "church" Also when did the RCC start? Certainly not in within a few hundred years of Jesus life. So how can you continue to make such outlandish claims?

Fred,I am going to hold your feet to the fire. Please give scripture references if you choose to "quote" or use what you propose to be quotes from the word.
It has been pointed out numerous times before, Peter did NOT start any churches. He worked within the existing Jewish system. By building Jesus was making reference to his teachings being the foundation not a "church" Also when did the RCC start? Certainly not in within a few hundred years of Jesus life. So how can you continue to make such outlandish claims ??

Donn he makes the claims because he has been indoctrinated by the RCC, For some reason the RCC have to believe they are the only valid expression of Christianity despite recent reforms. You find such ideas in other churches too

Donn he makes the claims because he has been indoctrinated by the RCC, For some reason the RCC have to believe they are the only valid expression of Christianity despite recent reforms. You find such ideas in other churches too

And how does the RCC 'indoctrinate'?

What reforms? I’m unaware of any ‘reforms’ that aren’t ‘deformed’.

The 'ideas' you speak of are rooted in Christ, Scripture, Tradition, Church, Bishops, Councils, Popes, and miracles. Abandon any one of these and you’ve abandon them all. All of these focus on our love for Christ, Christ’s word and Christ’s commandments. Therefore, are you suggesting that Catholics should abandon Christ?

JoeT

And how does the RCC 'indoctrinate'?

What reforms? I’m unaware of any ‘reforms’ that aren’t ‘deformed’.

The 'ideas' you speak of are rooted in Christ, Scripture, Tradition, Church, Bishops, Councils, Popes, and miracles. Abandon any one of these and you’ve abandon them all. All of these focus on our love for Christ, Christ’s word and Christ’s commandments. Therefore, are you suggesting that Catholics should abandon Christ?

JoeT

OK, so you are steeped in tradition that is written by MAN! What does these mortals that you are alluding to have to do with the true, inspired word of GOD? Sounds to me like you are trying to make them gods too.

OK, so you are steeped in tradition that is written by MAN! What does these mortals that you are alluding to have to do with the true, inspired word of GOD? Sounds to me like you are trying to make them gods too.

But what of traditions of Christ? "And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the tradition which they have received of us." 2Thessalonians 3:6

What of the Tradition that the Apostles followed? "And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, and in prayers. Acts of the Apostles 2:42

It would seem a closer look at 'traditions' is in order.

JoeT

paraclete ,
As I said and still stand by, what the RCC teaches and stands for is all bible based.
I KNOW that, I studied it and I learned the truth about the Catholic Church.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

OH I just love it when you quote scripture totally out of context.
The passage you quoted in 2 TH is a warning against idleness
And the one in Acts is talking about the foundational content of the believers spiritual growth and maturity was the scriptures.

paraclete ,
As I said and still stand by, what the RCC teaches and stands for is all bible based.
I KNOW that, I studied it and I learned the truth about the Catholic Church.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Yes Fred, we all understand that you have been brainwashed. But sure is fun to dispel all your thoughts all the time.

450donn,
OK here it is...
Matthew chapter 16, 17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to you: That you are Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
Notice that Jesus was speaking directly to Peter and about Peter and He gave the keys to heaven to Peter which made Peter King Jesus' Prime Minister here on earth.
History and the bible tell us that Peter moved to Rome and the Church headquarters was then in Rome and has been ever since.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

450donn,
What reason do you have to accuse me of being brain washed?
NONE JUSTIFIED...
I used the Holy Bible.
If you think that is brain washing, that is your opinion, but not that of billions of other Christians.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Whatever context they are in, it still shows that, as in the Old Testament traditions, we now follow a New Testament Tradition, instituted by Christ. These verses speak directly to the existence of 'Tradition'. They show the existence of a Christ instituted and centered Tradition regardless of the context. Then what do we make of the verse in Acts? Just ignore it and it'll fade from memory? But, not fitting the mold of 'no tradition', what of other verses that point to Tradition in Christ through the Apostles, ignore them too?


“And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the tradition which they have received of us." 2Thessalonians 3:6


"And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, and in prayers. Acts of the Apostles 2:42


JoeT

JoeT,
As I have pointed said several times, Catholic teachings and beliefs are all based on Holy Scripture.
There is NO getting around that fact.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Yes Fred, we all understand that you have been brainwashed. But sure is fun to dispel all your thoughts all the time.

Do not insult people of any religion. He has a right to make his point, just as you do yours. Post your answers in a professional way or get off this post. Go tell some other religion they have been brainwashed and see where it will get you. You can respond in a mature way.

And how does the RCC 'indoctrinate'?

What reforms? I’m unaware of any ‘reforms’ that aren’t ‘deformed’.

The 'ideas' you speak of are rooted in Christ, Scripture, Tradition, Church, Bishops, Councils, Popes, and miracles. Abandon any one of these and you’ve abandon them all. All of these focus on our love for Christ, Christ’s word and Christ’s commandments. Therefore, are you suggesting that Catholics should abandon Christ?

JoeT

More indoctrination Joe, how are popes. Councils, tradition rooted in Christ?

Christ spoke against tradition, he spoke against the nicolatians. I don't need a Pope, I don't need your traditions and I don't need your councils. Christ is the head of every man, that is Scripture, we are all competent ministers of the new covenant, that is Scripture, a Bishop is a husband of one wife, that is Scripture. I'm suggesting Catholics should abandon the traditions of men and follow Christ

rosemcs,
Thanks much.
You made your point quite well.
You'll note that I responded by saying my education came from Holy Scripture.
Have not been brain-washed.
Thanks again,
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Inhisservice, the Catholic Church is based on Scripture and Tradition. The Tradition of the apostles and the first generation of those that practiced what Jesus taught after His departure on earth.

I agree in several points that Paraclete has made, tried rating but the rating disappeared for some reason. The question is for those who feel Catholicism has turned so many away and why?

This thread is not about defending Catholicism to a fault this thread is for peoples opinions on why it has turned so many away and for people to share their stories.

This thread has turned into a battle between different groups of people. The people that think they are right and others that do not even want to look at the side of the person who speaks up about what they think about Catholicism.

This thread is not meant to be an argues between two beliefs or different beliefs but for people who have had experiences in Catholicism and what drives people away from the church.

So Back to the original question please.

Jesushelper, from what planet are you speaking of that all children are worthy? Have you hung around children lately? (You are talking to a sub teacher here.) It really depends on which child and most children behave greatly on how their parents raise them, the parent being the one that is responsible for their example.

By worthy in the Catholic Church, it means that they have been baptized and do not have the stain of mortal sin on the soul. This is what is meant by total communion with the Church. One is having a relationship with Christ, who is head of the Church, and therefore abides by what He has established. Once again, I say from my previous post, that if one does not want to follow the rules, why would one even want to stay in that religion? (I don't say this for you, just in general, as a theoretical question.)

Let's switch it around a bit and say that an outsider to the Catholic Faith (or to any religion) can not get offended by not being accepted (ie. being able to receive Holy Communion), if that person does not accept the teachings anyway...either you are for or against. One could compare it to having to accept any code of conduct in the freemasons, boy scouts, military, you name it. You belong if you accept the teachings (rules, code, etc). Otherwise, why bother being in that group?


I have nothing against you, and love your name...this post is getting off topic, but maybe jenjuru will gain some perspective from it. I believe that we are opening up a whole new range of topics with these discussions.

You trying to be holier then thou in your posts about respect with other people yet, you state my opinions and thoughts are what again?
Things and posts and other peoples thoughts have been getting twisted a lot here and taking out of context. Not just specifically you but others and starting to get tired of it.

>Thread Closed<
As it has degenerated.