DO WE BELIEVE IN THE DEVIL?
Rev. P. J. Mc Hugh

Angels are not in style now and devils even less so. A homily on principalities and powers.. . The rulers of this world of darkness will cause reactions that range from a wan smile to (I quote one man at the sacristy door after Mass) “You mean to tell me you guys believe in devils in this day and age?” What I should have said, but did not was, “Let me tell you something: in this day and age more than ever before.” It is a pity we think of our brilliant ripostes at 2:00 in the morning. The devil is still very much part of our Faith, even if we are silent about him; indeed, especially then. It is not difficult to quote documents that confirm what the Church has always taught and now repeats in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God s reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries—of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature—to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him. Par 395

One hears all kinds of strange things in—what shall I call them?—great gatherings (yes, that will do). This kind of thing: the devils of the Gospels were sick states of mind but, because of their ignorance of psychopathology, they attributed what they could not understand to devils.

Wait a moment! When Jesus said to the devils in the possessed man, What is your name? And the answer came back, Our name is legion. There are many of us here, He was most certainly not addressing a sickness. And besides, sicknesses do not come out.. . Shrieking horribly.

It is astounding how easily even the good and pious are swayed by articulate people and they are greatly impressed (or words to that effect). Devils are dismissed out of hand and the Scripture references along with the Documents of the Church, as well. And all of this within the Church—within it, mark well. The crisis of Faith, and the consequent plague of relativism, is a contagion that is making the Body of Christ deeply, terribly ill. Devils can only be seen on the screen of the radarscope of Faith. If we are to think our way into what the demonic means in our world and in our lives, we have to start there, in what the Word of God proclaims.

The angelic universe was shattered in the conflict led on one side by Michael and on the other by Satan. This same war against God and His Creation spilled over into space and time; we are involved in this battle that fills the ages for the war is now waged through humans on both sides. Which means that although we cannot—we must not—see devils everywhere, there is something worse: to see them nowhere. The Second Vatican Council reminds us:. A monumental struggle against the powers of darkness pervades the whole history of man: the battle was joined from the very origins of the world and will continue until the last day, as the Lord has attested.

Caught in this conflict, man is obliged to wrestle constantly if he is to cling to what is good. Nor can he achieve his own integrity without valiant efforts and the help of God s grace.

The Church in the Modern World, par 37—Here is where the mystery become opaque: the conflict is against God and against Creation, that is to say, against the natural structures of human life, against all that is good and beautiful and decent and wholesome and true. In one word, against the Humane. The war is against Creation because Creation is God s handiwork and bears His stamp and impress. This is why Marriage, Family and Home are under attack now. The onslaught does not come from human perversity—that and nothing else besides. Powers of darkness are working through humans to corrupt, to degrade, to tear down.

Our pastoral problem is how to lead our people, heavily infected as most of them are on the secular smog they inhale and exhale, to an awareness of the Demonic. One way might be to tell them of the five D s of the demonic: deceive, degrade, divide, defile, destroy. Whenever these five signs appear something unspeakably malign is present and active.

To deceive. The truth is ripped apart with such cunning that words mean their opposite—choice becomes freedom to kill, slavery becomes peace, democracy means the invading power of the State, language is turned inside out. Barabbas is lionized and cheered; Jesus is branded as disturbing the people and led away to crucifixion. Jesus said of Satan:

"Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot hear my word. The father you spring from is the devil, and willingly you carry out his wishes. He brought death to man from the beginning, and has never based himself on truth; the truth is not in him. Lying speech is his native tongue; he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I deal in the truth, you give me no credence" John 8: 43-45

The thrust of the devil is against reality within human minds, against Truth. It is not that people believe nothing—they believe anything. When men lose Faith, Reason disintegrates as well and the lamps of order, of lucidity, of splendor of thought are extinguished one by one. Political correctness prevails; ideology dominates where theology had been queen; the screech against holiness and goodness and truth fills the world and is heard everywhere, even within the Church. Even there. The mind is at the apex of creation because through this god-like power we come into contact with all that is Real. Since Reality is our destiny in glory, the mind becomes a target for demons to ravage and destroy. We need to remind ourselves that the conflict that fills the world is against God and against Creation; that is to say, against the whole world of the Humane. Devils are far from being imps with horns, pitchforks and tails and they are never so successful as when they project that image of themselves into human minds.

To degrade: In one of his newsletters, Pastor Wurmbrand described how degradation was the chief weapon the Communists used to dehumanize their victims. The ways they would go about doing that were diabolical—there was a cunning and a hatred out of this world working through all they did. Degradation is a fearsome psychological weapon; the victim loses all sense of personal worth and, as that fades, the will to live shrivels up. To degrade is to murder, to kill. Jesus said Satan.. . Was a murderer from the beginning and the truth was not in him.

This does not mean that we are only puppets manipulated by demons or that we should think in mere dualistic terms as if Good and Evil were somehow equal and that the outcome of this war is in doubt. God allows evil, the malice of the devils fits into His eternal Plan. Even so, the reality of angelic ill-will remains. We cannot hope to begin to come to any understanding of Evil if we leave aside the mysterious personal dimension therein. To quote Shakespeare, Hell breathes forth contagion on the world. The abominations in our world are only partly man- made; human malice is not the full explanation. Spirits living in a realm of Disorder and Evil and Hate are involved in the evil we think and choose and do. An imaginary observer from outer space looking down on us would see the titanic War of the Spirits, the primal conflict between Michael and Satan, carried on in a world of space and time.

The degradation of man, the onslaught against all that is worthy of respect, admiration and praise, the grinding down of humans to the sub-human and below, is an example of the ways Satan manifests his hatred for man and attempts to destroy us. For in every man Satan sees, if we do not, the Man, born of the Virgin Mary, crucified under Pontius Pilate, Who rose again on the third day; the onslaught is against Him and degradation is the weapon.

They came to Gerasene territory on the other side of the lake. As he got out of the boat, he was immediately met by a man from the tombs who had an unclean spirit. The man had taken refuge among the tombs; he could no longer be restrained even with a chain. In fact, he had frequently been secured with handcuffs and chains, but had pulled the chains apart and smashed the fetters. No one had proved strong enough to tame him. Uninterruptedly night and day, amid the tombs and on the hillsides, he screamed and gashed himself with stones. Mark 5: 1-5

The war against Creation is waged on so many fronts, it would take a large book to describe them all. What is terrifying now is the disintegration of natural bonds that even pagans of all ages held sacred and, not least, the holocaust—a strong word, but accurate—of false accusations of adult children against their own parents; of false accusations, mark well. One published figure lists 13,000: thirteen thousand. And these are only the people who gave their names to the False Memory Center in Philadelphia. Never before in history has there been such an onslaught against the natural bonds of the family from within. Are we to dismiss all this as mere human frailty, and nothing else besides? Or must we fall back on what God has revealed: there are demons loose upon the earth and, because our culture is so deeply secularized, untouched by grace, devils roam at will? For they can be driven out only by the force of the grace of God coming against them and through people who center their lives on the Eucharist, on this Presence the Church calls Real. Our good works and prayers are weapons that hurl back devils, but from their point of view,

Perpetual Adoration is the spiritual A- bomb they fear most of all. Make your Holy Hour before the Lord every day and get as many of your parishioners to do the same. As you do—if you do—you will come to a strange, indefinable and indescribable awareness of Someone Who looks, Who calls, Who loves. But wait, I am not finished. You will also become aware, through strange things that happen, of another presence that glares and stirs up hatred against all you stand for.. . That, too. Perpetual Adoration is glorious. But know that you and your people are hurling spiritual A-bombs against demons and demons do not take this lying down. No, they do not. We read that the Cure of Ars was hurled out of bed. We smile. He got away lightly. What Satan and his devils can do is.. . Diabolical, literally. It must pain them to have to resort to such tricks as tossing us around when what they actually do is more fitted to what they are: angels with a cunning out of this world.

To divide. We can speak of heaven as a community of persons in glory. The word that is at the heart of all we believe is community, for this is our destiny; this is what we are on our way to. Death is the point where our friends in heaven suddenly burst into view and they will all say (I hope), Welcome Home! For all of these reasons—community.. . Union.. . Harmony.. . Peace.. . Home—are targets demons use to divide and thereby to destroy. Is it wild to think that dissent against the solemn teaching of the Church does not come altogether from human frailty, ignorance or partisan passion but from another realm alien to God and at war with Him? Is this paranoia or can we at least suspect that the fierce, unremitting thrust to divide the Church is part of Satan s endless war? Hence the urgency of asking the Lord day after day for the grace we all need to be faith-ful (take note of that hyphen) and to be forever loyal to Peter in all we think and do and say.

To defile. Persons and places become poisoned with rancor, suspicion, anger and hate; they become horrible in a strange unearthly way; there is some indefinable soul-corruption there.
Demons defile the world. In a moment of rare honesty among many artists, Picasso once admitted how depressed he had allowed himself to become.

In art the mass of the people no longer seek consolation and exaltation, but those who are refined, rich, unoccupied, who are distillers of quintessences, seek what is new, strange, original, extravagant, scandalous. I myself, since Cubism and before, have satisfied these masters and critics with all the changing oddities which have passed through my head, and the less they understood me, the more they admired me. By amusing myself with all these games, with all these absurdities, puzzles, rebuses, arabesques, I became famous and that very quickly.

And fame for a painter means sales, gains, fortune, riches. And today, as you know, I am celebrated, I am rich. But when I am alone with myself, I have not the courage to think of myself as an artist in the great and ancient sense of the term. Giotto, Titian, Rembrandt, were great painters. I am only a public entertainer who has understood his times and exploited as best he could the imbecility, the vanity, the cupidity of his contemporaries. Mine is a bitter confession, more painful than it may appear, but it has the merit of being sincere.

To destroy. When Jesus met the two men possessed by demons, the Gospel tells us that they were so savage no one could pass that way. Violence is the mark of Satan. Violence is not of the body only—beating, robbing, killing—but also, indeed most of all, the violence of reviling, of false accusation, of tearing down, of tale-bearing, of mockery, of sneering, of hate.
Our Blessed Lord summed up the demonic in one line. He said of Satan that he was a murderer from the beginning. The Word of God projects a struggle, a war, between opposing forces. St. John constantly speaks of light and darkness, life and death. Against Christ appears the Great Adversary who is, in Our Lord s own words, ruler of this world. With Satan are arrayed the earthly powers, those who hate the light and become instruments of Satan against God. All around us are propagandists for bestial, existential, amoral life-styles. They are followers of de Sade, who told them, “Whatever you feel like doing is good for you. If you enjoy torture, well and good . . . violations of so-called moral laws are both permissible and actually laudable, because they demonstrate the artificiality of such restraints and because the restraints impede the only demonstrable good: personal pleasure.”

This article appeared in the August/September 1995 issue of "The Homiletic & Pastoral Review," 86 Riverside Dr. New York, N.Y. 10024 – Reprinted by permission.
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

Devil is not politically correct, since it would mean that there also had to be a God. So with many that deny God, they can't accept a Devil since that would require there be a God.

And even for those that accept some God, they only want a happy lovey God .

Fr_Chuck
That is correct for many, but I believe in both God and the devil.
To me their works are obvious.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

1Peter 8, "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a
roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9, Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing
that the same suffering are experienced by your brotherhood in the world."

We must never forget that we are in a spiritual war, regardless of how well things may seem to be going for us. We live in a perpetual war zone. How many casualties
Occur because we think we live in a time of peace. Regardless of our concern or
Worry, God wants us to bring everything to Him. He always has our best interests at heart
And will rouse all His infinite power to help us become the people we are meant
To be.

Love and Blessing Maggie 3

Fred, We know we have the victory over satan, the devil, because of what Jesus did
At the cross. The power of the Holy Spirit is in us, a gift from God, but do most people
Know this, or the power of it. God's power for us to fight this spiritual battle is with His
Holy Spirt. The tragely is that millions of people around the world remain hopless
And helpless, daily they face heartache, oppression, and trials alone, unaware that God's
Power and love are available to them. One thing that brings assurance and hope is that
God is in control. This fact can encourage and strengthen your heart. "He is our very
present help in time of trouble". Ps.46:1
Faith says that we will recover and our final state will be better, that all things work
Together for good. Our week faith in Jesus is what threatenes us. Our minds say we
Are "doomed" and we believe it, Jesus says, be transformed by the renewing of
Your mind, use your faith in a new way, "I can do all things though Christ who
stfrengthens me." Fill your mind with Hope and Joy of the Lord, and His promises.

Love in Jesus, Maggie 3

Maggie 3,
You made some good points but I want to point out that we do not live in a time of peace.
The devil is hard at work in many places and in many ways.
One of the most significant is the war on worldwide terrorism. It was started by people motivated by fanatic hate and a love of violence against almost anyone including their own people.
Their own people who are innocent non-combatant people are being killed by the hundreds and thousands.
They have caused much damage worldwide and here in the USA they killed about 4000 people on 9/11 with 4 commandeered air planes.
With that sort of people in the world I vigorously hope and pray for worldwide peace and kindness,
Fred

I don't believe in God or the Devil. God has killed more people then the Devil according to the Bible so why would that make the Devil the bad guy. It's all one big headache. So I choose not to believe in them. ^^

God has killed more people then the Devil according to the Bible

I'm curious as to what scripture you got this from? I have a suspicion but please enlighten us.

I don't believe in God or the Devil. God has killed more people then the Devil according to the Bible so why would that make the Devil the bad guy. It's all one big headache. So I choose not to believe in them. ^^


Actually it is mans actions that causes his death, and it is Satan that caused any death to start with, Adam and Eve did not have death till Satan got involved

Dararamm,
God did not kill as you claim.
God gives us life and He can take it back as He does for all mortals.
BUT he also offers us eternal life in paradise while Satan offers us the opportunities that can provide for us and eternity in the abode of aginy which is hell.
My choice is to follow God and do His will as best I can taking the road to heaven.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Yeah, but since I'm not Christian I have a hard time imagining that God gave me life, I personally think that my parents gave me life. God had nothing to do with is, as far as I'm concerned. I know too many good people that have gone through so much and most of these people don't want to believe in God because what sort of God would make you're life so difficult. If there is a heaven, I don't think I'd want to go there. The theory about Adam and Eve is just something I'm not even going to get into here because like I said before I don't believe God created us. Instead of having faith in God. I'm believing in myself.
I think it's great for people to believe in a higher power. If that gives them peace then that's all good. But I lost my faith in God a long time ago. But I admire you who believe no matter what. My life doesn't need a higher being to have faith in.

Yeah, but since I'm not Christian I have a hard time imagining that God gave me life, I personally think that my parents gave me life. God had nothing to do with is, as far as I'm concerned. I know too many good people that have gone through so much and most of these people don't want to believe in God because what sort of God would make you're life so difficult. If there is a heaven, I don't think I'd want to go there. The theory about Adam and Eve is just something I'm not even going to get into here because like I said before I don't believe God created us. Instead of having faith in God. I'm believing in myself.
I think it's great for people to believe in a higher power. If that gives them peace then that's all good. But I lost my faith in God a long time ago. But I admire you who believe no matter what. My life doesn't need a higher being to have faith in.

First, You did not answer my question about where you are getting the idea that God killed so many people.

Second, So you believe your parents gave you life. OK, but how did that happen? Have you ever considered all that goes in during the process of a child being born or even conceived? How did your parents meet? What set of circumstances resulted in their meeting? What caused them to fall in love and get married? Then there is the actual act. How did one particular sperm manage to fertilize an egg that, in itself was receptive to fertilization? How designed the mechanism whereby a human male produces sperm and a human female produces eggs and the mechanism, to deliver the sperm and the egg into an environment where it can be fertilized and nourished until it can be pushed out into the world? Did you ever stop to think about all that? I certainly doubt it.

Let me add, that I don't believe in a god as depicted by the old and new testaments. Nor do I believe in a deity that is watching over us and meddling in our lives. But you can't just ignore some of the things I just mentioned.

First, You did not answer my question about where you are getting the idea that God killed so many people.

Second, So you believe your parents gave you life. OK, but how did that happen? Have you ever considered all that goes in during the process of a child being born or even conceived? How did your parents meet? What set of circumstances resulted in their meeting? What caused them to fall in love and get married? Then there is the actual act. How did one particular sperm manage to fertilize an egg that, in itself was receptive to fertilization? How designed the mechanism whereby a human male produces sperm and a human female produces eggs and the mechanism, to deliver the sperm and the egg into an environment where it can be fertilized and nourished until it can be pushed out into the world? Did you ever stop to think about all that? I certainly doubt it.

Let me add, that I don't believe in a god as depicted by the old and new testaments. Nor do I believe in a deity that is watching over us and meddling in our lives. But you can't just ignore some of the things I just mentioned.

Geez, I don't want to fight with you guys. Don't take my opinion that seriously. ^^
I'll tell you why I think God killed more people then the Devil but you can't be all serious about it. Because I would love to believe that God is actually there ^^
I used to be Christian as a kid. Praying with my dad and stuff. :p
Let's see... Noah's Ark, drowning everyone. And when he sent the plagues to the Egyptians. Those are two things I'm mentioning but already that's a lot of people.
But you guys will just say that he gave them life so he's allowed to take it away.
And if that's what you believe then who am I to argue with that.
I don't push my beliefs on to people. ^^
And about how I things my parents made me and God had nothing to do with it.
I still stand by what I said. I don't think he had anything to do with it.
But that's just what I think. I'm just one person on a planet full of people.
Many never even think about it. It's just life. =)
But if I were Christian you would make some good points :)

First, You did not answer my question about where you are getting the idea that God killed so many people.
This gets floated around a lot:
http://www.daily-nonsense.com/Blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/godvsatan-thumb.jpg

It's based on keeping count of "smitten" people in both testaments.

I'll tell you why I think God killed more people then the Devil but you can't be all serious about it. Because I would love to believe that God is actually there ^^ ...
Let's see... Noah's Ark, drowning everyone. And when he sent the plagues to the Egyptians. Those are two things I'm mentioning but already that's a lot of people.

Good, that's what I thought you were getting at and I happen to think it's a valid point. I'll add a couple of others; Sodom and Gomorrah and Egyptians drowned in the Red Sea. And before anyone jumps on these examples saying they were deserved, that's not the issue. According to the Bible, God had directly caused the death of untold numbers of people. Whether those deaths were justified or not is a different discussion. But Dararamm is correct in stating that he did.


I still stand by what I said. I don't think he had anything to do with it.
But that's just what I think. I'm just one person on a planet full of people.
Many never even think about it. It's just life. =)
But if I were Christian you would make some good points :)

What you think about how you came to be born, is totally up to you. Like you I do not believe in forcing my opinion on others. I am very happy that people find solace in their belief in God, whether they be Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu or whatever. I find solace in different ways.

My point in listing all those factors is that, if you are going to form a belief such as you have, I feel you need to make sure your belief provides answers for all those questions I asked. Otherwise, you are practicing blind faith which is what gets most people who are religious into the same dilemma.

This gets floated around a lot:
http://www.daily-nonsense.com/Blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/godvsatan-thumb.jpg

It's based on keeping count of "smitten" people in both testaments.

Hmmm, wonder how they count those drowned in the flood, etc.
BTW, I knew the answer, just wanted to see what Dararamm's answer was.

Damn it Scott, always a step ahead of me. :)

Dararamm,
God did not kill as you claim.
God gives us life and He can take it back as He does for all mortals.
...
My choice is to follow God and do His will as best I can taking the road to heaven.

I have a problem with this, Fred. All DaraRamm claimed was that God has killed more people than the Devil. Do you truly dispute that? I suggest reading my comments and NeedKarma's chart before you try. Whether God has the right to take back the lives you believe he gives is a different discussion, which I'm not going to get into since its based on faith.

As to your choice. This is where I have a large problem with many Christians. How do you define God's will (that's a rhetorical question and I do not expect or want an answer)? I define it as following the "Golden Rule" and the moral code as set down in the Ten Commandments. I feel as long as I live according to those, then, IF there is a heaven, then I will be welcomed into it. In the meantime. I feel good that I am doing good. But, if you define God's will as following the rules of any specific church, then you completely lose me.

Didn't know that people were interested in what I had to say about this. =3 But I agree with ScottGem. ^^

My only issue, if they don't believe in God, then how do they believe that "god" killed all of the people.

You can't not believe when it serves your purpose and then believe to make a point.

You can't not beleive when it serves your purpose and then beleive to make a point.Man isn't that the truth - for everybody.

My only issue, if they don't beleive in God, then how do they beleive that "god" killed all of the people.

You can't not beleive when it serves your purpose and then beleive to make a point.

It's for the sake of discussion Chuck.

When discussing an issue that is faith based you have to use that persons faith to discuss the issue.

In this case Arcura stated that God didn't kill anyone, but according to the bible that Arcura follows, this simply isn't true.

My only issue, if they don't beleive in God, then how do they beleive that "god" killed all of the people.

You can't not beleive when it serves your purpose and then beleive to make a point.

Well the point here is that we are saying what the Bible says, not what we necessarily believe.

Altenweg,
I believe I said that with and explanation that God takes back what He gives.
He will take the life of every mortal in many different ways.
God has His reasons of why in each case.
If you want to call that killing that's your choice not mine.
Regardless of that as the old saying goes we will not live this life without death.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Altenweg,
I believe I said that with and explanation that God takes back what He gives.
He will take the life of every mortal in many different ways.
God has His reasons of why in each case.
If you want to call that killing that's your choice not mine.
Regardless of that as the old saying goes we will not live this life without death.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Of course we'll all die eventually, I'm not talking about normal death, I'm talking about killing.

The great flood. He let those people die. He killed them by drowning them. That's just one example.

The bible does explain why this happened, still, he mass murdered all those people. There's no way to sugar coat it. He caused the flood, he made them drown. If you put someone's head in a tub full of water and they die, you killed them.

From Dictionary.com:
1. To deprive of life, animal or vegetable, in any manner or by any means; to render inanimate; to put to death; to slay. [1913 Webster]

So, according to the Old Testament, God deprived of life any being not on the Ark. Yes there are many issues that derive from this act. Justification, the right as the creator to do this etc.

But those issues do not, in any way, change the fact that, according to the Bible, God killed all those beings. For the purpose of THIS discussion that is the only issue.

Of course we'll all die eventually, I'm not talking about normal death, I'm talking about killing.

The great flood. He let those people die. He killed them by drowning them. That's just one example.

The bible does explain why this happened, still, he mass murdered all those people. There's no way to sugar coat it. He caused the flood, he made them drown. If you put someone's head in a tub full of water and they die, you killed them.

Altenweg, God did not mass murder all those people. Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being. God had every right to judge those people and to kill them for their disobedience and wickedness and for siding with the Devil.

Killing the enemy in a war is not murder, nor is capital punishment murder.

Altenweg, God did not mass murder all those people. Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being. God had every right to judge those people and to kill them for their disobedience and wickedness and for siding with the Devil.

Killing the enemy in a war is not murder, nor is capital punishment murder.

Killing is killing. You can put a pretty bow on it by saying that it's just, but it's still killing.

Here's the way I see it, and forgive me if I make this a bit long.

A while back I belonged to another site (yes, I know, bad Alty, I cheated on AMHD) and we got into a discussion about child molesters and the punishment these people should get.

Now, many of you know that I was molested as a child. It's by far the most horrible thing that's ever happened to me, and I've been through a lot of crap in my life. But the memories of that have definitely affected me more then any other event in my life.

So, when confronted with this issue I said that I wouldn't be at all sorry if child molesters got the chair. Fry them. Get them out of our world. I wouldn't shed a tear.

Another member came on and asked if I'd want to push the button, pull the trigger, whatever it takes to end this persons life. Would I be willing, through my rage, to do that? I more then most would be justified, but could I? Would I?

I really had to think about it. These people take a child and make every day thereafter a living hell. They take away the innocence, the good, the child, in the child. They are the bottom of the barrel when it comes to decency. They should not be allowed to roam the earth, but, could I kill someone, even knowing what they've done? Could I kill the person that molested me?

No. I couldn't. It's murder.

Do they deserve to die? I think they do, but it won't be by my hand. I'm not a killer.

So, kill the "enemy" in a war and justify it by saying that you're doing it for your country. It's still murder. Kill the people that wouldn't believe in God, let them drown, it's still murder.

You can't put a pretty bow on murder. You just can't. Thou shalt not kill, that's from your bible. Funny how that particular commandment always gets looked over when someone wants to kill.

Altenweg,
I understand where you are coming from.
I am one of those who is against satate sanctioned killing of killers, etc.
I'm very much for life.
But Child molesters do need to be taken from society for all time, never released from jailI have read that in jail other prisoners are very rough on child milesters.
If so, so be it.
But I do not think that God murders people.
Murder is a legal term, for the crime of unjustifily taking a life.
Some taking of life is justified.
As an example in self defence or to protect one's family.
That is legally called justifiable homicide.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Killing is killing. You can put a pretty bow on it by saying that it's just, but it's still killing.

Here's the way I see it, and forgive me if I make this a bit long.

A while back I belonged to another site (yes, I know, bad Alty, I cheated on AMHD) and we got into a discussion about child molesters and the punishment these people should get.

Now, many of you know that I was molested as a child. It's by far the most horrible thing that's ever happened to me, and I've been through a lot of crap in my life. But the memories of that have definitely affected me more then any other event in my life.

So, when confronted with this issue I said that I wouldn't be at all sorry if child molesters got the chair. Fry them. Get them out of our world. I wouldn't shed a tear.

Another member came on and asked if I'd want to push the button, pull the trigger, whatever it takes to end this persons life. Would I be willing, through my rage, to do that? I more then most would be justified, but could I? Would I?

I really had to think about it. These people take a child and make every day thereafter a living hell. They take away the innocence, the good, the child, in the child. They are the bottom of the barrel when it comes to decency. They should not be allowed to roam the earth, but, could I kill someone, even knowing what they've done? Could I kill the person that molested me?

No. I couldn't. It's murder.

Do they deserve to die? I think they do, but it won't be by my hand. I'm not a killer.

So, kill the "enemy" in a war and justify it by saying that you're doing it for your country. It's still murder. Kill the people that wouldn't believe in God, let them drown, it's still murder.

You can't put a pretty bow on murder. You just can't. Thou shalt not kill, that's from your bible. Funny how that particular commandment always gets looked over when someone wants to kill.

I really wanted to give you a greenie and more. Alty, that is it. Murder is murder. Can not put a pretty bow on murder. Thou shalt not kill, that is true. Under any circumstances it is not right to take anothers life.

God does not murder anyone. Creator of life. It is humans that kill each other and try to blame God or use God as a reasoning for them doing the killing.

Arcura, I understand where you're coming from too. I also agree that whatever happens to child molesters in prison, well, so be it, I'll turn a blind eye. ;)

The thing I have a hard time with, with regards to the flood especially, is the fact that innocent people did die. I don't think that killing everyone but Noah and his family, 2 of each animal, etc. was justifiable. What about babies? Babies are born innocent, without sin, but they were killed in order to cleanse the world.

I just can't see how killing innocent people is justified. What harm could a child do to God?

I'm not saying that your belief is wrong, but I do think that God killed. The fact that innocents were killed makes it a hard pill for me to swallow.

The fact is, Thou shalt not kill is one of the commandments, but most people think that some killing is okay. Someone else gave the example of war or capital punishment. So is it really a commandment? Is it then okay to commit adultery if it's justified? What about stealing? If the family is starving and they steal would that be justifiable?

It's either a rule or it isn't. There are no gray areas. If there's a gray area for one rule then the rest are pretty much null and void as well.

"God Is In Control" This is what gives me peace about things I can not understand.
God see the big picture, He knows what needs to be done and at the right time
Almighty God created this world out of nothing, put in into space, created all the
Galaxies in the universe put thelaws of nature in motion, and governs and guides
His creation. Certainly , He is in control of it. Not only did He create the universe, but
He sustains it and keeps it. That's what Paul said and describes in Col.1.
We will never clearly understand God and His working here on earth,But God is in
Control. I do believe that all things work together for good for thoes that love
The Lord and are called according to His pupose. Rom. 8:28

Col. 1:15-20 "He(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, firstborn over all creation.
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible
and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things
were created though Him and for Him. And He is befor all things, and in Him all
things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness shoud dwell, and by Him to
reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven,
having made peace though the blood of His cross".

Trust and have Faith, that God is in Control!

Maggie3

Trust and have Faith, that God is in Control!

Maggie3

I'm very glad that you find comfort in all that. But your post really had little if anything to do with the current discussion. Moreover, while its very nice that you find comfort that god is in control, not everyone does. If God is in control, then he is responsible for 9/11, Darfur, Katrina , Bernie Madoff, and a number of other disasters, tragedies and the ills of the world.

Yes I know your answer is that he sees the big picture or that he moves in mysterious ways, etc. But you beeive that because of your faith. And I don't want to tell you not to have that faith if it comforts you. But please don't tell me that I have to have the same faith. I don't take anything on faith, I prefer things to be tangible. I need evidence to believe in something.

We live in an age where there are no consequences for anyone's wrongdoings. A slap on the hand should be sufficient! This line of thinking does not promote "healthy living," but only a lifestyle of self fulfillment. So what if we destroy, deprave, degrade, deceive, debase, debauch, or defraud another human being. Is it really so bad? According to God, there is a problem.

Our world is filled with demons with Satan being the great leader and deceiver. He is the epitome of evil. Wherever evil is, there is Satan or his demons. The demons were also present during the flood. Genesis chapter 6 tells of man's wickedness and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Do you still think God should have spared them? If you know the story, Noah actually preached for about 120 years while building the ark. Everyone still refused to listen, and God was not going to force anyone on the ark. He wanted them to come because they loved and tusted Him. First Peter 3:20 says "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." Longsuffering is only one of many words that describes a very patient and loving God. One hundred and twenty years is a very long time. Enough time that everyone including those that were small and young would have been able to hear about the flood that God was going to send if the people did not repent. As you know, they did not repent and come aboard the ark, and all except Noah's family CHOSE to die instead of accept God and LIVE.

God is the only true and fair Judge. Because I know Him personally, I don't question his Judgements. They are right because they are based on His Truth. However, we can't say that about our earthly judges or law. We do have man-made laws that are to protect its people. God clearly tells us to obey those in authority (man's law) if it lines up with His Law. So if our law states that anyone that murders another will lose his life (after a fair trial), should we not uphold our law even though it sounds harsh. What message do we sent out to those that abuse our system, if no one is ever punished or suffers the consequences of their actions. I do not like the thoughts of anyone losing their life, but my thoughts are why would anyone take another's life, knowing that if caught they would lose their life. We have created a society that believes that no crime is too big or bad enough. Telling a criminal to be good is only creating a fearless group of renegades with no hesitation to go back out and finish what they started. You may be sure that Satan and his demons are only too happy to fill their minds with ideas.

I have learned that for me that if there is
No God then no peace, but if you
Know God then you know peace.

Scott, I wrote this for the christians that are questioning God for killing people.
We have no right to complain if our trust is in Him.
It is the devil or satan that came to steal kill, and destroy. Satan is spirit and
Puts evil thoughts in our mind and tries to control us. Some people
Believe what they hear and follow him. Jesus came that we might have life and have it more abundantly. We learn truth from Gods Word. It's all a choice we make.
It is good to know truth sets people free, so we can live in peace and joy if
We choose, and I choose God and His peace.

Maggie 3

I believe God is the only true and fair Judge. Because I believe I know Him personally, I don't question his Judgements. I believe They are right because they are based on His Truth.

I have learned that for me that if there is
no God then no peace, but if you
know God then you know peace.

I have only a small quibble with your post. Please note what I have added in red and emphasized in bold. As long as you qualify your statements as representing your beliefs then I have problems with it.

Scott, I wrote this for the christians that are questioning God for killing people.
We have no right to complain if our trust is in Him.
It is the devil or satan that came to steal kill, and destroy. Satan is spirit and
puts evil thoughts in our mind and tries to control us. Some people
believe what they hear and follow him. Jesus came that we might have life and have it more abundantly. We learn truth from Gods Word. It's all a choice we make.
It is good to know truth sets people free, so we can live in peace and joy if
we choose, and I choose God and His peace.

Maggie 3

Why just write for Christians?

If trusting in God means you have no right to complain, then that's just another reason to NOT put blind faith in a God.

And finding "truth" in God's words is just another way of saying that you have faith in those words. But truth is something that can be proven, not something that you just believe on faith.

And, if "god is in control" as you said earlier, then how do you have choice? The two concepts are contrdictory.

ScottGem,
God is in control according to His wishes.
But He gave us free will so He does not interfere with what we decide to do rightly or wrongly.
In that case we are in control of our lives.
Yes belief in God's truth is a matter of faith.
But since He is the ultimate in wisdom, love, mercy, and all His ather attributes God's truth MUST be true.
So we Chrsitiansd believe.
Peace and kindnerss,
Fred

ScottGem,
God is in control according to His wishes.
But He gave us free will so He does not interfere with what we decide to do rightly or wrongly.
In that case we are in control of our lives.
Yes belief in God's truth is a matter of faith.
But since He is the ultimate in wisdom, love, mercy, and all His ather attributes God's truth MUST be true.
So we Chrsitiansd believe.
Peace and kindnerss,
Fred


Sorry Fred, but that's just sophistry. If we have true free will then he isn't in control. If he can step in and change what happens "according to his wishes", then we don't have free will. You can't have it both ways.

And he's the ultimate only if you believe he is, therefore, his truth imust be true only if you have faith in it. But the definition of truth is something real anf factual. Ergo, truth cannot be based on faith.

Faith can be a wonderful thing. Clearly it brings comfort to many, many people. I am happy for anyone who finds that comfort in faith. But I need to call it as I see it. And that religion is not based on truth, its based on faith. If you want to promote your religion or any religion for that matter, you need to promote it on the basis of what it does for you. Not on it being some all encompassing truth that you can't prove only accept as a matter of faith. As soon as you start arguing that your religion represents the one and only truth you lose me completely.

In other threads I spoke about my beliefs as a deist. I those threads I explained why I am a deist and why it satisfies my spirtual side. At no point did I argue that deism was THE way to believe, only that it was the right way for ME to believe.

ScottGem,
I told you what I believed and why.
Call it what you wish but that is my belief.
Our gift of free will from God causes much grief in the world and much happiness in how it is used.
If you are deist then I think that you might believe that God is a supreme being.
As such He is the only true truth.
Being a supreme being make God perfect and infinite in all His attributes.
Now, what are the attributes of the God in which you believe?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I see you don't understand deism very well. A deist believes that some intelligent force created the universe as we know it. In making this creation certain natural laws were setup to govern things. This force is clearly powerful, but not necessary omnipotent and definitely not omnipresent. So no I don't believe in God as a "Supreme Being". Nor do I believe that whatever intelligent force created us, is watching over us and meddling with things.

Lets liken this to a car manufacturer. The manufacturer designed the car, giving it the abilities to perform its tasks. The car is then placed in the hands of a user. The manufacturer, at this point, does not control or watch over how the car is used.

Whether this intelligent force is still around and watching the results of its creation, I do not know. What I do strongly believe is that the God that you believe in as "the ultimate in wisdom, love, mercy..." could not allow the evils that exist in this world. And yes I understand all the rationalizations to justify those evils while still maintaining those beliefs, so please don't waste our time by repeating them. The bottom line is those rationalizations are based on faith. I see the evils as real and factual, I see the rationalizations as blind faith in some sort of grand design. And I cannot accept blind faith in anything.

ScottGem,
I assure you that my faith is not blind.
My life's experiences dealing with God keep my mind and mind's eye very much open to see and witness more.
Also is some intelligence were able to create the universe, then I'm certain that is supreme over any other that we can conceive of.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I don't take anything on faith, I prefer things to be tangible. I need evidence to believe in something.
Firstly,
ScottGem, for someone who doesn't take anything on faith and who needs evidence to believe in something you make a lot of statements about what you believe in (see next three quotes). Where is the evidence for any of these beliefs?


In other threads I spoke about my beliefs as a deist.


A deist believes that some intelligent force created the universe as we know it.


What I do strongly believe is that the God that you believe in as "the ultimate in wisdom, love, mercy..." could not allow the evils that exist in this world.

Secondly,


But truth is something that can be proven, not something that you just believe on faith.

Actually truth is NOT something that can be proven at all! If you think about it all proofs regarding what is true have at their basis some set of axioms; statements whose truth cannot be proven but just accepted i.e. you need to believe in the truth of the axioms on faith to then be able to prove the truth of the statement that you are interested in.

Thirdly,


And, if "god is in control" as you said earlier, then how do you have choice? The two concepts are contrdictory.

Some would also say that a particle and a wave are two concepts that are contradictory yet light has no trouble being both!

And finally,



And he's the ultimate only if you believe he is, therefore, his truth imust be true only if you have faith in it.

Your argument above is illogical for if an omnipotent God exists, then his existence would NOT depend upon whether anyone believes in him or not. He would therefore be the ultimate irrespective of whether you believe in him or not. His truth, therefore, is NOT, true only if you have faith in it but IS true irrespective of whether you believe in him or not.

ScottGem,
I assure you that my faith is not blind.
My life's experiences dealing with God keep my mind and mind's eye very much open to see and witness more.
Also is some intelligence were able to create the universe, then I'm certain that is supreme over any other that we can conceive of.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

OK, I'll grant you that. I understand that your faith is based on what you have experienced. And I am also sure that you have done a good amount of rumination on how your experiences prove to you that the God of your scriptures is real. But it still boils down to taking things on faith not fact.

A child working with Legos (TM) can create some intricate constructs. But they are still a child. Our universe could simply be the creation of a child playing with toys given by its parents. Yes, an intelligence that could design this universe would seem supreme, but there always remains the possibility that they also answer to a higher power.

Firstly,
ScottGem, for someone who doesn't take anything on faith and who needs evidence to believe in something you make a lot of statements about what you believe in (see next three quotes). Where is the evidence for any of these beliefs?

I've discussed my reasons for being a deist in other threads. I won't go into detail here. I will say simply, that I believe that the complexity of the universe is such that I cannot accept that it happened by accident. So my belief is based on a logical argument. Fact: the design of the universe is extremely complex, ergo it had to be the result of some intelligence.

With the third statement, I again use a logical argument. A being that is allegedly about peace, love, mercy etc. could not (according to my logical thinking) allow the evils of this world. Especially not the evils conducted in its name (the Inquisition, Jihads, etc.).

Now I understand that you can produce a similar logical reasoning. But your rationalization of why these evils are allowed is still based in your faith that your God has some grand design for us.



Actually truth is NOT something that can be proven at all! If you think about it all proofs regarding what is true have at their basis some set of axioms; statements whose truth cannot be proven but just accepted ie you need to believe in the truth of the axioms on faith to then be able to prove the truth of the statement that you are interested in.

Try looking up the definition of truth sometime.


Some would also say that a particle and a wave are two concepts that are contradictory yet light has no trouble being both!

Frankly I know little about physics so don't know how correct that statement is. But I do know that if someone can control what you do or what happens to you, then you do not have true free will.


your argument above is illogical for if an omnipotent God exists, then his existence would NOT depend upon whether anyone believes in him or not. He would therefore be the ultimate irrespective of whether you believe in him or not. His truth, therefore, is NOT, true only if you have faith in it but IS true irrespective of whether you believe in him or not.

We can go round and round on this one. The key here is IF an omnipotent being exists. Before you can accept his existence and therefore his truth, you have to believe in his existence. It's a simple Catch-22.

Scottgem,
Thanks for responding to my post. There are a few things that I must point out since my view of God was objectionable to you.

First, you speak of a Christian's blind faith and trust. Can I point out that you too have also used both emtional actions (blind faith and trust) to respond to my post. You trusted that I was very much real based on a set of "words" that "touched" an emotional chord with you. There was no picture of me or voice. All you had to go on was a title that I called myself and my words. And yet, you responded specifically to me, addressing what I had written because you knew and assumed I was real without any doubt---kind of like a blind faith and trust that you accused Christian's of using. You even supposed that I might write back as I am doing. You say you are a deist. Have you truly considered all things? Before you discount a Christian's belief, you need to read God's Word completely while truly asking God to reveal Himself to you. The only thing you have to lose is your view of God. God has never hid Himself from anyone that was looking for Him.

I was not always a Christian and at times thought as you did. So I can very much understand how you see things. But, as you chose to respond to my post, I did the same thing based on the Bible's post. I read it and asked the God of the Bible to be real to me. That is what He did. That was about 30 years ago. It took faith and trust to step across the line of unbelief. But after taking that step, the True God became my Personal Friend, Personal Savior and Personal Father. And yes, on a daily basis He does talk with me, comforts me and even punishes me as well. He is not like the "Santa" we grew up with finding one day to be "not real." I may not see Him, but He is very much real. I may not hear an audible voice, but I do hear the Words He speaks to my heart. I'm sure to the non-Christian, it looks pretty silly, but to the Christians, our "blinders" have been removed from our eyes, and we now see clearly.

I'm not offended by your post, but I do ask that before you judge Christians and their beliefs that you go searching for the God we serve.
Just remember, you can not see the wind, but it is there. You can feel it, you know it's there, and you ONLY see it when it touches someone or something. It also changes everything that it touches i.e. hair out of place, chill bumps, storms, dust, leaves moving etc. Just something to think about.
Rita

Before you discount a Christian's belief, you need to read God's Word completely while truly asking God to reveal Himself to you.

This really doesn't make sense.

I'm a Deist too, I've read the bible, when to Catholic school for 10 years, which is why I'm a Deist.

You say that we have to ask God to reveal himself to us. The fact is that we don't believe that God is present. How can we ask for something we don't believe in?

It would be like asking Santa Claus to reveal himself.

What was your goal when you read the Bible or went to Catholic school for ten years? Was it something you had to do? I also read the Bible and went to church and I did not know God. I did it because I had to and very seldom could understand what it was saying. There were times, though, that I was curious. However, I was not searching for God. Later as a teenager I began to question what I had heard other Christians saying. That is when I went on my search to finding God. It was more than just reading my Bible and going to church. Those "things" didn't save me. They just pointed me to God. I did take that step of "faith" still wondering if the God that Christians were talking about would actually be a part of my life. God did not dissappoint me. I do understand what you are saying. Human reasoning and logic is a road that most people rely. But it is a road that will lead to a lot of dead-ends. Christians do not claim to have all the answers. But we do serve a God who does. The hardest step a person makes when becoming a Christian is letting go of "what they know" and feel comfortable with and placing their faith and trust in the One who created them.

As I said earlier, if you truly go searching for God, you will find Him. You're right, it would be silly to call on Santa, because we know He is not real. But I must warn you, that seeking God will have different consequences. His reason and logic behind what He does is based on His being in total control and seeing the whole picture at all times. His Word says in Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
(9) For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

I am no longer burdened with trying to "figure it out." We do live in a complex universe that even baffles MY mind. But there is a relief in no one longer having to have all the answers.

Altenweg,
By your own adminsion you are not a Christian because of the way you were treated at that school.
Unforntunately that has happened to others as well.
You were not treated as a true Christian SHOULD treat you.
Please do not blame Christianity for the actions of very poor or bad Christians.
I do believe you read the bible with the way you were treated in that school.
Thus it affected the way and attitude you had when reading it.
Cast you hate or dislike aside as if it were garbage of the mind and heart and reread the bible with an open mind and love of God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Scottgem,
Thanks for responding to my post. There are a few things that I must point out since my view of God was objectionable to you.

Who said it was "objectionable to me"? It is not what I CHOOSE to believe, but I have no problem if you believe it.


First, you speak of a Christian's blind faith and trust. Can I point out that you too have also used both emtional actions (blind faith and trust) to respond to my post. You trusted that I was very much real based on a set of "words" that "touched" an emotional chord with you. There was no picture of me or voice. All you had to go on was a title that I called myself and my words. And yet, you responded specifically to me, addressing what I had written because you knew and assumed I was real without any doubt---kind of like a blind faith and trust that you accused Christian's of using.

Oh please! What, I'm supposed to think that your post appeared out of thin air? Or that some computer program responded to this thread? I have never seen an AI program that sophisticated to post a response like you did. And I don't believe it appeared out of thin air, so there has to be a person sitting at a keyboard somewhere typing into the box.

And your response did not strike an "emotional chord" with me. Rather, I while I have no problem with what you believe, I feel it needs to be clarified as your beliefs, not some statement of fact.


You even supposed that I might write back as I am doing. You say you are a deist. Have you truly considered all things? Before you discount a Christian's belief, you need to read God's Word completely while truly asking God to reveal Himself to you. The only thing you have to lose is your view of God. God has never hid Himself from anyone that was looking for Him.

Again, these are your BELIEFS. I know plenty of people who have not found God no matter how hard they looked. I am not "discounting" your beliefs. I have said time and time again, that I am very glad for people who find comfort in those beliefs. But I do object to people who proselytize that their beliefs are universal and everyone must believe them. This is what I'm getting from the post I am responding to.


It took faith and trust to step across the line of unbelief. But after taking that step, the True God became my Personal Friend, Personal Savior and Personal Father.

Exactly it took faith. And you believe that he talks to you etc. But how can you prove it? Until you can its your belief. Excuse me, but I require more concrete proof. If you can give it to me, I'll be happy to listen.


I'm not offended by your post, but I do ask that before you judge Christians and their beliefs that you go searching for the God we serve.
Just remember, you can not see the wind, but it is there. You can feel it, you know it's there, and you ONLY see it when it touches someone or something. It also changes everything that it touches i.e. hair out of place, chill bumps, storms, dust, leaves moving etc. Just something to think about.
Rita

There is no reason you should be offended. I am not judging Christians for their beliefs, I am simply saying its not the only way to believe and you should not be judging me for my beliefs.

Cast you hate or dislike aside as if it were garbage of the mind and heart and reread the bible with an open mind and love of God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

And if she does that (or has done it), will you then accept that she doesn't believe in the same things you do? Will you accept that she has the right to not believe the same things you do? Will you not think less of her because she has not chosen the same path you have? Wouldn't a "True Christian" do that?

[QUOTE=elscarta;2113792]
Secondly,



Actually truth is NOT something that can be proven at all! If you think about it all proofs regarding what is true have at their basis some set of axioms; statements whose truth cannot be proven but just accepted i.e. you need to believe in the truth of the axioms on faith to then be able to prove the truth of the statement that you are interested in.

Thirdly,



Some would also say that a particle and a wave are two concepts that are contradictory yet light has no trouble being both!



Hi elscarta,

As far as truth is concerned would you allow for two types of truths (leaving aside synthetic apriori)?

You didn't mention analytic truths which can be put into the form of self-evident axioms. Eg. Law of Identity, x(x=x) From these we can derive second order propositions, which as you say are really only based on faith.

Would you agree that the propositions of faith are of the synthetic type.
To put this another way, these are anticedently derived axioms.
Eg. The Identity of Indiscernibles. For any x and y, given that x and y have the same properties, x is identical to y.

The reason I mention this is because of your second comment regarding wave/particle duality. Two non-identical objects which are identical is a contradiction. It seems as though light can violate any principle of identity it likes, at least at the micro level.

ScottGem,
I hope that there in no one here whom is judging you for your beliefs.
I am not.
In most countries that I am aware of it is a person's right to believe as one wishes.
Yes there are some in which that is not the case. In a few a person can lose one's life for not believing as the powers that be demand.
Unfortunately the Taliband and AlQueda are trying to force that on the world.
So enjoy your right to believe as you wish for the time being.
Who knows what will happen or when if the terrorists succeed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

ScottGem,
Yes, I long ago have accepted her belief as she wishes to.
I was just offering some advice concerning why she believe as she does.
It was personal.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I just want to clarify a few things, but I don't feel like quoting everyone, so bear with me.

Yes, I went to Catholic school for 10 years, no, I was not treated well, because I wasn't Catholic, I was Lutheran.

The Lutheran church that we went to treated me very well. I was baptized in the Lutheran religion and at the age of 14 I attended confirmation classes for 2 years and was confirmed in the Lutheran religion.

I'm still very close to the Pastor of my old church. He's a wonderful man. Sadly, he was kicked out of our church because he argued with someone higher up. The church he ended up going to was simply too far away for us to trek to every Sunday.

I was married in the Lutheran church that I went to since coming to Canada at the age of 3 1/2.

I have read the bible with an open mind. Yes, the reason I don't believe in organized religion is because of my experiences in the Catholic school and church that I went to for 10 years. At least that was the case in the beginning.

No, my belief in Deism isn't because I was treated unfairly. My belief in Deism came about because I had questions that no one had answers to. At least not answers that made any sense. When I questioned parts of the bible I was told to just believe, that I wasn't allowed to question, that I should just accept everything I was being told and follow all the other sheep.

I've never been a follower.

I started to ask my parents questions and they encouraged me to find the answers. The answers I found didn't lead to a Christian God. The questions I asked weren't answered in the bible.

I am a Deist because I've exhausted every other option and haven't found an answer that fits as well as Deism does.

Sorry for the length of this post.

Fred, I have to say that you are one of the few Christians that hasn't judged me or condemned me for my beliefs. I think that your faith is one that brings you peace, and you understand what being a true Christian really means. Sadly you are not the norm.

Peace and kindness to you as well Fred. :)

So my belief is based on a logical argument. Fact: the design of the universe is extremely complex, ergo it had to be the result of some intelligence.

The flaw in the above argument is that complexity does not necessarily imply design/intelligence.

Try looking up the Mandelbrot Set (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandelbrot_set) to see how easily complexity can arise from a simple definition.


With the third statement, I again use a logical argument. A being that is allegedly about peace, love, mercy etc. could not (according to my logical thinking) allow the evils of this world. Especially not the evils conducted in its name (the Inquisition, Jihads, etc.).

Now I understand that you can produce a similar logical reasoning. But your rationalization of why these evils are allowed is still based in your faith that your God has some grand design for us.

ScottGem, you do not have a logical argument. The rules of logic are very well defined. You state an absolute negative; a loving God cannot exist due to the presence of evil in the world.

According to the rules of logic you have to show that there is no possible way to reconcile a loving God with the presence of evil. On the other hand, to disprove your argument logically, all I have to do is provide a way to reconcile a loving God with the presence of evil in this world.

As you have stated "God has some grand design for us" is one way to reconcile a loving God with the evil in the world. So by your own admission you have shown the flaw in your argument being a logical one.

Now before you start saying that this reason is based on faith, it is not important whether you believe the reason is true, the fact that there is a possible reason is enough to invalidate your logical argument.

What you are left with is an emotive argument so please do not continue to say that you have a logical reason for not believing in a loving God.



Try looking up the definition of truth sometime.

This reply shows me that you do not understand the philosophical implications of statements regarding truth and proof. Have you read about Plato's views of the Ideal, and the concept of Absolute Truth?



Frankly I know little about physics so don't know how correct that statement is. But I do know that if someone can control what you do or what happens to you, then you do not have true free will.

It is easy to verify my statement about light just Google dual nature of light.

Also just because God is able to control what you do doesn't mean he will control what you do. Also even if God controls what happens to you doesn't mean that you are not free to choose how to respond to what is happening to you.

"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink".

The God I believe in certainly guides my life and uses my free choices, even if they go against what he wishes for me, in the best possible way to bring about his grand design.


We can go round and round on this one. The key here is IF an omnipotent being exists. Before you can accept his existence and therefore his truth, you have to believe in his existence. It's a simple Catch-22.

You have missed the point of my reply. Your original point was

his truth imust be true only if you have faith in it.

In other words you believe that the truth about God is dependent upon a person's belief in God. This is false!

The truth about God's existence/non-existence does NOT depend upon what anyone believes. You cannot wish away the existence of God (if he exists) just as I cannot wish his existence (if he doesn't exist).

As far as truth is concerned would you allow for two types of truths (leaving aside synthetic apriori)?

You didn't mention analytic truths which can be put into the form of self-evident axioms. Eg. Law of Identity, x(x=x) From these we can derive second order propositions, which as you say are really only based on faith.

Would you agree that the propositions of faith are of the synthetic type.
To put this another way, these are anticedently derived axioms.
Eg. The Identity of Indiscernibles. For any x and y, given that x and y have the same properties, x is identical to y.


Tut, could you please elaborate on your post as I am not sure what you think the two types of truths are.

Also what exactly do you mean by anticedently derived axioms?

Who said it was "objectionable to me"? It is not what I CHOOSE to believe, but I have no problem if you believe it.



Oh please! What, I'm supposed to think that your post appeared out of thin air? Or that some computer program responded to this thread?? I have never seen an AI program that sophisticated to post a response like you did. And I don't believe it appeared out of thin air, so there has to be a person sitting at a keyboard somewhere typing into the box.

And your response did not strike an "emotional chord" with me. Rather, I while I have no problem with what you believe, I feel it needs to be clarified as your beliefs, not some statement of fact.



Again, these are your BELIEFS. I know plenty of people who have not found God no matter how hard they looked. I am not "discounting" your beliefs. I have said time and time again, that I am very glad for people who find comfort in those beliefs. But I do object to people who proselytize that their beliefs are universal and everyone must believe them. This is what I'm getting from the post I am responding to.



Exactly it took faith. And you believe that he talks to you etc. But how can you prove it? Until you can its your belief. Excuse me, but I require more concrete proof. If you can give it to me, I'll be happy to listen.



There is no reason you should be offended. I am not judging Christians for their beliefs, I am simply saying its not the only way to believe and you should not be judging me for my beliefs.

Sorry if you thought I was judging you for what you believe. It was not my intent. I only wanted to point out why I see things the way I do. And, you are right, it is hard to explain the somewhat unexplainable, especially if you are wanting physical proof.

I never meant to convert you either. My comments were never meant to be abrasive or harsh. If so, I do apologize.

Rita

Tut, could you please elaborate on your post as I am not sure what you think the two types of truths are.

Also what exactly do you mean by anticedently derived axioms?

Hello elscarta,

I wasn't very clear before, so I'll give it another go.

The first type of truth I was referring to is that of a logical axiom that formulates as a tautology. I n the case of identity I am assuming that x(x=x) is a tautology and therefore holds universally true. I was assuming you didn't include these types of self-evident truths because they don't have to be based on faith.

The second type of truth ( which I think you say are taken on faith) are those truths which can be derived from the logical axiom that was formulated as a tautology These subsequent truths are not tautologies but based on qualitative properties that a thing can exhibit. I thought my second example of, Identity of Indiscernible 'fitted the bill'.

These types of formulations don't need to be formulated as axioms.
"antecedently supposed axioms" was a bad choice of words on my part.

Not sure what this has to do with the thread, but anyway.

Regards
Tut

I never meant to convert you either. My comments were never meant to be abrasive or harsh. If so, I do apologize.

Rita

There is nothing to apologize for. All I was doing in my response was to clarify your statements as your beliefs, not provable statements of fact.


The flaw in the above argument is that complexity does not necessarily imply design/intelligence.

No flaw at all. I look at the complex interaction of biology, geology, physics, chemistry etc. and I see intelligent design. I see two potential explanations for the universe as it exists, either random events or intelligent design. Because my sense of logic impels me to disbelieve in random events, I believe in an intelligent design.


ScottGem, you do not have a logical argument. The rules of logic are very well defined. You state an absolute negative; a loving God cannot exist due to the presence of evil in the world.

As you have stated "God has some grand design for us" is one way to reconcile a loving God with the evil in the world. So by your own admission you have shown the flaw in your argument being a logical one.
Now before you start saying that this reason is based on faith, it is not important whether you believe the reason is true, the fact that there is a possible reason is enough to invalidate your logical argument.

Sorry, but I don't accept that. According to you one can propose any possibility to negate an argument. I'm not sure where you are getting your rules of logic, but then don't jive with what I've been taught.

Premise: God is loving, peaceful and moral.

Evil is the antitheses of love, peace and morality.

Conclusion: a loving God would not allow such Evil as exists.

There is nothing wrong with my logic or conclusion. You may not agree with my conclusion because you believe there are reasons that a loving God would allow such Evil is rationalization. You may come to a different conclusion based on your beliefs and your rationalization. But that does not negate my logic in any way.

Hi Scott,

I just noticed your syllogism. If I can make a suggestion. One of the first things I would do is leave out of the conclusion are words like ,'such' 'allow' and 'exist' because they are not in your premises.

Hi Scott,

I just noticed your syllogism. If I can make a suggestion. One of the first things I would do is leave out of the conclusion are words like ,'such' 'allow' and 'exist' because they are not in your premises.

Premise: God is omnipotent, loving, peaceful and moral.

Evil is the antitheses of love, peace and morality.

Conclusion: an omnipotent, loving God would not allow Evil.

Do you like that better? I still need the allow in the conclusion otherwise it doesn't make sense.

Premise: God is omnipotent, loving, peaceful and moral.

Evil is the antitheses of love, peace and morality.

Conclusion: an omnipotent, loving God would not allow Evil.

Do you like that better? I still need the allow in the conclusion otherwise it doesn't make sense.

ScottGem, by including "allow" in your conclusion you have broken the rules of logical arguments since the introduction of a new idea in your conclusion does not follow logically from your stated premises.

If you wish to use "allow" in your conclusion then rephrase your premises to include "allow".

The following is an example of a logical argument based on your premises.


Premise:
God is omnipotent, loving, peaceful and moral.

Evil is the antitheses of love, peace and morality.

Conclusion: God is not Evil.

As you can see the conclusion does not contain anything which is not already define in the premises and the structure of the argument is valid.

a = b
c = not b
therefore a = not c

For a more in depth explanation of both what makes a valid argument and what makes an invalid argument (fallacy) check out the links below.

Arguments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument)

List of Fallacies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies#Informal_fallacies)

elscarta,
You have made a very good point.
Thanks for that and the links.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

If you wish to use "allow" in your conclusion then rephrase your premises to include "allow".



Your example is not valid because it does not say what I want it to say. Nor have you made a very good point. I have said very clearly and specifically, that my argument is based on what makes sense to me. I have stated that I am not trying to present a universal truth. I am not trying to prove to you or anyone that my conclusion is the only one out there.

I will state this one more time. I do not believe that an omnipotent being, as portrayed in the Bible with the ideals of love and peace and morality could allow or condone the level of tragedy and evil that exists in the world. Ergo, I have to come to the conclusion that there is no being that is watching what happens, making decisions about what happens, listening to and acting on prayers etc. That is my conclusion based on my values and my way of reasoning.

I understand that other people may come to different conclusions because they place faith in the concept that God has some grand plan that tragedy and evil is a part of. I am happy for those people and am glad they can find comfort in that faith. I CANNOT! I have not come lightly to this conclusion. Nor am I alone in this conclusion. Last night I watched the movie Employee of the Month, where these very same conclusions were made by the main character.

So, if you want to state what you BELIEVE and why feel free to do so. I have no concrete proof that you are wrong, just as you have no concrete proof that you are right.

Your example is not valid because it does not say what I want it to say.
I never said that I was trying to say what you wanted to say. I was giving you an example of a logical conclusion that can be drawn from your two premises and showing you how the conclusion follows from those premises in the hope that you could then see how you should phrase your premises and conclusions so that they are logically valid.


Nor have you made a very good point.
The point I was making was regards to the structure of a logical argument not to whether your argument is correct or not. Acura understood this.

Furthermore just because an argument is logically structured does not make it necessarily true.

For example consider the following argument.

Premise:
All men are evil.

Peter is a man.

Conclusion:
Peter is evil.

This argument is logically structured, this means that the conclusion follows logically from the premises. But the conclusion is false since the first premise is false.


I do not believe that an omnipotent being, as portrayed in the Bible with the ideals of love and peace and morality could allow or condone the level of tragedy and evil that exists in the world. Ergo, I have to come to the conclusion that there is no being that is watching what happens, making decisions about what happens, listening to and acting on prayers etc. That is my conclusion based on my values and my way of reasoning.

ScottGem, what I have been asking for in my last two posts is for you to explicate your line of reasoning and so far you have not done that.

Maybe if you answer these questions I can work out what your line of reasoning is.

Which one of the four attributes that you have listed(omnipotent, love, peace or morality) do you see necessitates not allowing or condoning the level of tragedy and evil?

Or is it a combination of more that one of them?

Try leaving out each attribute in turn, do you come to the same conclusion in each case?

Also, not directly related to the above;

I have read that some Deists believe in an afterlife, what is your position on this?

And am I right in surmising that you believe in "free-will"?

elscarta,
I also will be interested in any answers to the questions you asked Scottgem.
Fred

I will state this one more time. I do not believe that an omnipotent being, as portrayed in the Bible with the ideals of love and peace and morality could allow or condone the level of tragedy and evil that exists in the world. Ergo, I have to come to the conclusion that there is no being that is watching what happens, making decisions about what happens, listening to and acting on prayers etc. That is my conclusion based on my values and my way of reasoning.

I understand that other people may come to different conclusions because they place faith in the concept that God has some grand plan that tragedy and evil is a part of. I am happy for those people and am glad they can find comfort in that faith. I CANNOT! I have not come lightly to this conclusion. Nor am I alone in this conclusion. Last night I watched the movie Employee of the Month, where these very same conclusions were made by the main character.

So, if you want to state what you BELIEVE and why feel free to do so. I have no concrete proof that you are wrong, just as you have no concrete proof that you are right.

I said I will state this ONCE more. I think I have made my position abundantly clear and have answered any questions asked.

Scottgem,
That's interesting. I do not agree.
Sorry about that but that's the way I am.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Furthermore just because an argument is logically structured does not make it necessarily true.

For example consider the following argument.

Premise:
All men are evil.

Peter is a man.

Conclusion:
Peter is evil.



And where does logic leave us when we view the aspects of Hope = gives mankind the opportunity to become right with God and HIS fellowman.

Should we always leave hope within every man's heart and mind?

And where does logic leave us when we view the aspects of Hope = gives mankind the opportunity to become right with God and HIS fellowman.

Should we always leave hope within every man's heart and mind?

Hi sndbay,

I was just interested in the way you use the equal sign, e.g.. Hope =
Usually that shows that something is equal to something else. There are at least four different ways 'is' can be used, all of which carry a different meaning.

For example, 'Superman IS Clark Kent' or Superman=Clark Kent. Formulated in this way we are saying that Superman and Clark Kent have exactly the same attributes. The two are really one and the same.

How you have formulated, "hope= gives mankind the opportunity to become right with God HIS fellowman" seems to be using 'is' in the predicate form. In other words, hope is what you have said it is, but it can be many other things as well. In the predicate form it is not restricted to the definition you have given.

You wouldn't think such a little word could cause so much confusion in language.

And where does logic leave us when we view the aspects of Hope = gives mankind the opportunity to become right with God and HIS fellowman.


I see no problem with Hope and logic.

Following on from my previous example.

Premise:
Peter is evil.

Hope exists. (opportunity to become right with God and HIS fellowman)

Conclusion:

Peter has opportunity to become right with God and HIS fellowman.





Should we always leave hope within every man's heart and mind?

This question does not relate to the structure of a logical argument. Personally I believe that there is always hope. I base this on experience that has shown me that even in what appears the most hopeless of situations people can still change for the better.

This question does not relate to the structure of a logical argument. Personally I believe that there is always hope. I base this on experience that has shown me that even in what appears the most hopeless of situations people can still change for the better.


You're basing your post on your belief. When will you understand that your belief isn't the one and only belief? That's not a logical argument, that's just you telling everyone that your belief is the right one.

Proof, that's what a Deist needs. Until you can provide proof for your beliefs they remain just that, your beliefs. Beliefs aren't based on evidence, they're based on what you feel.

You're basing your post on your belief. When will you understand that your belief isn't the one and only belief? That's not a logical argument, that's just you telling everyone that your belief is the right one.

Proof, that's what a Deist needs. Until you can provide proof for your beliefs they remain just that, your beliefs. Beliefs aren't based on evidence, they're based on what you feel.

Hello Altenweg,
Beliefs do require proof if we wish to communicate them to other people. If we just communicate a belief without proof then we have a situation whereby everyone has their own beliefs and these beliefs are subjective.
This gives rise to a situation whereby we are unable to test our beliefs against the belief of others. Normally the test is in the form of a logical argument.

For example, if I were a Deist (which I am not ) I could say that I BELIEVE we live in a probabilistic universe in which the laws of probability have to be obeyed, even by God. Once God has set the laws in motion he has a restricted role. ( I think that is what Deists claim?)

I could put this BELIEF to the test in the form of a LOGICAL syllogism.

Premise(1) Probability accounts for Gods greatness
Premise (2) Gods greatness accounts for goodness.
Conclusion Probability accounts for goodness.

I hope this helps

Thank you Acura for the informative post.
I do not wish to argue the existence of God nor satan. I would like to, however, discuss the article and the points that it makes.
As stated, it says how and why satan tries to destroy mankind and God's creation. The destruction of man's spirit has more of an impact on God's intent then mortal death itself. I would think that for a person to die by some cataclysmic event is less destructive than destroying a man's spirit itself, which gives into much more devistation. It is not of much gain to satan to merely kill a man, but if he can separate his family, cause him despair, take away his goodness and confidence, it will have much more of an impact to himself and his generations than just killing him. The death of one's spirit is of more use to satan's plot than mortal death itself. It can drive a man to turn away from God which is exactly satan's goal.
Satan has no interest in those who do not follow God, they are not in his way and he has no use for them, for they are already doing his work. It's those who walk with God that are satan's enemies. Through satan's malicious and deceptive works, he murders, kills and destroys man in both the spiritual and the mortal scales.
As far as that little chart that shows who killed more, God or satan, well I don't know what children's book that came out of, because it sure wasn't the bible. All this talk about "logic", if applied, would prove a very different scenario.
Thank you again Acura, the article was very informative and relative. I would like to talk to you more on the subject as originally posted.

sabrewolfe,
Thank you.
Your post was well though out.
I agree that with your thoughts on this.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

As far as that little chart that shows who killed more, God or satan, well I don't know what childrens book that came out of, because it sure wasn't the bible.

If you read the post where that chart was posted, it said that it came from counting Biblical passages about people smitten by God. If you read the other posts discussing that particular issue, I'm not sure how you can make the above statement. At least four bibilical incidents were mentioned (the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.) that accounted for many thousands of lives lost due to God's direct actions. That the Bible states that God has directly killed many people by his actions is irrefutable.

You can argue that killings were justified and that they were done as part of God's vision for the world and on and on. I'm not getting into that argument. But to argue the fact that he has. To say that chart didn't come from biblical passages, to attribute it to a children's book, just makes you look foolish.

Check this article and tell me that chart didn't come from the Bible:
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2007/01/how-many-has-god-killed-complete-list.html

Googling how many people has God killed brings up several similar sites. And the totals are very close to each other.

As far as that little chart that shows who killed more, God or satan, well I don't know what childrens book that came out of, because it sure wasn't the bible.
I believe it is based on the bible:
Dwindling In Unbelief: How many has God killed? (http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/how-many-has-god-killed.html)

Altenweg, I don't understand where all your angst against what I have posted is coming from.

You're basing your post on your belief.
And what am I supposed to base my post on?
Also I specifically qualified my last post with "I believe" as ScottGem asked for in post #36.

When will you understand that your belief isn't the one and only belief?
Where did I claim that my belief is the one and only belief?


That's not a logical argument, that's just you telling everyone that your belief is the right one.
Again where am I specifically telling everyone that my belief is the right one?


Proof, that's what a Deist needs.
But apparently some Deists find it difficult to articulate their own reasons and formulate logical arguments and refuse to supply proof of their own beliefs.

Also don't claim to need proof if you are not prepared to read and discuss the proof that is provided.

My only issue, if they don't beleive in God, then how do they beleive that "god" killed all of the people.

You can't not beleive when it serves your purpose and then beleive to make a point.

You hit it on nail so accurately.

You hit it on nail so accurately.

You may not have seen the answer to Chuck's post. Its not that we believe it, we were just relating what the Bible says.

You may not have seen the answer to Chuck's post. Its not that we believe it, we were just relating what the Bible says.
I was going to post the same thing but I figured they would just disregard it.

If you read the post where that chart was posted, it said that it came from counting Biblical passages about people smitten by God. If you read the other posts discussing that particular issue, I'm not sure how you can make the above statement. At least four bibilical incidents were mentioned (the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.) that accounted for many thousands of lives lost due to God's direct actions. That the Bible states that God has directly killed many people by his actions is irrefutable.

You can argue that killings were justified and that they were done as part of God's vision for the world and on and on. I'm not getting into that argument. But to argue the fact that he has. To say that chart didn't come from biblical passages, to attribute it to a children's book, just makes you look foolish.

Check this article and tell me that chart didn't come from the Bible:
Dwindling In Unbelief: How many has God killed? (Complete list and estimated total) (http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2007/01/how-many-has-god-killed-complete-list.html)

Googling how many people has God killed brings up several similar sites. And the totals are very close to each other.

I would not dare make the statement that the killings were any part of God's vision for the world, that would be very foolish. Anyone who has read the bible, logically, would surely see that for themselves. God's plan was to create man and give him an eternal life without the fear of death or sorrow. He had also created him with a freewill, so that man would be unique, and have his own sense of self awareness that he could also be happy. Satan's plan was to do anything he could to destroy God's plan, so he deceives man through this freewill. That is the only way that satan can affect man. Compared to God or satan, man is as a child. Man has very little understanding compared to either. No matter how advanced we evolve, we will never have the ability to match the ability or understanding of either God or satan. Which is one of the reasons God gave his son as a sacrifice to us, which I won't get into. God has always given us a choice and a warning to those choices. Just as in sodom and gamorah, those people were given the choice and warned about the consequences. Of course, satan is always working hard to make sure that man makes the wrong ones. It is such an amazing deception, using ways that are in most ways incomprehencable. God promises those who follow him an eternal life beyond this mortal one. Satan promises nothing, and will not only try to destroy you here, but also keep you from God's truth and eternal life as he did with Adam and Eve. So to say that God has killed would be totally the opposite from truth. Man decided to follow the wrong path in the beginning, and every death from there on out has been the direct influence of satan, not God. And to be fair, if you would like to blame man as well, then I would have to agree. For if it wasn't the week mind of man to listen to a lie in the beginning instead of listening to God, then death would not have happened.

Which is one of the reasons God gave his son as a sacrifice to us, which I won't get into .


And to be fair, if you would like to blame man as well, then I would have to agree. For if it wasn't the week mind of man to listen to a lie in the beginning instead of listening to God, then death would not have happened.

Sabrewolfe, Wonderfully said with a heart of love, praise and glory shown to God. But we as children of God, can't leave out what Christ brought to us.

If mankind could stop pointing the finger and be accountable to their own actions, what a difference it would make to us all. One finger points the blame, and three fingers point back at yourself.

God's finish work is in HIS grace that was sent to us. We can not continue to think, we have no hope of being all that He created us to be. In the begotten Son of God we are begotten again (1 Peter 1:3). The one death we are offered without fear is on the cross with Christ. Crucified with Christ (Gal 2:20) and then able to raise from the dead with Christ once we are baptized, living here on earth in newness of life (Romans 6:4 Col 2:12) In Christ righteousness, we are born again like mankind was before Adam and Eve were beguiled by the devil. Created in HIS likeness as Genesis 1:26-27 had written.

We today have the same request God gave Adam and Eve because we have the newness of life through Christ' blood, and through baptism. Live in obedience of God's will! Christ was the branch of righteousness promised to HIS children.

If mankind choose to die a second death that is without Christ, it is mankind's "free will" that has chosen to do so. We should not fear the death with Christ, but fear the second death of the soul that is chosen in following satan. The devil does attempt to take mankind's soul and the lust of disobedience with him to hell.

Christ made us perfect in HIM. Follow Christ in righteousness, bearing the cross, and flee from the devil.

~grace be with you all



Refer offered in proof to the Spirit of truth. Read them, it's your choice.
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Realize we do not die when we leave this world, but our souls return to God in heaven. It is love for your flesh body that has a desire to live on earth where we are presently. Trust God, there is a better home above with HIM.

So to say that God has killed would be totally the opposite from truth.

You obviously haven't paid much attention to what has been said on this subject. I'm not saying that God has killed, I don't believe in a God that takes direct action as described in the bible. All I have done is refer to the biblical passages that state that God killed people. So, in fact, that God has killed is biblical truth.

All the rest of your post deals with WHY God killed. You use the example of Sodom and Gomorrah and you state, accurately, that they were given a choice to turn away from their evil ways. I have never said that God was not justified in killing (according to the bible) or that these killings occurred arbitrarily and not because of the wrong choices people made, etc.

All I have done is state that, according to the Bible, God has killed over 2 million people. This is irrefutable, so please stop trying to refute it. You can try to justify those killings all you want, I won't argue on that score. But the statement I quoted is not valid. Again, I'm not saying that God has killed, the Bible is!

So the only valid answer is something like:

"Yes God has killed millions, but he has done so because..."

But to make the statement you did is to deny what the Bible says.

You obviously haven't paid much attention to what has been said on this subject. I'm not saying that God has killed, I don't believe in a God that takes direct action as described in the bible. All I have done is refer to the biblical passages that state that God killed people. So, in fact, that God has killed is biblical truth.



Scott, I do not disagree with what you have said. God our Father has shown how He, throughout the OT destroyed evil, and the wickness that came to this world. How the people were unable to overcome or conquer satan.

What was of the OT and is today of the NT has changed what will occur today. God's work is done in Christ Jesus. We are allowed the hope of HIS calling in ONE Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father of all, above all and through us all.

It is up to us today, to put evil at the feet of Christ. What the devil does today is like the scripture say concern people falling asleep and not watching carefully in doing righteously. The devil is a enemy force that can effect our life. And the devil goes up against those he wants to capture, and cause them to hate, lie, and kill. Satan tempts us hourly to follow the desires of lust and worldly treasures in disobedience of God's Will.

God the Father leaves evil within the world so not to destroy the hope of each coming to answer the call of hope. God's hope has Christ standing at the door ready to come into the hearts of those that are willing to follow. We that are willing to follow in obedience today, must set the example, and pray for those who are beguiled by satan.

We war today against evil and wickedness. In hope of conquering satan and his followers. We find hope and justice in law and military power to help give us in protection, peace, and love for all mankind. We try to look out for each other, and that is a very loving and righteous gift to give to others.

Does death come by this battle taking place today? Or was death of the flesh in the OT a final existence for those taken? No I don't believe death of the flesh is final. They have returned to the Father, and were placed on one side of the gulf that puts division between good and evil until the return of Christ. I trust in the God of the living, who calls in hope, and does not make puppets out of HIS children. I believe in HIS glory and power, knowing He answers HIS children in their prayer. Knowing we suffer at the hand of satan and can fall in his darkness.

~ in Christ

Scott, I do not disagree with what you have said.

Ok, so you retract your statement "So to say that God has killed would be totally the opposite from truth." Thank you!

As for the rest of your response, you are welcome to your beliefs. I'm sorry, but they are not anywhere near my beliefs.

Ok, so you retract your statement "So to say that God has killed would be totally the opposite from truth." Thank you!

As for the rest of your response, you are welcome to your beliefs. I'm sorry, but they are not anywhere near my beliefs.

Scott, love you lots, but it wasn't Sandbay that said "So to say that God has killed would be totally the opposite from truth" it was Sabrewolf that said that.

I'll go hide in the corner now. ;)

Ooops. Sorry sndbay, sabrewolfe.

Ok, so you retract your statement "So to say that God has killed would be totally the opposite from truth." Thank you!

My statement was never such as that. The spirit of truth in scripture tells us that evil was and will continued to be destroyed. When God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it, HE then beheld and repented him for doing it. God said that evil will perish, and it is their reward for unrighteousness. They have forsaken the right way to go their own way.



As for the rest of your response, you are welcome to your beliefs. I'm sorry, but they are not anywhere near my beliefs.

I am never sorry for what I believe, and rest in the branch of righteousness God delivered to us. God will never forsake us, and has spoken the spirit of truth through HIS begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

sndbay,
There are times when it seems that God has forsaken a person but one must keep in mind the whole picture.
For instance it just happened to me.
The doctor told me that the new pain I was experiencing was die to the fact that I had developed 2 hernias, one large and one small.
This is on top of the fact that I am a diabetic with bad legs and a colostomy pouch to catch my body waste.
I must keep in mind that in a couple of months I'll be 77 years old and my health problems are due to my former life style and the consequences of living in this world.
None of them are due to God's fault.
In fact I should be surprised that I have lived this long.
I think that God is keeping here for some reason.
I think it may be in answer to my prayers that with His help I can still in some way be of service to Him and His people.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sndbay,
There are times when it seems that God has forsaken a person but one must keep in mind the whole picture.
Never should it be spoken that God forsakes us. Man forsakes himself, and others, but God's promise is true in HIS Word and in Grace given to us.



For instance it just happened to me.
The doctor told me that the new pain I was experiencing was die to the fact that I had developed 2 hernias, one large and one small.
This is on top of the fact that I am a diabetic with bad legs and a colostomy pouch to catch my body waste.
I must keep in mind that in a couple of months I'll be 77 years old and my health problems are due to my former life style and the consequences of living in this world.
None of them are due to God's fault.
The body or flesh is of this world, does walks in danger of corruption, and suffers. Men that committe fornication, do sin against their own body. To committe fornication is to give one's self in love to another. Men do this in disobedience, when they do not obey the commandments. Loving God above all is to be members within the body of Christ.. His flesh and His bones. This is not a building built by man, but this body is the Saviour Christ Jesus. Walking as one with Christ having the spirit to walk in HIS righteousness.

Men talk and speak words of Christ, but they forget that Christ Himself spoke not HIS own words, but what was given by the Father for Him to speak. Men were given those same Words of Truth in the Word of God, yet they turn and go astray to teach their own doctrine and reap in their own traditions.

This world reaps of generations in darkness, but we are called to follow the light in Our Lord Christ Jesus. The fruit of goodness and righteousness to prove everything acceptable in the eyes of God, and doing HIS Will on earth as it is in heaven. Unity in One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father above all, through all and in us all.

Deny your flesh body, and follow Christ!

Fred, may you be all God created you to be. In HIS strength, and will to be done. May evil bow down and flee from you, so that no harm is done. In Jesus Name we pray. Amen



In fact I should be surprised that I have lived this long.
I think that God is keeping here for some reason.
I think it may be in answer to my prayers that with His help I can still in some way be of service to Him and His people.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
One death to die on the cross with Christ Jesus. Raised in baptism to live and follow the light in Christ Jesus.

Children of the promise,
~in Christ

You obviously haven't paid much attention to what has been said on this subject. I'm not saying that God has killed, I don't believe in a God that takes direct action as described in the bible. All I have done is refer to the biblical passages that state that God killed people. So, in fact, that God has killed is biblical truth.


Scott, where do I begin on this one. In that statement alone, you contradict yourself. First you say that you are not saying that God has killed, that you don't believe in a God that takes direct action as described in the bible. Then you say that you are referring to biblical passages that state God killed people and then you state it as fact that God has killed is biblical truth. Well, which statement do you want to stick with? If you don't personally believe in a God that directly takes life, then you are saying that the bible is a lie according to your statements. And if that is the case, what bible or theological record do you draw your conclusions for your own beliefs?
First of all, I totally agree with you in that I also do not believe that God directly takes life. It was not his decision that man would ever die. The bible states that fact. God created everything, the whole universe, and set the rules in motion for everything to operate accordingly. We were not created for it, but it was created for us. Within it, we had rules and bounds to live by. But because man decided to break those rules, with the direct influence of satan, we chose death as a result for all existence. We chose that penalty, not God.
Let's say as an example, that a man is standing in front of a large fire. The man knows that the fire is extremely hot. He knows that the fire can destroy him without taking a college course in physics, he was given all the natural senses to easily make his conclusions. The man also knows that the elements involved for this fire to exist, the wood, the oxygen, the very materials used to ignite the fire, were not created by him, but by God. And God also endowed the man with all of his senses to understand the rules of the fire, that the fire is hot and can destroy his flesh if not used with caution. So through all these gifts, man, through his freewill, can use this fire as he so wishes- to keep him warm, to cook his food, to bring light to darkness. Now let's say, for what ever reason, the man decides to jump into the fire, knowing full well what the fire will do to him. The man burns severely and dies. Who do we blame for the man's death? Do we blame God for creating what was necessary for the fire to exist and creating the physics of the fire to be destructive? Or the man for choosing, despite his knowledge of the fires ability to destroy him, to jump into it? This same analogy applies to every death in the bible. And the outcome of those questions give the same answer to who has killed.

sabrewolfe,
I found your analogy on the man and fire to be very interesting and informative.
Thanks.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

sabrewolfe,
I found your analogy on the man and fire to be very interesting and informative.
Thanks.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Yes, it is interesting and it also highlights another interesting area. That is, determinism versus free will. We could state the problem in this way:

Determinism says that God is all-powerful and all-knowing. He has controlled everything that has taken place and he will control everything that will take place in the future. He knows that an insect has been squashed underfoot and he knows all of our innermost thoughts.

This being the case God knows beforehand every choice we are going to make and the outcomes of that choice. In other words, what everyone does is predestined and predetermined by God.

Given the fact that there are different formulations of determinism, where does free will fit into the equation? I don't know the answer. I would like to think that the above formulation is the answer,but that doesn't say much for free will.

TUT,
I have pondered that often long ago.
I think that the answer to that is that our free will may be known by God, and that he knows what it will be before we make it BUT... we are still the ones who make that choice.
Had we not made it God would know have had foreknowledge of it because it was never made.
Such is the situation. It is not that God interfered with our free will in any way for I believe he does not do so.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Determinism, a concept that would seem true, but would be the direct opposite of God's intent itself. God's word is all truth, the purest whole of truth. When he gave man his freewill, he gave man power of his own destiny through his own choices and own mind. If God were to know exactly what man's next move would be, why would he have tested man from the beginning? If he were to know man would have failed the test of eating from the forbidden tree, what would be his point in creating the situation in the first place? God does not create useless situations in which he knows the outcome just to amuse hisself. No, God's whole purpose of creating man was for his creation to decide for himself that he loved his creator by his own accord. Otherwise, what benefit would it be to God? Why wouldn't he just create beings who were predictable, those who couldn't make their own decisions, just to have servants to worship him. As with the angels, they were also created to have freewill. In all their heavenly knowledge, they too can decide for themselves, just as Lucifer did. If God knew that, why would he have created him?
Of course, there is much of God's creation that is pre-determined, and he has used this pre-determination throughout time. Just as man can predict the actions of his creations, as an engineer who creates a machine, so does God. God designed the heavens and the earth, and knew when certain things would happen, as in the great flood. He knew when the water underneath the earth would be under enough pressure to spring from the ground, as it did.

sabrewolfe,
True.
God being God knows all throughout what we call time,
But...
Because there is no time as God knows it for he IS timeless, he can and does see into what we call the future.
But...
God does not interfere with our free will which often gets we humans into am lot of trouble often for many.

Just look at the world wide war concerning terrorists whose free will is based on hate and violence.
Rape, murder, and other terrible thing we humans do is based on free will.
Also the good things people do are based on free will.
Those good are the things that God likes to see us do with our free will.
It is a practice that I hope and pray that all mankind will come to do in the future starting in this year of 2010.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Yes, it is interesting and it also highlights another interesting area. That is, determinism versus free will. We could state the problem in this way:

Determinism says that God is all-powerful and all-knowing.
True!


He has controlled everything that has taken place and he will control everything that will take place in the future.
Not true! God has relinquished control over humans and what we do. He has given us free will.


He knows that an insect has been squashed underfoot and he knows all of our innermost thoughts.
True.


This being the case God knows beforehand every choice we are going to make and the outcomes of that choice. In other words, what everyone does is predestined and predetermined by God.
The problem with this statement is that it assumes that God is in our timeline and at our present and that the future is still to happen. For God there is no difference between the past, present and future for God is outside of our timeline. So God knows what "has happened" in the future in the same way as we know what has happened in the past.

The other problem with this statement is that it does not follow logically that because God knows the future he therefore controls the future.

True!


Not true! God has relinquished control over humans and what we do. He has given us free will.


True.


The problem with this statement is that it assumes that God is in our timeline and at our present and that the future is still to happen. For God there is no difference between the past, present and future for God is outside of our timeline. So God knows what "has happened" in the future in the same way as we know what has happened in the past.

The other problem with this statement is that it does not follow logically that because God knows the future he therefore controls the future.


Hi elscarta,

I still see an inherent problem if we are prepared to accept determinism and free will at the same time.

Consider this paradox:

I can remember the past, but if I could remember the future as well then that would demonstrate I can control the future. What it also shows is that I don't have free will.

For example, In the future I know that I went on a quiz show and I had a choice of two doors. Behind the first door was a million dollars, behind the second door was nothing. I chose the first door and dramatically changed my life and the lives of other people.

If I decided that I am going to exercise my free will I might deliberately and foolishly choose the wrong door. To do so would negate determinism.

In this world free will and determinism are incompatible.

God does not exist within our timeline, true. He is ageless and timeless. But God created the heavens and the earth and it's inhabitants to exist within a timeline. So how could God know it's future? Better yet, why would he want to?
God is not as complex as everyone thinks he is. Were we not created in his image? That goes beyond physical capacities.
What benefit would it be to God to create something only to know it's every move and it's destiny?
God created man for man to WANT to follow him, not because it is pre-destined that he does so.
God relinquished man's destiny to man alone, from the very beginning.
When we try to make God out to be too complex, we lose further understanding of him.

sabrewolfe,
I believe that God is far more complex than we think He is.
The attributes and abilities of God are far more than we mortals can understand.
God the Father and the Holy Ghost are spirits with the knowledge and power to create this very vast universe and life within it. Do you think there is anyone here who can fully contemplate that humungous ability?
I think not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Hi elscarta,

I still see an inherent problem if we are prepared to accept determinism and free will at the same time.

Consider this paradox:

I can remember the past, but if I could remember the future as well then that would demonstrate I can control the future. What it also shows is that I don't have free will.

For example, In the future I know that I went on a quiz show and I had a choice of two doors. Behind the first door was a million dollars, behind the second door was nothing. I chose the first door and dramatically changed my life and the lives of other people.

If I decided that I am going to exercise my free will I might deliberately and foolishly choose the wrong door. To do so would negate determinism.

In this world free will and determinism are incompatible.

Tut, God is the one who can remember the future not us!

The way I see it our future, for God, is predetermined by our future selves.

Let me try to explain this using your example.

In the future you are on a quiz show and are asked to choose one of the two doors. You have free will so you could choose either of the two doors. Now at the moment you don't know which door you will choose and in fact until the instant that you choose you still don't know for certain which door you would choose (you may have made a decision about which door you would choose but you could still change your mind in that last instant). Eventually there is a moment when your future self will make that decision, using free will.

Now God can see the future as well as he can see the past so he can see your future self making that decision and so knows the decision that you freely choose to make.

Furthermore free will provides for the possibility of different choices not the necessity of making those different choices.

God does not exist within our timeline, true. He is ageless and timeless. But God created the heavens and the earth and it's inhabitants to exist within a timeline. So how could God know it's future?

Sabrewolfe, someone once used the following analogy to explain how God can exist outside of our timeline and yet see all of our timeline.

Imagine that our timeline is a filmstrip. Each instant in time is a frame of the film strip. Each frame of the filmstrip is determined by what happens/happened in the previous frame.

We are currently in one of the frames in the middle of the filmstrip. We can see the previous frames (our past) but cannot see the next frames (our future) but God is outside looking at the whole filmstrip. He sees every frame; the past frames, the present frame and the future frames are all the same to him!

Note that no frame is predetermined by God since he allows us free will and yet he knows everything that has happened/will happen.



What benefit would it be to God to create something only to know it's every move and it's destiny?
God created man for man to WANT to follow him, not because it is pre-destined that he does so.
God relinquished man's destiny to man alone, from the very beginning.


Your logic is faulty since you admit to God being ageless and timeless and not in our timeline yet suggest that God should not know what is going to happen in our timeline. This means that God needs to wait for our timeline to finish in order to see if man chooses to follow him which implies that he is in our timeline!

sabrewolfe,
I believe that God is far more complex than we think He is.
The attributes and abilities of God are far more than we mortals can understand.
God the Father and the Holy Ghost are spirits with the knowledge and power to create this very vast universe and life within it. Do you think there is anyone here who can fully contemplate that humungous ability?
I think not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Acura, I'm not saying that God is not more complex than we think He is. I didn't mean that to be taken out of context. What I was trying to explain is that He is not so complex as to be beyond our understanding of why and He does things. Through His word, through science, through nature and common sense, His reasoning is easier to understand if we would pay more attention instead of assuming something that has no bearing on our reach of comprehension. It is for that same reason that Jesus taught with parables and analogies relating to common situations during His earthly existence.

Sabrewolfe, someone once used the following analogy to explain how God can exist outside of our timeline and yet see all of our timeline.

Imagine that our timeline is a filmstrip. Each instant in time is a frame of the film strip. Each frame of the filmstrip is determined by what happens/happened in the previous frame.

We are currently in one of the frames in the middle of the filmstrip. We can see the previous frames (our past) but cannot see the next frames (our future) but God is outside looking at the whole filmstrip. He sees every frame; the past frames, the present frame and the future frames are all the same to him!

Note that no frame is predetermined by God since he allows us free will and yet he knows everything that has happened/will happen.

There is a very huge flaw within your analogy. Each frame of the film strip cannot be viewed until it is filmed.

There is a very huge flaw within your analogy. Each frame of the film strip cannot be viewed until it is filmed.

[QUOTE=elscarta; Note that no frame is predetermined by God since he allows us free will and yet he knows everything that has happened/will happen.


Hello elscarta,

Yes, isn't your analogy a tautology, i.e.. A v ~A

Hello again elscarta,

On second thought you could say that there are two different types of determinism. The one we are familiar with and the one that exists outside of time and space. This would make them distinct entities. This outcome would create a new problem of identity.

Tut

TUT317,
I think that everything is possible with God as He chooses.
AND that His identity is where ever and whenever He so wishes.
Fred

Hello Fred,

What you are asking is that does God have to uphold the laws of physics and logic?
I would say that he has to. The laws of physics and logic have applied in the past and probably will apply in the future.

This is reflected in the unchanging nature of God. In other words, God does not make it up as he goes along.

Hello Fred,

What you are asking is that does God have to uphold the laws of physics and logic?
I would say that he has to. The laws of physics and logic have applied in the past and probably will apply in the future.

This is reflected in the unchanging nature of God. In other words, God does not make it up as he goes along.

Exactly.

There is a very huge flaw within your analogy. Each frame of the film strip cannot be viewed until it is filmed.
That is correct if you are in the timeline! But God is outside the timeline. This means that God does not have to wait for time to pass to see the future.

If you insist that time needs to pass before God can see the future then you are saying that God is in the timeline.

Here is another way of looking at it. I am currently 42 years old and let us suppose that I will die when I am 100. Now imagine God is currently in the timeline with me and steps out of the timeline. How long will it take God to get to the point in time when I die?

Being outside the timeline he instantly is there even though it takes me another 58 years to get there in the timeline. Now since he is outside the timeline he can step back in the timeline anywhere so lets imagine him stepping back in the same instant he originally stepped out. For God the next 58 years have already happened since he has already been at my death in that instant that he left the timeline but for me they are still to happen!

Hi elscarta,

My earlier posting was a bit vague in relation to the problems I see with the film strip analogy. I will attempt to be a bit more precise.

Firstly, when we are talking about the film strip we are of course talking about only one piece of film.

For us the frames exist the past and present. Frames do extend into the future but we can't see what is on them. The point is that there is some future event on them, but as far as humans are concerned, for all intention purposes the film ends at the present. From our point of view we are yet to be photographed in the future. From God's point of view the future has been photographed.

I would argue that the film strip stops at the present or it doesn't. We can't have it both ways. In other words, we can't say that the future is there and not there at the same time. I don't think saying that it all depends on A POINT OF VIEW solves the problem. In other words, when we come to examine this strip in terms of identity we will run into all sorts of logical problems.

That is correct if you are in the timeline! But God is outside the timeline. This means that God does not have to wait for time to pass to see the future.

If you insist that time needs to pass before God can see the future then you are saying that God is in the timeline.

Here is another way of looking at it. I am currently 42 years old and let us suppose that I will die when I am 100. Now imagine God is currently in the timeline with me and steps out of the timeline. How long will it take God to get to the point in time when I die?

Being outside the timeline he instantly is there even though it takes me another 58 years to get there in the timeline. Now since he is outside the timeline he can step back in the timeline anywhere so lets imagine him stepping back in the same instant he originally stepped out. For God the next 58 years have already happened since he has already been at my death in that instant that he left the timeline but for me they are still to happen!

As it takes you 58 years to get there, it also does for God. God does not jump into the future. The difference in time between man and God, is that He is eternal, meaning, He always was and always will be. He does not exist in an aging timeline. For Him, what is a million years to us is but a second to Him. That's the only difference. The scale of observation. God cannot jump into a future that is not here yet. What has not happened, does not exist, until it has happened.
The bible says that God created the heavens and the earth in seven days, even though each day to Him could have been a million years to us. But even still, it took Him time to do so.

Acura,
I would like to get back to the original purpose of your thread of the devils influence in the world. What are some of the more deceptive ways do you see him influencing mankind in these current days?

I think that the devil does work in mysterious ways and some of them are through temptation.
Temptation causes we human much grief in many ways such as greed, avarice, gluttony, gelousey, hate, confusion, anger, lust. And more.
Fred