View Full Version : Butter or Margarine. Which One Do You Prefer and Why?
Clough
Jan 8, 2010, 02:11 AM
Hi, All!
The title is my question. I'm asking in regards to cooking in general, baking, microwaving, frying, boiling, general eating, etc.
My preference for eating vegetables and other foods where butter or margarine would work would be to use butter.
But, I know that some recipes might work better with one or the other.
What do you like to use and for what purpose and why, please?
Thanks!
ramatgmail
Jan 8, 2010, 02:31 AM
Definitely butter - it's the real thing or else it's not worth it. The natural taste of butter is significantly better In my opinion.
artlady
Jan 8, 2010, 02:32 AM
I use margarine for cooking because butter is too pricey and it also seems to me to heat up too fast.
For cookie batter I like to use butter,but only if it is on sale.
Having said that I should add that I rarely use butter but I am fussy about my margarine and will only use land -o- lakes.
The country crock spreads and their ilk have too much water in them to get them to fry things nicely.
Bon appétit.
mudweiser
Jan 8, 2010, 02:33 AM
I said margarine.
I use the one with olive oil in it and it's "heart healthy".
I honestly don't taste the difference in butter and margarine and well meh I just like using it.
Clough
Jan 8, 2010, 02:35 AM
Now, we're running in a dead heat! Half for butter and half for margarine!
This could get really interesting...
Thanks!
Clough
Jan 8, 2010, 02:49 AM
I use margarine for cooking because butter is too pricey and it also seems to me to heat up too fast.
For cookie batter I like to use butter,but only if it is on sale.
Having said that I should add that I rarely use butter but I am fussy about my margarine and will only use land -o- lakes.
The country crock spreads and their ilk have too much water in them to get them to fry things nicely.
Bon appétit.
When I did use margarine, I too was very fussy about which one that I would use.
There was one that was, and I think still is, called Smart Beat. It wouldn't even melt in the frying pan!
So, I wonder what it would do in a persons' body.
Do you think that the more watery margarines aren't as good for frying because they evaporate, (maybe fry-up? Not sure of the term to use), so quickly?
Clough
Jan 8, 2010, 02:50 AM
I said margarine.
I use the one with olive oil in it and it's "heart healthy".
I honestly don't taste the difference in butter and margarine and well meh I just like using it.
Which one has the olive oil in it?
That's interesting that you can't taste the diffference. I definitely do!
artlady
Jan 8, 2010, 03:34 AM
When I did use margarine, I too was very fussy about which one that I would use.
There was one that was, and I think still is, called Smart Beat. It wouldn't even melt in the frying pan!
So, I wonder what it would do in a persons' body.
Do you think that the more watery margarines aren't as good for frying because they evaporate, (maybe fry-up? Not sure of the term to use), so quickly?
I Googled margarine vs.butter for cooking and there is so much debate out there. You have your good cholesterol and your bad and your trans fats and oh my!
The bottom line on cooking with certain spreads is as follows.
Spreads do not have a specific amount of fat in them (some are as much as 50% water), and their melting points are all over the map. Because they are so inconsistent, they are not reliable for cooking.
You made me do my homework(long overdue) and I am going to follow up.I do a lot of cooking everyday and I do need to make sure I am keeping my family healthy as well as happy.
Thanks for putting this bee in my bonnet :)
redhed35
Jan 8, 2010, 03:38 AM
Butter butter butter... but not for cooking...
Olive oil or duck or goose fat,makes a big difference to the taste,its natural fats and if used in moderation can make a meal divine...
Goose fat is the ambrosa of the cooking gods.
artlady
Jan 8, 2010, 03:47 AM
butter butter butter...but not for cooking...
olive oil or duck or goose fat,makes a big differance to the taste,its natural fats and if used in moderation can make a meal divine...
goose fat is the ambrosa of the cooking gods.
Since I never heard of this I looked it up thinking I have to have the ambrosia of cooking Gods but my dear ,the cheapest I could find was twenty dollars (without S&H) for a 14oz.tub!
No wonder it tastes divine :)
Maybe when I come to visit you,you can make me a dish made with goose fat but until then ,its back to the bargain basement stuff for me :)
redhed35
Jan 8, 2010, 03:51 AM
Goose fat is 20 dollars... no way!
Its only 3 euros here for a good sized tub.
artlady
Jan 8, 2010, 03:58 AM
goose fat is 20 dollars...no way!
its only 3 euros here for a good sized tub.
Isn't that crazy?
I guess because it is uncommon in the US. And considered a gourmet item.
We can be so behind the times sometimes :rolleyes:
artlady
Jan 8, 2010, 04:04 AM
goose fat is 20 dollars...no way!
its only 3 euros here for a good sized tub.
I did find it cheaper and it is rendered goose fat,is that as good?
I guess there is a gourmet side and then the rendered type.
redhed35
Jan 8, 2010, 04:13 AM
I did find it cheaper and it is rendered goose fat,is that as good?
I guess there is a gourmet side and then the rendered type.
Like a posh goose and a pleasant goose... fat is fat.
artlady
Jan 8, 2010, 04:42 AM
like a posh goose and a pleasent goose....fat is fat.
Sounds right to me ,thanks Red :)
Clough
Jan 8, 2010, 05:29 AM
Hey!
So far it's 4 to 2 here and butter is winning!
Thanks!
Clough
Jan 8, 2010, 05:33 AM
goose fat is 20 dollars...no way!
its only 3 euros here for a good sized tub.
What's considered to be a "tub", please?
Thanks!
redhed35
Jan 8, 2010, 06:38 AM
What's considered to be a "tub", please?
Thanks!
Like a container for butter,or icecream... we call it a tub.
Different sizes for different volumes.
Like tubberware!
Unknown008
Jan 8, 2010, 06:59 AM
I prefer margarine when cooked... (well, it's the cooking forum, right?) but I prefer butter when eating it 'raw'. That's how I am :)
So... margarine here!
According to Dr. Oz (sorry, it's late for me and I can't seem to find the article, maybe someone else will be able to ), butter is healthier for you than margarine if used in moderation. What I remember of the article is that our bodies are able to recognize butter as it is a natural substance, whereas margarine is mostly chemically made.
I remember watching a program, not Oprah, where he told the person to squeeze butter in one hand (it melted) and squeeze some margarine in the other (it oozed through the fingers without melting). He said to look at both hands like the heart... the butter melts completely where the margarine does not, thus clogging the arteries when eaten.
Again, there is so much controversy out there, but this program stuck in my mind.
HistorianChick
Jan 8, 2010, 07:09 AM
Butter, butter, butter! :)
Except for times when I'm using a recipe that calls for cups and cups of butter - then I'll use half and half. I make wedding cakes and sometimes the doubled and tripled recipe's call for loads of butter!
excon
Jan 8, 2010, 07:15 AM
Hello:
It's not a matter of taste. It's a matter of health. Margarine is hydrogenated oil. Hydrogenation is nothing more than a hardening process, but during the process trans fats are produced, and they ain't good.
Unlike other dietary fats, trans fats are not essential, and they do not promote good health. The consumption of trans fats increases the risk of coronary heart disease by raising levels of "bad" LDL cholesterol and lowering levels of "good" HDL cholesterol. Health authorities worldwide recommend that consumption of trans fat be reduced to trace amounts. Trans fats from partially hydrogenated oils are more harmful than naturally occurring oils.
Now, my exwife can be proud of me for being healthful for once.
excon
Unknown008
Jan 8, 2010, 07:17 AM
You're freaking me out now... but I can't change my vote...
What Sexy Exy said is correct Unky. Margarine is actually very unhealthy. One thing I also remember hearing (don't think it's true though) is that margarine is one molecule different than plastic.
Place a bowl of margarine out on the kitchen counter as well as a plate of butter... which one melts completely faster? Well, margarine won't melt completely without a heat source such as a stove or microwave, where butter will.
Unknown008
Jan 8, 2010, 07:24 AM
I'm glad I don't consume margarine as frequent as butter... my mum often use them in cakes, to prevent it from sticking to the pan. And that's precisely where the cake tastes best, it's all crunchy. Well, better switch to butter then.
Have you ever toasted bread slices with butter spread on it? When it's still warm and the butter has melted into the bread, it tastes marvellous! :p
Just Dahlia
Jan 8, 2010, 05:12 PM
I'm voting BUTTER, before I read anything and I'm sticking to it!:)
Just Dahlia
Jan 8, 2010, 05:28 PM
When I was young my Granny only used Lard and butter, but I think more Lard. (I was told by my Mom that if you put a potato in bacon grease it will cleanse it and you will have Lard) I actually have no desire to make Lard, but I save my bacon grease for other things.:)
Later in life I was raised on unsalted butter, which was disgusting:(
I only use butter, I have never bought margarine, I would rather have dry toast (and have many times) than put margarine on it. It tastes like waxy nothingness to me.
I now need to go make something with butter (salted)
By the way my cholesterol is great, I'm not over weight and I have no heart conditions, liver is good too (worry about that sometimes:rolleyes:)
Stringer
Jan 8, 2010, 06:18 PM
Hey Clough,
Only Land 'O Lakes spreadable butter.
tickle
Jan 8, 2010, 06:42 PM
I go for Becel Buttery. I am with muddy on heart healthy matters. I cook with butter where it is needed but usually add olive oil to it when frying. Becel is good for frying where needed too.
Tick
Just Dahlia
Jan 8, 2010, 08:36 PM
I go for Becel Buttery. I am with muddy on heart healthy matters. I cook with butter where it is needed but usually add olive oil to it when frying. Becel is good for frying where needed too.
tick
If I am frying, I always add a little olive oil, the butter does not burn with the addition.
Clough
Jan 8, 2010, 11:11 PM
I'm glad I don't consume margarine as frequent as butter... my mum often use them in cakes, to prevent it from sticking to the pan. And that's precisely where the cake tastes best, it's all crunchy. Well, better switch to butter then.
Have you ever toasted bread slices with butter spread on it? When it's still warm and the butter has melted into the bread, it tastes marvellous! :p
Once I switched to butter, it became a staple in my diet for using it on food.
I've toasted bread and then spread butter on the slices. Yes, it tastes great! Almost don't need anything else on the bread. Although, I do usually dip my toast in something, like soup.
What type of bread is your preference, if you have a preference, Unky?
Unknown008
Jan 8, 2010, 11:20 PM
Well, I'm not sure you have the same bread as me, Clough.
I don't dislike whole wheat bread.
I like usual bread that is not too 'elastic' nor the crust too hard. Makes my palate hurt and sometimes bleed even. :eek:
Oh and adding a sliced cheese on the toasted bread with butter before baking... hmm! The smooth melted cheese in the mouth! :p
Clough
Jan 9, 2010, 12:17 AM
Yes, I like melted cheese on toasted bread also, Unky!
My preference is whole wheat bread.
Breads are probably similar around the world. But, there are a lot of different varieties.
Where I'm located, we can get breads, like there made in many different countries.
In many ways, the world has grown smaller, but also larger...
Stringer
Jan 9, 2010, 01:21 AM
Yes, I like melted cheese on toasted bread also, Unky!
My preference is whole wheat bread.
Breads are probably similar around the world. But, there are a lot of different varieties.
Where I'm located, we can get breads, like there made in many different countries.
In many ways, the world has grown smaller, but also larger...
A single mans' standard... Cheesewhiz...
Clough
Jan 9, 2010, 01:25 AM
Gee whiz, it's Cheese Whiz! :D
Stringer
Jan 9, 2010, 01:27 AM
Gee whiz, it's Cheese Whiz! :D
I always have at least two jars handy.
Clough
Jan 9, 2010, 01:47 AM
I always have at least two jars handy.
I have the same thing, Stringer. Although, mine are the generic equivalents.
JoeCanada76
Jan 9, 2010, 02:02 AM
Margarine for everything.
Yes, and I actually can taste the difference between butter and margarine and butter tastes gross.
Margarine is very easy to work with.
Clough
Jan 9, 2010, 02:19 AM
Why do you think that butter tastes gross, Jesushelper76?
Clough
Jan 9, 2010, 02:21 AM
By the way, I've borrowed the book "The Shack" and will be reading it...
By the way, I've borrowed the book "The Shack" and will be reading it...
Funny we were just talking about that book last night at work. I have to start, and finish, The Lazy Bones first, but will be reading The Shack when I am done with Bones. I can't wait to read both.
I guess this is conversation for another thread. :o
twinkiedooter
Jan 9, 2010, 04:40 PM
I love the new Land O Lakes Butter with Olive Oil. I got a tub of that with a loaf of pumpernickle bread and pigged out it tasted sooooo good eating 5 slices in one sitting. It's a new item and might not be in stores near you yet. They do have a butter with canola but canola is nothing but rape seed and that makes me sick as humans are not supposed to eat rape seeds - only cattle. No wonder I'd get ill. Canola oil is nothing to ingest if you are a human.
Only olive or coconut oil or butter. No margarine. Until I found out that margarine was nothing but pretend food that was not good for you I would eat it. I confess. Now I wouldn't add it to my body for all the tea in China.
Stringer
Jan 9, 2010, 05:12 PM
I love the new Land O Lakes Butter with Olive Oil. I got a tub of that with a loaf of pumpernickle bread and pigged out it tasted sooooo good eating 5 slices in one sitting. It's a new item and might not be in stores near you yet. They do have a butter with canola but canola is nothing but rape seed and that makes me sick as humans are not supposed to eat rape seeds - only cattle. No wonder I'd get ill. Canola oil is nothing to ingest if you are a human.
Only olive or coconut oil or butter. No margarine. Until I found out that margarine was nothing but pretend food that was not good for you I would eat it. I confess. Now I wouldn't add it to my body for all the tea in China.
Yes we have tried the L O Lakes with olive oil, pretty good Twink.
Clough
Jan 9, 2010, 10:13 PM
I love the new Land O Lakes Butter with Olive Oil. I got a tub of that with a loaf of pumpernickle bread and pigged out it tasted sooooo good eating 5 slices in one sitting. It's a new item and might not be in stores near you yet. They do have a butter with canola but canola is nothing but rape seed and that makes me sick as humans are not supposed to eat rape seeds - only cattle. No wonder I'd get ill. Canola oil is nothing to ingest if you are a human.
Only olive or coconut oil or butter. No margarine. Until I found out that margarine was nothing but pretend food that was not good for you I would eat it. I confess. Now I wouldn't add it to my body for all the tea in China.
I'll have to give the Land O Lakes Butter with Olive Oil a try!
Clough
Jan 31, 2010, 09:55 PM
It looks like butter is the winner here!
EmoPrincess
Jan 31, 2010, 10:08 PM
I like using butter, organic to be specific. I just don't like genetically engineered things
MickSGC
Feb 1, 2010, 06:10 PM
I use 50/50 but if butter is a key part of the taste then I use real butter!
I most often make a 'short crust' pastry where the flavor isn't so much an issue for me, but if it was bothered I'd add cinnamon or nutmeg to the pastry flour to make it sweet, or salt and pepper for a quiche or 'pastie' (English hand held food) to make it savory.
albear
Feb 1, 2010, 06:13 PM
Depends what for, butter to make scrambled eggs and margarine with my bread :)
Just Dahlia
Feb 1, 2010, 07:24 PM
depends what for, butter to make scrambled eggs and margarine with my bread :)
Ewwww:rolleyes:
KISS
Feb 1, 2010, 07:39 PM
Is this Eating or cooking with?
Raison bread, English muffins, sweet potatoes, baked pototoes - butter. Actually baked potatoes I like both sour cream and butter.
Although margerine in a tub with Olive oil in it will substitute.
Baking cookies except "Butter cookies", then stick margerine. Cakes stick margerine.
Frying, usually extra virgin olive oil, sometimes vegetable oil and sometimes a mix of margerine and oil
Potato pancakes have to be made with vegetable oil.
Kugel has to be made with Bacon Grease. Kugel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kugel)
Eating butter or margerine by itself, then neither.
Just Dahlia
Feb 1, 2010, 08:59 PM
Is this Eating or cooking with?
Raison bread, English muffins, sweet potatoes, baked pototoes - butter. Actually baked potatoes I like both sour cream and butter.
Although margerine in a tub with Olive oil in it will substitute.
Baking cookies except "Butter cookies", then stick margerine. Cakes stick margerine.
Frying, usually extra virgin olive oil, sometimes vegtable oil and somtimes a mix of margerine and oil
Potatoe pancakes have to be made with vegetable oil.
Kugel has to be made with Bacon Grease. Kugel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kugel)
Eating butter or margerine by itself, then neither.
I've never been a Kugel person, haven't found a good enough recipe. Hubby loves the stuff.
We named our dog after it:D (but spelled it different for people who had no clue.):rolleyes: We got tired of pronouncing it for them, 'Coogle':)
KISS
Feb 1, 2010, 09:11 PM
I call it Kug-gul-lee
A lot of effort to make. Mine's good, I think. Handed down direct from my grandmother who immigrated from Lithuania.
KISS
Feb 1, 2010, 10:28 PM
Try this:
Kugelis
(Grated Potato Pudding)
6 lbs red potatoes
8 eggs (slightly beaten)
3 tsp. salt
12 oz can evaporated milk
¼ tsp white pepper
1 lb bacon
1 medium onion chopped
Dice bacon and fry until almost crisp. Add chopped onion and sauté until golden. Set aside.
Peel and grate potatoes. Add eggs, salt and evaporated milk. Add bacon and onion into the potato batter and mix well, Pour into a greased baking dish. (A Pyrex baking dish is good)
Place into a preheated oven at 450, for 10 minutes. Lower oven temperature to 350 and bake until edges are crispy brown – about 1.5 hours.
This may not be the exact recipe, but it has the right ingredients. I know I add some bacon grease to the mix.
albear
Feb 2, 2010, 06:07 AM
ewwww:rolleyes:
What do you mean ewwww, shesh some people have no taste :D
tickle
Feb 2, 2010, 06:13 AM
Try this:
Kugelis
(Grated Potato Pudding)
6 lbs red potatoes
8 eggs (slightly beaten)
3 tsp. salt
12 oz can evaporated milk
¼ tsp white pepper
1 lb bacon
1 medium onion chopped
Dice bacon and fry until almost crisp. Add chopped onion and sauté until golden. Set aside.
Peel and grate potatoes. Add eggs, salt and evaporated milk. Add bacon and onion into the potato batter and mix well, Pour into a greased baking dish. (A Pyrex baking dish is good)
Place into a preheated oven at 450, for 10 minutes. Lower oven temperature to 350 and bake until edges are crispy brown – about 1.5 hours.
This may not be the exact recipe, but it has the right ingredients. I know I add some bacon grease to the mix.
This sounds like a heart attack waiting to happen.
Tick
tickle
Feb 2, 2010, 06:15 AM
ewwww:rolleyes:
I can't understand what is 'ewwwww' about butter with scrambled eggs and margarine for toast. I think that is quite acceptable but I don't use butter any longer, I use Becel with olive oil and it is quite good on toast.
Tick
Clough
Feb 2, 2010, 01:16 PM
Originally Posted by Just Dahlia https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/cooking/butter-margarine-one-do-you-prefer-why-432925-post2207103.html#post2207103)
ewwww:rolleyes:
I can't understand what is 'ewwwww' about butter with scrambled eggs and margarine for toast. I think that is quite acceptable but I don't use butter any longer, I use Becel with olive oil and it is quite good on toast.
Tick
Why don't you use butter any longer, tickle?
Thanks!
tickle
Feb 2, 2010, 02:08 PM
Why don't you use butter any longer, tickle?
Thanks!
Hi Clough ! I use butter when a recipe specifically calls for it. I don't use butter because of my cholesterol. I have actually found that Becel margarine tastes like butter and it is heart friendly and cholesterol friendly. I don't know if you can buy this brand in the U.S. Another good reason is that a pound of butter when sky high up here to about $6.00 a pound. That's a good reason not to use it too.
I remember years ago when they first came out with margarine, it was in bags with a coloured insert that had to be pressed and worked into the white margarine because they weren't allowed to sell margarine that looked like butter.
Tick
afaroo
Feb 2, 2010, 02:46 PM
I agree with Redhead about olive oil for coocking is good, we use Extra Virgin olive oil, but am not sure about duck or goose fat, Thanks.
John
Clough
Feb 2, 2010, 02:48 PM
Did you vote on the poll, afaroo?
afaroo
Feb 2, 2010, 02:54 PM
Yes I did
tickle
Feb 2, 2010, 02:58 PM
I agree with Redhead about olive oil for coocking is good, we use Extra Virgin olive oil, but am not sure about duck or goose fat, Thanks.
John
As a long time chef, I too, have never been sure of duck or goose fat, or pork fat for that matter. Roasted duck I love, goose no way, too fatty.
Tick
jmjoseph
Feb 2, 2010, 03:09 PM
Clough, I just got onto this poll. I use butter. I cook at home a lot, and am in charge on the food and kitchen at our church where we feed 200 plus on Wednesday nights. I have 4 pies in the oven as we "speak". Each one contains 6 tablespoons of BUTTER. Real, salted, butter. "Land-O-lakes", to be exact. Sometimes I stretch it out while cooking "healthy" with olive oil. The good olive oil, extra virginal.
I have tried all types of margarine, and have not been completely satisfied. Most chefs I know use real butter.
I think as long as you don't eat it three times a day, it's OK. I would rather cut calories and fat somewhere else in my diet, than to deprive myself buttery goodness.
The best butter that I've ever had came fresh over from... Ireland! My flight attendant wife keeps me supplied with all sorts of worldly spices and ingredients. We get our spices from Israel and Dubai , coffee from Columbia, and our butter from Dublin.
Anyone want chocolate-walnut pie? The alarm just went off...
Clough
Feb 2, 2010, 03:17 PM
Clough, I just got onto this poll. I use butter. I cook at home a lot, and am in charge on the food and kitchen at our church where we feed 200 plus on Wednesday nights. I have 4 pies in the oven as we "speak". Each one contains 6 tablespoons of BUTTER. Real, salted, butter. "Land-O-lakes", to be exact. Sometimes I stretch it out while cooking "healthy" with olive oil. The good olive oil, extra virginal.
I have tried all types of margarine, and have not been completely satisfied. Most chefs I know use real butter.
I think as long as you don't eat it three times a day, it's OK. I would rather cut calories and fat somewhere else in my diet, than to deprive myself buttery goodness.
The best butter that I've ever had came fresh over from... Ireland! My flight attendant wife keeps me supplied with all sorts of worldly spices and ingredients. We get our spices from Israel and Dubai , coffee from Columbia, and our butter from Dublin.
Anyone want chocolate-walnut pie? The alarm just went off...
Thank you for such an informative and insightful as well as an answer from personal experience, jmjoseph!
Originally posted by jmjoseph
The best butter that I've ever had came fresh over from... Ireland!
Does that mean the cows give better milk over there?
Thanks!
Clough
Feb 2, 2010, 03:19 PM
Anyone want chocolate-walnut pie? The alarm just went off..........
Yes, but without the walnuts. I'm allergic to them!
Thanks!
redhed35
Feb 3, 2010, 02:22 AM
Thank you for such an informative and insightful as well as an answer from personal experience, jmjoseph!
Originally posted by jmjoseph
The best butter that I've ever had came fresh over from....Ireland!
Does that mean the cows give better milk over there?
Thanks!
Its depended on taste,the butter straight from the co-op ( where butter is made locally in some towns in ireland) is quite salty... its an acquired taste... we have brand names like dairy gold/kerry butter etc.. I have to say its nicer then butter I've tasted anywhere else... perhaps the cows are happier!
Clough
Feb 3, 2010, 12:03 PM
....perhaps the cows are happier!
That could very well be! I'm sure that it makes a difference in what they produce!
Thanks!
2labsmom
Feb 21, 2010, 02:31 PM
I always opt for non-salted butter, it's a natural by-product of milk where as margine(that is supposed to be healthy)was created in a lab and is considered to be 1 molecule away from plastic. Butter seems to be more palletable where margine seems to leave a funny film in the mouth. The only thing butter doesn't seem to work well for is pan frying. For that I use a little butter for flavor then add a little canola oil, about half and half, but that is just for pan frying not deep frying. Butter doesn't do well for the high heat of deep frying(neither does its price) but my choice is butter for flavor and for being a natural product
Just Dahlia
Feb 21, 2010, 06:07 PM
its depended on taste,the butter straight from the co-op ( where butter is made locally in some towns in ireland) is quite salty...its an aquired taste...we have brand names like dairy gold/kerry butter ect..i have to say its nicer then butter ive tasted anywhere else....perhaps the cows are happier!
Last weekend while I was at the store... I noticed for the first time 'Pure Irish Butter' about $4.oo a pound:eek: I was tempted and I might actually buy some just for toast:) But then I have to hide it from dear hubby, because he has no clue:rolleyes: