Acts 19:1-2
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
(KJV)

They are called "disciples" so they knew about Jesus, but apparently had little information beyond that.

Paul allows that they were believers as he uses the term "since ye believed".

He then asks if they had received the Holy Ghost, showing that he believed that receiving the Holy Ghost was the norm for believers.

In this country today, none of the denominations that I know of teach their people that they need to be baptised in/with the Holy Ghost other than the pentecostal groups, and the percentage of their people who receive the Holy Ghost is pitifully low.

So, have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?

Why not?

Do you even believe that such a thing is possible?

Acts 19:1-2
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
(KJV)

They are called "disciples" so they knew about Jesus, but apparently had little information beyond that.

Paul allows that they were believers as he uses the term "since ye believed".

He then asks if they had received the Holy Ghost, showing that he believed that receiving the Holy Ghost was the norm for believers.

In this country today, none of the denominations that I know of teach their people that they need to be baptised in/with the Holy Ghost other than the pentecostal groups, and the percentage of their people who receive the Holy Ghost is pitifully low.

So, have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?

Why not?

Do you even believe that such a thing is possible?

Yes I have received but I was not told such things were possible when I was young and educated by a traditional church. Traditional denominations don't speak of such things but once you have received there is no going back, you have truly become renewed

galveston - it's an interesting question... I guess my question to you is how do you know objectively that you have received the Holy Spirit? I mean, I could tell you that I have and you could tell me that you have... but how would we definitively know if we did?

I'm asking a serious question, not in jest.

Thanks.

galveston - it's an interesting question...I guess my question to you is how do you know objectively that you have received the Holy Spirit? I mean, I could tell you that I have and you could tell me that you have...but how would we definitively know if we did?

I'm asking a serious question, not in jest.

thanks.Yea, I'd like to know this as well.

To be frank and honest, I don't believe anyone that does has any doubt, it is not something you can show a tag to someone else, but the felling is so overpowing I dobut it would be missed

For example?

galveston - it's an interesting question...I guess my question to you is how do you know objectively that you have received the Holy Spirit? I mean, I could tell you that I have and you could tell me that you have...but how would we definitively know if we did?

I'm asking a serious question, not in jest.

thanks.

Since this is a serious question the serious answer is the Gifts of the Spirit becoming manifest in your life. Speaking in tongues is usually the initial evidence but the ability to prophecy, to heal, to perform acts of faith, all these and more are explained in Scripture. For me it started with tongues totally unexpectedly but moved on to faith and healing, but your whole view changes you understand the Scriptures better. I would not lie about such matters and I don't expect you would either, however we are told to test every spirit so you will be brought undone if you lie, I have written a book about my experiences in revival and as a spirit filled Christian. I would have had no motivation to do this if it were not so.

Does it mean that each believer who have received the "Spirit" will speak in tongues,heal and have ability to prophecy?

If a believer does not show these special abilities, does this mean that person is not a true believer?



.

If a believer does not show these special abilities, does this mean that person is not a true believer?
.

The answer to the above question is no.

There are at least two different “baptisms” referred to in relation to the Holy Ghost (or Spirit)

1 Cor 12:13
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
(KJV)

Rom 8:9
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
(KJV)

So from these we see that the repentant sinner is the candidate, the body of Christ is the medium, and the Holy Spirit is the one doing the baptizing.

But here is something else:

Matt 3:11
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
(KJV)

In this instance, the saved believer is the candidate, the Holy Ghost is the medium, and Jesus Christ does the baptizing.

In the Book of Acts, the effect of this baptism was immediate and observable. They spoke in languages they had never learned, just as the 120 did on the day of Pentecost. (The fire seen in Acts 2:3 is not mentioned as being repeated)

The gifts of the Holy Spirit listed in 1 Corinthians, vs 8-10 are not the baptism of the Holy Ghost, but are made available to the believer because he has been baptized in/with the Holy Ghost.

Clete gave a good practical explanation of this.

So it follows that very few people in the world have "received".

So it follows that very few people in the world have "received".

What sucks about the whole deal is that I believe in Christ and follow his teachings and I haven't spoken in tongues, prophesied, healed, or performed acts of faith.

I'm definitely screwed, I think, because even though I sincerely believe Jesus is the Christ, the Scriptures are the word of God, and that eternal life can only come as a gift from God, none of those things have ever happened in my life.

I just submitted my resignation for membership from my church because I don't want to be a phony anymore.

What sucks about the whole deal is that I believe in Christ and follow his teachings and I haven't spoken in tongues, prophesied, healed, or performed acts of faith.

I'm definitely screwed, I think, because even though I sincerely believe Jesus is the Christ, the Scriptures are the word of God, and that eternal life can only come as a gift from God, none of those things have ever happened in my life.

I just submitted my resignation for membership from my church because I don't want to be a phony anymore.

Well, depending on what you are a member of, I hope you are only jesting.

What I am showing is not denominational teaching, it is Biblical teaching. Every born-again Christian is a candidate for the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, which opens the doors to a greatly enlarged Christian experience.

You only have to believe it is available to YOU, and ask seriously and persistently. (It helps to be in the company of others who also believe that it is available):)

Does it mean that each believer who have received the "Spirit" will speak in tongues,heal and have ability to prophecy?

If a believer does not show these special abilities, does this mean that person is not a true believer?



.

I understand you are not a Christian so the simple explanation is that there appears to be three stages which could be described as born again(baptised in water), baptised in the Spirit, and baptised with fire. These stages are mentioned in Matthew 3.11 "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire".


So when a person truly believes they become born again. When they earnestly seek the gifts of the Spirit and a deeper relationship with God they become baptised in the Spirit and when they further press in they become baptised with fire.

What sucks about the whole deal is that I believe in Christ and follow his teachings and I haven't spoken in tongues, prophesied, healed, or performed acts of faith.

I'm definitely screwed, I think, because even though I sincerely believe Jesus is the Christ, the Scriptures are the word of God, and that eternal life can only come as a gift from God, none of those things have ever happened in my life.

I just submitted my resignation for membership from my church because I don't want to be a phony anymore.

Jake this isn't automatic it is about expectation and pressing into God, wanting a deeper relationship with Jesus and being involved. He is the rewarder of those who earnestly seek him. Now if you haven't been taugh these things then you might feel a little cheated, but forgive, because if you carry resentment it can't happen for you, then start to study the Scriptures and spend time in prayer. Remember this isn't about you, but about spreading the Gospel and coming to maturity as a Christian.

I know that for a while after I first spoke in tongues I would think "how does this work" but it becomes second nature when you exercise the gift and then the other things are added as the opportunity presents itself and you step out and pray for others

So it follows that very few people in the world have "received".

We don't know how many people have received, we know that some historical Christian figures like Wesley and Booth were baptised in the Spirit and of course the evangelists of the twentieth century. I have met people in many denominations including Catholic and Anglican persuasions as well as Pentecostal who are baptised in the Spirit so we know that there are a large number of charismatics but what percentage of Christians we do not know. These Giftings don't appear to manifest among non-believers so you are correct in assuming there are not "large" numbers in the world. This does not invalidate the experience since there are not large numbers of rich people either. What we do know is the number is growing just as the numbers of Christians are growing.

galveston, I received the filling of the Holy Spirit in 1982. We were and
Still attend a nondenonmination church. My husband and I was taught
About tongues by members of the church, they did not use tongues
In the Sunday church services. At that time we knew very little about
Tongues and it could have frighten us if it was in the church service.
Paul wrote in 1Cor.14:40 "Let all things be done decently and in order".
We were hungering and thirsting for the Lord and His teaching and
That is what we got. We grow spiritually and came to the time of understanding when we learned about tongues. The direction of tongues
Is to God. [1Cor.14:2] The purpose of tongues is to strengthen the inner man. [1Cor.14:4.] The effect of tongues is to build our faith [Jude 29]. Praying in the Spirit is an invaluable weapon in the spirtual arsenal
God has given us. I pray in the Spirit for faith and to be edified.
It is a tool available for me and you. I have grown in wisdom, knowledge,
And understanding in God's Word. Tongues has been a blessing
To me. I believe tongues is a great help in living in the Spirit.
Gifts are given by the Spirit, we are energized, and have the gifts of
Miracles, the gift of healing and more. I love the Lord and my main
Reason for living is to serve Him.
This is nothing to be a shamed of or embarrassed about. It is all biblical,
You better believe it.

Love and Blessings, Maggie 3

Maggie,

I'm sure you know by now that the Holy Spirit baptism is far more that the ability to speak with tongues, as you said as much in your post.

I receive that experience in 1953.

Here's a Scripture for our other readers:

John 16:13-14
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
(KJV)

Maranatha

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.Is that even English? It really does not make any sense.

Is that even English? It really does not make any sense.

It makes perfect sense to me.

Here's another one you won't understand either:

Rom 8:7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(KJV)

It makes perfect sense to me.

Here's another one you won't understand either:

Rom 8:7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(KJV)All right, I'm up for it - explain then both to me.

Amen galveston, It is the greatest thing that has ever happen to me,
Being in the spirit of the Lord.
Neselkarma, get an easy reading bible
And take a look at what you are missing.
"Call on Me, and I'll show you things
you never would have imagined"
Says the Lord, Jer.33:3

Maggie 3

If I were the moderator, I'd shut this thread down.

Galveston, I don't mean any disrespect but it seems from the onset that you've had an axe to grind with somebody... or at least you seem generally miffed.

I suppose that I'm bothering to say something here because I can already see that this post is going absolutely nowhere and you clearly have a strong opinion about this subject already so it's clear that you won't be moved. But where is your humility, man? Take a step back for a minute and evaluate what your real motivation was for posting this because it just doesn't seem genuine.

Respectfully.

Alright, I'm up for it - explain then both to me.

I will make the attempt. Will you attempt to understand?

John 16:13
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
(KJV)

The Spirit of truth is the Holy Ghost (or Spirit, the same meaning) He came to the Church as recorded in Acts 2:4, and He shows us what truth is. He teaches us what Christ brought to us.

Rom 8:7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(KJV)

"Carnal" simply means "natural". The mind we were born with. If we only accept what our physical senses tell us, we will never make the connection with God. Since there is no connection, it can't help but be a law-breaker. That is why the "new birth" is necessary.

If I were the moderator, I'd shut this thread down.

Galveston, I don't mean any disrespect but it seems from the onset that you've had an axe to grind with somebody...or at least you seem generally miffed.

I suppose that I'm bothering to say something here because I can already see that this post is going absolutely nowhere and you clearly have a strong opinion about this subject already so it's clear that you won't be moved. But where is your humility, man? Take a step back for a minute and evaluate what your real motivation was for posting this because it just doesn't seem genuine.

Respectfully.

Jake, I apologize if I have given you this impression.

My reason for posting the question in the first place is to try to make more people aware of the blessings that come with the Baptism in/of the Holy Spirit. Blessings that are just not available without this experience.

So many Christians live really inconsistent lives. They are ineffective witnesses, they are too often defeated, they do not realize who they are in Christ, or what their purpose is in relation to Christ.

The Holy Spirit gives power to LIVE as God wants us to.

I have no axe to grind, but I'm not PC either.

They are ineffective witnesses
So how do you witness now to be effective? If you are friends with an agnostic person, what would you say and do?

But where is your humility, man?
Egocentric is what I am reading. Hmmmm...

I will make the attempt. Will you attempt to understand?

John 16:13
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
(KJV)

The Spirit of truth is the Holy Ghost (or Spirit, the same meaning) He came to the Church as recorded in Acts 2:4, and He shows us what truth is. He teaches us what Christ brought to us.

How can that be since this "spirit" does not speak of himself (what does that mean?) but whatsoever he hears he speaks - that doesn't make any sense at all. I assume "shew" is supposed to be "show"? Then that is saying that the person has the power to see the future - this I do not believe since there is no one person that has ever done that.

Rom 8:7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(KJV)

"Carnal" simply means "natural". The mind we were born with. If we only accept what our physical senses tell us, we will never make the connection with God. Since there is no connection, it can't help but be a law-breaker. That is why the "new birth" is necessary.

Well that's not what the normal usage of carnal is (hint (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/carnal): relating to or given to crude bodily pleasures and appetites; marked by sexuality; bodily, corporeal; temporal; worldly). So the mind we were born with is an enemy to god? How does that make sense? Why would a god do that? I have no connection to your god and yet I don't break the law.

Egocentric is what I am reading. Hmmmm....

So now I get a free phycoanalisis? Do I have to come to your office, or can you do it online?:D

So how do you witness now to be effective? If you are friends with an agnostic person, what would you say and do?

Pretty much what I have been doing all along; share the Truth. Jesus is Truth personified.

If that agnostic were in close enough proximity, I would introduce him/her to people who have been filled with the Holy Ghost and/or have been healed by the power of God through the Name of Jesus Christ.

Remember Paul's words to the Corinthians:

1 Cor 2:4-5
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
(KJV)

He wasn't relying on his intellect or some ritual.

Pretty much what I have been doing all along; share the Truth. Jesus is Truth personified.
How would you start? How would you present it?

What if the person is a stranger?

I will make the attempt. Will you attempt to understand?

John 16:13
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
(KJV)

The Spirit of truth is the Holy Ghost (or Spirit, the same meaning) He came to the Church as recorded in Acts 2:4, and He shows us what truth is. He teaches us what Christ brought to us.

How can that be since this "spirit" does not speak of himself (what does that mean?) but whatsoever he hears he speaks - that doesn't make any sense at all. I assume "shew" is supposed to be "show"? Then that is saying that the person has the power to see the future - this I do not believe since there is no one person that has ever done that.

The Holy Spirit promotes Christ, not Himself.

(You know, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost) Whatever the Father wants to say, He does it through the Holy Ghost.

You apparently have never done any research into prophecy and its fulfillment, otherwise you would know that the Holy Spirit DOES know the future and at times has revealed it to man.

Rom 8:7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(KJV)

"Carnal" simply means "natural". The mind we were born with. If we only accept what our physical senses tell us, we will never make the connection with God. Since there is no connection, it can't help but be a law-breaker. That is why the "new birth" is necessary.

Well that's not what the normal usage of carnal is (hint (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/carnal): relating to or given to crude bodily pleasures and appetites; marked by sexuality; bodily, corporeal; temporal; worldly). So the mind we were born with is an enemy to god? How does that make sense? Why would a god do that? I have no connection to your god and yet I don't break the law.

The New Testament was written in Greek, and to get the meaning of a word you need to use a Greek/English dictionary, but one that goes back to the era in which the verse was written. The meaning may not always be the same as it is in current usage. However, even in the sense that you use it, the meaning is still "fleshly".

God did not create man in a fallen or sinful state. That was man's decision, and we have been living with it ever since.

You may not break the moral law, but if you do not love God, you have broken the whole law, because that is the first commandment given to Israel, and restated by Jesus.

Matt 22:38-40
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
(KJV)

I did receive the Holy spirit and I base this on :

"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory." (Ephesians 1:13)


I was SEALED the instant I believed. Clear as crystal.

I was SEALED the instant I believed.
What does this mean?

I did recieve the Holy spirit and I base this on :

"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory." (Ephesians 1:13)


I was SEALED the instant I believed. Clear as crystal.

True, Classy, and I don't doubt it for a moment.

But being sealed is not the same thing as being baptized. There is more for you if you want it.

Gal,

I Have it all!! I can speak in tongues too but sometimes I do question if it just me... does that make sense?

Wondergirl,

It means when I believed what Christ did for me at the Christ... HE sealed me with the HOLY SPIRIT. The apostle Paul said it... not me.

wondergirl,

It means when I believed what Christ did for me at the Christ
What did Christ do at the Christ?

WG,

Typo... it means I believe what Christ did for me at the CROSS... sorry...

WG,

Typo....it means i believe what Christ did for me at the CROSS....sorry .....
That's true of all believers. But sealed into what?

Sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise the second that I believed according to the Bible.

Sealed,sanctified,saved. Pick the word that fits best.

WG if you have to ask you probably are not.
Sealed,sanctified,saved. pick the word that fits best.
Lutherans do not use the word "sealed." And thank you for your confidence.

First, sorry for being judgmental. That was wrong.
Now I find it interesting that you are saying that Lutherans ignore the whole bible?
How about Ephesians 1;13?
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed you were marked in him with a seal, (sealed) the promised Holy Spirit.

First, sorry for being judgmental. That was wrong.
Yeah, like, unChristian?

Now I find it interesting that you are saying that Lutherans ignore the whole bible?
The whole Bible? (What are you smokin', bro?)

I suspect Lutherans don't use the word "sealed" as part of their doctrine because "sealed" implies that once the Holy Spirit works faith in a person, that person is saved forever, no matter what happens or what he does. Lutherans don't believe that. They believe that any Christian who turns his back on Christ and the Gospel is damned. (Of course, they also believe he can repent of this and again be counted as saved. Only God knows the human heart and will judge accordingly.)

Did you not say in your post above "Lutherans do not use the word "sealed."
So the word is in the bible many many times, so conclusion Lutherns do not believe in the Whole bible. Right or were you mistaken in what you were trying to say?

"yeah, like, unChristian?"
Now who is being judgmental?

Did you not say in your post above "Lutherans do not use the word "sealed."
So the word is in the bible many many times, so conclusion Lutherns do not believe in the Whole bible. Right or were you mistaken in what you were trying to say?
Your logic is faulty. I explained why Lutherans do not use the word "sealed" in doctrine and in creeds (because it is too easily misunderstood to mean "once saved, always saved" which Lutherans do NOT believe). It does not follow that Lutherans do not believe "the whole Bible" (maybe we should talk about that too, what that means).

now who is being judgmental?
Not I. I was searching for a synonym. Note my question mark.

So, again, by not using a word are you deleting it from the bible or are you simply ignoring the word and it's use in the bible? Either way then you are not understanding the whole word if your denomination chooses to ignore or not use a word? Please bear with me, I am trying to understand how anyone or any denomination can simply not use a word that is in the bible because it does not align with their doctrine.

So, again, by not using a word are you deleting it from the bible or are you simply ignoring the word and it's use in the bible? Either way then you are not understanding the whole word if your denomination chooses to ignore or not use a word? Please bear with me, I am trying to understand how anyone or any denomination can simply not use a word that is in the bible because it does not align with their doctrine.
I said Lutherans do not use it doctrinally with the meaning I gave you. The word is not erased from their Bibles. Do you believe sealed means "once saved, always saved"?

WG,

Hmmm? If the Bible uses the word SEALED... why not just believe it. I believe the Lord says what he means.. and means what he says... SEALED.

I believe that if a person is truly saved they cannot lose their salvation. The key being truly saved.. not just saying they believe. Some believe with their heads.. not their hearts. No one EVER has a real relationship with the LOrd, speaks to him, listens to him.. loves him and then says... naaah... I'm going to worship idols.. or... I don't want to believe in you anymore. It is like me saying... I don't believe you exist WG... you do!. How do I know? Because you keep posting. If you have the real GOLD and you KNOW it... you don't exchange it for fake. No way. Besides... we are SEALED and that settles it.

I believe that if a person is truly saved they cannot lose their salvation.
There is a Christian and his child is kidnapped, raped, and tortured before being brutally murdered. The Christian curses God for allowing this to happen. For the rest of his life, this now-former Christian does everything he can to blacken God's name. Has this man "lost his salvation"? And yes, he was a Christian in every sense of the word before his child was ripped from him.

There is a Christian and his child is kidnapped, raped, and tortured before being brutally murdered. The Christian curses God for allowing this to happen. For the rest of his life, this now-former Christian does everything he can to blacken God's name. Has this man "lost his salvation"? And yes, he was a Christian in every sense of the word before his child was ripped from him.

NO... a person doesn't lose their salvation and the Holy spirit will continue to woo that person back to himself. I contend, and many Christians disagree with me.. that a true Christian... a REAL one not a head knowledge person... is saved forever. Take a look at the man in 1 Corinthians 5. Paul said to hand the guy over to satan for the destruction of his body so that his soul could be saved. He was living with his step mom in a sexual relationship. Paul called him a BROTHER... and said his soul would be saved but the Satan could have at him for not turning from his sin. There is a million reasons I believe this... take Noah's Ark... Ark is a picture of Christ... no ONE could get in once the door was closed and NO one could get out until he let them out. They never had to hang on for dear life and hope they made it through the flood... Jesus Christ is the AUTHOR and Finisher of OUR faith... even in the scenario that you gave. That is what I think

Sorry Galv for getting off course...

WG, if you have not done so, please read The Shack. This story centers around the exact scenario that you are trying to describe. Maybe you will gain some insite into the meanings of saved, sealed and forgiveness.

WG, if you have not done so, please read The Shack. This story centers around the exact scenario that you are trying to describe. Maybe you will gain some insite into the meanings of saved, sealed and forgiveness.
I read it last year. Mack was questioning how a good and loving God could allow his daughter to die in such a way, but Mack hadn't given up on God entirely -- big difference from my scenario.

Why do you think I need insight?

WG,

Here is the thing in your scenerio, as a Christian we understand that everything we are given here on earth , we are only stewards of. Our children aren't ours but the Lord's. Our money isn't ours but the Lord's, our home isn't ours but the Lord's. So if the Lord SHOULD allow a person to lose everything then we eventually have to DIE to ourselves and say... Even IF he slays me... YET will I trust him. So my position is eventually a born again person will indeed get to that point in his walk. Some quicker than others but if they are saved.. they will get there. But Salvation is of the Lord. I can't save myself nor can I keep myself saved. OK.. I guess nuff said.

Galveston, you say well! There are two baptisms or visitations by the Spirit, by our individual determination. One is clearly the Spirit of Christ who seeks to indwell. This is often confused with the receiving of Holy Spirit - again by our own actions in desiring Him in greater fullness : briefly my experience is as follows : following a 'movement' of the Spirit in a Baptist church (1981) by my own choice the Minister 'laid hands on me' and - nothing! But a couple of weeks later, whilst working late, completely on my own, the Holy Spirit in a sense, broke through as it were, and I was enabled to prophesy which was the most unique religious experience I have ever had. I was changed for ever, rising as it were to a higher level of understanding and desire for Him. I remember the prophetic utterance even to today.. does this help?

In this country today, none of the denominations that I know of teach their people that they need to be baptised in/with the Holy Ghost other than the pentecostal groups, and the percentage of their people who receive the Holy Ghost is pitifully low.

I just want to say that the mormon church teaches that you must be baptized with the holy ghost. It's even part of the baptismal ritual. The holy ghost holds as prominent a place in the mormon church as jesus.


since this is a serious question the serious answer is the Gifts of the Spirit becoming manifest in your life. Speaking in tongues is usually the initial evidence but the ability to prophecy, to heal, to perform acts of faith, all these and more are explained in Scripture. For me it started with tongues totally unexpectedly but moved on to faith and healing, but your whole view changes you understand the Scriptures better. I would not lie about such matters and I don't expect you would either, however we are told to test every spirit so you will be brought undone if you lie, i have written a book about my experiences in revival and as a spirit filled Christian. i would have had no motivation to do this if it were not so.

The way the mormon church teaches it, the holy ghost speaks in a 'still, small voice.' prophesy, speaking in tongues, healing, and the like, are never really heard of beyond the bible. People speak of miracles, but they are almost never attributed to another human being.



Please understand, I'm just trying to give you another point of view to think of. I'm not trying to step on any toes or offend anyone. I just stumbled across this thread and figured I'd add a point for you to discuss.

i
prophesy, speaking in tongues, healing, and the like, are never really heard of beyond the bible. people speak of miracles, but they are almost never attributed to another human being.

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Then these people are missing something that is spoken of in the Bible and is part of daily life. Did I know this before I experienced it? Not really, but it is clearly laid out in the Bible and easy to see when you understand

"The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control."

"Do not be deceived. God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up."

Paul wrote this to the church he started in Ephesus: So I tell you this and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.
... You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. Surely you heard of him, and were taught in him accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitudes of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. In your anger do not sin: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold..

He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.

Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.

For of this you can be sure: no immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolator--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light.

... "Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."

Be very careful, then, how you live--not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil.

Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes.


I don't even want to believe 'once saved always saved,' I won't take that chance. Why would God have to warn us to be on guard of the devil's schemes, if we are a shoe in to heaven. It doesn't make since to believe that we have a special pass to heaven just because we say we do, when
God warns us to put on his full armor to stand against the devil. We are humans and if we don't do God's will we're going to fall.

I don't even want to believe 'once saved always saved,'

An I don't even WANT to believe that any of my eternal security depends upon me. Why? Because I know me... and I will screw it up.

God didn't throw a life boat to Noah and his family and leave it up to them to hold on to it. NOPE. He put them in a BIG OL ARK. No one got in... no ONE got out. What a beautiful picture of the Lord Jesus.

Anyone who calls themselves a Christian and believes they can willy nilly live in sin and not have the consequences of their behavior is foolish. You are correct... Whatsoever a mans sows he reaps. AND I would check my birthcertificate if I thought I could do what my flesh wanted. BUT...
ain't no way the Lord left my eternal security up to me. Salvation is of the Lord. PERIOD.

This might be a good time to post these words of Jesus.

John 15:1-6
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
(KJV)

I think this pretty much says it all.

An I don't even WANT to believe that any of my eternal security depends upon me. Why? because I know me...and I will screw it up.

Are you saying then that you don't have to worry about anything you say or do because you just know you're going to heaven? Just because you believe it there's nothing you could ever do for God to say, "I never knew you?"

God didn't throw a life boat to Noah and his family and leave it up to them to hold on to it. NOPE. He put them in a BIG OL ARK. No one got in...no ONE got out. What a beautiful picture of the Lord Jesus.

God gave Noah very specific instructions on how to build the ark, and Noah followed them to the letter. God gave us very specific instructions on how to be saved, they're all contained in his word, including being baptized into Christ.


Anyone who calls themselves a Christian and believes they can willy nilly live in sin and not have the consequences of their behavior is foolish. You are correct...Whatsoever a mans sows he reaps. AND I would check my birthcertificate if I thought I could do what my flesh wanted. BUT.....
ain't no way the Lord left my eternal security up to me. Salvation is of the Lord. PERIOD.

But you are implying that there is no way to lose salvation once you believe so then are you saying that you can live willy nilly in sin and still be saved? Salvation is of the Lord, and we can do his will and be saved or pick and choose which ones we want to follow and run the risk of being lost.

Donna,

I'm not implying it I'm saying it. And I'm talking about people who are really saved.. not people who have head knowledge. There is a diffence. I have willy nilly sinned and never lost my salvation. BUT I just couldn't stay in THAT sin because I was miserable... ALSO... I lived the consequencnes too. We never get away with anything...

You bring up an interesting point. Jesus does say to many in that day who claim to have done many wonderful works in his name... "depart from me you workers of inquity... i never knew you." Never means... he NEVER knew them. Not once upon a time they were close but then they strayed too far...

I also love that the Lord promises us he will NEVER leave us for forsake us. NEVER means that.

But this argument will continue until he returns. I don't think Christians will ever agree on it. I've settled in my heart that his blood cleansed me from ALL of my sin.

I also love that the Lord promises us he will NEVER leave us for forsake us. NEVER means that.
But we can leave Him.

WG,

De ja vue... think we have been around this mountain before...



The PROMISE.. if I read correctly is... HE will never leave me... there is NO condition.

the PROMISE..if I read correctly is... HE will never leave me....there is NO condition.
Right. But I can push Him away.

K. But what of HIS promise.?

K. But what of HIS promise.???
I said I agree; He is there waiting. But we have free will and can say no, or, if we had said yes, can change our mind and say no. God gave us free will at any time during our walk in this life. He's not going to force us to say yes or to be with Him when we don't want to be.

My husband just left for what he calls a wonderful camping trip to Utah. He goes there twice a year. I used to go, had always said yes, but my interests have changed, and I don't really care about camping in Utah any longer. He is sad that I have said no but won't force me to go.

The same with God and us. He offers us a wonderful thing called salvation -- even better than Utah. Some have experienced he joy that it brings, but their interests have changed, and they don't really care about salvation any longer. God is sad that they have said no but won't force them to be saved.

God didn't change; people changed and decided "Thanks, but no thanks." God won't drag them kicking and screaming to -- or back to -- salvation; it's a free gift that they can refuse.

So... did your hubby divorce you? Did he kick you out of the house? I didn't think so. :)